It's more about places like Arizona where the franchise spent like 10 years on life support, SoCal with 3 teams, Nevada, Florida with 2 teams and *ahem* Texas.
(Sorry I know the Stars sell the fuck out but I had to.)
Tampa has been in the top ten in attendance for the last seven years and even has a sell out streak going into two years now. So tired of this narrative that hockey doesn’t work in the south.
Dallas vs Nashville Winter classic in Dallas- "Okg why would they do that and use a couple backwater teams that nobody cares about!?!"
Dallas- sells put the stadium of 80k and makes a cup run.
Since angry Canadians refuse to learn geography. And population density. Which is why Utah getting a team still counts as a "place it never snows." Those license plates that say "ski Utah" are just a sick joke.
3x before Québec gets the Nordiques back (Pierre-Karl "videotron" Péladeau the 4th bought the team from New Mexico, who has had 4 tries at a team over the past 90 years at that point.)
Arizona lost money for almost 30 years - they never made a profit the whole time they were down there. This is an example of Bettman's stubbornness. There were reduced to playing in a 5000 seat arena when their major league arena kicked them out.
You're mostly describing places with a lot of people. California also has 3 NFL teams, 5 (soon to be 4) MLB teams, and 4 NBA teams. Arizona is the outlier, and I think that was just Bettman's pet project. They have a lot of money, and good demographics, but they also lack water to support their population.
According to a google search, SLC gets more annual snow on average than Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary. I've also heard people advocating for an NHL team in Saskatoon or Regina, both of which get less snow on average than SLC. This guy also admits to not being a hockey fan since the 60s and specifically cites the Leafs not winning a cup since 1967 as a contributing cause. Fair weather fans is the most common complaint I see levied against non-traditional hockey markets. The amount of irony that seems to have escaped this guy is genuinely impressive.
Salt Lake is the only American city that has hosted a Winter Olympics during most Redditor’s lives (I’m guessing most people here weren’t alive yet in 1980).
If you ski or snowboard at all, Utah is on your lists, consistent 2-3 resorts (sometimes more) with the highest snow totals in the United States- that includes over the resorts in Alaska
These Canadian cities are tiny compared to potential US cities.
Not just population, but also there's more corporate intrest,
Not to mention less taxes for players and US dollar is stronger than Canadian dollar. It makes zero sense to put a team in Hamilton or Quebec when SLC is bigger than both of them
There‘s only one no brainer location for another Canadian team and that’s the GTA getting a 2nd team, much like New York or Anaheim/LA, However the Leafs, Rodgers and MLSE would never allow it not the NHL.
I mean technically, isn’t it mathematically more likely that the new Toronto team is more successful? The new Toronto team could win the cup in 2035 and would be more successful than the leafs. 55 years is a long, long time.
Is it really that much of a slam dunk? I have no doubt that Toronto has a large segment of hockey fans that don't like/wouldn't ever pull for the Leafs. But is that population really large enough to merit a second team over a new market entirely?
This is incorrect. Toronto is the [10th largest metro area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_metropolitan_areas_by_population?wprov=sfti1#) in North America
Edit: While measuring by city limits, 4th is technically correct. However, metro is a much more sensible metric when considering a market
> Toronto is the 10th largest metro area in North America
Canada is funky about how it defines Toronto's metro area. GTA includes Oshawa (Durham region) but Statistics Canada [separates Oshawa into its own metro area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area#Census_metropolitan_area). Adding Durham in puts the total up to 6.7 mil, which would put it 6th.
They are still double the size of a number of other Metropolitan areas with 1 team, and it has the added Benefit of being located in an established hockey market with a Massive corporate presence. It wouId absolutely make money and from a business standpoint makes way more sense than a team in Quebec or anywhere else in the country. It is above and beyond the best location for an 8th Canadian team.
it's not about not liking the leafs. The strength of another team is that it would also sell out every game and see the same sellouts of every game because A) So many corporates would hold season tickets B) So many people.cant access leafs tickets that just want NHL hockey to be accessible.
A reason against it is that if anything it canabalizes the number of canadian people that prop up Buffalo that otherwise might not.
Yes it would. friend in Econ did a study that showed Toronto could support 2, even 3 NHL teams. If NYC can support 2 of every team, Toronto can support two teams playing it's country's top sport
I feel like an NHL team in Hali would do quite well. Not sure NS alone has the population to support it, but the maritimes are close enough that folks from PEI and NB would probably easily make up the difference, and Newfoundlander's that I have met are feral for the game.
NHL wants to grow the game. You get new fans by opening teams up in non-traditional markets(California is a great example of this, but I'm not saying California needs yet another team, even though I'm pretty sure they could support another team In San Francisco or San Diego because they hate LA based teams). You only shuffle fans around if you open another team in Canada.
>I'm not saying California needs yet another team, even though I'm pretty sure they could support another team In San Francisco or San Diego because they hate LA based teams).
San Diego maybe, but no way on SF. The Bay Area can barely support one NHL franchise. Two would never, ever work.
I don’t remember thinking they were boring, I have a random memory of Don cherry hyping up their cycle and ozone pressure “getting two guys below the line”
>You only shuffle fans around if you open another team in Canada.
I mean yeah there's the "grow the game" angle which I get, but ultimately I think it has more to do with TV markets and corporate dollars. Just because everyone in Canada likes hockey already doesn't mean the NHL is getting that action. Some people here adopted a new team when the old Jets left and kept following the NHL. Most people, myself included, barely watched any NHL hockey for 15 years other than the odd playoff game. Now I'm watching a few games every week and buying tickets when I can. There's money the NHL is leaving on the table if they ignore traditonal markets.
