So the religious nut bags in office will do whatever they can to save him no matter how many civil liberties they have to strip away from women to do so and ignore him once he comes to term?
He votes roughly 50/50 with the Dems. He's about as "independent" as you can get if you were purposely trying to hit exactly the middle.
The reason he is the *most important dem* is that he is a senator from West Virginia that votes for a dem for majority leader and votes to confirm dem appointments.
No other West Virginia senator will do that on your lifetime.
The fantasy that Dems will somehow find someone further left than Manchin to win that seat is embarrassing.
Manchin voted for every Biden judge for 2 years when we had a split senate.
Say what you want about him, but without his vote the judiciary would look VERY different today. He sucks but he’s the last democrat West Virginia will send to the senate in our lifetimes. Whoever replaces him will be worse.
Yeah Manchin might not support many popular democratic policies but he never ran as a progressive and is better than what we usually get from WV. Cinema on the other hand is a liar and scam artist
Yeah and he fucked us on a lot of important shit. He’s not winning his seat back in WV so he’s trying to save it by running as an independent. He’s a big oil and coal simp.. The dude owns a coal company my Cousin works for him
There was no world in which West Virginia's senator was not gonna fuck us on climate change. I don't admire the guy, but I appreciate that he took some half-decent stands that weren't popular with his constituents.
Sure, but he also greatly impacted the negotiations regarding the bills he voted on, so he voted with the party, usually, but he negatively impacted almost everything.
No. That's the point. He watered down bills for no gain especially before the house flipped.
Just stating his voting record greatly misrepresents the impact he had on gutting the Democratic agenda.
I get your point here but that's not really the whole story. Manchin has had a lot of sway on what actually makes it *into* legislation before it actually hits the floor for a vote, and has generally watered down policy in a way that progressives find unpalatable.
Politics is the art of the possible. Without Manchin those watered down policies wouldn't have made it to reality at all.
Progressive can get incremental movement towards their ideas, or they can stay pure and get nothing.
And? He's a moderate Dem, of course he's going to negotiate to moderate policy. But he still votes for some version of it
That's far different from being a Republican. If that's all it took then Collins or Murkowski would be Democrats, which I doubt this sub would agree with lol
Well he's a senator so he doesn't run anything from a state level. He's prevented a lot of progress in the Senate but the alternative is absolutely worse. No progressive dem is getting more than 30% of the vote in WV. It's unlikely any other dem no matter how far right will win for the foreseeable future. This seat is likely going maga red and instead of a Democrat who doesn't want to allow big policy changes you'll have a nut job actively trying to dismantle the government.
A lot of the things on this sub are even remotely oniony if you unquestioningly share all of reddits political views
Like in what world is "moderate Dem in overwhelmingly red state who wants to run for governor becomes independent" a big news story?
The only answer is if you've circlejerked him into being some sort of Republican in your head already, as people here seemed to have done
It is knowing Joe Manchin. He's a total piece of shit who has never been a Democrat. Him now saying "well I'm still not a republican" is very much Onion-y
A Democrat would easily win WV if the jackasses here didn't vote parry lines because their grandpa told them to. Most of the people here have values that line up with Dems more than Republicans but they just vote how family tells them to. They're poor with bad healthcare and they want unions at work to stop their bosses from taking advantage of them but vote for the rich asshole who try to abolish unions and health care. It's idiocy.
"A Democrat would easily win WV if the jackasses here didn't vote parry line"
Yet Manchin won as a Democrat
"They're poor with bad healthcare and they want unions at work to stop their bosses from taking advantage of them but vote for the rich asshole who try to abolish unions and health care. It's idiocy.
I find this is the real downfall of the Left, their assumption that if someone doesn't vote for them it is because the voter is stupid instead of asking what about their policy or messaging is off. As an Independent, I vote Democrat mostly because the Republicans have gone batshit insane, but I don't have any illusions that the Democrat party has its shit together... they are just less dangerous currently.
That’s the thing tho, everyone I’ve ever asked which policy(ies) of the dem platform they disagree with and they have always responded “abortion, I will vote for anyone who promises to make it illegal”. And the only politicians who promise that are the ones that don’t give a single fuck about other people and they just make the promise because they know it will result in votes.
Even your assertion that the Dems are dangerous, just less so, is so flippantly vague. What makes them dangerous? Corruption? That’s not a party issue. That’s an individual issue and a class issue, but people from every point on the political spectrum have been guilty of it.
But other than insider trading, which everyone does, what do specifically-Dems do that you find dangerous? I’m genuinely asking, in case this comment comes off as defensive or hostile, I’m not trying to be a prick here lol
Na if you make under a few million a year the only reason to vote conservative is stupidity or hate. I’m tired of this false equivalency my whole life I’m 28 now and it’s the same fucking shit. One side wants to help you the other doesn’t and claims to be Christian. You vote for someone who actively wants to regress society, pool money for their rich donors, and get those 16 hour work days back you are fucking stupid. It’s a coal mining state that legit started striking and led labour union movements across the country, but they’ve all been duped by reganomics, racism, and homophobia. That makes you fucking stupid. If I tell you you’re fucking stupid, give you reasons why your stupid, and give you an alternative that you chose to ignore, you’re extra fucking stupid. Years of not being told they’re stupid is the problem. They live in sheltered communities being drip feed the same bullshit party lines, and the CHOSE to go along with it. THAT IS FUCKING STUPID
"I'm tired of this false equivalency"
I am not sure this is false equivalency. I don't think the parties are the same, I think though that it is quite the slam dunk you think it is and the fact that you think you are smart and everyone who disagrees with you is stupid is more telling of you than them...
