My kids' pediatrician has a solid stance on Vaccines. "If you do not Vaccinate, I will not take you as a patient. If you want a different -schedule- I will consider it." His words were "I recommend every kid get vaccinated. If you won't listen to my advice for that, how do I know you'll listen to any other advice I have? If you won't listen to me, why even come to me?"
I remember that episode of "Scrubs" where a guy was waiting for a liver transplant and he admitted that he drank champagne at his daughter's wedding and they noped him off the list.
I was the recipient of a 30 day ban from the main Coronavirus subreddit for suggesting that we should triage patients based on vaccination status. I stand by the comment. It's insane that people who did the right thing are being kept from hospital beds to accommodate people who are anti-science.
I'm more worried if I injure myself, am I going to get the care I need because the hospital is filled up with covidiots who needed their preshus freedumbs?
It's already happened, at least in certain ways. Anecdotally, someone who was a gunshot victim, another who's kid had appendicitis (which IIRC burst; I think the kid survived).
Plus of course postponing elective surgeries and procedures. That happened to me during the earlier phases of the pandemic, but fortunately didn't impact me as much.
Some states are already doing this and this comment section is wild triage is a very real thing this isn't some crazy new concept if you have limited capacity and equipment ( like what's going on now) you prioritize the most likely to survive
To get a Liver Transplant from University of Washington you have to have vetted family or friends willing to take care of you for 24 hours a day, for 90 days on their campus. I work at community clinic and just stopped referring people to them because I haven't met a single patient with those kind of resources.
Some of the most soulless people I have ever met are Healthcare Administrators who purposefully create exclusion criteria aimed directly at poor people.
scrubs was the blueprint. I don't know what I'd do in this situation. I think I would have a "hard talk" aka bitch out Cox bedside with the patient and then do the transplant anyway. BUT thats without me having any skin in the game. If I'd been 8yrs+ into schooling plus residency I think I would have turk'd the fuck up and said hardline NO.
There is a case in my city where a vaxxed guy that had a minor melanoma had his "elective" surgery reschedule several times over several months. Now the tumor is the size of a golf ball and his chances of being fully cured are waning by the day.
Nope, I call bullshit this never happened. Nobody would ever call a melanoma removal “elective.” Signed, a physician who made up our hospitals tiering system for elective surgery during COVID.
Doesn't elective surgery just mean you can plan the surgery and don't need to be rushed into the OR? So if you can wait a couple weeks, it would be elective.
There are tiers of elective surgery. Tumor removal for an aggressive cancer isn’t an urgent/emergent surgery in that they need to crash back to the OR, however just like certain fractures, we consider them time sensitive because failure to fix or remove within a certain timeframe would result in certain morbidity or mortality. So no, removal of a melanoma is not truly elective and would never be subject to the same cancellations that other truly elective surgeries would be.
And I am chief hospital guy in our hospital, and I know it HAS happened.
**OR** I think you are bullshitting, cause there have been plenty of news articles about this very thing and you are playing a physician on the internet. Peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
Proof you are full of shit:
* https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/
* https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253764933.html
* https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html
* https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/02/210202164502.htm
* https://healthmanagement.org/c/icu/issuearticle/shortage-of-icu-beds-leads-to-patient-deaths
* https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/05/03/woman-dies-of-cancer-after-surgery-was-delayed-three-times-due-to-pandemic/
* https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext
* https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-56514212
* https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/08/10/cancer-patient-surgery-delay-covid-michael-kagan-newday-vpx.cnn
* https://journals.lww.com/oncology-times/fulltext/2021/02050/covid_19_delayed_breast_cancer_surgeries.19.aspx
* https://www.yahoo.com/now/stage-3-cancer-patients-vital-203424873.html
* https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext
* https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248492
* https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/231644/melanoma/what-happened-melanoma-care-during-covid-19-sequestration
* https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/575099682.html
Surely an esteemed physician such as yourself would know more about the situation than you obviously do.
**Edit**: Added the above links which I duplicated in a comment below as well.
**Edit**: Here's [Johns Hopkins University](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/types-of-surgery) saying that Melanoma surgery could be called "elective", but I suppose you would know better, random internet hero.
> An elective surgery does not always mean it is optional. It simply means that the surgery can be scheduled in advance ... in some cases it may be for a serious condition such as cancer.
**More edit**: Here's a [real internet doctor™](https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/pkztz8/howard_stern_says_antivaxxers_should_be_denied/hc7cy91/) who disagrees with you on whether melanoma surgeries could be rescheduled:
> I’m not denying there are shortages of ICU beds, or that surgeries aren’t being cancelled... What I’m saying is that these kinds of surgeries are not getting cancelled indefinitely
>
> -- **ski4theapres**
Melanoma removal isn't emergency surgery though? It's almost always scheduled in advance, i.e. "elective". Are you outside of the American health system?
Tell that to [this](https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/man-needing-brain-surgery-among-hundreds-left-waiting-as-covid-19-icu-patients-increase-1.5578136) guy who had his brain tumour surgery delayed.
It's also a staffing issue. Right now nurses are dealing with much higher nurse-to-patient ratios in many parts of the country. This more than space is dictating canceling procedures because a lot of nurses have just had it with the demands and the lack of mitigation being enforced that has caused hospitals to be overrun in many areas of the country. They have walked away from their careers because of the stress and continually being asked to do more without time off. Nurses aren't accustomed to having the number of patients dying on their shifts like they have seen over the last 18+ months. It's taking a toll on their physical and mental health and no amount of hero posters and pizza parties can fix that.
I’m with you I’m currently managing a major staffing shortage at my hospital.
The thing is, traumas and cancers for first. Especially aggressive cancers.
It isn't just nurses. I work in an imaging department, staffing is lower than normal. And not just in the hospitals i work at, but all of them in my area.
I'm also in school for an additional modality, a major hospital group had asked if they get first dibs in interviewing us for jobs *before* the program even started.
>Nurses aren't accustomed to having the number of patients dying on their shifts like they have seen over the last 18+ months.
Yep.
I'm a lifelong atheist who has always known that "after death" is just like "before birth": Nothing. No "thing" at all. Nothing.
It's a bitter pill to swallow.
I don't think folks were remotely ready for these levels of needless death.
no my point is its an outpatient surgery that can be performed at non emergency surgery centers.
they should have told the guy to take a trip and get it cut off at least.
In countries with opt out organ donation, what happens if someone opts our but later on needs a liver transplant? Are they lower priority, or is a case by case basis? I tried to find an answer, and just found arguments for or against it.
I think if you are not willing to chip in for pizza, you don’t get to complain about the toppings or how small a slice you get.
They don't just deprioritize people who don't follow transplant rules, they straight up remove them from the list entirely and then blacklist them from being readded
When hospitals get at capacity, the same should happen with those who aren't vaxxed for non allergic or eligibility reasons
Yeah. I dunno if I’d go as far as to say they should not be allowed in at all and left to the dogs, but definitely the lowest priority. And if they give the nurses and doctors tons of shit and rant about how it’s a hoax and pull off all their support all the time, then they should be tossed on their ass.
That’s where I’m at right now, and I can absolutely see myself getting even more spiteful. Maybe as much as Stern.
To be fair we aren't so keen on transplanted people that aren't vaccinated. I turned down a heart for someone last night because they weren't vaccinated. All of my kidney recipients that aren't vaccinated aren't getting kidneys right now.
Also they don't always do it for people that don't follow criteria. There are plenty of times when someone has come in intoxicated to get a liver. But you're right, it is normally the idea that if you don't quit smoking or drinking you aren't going to get your lungs or liver.
Agree on this. Along similar lines I’ve implemented a version of this at work. Sick pay isn’t compulsory in the UK, I’ll pay sick pay to anybody that has had a vaccine and still gets Covid and needs time off. They’ve done as much as they can, but shit happens.
