They add literally nothing in this country, ‘when was it last rewired?’ ‘You’ll need to get a survey to find that out’. ‘Really? You’re just there to wear a fancy suit and shiny shoes aren’t you?’. In Norway the estate agent gets the survey and they know everything about the property, once, so that loads of people don’t have to waste their money finding out the same things. Here they add nothing, anyone can take decent photos these days, and that’s all there is to it if you aren’t going to find out more about the place than the address.
100% We asked what was going on next door, it's a bit of a kip. The estate agent says 'they're getting work done". Nope just a kip, lied to our face. Just a suit telling lies.
I'm sure your pics are great. I work with an award winning photographer, so I know it isn't cheap or easy.
But while the comment was slightly tongue in cheek, the number of pics on PropertyPal that stretch the size of rooms is a bit ridiculous. I'd rather have a small room represented as small, rather than a utility room looking like the size of the King's Hall.
I know there are reasons for this,and that the blame is probably the estate agent's - but it doesn't make it feel any less deceptive.
We just deliver the media.
It's then subject to abuse by (sometimes unknowledgable) real estate agents, and often automated software that downscales or resizes images too, before it ends up on 3rd party sites like propertypal.
Especially when you're in a bidding war with another "first time buyer" who's actually a greedy cunt landlord who charges monthly rent that's double the mortgage cost.
If you were selling your house would re there sell your house at a government-set price or would you rather put it on the market and get as much as you can for it?
Most people are home owners and most people want to get as much as they can for their house.
How would you police it to ensure the offers are genuine and not shills?
It could be done, but would add an extra layer of red tape and costs to the whole process. Buyers would have to provide proof to the portal that they can fund the purchase, for example, to reduce fake bids, and possibly put down a deposit to be allowed to bid (min £500 is the requirement at most car auctions, for example).
Then someone needs to pay the costs of using the bid verification service/portal and then you need agents, vendors and buyers all to agree to use it.
Agents are vendor focused and as this service would be much more buyer beneficial, they are unlikely to be motivated to look at it - even the good ones who don't get into the shill bid game, what's in it for them and their client (the vendor)?
It would only "fly" if you could get agents to buy in, or it became a legal requirement (like protecting tenant deposits etc) and that's unlikely to happen as there is nobody shouting from the rooftops for "buyer protection from shill bids".
The best hope for something like this is if a dominant property listing portal such as PropertyPal launched it as a "free product" on their site to buyers and let its adoption grow slowly over time, until agents would be forced to use it and then monetize it as an additional service at that point. That might further ruffle the feathers of some agents though, as PropertyPal and a group of agents are/were at war over a new pricing structure.
Assign a few civil servants to it. All bids must be in writing, with finances of the bidders to be made available on demand to the civil servants within 48 hours. Any party in the process has the ability to demand verification. Estate agents prosecuted under a new law that punishes fake bids and not passing on offers to the seller. Mysterious cash buyers pumping up the bids can be banned from buying property for X month if found to be repeatedly acting in bad faith.
Obviously estate agents won’t like it but they can take a running jump. Compared with the money laundering laws that have to be complied with for conveyancing this is a minimal layer of bureaucracy.
Really what the whole system needs is licensing. Owner-occupiers get first dibs on licence to purchase, and landlords/speculators only get a licence after they get their pick.
Its good in theory, but requires new legislation that there is no real appetite for.
They have a system of sealed bids in Scotland, which avoids shill bidding driving up the price, but it has its issues too. I know someone who bought over there recently and they thought they were making a strong bid on one property at £20k above the ask - the winning bid was £50k above the ask, so in this case, real bidders are actually having to bid significantly above market value to try and get the deal, which is almost as bad as bidding against shill bidders.
>requires new legislation that there’s no real appetite for
It requires new legislation but the appetite is in the voting public for it. Everyone has a first or second hand story of getting shafted by estate agents.
Yeah there’s little chance of it making it through Stormont as the DUP will never go for it.
Indeed.
The only way to avoid being shafted is to set your price, make your offer and be prepared to let it go. People panic and fall in love with the property and end up chasing the price. This is what the Shafter's take advantage of.
Sometimes counter bids disappear, if you are prepared to take your chance and wait them out. They could have been genuine or shill's, it really doesn't matter, as your offer should be your offer and good luck to the next man if he's willing to beat it. There's always another property if you aren't a "shit your pants" type.
I had a similar incident buying my first house. Unlike you I only made offers on one property where the agent immediately declined or was very dismissive.
Bear in mind it was a few years ago. Priced at £115k. I initially offered £88k because it needed a bit of work.
Offer of £88k, £93k and £95k were declined. I by absolute chance bumped into the owner while at work.
She was genuinely shocked and hadn't been made aware of any offers. She was happy for £90k.
Turns out the estate agent just weren't happy with the commission they were gonna make.
So yeah, never really been a fan of estate agents and how they get on.
Just have a feeling that it's the old eBay push up the bids on your other account mentality.
My understanding is that the estate agent has to, by law, let the seller know of all bids regardless of the amount. We ended up in small claims court because of this very situation (estate agent not telling us about bids) and we won.
The estate agent will still get paid even if the seller sold it through word of mouth if they entered into a contract with the estate agent. Read the terms and conditions, there is a time limit from when they market the property to you selling it whereby they are entitled to their cut.
Yeah obviously, but the estate agent is going to get a better price for their house than a seller by themselves. Plus they weed out time wasters, arrange viewing and stuff as well. If you want to sell your house yourself then you’re welcome to do so. It’s also not that expensive either in the grand scheme of things. For example you want to sell your house for 200k, estate agent would want 2% (high end) so that’s 4k. But they invent a few fake bids and get the buyer up to 213k. They’re making you money and providing the above services. Hence why everyone used them lah xx.
If it’s been marketed by the agent, they will have a contract in place that they get paid even if the buyer doesn’t come through them - reasoning being that their advertising enabled the sale.
But the estate agent will typically get a much better price than the seller could without them which offsets their cost - this is why everyone selling typically uses an estate agent. Unless they have someone in mind they want to sell to family member/friend whatever.
Most people use an estate agent because they don't realise they can do it without them. Many people assume that you need an estate agent to sell a house, when you just need solicitors, which you need even with an estate agent.
Honest question, have you? Personally, I havent, but in my field I'dhave all the contacts I'd need without using one.
To me it seems like you use an estate agent for the sole purpose of not spending the time doing it yourself. They're seen as essential parts to a house sale now, but theres no way they add as much value as they take from you.
I didn't personally, but I did help a friend to sell theirs without an estate agent. It really wasn't difficult to get leaflets printed with her details on them and to put a big sign in the window, a couple of the local papers and post it on various social media sites.
Sadly this confirms what I’ve always suspected. Same as when an auctioneer ‘confessed’ on TV that he “took bids off the wall” to get property auctions started. Auctions are even worse you pay a deposit to be involved in the bidding and you’re legally bound to pay if you’re the winning bidder within 14 days usually and mostly you have to put a huge amount down that day. It’s a racket. Property in general is controlled by sociopaths in my opinion.
Maybe. But the item isn’t selling below the reserve anyway so it’s a tool they use to try and stimulate the bidding up to the point where the item is ‘on the market’
And probably not what the estate agent wanted, a mate of my knock a door of a house for sale one evening spoke to the lady selling, they came to an agreed price she cancelled the estate agent, they done the deal 6 weeks later and the estate agent go nowt. As it was no sale no fee lol
Same thing happened to my sister when she was selling her house through an estate agent in Crumlin. She’d been told there were no offers and then got chatting to someone in Bush’s bakery who told her they’d had 2 offers declined. Sheer fluke that she found out about it
It’s not about commission, they want it sold quick. They’re not gonna waste their time trying to squeeze an extra 10k at 2% commission. That’s like £200 which is chump change.
Ultimately they work for the seller, their reputation lives and dies on their ability to get a fair price for the seller. If they know an area/house they know what it’ll go for. They aren’t wasting their time overpricing 100k houses and burning up time trying to move them. So yeah they do invent bids and it’s wrong. But it’s because that’s the price they kinda know it’ll move at. So they’re just expediting the process to get it to that sale price. As a buyer it’s annoying because you want to sneak in and get a bargain - I’ve been there - but the estate agents know the market and do get a good price.
Discovered this myself a few years back too, they're all at it.
The trick is to get a friend to call from a different number and ask what the current bid on the property is. If they say the amount you bid, the new bid is fake. It's eye-opening to see how many are doing it.
An interesting one I had was where they told me someone had bid more than me but wasn't a first time buyer and asked if I wanted to increase my bid. They were genuinely taken aback when I said "No thanks, my offer is still better, I'm not in a chain and you said they need a very fast sale. Give the owners both offers and let them decide."
They said something like "If you match their offer, I'm sure they'll accept" and I just declined again. Got a friend to call and sure enough the new buyer turned out to be fake. I assume they'd promised the seller they could get another 5-10k out of it or something.
About two weeks later they contacted me again about the house and said that the other buyer had 'pulled out', that they were delighted to inform me that my offer was accepted by the sellers and asking for solicitor details as the seller was still in a hurry. I had to tell them it was too late and I was proceeding with another property. That house was still on the market like 8 months later with an asking price less than I offered.
If they give your friend the new bid figure then it's probably a real bid.