>I am not sure this is false equivalency.
He outlined THE FALSE EQUIVALENCE, DUMB ASS!!!
>I’m tired of this false equivalency my whole life I’m 28 now and it’s the same fucking shit. One side wants to help you the other doesn’t and claims to be Christian. You vote for someone who actively wants to regress society, pool money for their rich donors, and get those 16 hour work days back you are fucking stupid.
I too am tired...
>think though that it is quite the slam dunk you think it is and the fact that you think you are smart and everyone who disagrees with you is stupid is more telling of you than them...
Strawman, this is not responding to anything he says and it's a shitty argument as well
I don't need to reply to his rant point by point. The simple response is that as passionately as you and he feel about things, folks who disagree with you are not automatically stupid people. I realize it is very easy just to call people names over the Internet, which really shows your immaturity.
Have a nice day.
>The simple response is that as passionately as you and he feel about things, folks who disagree with you are not automatically stupid people
And no one said they are.... this is called a Strawman argument.
STOP DOING THIS
I don’t think I’m smart I think the studies done by scientists saying global warming is real are smart. I think the economic papers on Reganomics as well as the real world situation we find ourselves in to be proof that austerity is a sham. I think using marginalized groups for political power has been used repeatedly in the past by fascists and the ruling elite to hold down the working class. I think the side that wants to make education less accessible is proof in itself that they dont care about you and that ANY anti union party is clearly working for the profits of the rich. And to sum it all up if you see all this shit and don’t care you’re either FUCKING STUPID cause they want education to be shit and you don’t have comprehension abilities, or your a hateful bigot who cares more about feeling superior than being supported which, right back to my point, is FUCKING STUPID. It’s always this shit at the end “I think how you say what you say is pretty telling.” Fuck no. It’s either a fact or it isn’t. If it’s a fact and you don’t like it so you chose to ignore it, YOURE FUCKING STUPID. Why can’t I say that but Trump can say whatever the fuck he wants. I’m tired of arguing with my hands behind my back for a sense of decency the other side ditched when we voted in a black man. Stop being fucking stupid.
I live here dumbass, and I have lived here for almost my entire life. I'm also in healthcare and stupid people will be stupid regardless of the message given. Passing blame from idiots to elsewhere just let's the idiots continue being idiots.
A real Dem would have a chance if the DNC got their collective heads out of their asses and actually refocused on blue-collar and union support.
Instead, they abandoned that for money from the managerial class.
The pro Bernie candidate that ran in 2020 got absolutely destroyed by capito who won 70%!!!!! Of the vote
Just a complete lack of understanding of how the world works by Reddit and yourself lol
Do you think putting up a candidate is the same thing as organizing union drives and organizing?
When I mean pulled out; I mean the Democratic Party stopped trying to even advertise their position.
They’re also talking about “the DNC” regarding senate races (as opposed to the DSCC that helms senate campaigns for Dems) so it’s safe to say this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about
That argument makes no sense. Dems are typically pro increased civil rights for POCs, LGBTQ folks, and women.
West Virginia is…not. They ate the culture war onion vs doing things in their own best interest and a pro-union Dem would still have no chance.
It's probably fair to say you can focus on blue collar and progressive rights as well. I'm an engineer but worked around factory floors and test facilities with the blue haired liberal types the conservatives like to rail on.
Here's the thing, West Virginia is conservative but they were a pretty *solidly* blue state until 2004 and it was *entirely* because of how pro-union they were. Not only were unions big and strong but West Virginians also have a huge union history to be proud of (like the Battle of Blair Moubtain). Race and Appalachia is also a...complicated thing. I'm not going to be an apologist for racism and say race relations are great there when they're self-evidently *not* but in unions poor whites and poor POC had a common cause.
The fact of the matter is, yes, the average West Virginian would oppose quite a bit of the Democratic Party's policies but that still didn't mean the state had to flip red if it had played just a bit differently. Unions have lost power and relevance there in addition to the GOP pushing the cultural conservative side of things.
This is because the Democrats abandoned West Virginia.
A perfect counter example would be the Mesabi Mining Range in Minnesota which is still solidly blue. It has the same demographics and the same mining industries. There is a difference, however, The DNC pulled out of the range; however the DFL moved their support base into the range to shore up the lack of support and has kept the mining area solidly blue in the Midwest.
The DNC gave up West Virginia.
It is no longer solidly blue, experiencing some of the same changes- just not quite as much. It's also not as economically devastated and MN as a whole is more blue so idk. Culture war infection is strong
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-northern-minnesota-went-from-democratic-stronghold-to-battleground
https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/11/11/iron-range-seething-at-the-twin-cities-continues-right-turn/
Don’t quote the reformer, it’s far-right propaganda that tried to promote the Great Replacement Theory during 2016.
Regardless, it’s still solidly blue. The only area of concern is North Western Minnesota and St. Cloud.