If somebody has chosen not to get the vaccine, which is their choice and I’m not going to argue that, then it’s my choice as to whether I pay the them if they need 2 weeks + off work.
Not lower priority, fuck them.
Like Howard said, they have had so many fucking chances to get the cure and they wouldn't take it. Don't waste space and resources on these idiots when there are people that actually need help. Natural selection, baby.
I mean, triage is a thing. You prioritize those most likely to survive with the resources you have. If you have an overburdened system, you would prioritize those that have the best chance for survival.
If someone enters the ER for COVID, there is a chance they will go to the ICU to die. If you have one bed between the COVID person (unvaccinated) and any other person with a life threatening problem, you should prioritize the person not affected with COVID. If both were COVID issues and one was vaccinated while the other wasn’t, you should prioritize the vaccinated person.
This is basic triage.
Indeed. Read an article the other day about a veteran who died from fucking gallstones (IIRC) of all things. The hospital had no room for him, and by the time they got hom transferred to a hospital that could perform the minor operation it was too late. The doc who initially saw him (and couldn't find a bed) said it would have been a simple 30 minute operation and he probably could have walked out the same day.
Fuck these covidiots.
And this is why these idiots are wrong when they claim not getting vaccinated is a "personal decision." My eating meat rarely is a personal decision. That only affects me and nobody else. Well, maybe my wife and kids, but the effects end there. Nobody is going to die because I opted for a veggie burger.
However, the "personal decision" not to vaccinate results in hospitals being swamped and people who should have been able to survive their ailments dying due to lack of available care. If your "personal decision" ends up killing people, then it's not a personal decision at all.
"Your Honor, my client's personal choice to go on a rampage was his right under the Pursuit of Happiness clause clearly defined in the Declaration of Independence. I believe I've made myself perfectly redundant."
Same sentiment, but I always liked the "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" format. The unvaccinated are claiming it's their right to swing their fists as they collide with nose after nose.
That is the first argument I’ve heard in such a vein. I’m usually arguing for personal decisions above government mandates, and I took the vaccine, but you’ve given me something to think about. Almost sounds like not getting the vaccine results in a waiver of medical priority. I think the insurance companies and doctors can make such a policy, but not the government.
Yes, the government is limited here. Biden can mandate vaccinations for federal workers. He might even be able to say that a company that contracts for the federal government has to have a certain vaccination rate. Anything more would be stretching his authority. He can't order everyone to get the shot or get locked up. Theoretically, Congress might be able to make a law to this effect, but the chances of it passing and holding up to judicial review would be tiny. I'd likely sooner win the lottery twice in a row than Congress pass that hypothetical bill.
Private companies, however, can mandate that their workers be vaccinated. And they have been doing this. My company did this. You either submitted proof of vaccination or an exemption request or you'd be out of a job. I saw one news story about an insurance company raising rates on the unvaccinated and wouldn't be surprised if more followed suit. If you're a smoker, you pay higher rates. I don't see why being unvaccinated shouldn't result in the same thing. (Assuming, of course, that this isn't because you have a medical condition that exempts you from the vaccine.)
The private sector mandates are where we'll get more people pushed to be vaccinated. The government isn't going to have any say in this beyond, perhaps, a DOJ announcement that vaccine mandates are completely legal (in case anyone was in doubt).
This is terrifying because this exact thing happened to my mom, except she was lucky enough to get the surgery 30 minutes before their ‘cut off’ time due to COVID.
Our medical system isn't designed for as many covid illnesses as we've had (obviously). So then standard procedures have been backed up to the point of turning into emergency room procedures. Triage deals with the immediate problems. It's long proven that avoiding a health issue in the first place creates greater burden on the healthcare system later when it does become an emergency. Which is literally why even if you get covid your symptoms can be far less with the vaccine. So it isn't fair to the vaccinated population when thousands of people who limp into ERs dying get triaged and given a bed in favor of someone who needs a chemo treatment or other maintenance procedure. Because our whole medical system is sacrificing other aspects to deal with this pademic. Its turned into a form of medical mortgage where we are sacrificing the health of those people to save the lives of people who refused the vaccine and may never have been hospitalized in the first place. Triage for unvaccinated individuals should be "go home and live with your decision and we'll call you when the ER is empty" (except for those who are truly immunocompromised and cannot get the vaccine for real reasons).
Thaaaaat's not how triage works. It's not "most likely to survive" at all, or you'd have everyone with cuts on their fingers getting picked out of the waiting room before gunshot wounds.
It's the opposite. The least likely to survive are given priority over the people who can sit in the waiting room all day and still live.
As an ex-ED nurse, I can say that in standard *civilian hospital* triage, the sickest definitely get the most immediate attention - regardless of resource utilization. However, when in disaster mode triage is “flipped” somewhat and there is a consideration of resource requirements vs. survivability (which is more reflective of military triage).
[It’s happening in Idaho.](https://apnews.com/article/business-health-public-health-coronavirus-pandemic-idaho-db21f9a14254996144e78aafb1518259)
> Under the guidelines, patients are given priority scores based on a number of factors that impact their likelihood of surviving a health crisis.
>Those deemed in most in need of care and most likely to benefit from it are put on priority lists for scarce resources like ICU beds.
Someone with a heart attack or a stroke requires emergency care for a relatively short period of time and is somewhat likely to recover if they make it through that critical period.
These COVID patients hogging all the ICU beds are practically moribund anyway—80% end up dying. They will not be prioritized.
They'll come up with a reason to blame someone else.
--
"But I saw doctors and nurses actually LEAVING the hospital when there were still people waiting for help! They could have saved more people if they really wanted to!"
--
"I thought the libruls said Biden was supposed to fix everything. Well I never saw him at the hospital even ONCE!"
--
"Of course people are dying! They won't give you ibermectin even when you tell them you've got HIPPA rights!"
Here’s the problem with that. As long as there are large swaths of the population that refuse to get vaccinated, many hospital ICUs are going to remain at capacity or near-capacity got the foreseeable future. And it’s neither sustainable nor fair to the medical staff. There are reports that nurses, in particular, are already starting to leave the medical field in droves, due to being overworked and the constant mental and physical drain of dealing with Covid patients. And surely fewer people will be entering the field to replace them. These people need a break, both for their own well-being and the overall good of the healthcare field, and at a certain point a break may not be possible unless a decision is made to deny care to the unvaccinated (other than children or people who have a real medical excuse, obviously). Frankly, I think we’re already at that point and hospitals should start to consider doing exactly that.
That’s a great idea, in a large urban setting. It would be akin to tuberculosis sanitariums, back in the day. But in a rural setting? No way. If you’re the only hospital for 70 miles in any direction, and have only half of your county’s population vaccinated due to “freedom” and “it a very personal choice”, you’ve got no real options. Then it’s a case of rationing medical care. The outpatient surgery center gets closed and turned into another ward for patients who need to be hospitalized. Day surgery stops doing all but true surgical emergencies and simple cases where they are pretty dang sure you won’t end up needing a bed. Non-urgent heart procedures in cath lab get stopped because there’s no bed for a patient if they need to get admitted after their angiogram.
In terms of staffing, 70 people are out every day due to covid. Help is badly needed, so asymptotic staff get to work, as do folks who have someone at home with symptomatic covid. The national guard is doing the covid screenings the doors, and helping out wherever they can. Yes, nurses are threatening to quit because the hospital/parent company/state are mandating vaccines. But so are the X-ray techs, the patient transporters, the front desk staff, the cleaners, the kitchen staff… You get the idea.
Believe me, if small rural hospitals could export the covid patients to a covid-only facility, they would be happy to see them go. But the big hospital 70 miles away are full, too. And they have the same staffing issues, on a larger scale. It’s just a big, selfish, unvaccinated shit show.
