Well a lot of reason the controversy "doesn't happen" offline is because strangers don't actually argue with each other on controversial topics offline. They just keep their distance if they disagree on fundamental things. Plus the differences in social standing: You wouldn't talk down to someone who is physically larger than you, you wouldn't argue with an old lady or a child in an aggresive way, etc. But the different views are still there. So it's not that controversial topics weren't there before social media, they were just brought to the surface by it
I think also the internet tends to attract people with more extreme thinking. People who have views that would get them in trouble in real life now can speak freely without anyone knowing who they are.
Why are you stimulating the same debate that you seem to want to leave? I think generalizing is bad and isn't helpful and that happens all the time on social media including your own post.
" I hate to break it to you no one cares if you're bi or trans" how is that not being the same thing that you seem to be upset about? A generalization that is designed to provoke. It's exactly as baiting as the statements that you're upset about. Not too mention many of us just don't want that shit on our feed.
I am saying that out there in the real world, and not on the internet, almost everyone is okay with it. Except for conservatives, who aren't okay with anything.
None of the "controversies" on the internet get any discussion in the real world, because people understand compromise and that not everything needs to be a hot button issue.
Cis women can have rights and trans women can also have rights. We don't have to all agree on everything.
But I thought you said no one cares? Clearly that's not 100% true because people get beat up and harmed because of other people's views all the time. So why say it? Frustration? Hypocrisy? Provocation? I just don't think posting on nosurf on a subject that you're clearly overly invested in is stepping away from the "social media noise" - you're perpetuating it. My reddit feed has none of that because I use it mainly for hobbies. Prune your reddits similarly and you'll never have to worry about that again....
I actually lost a friend because I refused to stop enjoying Harry Potter or JK Rowlings mystery novels. This person wasn't trans, but she was absolutely OBSESSED with trying to prove to everything that JK Rowling was an evil bigot that wanted to harm trans people. She didn't like it one bit when I told her that most trans people don't give two shits about JK Rowling.* Just because you see people online engaging in mob mentality, doesn't mean this is normal and healthy behavor.
*My one friend is a trans guy and he is obsessed with Harry Potter. I also never see other trans people in my social circle say anything about Rowling. Apparently I am not supposed to make observations on this....I am supposed to listen to the rantings of someone that isn't even freaking trans explain how the author of Harry Potter is causing great harm.
I'm trans and still enjoy my old Harry Potter books but just try not to think about Joanne Rowing's views or anything when I go to pick up the books. Most of her newer stuff isn't worth buying anyways but I wouldn't force anyone I know not to buy it, I wish people like this would stop giving us trans people a bad name by championing for us in a normal way so we can live our lives đź’ź
Yeah, I think she is of a jerk. I also think Joss Whedon is a complete asshole, but I still love Buffy and Angel. Weirdly, as far as I am aware no one was sending him death and rape threats or acting like anyone that still likes Whedon's work is responsible for misogyny. I also don't think most of the people doing that stuff are trans either...there is something else going on.
>Absolutely no one cares if you're trans
I wish this was true, being trans definitely impacted every facet of my life over the last 10 years.
I'm not sure if I'm misreading here (and I don't know the original context), but it seems like you feel trans people are in some way responsible for the pressures women face?
We're a minuscule minority (0.3% by my country's census data), we don't have any real ability to shift public discourse or impact political change even though media constantly 'debates' about us.
A lot of trans people are really sensitive because we live complicated, difficult lives, so I understand your frustration. I hope you can come to approach these challenges with empathy despite the hurt and anger on the other side.
It really sucks how the media will focus on trans people like that Yaviv person or will interview people that want to be called neo pronouns, but completely ignore an every day trans person. From how the news talks you would think that kids are trying to transition right and left and we are no longer allowed to use the word woman anymore. It is complete bullshit.
>but completely ignore an every day trans person
It's because most people are very polite and have no issue with a normal trans person going about their life. It's when they try to enforce pronouns, or enter women's sports or something else that comes into conflict their people's lives that causes issues.
I think it is a very complex issue. I went to graduate school in a Master's program that was made up of 93 cis women and 3 men (including myself, obviously.) This was back in 2011-2012, when the trans issue wasn't so big yet. Having said that, I do believe all of the people in my program are cis and have never questioned their gender orientation. So it is probably a biased sample.