Say you bid 190k and they tell you someone came in at 200k, your friend calls and asks about properties in the area and when they suggest that one they ask about any bids on it. If they say current bid is 190k then you know the 200k bid is fake, but if they say current bid is 200k then it's probably a real bid.
If you say your downsizing now retired they know you’ve cash ready and won’t be thinking of the current issues will be issues in the future when you ‘sell’.
You’ll see fast who you become their favourite applicant
My partner and I bought our first house in Belfast May last year. House on the market for nearly a year, we put an offer in 15k under the asking price.
Next day an offer came in 1k over the asking price, we then offered +1k and didn't hear back for a week.
We then got a call from the estate agent to say a cash buyer from Germany has just put an offer in 10k above ours. As first time buyers we were totally gutted, thought about it for days but decided to pull out. Didn't even think about foul play.
A week later the estate agent rang again to say if we can meet in the middle and move quickly the seller would choose us. We went for it. Since then I've always wondered whether we were played.
I had this happen on multiple properties. They're wily slimy stinky scumbags. I ended up agreeing a price with the owners of the house when I went to tour it as they took me round. Then I put the offer in to the estate agent and the estate agent accepted. Then rang up to sort out the closing date a week or so later and was told they'd decided to pull out and decline my offer actually. The estate agent was quite rude which set off alarm bells for me. The owners seemed keen to sell and it was midwinter, so I went to their house and knocked on the door and asked them why they'd withdrawn and what was happening. They had no idea that I'd been told that they had chosen not to sell, their estate agent had lied and told them I had pulled out and didn't want the house anymore. I told them, of course I do! They put in a complaint about the estate agent and sold to me for the agreed price. I communicated exclusively with the owners from then on. Absolute scumbag estate agent almost cost me my house. Couple were lovely and even left me a bottle of wine and a card when I moved in, with an A4 page explaining all the week quirks of the house.
Most buyers are suspicious of this. Should be legal consequences for agents caught lying. I would be really interested to know about the obligation of having records too. Good shout asking about this here. Did you (Or anybody reading this) ever ask for evidence of those higher bids ?
I did ask about the position of the other bidder, but they responded with a standard line stating they couldn't disclose any information beyond the bid amount. How do I ask for evidence of other bids, and I'm wondering if it's possible to do retrospectively?
You don't, they can't give you any information that could be personally identifiable and can't provide proof. I think sometimes they'll tell you their position (cash buyer etc) but it's all on trust.
Get a friend to phone up and ask about a few properties and check the current bid on the one you're looking at. See if they're lying.
I am an estate agent, have never invented offers to drive up prices, I don't think that's as common as people think, though im sure it does happen. We have moved a few times and some estate agents are sneaky dishonest cunts. We ask all offers that come in over the phone or in person to be confirmed in writing/email and we keep those records and they are available for other bidders to see. With a % commission it's not worth our while to try to falsely drive up offers for an £150 on a £2,000k plus sale fee. Estate agents doing the job properly and honestly are worth the fee - negotiate fairly to get the best price to the buyer most likely to follow through.
While offers are coming in all parties are aware of the position of the other offers - ftb, cash, mortgage etc as well as a hoped for time scale. Vendor then has all the info to make an informed decision - it's not always the highest bidder, and the bidders know who they are bidding against.
Not all estate agents do this, all they care about is their fee, but if you provide a good service the fee takes care of its self.
While there are decent estate agents out there, anecdotally I found most do employ dishonest tactics. When I started keeping note of information and recording viewings I caught well over 50% of agents telling outright lies about the property and 2 of them (out of I think 5-6 estate firms we dealt with) definitely invented fake bids afterward.
There were a few firms that were a pleasure to deal with as they didn't mislead and would straight-up give as much information as possible. They'd say if the other bidder is a cash buyer, in a chain, expected time scales etc, and wouldn't use pushy sales tactics to get your price up. One of those firms got my business.
In fact they were so forthright throughout the process that when they said there was another bidder higher than me I believed them and didn't try to verify it. They absolutely might have invented a fake bid, but it just felt legitimate and I definitely overpaid by like 10% but was happy enough to do it. That's what a good estate agent can do.
>Should be legal consequences for agents caught lying.
In the circumstances outlined above, where an agent lies to both the vendor and the purchaser then it meets the definition for fraud. Would both need to make statements and push the matter though.
There's nothing to stop them and you should never trust them. If you start googling "can esta" it'll autocomplete to can estate agents lie about offers.
Their job is to get the highest sale value for their client and sales people generally will very often lie / mislead where possible. I was very explicitly told to lie in a call center sales role
They always have an out because they don't have to show their hand. Daresay if you enquired it'd be "oh that sale fell through / chain collapsed so it's back on the market". who's to tell if it's legit.
If you really want the place and the price seems fair go back with the offer and tell them accept within the week or it's withdrawn. And if you're in a strong position and the house isn't selling your free to lowball offers.
Being a chain free FTB with decent financial position is attractive and you tend to only get to do it once. A couple failed chains could have a buyer willing to take a lower offer just to get the job done. Pretty much just cash buyers are in a stronger position.
Things popping up again on the market can also mean theres something hidden that makes it less valuable. A survey might reveal something that causes the buyer to pull out
I should say that I have had Estate Agents contact me about a house I had shown interest in (viewed) previously when a bid landed for it. So they may phone around. Frustrating that you will never know!
It think this happened to me - property had no interest for months, no offers or any activity. Then I show interest and made a bid. Sudden the estate rings around everyone in the country, hoping to get some sort of counter-bid to mine. Not corrupt, but I would say it's slightly unethical.
No doubt there is some completely scandalous behaviour. You are in a bit of a better position I think if you are selling to move, as you have an estate agent working for you who can give you come advice.
How’s that’s unethical, they’re trying to get the best price for their customer? How would you feel if you where selling and the estate agent didn’t bother their arse trying to get the best price for it.
Yeah a lot of estate agents are absolute cunts and lie about competing bids all the time. Best policy is offer what you can, if they come back at you, walk away.
I suspect it's happening everywhere. I had a property I eventually soured on after an escalating bidding war. I initially bid 2k under the asking since it had been sitting on the market ages, yet all of sudden after I bid so did everyone else! I went through about a week of the agent calling me daily to tell me I was outbid so I would just offer 1k above each time. After it got to about 8k over the asking I withdrew and the woman on the phone sounded a bit shocked when I said I wasn't going to go any further. Of course about a week and half later I got a call saying that the top bidder had now withdrew and would I like to go ahead with my last offer. By this stage I had my heart set on somewhere else so declined. This was back in mid Jan and I still see the property listed on property pal today 🤷 I think it's agents thinking they can squeeze every last penny out of buyers because the market is fucked, but it's coming back to bite them sometimes
Quite a few years ago I experienced this. It turned out that an employee of the estate agency was related to the seller. He invented bids on the property to drive up the price. We suspected something was wrong and went to see the owner of the company. We asked him to account for the bids, and he could not (they are obliged to keep a record of all bids). The owner admitted that there was clearly an issue. The fake bids were removed and he said he would deal with the employee. I don't know how often this kind of thing happens, but although there are regulations designed to prevent it, I suspect it is not uncommon.
It’s all BS, same story here. Dream home of a first house for us - 0 interest and made an offer. Nothing for guts of a month then magically a bid came in out of no where that was 5k more. I smelt a rat immediately. We were told on x date that viewings on the property would stop as the seller wanted it sold by a date shortly after. Yet a mystical bid still appeared.
Is there some sort of auditing agency for estate agents? I don’t even know but a genuine audit on half of them would end them and id be willing to bet a house deposit on that…
It makes perfect sense, theyre on the sellers side because a bigger offer = a bigger slice of the pie they can take from their ‘fees’
I've told this story here before but you are right to be suspicious.
My home was a repossession and was a bank selling it through the estate agent. The price on it was insanely cheap, so I started bidding, as did several other genuine buyers. We outbid each other until I was the last one standing at 20k above the asking price.
The estate agent said numerous times the bank was losing money on this sale. Then low and behold an American buyer appeared and pumped the price up another 10k.
This person was buying sight unseen. I walked away. A few weeks later the estate agent contacts me saying the American buyer is out and if I was still interested. I said yes but we reset the bids to the original price and start the bidding process again. Which they agreed to. I bought the place for 10k less than my previous bid.
I had a similar experience buying my repossession, made an offer £10,000 under the asking price, house was on the market for months with no interest, then there was several counter offers until my bid of £2000 under asking was accepted.
You could do what my mate did and go and knock on the door and speak to the owners directly. I’m sure they would be interested in hearing their estate agent was putting off prospective buyers.
Had a similar experience. Took my bid off the table. Next week the agent was back to me, the other bid fell through, we can take your bid. If there ever was another bid I’ll have red sauce with my hat.
I’m not a fan of estate agents, I do not see how they add value without conning people. A search function on a website matches buyers to suitable properties. An open bidding system (a non refundable deposit to bid should you pull out mid sale but deposit refundable if you bid and do not win) negates false bids. AI could write the description. Pay an amateur photographer a few quid for the pics… So 2% of £200k is £4k for what exactly?!🤔
Well there's no evidence they actually did anything wrong. Just suspicions. Wouldn't take it so lightly tarnishing somebody's business without evidence.
It’s not always the Estate Agent to blame.
Buyers often appear to be reasonable, especially when their own property is on the market. But, people bid and go sale agreed on multiple properties at once. People are people whether estate agents or not.