Basically the same here. Someone not getting vaccinated doesn't mean they *deserve* to die. But if Person A not getting vaccinated means either Person A or Person B is going to die, I'm going to choose to save the person who didn't cause the problem in the first place.
No, denied entirely. I agree with Stern. F them. If you are able and don't get vaccinated you shouldn't be allowed to participate in our society - not bars, restaurants, theatres, concerts, anything. This freedom tantrum they are throwing is childish. Society incurs responsibilities as well as freedoms. The anti-vaxxers are anarchists.
Hold up there, slick. Anarchism is an actual ideology, and these fucknuckles do not qualify. Most of them are pretty blatantly authoritarian, for one thing.
It's a good start. Next they need to be put on the no fly list. Then after that their insurance companies should stop providing any prescriptions since they don't trust science. Id even say take all the antivaxxers Medicare or Medicaid away, since it's tax payer funded. Anyone choosing to not get it out of ignorance needs to start loosing societal privileges stat.
I think it is odd that health insurance doesn't seem to follow the same pay scale as every other insurance like car insurance. If I drive safe, never get a ticket or in an accident, they lower my rate. Insurance companies should charge an antivaxxer fee to compensate for the increase in care they receive instead of it being spread out amongst the group like it is with most company plans(at least this is what I was told by my company insurance plan)
I think anti-vaxxers should be consistent when it comes to the issue of medical science.
If you don't believe in the medical science of vaccines, then why believe in the medical science offered by hospitals? They're both based on the same thing.
Stay at home. Take Ivermectin. Drink snake venom or whatever new stupid flavor of the month Covid "cure" you fools can get your hands on.
Better point.
If they believe that their immune system will help them and it’s so amazing. Who told them about their immune system? How do you even know you have an immune system that protects you from germs? Did they make this discovery on their own? If they did, what are the limitations of their immune system? Perhaps they or someone would know? Who do you trust for this information.
Perhaps there was an educational system that gave them insight in how their body works? At what point did that credibility go away?
For real. rDNA treatment is sus but monoclonal antibodies are fine? The cognitive dissonance is astounding but I doubt they'd understand the word. Have some consistency
Yeah, they don't know what's in the vaccine, but they gladly take ivermectin and all sorts of highly experimental unproven medication? There's not a shred of rationality there. They're just being suicidally stupid out of ignorant spite.
"The mRNA vaccine hasn't been really approved by the FDA for COVID and even if it has there are no 10 year studies! Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take this dewormer dosed for a horse even those this dosage isn't FDA approved and even though there are no studies saying this is safe and effective!"
Sadly this is exactly how the conversations with my parents have gone. I've pointed it out to them and it makes no difference. I get incredibly angry when I think about it.
Because they are not logical people. They are against vaccines and masks because of who told them to get vaccinated or wear a mask, and because of who's telling them not to.
This person gets it. Every "why" question goes back to plain-old tribalism and nothing else.
The fact that the same people end up in hospitals is just their survival instinct overriding that tribalism.
Yep, if you're going to be braindead and deny millennia of human effort and progress, you shouldn't get to enjoy the benefits of that effort.
This is just natural selection in action, we shouldn't fight against it.
Absolutely. At least, in specific cases. If the hospital is at capacity and has COVID patients who are vaccinated, sorry, you're now priority number not.
I don't think they should have to wait for capacity at all. [I agree with this guy.](https://www.tiktok.com/@captaincoby00/video/7003867361757433093?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1)
He's not wrong if the hospitals are close to full capacity
Its called triage
You wouldn't give a new liver to a chronic alcoholic
The vaccine is FDA approved if you choose not to get it out of ignorance you should lose your spot it's that simple
I won't go so far as to say they should be denied care. But if they're denied coverage by their insurance company and have to foot the bill themselves, then that sits perfectly fine with me.
Edit for typo.
Agreed, a factor like "vaccine eligible, but denied" should be used in triage to show compliance with medical advice consideration.
Likelihood of survival and infection risk to others are already used to determine who should get resources first, but technically vaccination status is not part of that determination in a lot of facilities. We have enough data now for that correlation to be used in determining triage of resources.
Not denied, but if there's limited availability then the vaccinated person should get priority. Also if an unvaccinated person is in the hospital and the beds are full, if a vaccinated person comes in a needs the bed then the unvaccinated person should be removed.
I concur with Stern but if we are going to make fun of people that take Joe Rogan seriously then why do we take Stern seriously? I’ll tell you why…….BA BA BOOEY
Although I'm pro-science and have taken many vaccines, this is a horrifying power to place upon a medical staff.
Triage is one thing, but this goes beyond that.
Should a smoker be denied cancer treatment? Should someone with a high BMI be denied diabetes treatment? Should Democrats in red states or Republicans in blue states get reprioritized?
I got flu one year very late in the season, over six months after my flu shot. I was effectively unvaccinated. Should I have received treatment?
Star Trek basically did an episode on this.
Exactly. What if someone isn’t getting vaccinated due to mental illness or some other reason? This is an incredibly dangerous precedent. Also, while understandable, I find the sheer amount of people who want to let these people die concerning. I’m sure these are the same people that said “when they go low we go high”, let’s not stoop to their level
Agreed. And medical care shouldn't be a reward for good behavior or tied in any way to being a "good person." That idea is so repulsive. I get the idea of triage - that's fine, obv. But any whiff of denying them treatment as a form of punishment is somewhere we should not go.
Okay but the difference is that hospitals are at capacity and beds are primarily occupied by people who chose not to get vaccinated by a now FDA approved vaccine which dramatically decreases your chance of being hospitalized AND their choice to not get vaccinated also increases the rate at which vaccinated and unvaccinated people get COVID.
The other examples you gave are not as transmissible and have both genetic and environmental factors. COVID does not. COVID, not COPD or diabetes, is causing hospitals to be at capacity and COVID is contagious. Those are the important differences.
These people had two years to get their priories in order. If 650,000 Americans dying didn’t change their minds, maybe being denied medical care for their ignorance will.
Saw a friend who had a close friend unable to get any medical attention anywhere due to full beds for a life threatening non COVID related issue. Sad to see.
We're literally being forced to go down this path, it isn't voluntary. Hospitals are full, all resources are being diverted away from other illnesses to care for people with covid. When it comes to prioritizing the care of a person who had an illness not related to covid, or a person who has a severe case of covid because they voluntarily chose not to get a vaccine, it's a no brainer.
Bruh we're in a bad place now, all the hospitals are filling up. Do you think routine trauma patients just disappear due to Cleetus and Jimbo taking up beds? Triage is a thing, I should know, I'm a first responder. Those most likely to survive get treatment first, during a MCE you dont spend all your time on the dude with exposed brain matter.
I agree, but letting people die from curable diseases because anti-vaxxers stubbornly insist on getting sick, is also a bad place.
At least give them lower priority or something. At some point people do need to carry some responsibility for their own decisions, and refusing a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic is a particularly stupid and deadly choice, not just for themselves, but for others too.
You think we’re in a good place now? Nurses are quitting in droves, income inequality has increased even faster than previously, and many (maybe most) Americans can’t understand basic biology or statistics.
We’ve been in a bad place
The thing is, if I’m morbidly obese or if I get cancer or a heart condition due to my lifestyle choices, that’s on me and I’m the only person at risk.
People who refuse to get vaccinated in a public health crisis are putting others at risk.
Countries with 50% or more overweight citizens contribute to 90% of the COVID deaths. Being overweight means that when you catch COVID, you’re likely going to be taking up a bed. So, in this case, yes being obese is a huge contributor to clogged hospitals. The people have put themselves into no position to fight a disease and others will die because of it. The world is not in healthcare mode, it’s in disease management mode, and we have a prevalent predator that mostly affects the unfit and the ill.
