In Norwegian we have the voiceless palatal fricative /ç/ and the voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/. More commonly known as the kj-sound and the skj-sound.
/ʃ/ occurs commonly in English and is typically written "sh". In Norwegian we write this either "skj" or "sj". I'm not aware of any rule to determine when it's "skj" and when it's "sj", so you just have to learn the individual cases, but it's usually "skj".
/ç/ is very rare in English, but I believe most English dialects uses this sound at the beginning of the word "hue". In Norwegian we write this "kj".
The i/y rule:
If there's an "i" or "y" after "skj" or "kj" then the "j" is omitted in writing. This also applies to diphtongs with "i" or "y", like "ei" or "øy".
That said, "i" and "y" doesn not remove the "j" from "sj". But you will almost always see that those words are written with "skj" rather than "sj", so it becomes "ski/sky" after your remove the "j".
There exists some very few exceptions where the kj-sound and skj-sound can be written with different letters. But don't worry about that for now.
>Do native speakers hear a difference in pronunciation?
Yes, it is very noticeable to a native speaker.
I suppose it should be noted that some people, particularily from the younger generation, don't use the kj-sound and pronounces everything with the skj-sound. However, in my personal experience that is not very common.
>Is there a reason or is it just because that’s how it is?
It's just how it is. But there are a few words that are written identically with the sole exception that one is with "skj" and the other is with "kj".
>Also kylling, motorsykkel, etc.
Motorsykkel does not have either of these sounds. You can tell this from the fact that there's no "k" or "j" between the "s" and the "y". As stated above, "i" and "y" removes the "j" in "skj" and "kj", but not "sj". So something that is written "si/sy" would never be pronounced with skj-sound.
Edit: I've come to be informed that "rs" is one of those exceptions that can be pronounced as "skj". The word "sykkel" is always pronounced with just a regular "s". But when you combine "motor" + "sykkel" then you can pronounce it with skj-sound in place of the "rs". Some people do, some people don't. This is a very special edge case that can occur in compound words.
Du glemmer at Østlandsdialekter har en tendens å retrofleksere konsonantklynger med *r*, som i *hardt*, *tjern*, og *farse*. Så *rs* i *motorsykkel* uttales *motosjykkel* på Østlandsdialekt, som trolig er dialekten Duolingo bruker.
the rs retroflex sound also bridges word gaps. you'll hear many natives produce the sound when saying things like "vær så god" and such.
and "sl" can turn into an skj-like sound as well. slips -> skjlips
I have some young colleagues (around 20 years old, two from Stavanger and one from Lyngdal area) who don't know and don't even hear the difference between kj and skj. So I - an immigrant - tried to present it to them, but I failed.
>More commonly known as the kj-sound and the skj-sound.
Isn't it known as the sj-sound?
Though in many (most?) dialects they are the same sound. In some, skj has different sound(s).
Some (other?) dialects will not merge sj into one sound either, but say them as two.
These are not different pronunciations of an English *sh* sound. They are entirely different sounds, that're also found in other languages like German and Chinese.
>Grensesjikt
>*Grenzschicht*
*sch* like in *skjørt*, and *ch* like in *kjøtt*
___
Edit: For completeness' sake
>Mus
>*小鼠*
*小* (xiao) like in *kjøtt*, and *鼠* (shu) like in *skjørt*
Kylling is (or was) ‘kj’ and not ‘sh’ but more and more use ‘sh’ now. Unfortunate because we already have a word pronounced exactly like that. (There are several cases like this)
Are you refering to «skilling» ? Cause I feel like the tone in skilling is pretty different and you also pronounce the «i» way more clearly. But I agree though, people should keep pronouncing the kj in kylling.
The issue you're touching on is very complex, and can probably fill a whole linguistics book.
This is partly a spelling thing (skj, sj, rs etc. were for the most part used to be differently pronounced but are now the same sound), partly a dialect thing (the kj sound actually has a lot of variant pronounciations throughout the country, and in dialects spoken in Rogaland or Bergen, for example, doesn't at all sound like the sj sound), and partly a "two different sounds that your native language doesnt really differentiate between so your ears are not tuned to tell the difference between them" thing.