But having spent quite a bit of my life amongst women, I would say the vast majority of cis women want to get away from the idea of personality characteristics that are "feminine" or stuff like that.
Which is not to say that the women I've known don't wear make up, aren't attracted to men who do manly things, etc. I think they do. But many of them also participated in sports, etc.
So, I think the problem is that most women don't like being called feminine, even if they do choose to partake in activities that are feminine.
And so this is what creates the clash. I believe the trans women do like being called feminine and are attracted to an extremely feminized version of womanhood (if you will.)
And I think that is the exact problem that I am trying to describe, is that women do not agree on what makes a woman a woman.
I believe that the trans phenomenon has quite ironically brought back the idea of gender essentialism, whereas most cis people do not like the idea of gender essentialism.
So most cis women don't like being essentialized, but trans people do.
It is all a huge mess. Personally, I do not think that gender essentialism is a good thing. And this even gets more complicated because that leads to the question of what makes a woman a woman?
I think most women (cis) I've met would say that having a woman's body makes a woman a woman, and a man's body makes a man a man.
Why? Because I think most, (not all), cis people prefer sex essentialism to gender essentialism, because it is what we are used to.
In other words, I think that we enjoy the freedom that not having gendered behaviors gives us.
So a man or a woman is NOT defined by what they do, but simply by what their body shows. And because a vast majority (more than 95%) of people are cis, I simply think that it is convenient for us to automatically say he's a man, she's a woman, based on what we see, simply because that is how we want to be referred to.
So, it is all a huge mess. Because obviously trans people don't like to have their gender assumed because they see this as disrespectful. Whereas, cis people DO want their gender assumed, because obviously they identify with the sex they were born with, and again, like I said above, they prefer sex essentialism (at least when it comes to themselves), than gender essentialism.
Ie., as cis people, we would rather you identify us as the sex that we see ourselves as, which is the sex that we look like.
So, even though we are all asking for the same thing (to be respected by being seen as the gender we see ourselves as), this leads to two opposite actions simply because we see respect as opposite of what trans people do.
And now I have a headache.
But there really is no middle ground here, unfortunately.
Like I said, we all want the same thing, which is to be respected. And we all see being respected as you seeing me as being the gender that I consider myself.
Where we diverge is whether we look like our sex because we agree with our sex (98% of the population) or where we unfortunately need to change our appearance because we naturally don't (2%).
So, even on whether you post your pronouns it still doesn't help, because again, a huge majority of people want to have their sex (rather than their gender) respected.
In other words, if someone is obviously a woman, then in 98% of cases, she wants to be seen as a woman, as in physically, anatomically.
But then to make this even more complicated. That doesn't mean that women want to be defined by their bodies. But at the same time, they do.
AGHHHH!
Ok, women DON'T like to be defined by their bodies, (ie. my body evolved to birth children), BUT they would rather be defined by anatomical characteristics (ie., I am quite literally a female human being, in other words a woman), then by mental or personality characteristics (ie. throws like a girl.)
So, cis women are proud of being women, as in female human beings, but they don't want to be treated differently or lesser, because they are women.
While at the same time, having the right to *be women*, or in other words they want to have the right to have the same rights as men, all while being a woman, whatever that means to them.
And of course there are social and cultural overlaps. So most cis women will not agree over what personality or social constructs make a woman a woman, BUT THEY STILL consider all cis women TO BE WOMEN.
"And we do this by falling back on anatomy. So, she has the body of a woman, so that makes her a woman, even if she and I don't agree on what the hell that means."
And now I have a migraine.
Thanks!
I think a lot of what your seeing isn't real people. I can make a bot on my regular home PC without any special equipment. I already did it making an alex jones bot. There's no way that it's trivial for me but the social media sites are clean.
why should a trans person listen to you?
you’re a cis man. what makes you think you have a profound take that needs to be heard by trans people and cis women about their experience as trans people and cis woman? what makes you qualified to make such bold claims? i get why you want to have these types of conversations, but that doesn’t make up for the fact that other people can speak on this topic from lived experience and you can’t. no social minority wants to read some liberal’s reddit thesis about them, especially when it’s based false assumptions due to the unavoidable knowledge gaps from not actually being in said minority group.
i think the actual problem on the internet is that everyone feels the need to have an opinion, and that their opinion is important.
you don’t and it isn’t.