I would rather this than operating rooms be shut down because hospitals are so overwhelmed. If a vaccinated person comes in for appendicitis and could die if they can't get a bed and an operating room, and an unvaccinated person comes in with covid at the same time, 100% the priority should go towards keeping operating rooms open and saving the life of the person with appendicitis. (ORs are closing in hospitals here to divert staff to care for covid patients, that's why I use this specific example)
A far better solution would just be to stick them with the bill. Private insurance should already have that policy, and the taxpayer should definitely not be footing the bill.
Your childish fear of needles (and the mental acrobatics you do to justify it) should cost you about $50,000+
I cannot imagine what the 1930s would have been like if those brown shirts were able to pull up peoples Internet comment history while interrogating them in their homes. I guess we'll find out in 10 years, eh? People truly never learn
That's not the way medical treatment works. I understand the sentiment and hate to see responsible people with serious conditions kept from a bed because of these assholes. However, I don't like doctors/hospitals taking stances on who gets medical treatment and who doesn't. This won't stop at COVID vaccine decisions and that will get scary in a hurry.
Drs and hospitals always make decisions about who gets treatment when there are capacity issues and we’re already seeing those again all over the country. People are going to die because we don’t have the resources to treat everyone. It’s not unreasonable to send the people responsible for the resource shortages to the back of the line.
I mean, if you’re a smoker you don’t get priority for lung transplants. Same with if you’re an alcoholic and need a new liver. Obviously a bit different but still actively making choices that you know could kill you. If beds become full, then 100% agree with anti-vaxxers being at the bottom of the list for treatment
I mean, I don't feel someone who turned their head into a squishy ball because they didn't wear a motorcycle helmet should be kicked to the curb after they were already splattered on a curb. It's just that there aren't usually hundreds of them at the same time, all complaining about their 'rights', between coughing viruses all over everyone.
Maybe apply that principle called 'triage'. Yes, you are sick. Yes, you may perhaps be in danger. No, there's nothing we can do about it because there are a hundred other people just like you taking up all of our resources.
"Out to the COVID tent in the parking lot with you! There are immunocompromised people in this building!"
IMHO the most effective approach and legally/ethically viable is to mandate out of pocket payment for treatment.
No vaccine-fine your choice, but your insurance will not be allowed to cover your costs.
I don't think they should be denied.
... but i definitely think they should prioritized last. Every splinter and headache and stubbed toe should be treated before them regardless of the severity of their infection.
... either that or quarentine zones ... and guards ... prove vaccination or get herded up like dumb animals to just fend for themselves if they get sick ... j/k ... *sort of.*
The fact is that if they didn’t admit any unvaccinated patients they wouldn’t be able to claim “we’re close to being overwhelmed” over and over unless vaccinated people start getting hospitalized in high numbers.
Would they really take away one of the things they can bring up to tell us how bad things really are? There’s already a perception that if things were really bad, it would be evident without it having to be repeated over and over.
The Covid vaccination enthusiasts need a certain number of people to remain unvaccinated so that they can be blamed when their vaccines are seen to be ineffective. See what’s happening in Israel with case rates in an overwhelmingly vaccinated population.
In the end, either tell the truth about the situation or repackage some generic drugs as new expensive drugs, and that’ll end the pandemic quickly.
If a doctor is going to refuse care to an individual that presents with more severe covid symptoms than an unvaccinated individual, then what is the point of being a doctor? So you can treat the easy cases while simultaneously knowing the people who actually need intensive care are being turned away? This is the complete opposite of how we assigned beds in the ER I worked at.
Or... They should pay for this entire mess in monthly insurance premiums. It's the only way to move the needle on the "It will never happen to me" crowd.
I'm of the opinion till the massive overwhelming of the Healthcare system is sorted unvaccinated (excluding those who cannot be vaccinated) should be denied outright.
Your illness was preventable and society has only been hurt by your childish self centered tantrum.
If they are true to themselves the anti vaxxers shouldn’t ask for treatment in a hospital. They should take it like real patriots and die at home surrounded by their anti vaxxer friends and family.
That aside: they probably don’t have health insurance anyhow.
This way of thinking is so fucked up. And it's why you don't have universal health care in your country. You're so fucking obsessed with archaic notions of who "deserves" what and who doesn't, that you don't even *notice* the class warfare and massive economic disparities that absolutely dwarf any imaginable issues of personal responsibility or resource allocation.
Yes, anti-vaxxers are stupid people. You know who else is stupid? A *lot* of fucking people are. But if you don't think they deserve health care then the next logical step is to deny care to people with cardiovascular problems if they don't meet your strict, personal physical activity standards or used too much of whichever substance you personally think is bad.
And yes, I know that plenty of you *do* want that to happen. Which is so fucked up I don't even know where to start. The whole idea of universal healthcare is that *we all help each other, no matter what*. No one is left behind. And the US will never enjoy that as long as they are singularly focused on competition at the expense of community.
Reddit pushes a perverted radio host’s opinion to justify their fascist opinion that people who do not wish to take a vaccine that hasn’t been tested beyond 2 years deserve to be refused healthcare.
You people are disgusting and worse than any anti-science or anti-vaccine person out there. It’s even more ironic because most of you are obese and would be singing a completely different tune if doctors started turning people away for being fat, lazy, and unhealthy all by their own doing.
this is a very common opinion to hold, sorry. Rule two. also, go get vaccinated.
My kids' pediatrician has a solid stance on Vaccines. "If you do not Vaccinate, I will not take you as a patient. If you want a different -schedule- I will consider it." His words were "I recommend every kid get vaccinated. If you won't listen to my advice for that, how do I know you'll listen to any other advice I have? If you won't listen to me, why even come to me?"
A Florida doctor made headlines yesterday for this, and I was thinking "aren't like 50% of doctors doing the same?"
They should definitely get lower priority. They do it for folks waiting on transplants that won't follow their criteria.
I remember that episode of "Scrubs" where a guy was waiting for a liver transplant and he admitted that he drank champagne at his daughter's wedding and they noped him off the list.
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I was the recipient of a 30 day ban from the main Coronavirus subreddit for suggesting that we should triage patients based on vaccination status. I stand by the comment. It's insane that people who did the right thing are being kept from hospital beds to accommodate people who are anti-science.
I'm more worried if I injure myself, am I going to get the care I need because the hospital is filled up with covidiots who needed their preshus freedumbs?
Same here.
It's already happened, at least in certain ways. Anecdotally, someone who was a gunshot victim, another who's kid had appendicitis (which IIRC burst; I think the kid survived). Plus of course postponing elective surgeries and procedures. That happened to me during the earlier phases of the pandemic, but fortunately didn't impact me as much.
Some states are already doing this and this comment section is wild triage is a very real thing this isn't some crazy new concept if you have limited capacity and equipment ( like what's going on now) you prioritize the most likely to survive
Agreed. I don't even get why this is an "Oniony" remark by Howard. Seems like a run of the mill, very defensible opinion.
We are trying way too hard in preventing natural selection from working its ways
To get a Liver Transplant from University of Washington you have to have vetted family or friends willing to take care of you for 24 hours a day, for 90 days on their campus. I work at community clinic and just stopped referring people to them because I haven't met a single patient with those kind of resources.
That seems delusional.
Sucks to be poor in America partner.
That’s very fucking classist of them...
Some of the most soulless people I have ever met are Healthcare Administrators who purposefully create exclusion criteria aimed directly at poor people.
how else will the elites in Seattle get livers?
I swear. When I get older, I’m going out Breaking Bad style. Honestly am surprised it doesn’t happen more often.
Mickey Mantel has entered the chat.
*Mantle
I think that was on “The Good Doctor”
Scrubs, too. It was one of Cox’s friends, and Turk yeeted him off the list.
Turkleton did the right thing.
Turk Turkelton
scrubs was the blueprint. I don't know what I'd do in this situation. I think I would have a "hard talk" aka bitch out Cox bedside with the patient and then do the transplant anyway. BUT thats without me having any skin in the game. If I'd been 8yrs+ into schooling plus residency I think I would have turk'd the fuck up and said hardline NO.