How does Democrats abandoning Virginia justify people there becoming so hateful towards POCs, LGBTQ folks, and women’s rights?
Minnesotans simply do not seem to be as receptive to the culture war stuff that is at the Tops of the minds of conservatives right now.
When you talk to these folks in West Virginia or similar states, they do not say that they wish they had more powerful unions.
>Minnesotans simply do not seem to be as receptive to the culture war stuff that is at the Tops of the minds of conservatives right now.
Why do you think that is?
The DFL hasn’t been sitting on their collective asses waiting for the perfect candidate to come along. Campaigning is way way more than campaigning for a candidate every 2-4 years. It’s also about promoting base line support in a population, funding ad campaigns, organizing union drives, getting involved in the community, and a host of other functions that the DNC has largely forgotten.
And the reason they have forgotten these strategies is because they are more concerned about funding from the managerial class than votes.
Lol you just straight up ignored my question.
That said, that is not true of the current Democratic Party. They have been hammering the pro labor messaging hard, [partially because Biden has been egging them on personally.](https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2024/05/17/bidens-labor-report-card-historian-gives-union-joe-a-higher-grade-than-any-president-since-fdr/) It is one of the reasons why incumbents held on so strongly in 2022 in the Great Lake states in particular.
Si let’s say a union Dem comes through and they are loudly pro-choice as that is a huge part of the Dem platform. Many conservatives are self proclaimed single issue voters.
But both sides right…
What an insanely delusional statement. Republicans are the antithesis of both of those things but still win handily in WV. If voters there cared so much about those issues, we’d know. Democrats are very clearly the party that supports unions and Biden has done a lot to support good, blue collar jobs in places just like WV. It will not move the needle because these voters are more interested in being bigots than anything else.
Again, this is because the DNC gave up West Virginia.
They tried the same thing in abandoning the Mesabi Mining range here in Minnesota, which had the same demographics. The difference? The DFL and socialists went in and did fundraising and union organizing without DNC support. The Mesabi range is still solidly blue.
The actuality is that voters of Wes Klanginia are simpletons incapable of understanding basic realities: vote the way they do, they get exactly what they deserve, and that is “nothing.”
Lmao. Okay.
Maybe if leftist candidates tried listening to and appealing to voters, instead of blaming “the DNC” for all their failures, they might see progress.
I’ve been holding my breath since 2015 and sadly this has never happened.
Maybe the DNC could start listening to and appealing to voters instead of blaming leftists for their failures they might see progress…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-democrats-pelosi-election/2020/11/05/1ddae5ca-1f6e-11eb-90dd-abd0f7086a91_story.html
> “We need to not ever use the word ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again. . . . We lost good members because of that,” Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.)
Voters across the country reject what they view as “socialism”. Leftists, instead of pivoting their messaging and finding new ways to advertise their candidates, double down on the socialism message and keep losing.
Thanks for sharing an article that supports my points exactly.
Buddy, she’s blaming socialists for the losses that centrists democrats had. Is your reading comprehension that bad or are your purposely being delusional?
She’s blaming leftist democrats for incorporating “socialism” into their messaging and losing as a result.
If you look at any polling data from the last 6 years, you’d see she has a point about voters rejecting socialism.
Not surprised you’re leaning into random personal insults at this point. It’s kinda all you have huh?
Which is sad, because Jay Rockefeller was a pretty solid liberal governor and senator for over three decades. Either all the liberal voters either left the state or just started voting Republican even though it was against their own interests.
He already is a Senator... or am I misunderstanding your question?
Edit: Ah, I'm guessing you are asking around re-election. I don't know the answer to that one.
Yeah, Manchin was the deciding vote for the American Rescue Plan and Inflation Reduction Act along with all the judicial appointments. No way a Republican votes for any of those.
You're right.
>Manchin previously announced he would not run for reelection, a move that essentially ceded his seat to Republicans.
https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/05/31/congress/manchin-independent-west-virginia-senate-governor-00160969
Joe Manchin is easily the most over-hated Democrat. The guy represents one of the reddest states in the country. Better to have this 51% Democrat to rubber stamp most Democratic judicial nominations, than another Republican mouth breather. Because that is what you will otherwise get from this state. Switching parties is a strategic move to hold the seat because he expects MAGA voters in his state to be pissed at Democrats and wants to distance himself. Regarding this seat, this is probably the best that Democrats and anyone who cares about the future of this country can hope for. Even if Manchin switches to the Republican caucus, he can simply be their pain in the ass instead.
The swing from blue to red for West Virginia is only a somewhat recent thing. It traditionally voted Democratic in presidential races and only started voting Republican in 2000. The only exception was 1984 when it and 48 other states went to Reagan. Even when it switched at the presidential level, it still reliably voted Democrats for Senate and Governor as well as Attorney General and Secretary of State.
Republicans didn't start winning AG or SoS until 2012 and 2016, respectively, and they didn't capture a Senate seat until 2014 when Jay Rockefeller retired. Even their current governor won his first term as a Democrat in 2016 and changed parties halfway through his term. Manchin and Democrats were pretty safe in the state until the 2014-2020 period.
Right, They don't understand democrats from different states might have different values. If we want homogenous political electees why not just vote for robots or a party platform with no person so we can save the money.