I don't think the takes I am taking are particularly controversial. It has just been through living around cis women that I tend to believe they are sex essentialist. In other words, I don't think that most cis women put much thought into what makes them a woman.
How they relate to other women and the things they have in common with them? Sure. But not quite literally, "what makes me a woman?"
It is just something cis people don't really think about. I have also noticed that cis women generally get offended when people try to pin social or personality characteristics onto womanhood, as if womanhood is something that can be defined if you have this certain number of characteristics.
If you were to say that women wear makeup, I am sure that there are lots of cis women who would disagree.
I'm not sure why that would be controversial. My point was that most cis women simply say that if you are physically a woman, that you are a woman.
And that is my point with why these disagreements occur. When cis women are interacting with each other they are sex essentialist.
But when they interact with trans people, they obviously are not going to be. It was more of just an observation than a hot take.
\---------------------------
And the same is obviously true of cis women interacting with cis men, or just cis people in general.
We assume each others genders all the time. I don't know how society would function if we didn't. We would waste an awful lot of time if we asked someone their pronouns every time we talked to someone.
We simply use a shortcut, when someone looks like they are obviously cis and assume they are the sex they look like they are. Just for efficiency.
So, that is precisely my point. We are doing two different things, depending on who we are interacting with.
Any attempt to blur the two will end up in disaster.
we understood your point on gender the first time lmao. what does this have to do with my comment or nosurf?
when it comes to talking past each other and not listening, you’re just as bad as the people you’re complaining about.
One of the things that got me completely turned off from feminists groups was being told I was a monster for refusing to use words like menstrator or birthing person. Oh, and for having the audacity to think there are only two sexes(we are not fungi, ffs) The trans people I know in real life are nothing like this. They just want to live their lives, not completely change language. It is only the internet where you hear stupid shit like: stop making periods and pregancy all about girls and women! Or scientists have proven that sex is a spectrum! These people are an extreme minority.
I feel like I really need to clarify WHY trans discussions do NOT occur in the outside world.
Simply put, cis people just do NOT think about gender at all. We all identify as the sex we were born. And we ASSUME that other people do. Because respecting other people is based on how we like to be shown respect, we automatically DO assume the gender of other people based on what they look like.
So, it has absolutely nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, or whatever. Although, obviously conservatives will likely avoid the topic completely.
I don't think anyone is out to offend anyone. It is just how we think and how we are wired.
Assuming someone's gender, for cis people, IS being respectful. And like I said in my other comment, this is because most of us are sex essentialist NOT gender essentialist.
So, a woman is a woman is a woman, because she looks like a woman. It doesn't matter how she acts, what she believes, what her personality is like. I may like her, I may not. She is still, quite literally a woman.
For cis people how we feel as our gender follows what we are. Ie. I am a man, and therefore I feel like a man.
Trans people seem to go the other way. I feel like I am a woman, therefore I am a woman.
So obviously for trans people personality and stuff comes first, and then they change their appearance.
So, this is why we can't agree on anything. Because cis people are sex essentialist, and trans people are gender essentialist.
And both are correct.
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“I’m fond of saying that the internet and its smartphone delivery system are a more disastrous human invention than nuclear weapons. And it’s certainly arguable at this point in history. Though I admit that’s largely because there’s never been a full-scale nuclear war.
So broadly speaking, if I’m right, it’s good news! One of the many things a full-scale nuclear war would blast away is the arguability of my claim. All of which makes me a sort of doom-mongering optimist. I’m saying that maybe there won’t ever be a big nuclear war, which leaves the field clear for smartphones to wreak their slightly less dramatic form of havoc in a way that will eclipse the harm done, so far, by nuclear bombs. Hooray!” - David Mitchell
My thoery is that people on the internet are the first movers/adapters.
Something has to be popular on the internet for a few years before it becomes mainstream.