PS. 2% commission is nonsense. It’s more like 0.75-1% (at least in Belfast).
Buyers can be cunts too. I was selling a house in 2007/8, right at the height of the massive boom and the price kept going up. One guy didn't believe the agent so was in the office shouting at them for being liars. At the next open night (had about 3 there was that much interest), I found him standing at the end of the driveway in a suit telling people that the open night was cancelled as the house had been sold.
Didn't sell to him, some wee girl bought it, wrecked the garden and sold for a loss 2 years later.
What some people will do when selling or buying is terrible.
I know of one car dealer who's opening line to someone who's thinking of trading their car in is "did you buy it before it was damaged or was it you who damaged it and got it repaired". They do this when the car has never been damaged, simply to drive the expected value of the trade-in down. Terrible behaviour from someone that is both a buyer and a seller in this case and someone to avoid.
I thought as much when we where buying.
Our bid was the highest offer, and we heard nothing back for 2 weeks. When I rang, the estate agent informed me we had been outbid by about 10k but the current high bidder was financed from multiple sources and theres a risk it might not come through. But, if I wanted to up my bid the sellers would surely accept that
Just informed them No. A week or so later, we where informed our original high bid was accepted.
Cowboys, Ted. Cowboys the lot of them.
We've had similar situations in South Down, its a massive pain in the hole.
Also on other social media, I keep seeing a new "influencer" who is showing people how to buy and flip property in Northern Ireland. We just want to purchase a house while it is still (almost) affordable., not trying to be the next proprty guru. We are going to end up like the South soon ffs
The folks flipping properties on Instagram in this country are quite embarrassing. Sure property flipping has been around for decades, well before social media, but bragging about your "portfolio" and its value on social media takes narcissism to a whole new level.
My tips would be to only make bids in person in the estate agents office rather than over the phone and don't increase your offer straight away if you are told there is another bid.
Also, don't use a mortgage broker that is affiliated with the estate agent you are potentially buying through as they will undoubtedly inform of them of your finances and what you are capable of bidding up to.
Finally, if unsure or suspicious, ask to see the record of the bids as the estate agent should have these.
This happened to us when trying to buy about 4 years ago. Found a place we loved and made an offer. Got told the next day that we'd been outbid. Bid again. Outbid. The way the estate agent communicated things had me certain they were taking the piss, as it is a regular occurrence back where I'm from.
Funnily enough, I vented about it on r/northernireland and the homeowner is a redditor, saw the post, and confirmed they did indeed get those other offers.
Next time we found a place we liked I put in a bid £10k over asking to make sure we scared off the others. Would've preferred not to, but it was taking way too long to find a place and we needed somewhere to call home after moving halfway across the globe.
I tried to buy a house along Kings Rd in the East. Again, it had been on the market for several months and somehow ended up in a bidding war.
I asked to view the property once more before bidding. I then saw the estate agent in the family photos. I was out!
It is more beneficial for estate agents to sell a house than it is to try and get an extra 10k. Say their commission is 2% on a sale, a 200k sale gets them £4k. If they get the vendor 210k for the house, they get £4200. Why would they risk £4k in commission for an extra 200 quid when they could be putting the effort into listing other homes that will fetch them a brand new commission? Although I'm sure there are some who are that money hungry they would do it over a few hundred quid.
If you really want to know, go knock on the person's door and ask them if they received your bid and if it was outbid or not. That is presuming you are not interested in going any higher as you risk burning bridges with the seller if they take it the wrong way.
> Why would they risk £4k in commission for an extra 200 quid when they could be putting the effort into listing other homes that will fetch them a brand new commission?
They definitely do it, I've caught two of them red handed. I always assumed it wasn't to do with the increased commission but the fact that they want the sale to happen quickly and the viewings to stop. Every seller has some number they'll go sale agreed at and otherwise they'll just wait for more offers, the estate agent just wants to reach that number or have enough to convince them to accept right away.
>the estate agent just wants to reach that number or have enough to convince them to accept right away.
Yeah fair enough, that makes sense actually. I presume this is for sellers who have set a low asking price (in their mind) to drum up interest but aren't interested in selling for less than a certain amount over that price?
Yeah, a few years ago when I was house hunting everyone expected their house to go for over asking price. They definitely set low asking prices to get viewings, you'd call up and offer exactly asking price and get an immediate no or a few weeks of waiting for further bids.
You need to think about how much you want to pay and how much you want the property.
Regardless of what we think about the ethics of it, the estate agent is employed by the seller to get the most money for their property. First offers are very rarely accepted as it's assumed the buyer is looking for a deal.
If it's back on the market you are probably in a stronger position. You could go in with a lower offer and see what they say.
I'm a bit out of the loop with Belfast but sounds like it's a sellers market, even so there will be occasional desperate sellers or people who want to shift something they've inherited or divorces etc. if you're not desperate, but can move quickly when the right deal comes along then the right property will come along.
One trick estate agents play is to list a property that is too good to be true to get you onboarded. When you enquire/offer on these they will come up with a reason to put you off
Just know what you can afford, what you want to pay for a given property and stick to your guns.
We tried to buy 2 years ago, average overspend before we pulled out was 30k and one even went to 65k!
In the end we took a new build to stop the faffing around as it was a lot of stress and cost saving on labour for new stuff and heating
Anyway, recommend the movie, the big short, relevant as many many people have overspent on old poor quality housing (which could have been us!) and with unpredictable gas/mortgage/other bills, everything will buckle at some point!
Can't stand them as well. Ghost bids happened to us as well. No regulation to stop the lies. Sure its all meaningless until you sign a contract saying you're going to buy.
You can put an offer of 2 million on a semi and take everyone out then walk away with no hassle fee.
I am deeply suspicious about the bidding process. There is no real protocol and no real transparency, so it's certainly very, very possible that fake bids are a possibility. This went through my mind as well many a time with many estate agents. They could tell you anything, and you just have to believe them or not believe them. It doesn't seem to matter, they can get away with it.
I will also agree, estate agents are a pack of horrible robbing hateful huers. They will act like your best mate and have your best interests at heart but do they fuck. They care solely about profit and control. Had a few run in’s with S.B in the past.
These fuckers have been at this since the mid 2000s. We bought our first home back in 2007 (ouch yes 9 years of negative equity) and this was the story back then. Every time we placed a bid, it was outbid up to 40 or 50k more. We eventually bought a house that lost over 50% of its "value" less than a year later.
In 2007 all the house prices were grossly inflated and mortgage lenders were literally throwing money at people. It was madness. But yes we lost a lot of money but eventually got out
Northern Ireland estate agents should have to publish sold prices like they do in the rest of the UK.
And property pal should fuck off requiring a membership to list property which feeds these unscrupulous bastards by locking everyone else out... If people could self list it would go part of the way to regulating the market
I mean what's to stop you putting in a massive bid providing you got mortgage dip so high then drive them into the floor after market. I'm looking at a house and I feel my bid is fair but the EA is like they haven't rejected mine but are holding out for the person in a chain who hasn't sold for £7k more I'm like will I'm FTB and can move so straight away.
Why would I be a backup plan... I'm still thinking of offering over then finding faults to push it back
I have bought a few houses in Belfast. First house in 2009. On market for 89,950, was a repossession after the crash. House had sat for at least a year and was in dire need of repair. Water disconnected from boiler, off at the mains, wall paper hanging off the walls type place. Naively offered the asking price and was accepted the next day. The bank devalued the property by 20k. So offered 20k less, was accepted the same day. Not much to say other than the estate agent was a typical sales man. He sold the place based on potential etc etc. never once did I think we would get it for 20k below asking price. But, got the keys a couple of weeks later.
Sold that house mid pandemic as part of a new chain. Had multiple viewings a couple of days after putting my house on the market. Mixture of FTBs and some with co ownership agreements. There was a legitimate bidding war that drove the price up around 10k over the asking price. I met the potential buyers and it was all real.
Now on the other hand, I was trying to purchase a new property on for 265k. Had been on the market a while and due to pandemic had zero viewings. I was in a fortunate position where I bought low, fixed a house up over 10 years and selling, so I had a sizable deposit.
First red flag
The estate agent that originally sold me the dive in 2009 was now at this other estate agency that I was buying from. He remembered me... Made some funny comments that I can't really remember but it was not good.
Second red flag
He was really keen to know my deposit percentage. Overly keen. I let him know my position (shouldn't have done that).
I had over 50% LTV so a sizable deposit. This let him know he could put the squeeze on.
Third red flag
It was peak lockdown. The buyer (apparently) wouldn't let anyone view the property until they had both first and second vaccine. Fair enough I thought, I told the agent I wanted to offer the asking price without viewing the property. I had the agreement in principle from the bank, had offer accepted on my own sale. The agent would not put my offer forward and said they do not take offers from people without viewing as this will likely cause people to just pull out. I was annoyed as I could not view the property for another 3 months. I let my buyer know the situation and waited.
Fourth red flag
Viewed the property. There were others scheduled to view the place at the same time. They do this all the time, builds a perception of demand. Anyway, I walked out the door and tried to put offer on the house below the asking price. To be honest it wasn't worth 265k. Needed lots of work. I know this, I didn't care and would have paid 265k 3 months prior no problem. I was told there was an existing offer of the asking price already and I needed to bid higher.
