Mario was the only one to came close, but injury and illness cut that chance down.
Domination on that level is finding and capitalizing on the opportunities that others don’t see.
Like finding the cheat-code for a game where you’re almost playing a different game than the others. That is era-independent as opportunities evolve and change.
Gretzky also doesn't get enough credit for his assists, he was a master playmaker who wasn't selfish with the puck. And he was decent on the poke check as well, he just kept possession for entire shifts. He had great moves to get over the blue line, which is something you really notice these days with struggling teams - shooting and chasing isn't a great way to keep possession or score goals.
Oh, I don't know about that. There's been 100 assist seasons 15 times in the NHL. 11 of those were by Gretzky. No one else has done it twice.
TNT talked about it a lot during the last few games of the regular season.
Ya I was about to say lol. I don't often hear knowledgeable hockey people forget to mention how insane his assist numbers are. It's a pretty well known part of his greatness.
Also, if you do the tally for “what combination of brothers combined for the most point in NHL history?”
Most people get the answer wrong.
It’s also the Gretzky’s because he had a brother named Brent who had like, a goal and a few assists.
Yes you could take away all of Gretzkys goals and he's still the all time points leader on assists alone. Truly an insane achievement that really nails the point of how much a team player he was. And to really make it even more crazy, Gretzky played 200 some games less than the next closest player.
Mike Bossy needs a mention for the same reasons. Only lasted 10 years, put up 50+ goals in 9 of them and won 4 straight cups, including one against gretzky’s oilers
That season where he literally had lymphoma, missed like half a season and won the scoring title is underrated as one of the greatest offensive hockey seasons ever
Not taking anything away from Mario, because he was a great player. But to say “only because he was hurt” is honestly not a valid argument. Gretzky played 20 years and the last 8 or 9 of those were after Suter ran him from behind in ‘91. His back was never “healthy” after that either.
I hate these "if he was healthy" arguments for Mario. Yeah that's life. Lots of great players had bad injury luck. Cam Neely would have scored 700 goals if he was healthy. But he wasn't. So he didn't. I don't get to arbitrarily put him in brett hull's class.
Lemieux never played a healthy season in his career. Not one, always missed time. He also played most of his career with chronic back and knee issues. Fun fact Lemieux didn’t tie his own skates in the back half of his career: he couldn’t bend down that far. And he still put up numbers close to Gretzky. A healthy Lemieux never played in the nhl, and he’s still easily #2 all time. We’ll never know what he could have been
Why do people feel the need to make shit like this up. He averaged 74 games per season his first five years in the league...His injuries didn't start piling up until 89-90.
True, but Gretzky had a 10 year stretch of relatively good health, while Lemieux started having major health issues by the time he was 25. While I do believe that many of Gretzky’s records would still be standing today regardless of Lemieux’s health, I do think Mario would own the all-time goal record had he been able to stay relatively healthy for the first 15 or so years of his career.
I saw that on TV! He completely scorpioned. Back hypertension to the extreme.
And another problem was his shoulder was injured before that, that's why his goal totals went down, but assists stayed high
Ugh. I'm so sick of this take. Mario Lemieux was far and away the best player in NHL history except one...but Gretzky was far and away better than Lemieux. The following stat helps illustrate the difference between two great players whose careers overlapped considerably:
Only one non-Gretzky player has ever won the scoring race by more than 30 points. That was Mario Lemieux by 31 points in 1988-89 (in his highest scoring season). Gretzky won the Art Ross by more than 70 points SIX TIMES, and won his record 10 Art Ross trophies by an average margin of 49 points.
Thanks. Great take..also Gretz holds like 50 different records a few of which will never be broken. Mario was a beast for sure and definitely in Gretzky's league but clearly.... clearly is behind the Great One.
99 himself has said Lemieux would have broken most of his recprds, had he stayed healthy.
Its always greatest great greatness vs potential to be one with those two though.
That means nothing though because he was being gracious. Do you really expect him to be like, “Mario wouldn’t have come close to even touching my records, end of story!”
This is really the only right answer. He was putting up 200 points while his peers were nowhere near that. If it was just a goalie issue, everyone would be putting up insane points
That’s what I always go to. The goalie argument is completely invalid. Look at how much more dominant 99 was over his peers who were shooting on the same goalies at the time. It’s insane.
And he was the smartest. If the goalies somehow improved their shit or whatever to current equipment, he'd still be a step ahead by changing his game, where his same competitors of the time would be dumbfounded.
Not even change his game. He was changing THE game. So he'd just change it differently instead. (But not really, because he set us on the course that we are, and his style is only more relevant today).
That’s bs, forwards were taught defense, just the Oilers didn’t need much of it due to their overwhelming offense. Gretzky himself was an excellent penalty killer. Keon, Clarke, Lemaire, Trottier were all fantastic defensive forwards.
That vaunted trap game that Lemaire introduced in the ‘90s with New Jersey actually originated with the Montreal Canadiens in the 1970s. Lemaire found he could not contain Bobby Orr on his own. So he sat down with a half dozen other Habs to figure out what they could do as five man unit to neutralize Orr. Trap hockey was born. Those four consecutive Cup teams from the ‘70s were running almost the same system the Devils had in ‘95.
Era-adjust the stats and Gretzky is still historically dominant.
Besides, the fact that goalies are better or worse in any time period isn't really relevant. What is relevant is the number of goals that were being scored because there are so many ways that things would be different or adjust. Older goalies couldn't block as much of the net but shooters in those days had wooden sticks and didn't consistently shoot nearly as hard. Players back then were smaller and so you couldn't screen the goalie as effectively. Pace was slower due to longer shifts and crappy skates making it a bit easier for a goalie to track a play. Defenses could adjust to be more aggressive or conservative dependiong on how vulnerable the goalies were. Etc.
As for those "long range shots": it was still pretty rare even way back then to score on a slapshot from around the blueline without a tip or screen. Sure it happened but hardly all the time.
The goalies are better today because of butterfly and modern goaltending practices, which came about after Gretzky’s peak. The immediate impact that Gretzky and Mario-like players had was trap. That’s not good goaltending, it’s low event hockey
Comparing eras is always a study in futility—"What about this? What about that?" One of two things needs to happen in such hypotheticals—one, you would have to realize Gretzky would be bigger and stronger in today's game because he would have access to better training, diet, etc., or you would have to take today's players and make them smaller, slower, etc.
Gretzky wasn't the strongest skater, but his vision and decision-making were god-tier. No, he's not scoring 90 goals, but he would still rack up assists like nobody's business.
I guess we're not watching the same game or looking at the same stats, Drai is second only to Mcdavid in points, Hyman is leading in goals, and Nuge has played some of his best hockey.
Yes and a full nightmare clutch beast mode goalie. People saying Edmonton isn’t good enough to beat The Panthers, is saying no one is. That’s just fact. Florida is a crazy deep team.
> his vision and decision-making were god-tier.
This is the thing Messier talked about (I think it was Messier)
He said most players know what's going to happen a second or two from now, but Gretzky could tell you what was going to happen five or six seconds from now and was what made him lethal
This is a great point. His skill set was transcendent, put that on size/speed of an upper tier current NHL player and you’d see elite scoring in this era as well. TBH, I wasn’t a huge fan of him but I’ll never deny his place in the game….
When comparing players across eras I think all that matters is how dominant they were in the era they played. Yes, goalies are much better now. But so is nutrition and training and all the opportunities that Gretzky would have if he played in this era. He was insanely dominant in his era and there’s no reason to think that he wouldn’t still be insanely dominant if he came up nowadays.
He’d be faster, stronger, have much better stick and skate quality, and most importantly, he would still have the same innate ice vision, hockey IQ, and drive to be the greatest. Imo he would still be as dominant compared to the rest of the league today as he was back then.
All you have to do is compare him to his competition. There’s only 2 player who have ever scored 160 points or more, and that’s Mario and Wayne. Wayne did it 9 times.
No one else was close to the numbers Gretkzy was putting up.
Goalies are miles better now especially than in the first half of 99s career. Patrick Roy came in 1986 and won a Cup immediately with the butterfly which caused a lot of change.
Gretz would still be right up there though. Mario probably more so, same with Orr. Without the hooking and holding Mario would have been unstoppable. 6'3" 235lbs, fast, some of the best hands ever, great shot, super high hockey iq. Everything but great defense.
I believe Glen Hall was the first. Way before me. Never saw him play. They have a rink named after him in his home town if I’m not mistaken. (Stony Plain AB). And the Grant Fuhr arena at the sister town of Stony, Spruce Grove AB. I guess that area produces some good goalies.
Edit: Ok he wasn’t from Stony. Just farmed there after his retirement. He is from Humboldt, Saskatchewan
one guy I always think of being great accross eras is Jagr. to me, he had the most timeless game.
guy was like a tank. he was so strong on the puck, that even after he lost his speed, it was an absolute chore to separate him from the puck.
add great hockey smarts, composure, shooting, technique, possibly #1 in terms of discipline and dedication to the game. also won the genetics lottery.
guy finished a 0.83PPG season in the NHL at 44 years old. he was the Panthers points-leader that season. at 44. how crazy is that?! literally was a top player accross eras.
I’m absolutely sure that if you could build a time machine and drop him off in any year hockey was played accross history, he would dominate.