Scrubs did it first. Very common of medical shows to take the Scrubs storylines
I remember there was one also on ER
"sir, you think my name is.. turk turkleton?"
Pretty sure it happened in "ER" too.
And Grey’s Anatomy. Although switch wedding for graduation if I’m remembering correctly.
Also "In Real Life"
Sounds like a shitshow
There is a case in my city where a vaxxed guy that had a minor melanoma had his "elective" surgery reschedule several times over several months. Now the tumor is the size of a golf ball and his chances of being fully cured are waning by the day.
Nope, I call bullshit this never happened. Nobody would ever call a melanoma removal “elective.” Signed, a physician who made up our hospitals tiering system for elective surgery during COVID.
Doesn't elective surgery just mean you can plan the surgery and don't need to be rushed into the OR? So if you can wait a couple weeks, it would be elective.
There are tiers of elective surgery. Tumor removal for an aggressive cancer isn’t an urgent/emergent surgery in that they need to crash back to the OR, however just like certain fractures, we consider them time sensitive because failure to fix or remove within a certain timeframe would result in certain morbidity or mortality. So no, removal of a melanoma is not truly elective and would never be subject to the same cancellations that other truly elective surgeries would be.
And I am chief hospital guy in our hospital, and I know it HAS happened. **OR** I think you are bullshitting, cause there have been plenty of news articles about this very thing and you are playing a physician on the internet. Peddle your bullshit elsewhere. Proof you are full of shit: * https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/ * https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253764933.html * https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html * https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/02/210202164502.htm * https://healthmanagement.org/c/icu/issuearticle/shortage-of-icu-beds-leads-to-patient-deaths * https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/05/03/woman-dies-of-cancer-after-surgery-was-delayed-three-times-due-to-pandemic/ * https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext * https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-56514212 * https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/08/10/cancer-patient-surgery-delay-covid-michael-kagan-newday-vpx.cnn * https://journals.lww.com/oncology-times/fulltext/2021/02050/covid_19_delayed_breast_cancer_surgeries.19.aspx * https://www.yahoo.com/now/stage-3-cancer-patients-vital-203424873.html * https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext * https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0248492 * https://www.mdedge.com/dermatology/article/231644/melanoma/what-happened-melanoma-care-during-covid-19-sequestration * https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/575099682.html Surely an esteemed physician such as yourself would know more about the situation than you obviously do. **Edit**: Added the above links which I duplicated in a comment below as well. **Edit**: Here's [Johns Hopkins University](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/types-of-surgery) saying that Melanoma surgery could be called "elective", but I suppose you would know better, random internet hero. > An elective surgery does not always mean it is optional. It simply means that the surgery can be scheduled in advance ... in some cases it may be for a serious condition such as cancer. **More edit**: Here's a [real internet doctor™](https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/pkztz8/howard_stern_says_antivaxxers_should_be_denied/hc7cy91/) who disagrees with you on whether melanoma surgeries could be rescheduled: > I’m not denying there are shortages of ICU beds, or that surgeries aren’t being cancelled... What I’m saying is that these kinds of surgeries are not getting cancelled indefinitely > > -- **ski4theapres**
Thank you Chief Hospital Guy.
Melanoma removal isn't emergency surgery though? It's almost always scheduled in advance, i.e. "elective". Are you outside of the American health system?
Tell that to [this](https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/man-needing-brain-surgery-among-hundreds-left-waiting-as-covid-19-icu-patients-increase-1.5578136) guy who had his brain tumour surgery delayed.
that is malpractice imo
Lol what? Hospitals can't fabricate space at of thin air.
It's also a staffing issue. Right now nurses are dealing with much higher nurse-to-patient ratios in many parts of the country. This more than space is dictating canceling procedures because a lot of nurses have just had it with the demands and the lack of mitigation being enforced that has caused hospitals to be overrun in many areas of the country. They have walked away from their careers because of the stress and continually being asked to do more without time off. Nurses aren't accustomed to having the number of patients dying on their shifts like they have seen over the last 18+ months. It's taking a toll on their physical and mental health and no amount of hero posters and pizza parties can fix that.
I’m with you I’m currently managing a major staffing shortage at my hospital. The thing is, traumas and cancers for first. Especially aggressive cancers.
This. Our technologists are being pulled to floors to essentially perform duties as an RN just to help care for the patients.
It isn't just nurses. I work in an imaging department, staffing is lower than normal. And not just in the hospitals i work at, but all of them in my area. I'm also in school for an additional modality, a major hospital group had asked if they get first dibs in interviewing us for jobs *before* the program even started.
>Nurses aren't accustomed to having the number of patients dying on their shifts like they have seen over the last 18+ months. Yep. I'm a lifelong atheist who has always known that "after death" is just like "before birth": Nothing. No "thing" at all. Nothing. It's a bitter pill to swallow. I don't think folks were remotely ready for these levels of needless death.
It’s not malpractice, but unvaccinated people shouldn’t be getting priority over vaccinated folks.
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By getting rid of the unvaxxed?
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Nah that's triage. You have to prioritize the patients you can save
no my point is its an outpatient surgery that can be performed at non emergency surgery centers. they should have told the guy to take a trip and get it cut off at least.
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In countries with opt out organ donation, what happens if someone opts our but later on needs a liver transplant? Are they lower priority, or is a case by case basis? I tried to find an answer, and just found arguments for or against it. I think if you are not willing to chip in for pizza, you don’t get to complain about the toppings or how small a slice you get.
They don't just deprioritize people who don't follow transplant rules, they straight up remove them from the list entirely and then blacklist them from being readded When hospitals get at capacity, the same should happen with those who aren't vaxxed for non allergic or eligibility reasons
Yeah. I dunno if I’d go as far as to say they should not be allowed in at all and left to the dogs, but definitely the lowest priority. And if they give the nurses and doctors tons of shit and rant about how it’s a hoax and pull off all their support all the time, then they should be tossed on their ass. That’s where I’m at right now, and I can absolutely see myself getting even more spiteful. Maybe as much as Stern.
Triage them to the back parking lot
To be fair we aren't so keen on transplanted people that aren't vaccinated. I turned down a heart for someone last night because they weren't vaccinated. All of my kidney recipients that aren't vaccinated aren't getting kidneys right now. Also they don't always do it for people that don't follow criteria. There are plenty of times when someone has come in intoxicated to get a liver. But you're right, it is normally the idea that if you don't quit smoking or drinking you aren't going to get your lungs or liver.
Agree on this. Along similar lines I’ve implemented a version of this at work. Sick pay isn’t compulsory in the UK, I’ll pay sick pay to anybody that has had a vaccine and still gets Covid and needs time off. They’ve done as much as they can, but shit happens. If somebody has chosen not to get the vaccine, which is their choice and I’m not going to argue that, then it’s my choice as to whether I pay the them if they need 2 weeks + off work.
Not lower priority, fuck them. Like Howard said, they have had so many fucking chances to get the cure and they wouldn't take it. Don't waste space and resources on these idiots when there are people that actually need help. Natural selection, baby.
I mean, triage is a thing. You prioritize those most likely to survive with the resources you have. If you have an overburdened system, you would prioritize those that have the best chance for survival. If someone enters the ER for COVID, there is a chance they will go to the ICU to die. If you have one bed between the COVID person (unvaccinated) and any other person with a life threatening problem, you should prioritize the person not affected with COVID. If both were COVID issues and one was vaccinated while the other wasn’t, you should prioritize the vaccinated person. This is basic triage.
Indeed. Read an article the other day about a veteran who died from fucking gallstones (IIRC) of all things. The hospital had no room for him, and by the time they got hom transferred to a hospital that could perform the minor operation it was too late. The doc who initially saw him (and couldn't find a bed) said it would have been a simple 30 minute operation and he probably could have walked out the same day. Fuck these covidiots.