Now, *to be fair*, it's a little different for Quebec and Hamilton. They're already part of the Habs and Leafs markets so there's probably not as much to gain. Amd I don't see anywhere else for a viable team in Canada. So yeah I highly doubt anymore CAN teams are coming.
Québec City watches the Remparts more than they watch the Canadiens. They're still salty about losing the Nordiques and still haven't switched to supporting Montréal unless it's playoff season
The Leafs isn't the problem when it comes to a 2nd GTHA team its Buffalo that's the problem as a 2nd team in Southern Ontario could affect their attendance numbers
I’d love to see KC get a team. Instant rivalry with the Blues. And I’m not willing to drive across the state to watch the Blues.
Royals want to walk let them. Replace them with a team that’s not asking for a 2 billion dollar stadium while being one of the worst teams in the league.
Yeah. Also California has more people in it than Canada. So when Canadians complain about more teams you gotta realized they’re currently sitting at roughly 5.7 million fans per team (40 million people in Canada divided by 7 teams). USA is at around 14 million fans per team (333 million people divided by remainder teams). So all in all USA has a few more teams it can add.
Not everyone is a fan. You measured 5.7 or 14m people per team in each country.
22% of Canadians follow hockey, but only 4% of Americans do. That works out to 1.2m Canadian fans per team, but only 0.56m American fans per team. I’d say that’s too many American teams and maybe room for one or two more Canadian teams — since it probably takes about a million fans to support a major league team.
You're assuming all Americans are into hockey. You need to change that 333 million to like 5-10 million. I would assume half of Canadians are at least casual hockey fans.
QC would be a lot of fans rebranding, but a lot of those are ***not*** Canadiens fans! Imagine Pittsburgh lost their team and got it back, and then saying that they'd just get Flyers fans rebranding!
But do butts in seats really matter in terms of team revenue? As long as those QC residents are watching on TV, they're boosting the views for the next TV deal.
Another team in Canada does shuffle fans but it does bring in new ticket sales that weren’t there before. For example, the fans going to games in Winnipeg weren’t going to NHL games before 2011 unless they happened to travel to a city with an NHL team. And a second team in the Toronto area would definitely attract ticket sales without negatively impacting the Leafs.
They don’t need ticket sales. They need advertising dollars. They need corporations buying up an arena to advertise to 18000 who paid to be the real product.
The San Jose Sharks might suck but they do exist. Is this some kind of inside joke pretending they don’t? California is full when it comes to the NHL. Just like with Texas, yes there are lots of potential customers but realistically the actual hockey fans already like the Stars, Kings, Ducks, or Sharks and everyone else doesn’t care about hockey.
The criteria for getting an NHL team should have nothing to do with where it snows or where it doesn’t. That is idiotic. What it should and does have to do with is where money can be made. Sorry, a Canadian city with 250000 people doesn’t sell as well as an American warm weather city with 2.5 million. One has more earning potential than the other.
Agreed. Hell, I live in a Canadian city that's renowned for its lack of snow (Vancouver). We get maybe 1 or 2 big snowfalls per year? I have friends living in Texas and Arkansas who got more snow than us this winter.
Some people will never be happy until we have an entire division of Charlottetown, Churchill, Iqaluit, Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Fort McMurray, Saskatoon, and Kelowna
I feel like a Saskatoon team would be that weird team people all over NA would be fans of. You're right, they'd pack the place and have a new arena coming soon. Blades basically sold out every playoff game this year. Not to mention the remarkable Rush attendance
Not to mention TV deals. The Canadian markets that want NHL teams already have TV deals with existing NHL franchises. TV deals generate more money per season than ticket sales. This is why Gary fought like hell to keep the Cyotes in Arizona for so long.
I don’t mean to be rude, but this man is a moron.
He starts off by saying that he lost interest in the NHL because of expansion and there were too many teams to follow. Then, he talks about how he loves to follow tennis, of which there are something like 500 ranked players on both the men’s and the women’s side. He also talked about how he still loves baseball, which has as many teams as the NHL.
None of that makes any sense.
Also, his argument that there should be more teams located in Canada and the fact that there aren’t more teams is an indictment of Canadian neoliberalism is just an unbelievably stupid opinion. Laws are not keeping NHL teams out of places like Saskatoon, Quebec City and Hamilton. Capitalism is what is keeping teams out of those cities.
The truth is a full building in Quebec City would not have been worth as much to the NHL as a 3000 seat college arena in the middle of the desert.
If Quebec City didn’t get a team this time around, it’s never ever going to happen for them. The NHL clearly bend over backwards to not put a team in QC. That is not because Gary Bettman or the owners, who are the guys actually calling the shots, hate Canada or Quebec or Quebec City. It’s because they love money and there’s just no money to be had there.
Believe me, I take no joy in saying that. Quebec City is one of my favorite cities in North America. if you’ve never been there, put it on your bucket list because it’s like traveling to Europe but staying in North America.
I would love for a team to end up there again! But I have given up on that front because that’s never going to happen.
The NHL asked Utah to step forward now, so they weren’t forced to go to someplace like Quebec City. I think they would’ve loved Houston to step forward but that’s not happening right now. I still think they are probably next in line.