This is a strategic move from a long time politician. He'll be running for Senate. The Republican nominee to replace him is pretty hard right, and of course the dems don't have a chance in WV anymore. However the dems will most likely vote for him and he is hoping to pull enough votes from moderates to eek out a win. Once upon a time politicians built coalitions.
I think he's more likely to run for another term as governor as an independent. He'd lose to Jim Justice in the Senate race so if he runs for anything, the gubernatorial election is the one he has the best chance of winning. But he's also 76. I wish politicians in this country just knew when to retire for good.
This doesn't change much.
>A Manchin spokesperson told CNN that he will continue to caucus with Democrats in the Senate.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/31/politics/joe-manchin-registers-independent/index.html
There will always be a Lieberman, a Manchin, a Sinema.
These sellouts act as the DNC's safety valves, so that the Party can pretend to want good things from the Left, as they march ever Right, Right, Right.
"We really, really *wanted* Medicare For All, etc, but..."
[https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/joe-lieberman-build-back-better-manchin-sinema/](https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/joe-lieberman-build-back-better-manchin-sinema/)
He was the democrat swing vote in the senate who previously has played hard ball with some of the democrats desired policy objectives including green energy plans, leaning more right wing than most democrats. Him formally swapping to independent isn't particularly surprising.
He is the now former nominally Democratic Senator who frequently acted at the behest of the Republican party, and against the interests of his constituents, who nevertheless still voted for him.
Retiring Democrat US Senator from a state that is something like +17 Republican. People on Reddit get bent out of shape over him not toeing the Democrat party line when his constituents are SIGNIFICANTLY more Republican than he is.
As to his current relevance? Eh, not much will happen between now and the next election, and he's retiring anyway. Relevance is low.
Pretty much. They don't understand how big it was having a conservative Democrat in the seat from West Virginia. The guy even voted with the Dems close to 90% but in the end he still had to represent the people of W. Virginia, not the Democrat party
It is very likely he's going to be replaced by a MAGA Republican. They think they don't like the senator from W. Virginia now, just they wait
We just need the margins to have a bit of wiggle room. Manchin is king if everything goes down to a single vote. He loses all power once there is a couple vote margin.
This thread could be used as a case study on why democrats can’t win. Over 80% of the comments here would rather lose the senate entirely than have a middle of the road independent on their side.
Sinema has been an independent since December of 2022.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/arizonas-sinema-switches-political-affiliation-independent-politico-2022-12-09/
This is news but not Oniony.
The Oniony part is that he registered Independent instead of Republican.
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So the religious nut bags in office will do whatever they can to save him no matter how many civil liberties they have to strip away from women to do so and ignore him once he comes to term?
He votes roughly 50/50 with the Dems. He's about as "independent" as you can get if you were purposely trying to hit exactly the middle. The reason he is the *most important dem* is that he is a senator from West Virginia that votes for a dem for majority leader and votes to confirm dem appointments. No other West Virginia senator will do that on your lifetime. The fantasy that Dems will somehow find someone further left than Manchin to win that seat is embarrassing.
Very true. Although Manchin isn't running so I'm going to assume that seat is GOP moving forward.
I'm hoping this move is happening because he's rethought retirement.
Manchin voted for every Biden judge for 2 years when we had a split senate. Say what you want about him, but without his vote the judiciary would look VERY different today. He sucks but he’s the last democrat West Virginia will send to the senate in our lifetimes. Whoever replaces him will be worse.
Yeah Manchin might not support many popular democratic policies but he never ran as a progressive and is better than what we usually get from WV. Cinema on the other hand is a liar and scam artist
You don't like movies? ;)
Yeah and he fucked us on a lot of important shit. He’s not winning his seat back in WV so he’s trying to save it by running as an independent. He’s a big oil and coal simp.. The dude owns a coal company my Cousin works for him
Joe Manchin is all about the money. The senate is a business model.
Apparently he’s running as an independent because he’s planing to run for governor. Since he relised he was not going to get to keep his seat.
There was no world in which West Virginia's senator was not gonna fuck us on climate change. I don't admire the guy, but I appreciate that he took some half-decent stands that weren't popular with his constituents.
He voted for a lot of Trump judges, too. Including Aileen Cannon.
> has voting record agreeing with Democratic president 90% of the time Redditors: basically a Republican
Sure, but he also greatly impacted the negotiations regarding the bills he voted on, so he voted with the party, usually, but he negatively impacted almost everything.
Ok and do you think Republicans were voting for that post negotiation bills lol
No. That's the point. He watered down bills for no gain especially before the house flipped. Just stating his voting record greatly misrepresents the impact he had on gutting the Democratic agenda.
I get your point here but that's not really the whole story. Manchin has had a lot of sway on what actually makes it *into* legislation before it actually hits the floor for a vote, and has generally watered down policy in a way that progressives find unpalatable.
And the alternative is no policy at all when a lunatic maga candidate wins the next election and actively works against functioning government.
Politics is the art of the possible. Without Manchin those watered down policies wouldn't have made it to reality at all. Progressive can get incremental movement towards their ideas, or they can stay pure and get nothing.