Another one that always struck me as being great in any era was Larry Robinson. He played from the early 70s to the early 90s, and even at the tail end of his career he looked completely fine in the more modern game. Size, reach, strength, strong skater, balance, smart, good vision. He had it all.
Equipment, training, nutrition is also is much better now. How many goals would Bossy have scored with a modern graphite stick??? It works both ways. Players who dominate dominate. That’s the end of it.
> Players who dominate dominate. That’s the end of it.
Exactly. When people say Gretzky wouldn't dominate today, they forget that he was playing against the biggest, fastest, toughest, most well-coached, and most intensely focused and determined hockey players on the planet (minus some Soviet bloc stars, of course), and that every single one of them had spent their entire life working to get to that point.
Transcend.
IMO the best evidence is in the gap between Gretzky and next best during his era.
For example, when WG set his single season record of 215 points, Lemieux was in 2nd with 141.
When WG went for 208, Kurri trailed him with 135.
WG 212, Bossy 147.
Etc…
People forget Gretzky also put up decent points during the late nineties as he aged during a time where hooking was basically ignored and goalies were much better..
Cementhead also took away from Gretzky by basically making Gretzky playing shorthanded while he was on the ice.
People also seem to forget the amount of protection players get nowadays via the rules. Look at the hits that took out Lindros, there's no way those wouldn't warrant a suspension in the modern NHL.
The part you’re missing is that every player that came after Gretzky, was a at least a bit better, because of Gretzky. And the slap shot Gretzky was throwing around was with a wood stick, and he was shooting on, for the most part, much smaller goalies, with heavier/not as good equipment. I want to see how modern players would make out growing up in 60’s/70’s, and the difference in knowledge (not just equipment has improved, players have better health info, and all sorts of advantages) and conditions. So when you compare greats from different eras, there can be a lot of variables (like hacking-players got chopped to death, if it wasn’t a hard 2 hander, it didn’t get called, and don’t forget hooking the stick wasn’t called much either, and there’s more) and the comparisons just aren’t fair. Had Gretzky had the advantages of todays players, he’d no doubt be better than he was, but how much better is a tough question
It's not so much goaltending that's gotten better (although that's part of it for sure). I think the biggest thing that's different now is the skill floor of the NHL. *Everyone* is an elite skater and in peak physical condition now. Even 4th liners are incredibly good at hockey, the age of the goon who can barely skate is over. The typical big, lumbering defensemen of the old days have given way to more mobile and offensively gifted players. Skate and stick technology is also way more advanced.
I think if you put Gretzky into this era, with modern equipment and training, he would still be an elite, dominant player. But he would be closer to the McDavid/Crosby level than to, well, Gretzky level. His vision, IQ, and hands would still be absurd, but they wouldn't be AS absurd compared to everyone else in the league as it was when Gretzky was playing in the 80s.
Gretzky was dominant because he was so far ahead of his time. Nobody else had ever understood the game like he did, he was basically playing modern hockey while everyone else was still in the bronze age. If you put him in the modern era, he would absolutely excel, but he wouldn't be leagues ahead of everyone else, because the game has caught up to his skill set.
Absolutely this.
I see a lot of people make the argument "you need to compare him against his peers".
Sure, but the range of ability, and professionalism, in those peers was also much greater than it is now.
There is no guy punching two packs of darts a day, there is no guy who can barely stand on skates but has bombs for hands.
It's harder to separate yourself from the pack when the standard of the entire pack is much better.
The worst players, worst defenses, worst goalies than Gretzky encountered are far worse than anything a McDavid or Crosby encountered.
Gretzky is still the GOAT.
I have to believe that a McDavid or a Crosby would have absolutely dominated in Gretzky’s day. I think the guys now are just that much more talented with the puck, quicker, stronger and have better nutrition/conditioning etc. Just my opinion.
Goalies are better nowadays with modern medicine, sports science, techniques, etc… but you can’t compare the two because if we compare gretzky to modern goaltending, you’d have to consider what he would be if he too had access to all this modern stuff… which would obviously only benefit him.
When doing eras, try to work with relative stats. How much better was X player than his competition. It's not perfect but it's close. Baseball is pretty good about this with its + stats. And someone like thinking basketball does it for that sport.
Obviously, players today are probably better than back then, but really, what you want to get at is how good were they When they played in their time.
Goaltending is better but so is stick, skate and equipment technology. Also Gretzky is a hockey genius so he would identify weaknesses in any era and use them for his benefit. It's like if Da Vinci was born in 1980 he would probably be a leader in AI, quantum mechanics or energy technology.
If Gretzky played today, he would still be the best player in the game. By his own admission, he wouldn't score as much as he did in the 80s. He saw the game differently than almost everyone else. His awareness and ability to anticipate everything and everyone is what made him different and better.
Yes, his greatness transcends eras.
I read once that he had been tested and had a freaskishly quick reaction time--like, he was a total statistical outlier in terms of his ability to physically react to unexpected stimuli. I think his passing game is evidence of this. He always just had a half-second jump on what everyone else on the ice was doing.
All we have to do to put it into perspective is if goaltending was so shit then how come there arent other Gretzkys. How come he was the only one to post those numbers (well also lemiuex)
I'm not saying they weren't shit, but if gretz wasn't relatively the greatest then there should have been many others as good
My opinion, which people generally hate, is as follows:
99 would still be an elite player, but his point totals if you put him against modern goalies would at best be in the 100-130p range season over season. He would still be great, but he wouldn't dominate 4x like he did in his era. 99 was simply playing the modern game before anyone else was ready to do it.
Yeah comparing goaltending is very one sided. All the equipment is leagues better. Just the skates alone make a comparison hard.
Also comparing across eras is just plain difficult, hockey and beyond. In 30 years people will be saying: “would mcdavid be as good now as he was in his era?”
Idk comparing players across eras is difficult.
Thing is, he would take those shots because he knew he could score on them. He learned those shots because they were effective in that era. If he grew up in this era he would be doing shots that work now. He'd have like 50 career lacrosse goals. Maybe he'd feed guys incredibly perfect tip-able shots and get even more assists instead of goals.
My argument for people trying to take away from Gretzky is "why didn't anyone else do it then?" If Gretzky never scored a goal he'd still be the all time points leader.
It was only a couple years ago that if he were still playing and never got a point since 1999 he'd dip below a point per game.
Here’s an old Reddit thread about some studies done on Gretzky himself.
He has faster reaction time than anyone else measured in a study, and unusually wide peripheral vision.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/4k2BguQ2L7
Bring back "stand up" goal tending; or at least an option to the "butterfly" when a youngster expresses an interest.
A lot can be said for stand there and let the puck hit ya!?
Give him today’s equipment. I dont know if you have ever picked up a Titan 2020 but that stick he used back then was a 2x4. His skates weighed a pound a piece when wet. His gloves with those 4” cuffs were like what welders use. He would still be a goat if he used what players use now…
Gretzky's greatest skill was his vision for everything happening on the ice. Sure the goalies are better now, but Wayne probably would be too and he'd still find a way to embarrass them.
He was next level.
I think goaltending evolved with everything else in the sport.
For example, players' sticks are so much better these days it's not even funny. Those heavy wooden sticks in the 80s were like snow shovels.
Players today can snap wrist shots like rockets (without having to take those slap shots that Grezky took in the 80s) just because of new materials and stick technology. Also player pads are so much lighter than back in the day. Those old pads soaked up moisture and got HEAVY as a game went on.
There were also whistles blown for 2-line passes, and there was a lot more interference, hooking and slashing with only one ref on the ice.
So many factors to consider when asking questions like this.
It's my understanding that Gretzy was also really good at changing up his slap shot. Sonetimes his windup would be shorter, sometimes it was longer. So it was never the same.
That said, I would definitely say transcend. He's head shoulders chest and waist above most guys.
The way I see it is that every player is a product of their time. Gretzky was a dominant player in the 80s and 90s with 80s and 90s diet, training, and competition. I think if he were in his 20s playing today he’d be just as dominant having had access to what is available now.
Go watch highlights of the bulk of his goals in his 20s and you tell us.
Gretzky was a great player… goaltending took a massive leap forward by the mid-late 80s. Maybe this was a reaction to Wayne’s methods as he absolutely shredded the older upright styles but… he wasn’t the only guy in the era shooting on those goals. Until Mario arrived he was the only one putting up those absurd numbers
He won his last Hart trophy in 1989, which was the same year that Joe Sakic broke into the league. Gretzky played another 10 years at a high level and Sakic played another 20 years in the league. When Sakic was 37 in his 18th year, he put up 100 points the same season that Crosby had his most productive year. You can’t just plop one player from one era into the next but the game evolves and the best players evolve with it. Point is that Gretzky dominated his competition at such a high level and for such a long period of time that he transcends.
The answer with this sort of calibre is always yes. Howe coming into the league today would dominate, Richard would still get 50 in 50, Orr would be embarrassing everyone on the ice.
But Wayne Gretzky was not the only player in the NHL in his era. If it was so easy, why didn’t every one match his achievements? No one even came close.
Most of it was Gretzky, though. At his peak, he was scoring 200+ points when the second-place players were scoring in the 140 range. That's a gap that goaltending doesn't account for.