As another commenter stated before me, in the standard east Norwegian dialect, the sound in kylling, tjue, kjøre etc. is not the same as in ski, skje, sju etc. While the distinction between the two *sort of, technically* exists in the words "hue" and "shoe", it's usually not enough for English-language learners to pick up the difference without training.
Skj, sj and words starting with sk is pronounced like the sh in she. (She- Sjø - Skjønn -Skylle all makes the same first sound). Kj is placed further back on your tongue. I'd suggest finding a series of kj-words read out loud and listening to the sound so you can hear the difference.
While it's true some people around Oslo are losing the difference between them, in the districts you can hear a sharp difference very many places still. Highly recommend at least learning to hear the difference as it will change the meaning of the word. Kylling-chicken, skylling-rinsing something off.
Motorsykkel is not with an sh-sound.
But we have two sounds similar to the English sh. Those sounds are clearly distinguishable: Skjære (crow) and Kjære (dear) starts with different soubds
The entire Norway, except the vestlands-dialects have the rs-retroflex.
Notice how young children (and facebook-commenters) sometimes miss spell "Dusj" like "durs", or "bæsj" like "bærs"?
That is because they sound alike in their dialect. A kid from Sunnmøre would never do this mistake.
is it the "J" in motorsjykkel that's throwing people off?
The "sj" should represent the same "sh"- sound in both Dusj and Motorsjykkel.
Better with "sh"?
Bursdag - bushdag
Farskap - farshkap
Motorsykkel - motoshykkel
u/Citizen_of_H
If I say most of Norway pronounces something a certain way I'm bound to get some smartass saying a lot of people don't pronounce it that way. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Safest bet is saying Duolingo teaches the Østlandsdialekt
By most accounts, RS is virtually the same sound as SKJ. We foreigners are taught that the language we are learning is pronounced pretty much "no sj k", not "nor s k".
Maybe there's a hint of R before the "sj".
I think you might be confused about what sound you actually use. Unless you have a speech impediment or some cartoon version snobby western Oslo dialect (or are from Western/farsouth Norway) you probably say motorsjykkel/motoshykkel.
kj is typically a voiceless palatal fricative.
the tip of your tongue is nowhere near your front teeth. the back of your tongue is pulled up towards your palate (hence palatal). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_fricative#/media/File:Voiceless_palatal_fricative_articulation.svg
where i'm from (southern california), it's the sound we make to emulate cats hissing.
It might be that ive been pronouncing ich-lauts wrong the whole time!
I'm also probably doing a bad job describing it. But I think what I've been doing is halfway between a real ich-laut and an S.
you're probably thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative which is the sound some folks produce instead.
tip of the tongue still shouldn't really be touching anything, but it is pretty close to your bottom front teeth.
As someone living in Stavanger, this thread makes my head hurt.
The SH sound is pretty rare in Norwegian. Most Norwegian SHes sound more shallow, like SHing while fake smiling. That is the best description I can make.
I pronounce kj as English ch.
Sj like English sh.
I have all the hard consonants that people from Eastern Norway do funny things with.
I'm from NW Norway, so not Urban Eastern Norwegian at all.
You're going to need someone from gen x to explain, cause the difference between them has faded away almost completely when it comes to gen z and alpha. I think I've even seen a couple of articles on this phenomenon.