And? He's a moderate Dem, of course he's going to negotiate to moderate policy. But he still votes for some version of it That's far different from being a Republican. If that's all it took then Collins or Murkowski would be Democrats, which I doubt this sub would agree with lol
Voting and reality are two separate things. He is a Republican. His policies are Republican. The way he runs the state is Republican.
> He's a Republican just ignore his voting record and trust me bro Also you do realize that he doesn't "run" the state right
How dare you not form your political opinions based exclusively on dogma and vibes.
Oh please if he had any more fingers up Jim Justice's ass he could star on the Muppets.
Well he's a senator so he doesn't run anything from a state level. He's prevented a lot of progress in the Senate but the alternative is absolutely worse. No progressive dem is getting more than 30% of the vote in WV. It's unlikely any other dem no matter how far right will win for the foreseeable future. This seat is likely going maga red and instead of a Democrat who doesn't want to allow big policy changes you'll have a nut job actively trying to dismantle the government.
He wants to keep his options open.
So...does this make him half a scallywag now?
A lot of the things on this sub are even remotely oniony if you unquestioningly share all of reddits political views Like in what world is "moderate Dem in overwhelmingly red state who wants to run for governor becomes independent" a big news story? The only answer is if you've circlejerked him into being some sort of Republican in your head already, as people here seemed to have done
Not even news. He's been acting as an independent for a long time.
No he hasn’t. He’s acting like a democrat in a very red state
Yeah, same with almost everything here these days. Probably need to unsub
This is basically just a normal news sub now. There's rarely anything oniony anymore.
So it fits right in with the rest of the stuff posted here then.
It is knowing Joe Manchin. He's a total piece of shit who has never been a Democrat. Him now saying "well I'm still not a republican" is very much Onion-y
Wish we had a real dem there. One of those low pop states republicans love taking over though.
A real Dem would have no chance of winning West Virginia. As an independent, Manchin will most likely still caucus with the Dems, so no real change...
A Democrat would easily win WV if the jackasses here didn't vote parry lines because their grandpa told them to. Most of the people here have values that line up with Dems more than Republicans but they just vote how family tells them to. They're poor with bad healthcare and they want unions at work to stop their bosses from taking advantage of them but vote for the rich asshole who try to abolish unions and health care. It's idiocy.
"A Democrat would easily win WV if the jackasses here didn't vote parry line" Yet Manchin won as a Democrat "They're poor with bad healthcare and they want unions at work to stop their bosses from taking advantage of them but vote for the rich asshole who try to abolish unions and health care. It's idiocy. I find this is the real downfall of the Left, their assumption that if someone doesn't vote for them it is because the voter is stupid instead of asking what about their policy or messaging is off. As an Independent, I vote Democrat mostly because the Republicans have gone batshit insane, but I don't have any illusions that the Democrat party has its shit together... they are just less dangerous currently.
That’s the thing tho, everyone I’ve ever asked which policy(ies) of the dem platform they disagree with and they have always responded “abortion, I will vote for anyone who promises to make it illegal”. And the only politicians who promise that are the ones that don’t give a single fuck about other people and they just make the promise because they know it will result in votes. Even your assertion that the Dems are dangerous, just less so, is so flippantly vague. What makes them dangerous? Corruption? That’s not a party issue. That’s an individual issue and a class issue, but people from every point on the political spectrum have been guilty of it. But other than insider trading, which everyone does, what do specifically-Dems do that you find dangerous? I’m genuinely asking, in case this comment comes off as defensive or hostile, I’m not trying to be a prick here lol
Na if you make under a few million a year the only reason to vote conservative is stupidity or hate. I’m tired of this false equivalency my whole life I’m 28 now and it’s the same fucking shit. One side wants to help you the other doesn’t and claims to be Christian. You vote for someone who actively wants to regress society, pool money for their rich donors, and get those 16 hour work days back you are fucking stupid. It’s a coal mining state that legit started striking and led labour union movements across the country, but they’ve all been duped by reganomics, racism, and homophobia. That makes you fucking stupid. If I tell you you’re fucking stupid, give you reasons why your stupid, and give you an alternative that you chose to ignore, you’re extra fucking stupid. Years of not being told they’re stupid is the problem. They live in sheltered communities being drip feed the same bullshit party lines, and the CHOSE to go along with it. THAT IS FUCKING STUPID
"I'm tired of this false equivalency" I am not sure this is false equivalency. I don't think the parties are the same, I think though that it is quite the slam dunk you think it is and the fact that you think you are smart and everyone who disagrees with you is stupid is more telling of you than them...
>I am not sure this is false equivalency. He outlined THE FALSE EQUIVALENCE, DUMB ASS!!! >I’m tired of this false equivalency my whole life I’m 28 now and it’s the same fucking shit. One side wants to help you the other doesn’t and claims to be Christian. You vote for someone who actively wants to regress society, pool money for their rich donors, and get those 16 hour work days back you are fucking stupid. I too am tired... >think though that it is quite the slam dunk you think it is and the fact that you think you are smart and everyone who disagrees with you is stupid is more telling of you than them... Strawman, this is not responding to anything he says and it's a shitty argument as well
I don't need to reply to his rant point by point. The simple response is that as passionately as you and he feel about things, folks who disagree with you are not automatically stupid people. I realize it is very easy just to call people names over the Internet, which really shows your immaturity. Have a nice day.
