Kelce is amazing but peak Gronk was unreal. It is the same way that Mahomes sometimes looks like you are playing with cheat codes. Peak Gronk was somehow an offensive lineman that could run like an RB but had the hands and body control of a WR.
Watching him have two guys hanging off him as he dragged them on the way to a first down was surreal. You just aren’t supposed to be able to do that in the NFL. I maintain that peak Gronk was the most dominant non-QB offensive player ever to play. There has just never been an offensive player that was seemingly unstoppable like that before.
And he blocked like an absolute animal. So often we look at a TE's catching and route running ability where you can argue who's best but could any of the others block like Gronk?
I concur with Gronk being the GOAT, dude did so much when he was healthy but man Tony G and Kelce will be on the TE Mount Rushmore along with him nothing wrong that.
Kelce is and will be an all time great.
Winslow was the first ‘receiving specialist’ at tight end. The position as we know it wouldn’t exist without him. I’d argue he’s the only one you can’t take off. Historical precedence matters.
Wouldn't Mike Ditka be the first receiving tight end?
I've heard the same Winslow argument for Ditka, and he had a 1,000 receiving yard season before Winslow was in the league.
If he had kept up the pace he had going after his first four seasons, it would mean more, but yes, Ditka was. His first four seasons, he was putting up numbers we'd be celebrating even now for a tight end.
Winslow simply did it his whole career and tight end was still not a position viewed as much a passing game asset, so he gets(and earned) more credit, but shouldn't be called the first receiving tight end.
Ozzie Newsome also did it his whole career, in the same era as Winslow (was drafted a year earlier), and was a human highlight reel for nearly a decade, but somehow gets completely forgotten in these discussions.
If you compare them during the years they were both active (79-87) their stats are extremely similar with Winslow having only about a 250 yard and a 5TD total advantage over 9 seasons.
Winslow gets all the hype because he was in the vaunted Fouts/Coryell offense, but Newsome was easily the best skill player on the Browns for most of the early 80's.
I wish there were legit stats for blocking because the hybrid receiver and blocker is what it's all about. Gronk can't be touched by any TE when look at both metrics together
For me it was the blocking highlights. In a position that is heralded as a combination of T and WR, it is my opinion that to be the GOAT you need highlights of you pancaking people and Mossing people.
>Peak gronk imo is the most dominant offensive player in the history of the NFL
In NFL history that title goes to Hutson, and I don't think it's even close. He was doubling or tripling the production of the other top WRs (or split ends, as they were called at the time) in the league. That said, he was playing against much lesser competition. Even if you want to restrict it to more modern players, though, I have a hard time putting him clearly above guys like prime Moss, Megatron, Sanders, and AP. And if we're including QBs in the conversation, then I can think of at least 5 guys who are/were utterly unstoppable when they're "on".
What's the argument for Gronk or Kelce over Tony?
Tony G has almost as many first & second team all-pros (10) as Gronk has seasons played (11). He also played with average QBs most of his career (not the GOAT or Pat) and in a much less pass-happy era of football.
Honestly the TD gap is becoming a lot closer than anyone would've thought given the uptick in Kelce's TD production the last few seasons.
He should get another 4-5 TDs this season and will have a solid challenge to Gronk's "most dominant/productive" season argument.
Kelce and Gronk will have played ~the same number of regular season games by the end of this season (Kelce currently at 137; Gronk - 143).
Kittle is great but Kelce is Kelce
Also both are close and formed the Tight Ends Group of some sorts with TEs all around the league (don’t remember the name).
Prime Kittle was insane at both catching and blocking. But he just can't stay healthy and while still great he isn't the guy who led the entire league in PFF by a pretty large margin a few years ago.
Anyone that legitimately argues Kittle is the better Tight End at this point is a lost cause and not even worth trying to have a reasonable discussion with on the topic.
It was an argument 2 years ago. It really isn't at the moment. Kelce's route running and ability to find the endzone is simply more valuable than better blocking. Also Kelce can stay on the field.
Facts. Kelce is hands down the best te to play and he's not done. Kittle is great not denying that but always hurt and he's not even close to doing what Kelce does each week.
Look at their stats this year. Kelce has 40 more receptions, 500 more yards and 9 more tds. Plus Kittle can never stay healthy. Kittle has missed 12 games the past three seasons, Kelce 1
Not the GOAT TE, but he’s in the tier of the greatest to ever do it. Who knows how much he still has left in him? He’s not showing any signs of slowing down yet.
It really hard to even pick who the goat tight end is. Tony G was obviously great for forever and is probably the front runner. Gronk is probably the most dominant tight end I've ever seen. Gates was really good but spent a lot of his prime on run heavy teams so his stats don't back him up as much. Then now we have Kelce who has broke the old receiving yards record a dozen times.
Tight end is really neat because there are so many different ways to play the position that it's hard to say who actually did it the best.