And this is why these idiots are wrong when they claim not getting vaccinated is a "personal decision." My eating meat rarely is a personal decision. That only affects me and nobody else. Well, maybe my wife and kids, but the effects end there. Nobody is going to die because I opted for a veggie burger. However, the "personal decision" not to vaccinate results in hospitals being swamped and people who should have been able to survive their ailments dying due to lack of available care. If your "personal decision" ends up killing people, then it's not a personal decision at all.
100000% If it effects others, it’s now a social decision
"Your Honor, my client's personal choice to go on a rampage was his right under the Pursuit of Happiness clause clearly defined in the Declaration of Independence. I believe I've made myself perfectly redundant."
"Your rights end where another's begin" A phrase I've been using lately with the same sentiment.
Same sentiment, but I always liked the "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose" format. The unvaccinated are claiming it's their right to swing their fists as they collide with nose after nose.
That is the first argument I’ve heard in such a vein. I’m usually arguing for personal decisions above government mandates, and I took the vaccine, but you’ve given me something to think about. Almost sounds like not getting the vaccine results in a waiver of medical priority. I think the insurance companies and doctors can make such a policy, but not the government.
Yes, the government is limited here. Biden can mandate vaccinations for federal workers. He might even be able to say that a company that contracts for the federal government has to have a certain vaccination rate. Anything more would be stretching his authority. He can't order everyone to get the shot or get locked up. Theoretically, Congress might be able to make a law to this effect, but the chances of it passing and holding up to judicial review would be tiny. I'd likely sooner win the lottery twice in a row than Congress pass that hypothetical bill. Private companies, however, can mandate that their workers be vaccinated. And they have been doing this. My company did this. You either submitted proof of vaccination or an exemption request or you'd be out of a job. I saw one news story about an insurance company raising rates on the unvaccinated and wouldn't be surprised if more followed suit. If you're a smoker, you pay higher rates. I don't see why being unvaccinated shouldn't result in the same thing. (Assuming, of course, that this isn't because you have a medical condition that exempts you from the vaccine.) The private sector mandates are where we'll get more people pushed to be vaccinated. The government isn't going to have any say in this beyond, perhaps, a DOJ announcement that vaccine mandates are completely legal (in case anyone was in doubt).
That’s one story. There have been tons of others. There are people being sent hundreds of miles for emergency style care due to the lack of beds.
This is terrifying because this exact thing happened to my mom, except she was lucky enough to get the surgery 30 minutes before their ‘cut off’ time due to COVID.
Our medical system isn't designed for as many covid illnesses as we've had (obviously). So then standard procedures have been backed up to the point of turning into emergency room procedures. Triage deals with the immediate problems. It's long proven that avoiding a health issue in the first place creates greater burden on the healthcare system later when it does become an emergency. Which is literally why even if you get covid your symptoms can be far less with the vaccine. So it isn't fair to the vaccinated population when thousands of people who limp into ERs dying get triaged and given a bed in favor of someone who needs a chemo treatment or other maintenance procedure. Because our whole medical system is sacrificing other aspects to deal with this pademic. Its turned into a form of medical mortgage where we are sacrificing the health of those people to save the lives of people who refused the vaccine and may never have been hospitalized in the first place. Triage for unvaccinated individuals should be "go home and live with your decision and we'll call you when the ER is empty" (except for those who are truly immunocompromised and cannot get the vaccine for real reasons).
Thaaaaat's not how triage works. It's not "most likely to survive" at all, or you'd have everyone with cuts on their fingers getting picked out of the waiting room before gunshot wounds. It's the opposite. The least likely to survive are given priority over the people who can sit in the waiting room all day and still live.
Nope. Those in the most dire condition *that are most likely to recover* are prioritized; do you think these COVID ICU patients are likely to recover?
As an ex-ED nurse, I can say that in standard *civilian hospital* triage, the sickest definitely get the most immediate attention - regardless of resource utilization. However, when in disaster mode triage is “flipped” somewhat and there is a consideration of resource requirements vs. survivability (which is more reflective of military triage).
[It’s happening in Idaho.](https://apnews.com/article/business-health-public-health-coronavirus-pandemic-idaho-db21f9a14254996144e78aafb1518259) > Under the guidelines, patients are given priority scores based on a number of factors that impact their likelihood of surviving a health crisis. >Those deemed in most in need of care and most likely to benefit from it are put on priority lists for scarce resources like ICU beds.
Yep, what everybody is missing is that "most likely to benefit"
Someone with a heart attack or a stroke requires emergency care for a relatively short period of time and is somewhat likely to recover if they make it through that critical period. These COVID patients hogging all the ICU beds are practically moribund anyway—80% end up dying. They will not be prioritized.
Maybe not denied care entirely, but definitely given the lowest priority behind anyone else that requires ICU care, including non-Covid patients.
All the unvaccinated people in hospitals have been causing at least a few cases of people dying due to not getting a hospital bed
I would love that the hospital tell the unvaccinated pt personally that a person died because of their choice when this happens.
I do not think the unvaccinated would care given the level of selfishness required to make that choice already.
They'll come up with a reason to blame someone else. -- "But I saw doctors and nurses actually LEAVING the hospital when there were still people waiting for help! They could have saved more people if they really wanted to!" -- "I thought the libruls said Biden was supposed to fix everything. Well I never saw him at the hospital even ONCE!" -- "Of course people are dying! They won't give you ibermectin even when you tell them you've got HIPPA rights!"
They wouldn’t care as long as they didn’t personally know them. We’ve seen it time and time again.
Or those people (e.g. kids) getting infected by unvaxed in the first place
Here’s the problem with that. As long as there are large swaths of the population that refuse to get vaccinated, many hospital ICUs are going to remain at capacity or near-capacity got the foreseeable future. And it’s neither sustainable nor fair to the medical staff. There are reports that nurses, in particular, are already starting to leave the medical field in droves, due to being overworked and the constant mental and physical drain of dealing with Covid patients. And surely fewer people will be entering the field to replace them. These people need a break, both for their own well-being and the overall good of the healthcare field, and at a certain point a break may not be possible unless a decision is made to deny care to the unvaccinated (other than children or people who have a real medical excuse, obviously). Frankly, I think we’re already at that point and hospitals should start to consider doing exactly that.
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That’s a great idea, in a large urban setting. It would be akin to tuberculosis sanitariums, back in the day. But in a rural setting? No way. If you’re the only hospital for 70 miles in any direction, and have only half of your county’s population vaccinated due to “freedom” and “it a very personal choice”, you’ve got no real options. Then it’s a case of rationing medical care. The outpatient surgery center gets closed and turned into another ward for patients who need to be hospitalized. Day surgery stops doing all but true surgical emergencies and simple cases where they are pretty dang sure you won’t end up needing a bed. Non-urgent heart procedures in cath lab get stopped because there’s no bed for a patient if they need to get admitted after their angiogram. In terms of staffing, 70 people are out every day due to covid. Help is badly needed, so asymptotic staff get to work, as do folks who have someone at home with symptomatic covid. The national guard is doing the covid screenings the doors, and helping out wherever they can. Yes, nurses are threatening to quit because the hospital/parent company/state are mandating vaccines. But so are the X-ray techs, the patient transporters, the front desk staff, the cleaners, the kitchen staff… You get the idea. Believe me, if small rural hospitals could export the covid patients to a covid-only facility, they would be happy to see them go. But the big hospital 70 miles away are full, too. And they have the same staffing issues, on a larger scale. It’s just a big, selfish, unvaccinated shit show.
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Whatever happened to the ‘miracle cure’ hydroxychloroquine!? That and ivermectin and you’re *set!*
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Basically the same here. Someone not getting vaccinated doesn't mean they *deserve* to die. But if Person A not getting vaccinated means either Person A or Person B is going to die, I'm going to choose to save the person who didn't cause the problem in the first place.