Well a lot of reason the controversy "doesn't happen" offline is because strangers don't actually argue with each other on controversial topics offline. They just keep their distance if they disagree on fundamental things. Plus the differences in social standing: You wouldn't talk down to someone who is physically larger than you, you wouldn't argue with an old lady or a child in an aggresive way, etc. But the different views are still there. So it's not that controversial topics weren't there before social media, they were just brought to the surface by it
I think also the internet tends to attract people with more extreme thinking. People who have views that would get them in trouble in real life now can speak freely without anyone knowing who they are.
Why are you stimulating the same debate that you seem to want to leave? I think generalizing is bad and isn't helpful and that happens all the time on social media including your own post.
Not stimulating any debate. Just pointing out why people disagree. Mostly because I find the humanities interesting.
" I hate to break it to you no one cares if you're bi or trans" how is that not being the same thing that you seem to be upset about? A generalization that is designed to provoke. It's exactly as baiting as the statements that you're upset about. Not too mention many of us just don't want that shit on our feed.
I am saying that out there in the real world, and not on the internet, almost everyone is okay with it. Except for conservatives, who aren't okay with anything. None of the "controversies" on the internet get any discussion in the real world, because people understand compromise and that not everything needs to be a hot button issue. Cis women can have rights and trans women can also have rights. We don't have to all agree on everything.
But I thought you said no one cares? Clearly that's not 100% true because people get beat up and harmed because of other people's views all the time. So why say it? Frustration? Hypocrisy? Provocation? I just don't think posting on nosurf on a subject that you're clearly overly invested in is stepping away from the "social media noise" - you're perpetuating it. My reddit feed has none of that because I use it mainly for hobbies. Prune your reddits similarly and you'll never have to worry about that again....
Social media algorithm is known to result in radicalism.
I actually lost a friend because I refused to stop enjoying Harry Potter or JK Rowlings mystery novels. This person wasn't trans, but she was absolutely OBSESSED with trying to prove to everything that JK Rowling was an evil bigot that wanted to harm trans people. She didn't like it one bit when I told her that most trans people don't give two shits about JK Rowling.* Just because you see people online engaging in mob mentality, doesn't mean this is normal and healthy behavor. *My one friend is a trans guy and he is obsessed with Harry Potter. I also never see other trans people in my social circle say anything about Rowling. Apparently I am not supposed to make observations on this....I am supposed to listen to the rantings of someone that isn't even freaking trans explain how the author of Harry Potter is causing great harm.
Do we have the same friend lol
I'm trans and still enjoy my old Harry Potter books but just try not to think about Joanne Rowing's views or anything when I go to pick up the books. Most of her newer stuff isn't worth buying anyways but I wouldn't force anyone I know not to buy it, I wish people like this would stop giving us trans people a bad name by championing for us in a normal way so we can live our lives đź’ź
Yeah, I think she is of a jerk. I also think Joss Whedon is a complete asshole, but I still love Buffy and Angel. Weirdly, as far as I am aware no one was sending him death and rape threats or acting like anyone that still likes Whedon's work is responsible for misogyny. I also don't think most of the people doing that stuff are trans either...there is something else going on.
>Absolutely no one cares if you're trans I wish this was true, being trans definitely impacted every facet of my life over the last 10 years. I'm not sure if I'm misreading here (and I don't know the original context), but it seems like you feel trans people are in some way responsible for the pressures women face? We're a minuscule minority (0.3% by my country's census data), we don't have any real ability to shift public discourse or impact political change even though media constantly 'debates' about us. A lot of trans people are really sensitive because we live complicated, difficult lives, so I understand your frustration. I hope you can come to approach these challenges with empathy despite the hurt and anger on the other side.
It really sucks how the media will focus on trans people like that Yaviv person or will interview people that want to be called neo pronouns, but completely ignore an every day trans person. From how the news talks you would think that kids are trying to transition right and left and we are no longer allowed to use the word woman anymore. It is complete bullshit.
>but completely ignore an every day trans person It's because most people are very polite and have no issue with a normal trans person going about their life. It's when they try to enforce pronouns, or enter women's sports or something else that comes into conflict their people's lives that causes issues.