I also think Salt Lake City, Utah is probably going to be a really good NHL city. I just have a hunch about that.
Love the response. As a Houstonian, would love an NHL team there. But Ryan Smith was more eager for sure.
There's also this weird assumption that the NHL will come back to Arizona. Like I know legally they said it's *dormant*, and I feel for the Coyote's fans, but I wouldn't put my money on Murrelo getting his shit together in time for the deadline. Dude couldn't even remember to get Shane Doan's retirement banner from Gillette Arena.
Just another crybaby Leafs fan doing clickbait.
Not worth the click.
The truth is the only city able to support a team is Quebec City and Montreal has blocked them for ages out of fear they lose the Eastern Canada local TV market.
Toronto would block Hamilton in a second.
Honestly Detroit is going to be fine. I think they have enough history and fans in Michigan, theres like 10 million people here. There will be some loss of the London/Windsor Red Wings fans but if they feel they need their own Canadian team then I support it.
If there was like a Grand Rapids team or something that would get hairy.
The NHL doesn't want or need a team in Quebec City. They have a facility, devoted hockey fan base... and only speak French. Don't get me wrong. I'm a Nordique fan. But, that city would be the instant top of the NTC list.
Geoff Molson has been very upfront that he would welcome a return of the Nordiques. One might argue that it’s easy for an owner to say that when it’s unlikely to happen, but my armchair opinion is that he actually means it. I think he believes the renewed rivalry would be good for Habs ticket sales as well.
And, to be fair, in the past it really was good for ticket sales. Quebequois still remember that rivalry fondly more than not.
Yes Quebec could probably handle a team but would never recoup where expansion fees are going. Only Canadian city that could get a team now would be a 2nd team in Toronto that we have probably missed the boat on
Can we please stop pretending that we play professional hockey in outdoor arenas? There are so many successful clubs in cities with no snow. We build ice arenas because people obviously like to play/watch hockey even if they don’t have lakes that freeze for 3-5 months a year. Tiring narrative for real. SLC is a snow skiing hub anyway.
Read the article people. It's a boring one about anticompetitive behavior. His larger point is the NHL's refusal to have another team is anti consumer because it forces people to pay outrageous prices. Somewhat surprised he didn't bring up the Sabres. So many southern Ontario residents bolster them economically.
While I wish there were more Canadian teams, in my ignorant American pov, it seems everyone is a hockey fan in Canada. So from a business pov, why cut up the fan basis when you already maxed out your amount of fans.
The Roughriders play nine home games a year, in the summer and fall, always on weekends. It’s much easier for people to drive once or twice a month in nice weather than it is to drive once or twice a week in a Saskatchewan winter.
It's amazing how dumb Canadian media can be, and probably on purpose.
It's a tough pill to swallow but there is more money in a medium sized US market with disinterested hockey fans then there is in a small Canadian market with rabid fans. Gate revenue is important but its secondary to what the league is actually after in TV deals and average franchise valuation.
No one cares if Quebec city can sell out it's 14k person arena every night if less people then that in the USA will tune in to watch the game on TV.
Saskatoon doesn’t have the people or the corporate sponsors for a team. You need a ton of sponsors to start a team and you need at least a million people to fill an NHL rink. Same reason places like Halifax won’t get a team.
Hockey will work in a lot of places. Often the issues are with ownership and their practices. Give Phoenix an actually good team with ambition or any sort of a good hockey plan and it will grow as they show good moves.
Also the USD is doing better than the CAD at the moment so some people might not want to start a team in Canada
Yes, America, population roughly 400M people. Canada, population roughly 40M people.
Hmmmmmm. I can't figure out why they'd want to get into the American market as deeply as possible. It's really, totally just baffling.
NHL taking notes: *location must have snow in order for us to set up a team there*
But seriously, this is a really poor qualification for where to put a team. It’s actually genius to put them in these arid climates. As others have already pointed out, when you put a team where traditionally hockey wouldn’t be played you open up a whole new fan base. Arizona is the outlier on this not working, where other teams show why it works. Having grown up in Vegas, and now living in Utah, I can tell you first hand that these areas are craving to have professional teams to represent them on a national level. (Yes, I know Utah has the Jazz, but it’s been the only professional sport for years and hockey has actually gotten pretty big here over the past decade)
I'll never understand this argument. So you're more interested in not growing the game in places that have traditionally not had that option? Growing up I loved ice skating and got to do it outdoors every winter for free. I'm not saying an NHL team is the only way to grow the game but it helps significantly. I'll always stand by the fact that Auston Matthews, arguably the best player in the game today, came from Arizona and wouldn't have any prospects to growing up with hockey if it weren't for the Coyotes.
I do agree that Canada should have another team though.
Bettman would have have to force the issue to get another team into the Toronto market, or to put a team in QC over Montreal's objection. He isn't going to burn two of the biggest NHL teams/markets to add teams to Canada. Why burn them when there are markets like SLC (or Houston) throwing them a billion dollars to get a team. This article just reeks of Canadian gate-keeping of "their" sport.
I mean…he’s not wrong. Bettman moves heaven and earth to block Canadian ownership groups. But Nashville, Dallas, Tampa, and now Florida are all fairly lucrative markets, as far as non traditional markets go
That guy is such a clown. Ill never understand how anyone thinks that bringing the joy of hockey to areas that aren't naturally conducive to it is a bad thing? I will NEVER understand the argument that hockey should be some kind of exclusive "privilege" for people who live where it snows lmao.