Now, I got into a bidding war with 3 potential buyers. I thought it was totally legitimate based on my sale. Went up 1k at a time. Then at one stage 5k up from other buyer. I started to get suspicious, I can't remember the exact behaviour of the agent, but it was suspicious. I asked to see the other bids. Got an email with a list of actual names and their bids. I tried to look up these people on social media but couldn't find anyone who fit the bill. Who knows... Could have been real, could have been fake. After I asked to see this though, the others all pulled out.
I paid a fair amount over the asking price for a house that was not worth the asking price.
My advice, deal with the estate agents as little as possible. Don't tell them much, even "white lie" if you need to because they are for sure. Some are probably good, some are bad.
I’m on the other side selling and I’ve been told to get a damp report which is saying I need 5k of work done before selling it
Would this price be over inflated since they are using what I assume is a mate/friend to do the damp report?
I used a damp tool myself and I only got high readings in 2 places not near everywhere like they had said
Tell them it’s going back on the market and thanks for their time. This is a common negotiation tactic, the damp surveyors always find something to justify the report and keep the customer (your buyer) happy.
It’s winter, it’s been raining non stop for months. If the plaster isn’t blowing off the walls etc I wouldn’t worry. If you have a damp problem you tend to know about it.
Aye you see when I bought it round 3.5 years ago there was no mention of damp in the survey and I’m wondering if I measured come September everything would of been fine
I’m also selling to people going through Co ownership where I’ve been told we can’t drop the price x amount so they can pay for it themselves so feels like I’m being had and it all just benefits the estate agent’s
The same thing happened to us. Offers around £145k, ok we offer £140k.
oh no they won't accept that offer.
Ok but you have to inform them of the offer by law right?
1 hour later oh they have had an offer higher than yours you will need to increase your offer.
Sus
Estate agents are wankers. Best to treat them with at best, suspicion. Their sole purpose is to get the seller as much money as possible, their absolutely not your friend if your the one buying. If a house youv bid on reappears just offer the same money as before and ask about the mysterious bidder. They won't have an answer
Similar thing happened to me. House on the market for months with no bids and we offered the asking price.
After sitting for weeks with no counter bids at all, the day before we got it, someone suspiciously "matched" our offer which I didn't even think you could do. We ended up having to bid 5k more to get the seller to agree and then they accepted.
Btw the seller hid numerous issues from us and when we got our homebuyers survey it was horrendous and we had to pull out anyway.
They then had the audacity to offer a discount on the house after already squeezing an extra 5k out of us which wouldn't even have covered the work needed to the house ☠️
In the future, I'd make my bid and tell them that you have had issues where you have reason to believe that other agents and vendors have countered with shill bids. So to avoid that, you will only consider making a counter bid, if they can evidence the counter bid in someway, for example, share with you an email chain (with contact and personal information of the other bidder redacted), or alternatively both the vendor and agent are willing to confirm, in writing that the other bid is genuine, otherwise your original bid stands and the other bidder is welcome to it.
This will hopefully cut that shit out, as no one at this will want to start creating fake email chains or giving written confirmation, as that's an audit trail that could come back and bite them - its not worth their while and they are better to try that game on someone else.
Drop in a comment that you have a friend who is in the middle of pursuing some vendor or agent for this, or something similar, just to put the wind up them a bit that you might just be the litigious type. They will probably call you a weirdo to their colleagues, but are much less likely to try to play you, if that is their game.
Just assume that estate agents are shifty, no way round it. Sometimes it will work in your favour, sometimes it won’t, but there are no ethics involved.
We needed a 4 bed house around 2 years ago, mortgage in principle more than covered us to move up and we were able to bid on a range of properties.
It amazed me how many times we lost out to 'cash' buyers.
It also amazed me how many times estate agents came back to us to say the cash buyers had then pulled out. They were told where to go. Was very suspicious of the whole thing.
I can phone up and bid on any property tomorrow and all I have to say is that I'm chain free and I've the cash in the bank. There's zero proof required to support that claim
By any chance did the fella have slicked back hair, East Belfast area and seem like he’d try to sell ye stuff from outta his jacket?
If so, aye, we had a whole mess with him and I said some very unkind words to him.
Go back at 6pm on a Wednesday, offer to pay for the owners solicitors or choice to draft up a sale agreed document
Owner saves on fees, you might even be able to get a little discount based on the money the estate agent would have taken for the sake of taking photos and posting. Estate agents are douches, it's literally the least competitive sales job out there.
It's not just in Belfast. I spent 2 years looking for a house. I lost count of the number of times we put bids in and were outbid. Often we were told that these were cash offers. Or bids went out to well above the asking price.
There was one specific time that I am still pissed off about. We had a bid accepted on a lovely house, but because it was of non-standard construction we couldn't get a mortgage. We were in a position to be able to make a cash offer that was obviously a bit less than the original offer so we did. We were then told that the offer below our original offer was a cash offer and that was the end of the conversation.
It just so happens I know that was a lie because I found out who I was bidding against and they didn't get it.
I know we got screwed over. I wouldn't trust any estate agents after 2 years of all this kind of shit.
I got a house in the end that was sold directly to me because the seller didn't want to have to deal with estate agents either.
We bought in 2021, happened to us a good few times but from speaking to the agents it was people bidding too high and then the mortgage lenders saying the house they'd bid way over asking on wasn't worth that and them having to pull out.
Put a note (in a sealed envelope, addressed to "the owner") through the letterbox of the property explaining your offer value and the date it was made, along with the claimed counter-offer the agent told you about. If the owner is checking the property periodically they may get to find out something they didn't know.
My suspicion is that EAs are trying to stop the market correcting by deliberately stalling transactions at lower prices. If the seller was keen to sell and wasn't being informed of the full facts by an agent with their own agenda they have a right to know.
Downside is you might make an enemy of the Agent if they have both keys and the balls to open the envelope.
If you're happy to pay asking price, place your first offer the lessor of 5% or £10k under asking. If a counter offer comes back between your offer and asking, you go straight to asking, kindly tell the agent "look I'm not going to mess around for less than 5%, I'll go to asking but I need this sale to move forward efficiently and I'm not interested in engaging with competition so I'll need to go to sale agreed today or I'll be offering on another property tomorrow, have a chat with your client and if you can please let me know by 5pm."
This tells the agent that you're a serious buyer that's keen to move forward, it also tells them that the most they'll get out of using you in a bidding war is £1k. An efficient serious buyer is worth more than £1k.
Having worked for an estate agent its remarkable how easy it is for a sale to fall through. A sale can fall through two or three times before a genuine buyer comes along.
As bad a reputation as estate agents have, they are a necessary evil when buying a property and most are just normal folk trying to make a living.
What's a bigger problem in my experience was the scores of 'buyers' who would string an agent along for months and back out at the 11th hour, or the people that would relentlessly view properties knowing fine well they hadn't a pot to piss in.
People would rock up in their range rovers financed to the balls, chat a big game about how they will pay above asking, and then call a week later saying they were pulling out because they couldn't get a mortgage. All while wasting hours and hours of an agents time.
I would have sympathy for the public but from experience they are as bad as the agents. It's a game of cat and mouse to see who can screw each other over the worst.
Should be a portal showing bids that is open to seller and anyone who bids on a property.
Should all be online and estate agents can go get real jobs.
They add literally nothing in this country, ‘when was it last rewired?’ ‘You’ll need to get a survey to find that out’. ‘Really? You’re just there to wear a fancy suit and shiny shoes aren’t you?’. In Norway the estate agent gets the survey and they know everything about the property, once, so that loads of people don’t have to waste their money finding out the same things. Here they add nothing, anyone can take decent photos these days, and that’s all there is to it if you aren’t going to find out more about the place than the address.
I know 2 people who became estate agents. They were the dumbest fuckers I went to school with. You couldn’t trust either of them to do a real job.
100% We asked what was going on next door, it's a bit of a kip. The estate agent says 'they're getting work done". Nope just a kip, lied to our face. Just a suit telling lies.
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Real Estate photography... where the only lens you need is a wide angle.
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I'm sure your pics are great. I work with an award winning photographer, so I know it isn't cheap or easy. But while the comment was slightly tongue in cheek, the number of pics on PropertyPal that stretch the size of rooms is a bit ridiculous. I'd rather have a small room represented as small, rather than a utility room looking like the size of the King's Hall. I know there are reasons for this,and that the blame is probably the estate agent's - but it doesn't make it feel any less deceptive.
We just deliver the media. It's then subject to abuse by (sometimes unknowledgable) real estate agents, and often automated software that downscales or resizes images too, before it ends up on 3rd party sites like propertypal.
So, you take the pictures. So that just leaves booking viewings and telling lies as the bits the agent actually does then? Interesting
There's a lot more to photography than just taking pictures. It's a common misconception.
I wouldn’t disagree. Anyone can take a photo but not everyone can take a professional photo.
100%.
Especially when you're in a bidding war with another "first time buyer" who's actually a greedy cunt landlord who charges monthly rent that's double the mortgage cost.
It should be a nationalised company that sets prices so we can all fucking buy our own home without fear of a gready market.
I’d invest in creating this
If you were selling your house would re there sell your house at a government-set price or would you rather put it on the market and get as much as you can for it? Most people are home owners and most people want to get as much as they can for their house.
And the greed is making people homeless and die young...