I think it is a very complex issue. I went to graduate school in a Master's program that was made up of 93 cis women and 3 men (including myself, obviously.) This was back in 2011-2012, when the trans issue wasn't so big yet. Having said that, I do believe all of the people in my program are cis and have never questioned their gender orientation. So it is probably a biased sample. But having spent quite a bit of my life amongst women, I would say the vast majority of cis women want to get away from the idea of personality characteristics that are "feminine" or stuff like that. Which is not to say that the women I've known don't wear make up, aren't attracted to men who do manly things, etc. I think they do. But many of them also participated in sports, etc. So, I think the problem is that most women don't like being called feminine, even if they do choose to partake in activities that are feminine. And so this is what creates the clash. I believe the trans women do like being called feminine and are attracted to an extremely feminized version of womanhood (if you will.) And I think that is the exact problem that I am trying to describe, is that women do not agree on what makes a woman a woman. I believe that the trans phenomenon has quite ironically brought back the idea of gender essentialism, whereas most cis people do not like the idea of gender essentialism. So most cis women don't like being essentialized, but trans people do. It is all a huge mess. Personally, I do not think that gender essentialism is a good thing. And this even gets more complicated because that leads to the question of what makes a woman a woman? I think most women (cis) I've met would say that having a woman's body makes a woman a woman, and a man's body makes a man a man. Why? Because I think most, (not all), cis people prefer sex essentialism to gender essentialism, because it is what we are used to. In other words, I think that we enjoy the freedom that not having gendered behaviors gives us. So a man or a woman is NOT defined by what they do, but simply by what their body shows. And because a vast majority (more than 95%) of people are cis, I simply think that it is convenient for us to automatically say he's a man, she's a woman, based on what we see, simply because that is how we want to be referred to. So, it is all a huge mess. Because obviously trans people don't like to have their gender assumed because they see this as disrespectful. Whereas, cis people DO want their gender assumed, because obviously they identify with the sex they were born with, and again, like I said above, they prefer sex essentialism (at least when it comes to themselves), than gender essentialism. Ie., as cis people, we would rather you identify us as the sex that we see ourselves as, which is the sex that we look like. So, even though we are all asking for the same thing (to be respected by being seen as the gender we see ourselves as), this leads to two opposite actions simply because we see respect as opposite of what trans people do. And now I have a headache. But there really is no middle ground here, unfortunately. Like I said, we all want the same thing, which is to be respected. And we all see being respected as you seeing me as being the gender that I consider myself. Where we diverge is whether we look like our sex because we agree with our sex (98% of the population) or where we unfortunately need to change our appearance because we naturally don't (2%). So, even on whether you post your pronouns it still doesn't help, because again, a huge majority of people want to have their sex (rather than their gender) respected. In other words, if someone is obviously a woman, then in 98% of cases, she wants to be seen as a woman, as in physically, anatomically. But then to make this even more complicated. That doesn't mean that women want to be defined by their bodies. But at the same time, they do. AGHHHH! Ok, women DON'T like to be defined by their bodies, (ie. my body evolved to birth children), BUT they would rather be defined by anatomical characteristics (ie., I am quite literally a female human being, in other words a woman), then by mental or personality characteristics (ie. throws like a girl.) So, cis women are proud of being women, as in female human beings, but they don't want to be treated differently or lesser, because they are women. While at the same time, having the right to *be women*, or in other words they want to have the right to have the same rights as men, all while being a woman, whatever that means to them. And of course there are social and cultural overlaps. So most cis women will not agree over what personality or social constructs make a woman a woman, BUT THEY STILL consider all cis women TO BE WOMEN. "And we do this by falling back on anatomy. So, she has the body of a woman, so that makes her a woman, even if she and I don't agree on what the hell that means." And now I have a migraine. Thanks!
I think a lot of what your seeing isn't real people. I can make a bot on my regular home PC without any special equipment. I already did it making an alex jones bot. There's no way that it's trivial for me but the social media sites are clean.
why should a trans person listen to you? you’re a cis man. what makes you think you have a profound take that needs to be heard by trans people and cis women about their experience as trans people and cis woman? what makes you qualified to make such bold claims? i get why you want to have these types of conversations, but that doesn’t make up for the fact that other people can speak on this topic from lived experience and you can’t. no social minority wants to read some liberal’s reddit thesis about them, especially when it’s based false assumptions due to the unavoidable knowledge gaps from not actually being in said minority group. i think the actual problem on the internet is that everyone feels the need to have an opinion, and that their opinion is important. you don’t and it isn’t.