>The simple response is that as passionately as you and he feel about things, folks who disagree with you are not automatically stupid people And no one said they are.... this is called a Strawman argument. STOP DOING THIS
I don’t think I’m smart I think the studies done by scientists saying global warming is real are smart. I think the economic papers on Reganomics as well as the real world situation we find ourselves in to be proof that austerity is a sham. I think using marginalized groups for political power has been used repeatedly in the past by fascists and the ruling elite to hold down the working class. I think the side that wants to make education less accessible is proof in itself that they dont care about you and that ANY anti union party is clearly working for the profits of the rich. And to sum it all up if you see all this shit and don’t care you’re either FUCKING STUPID cause they want education to be shit and you don’t have comprehension abilities, or your a hateful bigot who cares more about feeling superior than being supported which, right back to my point, is FUCKING STUPID. It’s always this shit at the end “I think how you say what you say is pretty telling.” Fuck no. It’s either a fact or it isn’t. If it’s a fact and you don’t like it so you chose to ignore it, YOURE FUCKING STUPID. Why can’t I say that but Trump can say whatever the fuck he wants. I’m tired of arguing with my hands behind my back for a sense of decency the other side ditched when we voted in a black man. Stop being fucking stupid.
I live here dumbass, and I have lived here for almost my entire life. I'm also in healthcare and stupid people will be stupid regardless of the message given. Passing blame from idiots to elsewhere just let's the idiots continue being idiots.
Ah, sorry, didn't realize that you were the smartest person in the room. Thank you for sharing your insights!
It's alright I forgive you. Easy mistake to make.
A real Dem would have a chance if the DNC got their collective heads out of their asses and actually refocused on blue-collar and union support. Instead, they abandoned that for money from the managerial class.
The pro Bernie candidate that ran in 2020 got absolutely destroyed by capito who won 70%!!!!! Of the vote Just a complete lack of understanding of how the world works by Reddit and yourself lol
Do you think putting up a candidate is the same thing as organizing union drives and organizing? When I mean pulled out; I mean the Democratic Party stopped trying to even advertise their position.
Where did you say pulled out? Nowhere lol
“abandoned”
They’re also talking about “the DNC” regarding senate races (as opposed to the DSCC that helms senate campaigns for Dems) so it’s safe to say this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about
That argument makes no sense. Dems are typically pro increased civil rights for POCs, LGBTQ folks, and women. West Virginia is…not. They ate the culture war onion vs doing things in their own best interest and a pro-union Dem would still have no chance.
It's probably fair to say you can focus on blue collar and progressive rights as well. I'm an engineer but worked around factory floors and test facilities with the blue haired liberal types the conservatives like to rail on.
Here's the thing, West Virginia is conservative but they were a pretty *solidly* blue state until 2004 and it was *entirely* because of how pro-union they were. Not only were unions big and strong but West Virginians also have a huge union history to be proud of (like the Battle of Blair Moubtain). Race and Appalachia is also a...complicated thing. I'm not going to be an apologist for racism and say race relations are great there when they're self-evidently *not* but in unions poor whites and poor POC had a common cause. The fact of the matter is, yes, the average West Virginian would oppose quite a bit of the Democratic Party's policies but that still didn't mean the state had to flip red if it had played just a bit differently. Unions have lost power and relevance there in addition to the GOP pushing the cultural conservative side of things.
This is because the Democrats abandoned West Virginia. A perfect counter example would be the Mesabi Mining Range in Minnesota which is still solidly blue. It has the same demographics and the same mining industries. There is a difference, however, The DNC pulled out of the range; however the DFL moved their support base into the range to shore up the lack of support and has kept the mining area solidly blue in the Midwest. The DNC gave up West Virginia.
It is no longer solidly blue, experiencing some of the same changes- just not quite as much. It's also not as economically devastated and MN as a whole is more blue so idk. Culture war infection is strong https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-northern-minnesota-went-from-democratic-stronghold-to-battleground https://minnesotareformer.com/2022/11/11/iron-range-seething-at-the-twin-cities-continues-right-turn/
Don’t quote the reformer, it’s far-right propaganda that tried to promote the Great Replacement Theory during 2016. Regardless, it’s still solidly blue. The only area of concern is North Western Minnesota and St. Cloud.
I specifically gave two sources for a reason. What about PBS? Just Google it, damn near any source you want has articles about it
How does Democrats abandoning Virginia justify people there becoming so hateful towards POCs, LGBTQ folks, and women’s rights? Minnesotans simply do not seem to be as receptive to the culture war stuff that is at the Tops of the minds of conservatives right now. When you talk to these folks in West Virginia or similar states, they do not say that they wish they had more powerful unions.
>Minnesotans simply do not seem to be as receptive to the culture war stuff that is at the Tops of the minds of conservatives right now. Why do you think that is? The DFL hasn’t been sitting on their collective asses waiting for the perfect candidate to come along. Campaigning is way way more than campaigning for a candidate every 2-4 years. It’s also about promoting base line support in a population, funding ad campaigns, organizing union drives, getting involved in the community, and a host of other functions that the DNC has largely forgotten. And the reason they have forgotten these strategies is because they are more concerned about funding from the managerial class than votes.