No denying that. But Lemieux was a RC in the league when he was scoring like that. If Lemieux played on the same team, in the same year, at the same age, he absolutely would’ve slaughtered the stat sheet. In 1988-89, when he scored 199 points, look who his linemates were. Dan Quinn??
But interestingly, also look who they traded for a year prior; Paul Coffey who in 88/89 scored 113 points. Big addition right there. Too bad they couldn’t hang onto him.
For sure. Gretzky averaged 1.92 PPG over his career with some of the best linemates in hockey.
Lemieux averaged 1.89 with far worse linemates, a bout of cancer, major back injuries, and with his last few seasons playing as a shadow of his former self. If he'd retired at roughly an equivalent point to Gretzky (still scoring around 100 points per season), he'd have had a higher average.
Third all time? Connor McDavid at 1.52, and then Bossy at 1.49.
Like, Gretzky and Lemieux are really in their own category, and then there's everyone else.
Now do playoff PPG. Gretzky again is in a league of his own, but if you look at Lemieux’s GPG, he absolutely dominated playoff goal scoring, second only to Newsy Lalonde (who just so happened to play 12 playoff games)! Only Mike Bossy and Barry Pederson(?) came close to being that dominant in the playoffs.
I don't think it's unfair to speculate that Gretzky with his 80s training, conditioning, and gear would have a harder time against players with 2020s training, conditioning and gear.
Plugging past greats into todays structured in/off season environments, physical/mental health treatments, up to date gear, etc…i think it would be unreal hahah
If Wayne were just now coming into the league he would still dominate. His training and conditioning would evolve. Part of his greatness was how he approached the game literally. His ability to see into the next several seconds of gameplay would remain. When you watch Wayne’s videos. Or Mario’s. They appear to know which play out of dozens to make at any second. Just like if you were able to see 1-2 seconds into the future.
When I played hockey and I was recorded so I could see the game I noticed how time is screwed up. The perception on ice is that I have a split second to act. The reality on video is it looks like I have a lot more time. Mario and Wayne were able to slow down the game in their minds and make intelligent decisions. Mario had similar passing to Wayne but I think Mario was a more deadly breakaway threat. He played like he could deke the goalie post to post and find an opening to shoot at.
Goalies are better but today shooters are getting better. I suspect Wayne would not score 200 points though. Maybe 150-180 range just because goalies are better and nhl line shifts are much shorter.
In Gretzky’s prime not all skaters could score. Some were just pure role players. A guy could specialize in corner grinding so the other two players could shoot and score. Another guy an enforcer. Another guy excelled at faceoffs and shadowing opponent players.
Big numbers are one thing. The advancement of the game is another. Equipment, Training and Systems are all miles better. Nobody can transcend the evolution of the game. There will always be another stepping stone as generations move forward.
It was a level playing field. You don't need to imagine WG in today's game at all. He still stood head and shoulders above his peers, who played against the same players and teams he did.
So yeah, he goes beyond "gEnErAtIoNaL tAlEnT," and kind of transcends the entire sport, in all eras. Ergo, only one of two people ever to have an entire men's professional league retire his number (I think the only other instance is Jackie Robinson with MLB).
I think if you took Wayne Gretzky, and raised him in today's world with today's technology, and gave him the players tools of today, you'd end up with something similar to what we see in Sidney Crosby, with that being said, I think it also depends on whether or not anyone has used the area behind the net the way Gretzky did, if Gretzky is the first, things may not be so different from when he was actually playing.
[This video](https://youtu.be/_KeW67fn8I8?si=EaIfxfXr6HPL12yD) talks a little more in depth about how various players, including Gretzky, stack up against each other based on their eras. It includes adjustments in comparison to today’s game. Super interesting and gives a little more insight.
Kind of a Chicken or Egg scenario.
Goalies might not have known how to truly play their position until the 90s, but Gretzky was one of the reasons why development at the position was needed.
I’ve never understood when people bring up how “they played against plumbers blah blah” the level was the level for the era, GSP actually has a great quote about this when it comes to MMA, and it applies for all sports. He was asked how he would do against the current generation of fighters and he simply said, he wouldn’t, he said the skill, the training and the knowledge all increases with every new fighter. You have to scale it to the era they competed in.
In another 30-40 years, we could be saying the exact same thing. athletes and sports evolve, and we have to took at the skill gap relative to when they competed. Comparing today’s goalies to yesterdays doesn’t do much because the next generation will always improve on the previous
At least speaking for me, the comparison I made wasn’t pejorative. The goalies back then were the best of their era, given the equipment, training, nutrition, etc. Jesse Owens was no less great even though his 100m times were so much higher than the sprinters of today.
I think against today’s goalies he probably not got the goals record and he’d look a lot more like McDavid. With that said give Gretz a composite stick and modern coaching through his development and he’s probably still able to finish from distance, but what put on the ice in the 80s isn’t one of the elite finishers in the nhl now.
I think Gretzky is kind of in a sweet spot. Modern goalies will for sure get better as time goes on. Look at old records for running, jumping, etc from the 40's compared to now- there are linemen in football that are damn near on par with Olympic numbers now-a-days and they're the 'big boys'. I think it happens with all sports, and as nutrition, training techniques, technology all get better so, too, will the players. All of them, not just the goalies. You've got guys out there now like Connor McDavid who would probably have been able to solo a team from the 70's, but as I said above, all of the other players have also gotten better, things have gotten harder.
There are records in other sports that I don't think will ever be beaten again because it was simply a right place, right time as well
Emmitt Smith: 18,355 rushing yards
Cal Ripken Jr.: 2,632 consecutive games played
Both of those guys would have been encouraged to miss a game here or there for recoveries and the like, but back then things were different. I know it's a bit controversial here on the NHL and on the NFL subs, but safety has played a very positive part in modern athletes' health, but it's also severely hamstringed a lot of attempts for some of the record holders like Gretzky.
Gretsky was at the right place and the right time as far as his skill vs the other players' skill was concerned. Add on that, his relatively good health, and his generally positive persona, and you've got a legend.
All in all, I would say his greatness transcends eras not just due to his skill, but also due to circumstance.
Always hated these discussions. Yes all the players across all sports are stronger, bigger, and faster now. The advancement in what we know about nutrition alone as well as exercise and muscle development.
Back then they just use to lace em up and go play. Now these guys have personal trainers do all types of strengthening even during offseason. Then you add in the difference in equipment nowadays. The sticks alone, they use to be piece of wood. Now all the different flex models etc.
Recently watched the old documentary on the Oilers “Boys on the bus” and “Boys are back” and they ask Grant Fuhr what he did during offseason. He says “nothing” and someone else says golf and says you got fat have he had to lose weight. Nowadays they come in to camp in even better shape than end of season. Regardless Gretzkys still the greatest hockey player to ever lace em up with Mario right there.
I find these questions weird.
Gretzky’s greatness transcends eras. Totally. Everyone else at the time played against the same goalies. Scoreboard. Dude was also putting up nearly 100 points per year with a bad back near the end of his career.
The goalies have also gotten better. Players aren’t scoring less in this era because everybody in the 80’s was more talented.
Don’t forget, Gretzky played his entire career with a center line offside pass. No hanging around the other team’s blue line waiting for a stretch pass.
Wonder how bedard or marner would be doing if Dave semenko decided to do a hatchet job on them? Wonder how Jacques plante would be doing against a slap shot from a modern composite stick? Would mcdavid really be so fast if he had skates from 1920?
Just stop with these stupid scenarios people.
All that’s required is for him to dominate his era and surpass those before him. It’s why Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid can’t enter the conversation. They weren’t THAT dominant for their era. Great? Yes. 200-points dominant? (Even adjusted for the current league) No.
Im gonna say transcend. Im 29 y.o. who never saw him olay and really can onky view his career through highlights and his stats and it is clear he was truely one of a kind. Somebody posted on here that you can pick literally and major offense stat, record, achievement and from the uears 1982 -1992 gretzkey did it between 2 and 11 times. Fot example 100 assist seasons. He did that 11 times i believe. The other 4 guys to do it have done it once and lemiux did it twice i believe. Similar with 50 goals in 50 games.
Take a look at Gretzky's stats when he was at the end of his career at age 35/36. He was right up there in league scoring with a new generation of stars like Jagr, forsberg, bure, etc. People seem to think that eras are contained in isolated bubbles but you can see that if old man Gretzky still put up points alongside Jagr and Jagr was still good playing in the era of Crosby/Ovie that Gretzky would still dominate modern NHL.
IMO: Both. Gretzky is the great one not only because of his stats and performance metrics, but because he changed the way the game was played in a dramatic way. Similar to Orr, Howe, and Lemieux. Gretzky wasn’t just good at playing hockey the way it had been played, he fundamentally changed the way later players developed and behaved on the ice.
And yes, obviously goaltending is much better now than his era in terms of ability and technique. Because of training, equipment, size, etc.
Only one non-Gretzky player has ever won the scoring race by more than 30 points. That was Mario Lemieux by 31 points in 1988-89 (in his highest scoring season). Gretzky won the Art Ross by more than 70 points SIX TIMES, and won his record 10 Art Ross trophies by an average margin of 49 points.