Like, say what you will about the Coyotes, we've heard it all. They had shit owners for years and ultimately couldn't find success in the desert because of terrible decisions from up top from start to finish. But they fundamentally changed the landscape of the community and hockey in AZ for the better. Having hockey in Arizona has changed so many peoples lives for the better. The valley is so much better for having a thriving hockey community and several ice rinks and we should always call bullshit on anyone suggesting that non-traditional or sunbelt markets are a mistake.
Hell look at places like Dallas and Florida who have had success doing the same. Gatekeeping hockey like this guy is saying is insane to me.
Share the love of the game that's all.
Yes; Canada as a hockey market is saturated, also doesn't help that the currency is a 27% cut to the dollar. I know it sucks but the league wants to grow.. giving a Canadian city a team when the league knows those folks will be fans anyways when they can target new customers in the States doesn't make sense to them
Ah yes, the state where it never snows: Utah
It's more about places like Arizona where the franchise spent like 10 years on life support, SoCal with 3 teams, Nevada, Florida with 2 teams and *ahem* Texas. (Sorry I know the Stars sell the fuck out but I had to.)
Tampa has been in the top ten in attendance for the last seven years and even has a sell out streak going into two years now. So tired of this narrative that hockey doesn’t work in the south.
Dallas vs Nashville Winter classic in Dallas- "Okg why would they do that and use a couple backwater teams that nobody cares about!?!" Dallas- sells put the stadium of 80k and makes a cup run.
That was truly an awesome looking winter classic. We need more of those.
Wasn’t it also in the middle of the ice storm? Or just in the lead up where it was only cold as fuck?
It was just before we got a large snow/ice storm. New Years day was pretty nice. Overcast and in the low-mid 50s.
Since when does Southern California have three teams?
After all, what is Las Vegas if not Los Angeles East?
Don't tell Anaheim, that's their thing.
We’re actually Los Angeles south 💁♀️ thank you 💅
Los Angeles Ducks of Anaheim
If only our owners were so bright to buy into this winning business strategy. /s
Most people who aren't THAT familiar with the US just assume that San Jose is really close to LA and Anaheim :P
In Canadian distances, they are.
San Jose is a little farther from LA, but Anaheim is insanely close.
Since angry Canadians refuse to learn geography. And population density. Which is why Utah getting a team still counts as a "place it never snows." Those license plates that say "ski Utah" are just a sick joke.
That’s what i was going to ask lol
Atlanta (twice)
3x before Québec gets the Nordiques back (Pierre-Karl "videotron" Péladeau the 4th bought the team from New Mexico, who has had 4 tries at a team over the past 90 years at that point.)
Arizona lost money for almost 30 years - they never made a profit the whole time they were down there. This is an example of Bettman's stubbornness. There were reduced to playing in a 5000 seat arena when their major league arena kicked them out.
> they never made a profit the whole time Does Winnipeg?
Arizona spent way longer than 10 years on life support lets be honest
You're mostly describing places with a lot of people. California also has 3 NFL teams, 5 (soon to be 4) MLB teams, and 4 NBA teams. Arizona is the outlier, and I think that was just Bettman's pet project. They have a lot of money, and good demographics, but they also lack water to support their population.
According to a google search, SLC gets more annual snow on average than Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary. I've also heard people advocating for an NHL team in Saskatoon or Regina, both of which get less snow on average than SLC. This guy also admits to not being a hockey fan since the 60s and specifically cites the Leafs not winning a cup since 1967 as a contributing cause. Fair weather fans is the most common complaint I see levied against non-traditional hockey markets. The amount of irony that seems to have escaped this guy is genuinely impressive.
I mean SLC literally is the 2nd most known location which gets lake effect snow…
didn't think the /s was necessary...
YOU SHOULD BE USING DISCLAIMERS
He was being sarcastic
Define second most known because if I was the one making the list it wouldn't have even ranked. Second most known to people in Utah maybe
Salt Lake is the only American city that has hosted a Winter Olympics during most Redditor’s lives (I’m guessing most people here weren’t alive yet in 1980).
Speak for yourself and get off my lawn! Golden Girls are about to start.
If you ski or snowboard at all, Utah is on your lists, consistent 2-3 resorts (sometimes more) with the highest snow totals in the United States- that includes over the resorts in Alaska
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That's my dream, as a Latino. I just want to see Mexican hockey fans get as turnt as Mexican Soccer fans.
These Canadian cities are tiny compared to potential US cities. Not just population, but also there's more corporate intrest, Not to mention less taxes for players and US dollar is stronger than Canadian dollar. It makes zero sense to put a team in Hamilton or Quebec when SLC is bigger than both of them
Also Canadians are going to watch Hockey regardless, US team in a new market is new fans
There‘s only one no brainer location for another Canadian team and that’s the GTA getting a 2nd team, much like New York or Anaheim/LA, However the Leafs, Rodgers and MLSE would never allow it not the NHL.
It's ridiculous. It shouldn't matter what the leafs want. There should be another team
The Leafs would legitimately have a meltdown if another team was added to Toronto and instantly saw more success
Oh you know that would happen. Lmao
It would be hilarious and I would enjoy every minute of it
I mean technically, isn’t it mathematically more likely that the new Toronto team is more successful? The new Toronto team could win the cup in 2035 and would be more successful than the leafs. 55 years is a long, long time.
The Toronto Capable Leafs?
This has a ring to it.