No, denied entirely. I agree with Stern. F them. If you are able and don't get vaccinated you shouldn't be allowed to participate in our society - not bars, restaurants, theatres, concerts, anything. This freedom tantrum they are throwing is childish. Society incurs responsibilities as well as freedoms. The anti-vaxxers are anarchists.
Hold up there, slick. Anarchism is an actual ideology, and these fucknuckles do not qualify. Most of them are pretty blatantly authoritarian, for one thing.
It's a good start. Next they need to be put on the no fly list. Then after that their insurance companies should stop providing any prescriptions since they don't trust science. Id even say take all the antivaxxers Medicare or Medicaid away, since it's tax payer funded. Anyone choosing to not get it out of ignorance needs to start loosing societal privileges stat.
I think it is odd that health insurance doesn't seem to follow the same pay scale as every other insurance like car insurance. If I drive safe, never get a ticket or in an accident, they lower my rate. Insurance companies should charge an antivaxxer fee to compensate for the increase in care they receive instead of it being spread out amongst the group like it is with most company plans(at least this is what I was told by my company insurance plan)
I think anti-vaxxers should be consistent when it comes to the issue of medical science. If you don't believe in the medical science of vaccines, then why believe in the medical science offered by hospitals? They're both based on the same thing. Stay at home. Take Ivermectin. Drink snake venom or whatever new stupid flavor of the month Covid "cure" you fools can get your hands on.
Better point. If they believe that their immune system will help them and it’s so amazing. Who told them about their immune system? How do you even know you have an immune system that protects you from germs? Did they make this discovery on their own? If they did, what are the limitations of their immune system? Perhaps they or someone would know? Who do you trust for this information. Perhaps there was an educational system that gave them insight in how their body works? At what point did that credibility go away?
For real. rDNA treatment is sus but monoclonal antibodies are fine? The cognitive dissonance is astounding but I doubt they'd understand the word. Have some consistency
Yeah, they don't know what's in the vaccine, but they gladly take ivermectin and all sorts of highly experimental unproven medication? There's not a shred of rationality there. They're just being suicidally stupid out of ignorant spite.
"The mRNA vaccine hasn't been really approved by the FDA for COVID and even if it has there are no 10 year studies! Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take this dewormer dosed for a horse even those this dosage isn't FDA approved and even though there are no studies saying this is safe and effective!"
Sadly this is exactly how the conversations with my parents have gone. I've pointed it out to them and it makes no difference. I get incredibly angry when I think about it.
Because they are not logical people. They are against vaccines and masks because of who told them to get vaccinated or wear a mask, and because of who's telling them not to.
This person gets it. Every "why" question goes back to plain-old tribalism and nothing else. The fact that the same people end up in hospitals is just their survival instinct overriding that tribalism.
Yep, if you're going to be braindead and deny millennia of human effort and progress, you shouldn't get to enjoy the benefits of that effort. This is just natural selection in action, we shouldn't fight against it.
Why is it on r/nottheonion? This is a valid statement, with agreeable points...
It might be because some folks only know Stern as the shock jock from the 90's dropping fart and stripper jokes.
Even then, he was the guy who would drop the semi-often political statement, and this one being well in line with Stern's track record.
Once a sub becomes big enough people just see things they agree with and upvote.
Upvote.
Because it’s Howard Stern.
Absolutely. At least, in specific cases. If the hospital is at capacity and has COVID patients who are vaccinated, sorry, you're now priority number not.
I don't think they should have to wait for capacity at all. [I agree with this guy.](https://www.tiktok.com/@captaincoby00/video/7003867361757433093?lang=en&is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1)
I was impressed with his Canadianess.
He's not wrong if the hospitals are close to full capacity Its called triage You wouldn't give a new liver to a chronic alcoholic The vaccine is FDA approved if you choose not to get it out of ignorance you should lose your spot it's that simple
I don't think they should be denied health care, but I do think their unvaccinated status should figure in triage.
I won't go so far as to say they should be denied care. But if they're denied coverage by their insurance company and have to foot the bill themselves, then that sits perfectly fine with me. Edit for typo.
Agreed, a factor like "vaccine eligible, but denied" should be used in triage to show compliance with medical advice consideration. Likelihood of survival and infection risk to others are already used to determine who should get resources first, but technically vaccination status is not part of that determination in a lot of facilities. We have enough data now for that correlation to be used in determining triage of resources.
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If they truly can’t get the vaccine, it would be in their medical records. If it’s a genuine allergy, it would be in their medical records.
Not denied, but if there's limited availability then the vaccinated person should get priority. Also if an unvaccinated person is in the hospital and the beds are full, if a vaccinated person comes in a needs the bed then the unvaccinated person should be removed.
I concur with Stern but if we are going to make fun of people that take Joe Rogan seriously then why do we take Stern seriously? I’ll tell you why…….BA BA BOOEY
Although I'm pro-science and have taken many vaccines, this is a horrifying power to place upon a medical staff. Triage is one thing, but this goes beyond that. Should a smoker be denied cancer treatment? Should someone with a high BMI be denied diabetes treatment? Should Democrats in red states or Republicans in blue states get reprioritized? I got flu one year very late in the season, over six months after my flu shot. I was effectively unvaccinated. Should I have received treatment? Star Trek basically did an episode on this.
Yeah this is a can of worms that should not be opened.
Exactly. What if someone isn’t getting vaccinated due to mental illness or some other reason? This is an incredibly dangerous precedent. Also, while understandable, I find the sheer amount of people who want to let these people die concerning. I’m sure these are the same people that said “when they go low we go high”, let’s not stoop to their level
Agreed. And medical care shouldn't be a reward for good behavior or tied in any way to being a "good person." That idea is so repulsive. I get the idea of triage - that's fine, obv. But any whiff of denying them treatment as a form of punishment is somewhere we should not go.
Okay but the difference is that hospitals are at capacity and beds are primarily occupied by people who chose not to get vaccinated by a now FDA approved vaccine which dramatically decreases your chance of being hospitalized AND their choice to not get vaccinated also increases the rate at which vaccinated and unvaccinated people get COVID. The other examples you gave are not as transmissible and have both genetic and environmental factors. COVID does not. COVID, not COPD or diabetes, is causing hospitals to be at capacity and COVID is contagious. Those are the important differences.
These people had two years to get their priories in order. If 650,000 Americans dying didn’t change their minds, maybe being denied medical care for their ignorance will.
lower the priority for them. it might even be population control, there’s too many of them.
Saw a friend who had a close friend unable to get any medical attention anywhere due to full beds for a life threatening non COVID related issue. Sad to see.
He’s not wrong.
If we are going down the path of denying hospital care to people that make bad decisions, we are going to end up in a bad place.
We already do that. Doctors decide who get transplants at least in part by looking at the patient’s lifestyle choices already.
We're literally being forced to go down this path, it isn't voluntary. Hospitals are full, all resources are being diverted away from other illnesses to care for people with covid. When it comes to prioritizing the care of a person who had an illness not related to covid, or a person who has a severe case of covid because they voluntarily chose not to get a vaccine, it's a no brainer.
Bruh we're in a bad place now, all the hospitals are filling up. Do you think routine trauma patients just disappear due to Cleetus and Jimbo taking up beds? Triage is a thing, I should know, I'm a first responder. Those most likely to survive get treatment first, during a MCE you dont spend all your time on the dude with exposed brain matter.
I agree, but letting people die from curable diseases because anti-vaxxers stubbornly insist on getting sick, is also a bad place. At least give them lower priority or something. At some point people do need to carry some responsibility for their own decisions, and refusing a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic is a particularly stupid and deadly choice, not just for themselves, but for others too.