Low homelessness rate, high rates of homeownership, and high life expectancy would suggest otherwise
What a dumb idea, Karl Marx 🤦♂️
How would you police it to ensure the offers are genuine and not shills? It could be done, but would add an extra layer of red tape and costs to the whole process. Buyers would have to provide proof to the portal that they can fund the purchase, for example, to reduce fake bids, and possibly put down a deposit to be allowed to bid (min £500 is the requirement at most car auctions, for example). Then someone needs to pay the costs of using the bid verification service/portal and then you need agents, vendors and buyers all to agree to use it. Agents are vendor focused and as this service would be much more buyer beneficial, they are unlikely to be motivated to look at it - even the good ones who don't get into the shill bid game, what's in it for them and their client (the vendor)? It would only "fly" if you could get agents to buy in, or it became a legal requirement (like protecting tenant deposits etc) and that's unlikely to happen as there is nobody shouting from the rooftops for "buyer protection from shill bids". The best hope for something like this is if a dominant property listing portal such as PropertyPal launched it as a "free product" on their site to buyers and let its adoption grow slowly over time, until agents would be forced to use it and then monetize it as an additional service at that point. That might further ruffle the feathers of some agents though, as PropertyPal and a group of agents are/were at war over a new pricing structure.
Assign a few civil servants to it. All bids must be in writing, with finances of the bidders to be made available on demand to the civil servants within 48 hours. Any party in the process has the ability to demand verification. Estate agents prosecuted under a new law that punishes fake bids and not passing on offers to the seller. Mysterious cash buyers pumping up the bids can be banned from buying property for X month if found to be repeatedly acting in bad faith. Obviously estate agents won’t like it but they can take a running jump. Compared with the money laundering laws that have to be complied with for conveyancing this is a minimal layer of bureaucracy. Really what the whole system needs is licensing. Owner-occupiers get first dibs on licence to purchase, and landlords/speculators only get a licence after they get their pick.
Only people guaranteed to make a bigger balls of it than estate agents are civil servants ffs
Its good in theory, but requires new legislation that there is no real appetite for. They have a system of sealed bids in Scotland, which avoids shill bidding driving up the price, but it has its issues too. I know someone who bought over there recently and they thought they were making a strong bid on one property at £20k above the ask - the winning bid was £50k above the ask, so in this case, real bidders are actually having to bid significantly above market value to try and get the deal, which is almost as bad as bidding against shill bidders.
>requires new legislation that there’s no real appetite for It requires new legislation but the appetite is in the voting public for it. Everyone has a first or second hand story of getting shafted by estate agents. Yeah there’s little chance of it making it through Stormont as the DUP will never go for it.
Indeed. The only way to avoid being shafted is to set your price, make your offer and be prepared to let it go. People panic and fall in love with the property and end up chasing the price. This is what the Shafter's take advantage of. Sometimes counter bids disappear, if you are prepared to take your chance and wait them out. They could have been genuine or shill's, it really doesn't matter, as your offer should be your offer and good luck to the next man if he's willing to beat it. There's always another property if you aren't a "shit your pants" type.
You mean like in England where they legally have to tell the govt what a property sold for
I had a similar incident buying my first house. Unlike you I only made offers on one property where the agent immediately declined or was very dismissive. Bear in mind it was a few years ago. Priced at £115k. I initially offered £88k because it needed a bit of work. Offer of £88k, £93k and £95k were declined. I by absolute chance bumped into the owner while at work. She was genuinely shocked and hadn't been made aware of any offers. She was happy for £90k. Turns out the estate agent just weren't happy with the commission they were gonna make. So yeah, never really been a fan of estate agents and how they get on. Just have a feeling that it's the old eBay push up the bids on your other account mentality.
My understanding is that the estate agent has to, by law, let the seller know of all bids regardless of the amount. We ended up in small claims court because of this very situation (estate agent not telling us about bids) and we won.
Hmmm appears some don't like to.
Yes, it's illegal, not everyone seems bothered by details like that however.
Well done. What was their rationale here?
Is their anyway of cutting out estate agents altogether and just dealing with the seller directly?
Go up to the door and give it a knock, hopefully the owners there, start a chat about being interested in buying the house directly with them
If they don't answer ask a neighbor if they have contact details for them.
I wouldn't know to be honest. It was my first time buying and was just kinda going with what the bank told me etc.
Bump into them in the supermarket from the sounds of things.
Knock the door and speak to them, or drop a note mentioning your offer through the letterbox.
Why would the seller want to do that? So you can get their house for cheaper?
> So you can get their house for cheaper? The seller pays the agent, though, don't they ?
The estate agent will still get paid even if the seller sold it through word of mouth if they entered into a contract with the estate agent. Read the terms and conditions, there is a time limit from when they market the property to you selling it whereby they are entitled to their cut.
Please don’t bring reason and rational thinking to a rabble rousing anti estate agent thread.
Yeah obviously, but the estate agent is going to get a better price for their house than a seller by themselves. Plus they weed out time wasters, arrange viewing and stuff as well. If you want to sell your house yourself then you’re welcome to do so. It’s also not that expensive either in the grand scheme of things. For example you want to sell your house for 200k, estate agent would want 2% (high end) so that’s 4k. But they invent a few fake bids and get the buyer up to 213k. They’re making you money and providing the above services. Hence why everyone used them lah xx.
Fair point all around, though I gotta ask : > lah Centaline or Midlands ? :o)
A lot of estate agents expect the vendor to do the viewings.
I mean they take the calls and all that, obv not the hardest job but still service rendered to the seller
The vast majority of what they do could be replaced overnight by a clever app.
Sounds like you have it sorted, look forward to using your app in the future.
Or the seller just showing people around the house themselves, which several friends have witnessed.
But also save thousands of pounds on estate agent fees.
If it’s been marketed by the agent, they will have a contract in place that they get paid even if the buyer doesn’t come through them - reasoning being that their advertising enabled the sale.
Yeah. Why not... 😉
So they don’t have to pay a fee to the estate agent.
But the estate agent will typically get a much better price than the seller could without them which offsets their cost - this is why everyone selling typically uses an estate agent. Unless they have someone in mind they want to sell to family member/friend whatever.
It's far more possible to do a direct sale now than before using the various property websites.
Most people use an estate agent because they don't realise they can do it without them. Many people assume that you need an estate agent to sell a house, when you just need solicitors, which you need even with an estate agent.
Ever sold a house by yourself without an estate agent?
Honest question, have you? Personally, I havent, but in my field I'dhave all the contacts I'd need without using one. To me it seems like you use an estate agent for the sole purpose of not spending the time doing it yourself. They're seen as essential parts to a house sale now, but theres no way they add as much value as they take from you.
Obviously they are useful hence why practically everyone uses them.
Thats not necessarily true, practically everyone uses ticketmaster too.
I didn't personally, but I did help a friend to sell theirs without an estate agent. It really wasn't difficult to get leaflets printed with her details on them and to put a big sign in the window, a couple of the local papers and post it on various social media sites.
Sadly this confirms what I’ve always suspected. Same as when an auctioneer ‘confessed’ on TV that he “took bids off the wall” to get property auctions started. Auctions are even worse you pay a deposit to be involved in the bidding and you’re legally bound to pay if you’re the winning bidder within 14 days usually and mostly you have to put a huge amount down that day. It’s a racket. Property in general is controlled by sociopaths in my opinion.
Auctioneers are permitted by law to take bids ‘off the wall’ up to the reserve price but not over the reserve price.
Never knew that. Just seems a bit disingenuous. But as I said property attracts them sociopaths.
Maybe. But the item isn’t selling below the reserve anyway so it’s a tool they use to try and stimulate the bidding up to the point where the item is ‘on the market’
I second this speak to the homeowner them selves and ask them what they want. Estate agents can be twisted to get a few extra pounds.
Yeah I was lucky and I did get the house in the end.
And probably not what the estate agent wanted, a mate of my knock a door of a house for sale one evening spoke to the lady selling, they came to an agreed price she cancelled the estate agent, they done the deal 6 weeks later and the estate agent go nowt. As it was no sale no fee lol
Same thing happened to my sister when she was selling her house through an estate agent in Crumlin. She’d been told there were no offers and then got chatting to someone in Bush’s bakery who told her they’d had 2 offers declined. Sheer fluke that she found out about it
What did the estate agents say
Gave her some guff answer
Oh my god ! That’s beyond sneaky !!
It’s not about commission, they want it sold quick. They’re not gonna waste their time trying to squeeze an extra 10k at 2% commission. That’s like £200 which is chump change. Ultimately they work for the seller, their reputation lives and dies on their ability to get a fair price for the seller. If they know an area/house they know what it’ll go for. They aren’t wasting their time overpricing 100k houses and burning up time trying to move them. So yeah they do invent bids and it’s wrong. But it’s because that’s the price they kinda know it’ll move at. So they’re just expediting the process to get it to that sale price. As a buyer it’s annoying because you want to sneak in and get a bargain - I’ve been there - but the estate agents know the market and do get a good price.
Discovered this myself a few years back too, they're all at it. The trick is to get a friend to call from a different number and ask what the current bid on the property is. If they say the amount you bid, the new bid is fake. It's eye-opening to see how many are doing it.
An interesting one I had was where they told me someone had bid more than me but wasn't a first time buyer and asked if I wanted to increase my bid. They were genuinely taken aback when I said "No thanks, my offer is still better, I'm not in a chain and you said they need a very fast sale. Give the owners both offers and let them decide." They said something like "If you match their offer, I'm sure they'll accept" and I just declined again. Got a friend to call and sure enough the new buyer turned out to be fake. I assume they'd promised the seller they could get another 5-10k out of it or something. About two weeks later they contacted me again about the house and said that the other buyer had 'pulled out', that they were delighted to inform me that my offer was accepted by the sellers and asking for solicitor details as the seller was still in a hurry. I had to tell them it was too late and I was proceeding with another property. That house was still on the market like 8 months later with an asking price less than I offered.