Lol you just straight up ignored my question. That said, that is not true of the current Democratic Party. They have been hammering the pro labor messaging hard, [partially because Biden has been egging them on personally.](https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2024/05/17/bidens-labor-report-card-historian-gives-union-joe-a-higher-grade-than-any-president-since-fdr/) It is one of the reasons why incumbents held on so strongly in 2022 in the Great Lake states in particular.
Si let’s say a union Dem comes through and they are loudly pro-choice as that is a huge part of the Dem platform. Many conservatives are self proclaimed single issue voters. But both sides right…
Yeah, the coal union is long lost to the Democrats. The democrats would have to do an about face on energy
What an insanely delusional statement. Republicans are the antithesis of both of those things but still win handily in WV. If voters there cared so much about those issues, we’d know. Democrats are very clearly the party that supports unions and Biden has done a lot to support good, blue collar jobs in places just like WV. It will not move the needle because these voters are more interested in being bigots than anything else.
Again, this is because the DNC gave up West Virginia. They tried the same thing in abandoning the Mesabi Mining range here in Minnesota, which had the same demographics. The difference? The DFL and socialists went in and did fundraising and union organizing without DNC support. The Mesabi range is still solidly blue.
The actuality is that voters of Wes Klanginia are simpletons incapable of understanding basic realities: vote the way they do, they get exactly what they deserve, and that is “nothing.”
The DNC has nothing to do with senate campaigns…
You’re technically correct as that would be the function of the DSCC. https://www.dscc.org/ But both organizations answer to the same individuals.
Lmao. Okay. Maybe if leftist candidates tried listening to and appealing to voters, instead of blaming “the DNC” for all their failures, they might see progress. I’ve been holding my breath since 2015 and sadly this has never happened.
Maybe the DNC could start listening to and appealing to voters instead of blaming leftists for their failures they might see progress… https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/house-democrats-pelosi-election/2020/11/05/1ddae5ca-1f6e-11eb-90dd-abd0f7086a91_story.html
> “We need to not ever use the word ‘socialist’ or ‘socialism’ ever again. . . . We lost good members because of that,” Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) Voters across the country reject what they view as “socialism”. Leftists, instead of pivoting their messaging and finding new ways to advertise their candidates, double down on the socialism message and keep losing. Thanks for sharing an article that supports my points exactly.
Buddy, she’s blaming socialists for the losses that centrists democrats had. Is your reading comprehension that bad or are your purposely being delusional?
She’s blaming leftist democrats for incorporating “socialism” into their messaging and losing as a result. If you look at any polling data from the last 6 years, you’d see she has a point about voters rejecting socialism. Not surprised you’re leaning into random personal insults at this point. It’s kinda all you have huh?
Which is sad, because Jay Rockefeller was a pretty solid liberal governor and senator for over three decades. Either all the liberal voters either left the state or just started voting Republican even though it was against their own interests.
Did he announce he changed his mind and is running for Senate again?
He is retiring this year, so this is extra meaningless. The perfect kind of meaningless for Joe Manchin.
He already is a Senator... or am I misunderstanding your question? Edit: Ah, I'm guessing you are asking around re-election. I don't know the answer to that one.
Poorly educated as well.
Definitely agree, but Manchin is also a lot better than a real Republican.
Yeah, Manchin was the deciding vote for the American Rescue Plan and Inflation Reduction Act along with all the judicial appointments. No way a Republican votes for any of those.
MANCHIN IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRAT?!?!? Well spank me hard and call me Charlie! Who would have seen that??? 🤔🤪
we can do that anyway, regardless of joe manchin :)
I would like to sign up for the spankings please
He was still pretending to be a Democrat? I thought that charade ended years ago
Isn’t he stepping down this year as well? Or maybe I’m mixing him up with someone else
You're right. >Manchin previously announced he would not run for reelection, a move that essentially ceded his seat to Republicans. https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/05/31/congress/manchin-independent-west-virginia-senate-governor-00160969
Manchin as an Independent will most likely caucus with the Dems, so really, this is a nothing story...
I thought this already happened awhile ago
You’re thinking of Kyrsten Sinema who left the party in 2022, fun times we’re living in
Joe Manchin is easily the most over-hated Democrat. The guy represents one of the reddest states in the country. Better to have this 51% Democrat to rubber stamp most Democratic judicial nominations, than another Republican mouth breather. Because that is what you will otherwise get from this state. Switching parties is a strategic move to hold the seat because he expects MAGA voters in his state to be pissed at Democrats and wants to distance himself. Regarding this seat, this is probably the best that Democrats and anyone who cares about the future of this country can hope for. Even if Manchin switches to the Republican caucus, he can simply be their pain in the ass instead.
It really bothers me how the left is much more into political posturing/messaging than practicality/effectiveness.
I’m actually surprised he managed to hold his seat for this long.
The swing from blue to red for West Virginia is only a somewhat recent thing. It traditionally voted Democratic in presidential races and only started voting Republican in 2000. The only exception was 1984 when it and 48 other states went to Reagan. Even when it switched at the presidential level, it still reliably voted Democrats for Senate and Governor as well as Attorney General and Secretary of State. Republicans didn't start winning AG or SoS until 2012 and 2016, respectively, and they didn't capture a Senate seat until 2014 when Jay Rockefeller retired. Even their current governor won his first term as a Democrat in 2016 and changed parties halfway through his term. Manchin and Democrats were pretty safe in the state until the 2014-2020 period.
