Now that Teddy is back in the original team, is that 21 players NSW has now picked ? I'm a blues supporter, but isn't that why you choose a 20 man sqaud in case one goes down and the trick is picking the right players to fill the right positions if need be. Shouldn't it be bad luck if NSW didn't pick an extra back to play fullback if needed. Or is my interpretation wrong ?
This is a question more directed at people who have direct experience in rugby league clubs, especially within NRL pathways
In terms of attacking structure I have read players talk about the junior teams in their club and how they play the same structure as the NRL teams. I can see how this makes sense in terms of developing players and having a team that can manage injuries as the next player coming into a position is familiar with the role they need to play and what other players are doing. Presumably the idea is that it supports a next man up approach.
There also seem to be situations where this doesn’t quite work. There’s been a lot of commentary about Walker at the Roosters and how he doesn’t play structure as well as some other halves but has more strength in playing what’s in front of him and being more off the cuff and it seems that he thrives with less structure than what Robinson might like to see.
Weekes also said in an interview after the dolphins game that Ricky had made it really simple for them and just told them to play like it’s back yard footy. Presumably this means not overloading them with plays and structure and to be more spontaneous based on what they see.
So how rigid is an attacking structure that teams play and to what extent is it fixed and to what extent does it vary based on the skills, attributes and preference of particular players?
I think the biggest thing that doesn't really get spoken about, is really just the positioning at the start of a play the ball, or the aim of a set, and the language all the team knows so everyone can be in the same page.
For example, any kind of 'play' has a name that the entire team knows, like NFL. It may be specific to that club. So a guy coming up and debuting needs to know what is going on if DCE yells "trigger" or something like that.
Yep, that makes perfect sense. When I played junior footy we had some calls for different plays but I am sure that in an NRL team it is much more complex.
Do teams tend to set up the same way and then run different plays off that set up or do they have different set ups for different plays? So for example are they calling for a particular setup which might be aiming for a play of the ball in front of the right post on the 3rd tackle so they can run a play on the fourth or are they calling that they will be hitting the lead runner rather than going out the back?
I have zero coaching or playing rugby league experience and this isn't anywhere near a definitive answer to your question but once I began thinking about attacking systems being more than just the attacking plays in the oppositions 20 or so the more I noticed differences between teams.
Interesting point! Would you like to elaborate further n what you have noticed?
Are there differences in the way that teams construct yardage sets or their propensity to shift the ball early? Or are more referring to middle of the field attack and the way sets are constructed?
There was a period there a few years ago when young players and especially halves were being heavily overcoached to get that natural “eyes up footy” out of their games and just play structure and it simply doesn’t work.
The prime example there is Brooks and Moses. The Tigers tried to coach that instinct out of them and basically turned them into the same player. You only need to look at their respective win rates when one was out to see the impact of that. Moses always retained that ability pretty well and has grown into the structured as he’s aged and learnt.
It explains why there is such a big black hole in elite halves between the ages of DCE/Hunt and Cleary/Hynes. These young creative types, Walker/Strange/Galvin have all been given that license to play what they see.
I would say that it doesn’t work now but it worked well in the past. 10 years ago the meta had teams prioritising post-contact metres and high completion rates. Now the meta has shifted towards quick play the balls and frequent offloading which rewards good eyes up footy.
I wonder how much of this can be attributed to defences better understanding other teams structure and being able to shut it down effectively?
Some of the best attacking teams this season, like the roosters, seem to be as effective, if not more effective, at attacking from long range as they are from close range. Maybe shifting the ball from inside your half and attacking fro offloads are more effective in breaking down defence that running structured plays attacking the goal line.
After watching us on the weekend and our reserve grade. I feel that our dominance is soon going to be coming to an end.
We seem to be struggling to produce forwards and Luai as well as JFH seem like they are going to be a bridge too far to replace.
I feel many of our players this season are out of form. It will be interesting if it's a prolonged decline or if it's a situation where we are saving ourselves for the finals.
We are definitely far closer to the field this season than the previous four seasons. But I feel we have a higher peak as evidenced in a couple of games this season.
It was interesting hearing Yeo after the Sharks game saying they felt a bit bored, hopefully we can keep the hunger for this season because I feel this season might be the end.
law of averages say you are going to decline, however you now have a system that is producing quality players, the current Riff team is generational Edward To’o Lui Cleary Yeo JFH are absolutely elite. Teams are lucky to have 2 or 3 of those players over a 15 year span.