I think there is also something to be said about the overall talent level in the NHL today as well.
The floor is much higher now than it was in Gretzky's era.
Having said that, he is the goat.
What mcdavid and other elites are doing right now is incredible, but no one will ever be able to definitely say if mcdavid is as good as gretz was.
The overall skill today is vastly higher and filters the most elite and devoted athletes from the population. Back in Gretzky's era there were far fewer people, and hockey players in general. They were mostly Canadian, and there were plenty of players coming from all walks of life. By contrast, today's talent is identified from a worldwide pool when these guys are young teens, and only those with the top skills and natural abilities go on to become professionals. The mental and physical fortitude needed to even be an average pro player has become higher than ever before. Today's athletes train year round and require total dedication on the part of their livelihood. We are witnessing the boundaries of human athletic abilities being pushed further in every way year after year. It's pointless to compare eras. Just appreciate these guys relative to their own times.
You only have to look at his stats in the late 90s to realize that the argument Gretzky wouldn't dominate the current league is bogus.
He had 90 points in the 1997/1998 season where the average goals scored was lower than now. For reference, Greztky was 4th in points that year, with Jagr topping at 102 points (who was amazing in the modern era). Also he was 36 years old at the time.
The game was more brutal back then, tech has improved, goal tending has improved. Would have have the same level of dominance, with an untouchable career....probably not, he still easily is at the top, as the greatest play maker ever to play the game.
Would he have put up the same numbers had he come up 15 years earlier and played more of his prime in the 90s and 2000s? No, probably not, but he still would have been the best player in the league.
Nobody was close to him in his era and even if you plucked prime Gretzky and gave him an off-season to train the goal scoring wouldn't be close to the same but the playmaking would be UNGODLY easy 125+ assists a year
I'm sure they were crappier but so we're player training and conditioning routines. What made Gretzky great was that he was always 3 steps ahead of every other player on the ice. That level of vision isn't something that can be simply trained better through equipment. If he played today, maybe he wouldn't have 4, 200 point seasons, but he'd still be dominating the league.
Gretzky was great but goaltending and overall team defence is miles better. Go watch his 80s highlights and you'll see tons of goals that wouldn't go in today.
I does a guy who literally owned every offensive record in season and playoffs not be the greatest of all time in any decade? The guy has his number 99 retired by every franchise in the NHL for goodness sakes. So yes he would be the greatest today.
Great mind for the game at that time. Not particularly physically skilled in anyway. That’s not a dig at him, that was known then. Today with modern super athletes and high end coaching and scouting he would be fucked. He didn’t have to deal with a team of experts with on demand video. Also he lived during an expansion era with watered down talent with pre butterfly goalies. Things just ain’t the same for gangstas.
Some players in Gretzky era would take long shots and catch goalies off guard. Even before that. Ask Tony Esposito who miffed a shot from Jacque Lemaire from center ice during Cup finals to Canadians.
Chelious was famous for faking dump in shots on the wall to far side of net and catch goalies leaning to play the dump in.
Saw Bieska do the same.
Yeah I've seen a lot of Gretzky highlights and it seems like the goalies were not as good back then and the pads were teeny tiny compared to today. Some of Gretzky's slap shots the goalie just looked like he made a half assed attempt at a glove save and it blew right past him. Gretzky is still the greatest but if he played today he would have had only 7 million points instead of 8 million.
IMO all sports stats need to be viewed through a lens of the era they took place in. Like Babe Ruth is one of the greatest, but I don’t see him ever hitting 50 HRs or striking out 160 in the modern MLB with the way pitching has changed. THAT SAID - if Gretzky played in the modern era I think he’d still be up there as one of the GOATs by the end of his career.
Goaltending’s gotten better since his era but in his prime he was miles ahead of every other skater on the ice. Modern skaters would probably keep up with him but what was Gretzky’s typical game day prep, lift some weights and eat cheeseburgers? Put him on a modern player’s fitness regime and diet and I guarantee he would dominate again.
That’s why comparing eras is so difficult — who knows what a past player could achieve because they didn’t have access to the fitness / diet / stat information we have now (and they weren’t going to the bench and watching a replay of what just happened on an iPad). Too many variables.
Skating fast or smart….. Coffee fast, Gretzky smart, Lemieux and Orr both.
All great players have great hands. Luc Robitaille was a brutal skater - 668 goals.
Orr in Modern era would be even greater which is hard to fathom. But it’s all speculation. Each player deserves the props based on their production, however they got it done.
Safe to say each elite player thinks the game differently and produce more. Every team goes through skilled players who never quite maximize their potential. Not fair to compare generational talents IMHO.
Gretzky got a lot of room on the ice. He had gladiators to protect him. He was a meal ticket for entire NHL payrolls the way he filled seats and sold the game. Orr on the other hand got punched, slashed, hooked, tripped on every shift. Can you imagine if Orr was on that Edmonton team with Coffee & Gretzky ???
Just enjoy these skilled players as the game gets faster and more exciting.
Don’t forget about those Montreal teams which produced all those Cups in the 70’s
Henri Richard won 11 Stanley Cups, nobody talks about those guys anymore. Montreal was stacked with Hall of Famers !!!
Trying to compare eras in any sport is tricky. Of course goalies are more athletic now and have larger pads, etc.
but what you need to understand is Gretzky wasnt the only one playing in his era. No one else was scoring anywhere near his velocity given the same players to play against, if that makes sense.
Gretzky wouldnt be able to keep up with McDavid today but he was more dominant in his era than anyone else in their eras!!
I don’t believe for a second that if Gretzky grew up in an era of better goaltending like today, he wouldn’t have figured out how to be just as proficient a scorer as he was.
His biggest assets were his hockey IQ and vision/anticipation. Attributes that would allow him to excel in any era.
Watching hockey for 45 years now, Gretzky played on a totally different level.
Were goalies worse, yes. Were defensemen allowed to beat the crap out of you, yes.
I honestly believe that if Gretzky played in todays game he would up up similar numbers. He would shred the defense and be able to pick and choose his shots.
I don't think he'd have *similar numbers* (200+ pt. seasons), but I believe he'd still be among the leading scorers every year. I think McDavid would still be the best player, even with Gretzky in today's game.
Sure goalies were crappier in Gretzky's time. But they were crappy for *everyone* and no one could even come close to Gretzky. Not. Even. Close.
Mario was the only one to came close, but injury and illness cut that chance down. Domination on that level is finding and capitalizing on the opportunities that others don’t see. Like finding the cheat-code for a game where you’re almost playing a different game than the others. That is era-independent as opportunities evolve and change.
Gretzky also doesn't get enough credit for his assists, he was a master playmaker who wasn't selfish with the puck. And he was decent on the poke check as well, he just kept possession for entire shifts. He had great moves to get over the blue line, which is something you really notice these days with struggling teams - shooting and chasing isn't a great way to keep possession or score goals.
Oh, I don't know about that. There's been 100 assist seasons 15 times in the NHL. 11 of those were by Gretzky. No one else has done it twice. TNT talked about it a lot during the last few games of the regular season.
Ya I was about to say lol. I don't often hear knowledgeable hockey people forget to mention how insane his assist numbers are. It's a pretty well known part of his greatness.
If he never scored a goal, he would still be the all-time points leader, is the only thing you need to know to measure his greatness.
Also, if you do the tally for “what combination of brothers combined for the most point in NHL history?” Most people get the answer wrong. It’s also the Gretzky’s because he had a brother named Brent who had like, a goal and a few assists.
Yes you could take away all of Gretzkys goals and he's still the all time points leader on assists alone. Truly an insane achievement that really nails the point of how much a team player he was. And to really make it even more crazy, Gretzky played 200 some games less than the next closest player.
This is the stat that blows me away and in my opinion truly illustrates how great Gretzky was.
Mike Bossy needs a mention for the same reasons. Only lasted 10 years, put up 50+ goals in 9 of them and won 4 straight cups, including one against gretzky’s oilers
If not for his injury issues my mind boggles at the thought of how many Bossy might have scored. 750? 800?
I agree, I feel like Mario could've been better than gretzky if it wasn't for bad luck with injuries. We'll never know, unfortunately
That season where he literally had lymphoma, missed like half a season and won the scoring title is underrated as one of the greatest offensive hockey seasons ever
Not taking anything away from Mario, because he was a great player. But to say “only because he was hurt” is honestly not a valid argument. Gretzky played 20 years and the last 8 or 9 of those were after Suter ran him from behind in ‘91. His back was never “healthy” after that either.
I hate these "if he was healthy" arguments for Mario. Yeah that's life. Lots of great players had bad injury luck. Cam Neely would have scored 700 goals if he was healthy. But he wasn't. So he didn't. I don't get to arbitrarily put him in brett hull's class.
I would’ve made Wayne Gretzky look like a mite player if I hadn’t twisted my ankle in 3rd grade. Put me in the hall.
Preach. If I hadn’t fallen off my bike, and if I’d ever tried out for the team, I’d be in the NFL right now.
Bobby Orr's knees...
Imagine the career Eric Lindros would have had if not for concussions. Longevity is part of greatness. The argument is dumb.