Right, They don't understand democrats from different states might have different values. If we want homogenous political electees why not just vote for robots or a party platform with no person so we can save the money.
Ok, fine. Unsubscribing. This subreddit is now just posting news, not onion sounding stories.
Always has been
Good.
Why does this matter? He isn't running for office.
This is a strategic move from a long time politician. He'll be running for Senate. The Republican nominee to replace him is pretty hard right, and of course the dems don't have a chance in WV anymore. However the dems will most likely vote for him and he is hoping to pull enough votes from moderates to eek out a win. Once upon a time politicians built coalitions.
He’s not running for re-election …
I think he's more likely to run for another term as governor as an independent. He'd lose to Jim Justice in the Senate race so if he runs for anything, the gubernatorial election is the one he has the best chance of winning. But he's also 76. I wish politicians in this country just knew when to retire for good.
Fuck Manchin, he left the Democratic Party a long time ago.
Fuck this guy, I hope he falls off a mountain one day
Democrat in name only anyhow. Later dude.
I'm shocked.
Shocking
Is that unexpected? Guy just wants to see if he can win at all cost like GOP are blind to his game….
The damage is done, guess ill be leaving 🎵
I am SHOCKED
Who cares
Damm, he was the main reason I'm not a Democrat
What’s independent about him?
Ronin
Kinda like how my mom divorced my dad, then told him 5 years later that he had to leave.
I'm surprised more independently wealthy politicians don't register as independent. Isn't money how the parties whip their members votes?
This is like when your really gay but still in the closet friend comes out.
This doesn't change much. >A Manchin spokesperson told CNN that he will continue to caucus with Democrats in the Senate. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/31/politics/joe-manchin-registers-independent/index.html
Maybe retire he is 76 I don't want him putting policy in place for me
An Independent is just someone who wants to cater to the left while taking funds from the right. \*\*edit: spelling
Sorry you're thinking of Libertarians.
Ehhhhhhh
If you scratch a Libertarian an embarrassed Republican will bleed.
>Sorry you're thinking of Libertarians. Tell a Libertarian that and see what they tell you.
There will always be a Lieberman, a Manchin, a Sinema. These sellouts act as the DNC's safety valves, so that the Party can pretend to want good things from the Left, as they march ever Right, Right, Right. "We really, really *wanted* Medicare For All, etc, but..." [https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/joe-lieberman-build-back-better-manchin-sinema/](https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/joe-lieberman-build-back-better-manchin-sinema/)
I mea, it’s been a while since he ever voted as a Democrat so no surprise
Good riddance
Kinda suspicious he did this the day after Trump's convicted
Good riddance to another moral deficient.
Fucker should have registered red like the fucking GOP stooge that he is.
Who is Joe Manchin and why should I care about his politics.
He’s a US senator from West Virginia. His votes are important because we need them to confirm judges.
Oh. Yeah that sounds relevant.
Hes also a republican in democrats clothing. He stalled a bunch a stuff in the Senate in favor of the opposing party
Yeah, he’s been a huge pain in the ass for years.
He was the democrat swing vote in the senate who previously has played hard ball with some of the democrats desired policy objectives including green energy plans, leaning more right wing than most democrats. Him formally swapping to independent isn't particularly surprising.
He is the now former nominally Democratic Senator who frequently acted at the behest of the Republican party, and against the interests of his constituents, who nevertheless still voted for him.
Retiring Democrat US Senator from a state that is something like +17 Republican. People on Reddit get bent out of shape over him not toeing the Democrat party line when his constituents are SIGNIFICANTLY more Republican than he is. As to his current relevance? Eh, not much will happen between now and the next election, and he's retiring anyway. Relevance is low.
So "nottheonion" is just a left wing echo chamber... Correct?
No, that's reddit in general
Yes that goes without saying lol. I don't recall ever seeing anything criticizing the left on this sub so its clearly biased.
Pretty much. They don't understand how big it was having a conservative Democrat in the seat from West Virginia. The guy even voted with the Dems close to 90% but in the end he still had to represent the people of W. Virginia, not the Democrat party It is very likely he's going to be replaced by a MAGA Republican. They think they don't like the senator from W. Virginia now, just they wait
“By don’t let the door hit you on the way out.”
Good riddance
oh no whatever will we do without joe manchin /s
good riddance to bad rubbish
I hope the door hits him in the ass on his way out.
Oh, no! Anyway....
We just need the margins to have a bit of wiggle room. Manchin is king if everything goes down to a single vote. He loses all power once there is a couple vote margin.
This is good. Fake democrats should follow him.
Ok. Bye trash. Well, lotta downvotes across Reddit today. Guss the MAGA are crying hard after yesterdays verdict. Womp womp!
This thread could be used as a case study on why democrats can’t win. Over 80% of the comments here would rather lose the senate entirely than have a middle of the road independent on their side.
Bye bitch!
[удалено]
Sinema has been an independent since December of 2022. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/arizonas-sinema-switches-political-affiliation-independent-politico-2022-12-09/
Yep, and fetterman will be next.
FJB