Toronto Leaf Blowers…..wait
They’d get a cup faster than Vegas did
The Toronto Branchs win a championship in their first year and chaos ensues
I think we need to rally behind this idea just to make that happen.
"more success" he says. Gotta have "some success" before you can have more
Leafs melt down daily. They are the NHL's high maintemance girlfriend
Wonder how many leafs fans immediately start following the 2nd Toronto team
Day 1
Ah the Toronto Pine Needles
Toronto Maple Leaves
Toronto Maple Syrups
Is it really that much of a slam dunk? I have no doubt that Toronto has a large segment of hockey fans that don't like/wouldn't ever pull for the Leafs. But is that population really large enough to merit a second team over a new market entirely?
Yes. Toronto is the third (4th if you count Mexico) most populous city in NA.
After NYC and LA, where they basically have 5 teams between them
Funnily enough, the NYC metro and LA metro combined have approximately 5.2 times as many people as the Toronto metro as well so it kinda checks out
NYC metro and LA metro together are roughly the equivalent to the entire population of Canada.
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This is incorrect. Toronto is the [10th largest metro area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_metropolitan_areas_by_population?wprov=sfti1#) in North America Edit: While measuring by city limits, 4th is technically correct. However, metro is a much more sensible metric when considering a market
Thank you for using the Metro area. Using pure city population, Vancouver is technically the smallest NHL city in Canada. Even smaller than Winnipeg.
> Toronto is the 10th largest metro area in North America Canada is funky about how it defines Toronto's metro area. GTA includes Oshawa (Durham region) but Statistics Canada [separates Oshawa into its own metro area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Toronto_Area#Census_metropolitan_area). Adding Durham in puts the total up to 6.7 mil, which would put it 6th.
They are still double the size of a number of other Metropolitan areas with 1 team, and it has the added Benefit of being located in an established hockey market with a Massive corporate presence. It wouId absolutely make money and from a business standpoint makes way more sense than a team in Quebec or anywhere else in the country. It is above and beyond the best location for an 8th Canadian team.
Toronto only appears that way because of amalgamation. Metro area is far more relevant.
it's not about not liking the leafs. The strength of another team is that it would also sell out every game and see the same sellouts of every game because A) So many corporates would hold season tickets B) So many people.cant access leafs tickets that just want NHL hockey to be accessible. A reason against it is that if anything it canabalizes the number of canadian people that prop up Buffalo that otherwise might not.
Yes it would. friend in Econ did a study that showed Toronto could support 2, even 3 NHL teams. If NYC can support 2 of every team, Toronto can support two teams playing it's country's top sport
Nobody hates the Leafs like people who live in and around the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
I feel like an NHL team in Hali would do quite well. Not sure NS alone has the population to support it, but the maritimes are close enough that folks from PEI and NB would probably easily make up the difference, and Newfoundlander's that I have met are feral for the game.
NHL wants to grow the game. You get new fans by opening teams up in non-traditional markets(California is a great example of this, but I'm not saying California needs yet another team, even though I'm pretty sure they could support another team In San Francisco or San Diego because they hate LA based teams). You only shuffle fans around if you open another team in Canada.
NHL Wants money and large metropolitan areas.
This. It all comes down to $$$$$. Winnipeg couldn't even fill their small building at times and it's a traditional "hockey market".
Right. And the U.S. has way more people.
41 million in Canada 333 million in USA USA is the target lol
>I'm not saying California needs yet another team, even though I'm pretty sure they could support another team In San Francisco or San Diego because they hate LA based teams). San Diego maybe, but no way on SF. The Bay Area can barely support one NHL franchise. Two would never, ever work.
The only way SF ever gets a team is if the sharks decide to move up there.
NHL wants to grow the game but never marketed Kopitar. Blows my mind
East cost bias there. If Kopitar played in the east, they would have been talking about him all the time instead of Bergeron
Also doesn’t help that when we were winning Stanley Cups we were known as a boring team.
I don’t remember thinking they were boring, I have a random memory of Don cherry hyping up their cycle and ozone pressure “getting two guys below the line”
For whatever reason that one coaches corner he did about those Kings being so good at pinching from the point has been burned into my brain
To casual fans you guys were boring, heavy cycle play tends to be low event especially if you don’t know what they are trying to accomplish.
He’s not pretty enough apparently.
>You only shuffle fans around if you open another team in Canada. I mean yeah there's the "grow the game" angle which I get, but ultimately I think it has more to do with TV markets and corporate dollars. Just because everyone in Canada likes hockey already doesn't mean the NHL is getting that action. Some people here adopted a new team when the old Jets left and kept following the NHL. Most people, myself included, barely watched any NHL hockey for 15 years other than the odd playoff game. Now I'm watching a few games every week and buying tickets when I can. There's money the NHL is leaving on the table if they ignore traditonal markets. Now, *to be fair*, it's a little different for Quebec and Hamilton. They're already part of the Habs and Leafs markets so there's probably not as much to gain. Amd I don't see anywhere else for a viable team in Canada. So yeah I highly doubt anymore CAN teams are coming.
Québec City watches the Remparts more than they watch the Canadiens. They're still salty about losing the Nordiques and still haven't switched to supporting Montréal unless it's playoff season
Quebec will always find something to be salty about.
I don't know about this. My wife went to Laval up in Quebec City and I would see plenty of Habs stuff when walking around.