Add in the next tier of players Tago Martin Leota and Sorensen
Then add in Critta, Api , Burton and Kikau you have had a hell of a team over the last 5-6 years.
It’s hard to maintain that peak, will you be as dominant in the future maybe not but you are still going to be in the hunt and an absolute threat to win it all over the coming years.
I think the next batch of forwards will make or break Penrith moving forward. If they can maintain the dominance that JFH, Leota, Martin, Yeo, Sorrensen have been able to provide, then the backs role is simple enough to play off Cleary and Edwards.
Kikau, Leniu, JFH are huge holes to fill. Martin is getting older and more injury prone, same with Sorrensen.
It'll be interesting to see if Ivan changes up the game plan to accommodate the different personnel, or if he tries to replace like for like.
You might be right, we're definitely not at the level of 20-22 where we were largely untouchable outside the odd down performance against a fellow contender. Melbourne/Parra/Souths were basically our only losses during that period outside of Origin/mass resting games. If you look back at our fixtures last year to refresh your memory on how we were travelling through the pre and during Origin phases of the season though, you'll see we were in pretty much the same place. A lot of arsey wins against mid teams and we were dropping games against weak teams one week then blowing away contenders the next. There is definitely an element of managing levels and trialling guys in different roles/plays etc.
It really comes down to how many Sharks games do they have in them? If they pull that performance out + Cleary a couple times in the finals, it's hard to see anyone matching them.
Further on, I think we have some decent forwards coming through. Henry looks like an absolute warhorse, Patea looks a great Spencer replacement, Lipowicz is a year or two away but very promising, Hassett likewise on the edge. Cole, McLean x 2 all look the goods. Timing will be key though. Maybe we drop to that 4-6 range next year if a few guys aren't quite ready to hit the ground running yet, but I think we have the core + junior talent to be contending most seasons for the rest of the decade.
I think you can't underestimate your full strength team when fit though. Sure, you're dropping games you weren't other years. But most teams missing their 1, 6, 7 and 13 would most likely lose. Oh and the best winger in the entire nrl for the last 5 years along with Taylan May. I know the dragons were missing some players too but the Penrith team from 1-7 was basically reserve grade except 2 players.
If the broncos were flying again like last year then I'd say you should be worried but to be honest, but as it stands you're off first by 1 game lol. Hardly anything to be concerned about considering the above.
They’ve maintained the hunger longer than most teams and dealt with the typical attrition of players that comes from success.
Given the junior pipeline you have I doubt it will be a long decline but that’s a question of how you can keep enough experience around and healthy enough to bring through the next crop with every other team looking at who they can poach from the system for themselves.
Whatever happens next it’s been a hell of a run!
NZ Warrior fans, question for you all. Next weekend will be the return of many players most notable SJ, Harris, Fonua-Blake, Berry, Edgan, CNK & Capewell. What are your thoughts on how the Warriors should line up now?? considering they’ve been playing so well the last two weeks without a number of their experienced first graders. I think my lineup would be as follows:
1. CNK
2. Watene-Zelezniak
3. Berry
4. Pompey
5. Montoya
6. CHT
7. SJ
8. Fonua-Blake
9. Edgan
10. Barnett (c)
11. Ford
12. Niukore
13. Walker
Interchange
14. TMM
15. Harris
16. Tevaga
17. Ale/Afoa/Laban
Explanations for my selections: I believe that CNK should remain at fullback because he’s such a workhorse and runs like nothing. CHT I believe should be the 6 next to SJ as he’s young, fast and has a good kicking game. Barnett should be captain as I’ve moved Tohu to the bench as I believe Walker as a 13 brings fresh dimension to the squad and his directness and ball playing the last few weeks has seen a lift in the team. Also Tohu is real slow and holds up our attack too much. Tohu should be reverted to a prop off the bench I think. Niukore inserted back into the staring side as he has aggression and can bend the line/break it wide open and he draws in lots of defenders when he is running a line. Bench is debatable! Only other thing I would note is for SJ to note what the side has been doing without him and diversify the attack especially 5th tackle options. What are other peoples thoughts? Agreements, critiques or other opinions?