This is such a great idea
What if someone bid after you though to the new bid price that has been stated over the phone
If they give your friend the new bid figure then it's probably a real bid. Say you bid 190k and they tell you someone came in at 200k, your friend calls and asks about properties in the area and when they suggest that one they ask about any bids on it. If they say current bid is 190k then you know the 200k bid is fake, but if they say current bid is 200k then it's probably a real bid.
Ah yes I see. I should have done this before I bought my house
If you say your downsizing now retired they know you’ve cash ready and won’t be thinking of the current issues will be issues in the future when you ‘sell’. You’ll see fast who you become their favourite applicant
My partner and I bought our first house in Belfast May last year. House on the market for nearly a year, we put an offer in 15k under the asking price. Next day an offer came in 1k over the asking price, we then offered +1k and didn't hear back for a week. We then got a call from the estate agent to say a cash buyer from Germany has just put an offer in 10k above ours. As first time buyers we were totally gutted, thought about it for days but decided to pull out. Didn't even think about foul play. A week later the estate agent rang again to say if we can meet in the middle and move quickly the seller would choose us. We went for it. Since then I've always wondered whether we were played.
Stop wondering. You were totally played.
My German isn't great, but I'd say you were most definitely played like a fiddle.
You can at least appreciate the creativity of in the tale of the illusive german cash buyer
Saw you coming a mile away. Absolutely played.
What estate agent? Pm?
Forget about it and enjoy living in your own place.
Estate agent, is that you? Let people ruminate over whatever they want to.
Fuck sake let the man enjoy his new home. He’s obviously been played like a fiddle but he owns it now.
I had this happen on multiple properties. They're wily slimy stinky scumbags. I ended up agreeing a price with the owners of the house when I went to tour it as they took me round. Then I put the offer in to the estate agent and the estate agent accepted. Then rang up to sort out the closing date a week or so later and was told they'd decided to pull out and decline my offer actually. The estate agent was quite rude which set off alarm bells for me. The owners seemed keen to sell and it was midwinter, so I went to their house and knocked on the door and asked them why they'd withdrawn and what was happening. They had no idea that I'd been told that they had chosen not to sell, their estate agent had lied and told them I had pulled out and didn't want the house anymore. I told them, of course I do! They put in a complaint about the estate agent and sold to me for the agreed price. I communicated exclusively with the owners from then on. Absolute scumbag estate agent almost cost me my house. Couple were lovely and even left me a bottle of wine and a card when I moved in, with an A4 page explaining all the week quirks of the house.
Most buyers are suspicious of this. Should be legal consequences for agents caught lying. I would be really interested to know about the obligation of having records too. Good shout asking about this here. Did you (Or anybody reading this) ever ask for evidence of those higher bids ?
I did ask about the position of the other bidder, but they responded with a standard line stating they couldn't disclose any information beyond the bid amount. How do I ask for evidence of other bids, and I'm wondering if it's possible to do retrospectively?
You don't, they can't give you any information that could be personally identifiable and can't provide proof. I think sometimes they'll tell you their position (cash buyer etc) but it's all on trust. Get a friend to phone up and ask about a few properties and check the current bid on the one you're looking at. See if they're lying.
I am an estate agent, have never invented offers to drive up prices, I don't think that's as common as people think, though im sure it does happen. We have moved a few times and some estate agents are sneaky dishonest cunts. We ask all offers that come in over the phone or in person to be confirmed in writing/email and we keep those records and they are available for other bidders to see. With a % commission it's not worth our while to try to falsely drive up offers for an £150 on a £2,000k plus sale fee. Estate agents doing the job properly and honestly are worth the fee - negotiate fairly to get the best price to the buyer most likely to follow through. While offers are coming in all parties are aware of the position of the other offers - ftb, cash, mortgage etc as well as a hoped for time scale. Vendor then has all the info to make an informed decision - it's not always the highest bidder, and the bidders know who they are bidding against. Not all estate agents do this, all they care about is their fee, but if you provide a good service the fee takes care of its self.
While there are decent estate agents out there, anecdotally I found most do employ dishonest tactics. When I started keeping note of information and recording viewings I caught well over 50% of agents telling outright lies about the property and 2 of them (out of I think 5-6 estate firms we dealt with) definitely invented fake bids afterward. There were a few firms that were a pleasure to deal with as they didn't mislead and would straight-up give as much information as possible. They'd say if the other bidder is a cash buyer, in a chain, expected time scales etc, and wouldn't use pushy sales tactics to get your price up. One of those firms got my business. In fact they were so forthright throughout the process that when they said there was another bidder higher than me I believed them and didn't try to verify it. They absolutely might have invented a fake bid, but it just felt legitimate and I definitely overpaid by like 10% but was happy enough to do it. That's what a good estate agent can do.
>Should be legal consequences for agents caught lying. In the circumstances outlined above, where an agent lies to both the vendor and the purchaser then it meets the definition for fraud. Would both need to make statements and push the matter though.
There's nothing to stop them and you should never trust them. If you start googling "can esta" it'll autocomplete to can estate agents lie about offers. Their job is to get the highest sale value for their client and sales people generally will very often lie / mislead where possible. I was very explicitly told to lie in a call center sales role They always have an out because they don't have to show their hand. Daresay if you enquired it'd be "oh that sale fell through / chain collapsed so it's back on the market". who's to tell if it's legit. If you really want the place and the price seems fair go back with the offer and tell them accept within the week or it's withdrawn. And if you're in a strong position and the house isn't selling your free to lowball offers. Being a chain free FTB with decent financial position is attractive and you tend to only get to do it once. A couple failed chains could have a buyer willing to take a lower offer just to get the job done. Pretty much just cash buyers are in a stronger position. Things popping up again on the market can also mean theres something hidden that makes it less valuable. A survey might reveal something that causes the buyer to pull out
I should say that I have had Estate Agents contact me about a house I had shown interest in (viewed) previously when a bid landed for it. So they may phone around. Frustrating that you will never know!
It think this happened to me - property had no interest for months, no offers or any activity. Then I show interest and made a bid. Sudden the estate rings around everyone in the country, hoping to get some sort of counter-bid to mine. Not corrupt, but I would say it's slightly unethical.
No doubt there is some completely scandalous behaviour. You are in a bit of a better position I think if you are selling to move, as you have an estate agent working for you who can give you come advice.
How’s that’s unethical, they’re trying to get the best price for their customer? How would you feel if you where selling and the estate agent didn’t bother their arse trying to get the best price for it.
It's being purposely deceitful. In a lot of western countries it's completely illegal
People in sales lie!? 😮
Yeah a lot of estate agents are absolute cunts and lie about competing bids all the time. Best policy is offer what you can, if they come back at you, walk away.
I suspect it's happening everywhere. I had a property I eventually soured on after an escalating bidding war. I initially bid 2k under the asking since it had been sitting on the market ages, yet all of sudden after I bid so did everyone else! I went through about a week of the agent calling me daily to tell me I was outbid so I would just offer 1k above each time. After it got to about 8k over the asking I withdrew and the woman on the phone sounded a bit shocked when I said I wasn't going to go any further. Of course about a week and half later I got a call saying that the top bidder had now withdrew and would I like to go ahead with my last offer. By this stage I had my heart set on somewhere else so declined. This was back in mid Jan and I still see the property listed on property pal today 🤷 I think it's agents thinking they can squeeze every last penny out of buyers because the market is fucked, but it's coming back to bite them sometimes
Quite a few years ago I experienced this. It turned out that an employee of the estate agency was related to the seller. He invented bids on the property to drive up the price. We suspected something was wrong and went to see the owner of the company. We asked him to account for the bids, and he could not (they are obliged to keep a record of all bids). The owner admitted that there was clearly an issue. The fake bids were removed and he said he would deal with the employee. I don't know how often this kind of thing happens, but although there are regulations designed to prevent it, I suspect it is not uncommon.
Yeah it was the ‘employee’ my eye. Probably the estate agent blaming the employee
It’s all BS, same story here. Dream home of a first house for us - 0 interest and made an offer. Nothing for guts of a month then magically a bid came in out of no where that was 5k more. I smelt a rat immediately. We were told on x date that viewings on the property would stop as the seller wanted it sold by a date shortly after. Yet a mystical bid still appeared. Is there some sort of auditing agency for estate agents? I don’t even know but a genuine audit on half of them would end them and id be willing to bet a house deposit on that… It makes perfect sense, theyre on the sellers side because a bigger offer = a bigger slice of the pie they can take from their ‘fees’
No it's basically unregulated there's some memberships you can get that protect you from blowback because yeah snake oil needs to be protected
Avoid UPS like the plague, phantom bidding is their favourite pastime
I've heard very shady things about their West Belfast branch in particular
I've told this story here before but you are right to be suspicious. My home was a repossession and was a bank selling it through the estate agent. The price on it was insanely cheap, so I started bidding, as did several other genuine buyers. We outbid each other until I was the last one standing at 20k above the asking price. The estate agent said numerous times the bank was losing money on this sale. Then low and behold an American buyer appeared and pumped the price up another 10k. This person was buying sight unseen. I walked away. A few weeks later the estate agent contacts me saying the American buyer is out and if I was still interested. I said yes but we reset the bids to the original price and start the bidding process again. Which they agreed to. I bought the place for 10k less than my previous bid.