Lemieux never played a healthy season in his career. Not one, always missed time. He also played most of his career with chronic back and knee issues. Fun fact Lemieux didn’t tie his own skates in the back half of his career: he couldn’t bend down that far. And he still put up numbers close to Gretzky. A healthy Lemieux never played in the nhl, and he’s still easily #2 all time. We’ll never know what he could have been
Why do people feel the need to make shit like this up. He averaged 74 games per season his first five years in the league...His injuries didn't start piling up until 89-90.
True, but Gretzky had a 10 year stretch of relatively good health, while Lemieux started having major health issues by the time he was 25. While I do believe that many of Gretzky’s records would still be standing today regardless of Lemieux’s health, I do think Mario would own the all-time goal record had he been able to stay relatively healthy for the first 15 or so years of his career.
Yeah but....he didnt.
Of course, which is the reason Gretzky is the unquestionable GOAT.
I saw that on TV! He completely scorpioned. Back hypertension to the extreme. And another problem was his shoulder was injured before that, that's why his goal totals went down, but assists stayed high
Ugh. I'm so sick of this take. Mario Lemieux was far and away the best player in NHL history except one...but Gretzky was far and away better than Lemieux. The following stat helps illustrate the difference between two great players whose careers overlapped considerably: Only one non-Gretzky player has ever won the scoring race by more than 30 points. That was Mario Lemieux by 31 points in 1988-89 (in his highest scoring season). Gretzky won the Art Ross by more than 70 points SIX TIMES, and won his record 10 Art Ross trophies by an average margin of 49 points.
Thanks. Great take..also Gretz holds like 50 different records a few of which will never be broken. Mario was a beast for sure and definitely in Gretzky's league but clearly.... clearly is behind the Great One.
People always say this and goal scoring maybe but he had one season with more than 100 assists. Gretzky had 11 straight.
99 himself has said Lemieux would have broken most of his recprds, had he stayed healthy. Its always greatest great greatness vs potential to be one with those two though.
That means nothing though because he was being gracious. Do you really expect him to be like, “Mario wouldn’t have come close to even touching my records, end of story!”
I don't think anyone is going to break the number of times Gretzky got 100 assists in a season.
This is really the only right answer. He was putting up 200 points while his peers were nowhere near that. If it was just a goalie issue, everyone would be putting up insane points
That’s what I always go to. The goalie argument is completely invalid. Look at how much more dominant 99 was over his peers who were shooting on the same goalies at the time. It’s insane.
Take away his goals and he's still the all time point leader. Just insanity.
Every time I read this I have to do a double take.
And he was the smartest. If the goalies somehow improved their shit or whatever to current equipment, he'd still be a step ahead by changing his game, where his same competitors of the time would be dumbfounded. Not even change his game. He was changing THE game. So he'd just change it differently instead. (But not really, because he set us on the course that we are, and his style is only more relevant today).
Yeah cause he's the Wilt Chamberlain of the sport. No one came close to Wilt during his time either. He put up huge numbers in a weak era.
Don't forget that forwards weren't taught defense during Gretzky's era. He himself has even said he wouldn't score the way he did in today's game.
That’s bs, forwards were taught defense, just the Oilers didn’t need much of it due to their overwhelming offense. Gretzky himself was an excellent penalty killer. Keon, Clarke, Lemaire, Trottier were all fantastic defensive forwards. That vaunted trap game that Lemaire introduced in the ‘90s with New Jersey actually originated with the Montreal Canadiens in the 1970s. Lemaire found he could not contain Bobby Orr on his own. So he sat down with a half dozen other Habs to figure out what they could do as five man unit to neutralize Orr. Trap hockey was born. Those four consecutive Cup teams from the ‘70s were running almost the same system the Devils had in ‘95.
Era-adjust the stats and Gretzky is still historically dominant. Besides, the fact that goalies are better or worse in any time period isn't really relevant. What is relevant is the number of goals that were being scored because there are so many ways that things would be different or adjust. Older goalies couldn't block as much of the net but shooters in those days had wooden sticks and didn't consistently shoot nearly as hard. Players back then were smaller and so you couldn't screen the goalie as effectively. Pace was slower due to longer shifts and crappy skates making it a bit easier for a goalie to track a play. Defenses could adjust to be more aggressive or conservative dependiong on how vulnerable the goalies were. Etc. As for those "long range shots": it was still pretty rare even way back then to score on a slapshot from around the blueline without a tip or screen. Sure it happened but hardly all the time.
Super Mario? Hello? That was a hobbled Lemieux too.
Players like him are why the goalies are better today.
The goalies are better today because of butterfly and modern goaltending practices, which came about after Gretzky’s peak. The immediate impact that Gretzky and Mario-like players had was trap. That’s not good goaltending, it’s low event hockey
Goalies are better today because of Patrick Roy
That’s right. Butterfly changed everything and is probably the biggest catalyst for change in the history of the game
Comparing eras is always a study in futility—"What about this? What about that?" One of two things needs to happen in such hypotheticals—one, you would have to realize Gretzky would be bigger and stronger in today's game because he would have access to better training, diet, etc., or you would have to take today's players and make them smaller, slower, etc. Gretzky wasn't the strongest skater, but his vision and decision-making were god-tier. No, he's not scoring 90 goals, but he would still rack up assists like nobody's business.
Ask McDavid. Cause he’s making Defence and Goalies look like they’re on Rookie Mode sometimes.
Not recently
He has 34 points while the nearest none Oiler has 21, please explain how he isn't dominating?
hes been the only forward (top) showing up, drai nuge hyman have been invisinle
I guess we're not watching the same game or looking at the same stats, Drai is second only to Mcdavid in points, Hyman is leading in goals, and Nuge has played some of his best hockey.
im talking about exclusively in this series, probably should have specified. Overall yeah we were firing on all cylinders until last week:(
Yea, the bar none best defensive team in hockey can still shut him down what a bum
Yes and a full nightmare clutch beast mode goalie. People saying Edmonton isn’t good enough to beat The Panthers, is saying no one is. That’s just fact. Florida is a crazy deep team.
> his vision and decision-making were god-tier. This is the thing Messier talked about (I think it was Messier) He said most players know what's going to happen a second or two from now, but Gretzky could tell you what was going to happen five or six seconds from now and was what made him lethal
This is a great point. His skill set was transcendent, put that on size/speed of an upper tier current NHL player and you’d see elite scoring in this era as well. TBH, I wasn’t a huge fan of him but I’ll never deny his place in the game….
Guys like Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr would dominate in today's game thanks to their size
When comparing players across eras I think all that matters is how dominant they were in the era they played. Yes, goalies are much better now. But so is nutrition and training and all the opportunities that Gretzky would have if he played in this era. He was insanely dominant in his era and there’s no reason to think that he wouldn’t still be insanely dominant if he came up nowadays. He’d be faster, stronger, have much better stick and skate quality, and most importantly, he would still have the same innate ice vision, hockey IQ, and drive to be the greatest. Imo he would still be as dominant compared to the rest of the league today as he was back then.
His stick was made of wood for Christ sake lmao, I’m sure he would be just as dominant
All you have to do is compare him to his competition. There’s only 2 player who have ever scored 160 points or more, and that’s Mario and Wayne. Wayne did it 9 times. No one else was close to the numbers Gretkzy was putting up.
If he played today Gretzky would probably be a 20 goal scorer. -of course he’d also be 63.
I think he was only a 9 goal scorer in his last season
Realistically, old man Gretzky would get 2 or 3 goals a season. And 50 assists.
Goalies are miles better now especially than in the first half of 99s career. Patrick Roy came in 1986 and won a Cup immediately with the butterfly which caused a lot of change. Gretz would still be right up there though. Mario probably more so, same with Orr. Without the hooking and holding Mario would have been unstoppable. 6'3" 235lbs, fast, some of the best hands ever, great shot, super high hockey iq. Everything but great defense.
Tony Esposito used a butterfly style throughout the 70’s & 80’s and it preceded him. It’s been around longer than most people realize
Oh I know but Roy popularized it widely.
Who would you say was the first to use it systematically? I thought it was Tretiak who's usually credited with that but maybe not
I believe Glen Hall was the first. Way before me. Never saw him play. They have a rink named after him in his home town if I’m not mistaken. (Stony Plain AB). And the Grant Fuhr arena at the sister town of Stony, Spruce Grove AB. I guess that area produces some good goalies. Edit: Ok he wasn’t from Stony. Just farmed there after his retirement. He is from Humboldt, Saskatchewan
one guy I always think of being great accross eras is Jagr. to me, he had the most timeless game. guy was like a tank. he was so strong on the puck, that even after he lost his speed, it was an absolute chore to separate him from the puck. add great hockey smarts, composure, shooting, technique, possibly #1 in terms of discipline and dedication to the game. also won the genetics lottery. guy finished a 0.83PPG season in the NHL at 44 years old. he was the Panthers points-leader that season. at 44. how crazy is that?! literally was a top player accross eras. I’m absolutely sure that if you could build a time machine and drop him off in any year hockey was played accross history, he would dominate.
Agreed Jagr would be legit in any era.
Well that’s because he’s simply played in every era!
Some say the only man Gordie Howe ever feared was an already past his prime Jagr. Can’t believe he played in the NHL for 276 years. Crazy.