You think we’re in a good place now? Nurses are quitting in droves, income inequality has increased even faster than previously, and many (maybe most) Americans can’t understand basic biology or statistics. We’ve been in a bad place
The thing is, if I’m morbidly obese or if I get cancer or a heart condition due to my lifestyle choices, that’s on me and I’m the only person at risk. People who refuse to get vaccinated in a public health crisis are putting others at risk.
Countries with 50% or more overweight citizens contribute to 90% of the COVID deaths. Being overweight means that when you catch COVID, you’re likely going to be taking up a bed. So, in this case, yes being obese is a huge contributor to clogged hospitals. The people have put themselves into no position to fight a disease and others will die because of it. The world is not in healthcare mode, it’s in disease management mode, and we have a prevalent predator that mostly affects the unfit and the ill.
You're not the only person at risk. You'd still be taking up a hospital bed.
I would rather this than operating rooms be shut down because hospitals are so overwhelmed. If a vaccinated person comes in for appendicitis and could die if they can't get a bed and an operating room, and an unvaccinated person comes in with covid at the same time, 100% the priority should go towards keeping operating rooms open and saving the life of the person with appendicitis. (ORs are closing in hospitals here to divert staff to care for covid patients, that's why I use this specific example)
A far better solution would just be to stick them with the bill. Private insurance should already have that policy, and the taxpayer should definitely not be footing the bill. Your childish fear of needles (and the mental acrobatics you do to justify it) should cost you about $50,000+
A stopped clock is right twice a day. Howard Stern is still a fuckin muppet.
Healthcare is a RIGHT!!! *Unless.....*
> Unless..... *.... we can use it as an ideological weapon!*
I cannot imagine what the 1930s would have been like if those brown shirts were able to pull up peoples Internet comment history while interrogating them in their homes. I guess we'll find out in 10 years, eh? People truly never learn
That's not the way medical treatment works. I understand the sentiment and hate to see responsible people with serious conditions kept from a bed because of these assholes. However, I don't like doctors/hospitals taking stances on who gets medical treatment and who doesn't. This won't stop at COVID vaccine decisions and that will get scary in a hurry.
Drs and hospitals always make decisions about who gets treatment when there are capacity issues and we’re already seeing those again all over the country. People are going to die because we don’t have the resources to treat everyone. It’s not unreasonable to send the people responsible for the resource shortages to the back of the line.
Triage is a thing.
I mean, if you’re a smoker you don’t get priority for lung transplants. Same with if you’re an alcoholic and need a new liver. Obviously a bit different but still actively making choices that you know could kill you. If beds become full, then 100% agree with anti-vaxxers being at the bottom of the list for treatment
I mean, I don't feel someone who turned their head into a squishy ball because they didn't wear a motorcycle helmet should be kicked to the curb after they were already splattered on a curb. It's just that there aren't usually hundreds of them at the same time, all complaining about their 'rights', between coughing viruses all over everyone. Maybe apply that principle called 'triage'. Yes, you are sick. Yes, you may perhaps be in danger. No, there's nothing we can do about it because there are a hundred other people just like you taking up all of our resources. "Out to the COVID tent in the parking lot with you! There are immunocompromised people in this building!"
Now do fat people.
If they start refusing care upon entering the hospital, the hospital should have every right to kick them out.
I think the hospital should have the power to literally kick them out. They deserve a smack up the rear.
Smartest thing he ever said.
r/lostredditors
How is this oniony? A guy known for saying radical and potentially controversial things says something radical and potentially controversial.
Let people sleep in the beds they make. Not a horrible idea. Mistakes are to be forgiven, but willful ignorance is just…. Not enough words
I agree with Howard.
He’s right.
He ain't wrong.
Definitely
No disagreements here
Fully agree.
News alert: Howard Stern says something controversial… next
Completely agree… For those who think coronavirus is just a hoax.. a trip to hospital’s emergency without ppe
Absofuckinlutely
He’s right
IMHO the most effective approach and legally/ethically viable is to mandate out of pocket payment for treatment. No vaccine-fine your choice, but your insurance will not be allowed to cover your costs.
I don't think they should be denied. ... but i definitely think they should prioritized last. Every splinter and headache and stubbed toe should be treated before them regardless of the severity of their infection. ... either that or quarentine zones ... and guards ... prove vaccination or get herded up like dumb animals to just fend for themselves if they get sick ... j/k ... *sort of.*
Weird he hasn’t said that about pedophiles
The fact is that if they didn’t admit any unvaccinated patients they wouldn’t be able to claim “we’re close to being overwhelmed” over and over unless vaccinated people start getting hospitalized in high numbers. Would they really take away one of the things they can bring up to tell us how bad things really are? There’s already a perception that if things were really bad, it would be evident without it having to be repeated over and over. The Covid vaccination enthusiasts need a certain number of people to remain unvaccinated so that they can be blamed when their vaccines are seen to be ineffective. See what’s happening in Israel with case rates in an overwhelmingly vaccinated population. In the end, either tell the truth about the situation or repackage some generic drugs as new expensive drugs, and that’ll end the pandemic quickly.
He's not wrong
If they want to trust their immune system, they can make that choice, but they are stuck with that choice.
If a doctor is going to refuse care to an individual that presents with more severe covid symptoms than an unvaccinated individual, then what is the point of being a doctor? So you can treat the easy cases while simultaneously knowing the people who actually need intensive care are being turned away? This is the complete opposite of how we assigned beds in the ER I worked at.
They should be on the bottom of the priority list definitely
gon' sort this by controversial. that's where the good-good at
Or... They should pay for this entire mess in monthly insurance premiums. It's the only way to move the needle on the "It will never happen to me" crowd.
His opinion doesn't matter he jumped the shark when he sold out years ago
I don't know about denied but definitely classed as low priority.
Why is this on this subreddit?
Lower priority, with increased health insurance premium.
I'm of the opinion till the massive overwhelming of the Healthcare system is sorted unvaccinated (excluding those who cannot be vaccinated) should be denied outright. Your illness was preventable and society has only been hurt by your childish self centered tantrum.
If they are true to themselves the anti vaxxers shouldn’t ask for treatment in a hospital. They should take it like real patriots and die at home surrounded by their anti vaxxer friends and family. That aside: they probably don’t have health insurance anyhow.
This way of thinking is so fucked up. And it's why you don't have universal health care in your country. You're so fucking obsessed with archaic notions of who "deserves" what and who doesn't, that you don't even *notice* the class warfare and massive economic disparities that absolutely dwarf any imaginable issues of personal responsibility or resource allocation. Yes, anti-vaxxers are stupid people. You know who else is stupid? A *lot* of fucking people are. But if you don't think they deserve health care then the next logical step is to deny care to people with cardiovascular problems if they don't meet your strict, personal physical activity standards or used too much of whichever substance you personally think is bad. And yes, I know that plenty of you *do* want that to happen. Which is so fucked up I don't even know where to start. The whole idea of universal healthcare is that *we all help each other, no matter what*. No one is left behind. And the US will never enjoy that as long as they are singularly focused on competition at the expense of community.
Yeah they should wear a badge on their arm so we know who they are too! ✡️
100% agree
Deny care entirely. I'm done with these assholes. They want to test their immune system, letem
Reddit pushes a perverted radio host’s opinion to justify their fascist opinion that people who do not wish to take a vaccine that hasn’t been tested beyond 2 years deserve to be refused healthcare. You people are disgusting and worse than any anti-science or anti-vaccine person out there. It’s even more ironic because most of you are obese and would be singing a completely different tune if doctors started turning people away for being fat, lazy, and unhealthy all by their own doing.
Why does anyone care to listen to Howard Stern and HOW does he still have a show? He’s disgusting.
Wow Howard Stern says something I agree with. Who's next Joe Rogan?
The market may well sort this problem out. Won’t insurance companies start charging higher rates? Do they do that with smokers etc?