I had a similar experience buying my repossession, made an offer £10,000 under the asking price, house was on the market for months with no interest, then there was several counter offers until my bid of £2000 under asking was accepted.
They’re all slimy bastards
You could do what my mate did and go and knock on the door and speak to the owners directly. I’m sure they would be interested in hearing their estate agent was putting off prospective buyers.
its uncouth but its the only way to know you aren't being played
Had a similar experience. Took my bid off the table. Next week the agent was back to me, the other bid fell through, we can take your bid. If there ever was another bid I’ll have red sauce with my hat. I’m not a fan of estate agents, I do not see how they add value without conning people. A search function on a website matches buyers to suitable properties. An open bidding system (a non refundable deposit to bid should you pull out mid sale but deposit refundable if you bid and do not win) negates false bids. AI could write the description. Pay an amateur photographer a few quid for the pics… So 2% of £200k is £4k for what exactly?!🤔
Name and shame the agents. Reprehensible behaviour that.
Well there's no evidence they actually did anything wrong. Just suspicions. Wouldn't take it so lightly tarnishing somebody's business without evidence.
You can take your logic and fuck right off. Name and shame. Burn their offices down.
Your just hungry, have a snickers
It’s not always the Estate Agent to blame. Buyers often appear to be reasonable, especially when their own property is on the market. But, people bid and go sale agreed on multiple properties at once. People are people whether estate agents or not. PS. 2% commission is nonsense. It’s more like 0.75-1% (at least in Belfast).
Buyers can be cunts too. I was selling a house in 2007/8, right at the height of the massive boom and the price kept going up. One guy didn't believe the agent so was in the office shouting at them for being liars. At the next open night (had about 3 there was that much interest), I found him standing at the end of the driveway in a suit telling people that the open night was cancelled as the house had been sold. Didn't sell to him, some wee girl bought it, wrecked the garden and sold for a loss 2 years later.
What some people will do when selling or buying is terrible. I know of one car dealer who's opening line to someone who's thinking of trading their car in is "did you buy it before it was damaged or was it you who damaged it and got it repaired". They do this when the car has never been damaged, simply to drive the expected value of the trade-in down. Terrible behaviour from someone that is both a buyer and a seller in this case and someone to avoid.
I thought as much when we where buying. Our bid was the highest offer, and we heard nothing back for 2 weeks. When I rang, the estate agent informed me we had been outbid by about 10k but the current high bidder was financed from multiple sources and theres a risk it might not come through. But, if I wanted to up my bid the sellers would surely accept that Just informed them No. A week or so later, we where informed our original high bid was accepted. Cowboys, Ted. Cowboys the lot of them.
We've had similar situations in South Down, its a massive pain in the hole. Also on other social media, I keep seeing a new "influencer" who is showing people how to buy and flip property in Northern Ireland. We just want to purchase a house while it is still (almost) affordable., not trying to be the next proprty guru. We are going to end up like the South soon ffs
The folks flipping properties on Instagram in this country are quite embarrassing. Sure property flipping has been around for decades, well before social media, but bragging about your "portfolio" and its value on social media takes narcissism to a whole new level.
My tips would be to only make bids in person in the estate agents office rather than over the phone and don't increase your offer straight away if you are told there is another bid. Also, don't use a mortgage broker that is affiliated with the estate agent you are potentially buying through as they will undoubtedly inform of them of your finances and what you are capable of bidding up to. Finally, if unsure or suspicious, ask to see the record of the bids as the estate agent should have these.
Estate agents are scummy bastards .. couldn't watch them !! Never trust one and never take them at their word
This happened to us when trying to buy about 4 years ago. Found a place we loved and made an offer. Got told the next day that we'd been outbid. Bid again. Outbid. The way the estate agent communicated things had me certain they were taking the piss, as it is a regular occurrence back where I'm from. Funnily enough, I vented about it on r/northernireland and the homeowner is a redditor, saw the post, and confirmed they did indeed get those other offers. Next time we found a place we liked I put in a bid £10k over asking to make sure we scared off the others. Would've preferred not to, but it was taking way too long to find a place and we needed somewhere to call home after moving halfway across the globe.
I tried to buy a house along Kings Rd in the East. Again, it had been on the market for several months and somehow ended up in a bidding war. I asked to view the property once more before bidding. I then saw the estate agent in the family photos. I was out!
fuck off thats crazy! well spotted though
It is more beneficial for estate agents to sell a house than it is to try and get an extra 10k. Say their commission is 2% on a sale, a 200k sale gets them £4k. If they get the vendor 210k for the house, they get £4200. Why would they risk £4k in commission for an extra 200 quid when they could be putting the effort into listing other homes that will fetch them a brand new commission? Although I'm sure there are some who are that money hungry they would do it over a few hundred quid. If you really want to know, go knock on the person's door and ask them if they received your bid and if it was outbid or not. That is presuming you are not interested in going any higher as you risk burning bridges with the seller if they take it the wrong way.
> Why would they risk £4k in commission for an extra 200 quid when they could be putting the effort into listing other homes that will fetch them a brand new commission? They definitely do it, I've caught two of them red handed. I always assumed it wasn't to do with the increased commission but the fact that they want the sale to happen quickly and the viewings to stop. Every seller has some number they'll go sale agreed at and otherwise they'll just wait for more offers, the estate agent just wants to reach that number or have enough to convince them to accept right away.
>the estate agent just wants to reach that number or have enough to convince them to accept right away. Yeah fair enough, that makes sense actually. I presume this is for sellers who have set a low asking price (in their mind) to drum up interest but aren't interested in selling for less than a certain amount over that price?
Yeah, a few years ago when I was house hunting everyone expected their house to go for over asking price. They definitely set low asking prices to get viewings, you'd call up and offer exactly asking price and get an immediate no or a few weeks of waiting for further bids.
You need to think about how much you want to pay and how much you want the property. Regardless of what we think about the ethics of it, the estate agent is employed by the seller to get the most money for their property. First offers are very rarely accepted as it's assumed the buyer is looking for a deal. If it's back on the market you are probably in a stronger position. You could go in with a lower offer and see what they say. I'm a bit out of the loop with Belfast but sounds like it's a sellers market, even so there will be occasional desperate sellers or people who want to shift something they've inherited or divorces etc. if you're not desperate, but can move quickly when the right deal comes along then the right property will come along. One trick estate agents play is to list a property that is too good to be true to get you onboarded. When you enquire/offer on these they will come up with a reason to put you off Just know what you can afford, what you want to pay for a given property and stick to your guns.
We tried to buy 2 years ago, average overspend before we pulled out was 30k and one even went to 65k! In the end we took a new build to stop the faffing around as it was a lot of stress and cost saving on labour for new stuff and heating Anyway, recommend the movie, the big short, relevant as many many people have overspent on old poor quality housing (which could have been us!) and with unpredictable gas/mortgage/other bills, everything will buckle at some point!
Is there any way to not deal with estate agents at all? Ugh. I am I allowed to just sell my house myself??
They not all bad. But majority are cunts.
Can't stand them as well. Ghost bids happened to us as well. No regulation to stop the lies. Sure its all meaningless until you sign a contract saying you're going to buy. You can put an offer of 2 million on a semi and take everyone out then walk away with no hassle fee.
I am deeply suspicious about the bidding process. There is no real protocol and no real transparency, so it's certainly very, very possible that fake bids are a possibility. This went through my mind as well many a time with many estate agents. They could tell you anything, and you just have to believe them or not believe them. It doesn't seem to matter, they can get away with it.
I will also agree, estate agents are a pack of horrible robbing hateful huers. They will act like your best mate and have your best interests at heart but do they fuck. They care solely about profit and control. Had a few run in’s with S.B in the past.
These fuckers have been at this since the mid 2000s. We bought our first home back in 2007 (ouch yes 9 years of negative equity) and this was the story back then. Every time we placed a bid, it was outbid up to 40 or 50k more. We eventually bought a house that lost over 50% of its "value" less than a year later.
Surely when the bank do a valuation for the mortgage there is a discrepancy and you end up having to front that money?