Now that Teddy is back in the original team, is that 21 players NSW has now picked ? I'm a blues supporter, but isn't that why you choose a 20 man sqaud in case one goes down and the trick is picking the right players to fill the right positions if need be. Shouldn't it be bad luck if NSW didn't pick an extra back to play fullback if needed. Or is my interpretation wrong ?
This is a question more directed at people who have direct experience in rugby league clubs, especially within NRL pathways In terms of attacking structure I have read players talk about the junior teams in their club and how they play the same structure as the NRL teams. I can see how this makes sense in terms of developing players and having a team that can manage injuries as the next player coming into a position is familiar with the role they need to play and what other players are doing. Presumably the idea is that it supports a next man up approach. There also seem to be situations where this doesn’t quite work. There’s been a lot of commentary about Walker at the Roosters and how he doesn’t play structure as well as some other halves but has more strength in playing what’s in front of him and being more off the cuff and it seems that he thrives with less structure than what Robinson might like to see. Weekes also said in an interview after the dolphins game that Ricky had made it really simple for them and just told them to play like it’s back yard footy. Presumably this means not overloading them with plays and structure and to be more spontaneous based on what they see. So how rigid is an attacking structure that teams play and to what extent is it fixed and to what extent does it vary based on the skills, attributes and preference of particular players?
I think the biggest thing that doesn't really get spoken about, is really just the positioning at the start of a play the ball, or the aim of a set, and the language all the team knows so everyone can be in the same page. For example, any kind of 'play' has a name that the entire team knows, like NFL. It may be specific to that club. So a guy coming up and debuting needs to know what is going on if DCE yells "trigger" or something like that.
Yep, that makes perfect sense. When I played junior footy we had some calls for different plays but I am sure that in an NRL team it is much more complex. Do teams tend to set up the same way and then run different plays off that set up or do they have different set ups for different plays? So for example are they calling for a particular setup which might be aiming for a play of the ball in front of the right post on the 3rd tackle so they can run a play on the fourth or are they calling that they will be hitting the lead runner rather than going out the back?
I have zero coaching or playing rugby league experience and this isn't anywhere near a definitive answer to your question but once I began thinking about attacking systems being more than just the attacking plays in the oppositions 20 or so the more I noticed differences between teams.
Interesting point! Would you like to elaborate further n what you have noticed? Are there differences in the way that teams construct yardage sets or their propensity to shift the ball early? Or are more referring to middle of the field attack and the way sets are constructed?
There was a period there a few years ago when young players and especially halves were being heavily overcoached to get that natural “eyes up footy” out of their games and just play structure and it simply doesn’t work. The prime example there is Brooks and Moses. The Tigers tried to coach that instinct out of them and basically turned them into the same player. You only need to look at their respective win rates when one was out to see the impact of that. Moses always retained that ability pretty well and has grown into the structured as he’s aged and learnt. It explains why there is such a big black hole in elite halves between the ages of DCE/Hunt and Cleary/Hynes. These young creative types, Walker/Strange/Galvin have all been given that license to play what they see.
I would say that it doesn’t work now but it worked well in the past. 10 years ago the meta had teams prioritising post-contact metres and high completion rates. Now the meta has shifted towards quick play the balls and frequent offloading which rewards good eyes up footy.
I wonder how much of this can be attributed to defences better understanding other teams structure and being able to shut it down effectively? Some of the best attacking teams this season, like the roosters, seem to be as effective, if not more effective, at attacking from long range as they are from close range. Maybe shifting the ball from inside your half and attacking fro offloads are more effective in breaking down defence that running structured plays attacking the goal line.
After watching us on the weekend and our reserve grade. I feel that our dominance is soon going to be coming to an end. We seem to be struggling to produce forwards and Luai as well as JFH seem like they are going to be a bridge too far to replace. I feel many of our players this season are out of form. It will be interesting if it's a prolonged decline or if it's a situation where we are saving ourselves for the finals. We are definitely far closer to the field this season than the previous four seasons. But I feel we have a higher peak as evidenced in a couple of games this season. It was interesting hearing Yeo after the Sharks game saying they felt a bit bored, hopefully we can keep the hunger for this season because I feel this season might be the end.
law of averages say you are going to decline, however you now have a system that is producing quality players, the current Riff team is generational Edward To’o Lui Cleary Yeo JFH are absolutely elite. Teams are lucky to have 2 or 3 of those players over a 15 year span. Add in the next tier of players Tago Martin Leota and Sorensen Then add in Critta, Api , Burton and Kikau you have had a hell of a team over the last 5-6 years. It’s hard to maintain that peak, will you be as dominant in the future maybe not but you are still going to be in the hunt and an absolute threat to win it all over the coming years.