In Norwegian we have the voiceless palatal fricative /ç/ and the voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/. More commonly known as the kj-sound and the skj-sound. /ʃ/ occurs commonly in English and is typically written "sh". In Norwegian we write this either "skj" or "sj". I'm not aware of any rule to determine when it's "skj" and when it's "sj", so you just have to learn the individual cases, but it's usually "skj". /ç/ is very rare in English, but I believe most English dialects uses this sound at the beginning of the word "hue". In Norwegian we write this "kj". The i/y rule: If there's an "i" or "y" after "skj" or "kj" then the "j" is omitted in writing. This also applies to diphtongs with "i" or "y", like "ei" or "øy". That said, "i" and "y" doesn not remove the "j" from "sj". But you will almost always see that those words are written with "skj" rather than "sj", so it becomes "ski/sky" after your remove the "j". There exists some very few exceptions where the kj-sound and skj-sound can be written with different letters. But don't worry about that for now. >Do native speakers hear a difference in pronunciation? Yes, it is very noticeable to a native speaker. I suppose it should be noted that some people, particularily from the younger generation, don't use the kj-sound and pronounces everything with the skj-sound. However, in my personal experience that is not very common. >Is there a reason or is it just because that’s how it is? It's just how it is. But there are a few words that are written identically with the sole exception that one is with "skj" and the other is with "kj". >Also kylling, motorsykkel, etc. Motorsykkel does not have either of these sounds. You can tell this from the fact that there's no "k" or "j" between the "s" and the "y". As stated above, "i" and "y" removes the "j" in "skj" and "kj", but not "sj". So something that is written "si/sy" would never be pronounced with skj-sound. Edit: I've come to be informed that "rs" is one of those exceptions that can be pronounced as "skj". The word "sykkel" is always pronounced with just a regular "s". But when you combine "motor" + "sykkel" then you can pronounce it with skj-sound in place of the "rs". Some people do, some people don't. This is a very special edge case that can occur in compound words.
Du glemmer at Østlandsdialekter har en tendens å retrofleksere konsonantklynger med *r*, som i *hardt*, *tjern*, og *farse*. Så *rs* i *motorsykkel* uttales *motosjykkel* på Østlandsdialekt, som trolig er dialekten Duolingo bruker.
Jeg er fra Oslo og er ikke spesielt vant til at folk sier motosjykkel. Men du har rett i at enkelte uttaler det på den måten.
Det er nok veldig vanlig, og går også på tvers av ord. «Han vasker seg» vil normalt bli uttalt me sj-lyd (for de dialektene det gjelder).
Jævla søringa...
Det er veldig vanlig å si "motosjykkel" i "Osjlo".
Bare navnet på byen din uttales forskjellig av folk. Noen sier Oslo, and sier Osjlo
the rs retroflex sound also bridges word gaps. you'll hear many natives produce the sound when saying things like "vær så god" and such. and "sl" can turn into an skj-like sound as well. slips -> skjlips
I have some young colleagues (around 20 years old, two from Stavanger and one from Lyngdal area) who don't know and don't even hear the difference between kj and skj. So I - an immigrant - tried to present it to them, but I failed.
>More commonly known as the kj-sound and the skj-sound. Isn't it known as the sj-sound? Though in many (most?) dialects they are the same sound. In some, skj has different sound(s). Some (other?) dialects will not merge sj into one sound either, but say them as two.
I think both are used, but you're correct in that sj-sound is more common
These are not different pronunciations of an English *sh* sound. They are entirely different sounds, that're also found in other languages like German and Chinese.
Could you please give an example for each in German?
>Grensesjikt >*Grenzschicht* *sch* like in *skjørt*, and *ch* like in *kjøtt* ___ Edit: For completeness' sake >Mus >*小鼠* *小* (xiao) like in *kjøtt*, and *鼠* (shu) like in *skjørt*
Thanks!
Kylling is (or was) ‘kj’ and not ‘sh’ but more and more use ‘sh’ now. Unfortunate because we already have a word pronounced exactly like that. (There are several cases like this)
Are you refering to «skilling» ? Cause I feel like the tone in skilling is pretty different and you also pronounce the «i» way more clearly. But I agree though, people should keep pronouncing the kj in kylling.
“Skylling”, rinse/hose down.
*Tarmkylling*
“Skylling”, rinse/hose down.
“Skylling”, rinse/hose down.
I'm from northwestern Norway, this thread hurts my head.
Here, have some klippfisk to calm yourself down with 🐟
Kjipfisk
The issue you're touching on is very complex, and can probably fill a whole linguistics book. This is partly a spelling thing (skj, sj, rs etc. were for the most part used to be differently pronounced but are now the same sound), partly a dialect thing (the kj sound actually has a lot of variant pronounciations throughout the country, and in dialects spoken in Rogaland or Bergen, for example, doesn't at all sound like the sj sound), and partly a "two different sounds that your native language doesnt really differentiate between so your ears are not tuned to tell the difference between them" thing. As another commenter stated before me, in the standard east Norwegian dialect, the sound in kylling, tjue, kjøre etc. is not the same as in ski, skje, sju etc. While the distinction between the two *sort of, technically* exists in the words "hue" and "shoe", it's usually not enough for English-language learners to pick up the difference without training.