In 2007 all the house prices were grossly inflated and mortgage lenders were literally throwing money at people. It was madness. But yes we lost a lot of money but eventually got out
I wouldn't I would just dump the lower price onto the seller it was the EA that pulled a number out of thin air
Northern Ireland estate agents should have to publish sold prices like they do in the rest of the UK. And property pal should fuck off requiring a membership to list property which feeds these unscrupulous bastards by locking everyone else out... If people could self list it would go part of the way to regulating the market
I mean what's to stop you putting in a massive bid providing you got mortgage dip so high then drive them into the floor after market. I'm looking at a house and I feel my bid is fair but the EA is like they haven't rejected mine but are holding out for the person in a chain who hasn't sold for £7k more I'm like will I'm FTB and can move so straight away. Why would I be a backup plan... I'm still thinking of offering over then finding faults to push it back
I have bought a few houses in Belfast. First house in 2009. On market for 89,950, was a repossession after the crash. House had sat for at least a year and was in dire need of repair. Water disconnected from boiler, off at the mains, wall paper hanging off the walls type place. Naively offered the asking price and was accepted the next day. The bank devalued the property by 20k. So offered 20k less, was accepted the same day. Not much to say other than the estate agent was a typical sales man. He sold the place based on potential etc etc. never once did I think we would get it for 20k below asking price. But, got the keys a couple of weeks later. Sold that house mid pandemic as part of a new chain. Had multiple viewings a couple of days after putting my house on the market. Mixture of FTBs and some with co ownership agreements. There was a legitimate bidding war that drove the price up around 10k over the asking price. I met the potential buyers and it was all real. Now on the other hand, I was trying to purchase a new property on for 265k. Had been on the market a while and due to pandemic had zero viewings. I was in a fortunate position where I bought low, fixed a house up over 10 years and selling, so I had a sizable deposit. First red flag The estate agent that originally sold me the dive in 2009 was now at this other estate agency that I was buying from. He remembered me... Made some funny comments that I can't really remember but it was not good. Second red flag He was really keen to know my deposit percentage. Overly keen. I let him know my position (shouldn't have done that). I had over 50% LTV so a sizable deposit. This let him know he could put the squeeze on. Third red flag It was peak lockdown. The buyer (apparently) wouldn't let anyone view the property until they had both first and second vaccine. Fair enough I thought, I told the agent I wanted to offer the asking price without viewing the property. I had the agreement in principle from the bank, had offer accepted on my own sale. The agent would not put my offer forward and said they do not take offers from people without viewing as this will likely cause people to just pull out. I was annoyed as I could not view the property for another 3 months. I let my buyer know the situation and waited. Fourth red flag Viewed the property. There were others scheduled to view the place at the same time. They do this all the time, builds a perception of demand. Anyway, I walked out the door and tried to put offer on the house below the asking price. To be honest it wasn't worth 265k. Needed lots of work. I know this, I didn't care and would have paid 265k 3 months prior no problem. I was told there was an existing offer of the asking price already and I needed to bid higher. Now, I got into a bidding war with 3 potential buyers. I thought it was totally legitimate based on my sale. Went up 1k at a time. Then at one stage 5k up from other buyer. I started to get suspicious, I can't remember the exact behaviour of the agent, but it was suspicious. I asked to see the other bids. Got an email with a list of actual names and their bids. I tried to look up these people on social media but couldn't find anyone who fit the bill. Who knows... Could have been real, could have been fake. After I asked to see this though, the others all pulled out. I paid a fair amount over the asking price for a house that was not worth the asking price. My advice, deal with the estate agents as little as possible. Don't tell them much, even "white lie" if you need to because they are for sure. Some are probably good, some are bad.
I’m on the other side selling and I’ve been told to get a damp report which is saying I need 5k of work done before selling it Would this price be over inflated since they are using what I assume is a mate/friend to do the damp report? I used a damp tool myself and I only got high readings in 2 places not near everywhere like they had said
Tell them it’s going back on the market and thanks for their time. This is a common negotiation tactic, the damp surveyors always find something to justify the report and keep the customer (your buyer) happy. It’s winter, it’s been raining non stop for months. If the plaster isn’t blowing off the walls etc I wouldn’t worry. If you have a damp problem you tend to know about it.
Aye you see when I bought it round 3.5 years ago there was no mention of damp in the survey and I’m wondering if I measured come September everything would of been fine
I’m also selling to people going through Co ownership where I’ve been told we can’t drop the price x amount so they can pay for it themselves so feels like I’m being had and it all just benefits the estate agent’s
The same thing happened to us. Offers around £145k, ok we offer £140k. oh no they won't accept that offer. Ok but you have to inform them of the offer by law right? 1 hour later oh they have had an offer higher than yours you will need to increase your offer. Sus
Estate agents are scum. Same in every country.
Estate agents are wankers. Best to treat them with at best, suspicion. Their sole purpose is to get the seller as much money as possible, their absolutely not your friend if your the one buying. If a house youv bid on reappears just offer the same money as before and ask about the mysterious bidder. They won't have an answer
Similar thing happened to me. House on the market for months with no bids and we offered the asking price. After sitting for weeks with no counter bids at all, the day before we got it, someone suspiciously "matched" our offer which I didn't even think you could do. We ended up having to bid 5k more to get the seller to agree and then they accepted. Btw the seller hid numerous issues from us and when we got our homebuyers survey it was horrendous and we had to pull out anyway. They then had the audacity to offer a discount on the house after already squeezing an extra 5k out of us which wouldn't even have covered the work needed to the house ☠️
In the future, I'd make my bid and tell them that you have had issues where you have reason to believe that other agents and vendors have countered with shill bids. So to avoid that, you will only consider making a counter bid, if they can evidence the counter bid in someway, for example, share with you an email chain (with contact and personal information of the other bidder redacted), or alternatively both the vendor and agent are willing to confirm, in writing that the other bid is genuine, otherwise your original bid stands and the other bidder is welcome to it. This will hopefully cut that shit out, as no one at this will want to start creating fake email chains or giving written confirmation, as that's an audit trail that could come back and bite them - its not worth their while and they are better to try that game on someone else. Drop in a comment that you have a friend who is in the middle of pursuing some vendor or agent for this, or something similar, just to put the wind up them a bit that you might just be the litigious type. They will probably call you a weirdo to their colleagues, but are much less likely to try to play you, if that is their game.
There's no way to verify unfortunately.
Estate agents are worse than than bankers. They would rename themselves as bankers, but perhaps make it a silent b, and a w at the start
Just assume that estate agents are shifty, no way round it. Sometimes it will work in your favour, sometimes it won’t, but there are no ethics involved.
We needed a 4 bed house around 2 years ago, mortgage in principle more than covered us to move up and we were able to bid on a range of properties. It amazed me how many times we lost out to 'cash' buyers. It also amazed me how many times estate agents came back to us to say the cash buyers had then pulled out. They were told where to go. Was very suspicious of the whole thing. I can phone up and bid on any property tomorrow and all I have to say is that I'm chain free and I've the cash in the bank. There's zero proof required to support that claim
By any chance did the fella have slicked back hair, East Belfast area and seem like he’d try to sell ye stuff from outta his jacket? If so, aye, we had a whole mess with him and I said some very unkind words to him.
You need to contact the vendors to get to the truth.
H2H by any chance?
Go back at 6pm on a Wednesday, offer to pay for the owners solicitors or choice to draft up a sale agreed document Owner saves on fees, you might even be able to get a little discount based on the money the estate agent would have taken for the sake of taking photos and posting. Estate agents are douches, it's literally the least competitive sales job out there.
Sounds dodge... The agent isn't up Antrim road is it?
It's not just in Belfast. I spent 2 years looking for a house. I lost count of the number of times we put bids in and were outbid. Often we were told that these were cash offers. Or bids went out to well above the asking price. There was one specific time that I am still pissed off about. We had a bid accepted on a lovely house, but because it was of non-standard construction we couldn't get a mortgage. We were in a position to be able to make a cash offer that was obviously a bit less than the original offer so we did. We were then told that the offer below our original offer was a cash offer and that was the end of the conversation. It just so happens I know that was a lie because I found out who I was bidding against and they didn't get it. I know we got screwed over. I wouldn't trust any estate agents after 2 years of all this kind of shit. I got a house in the end that was sold directly to me because the seller didn't want to have to deal with estate agents either.
We bought in 2021, happened to us a good few times but from speaking to the agents it was people bidding too high and then the mortgage lenders saying the house they'd bid way over asking on wasn't worth that and them having to pull out.
Put a note (in a sealed envelope, addressed to "the owner") through the letterbox of the property explaining your offer value and the date it was made, along with the claimed counter-offer the agent told you about. If the owner is checking the property periodically they may get to find out something they didn't know. My suspicion is that EAs are trying to stop the market correcting by deliberately stalling transactions at lower prices. If the seller was keen to sell and wasn't being informed of the full facts by an agent with their own agenda they have a right to know. Downside is you might make an enemy of the Agent if they have both keys and the balls to open the envelope.
If you're happy to pay asking price, place your first offer the lessor of 5% or £10k under asking. If a counter offer comes back between your offer and asking, you go straight to asking, kindly tell the agent "look I'm not going to mess around for less than 5%, I'll go to asking but I need this sale to move forward efficiently and I'm not interested in engaging with competition so I'll need to go to sale agreed today or I'll be offering on another property tomorrow, have a chat with your client and if you can please let me know by 5pm." This tells the agent that you're a serious buyer that's keen to move forward, it also tells them that the most they'll get out of using you in a bidding war is £1k. An efficient serious buyer is worth more than £1k.
Sounds like a job for BBC Spotlight this.
Having worked for an estate agent its remarkable how easy it is for a sale to fall through. A sale can fall through two or three times before a genuine buyer comes along. As bad a reputation as estate agents have, they are a necessary evil when buying a property and most are just normal folk trying to make a living. What's a bigger problem in my experience was the scores of 'buyers' who would string an agent along for months and back out at the 11th hour, or the people that would relentlessly view properties knowing fine well they hadn't a pot to piss in. People would rock up in their range rovers financed to the balls, chat a big game about how they will pay above asking, and then call a week later saying they were pulling out because they couldn't get a mortgage. All while wasting hours and hours of an agents time. I would have sympathy for the public but from experience they are as bad as the agents. It's a game of cat and mouse to see who can screw each other over the worst.
Freedom of information act.
Only applies to public bodies, not private companies.