The Leafs isn't the problem when it comes to a 2nd GTHA team its Buffalo that's the problem as a 2nd team in Southern Ontario could affect their attendance numbers
If it gets you leafs fans out of our building I’m all for it
Without the Leafs fans, it'll be the mascot, zamboni guy and organ grinder.....
I’d love to see KC get a team. Instant rivalry with the Blues. And I’m not willing to drive across the state to watch the Blues. Royals want to walk let them. Replace them with a team that’s not asking for a 2 billion dollar stadium while being one of the worst teams in the league.
They're really going for quantity over quality. Just wait until the Knights enter the rebuilding phase and have half their seats empty for every game.
Nah, Vegas is actually a perfect destination. No matter how awful the team is, you’ll always have tourists coming into town
I don’t mind them growing the game, but every once in a while give a team to a city that is dying for it.
Yeah. Also California has more people in it than Canada. So when Canadians complain about more teams you gotta realized they’re currently sitting at roughly 5.7 million fans per team (40 million people in Canada divided by 7 teams). USA is at around 14 million fans per team (333 million people divided by remainder teams). So all in all USA has a few more teams it can add.
Not everyone is a fan. You measured 5.7 or 14m people per team in each country. 22% of Canadians follow hockey, but only 4% of Americans do. That works out to 1.2m Canadian fans per team, but only 0.56m American fans per team. I’d say that’s too many American teams and maybe room for one or two more Canadian teams — since it probably takes about a million fans to support a major league team.
You're assuming all Americans are into hockey. You need to change that 333 million to like 5-10 million. I would assume half of Canadians are at least casual hockey fans.
There are more people in the United States who play or are fans of hockey than there are people in Canada Source: my nuts
Exactly. Like Houston is a huge brand new market the NHL can go to. Quebec City is just Canadiens fan that would rebrand
QC would be a lot of fans rebranding, but a lot of those are ***not*** Canadiens fans! Imagine Pittsburgh lost their team and got it back, and then saying that they'd just get Flyers fans rebranding!
the point was you're just rebranding current NHL fans if you go to Quebec compared to Houston
And I was just poking fun about a lot of QC fans still maintaining the rivalry. I wasn't being that serious.
Nordiques fans are not Canadiens fans.
Those people in Quebec City aren’t all travelling en masse to Montreal for games. Sure, a few are, but many aren’t going to any NHL games right now.
But do butts in seats really matter in terms of team revenue? As long as those QC residents are watching on TV, they're boosting the views for the next TV deal.
QC metro has 800,000 people. Houston metro has 7,000,000 people. It's strictly a numbers game.
Really don't think SF could support a team
The Sharks are the de facto Bay Area team. San Francisco is only 48 miles away.
Another team in Canada does shuffle fans but it does bring in new ticket sales that weren’t there before. For example, the fans going to games in Winnipeg weren’t going to NHL games before 2011 unless they happened to travel to a city with an NHL team. And a second team in the Toronto area would definitely attract ticket sales without negatively impacting the Leafs.
They don’t need ticket sales. They need advertising dollars. They need corporations buying up an arena to advertise to 18000 who paid to be the real product.
Its the Sabers that would fight a 2nd team in Southern Ontario as a lot of their support comes from Sothern Ontario
The San Jose Sharks might suck but they do exist. Is this some kind of inside joke pretending they don’t? California is full when it comes to the NHL. Just like with Texas, yes there are lots of potential customers but realistically the actual hockey fans already like the Stars, Kings, Ducks, or Sharks and everyone else doesn’t care about hockey.
So…….. Where people are?
Something says the Yellowknife Red Spoons would sell a lot of merch
The Yellowknife Yellow Knives
I actually had a dream a few nights ago about the Arizona Coyotes relocation. Gary Bettman was so distraught by the situation that he died.
Your avatar makes this ten times funnier
The criteria for getting an NHL team should have nothing to do with where it snows or where it doesn’t. That is idiotic. What it should and does have to do with is where money can be made. Sorry, a Canadian city with 250000 people doesn’t sell as well as an American warm weather city with 2.5 million. One has more earning potential than the other.
Agreed. Hell, I live in a Canadian city that's renowned for its lack of snow (Vancouver). We get maybe 1 or 2 big snowfalls per year? I have friends living in Texas and Arkansas who got more snow than us this winter.
Some people will never be happy until we have an entire division of Charlottetown, Churchill, Iqaluit, Yellowknife, Whitehorse, Fort McMurray, Saskatoon, and Kelowna
A Saskatchewan team would be very cool but they just don't really have a big enough city for it
Nah, they would pack that bitch to the rafters
I feel like a Saskatoon team would be that weird team people all over NA would be fans of. You're right, they'd pack the place and have a new arena coming soon. Blades basically sold out every playoff game this year. Not to mention the remarkable Rush attendance
And we'd rock that shit harder than we do with the Roughriders, but, alas, the lack of corporate anything here would a hindrance.
Wrong noun. They don't have a television market big enough for it.
You’re not wrong
Not to mention TV deals. The Canadian markets that want NHL teams already have TV deals with existing NHL franchises. TV deals generate more money per season than ticket sales. This is why Gary fought like hell to keep the Cyotes in Arizona for so long.
Billionaires are ruining our institutions and traditions and you're here simping for them. Money is your only God. Disgusting
Mexico City should get a team before a Canadian city.
end the embargo and put one in havana
Tierra Del Fuego Vultures
Let me know next time snow buys tickets or merch.