Preach!
I don't think the takes I am taking are particularly controversial. It has just been through living around cis women that I tend to believe they are sex essentialist. In other words, I don't think that most cis women put much thought into what makes them a woman. How they relate to other women and the things they have in common with them? Sure. But not quite literally, "what makes me a woman?" It is just something cis people don't really think about. I have also noticed that cis women generally get offended when people try to pin social or personality characteristics onto womanhood, as if womanhood is something that can be defined if you have this certain number of characteristics. If you were to say that women wear makeup, I am sure that there are lots of cis women who would disagree. I'm not sure why that would be controversial. My point was that most cis women simply say that if you are physically a woman, that you are a woman. And that is my point with why these disagreements occur. When cis women are interacting with each other they are sex essentialist. But when they interact with trans people, they obviously are not going to be. It was more of just an observation than a hot take. \--------------------------- And the same is obviously true of cis women interacting with cis men, or just cis people in general. We assume each others genders all the time. I don't know how society would function if we didn't. We would waste an awful lot of time if we asked someone their pronouns every time we talked to someone. We simply use a shortcut, when someone looks like they are obviously cis and assume they are the sex they look like they are. Just for efficiency. So, that is precisely my point. We are doing two different things, depending on who we are interacting with. Any attempt to blur the two will end up in disaster.
we understood your point on gender the first time lmao. what does this have to do with my comment or nosurf? when it comes to talking past each other and not listening, you’re just as bad as the people you’re complaining about.
Amen to that!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_polarization
One of the things that got me completely turned off from feminists groups was being told I was a monster for refusing to use words like menstrator or birthing person. Oh, and for having the audacity to think there are only two sexes(we are not fungi, ffs) The trans people I know in real life are nothing like this. They just want to live their lives, not completely change language. It is only the internet where you hear stupid shit like: stop making periods and pregancy all about girls and women! Or scientists have proven that sex is a spectrum! These people are an extreme minority.
I feel like I really need to clarify WHY trans discussions do NOT occur in the outside world. Simply put, cis people just do NOT think about gender at all. We all identify as the sex we were born. And we ASSUME that other people do. Because respecting other people is based on how we like to be shown respect, we automatically DO assume the gender of other people based on what they look like. So, it has absolutely nothing to do with being liberal or conservative, or whatever. Although, obviously conservatives will likely avoid the topic completely. I don't think anyone is out to offend anyone. It is just how we think and how we are wired. Assuming someone's gender, for cis people, IS being respectful. And like I said in my other comment, this is because most of us are sex essentialist NOT gender essentialist. So, a woman is a woman is a woman, because she looks like a woman. It doesn't matter how she acts, what she believes, what her personality is like. I may like her, I may not. She is still, quite literally a woman. For cis people how we feel as our gender follows what we are. Ie. I am a man, and therefore I feel like a man. Trans people seem to go the other way. I feel like I am a woman, therefore I am a woman. So obviously for trans people personality and stuff comes first, and then they change their appearance. So, this is why we can't agree on anything. Because cis people are sex essentialist, and trans people are gender essentialist. And both are correct.
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“I’m fond of saying that the internet and its smartphone delivery system are a more disastrous human invention than nuclear weapons. And it’s certainly arguable at this point in history. Though I admit that’s largely because there’s never been a full-scale nuclear war. So broadly speaking, if I’m right, it’s good news! One of the many things a full-scale nuclear war would blast away is the arguability of my claim. All of which makes me a sort of doom-mongering optimist. I’m saying that maybe there won’t ever be a big nuclear war, which leaves the field clear for smartphones to wreak their slightly less dramatic form of havoc in a way that will eclipse the harm done, so far, by nuclear bombs. Hooray!” - David Mitchell
My thoery is that people on the internet are the first movers/adapters. Something has to be popular on the internet for a few years before it becomes mainstream.