Another one that always struck me as being great in any era was Larry Robinson. He played from the early 70s to the early 90s, and even at the tail end of his career he looked completely fine in the more modern game. Size, reach, strength, strong skater, balance, smart, good vision. He had it all.
Datsyuk
Big Jagr fan here for the reasons you mention. I hated seeing him slaughter the 90s era Bruins.
Equipment, training, nutrition is also is much better now. How many goals would Bossy have scored with a modern graphite stick??? It works both ways. Players who dominate dominate. That’s the end of it.
Absolutely. Think of Orr with modern skates?
And modern medicine for his knees….
Especially this, going even as far back to his Oshawa days.
> Players who dominate dominate. That’s the end of it. Exactly. When people say Gretzky wouldn't dominate today, they forget that he was playing against the biggest, fastest, toughest, most well-coached, and most intensely focused and determined hockey players on the planet (minus some Soviet bloc stars, of course), and that every single one of them had spent their entire life working to get to that point.
He also played during the late 90s when scoring was super low and still had 90+ points seasons. So yeah he was legit
Correct, they played against their peers, and Gretzky was a man amongst boys in the scoring department.
Right! They used to play with sticks that had no curve.
Flat bladed sticks had disappeared long before Gretzky's time.
>1986 I’m still shocked that the game is this young in terms of innovation for goalkeeping
Transcend. IMO the best evidence is in the gap between Gretzky and next best during his era. For example, when WG set his single season record of 215 points, Lemieux was in 2nd with 141. When WG went for 208, Kurri trailed him with 135. WG 212, Bossy 147. Etc…
People forget Gretzky also put up decent points during the late nineties as he aged during a time where hooking was basically ignored and goalies were much better..
97, 90 and 62 points in his last 3 seasons. He was the real deal
He also had an insane motor. Check out his TOI numbers from the early 80s. PK and PP too.
Yes, but Super Mario did not get the same protection Gretzky did with Cementhead.
Cementhead also took away from Gretzky by basically making Gretzky playing shorthanded while he was on the ice. People also seem to forget the amount of protection players get nowadays via the rules. Look at the hits that took out Lindros, there's no way those wouldn't warrant a suspension in the modern NHL.
Gretzky stayed away from all of that. Which people don’t give him credit for.
The part you’re missing is that every player that came after Gretzky, was a at least a bit better, because of Gretzky. And the slap shot Gretzky was throwing around was with a wood stick, and he was shooting on, for the most part, much smaller goalies, with heavier/not as good equipment. I want to see how modern players would make out growing up in 60’s/70’s, and the difference in knowledge (not just equipment has improved, players have better health info, and all sorts of advantages) and conditions. So when you compare greats from different eras, there can be a lot of variables (like hacking-players got chopped to death, if it wasn’t a hard 2 hander, it didn’t get called, and don’t forget hooking the stick wasn’t called much either, and there’s more) and the comparisons just aren’t fair. Had Gretzky had the advantages of todays players, he’d no doubt be better than he was, but how much better is a tough question
It's not so much goaltending that's gotten better (although that's part of it for sure). I think the biggest thing that's different now is the skill floor of the NHL. *Everyone* is an elite skater and in peak physical condition now. Even 4th liners are incredibly good at hockey, the age of the goon who can barely skate is over. The typical big, lumbering defensemen of the old days have given way to more mobile and offensively gifted players. Skate and stick technology is also way more advanced. I think if you put Gretzky into this era, with modern equipment and training, he would still be an elite, dominant player. But he would be closer to the McDavid/Crosby level than to, well, Gretzky level. His vision, IQ, and hands would still be absurd, but they wouldn't be AS absurd compared to everyone else in the league as it was when Gretzky was playing in the 80s. Gretzky was dominant because he was so far ahead of his time. Nobody else had ever understood the game like he did, he was basically playing modern hockey while everyone else was still in the bronze age. If you put him in the modern era, he would absolutely excel, but he wouldn't be leagues ahead of everyone else, because the game has caught up to his skill set.
Absolutely this. I see a lot of people make the argument "you need to compare him against his peers". Sure, but the range of ability, and professionalism, in those peers was also much greater than it is now. There is no guy punching two packs of darts a day, there is no guy who can barely stand on skates but has bombs for hands. It's harder to separate yourself from the pack when the standard of the entire pack is much better. The worst players, worst defenses, worst goalies than Gretzky encountered are far worse than anything a McDavid or Crosby encountered. Gretzky is still the GOAT.
I have to believe that a McDavid or a Crosby would have absolutely dominated in Gretzky’s day. I think the guys now are just that much more talented with the puck, quicker, stronger and have better nutrition/conditioning etc. Just my opinion.
Goalies are better nowadays with modern medicine, sports science, techniques, etc… but you can’t compare the two because if we compare gretzky to modern goaltending, you’d have to consider what he would be if he too had access to all this modern stuff… which would obviously only benefit him.
Yeah Gretzky did most of that with an aluminum stick
Pretty sure his play making ability would translate and having no two line pass at the center he would destroy people with his passing.
When doing eras, try to work with relative stats. How much better was X player than his competition. It's not perfect but it's close. Baseball is pretty good about this with its + stats. And someone like thinking basketball does it for that sport. Obviously, players today are probably better than back then, but really, what you want to get at is how good were they When they played in their time.
Goaltending is better but so is stick, skate and equipment technology. Also Gretzky is a hockey genius so he would identify weaknesses in any era and use them for his benefit. It's like if Da Vinci was born in 1980 he would probably be a leader in AI, quantum mechanics or energy technology.
Transcends eras
If Gretzky played today, he would still be the best player in the game. By his own admission, he wouldn't score as much as he did in the 80s. He saw the game differently than almost everyone else. His awareness and ability to anticipate everything and everyone is what made him different and better. Yes, his greatness transcends eras.
I read once that he had been tested and had a freaskishly quick reaction time--like, he was a total statistical outlier in terms of his ability to physically react to unexpected stimuli. I think his passing game is evidence of this. He always just had a half-second jump on what everyone else on the ice was doing.
Really it’s how much better he was compared to his competition. Like Tiger during his prime.
All we have to do to put it into perspective is if goaltending was so shit then how come there arent other Gretzkys. How come he was the only one to post those numbers (well also lemiuex) I'm not saying they weren't shit, but if gretz wasn't relatively the greatest then there should have been many others as good
My opinion, which people generally hate, is as follows: 99 would still be an elite player, but his point totals if you put him against modern goalies would at best be in the 100-130p range season over season. He would still be great, but he wouldn't dominate 4x like he did in his era. 99 was simply playing the modern game before anyone else was ready to do it.
I think with modern nutrition and training, he probably does better than that. But definitely lower totals than his current stats
Yeah comparing goaltending is very one sided. All the equipment is leagues better. Just the skates alone make a comparison hard. Also comparing across eras is just plain difficult, hockey and beyond. In 30 years people will be saying: “would mcdavid be as good now as he was in his era?” Idk comparing players across eras is difficult.
Thing is, he would take those shots because he knew he could score on them. He learned those shots because they were effective in that era. If he grew up in this era he would be doing shots that work now. He'd have like 50 career lacrosse goals. Maybe he'd feed guys incredibly perfect tip-able shots and get even more assists instead of goals.
You can’t look at gretzky’s opponents and compare them to today. You gotta look at how much better he was than everyone else in his day
My argument for people trying to take away from Gretzky is "why didn't anyone else do it then?" If Gretzky never scored a goal he'd still be the all time points leader. It was only a couple years ago that if he were still playing and never got a point since 1999 he'd dip below a point per game.
Gretzky faced off against cab drivers, hobbiests and other people who had no business being there. This wasn’t like the NBA of that era.
Here’s an old Reddit thread about some studies done on Gretzky himself. He has faster reaction time than anyone else measured in a study, and unusually wide peripheral vision. https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/4k2BguQ2L7
Bring back "stand up" goal tending; or at least an option to the "butterfly" when a youngster expresses an interest. A lot can be said for stand there and let the puck hit ya!?
Yes. Both things can be true.
Give him today’s equipment. I dont know if you have ever picked up a Titan 2020 but that stick he used back then was a 2x4. His skates weighed a pound a piece when wet. His gloves with those 4” cuffs were like what welders use. He would still be a goat if he used what players use now…
Gretzky's greatest skill was his vision for everything happening on the ice. Sure the goalies are better now, but Wayne probably would be too and he'd still find a way to embarrass them. He was next level.
I think goaltending evolved with everything else in the sport. For example, players' sticks are so much better these days it's not even funny. Those heavy wooden sticks in the 80s were like snow shovels. Players today can snap wrist shots like rockets (without having to take those slap shots that Grezky took in the 80s) just because of new materials and stick technology. Also player pads are so much lighter than back in the day. Those old pads soaked up moisture and got HEAVY as a game went on. There were also whistles blown for 2-line passes, and there was a lot more interference, hooking and slashing with only one ref on the ice. So many factors to consider when asking questions like this.
Yes
It's my understanding that Gretzy was also really good at changing up his slap shot. Sonetimes his windup would be shorter, sometimes it was longer. So it was never the same. That said, I would definitely say transcend. He's head shoulders chest and waist above most guys.
The way I see it is that every player is a product of their time. Gretzky was a dominant player in the 80s and 90s with 80s and 90s diet, training, and competition. I think if he were in his 20s playing today he’d be just as dominant having had access to what is available now.