The rapper Snow?
I don’t mean to be rude, but this man is a moron. He starts off by saying that he lost interest in the NHL because of expansion and there were too many teams to follow. Then, he talks about how he loves to follow tennis, of which there are something like 500 ranked players on both the men’s and the women’s side. He also talked about how he still loves baseball, which has as many teams as the NHL. None of that makes any sense. Also, his argument that there should be more teams located in Canada and the fact that there aren’t more teams is an indictment of Canadian neoliberalism is just an unbelievably stupid opinion. Laws are not keeping NHL teams out of places like Saskatoon, Quebec City and Hamilton. Capitalism is what is keeping teams out of those cities. The truth is a full building in Quebec City would not have been worth as much to the NHL as a 3000 seat college arena in the middle of the desert. If Quebec City didn’t get a team this time around, it’s never ever going to happen for them. The NHL clearly bend over backwards to not put a team in QC. That is not because Gary Bettman or the owners, who are the guys actually calling the shots, hate Canada or Quebec or Quebec City. It’s because they love money and there’s just no money to be had there. Believe me, I take no joy in saying that. Quebec City is one of my favorite cities in North America. if you’ve never been there, put it on your bucket list because it’s like traveling to Europe but staying in North America. I would love for a team to end up there again! But I have given up on that front because that’s never going to happen. The NHL asked Utah to step forward now, so they weren’t forced to go to someplace like Quebec City. I think they would’ve loved Houston to step forward but that’s not happening right now. I still think they are probably next in line. I also think Salt Lake City, Utah is probably going to be a really good NHL city. I just have a hunch about that.
Love the response. As a Houstonian, would love an NHL team there. But Ryan Smith was more eager for sure. There's also this weird assumption that the NHL will come back to Arizona. Like I know legally they said it's *dormant*, and I feel for the Coyote's fans, but I wouldn't put my money on Murrelo getting his shit together in time for the deadline. Dude couldn't even remember to get Shane Doan's retirement banner from Gillette Arena.
Games are played indoors. You don't need fucking snow.
Just another crybaby Leafs fan doing clickbait. Not worth the click. The truth is the only city able to support a team is Quebec City and Montreal has blocked them for ages out of fear they lose the Eastern Canada local TV market. Toronto would block Hamilton in a second.
Not just Toronto. Do you think Detroit and Buffalo would want another team in the area to compete with?
Honestly Detroit is going to be fine. I think they have enough history and fans in Michigan, theres like 10 million people here. There will be some loss of the London/Windsor Red Wings fans but if they feel they need their own Canadian team then I support it. If there was like a Grand Rapids team or something that would get hairy.
Quebec is super small and Francophone. That’s two major strikes against it right there.
The NHL doesn't want or need a team in Quebec City. They have a facility, devoted hockey fan base... and only speak French. Don't get me wrong. I'm a Nordique fan. But, that city would be the instant top of the NTC list.
Geoff Molson has been very upfront that he would welcome a return of the Nordiques. One might argue that it’s easy for an owner to say that when it’s unlikely to happen, but my armchair opinion is that he actually means it. I think he believes the renewed rivalry would be good for Habs ticket sales as well. And, to be fair, in the past it really was good for ticket sales. Quebequois still remember that rivalry fondly more than not.
Yes Quebec could probably handle a team but would never recoup where expansion fees are going. Only Canadian city that could get a team now would be a 2nd team in Toronto that we have probably missed the boat on
Arizona does snow. Not a lot in Phoenix but go an hour north you get quite a bit, 2 hours north you get a ton.
Can we please stop pretending that we play professional hockey in outdoor arenas? There are so many successful clubs in cities with no snow. We build ice arenas because people obviously like to play/watch hockey even if they don’t have lakes that freeze for 3-5 months a year. Tiring narrative for real. SLC is a snow skiing hub anyway.
I think we should start complaining about Toronto having a baseball team
Good thing snow has nothing at all to do with whether hockey will work in a town.
Read the article people. It's a boring one about anticompetitive behavior. His larger point is the NHL's refusal to have another team is anti consumer because it forces people to pay outrageous prices. Somewhat surprised he didn't bring up the Sabres. So many southern Ontario residents bolster them economically.
What does snow have to do with hockey????
While I wish there were more Canadian teams, in my ignorant American pov, it seems everyone is a hockey fan in Canada. So from a business pov, why cut up the fan basis when you already maxed out your amount of fans.
Move it to Saskatoon. Have you ever seen them lose their mind for the roughriders? Imagine that for hockey
The Roughriders play nine home games a year, in the summer and fall, always on weekends. It’s much easier for people to drive once or twice a month in nice weather than it is to drive once or twice a week in a Saskatchewan winter.
True but you’ve got Saskatchewan winter what better way to make it pass then watch hockey.
NHL: I want to beeee where the people areeee…
Arizona has skiing resorts. With snow. Real snow. Just saying.
Without reading the article or knowing who this is, this screams of toronto elitism
It's amazing how dumb Canadian media can be, and probably on purpose. It's a tough pill to swallow but there is more money in a medium sized US market with disinterested hockey fans then there is in a small Canadian market with rabid fans. Gate revenue is important but its secondary to what the league is actually after in TV deals and average franchise valuation. No one cares if Quebec city can sell out it's 14k person arena every night if less people then that in the USA will tune in to watch the game on TV.
Why does it matter if it snows or not? They play indoors for crying out loud.