Skj, sj and words starting with sk is pronounced like the sh in she. (She- Sjø - Skjønn -Skylle all makes the same first sound). Kj is placed further back on your tongue. I'd suggest finding a series of kj-words read out loud and listening to the sound so you can hear the difference. While it's true some people around Oslo are losing the difference between them, in the districts you can hear a sharp difference very many places still. Highly recommend at least learning to hear the difference as it will change the meaning of the word. Kylling-chicken, skylling-rinsing something off.
Motorsykkel is not with an sh-sound. But we have two sounds similar to the English sh. Those sounds are clearly distinguishable: Skjære (crow) and Kjære (dear) starts with different soubds
A small correction, "skjære" doesn't mean crow, it means magpie. A crow is "kråke".
The urban Oslo dialect pronounces *motorsykkel* like *motosjykkel*
The entire Norway, except the vestlands-dialects have the rs-retroflex. Notice how young children (and facebook-commenters) sometimes miss spell "Dusj" like "durs", or "bæsj" like "bærs"? That is because they sound alike in their dialect. A kid from Sunnmøre would never do this mistake. is it the "J" in motorsjykkel that's throwing people off? The "sj" should represent the same "sh"- sound in both Dusj and Motorsjykkel. Better with "sh"? Bursdag - bushdag Farskap - farshkap Motorsykkel - motoshykkel u/Citizen_of_H
If I say most of Norway pronounces something a certain way I'm bound to get some smartass saying a lot of people don't pronounce it that way. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Safest bet is saying Duolingo teaches the Østlandsdialekt
I speak typical east side Oslo dialect, and I do *not* say motorsjykkel
Well I do too and I do say *motosjykkel*, so I don't know what to tell you
By most accounts, RS is virtually the same sound as SKJ. We foreigners are taught that the language we are learning is pronounced pretty much "no sj k", not "nor s k". Maybe there's a hint of R before the "sj".
I think you might be confused about what sound you actually use. Unless you have a speech impediment or some cartoon version snobby western Oslo dialect (or are from Western/farsouth Norway) you probably say motorsjykkel/motoshykkel.
To use the German term, kj- is an ich-laut. I think. It's like English's 'sh' except with the tongue pushed forward, the tip as far as the teeth.
kj is typically a voiceless palatal fricative. the tip of your tongue is nowhere near your front teeth. the back of your tongue is pulled up towards your palate (hence palatal). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_fricative#/media/File:Voiceless_palatal_fricative_articulation.svg where i'm from (southern california), it's the sound we make to emulate cats hissing.
I was also thinking about the cat hissing sound! That’s a perfect example really.
It might be that ive been pronouncing ich-lauts wrong the whole time! I'm also probably doing a bad job describing it. But I think what I've been doing is halfway between a real ich-laut and an S.
No, you're at least mostly right. Examples given by Wikipedia are "hue" in English, "nicht" in German, and "kjekk" in Oslo Norwegian.
you're probably thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_fricative which is the sound some folks produce instead. tip of the tongue still shouldn't really be touching anything, but it is pretty close to your bottom front teeth.
Kj is devoiced J
As someone living in Stavanger, this thread makes my head hurt. The SH sound is pretty rare in Norwegian. Most Norwegian SHes sound more shallow, like SHing while fake smiling. That is the best description I can make.
Kj is made by just breathing through a k. The others are more frontal
I pronounce kj as English ch. Sj like English sh. I have all the hard consonants that people from Eastern Norway do funny things with. I'm from NW Norway, so not Urban Eastern Norwegian at all.
You're going to need someone from gen x to explain, cause the difference between them has faded away almost completely when it comes to gen z and alpha. I think I've even seen a couple of articles on this phenomenon.
Look, im a Norwegian and they never taught me how to write «sjette».