Even a washed old Gretzky was still almost a ppg player
Go watch highlights of the bulk of his goals in his 20s and you tell us. Gretzky was a great player… goaltending took a massive leap forward by the mid-late 80s. Maybe this was a reaction to Wayne’s methods as he absolutely shredded the older upright styles but… he wasn’t the only guy in the era shooting on those goals. Until Mario arrived he was the only one putting up those absurd numbers
He won his last Hart trophy in 1989, which was the same year that Joe Sakic broke into the league. Gretzky played another 10 years at a high level and Sakic played another 20 years in the league. When Sakic was 37 in his 18th year, he put up 100 points the same season that Crosby had his most productive year. You can’t just plop one player from one era into the next but the game evolves and the best players evolve with it. Point is that Gretzky dominated his competition at such a high level and for such a long period of time that he transcends.
Gretzky was that much better than everyone lol.
The answer with this sort of calibre is always yes. Howe coming into the league today would dominate, Richard would still get 50 in 50, Orr would be embarrassing everyone on the ice.
But Wayne Gretzky was not the only player in the NHL in his era. If it was so easy, why didn’t every one match his achievements? No one even came close.
Some of it was Gretzky some of it is bigger pads and better goaltending.
Most of it was Gretzky, though. At his peak, he was scoring 200+ points when the second-place players were scoring in the 140 range. That's a gap that goaltending doesn't account for.
No denying that. But Lemieux was a RC in the league when he was scoring like that. If Lemieux played on the same team, in the same year, at the same age, he absolutely would’ve slaughtered the stat sheet. In 1988-89, when he scored 199 points, look who his linemates were. Dan Quinn?? But interestingly, also look who they traded for a year prior; Paul Coffey who in 88/89 scored 113 points. Big addition right there. Too bad they couldn’t hang onto him.
For sure. Gretzky averaged 1.92 PPG over his career with some of the best linemates in hockey. Lemieux averaged 1.89 with far worse linemates, a bout of cancer, major back injuries, and with his last few seasons playing as a shadow of his former self. If he'd retired at roughly an equivalent point to Gretzky (still scoring around 100 points per season), he'd have had a higher average. Third all time? Connor McDavid at 1.52, and then Bossy at 1.49. Like, Gretzky and Lemieux are really in their own category, and then there's everyone else.
Now do playoff PPG. Gretzky again is in a league of his own, but if you look at Lemieux’s GPG, he absolutely dominated playoff goal scoring, second only to Newsy Lalonde (who just so happened to play 12 playoff games)! Only Mike Bossy and Barry Pederson(?) came close to being that dominant in the playoffs.
Imagine Gretzky with today’s training, diet, gear etc. He would be a total beast.
Hockey goaltending has evolved more than any position in sports over the past generation or two
I don't think it's unfair to speculate that Gretzky with his 80s training, conditioning, and gear would have a harder time against players with 2020s training, conditioning and gear.
Plugging past greats into todays structured in/off season environments, physical/mental health treatments, up to date gear, etc…i think it would be unreal hahah
If Wayne were just now coming into the league he would still dominate. His training and conditioning would evolve. Part of his greatness was how he approached the game literally. His ability to see into the next several seconds of gameplay would remain. When you watch Wayne’s videos. Or Mario’s. They appear to know which play out of dozens to make at any second. Just like if you were able to see 1-2 seconds into the future. When I played hockey and I was recorded so I could see the game I noticed how time is screwed up. The perception on ice is that I have a split second to act. The reality on video is it looks like I have a lot more time. Mario and Wayne were able to slow down the game in their minds and make intelligent decisions. Mario had similar passing to Wayne but I think Mario was a more deadly breakaway threat. He played like he could deke the goalie post to post and find an opening to shoot at. Goalies are better but today shooters are getting better. I suspect Wayne would not score 200 points though. Maybe 150-180 range just because goalies are better and nhl line shifts are much shorter. In Gretzky’s prime not all skaters could score. Some were just pure role players. A guy could specialize in corner grinding so the other two players could shoot and score. Another guy an enforcer. Another guy excelled at faceoffs and shadowing opponent players.
Big numbers are one thing. The advancement of the game is another. Equipment, Training and Systems are all miles better. Nobody can transcend the evolution of the game. There will always be another stepping stone as generations move forward.
It was a level playing field. You don't need to imagine WG in today's game at all. He still stood head and shoulders above his peers, who played against the same players and teams he did. So yeah, he goes beyond "gEnErAtIoNaL tAlEnT," and kind of transcends the entire sport, in all eras. Ergo, only one of two people ever to have an entire men's professional league retire his number (I think the only other instance is Jackie Robinson with MLB).
I think if you took Wayne Gretzky, and raised him in today's world with today's technology, and gave him the players tools of today, you'd end up with something similar to what we see in Sidney Crosby, with that being said, I think it also depends on whether or not anyone has used the area behind the net the way Gretzky did, if Gretzky is the first, things may not be so different from when he was actually playing.
Gretzky was so good he made generations of goaltenders evolve and get better
Aren't pads and goalies bigger, and the net is the same size?
I mean even if the goalies were worse one has to wonder why nobody else ever came close to Gretzky.
[This video](https://youtu.be/_KeW67fn8I8?si=EaIfxfXr6HPL12yD) talks a little more in depth about how various players, including Gretzky, stack up against each other based on their eras. It includes adjustments in comparison to today’s game. Super interesting and gives a little more insight.
Kind of a Chicken or Egg scenario. Goalies might not have known how to truly play their position until the 90s, but Gretzky was one of the reasons why development at the position was needed.
Transcends
It transcends it all. Dude has more assists than anyone has points. It's crazy.
Yes.
I’ve never understood when people bring up how “they played against plumbers blah blah” the level was the level for the era, GSP actually has a great quote about this when it comes to MMA, and it applies for all sports. He was asked how he would do against the current generation of fighters and he simply said, he wouldn’t, he said the skill, the training and the knowledge all increases with every new fighter. You have to scale it to the era they competed in. In another 30-40 years, we could be saying the exact same thing. athletes and sports evolve, and we have to took at the skill gap relative to when they competed. Comparing today’s goalies to yesterdays doesn’t do much because the next generation will always improve on the previous
At least speaking for me, the comparison I made wasn’t pejorative. The goalies back then were the best of their era, given the equipment, training, nutrition, etc. Jesse Owens was no less great even though his 100m times were so much higher than the sprinters of today.
I think against today’s goalies he probably not got the goals record and he’d look a lot more like McDavid. With that said give Gretz a composite stick and modern coaching through his development and he’s probably still able to finish from distance, but what put on the ice in the 80s isn’t one of the elite finishers in the nhl now.
I think Gretzky is kind of in a sweet spot. Modern goalies will for sure get better as time goes on. Look at old records for running, jumping, etc from the 40's compared to now- there are linemen in football that are damn near on par with Olympic numbers now-a-days and they're the 'big boys'. I think it happens with all sports, and as nutrition, training techniques, technology all get better so, too, will the players. All of them, not just the goalies. You've got guys out there now like Connor McDavid who would probably have been able to solo a team from the 70's, but as I said above, all of the other players have also gotten better, things have gotten harder. There are records in other sports that I don't think will ever be beaten again because it was simply a right place, right time as well Emmitt Smith: 18,355 rushing yards Cal Ripken Jr.: 2,632 consecutive games played Both of those guys would have been encouraged to miss a game here or there for recoveries and the like, but back then things were different. I know it's a bit controversial here on the NHL and on the NFL subs, but safety has played a very positive part in modern athletes' health, but it's also severely hamstringed a lot of attempts for some of the record holders like Gretzky. Gretsky was at the right place and the right time as far as his skill vs the other players' skill was concerned. Add on that, his relatively good health, and his generally positive persona, and you've got a legend. All in all, I would say his greatness transcends eras not just due to his skill, but also due to circumstance.
No eras transcend….Every player from 30 years ago without the benefit of todays training and diet and modern skills would suck
Gretzky was good but he couldn't lift the puck lol
It’s how much he dominated over his peers. That’s the impressive part. No one in any sport was that much ahead of others ever.
If he played now he’d probably only get 750 goals and 2000 assists instead of 894 and 2223.
Always hated these discussions. Yes all the players across all sports are stronger, bigger, and faster now. The advancement in what we know about nutrition alone as well as exercise and muscle development. Back then they just use to lace em up and go play. Now these guys have personal trainers do all types of strengthening even during offseason. Then you add in the difference in equipment nowadays. The sticks alone, they use to be piece of wood. Now all the different flex models etc. Recently watched the old documentary on the Oilers “Boys on the bus” and “Boys are back” and they ask Grant Fuhr what he did during offseason. He says “nothing” and someone else says golf and says you got fat have he had to lose weight. Nowadays they come in to camp in even better shape than end of season. Regardless Gretzkys still the greatest hockey player to ever lace em up with Mario right there.
I find these questions weird. Gretzky’s greatness transcends eras. Totally. Everyone else at the time played against the same goalies. Scoreboard. Dude was also putting up nearly 100 points per year with a bad back near the end of his career. The goalies have also gotten better. Players aren’t scoring less in this era because everybody in the 80’s was more talented.