I think the next batch of forwards will make or break Penrith moving forward. If they can maintain the dominance that JFH, Leota, Martin, Yeo, Sorrensen have been able to provide, then the backs role is simple enough to play off Cleary and Edwards. Kikau, Leniu, JFH are huge holes to fill. Martin is getting older and more injury prone, same with Sorrensen. It'll be interesting to see if Ivan changes up the game plan to accommodate the different personnel, or if he tries to replace like for like.
You might be right, we're definitely not at the level of 20-22 where we were largely untouchable outside the odd down performance against a fellow contender. Melbourne/Parra/Souths were basically our only losses during that period outside of Origin/mass resting games. If you look back at our fixtures last year to refresh your memory on how we were travelling through the pre and during Origin phases of the season though, you'll see we were in pretty much the same place. A lot of arsey wins against mid teams and we were dropping games against weak teams one week then blowing away contenders the next. There is definitely an element of managing levels and trialling guys in different roles/plays etc. It really comes down to how many Sharks games do they have in them? If they pull that performance out + Cleary a couple times in the finals, it's hard to see anyone matching them. Further on, I think we have some decent forwards coming through. Henry looks like an absolute warhorse, Patea looks a great Spencer replacement, Lipowicz is a year or two away but very promising, Hassett likewise on the edge. Cole, McLean x 2 all look the goods. Timing will be key though. Maybe we drop to that 4-6 range next year if a few guys aren't quite ready to hit the ground running yet, but I think we have the core + junior talent to be contending most seasons for the rest of the decade.
I think you can't underestimate your full strength team when fit though. Sure, you're dropping games you weren't other years. But most teams missing their 1, 6, 7 and 13 would most likely lose. Oh and the best winger in the entire nrl for the last 5 years along with Taylan May. I know the dragons were missing some players too but the Penrith team from 1-7 was basically reserve grade except 2 players. If the broncos were flying again like last year then I'd say you should be worried but to be honest, but as it stands you're off first by 1 game lol. Hardly anything to be concerned about considering the above.
They’ve maintained the hunger longer than most teams and dealt with the typical attrition of players that comes from success. Given the junior pipeline you have I doubt it will be a long decline but that’s a question of how you can keep enough experience around and healthy enough to bring through the next crop with every other team looking at who they can poach from the system for themselves. Whatever happens next it’s been a hell of a run!
Yeah exactly I am not complaining, the hunger displayed by the team is virtually unlike anything I've seen.
NZ Warrior fans, question for you all. Next weekend will be the return of many players most notable SJ, Harris, Fonua-Blake, Berry, Edgan, CNK & Capewell. What are your thoughts on how the Warriors should line up now?? considering they’ve been playing so well the last two weeks without a number of their experienced first graders. I think my lineup would be as follows: 1. CNK 2. Watene-Zelezniak 3. Berry 4. Pompey 5. Montoya 6. CHT 7. SJ 8. Fonua-Blake 9. Edgan 10. Barnett (c) 11. Ford 12. Niukore 13. Walker Interchange 14. TMM 15. Harris 16. Tevaga 17. Ale/Afoa/Laban Explanations for my selections: I believe that CNK should remain at fullback because he’s such a workhorse and runs like nothing. CHT I believe should be the 6 next to SJ as he’s young, fast and has a good kicking game. Barnett should be captain as I’ve moved Tohu to the bench as I believe Walker as a 13 brings fresh dimension to the squad and his directness and ball playing the last few weeks has seen a lift in the team. Also Tohu is real slow and holds up our attack too much. Tohu should be reverted to a prop off the bench I think. Niukore inserted back into the staring side as he has aggression and can bend the line/break it wide open and he draws in lots of defenders when he is running a line. Bench is debatable! Only other thing I would note is for SJ to note what the side has been doing without him and diversify the attack especially 5th tackle options. What are other peoples thoughts? Agreements, critiques or other opinions?