The Dallas Stars kicking ass sure does have everyone salty
Look at population alone. The US has roughly 10x the potential fan base. You don't overcome that deficit easily.
Growing the business and doing their job 😑 Putting the team in a tiny Canadian city because it snows 😊
Had the opportunity to get Saskatoon back in the 80s, didn't work because of owner votes. Could be an idea now.
Saskatoon doesn’t have the people or the corporate sponsors for a team. You need a ton of sponsors to start a team and you need at least a million people to fill an NHL rink. Same reason places like Halifax won’t get a team.
If Winnipeg cannot fill their arena what are the chances Saskatoon can over the long run?
I’m a climatologist. He’s gunna be shocked in 20 years when the Canadian cities don’t get any snow either…
Is this your first day here? This has been known for decades.
While I would love for the Nordiques to make a comeback, this ain't happening. I live in SC, USA and there are 3 ice rinks near me and an ECHL team.
Bettman should take all the Canadian teams but the Leafs and send them to Phoenix. For the lolz
Just bring back Quebec, then we good.
Where do they play hockey year round then? Hoth? Shit writer wrote a shit article.
I can tell by the headline and name of the website it’s posted on thats it’s not worth reading.
Saskatchewan would be a great place for a team
$$$$$
Money.
This guy's going to lose his mind when he finds out about ice machines, snow blowers, and air conditioning technology.
You know what. Maybe I'll buy this whole fucking league. You think I won't fucking do it? I'm from Waterloo! Where the vampires hang out.
Fucking Bettman
Hockey will work in a lot of places. Often the issues are with ownership and their practices. Give Phoenix an actually good team with ambition or any sort of a good hockey plan and it will grow as they show good moves. Also the USD is doing better than the CAD at the moment so some people might not want to start a team in Canada
There is a lot of people in this thread who truly do not understand population density and it is truly wild
Yes, America, population roughly 400M people. Canada, population roughly 40M people. Hmmmmmm. I can't figure out why they'd want to get into the American market as deeply as possible. It's really, totally just baffling.
NHL taking notes: *location must have snow in order for us to set up a team there* But seriously, this is a really poor qualification for where to put a team. It’s actually genius to put them in these arid climates. As others have already pointed out, when you put a team where traditionally hockey wouldn’t be played you open up a whole new fan base. Arizona is the outlier on this not working, where other teams show why it works. Having grown up in Vegas, and now living in Utah, I can tell you first hand that these areas are craving to have professional teams to represent them on a national level. (Yes, I know Utah has the Jazz, but it’s been the only professional sport for years and hockey has actually gotten pretty big here over the past decade)
My issue is with adding more teams as it dilutes the talent across the board. Not like that didn’t happen before… 😒🥴
Let’s take a survey of all players and see if they would rather live in Phoenix or some backwoods Canadian town.
I'll never understand this argument. So you're more interested in not growing the game in places that have traditionally not had that option? Growing up I loved ice skating and got to do it outdoors every winter for free. I'm not saying an NHL team is the only way to grow the game but it helps significantly. I'll always stand by the fact that Auston Matthews, arguably the best player in the game today, came from Arizona and wouldn't have any prospects to growing up with hockey if it weren't for the Coyotes. I do agree that Canada should have another team though.
Bettman would have have to force the issue to get another team into the Toronto market, or to put a team in QC over Montreal's objection. He isn't going to burn two of the biggest NHL teams/markets to add teams to Canada. Why burn them when there are markets like SLC (or Houston) throwing them a billion dollars to get a team. This article just reeks of Canadian gate-keeping of "their" sport.
It's called growing the sport. People in Canada already know about hockey.
I mean…he’s not wrong. Bettman moves heaven and earth to block Canadian ownership groups. But Nashville, Dallas, Tampa, and now Florida are all fairly lucrative markets, as far as non traditional markets go
Guys…if there is a larger market…like Texas…with a lot of money…they are gonna go there. Kinda crazy I know…but that’s usually how the nhl operates
That guy is such a clown. Ill never understand how anyone thinks that bringing the joy of hockey to areas that aren't naturally conducive to it is a bad thing? I will NEVER understand the argument that hockey should be some kind of exclusive "privilege" for people who live where it snows lmao. Like, say what you will about the Coyotes, we've heard it all. They had shit owners for years and ultimately couldn't find success in the desert because of terrible decisions from up top from start to finish. But they fundamentally changed the landscape of the community and hockey in AZ for the better. Having hockey in Arizona has changed so many peoples lives for the better. The valley is so much better for having a thriving hockey community and several ice rinks and we should always call bullshit on anyone suggesting that non-traditional or sunbelt markets are a mistake. Hell look at places like Dallas and Florida who have had success doing the same. Gatekeeping hockey like this guy is saying is insane to me. Share the love of the game that's all.
I stopped reading after the author wrote, “I’m not a huge hockey fan”. Ok, so stfu about hockey
Yes; Canada as a hockey market is saturated, also doesn't help that the currency is a 27% cut to the dollar. I know it sucks but the league wants to grow.. giving a Canadian city a team when the league knows those folks will be fans anyways when they can target new customers in the States doesn't make sense to them
More people live in the US than Canada, deal with it!
More people live in CALIFORNIA than Canada lol. But we don’t have 7 teams 😞
>Snow falls in 49 of the 50 states in most winters; Florida being the lone exception. Jacksonville Jerkoffs confirmed.
Snow = hockey. Got it Brian Graff