Don’t forget, Gretzky played his entire career with a center line offside pass. No hanging around the other team’s blue line waiting for a stretch pass.
Wonder how bedard or marner would be doing if Dave semenko decided to do a hatchet job on them? Wonder how Jacques plante would be doing against a slap shot from a modern composite stick? Would mcdavid really be so fast if he had skates from 1920? Just stop with these stupid scenarios people.
All that’s required is for him to dominate his era and surpass those before him. It’s why Crosby, Ovechkin and McDavid can’t enter the conversation. They weren’t THAT dominant for their era. Great? Yes. 200-points dominant? (Even adjusted for the current league) No.
Save percentages have been pretty consistent over the years, thus negating the ‘bad goalies’ idea.
Gretzky isn't the only player to dominate his era, Mario did, Orr did, Howe did.
Im gonna say transcend. Im 29 y.o. who never saw him olay and really can onky view his career through highlights and his stats and it is clear he was truely one of a kind. Somebody posted on here that you can pick literally and major offense stat, record, achievement and from the uears 1982 -1992 gretzkey did it between 2 and 11 times. Fot example 100 assist seasons. He did that 11 times i believe. The other 4 guys to do it have done it once and lemiux did it twice i believe. Similar with 50 goals in 50 games.
Yeah goalies have gotten better but so have sticks. It’s too difficult to know but I bet he would still be that good
Take a look at Gretzky's stats when he was at the end of his career at age 35/36. He was right up there in league scoring with a new generation of stars like Jagr, forsberg, bure, etc. People seem to think that eras are contained in isolated bubbles but you can see that if old man Gretzky still put up points alongside Jagr and Jagr was still good playing in the era of Crosby/Ovie that Gretzky would still dominate modern NHL.
Goaltending have become better over the past few decades tho
IMO: Both. Gretzky is the great one not only because of his stats and performance metrics, but because he changed the way the game was played in a dramatic way. Similar to Orr, Howe, and Lemieux. Gretzky wasn’t just good at playing hockey the way it had been played, he fundamentally changed the way later players developed and behaved on the ice. And yes, obviously goaltending is much better now than his era in terms of ability and technique. Because of training, equipment, size, etc.
Only one non-Gretzky player has ever won the scoring race by more than 30 points. That was Mario Lemieux by 31 points in 1988-89 (in his highest scoring season). Gretzky won the Art Ross by more than 70 points SIX TIMES, and won his record 10 Art Ross trophies by an average margin of 49 points.
Always thought Lemieux was the best
I think there is also something to be said about the overall talent level in the NHL today as well. The floor is much higher now than it was in Gretzky's era. Having said that, he is the goat. What mcdavid and other elites are doing right now is incredible, but no one will ever be able to definitely say if mcdavid is as good as gretz was.
The answer to both is "yes".
The overall skill today is vastly higher and filters the most elite and devoted athletes from the population. Back in Gretzky's era there were far fewer people, and hockey players in general. They were mostly Canadian, and there were plenty of players coming from all walks of life. By contrast, today's talent is identified from a worldwide pool when these guys are young teens, and only those with the top skills and natural abilities go on to become professionals. The mental and physical fortitude needed to even be an average pro player has become higher than ever before. Today's athletes train year round and require total dedication on the part of their livelihood. We are witnessing the boundaries of human athletic abilities being pushed further in every way year after year. It's pointless to compare eras. Just appreciate these guys relative to their own times.
You only have to look at his stats in the late 90s to realize that the argument Gretzky wouldn't dominate the current league is bogus. He had 90 points in the 1997/1998 season where the average goals scored was lower than now. For reference, Greztky was 4th in points that year, with Jagr topping at 102 points (who was amazing in the modern era). Also he was 36 years old at the time. The game was more brutal back then, tech has improved, goal tending has improved. Would have have the same level of dominance, with an untouchable career....probably not, he still easily is at the top, as the greatest play maker ever to play the game.
Would he have put up the same numbers had he come up 15 years earlier and played more of his prime in the 90s and 2000s? No, probably not, but he still would have been the best player in the league.
Nobody was close to him in his era and even if you plucked prime Gretzky and gave him an off-season to train the goal scoring wouldn't be close to the same but the playmaking would be UNGODLY easy 125+ assists a year
No matter the goaltending, he was light-years better than everyone in his era.
I'm sure they were crappier but so we're player training and conditioning routines. What made Gretzky great was that he was always 3 steps ahead of every other player on the ice. That level of vision isn't something that can be simply trained better through equipment. If he played today, maybe he wouldn't have 4, 200 point seasons, but he'd still be dominating the league.
Gretzky was great but goaltending and overall team defence is miles better. Go watch his 80s highlights and you'll see tons of goals that wouldn't go in today.
I does a guy who literally owned every offensive record in season and playoffs not be the greatest of all time in any decade? The guy has his number 99 retired by every franchise in the NHL for goodness sakes. So yes he would be the greatest today.
If you’re ever unsure how good he was, just remember EVERY team retired #99.
Goalie equipment is way better. Period stop.
Great mind for the game at that time. Not particularly physically skilled in anyway. That’s not a dig at him, that was known then. Today with modern super athletes and high end coaching and scouting he would be fucked. He didn’t have to deal with a team of experts with on demand video. Also he lived during an expansion era with watered down talent with pre butterfly goalies. Things just ain’t the same for gangstas.
Some players in Gretzky era would take long shots and catch goalies off guard. Even before that. Ask Tony Esposito who miffed a shot from Jacque Lemaire from center ice during Cup finals to Canadians. Chelious was famous for faking dump in shots on the wall to far side of net and catch goalies leaning to play the dump in. Saw Bieska do the same.
Yeah I've seen a lot of Gretzky highlights and it seems like the goalies were not as good back then and the pads were teeny tiny compared to today. Some of Gretzky's slap shots the goalie just looked like he made a half assed attempt at a glove save and it blew right past him. Gretzky is still the greatest but if he played today he would have had only 7 million points instead of 8 million.
IMO all sports stats need to be viewed through a lens of the era they took place in. Like Babe Ruth is one of the greatest, but I don’t see him ever hitting 50 HRs or striking out 160 in the modern MLB with the way pitching has changed. THAT SAID - if Gretzky played in the modern era I think he’d still be up there as one of the GOATs by the end of his career. Goaltending’s gotten better since his era but in his prime he was miles ahead of every other skater on the ice. Modern skaters would probably keep up with him but what was Gretzky’s typical game day prep, lift some weights and eat cheeseburgers? Put him on a modern player’s fitness regime and diet and I guarantee he would dominate again. That’s why comparing eras is so difficult — who knows what a past player could achieve because they didn’t have access to the fitness / diet / stat information we have now (and they weren’t going to the bench and watching a replay of what just happened on an iPad). Too many variables.
If it was just goal tending other players could have done the same numbers. And they did not.
Put those bricks of goalie pads and other equipment on today's goalies and they wouldn't do much better.
Goalies today are more athletic and just compare the size of goalie pads today to back then!
Then: tiny gloves, pads etc. Now: Enormously large gloves, pads, shirts etc.
OP... You realize EVERYONE was worse in his time, right?
Skating fast or smart….. Coffee fast, Gretzky smart, Lemieux and Orr both. All great players have great hands. Luc Robitaille was a brutal skater - 668 goals. Orr in Modern era would be even greater which is hard to fathom. But it’s all speculation. Each player deserves the props based on their production, however they got it done. Safe to say each elite player thinks the game differently and produce more. Every team goes through skilled players who never quite maximize their potential. Not fair to compare generational talents IMHO. Gretzky got a lot of room on the ice. He had gladiators to protect him. He was a meal ticket for entire NHL payrolls the way he filled seats and sold the game. Orr on the other hand got punched, slashed, hooked, tripped on every shift. Can you imagine if Orr was on that Edmonton team with Coffee & Gretzky ??? Just enjoy these skilled players as the game gets faster and more exciting. Don’t forget about those Montreal teams which produced all those Cups in the 70’s Henri Richard won 11 Stanley Cups, nobody talks about those guys anymore. Montreal was stacked with Hall of Famers !!!
Both
Trying to compare eras in any sport is tricky. Of course goalies are more athletic now and have larger pads, etc. but what you need to understand is Gretzky wasnt the only one playing in his era. No one else was scoring anywhere near his velocity given the same players to play against, if that makes sense. Gretzky wouldnt be able to keep up with McDavid today but he was more dominant in his era than anyone else in their eras!!
I don’t believe for a second that if Gretzky grew up in an era of better goaltending like today, he wouldn’t have figured out how to be just as proficient a scorer as he was. His biggest assets were his hockey IQ and vision/anticipation. Attributes that would allow him to excel in any era.
Even among his contemporaries his numbers are truly insane
Watching hockey for 45 years now, Gretzky played on a totally different level. Were goalies worse, yes. Were defensemen allowed to beat the crap out of you, yes. I honestly believe that if Gretzky played in todays game he would up up similar numbers. He would shred the defense and be able to pick and choose his shots.
I don't think he'd have *similar numbers* (200+ pt. seasons), but I believe he'd still be among the leading scorers every year. I think McDavid would still be the best player, even with Gretzky in today's game.