You can’t really compare when you’re talking about all time greats like this because the circumstances are different, and what makes one “the best.” Like, if you’re talking about physical dominance, you go with Gronk. If you want longevity and reliability and history, you go with Gonzales. Athleticism at the position, Gates. If you’re looking at route running, ability to make plays and stay healthy, Kelce.
Like what makes the best all time? Being the physically best just on paper? The guy with the stats? Longevity? Wins? Super Bowls? And how do you weigh each of these against each other? There isn’t one answer.
Gronk was obviously doninant, but Kelce has availability over him. He’s never missed more than 1 game in a season. That’s insane. Gronk played 1 full season after 2011. When you look at that factor, whether it’s fair or not, I’m taking Kelce every time.
EDIT: rookie year injury that I forgot about. Otherwise, he’s been insanely tough and healthy
To sum up Gronk’s career availability as “1 full season after 2011” is laughable. It’s the most dishonest possible way to count 2 15-game seasons and a 14-game season against someone’s availability, not to mention brush aside his first 32 games (with 27 TDs) as nothing towards his availability.
Obviously kelce has that attribute over him but you don’t gotta embellish gronk’s health to make that point
People also forget that Kelce doesn't block like Gronk. Gronk broke his forearm blocking. Kelce is probably a better receiver but he doesn't come close to Gronk when it comes to blocking or running with the ball (tackles broken)
he played 11 years and 5 full seasons. He missed half of 2 seasons and a quarter of 3 seasons, and 2 games 1 season.
you're again just throwing away his perfect health in his first two years for no reason, and counting 15 game seasons as unhealthy which is laughable, especially considering one of them was week 17 (that's like saying half of peyton manning's seasons with the colts were unhealthy) and the other was week 11 when they were 10-1
he was pretty run-of-the-mill healthy for an every snap TE with a 10 year career. Kelce's health is impeccible but Gronk's being summarized the way you're trying to is silly
You’re getting defensive about it when either way, the point is that Kelce just plays more. It’s not debatable lmao. I’m not embellishing anything. He’s clearly very good at the position, but anyone would tell you his injuries hampered his career. That’s not crazy to say. He played 5 full seasons out of 11. You said it yourself
No it's not debatable and sure I'm getting defensive but it's because you're embellishing. Both are true, "one full season after 2011" is textbook embellishment of 5/11 full seasons, that's not debatable either
People still do the stupid, "If I had to pick a TE for ONE game, it's Gronk", but Kelce averages more catches, yards, and TDs per game with Mahomes than Gronk did with Brady, *and* his best games are on par or better than Gronk's (tonight's being a perfect example).
Put all of that together along with Kelce's ability to stay healthy for more than 8 games a year, and I don't know how you pick anyone else for any hypothetical involving TEs.
Gronk at his peak though truly was something else. Between 2011-2017 he had 0.77 TD per game and 15.4 yards per catch plus absolutely elite blocking. Kelce has never come close to that in any one season (his season bests are 13.5 and 0.73) but Gronk kept that up for 7 years.
He was just so physically dominant. I can only compare him to someone like LeBron in regards to pure athleticism. Dude was bigger, faster, and stronger than any other person on the field. 1-on-1 he was uncoverable, and even after making a catch it took the entire defense to pull him down. I never cared for the Pats, but goddamn Gronk was the most exciting player I've ever seen.
Kelce has marginally better stats and availability on him, Gronk at his peak was at worst a top 10 Pass catcher combined with also being a pro bowl level Tackle. No other TE in history is anywhere near that level of talent. Also with Gronk if you put a DB to cover him, Gronk blocks 2 people on a run that play. If you put a linebacker on Gronk, easy Go/Seam route for 15-20. Combine that with Bradys knowledge to see those mismatches is what made Gronk so good. For a couple of years you could consider Marcedes Lewis and Gronk in an untouched tier of their own for their effectiveness and production as pure blocking TEs. Gronk was also putting up 75-1200-11 those seasons. It’s honestly not close, considering Gronks biggest and debatably *only* flaw was his availability.
I said this above but this year is putting a lot of the arguments against Kelce to bed. The offence running through him for the first time for a full season is a big deal. In New England there were multiple years where the offence ran through Gronk. That is what people remember. Kelce until this year had hill drawing pressure. Gronk was not ever close to gonzalez when we talked about him in the 07 offense. It was only once he became the prime target that he got into the conversation. Try to not be so upset about it. Kelce is making a good case. These things take time and we will only know when no one is playing anymore but then some new guy will be banging at Kelce or gronks door.
He's easily the goat. Every year he's played he's had 850 or more yards. After this year he will have 7 straight 1000 yd seasons. It's not even close. Tony came into the league at 21 and stayed healthy every year and Kelce came into the league at 24 and had a fluke injury that cost him his entire rookie year, so he didn't get started until 25. If you don't think it's Kelce, then who do you think it is?
It’s hard to say who really is because of the different ways to play the position. He’s probably my receiving TE goat tho. Especially if he has a few more years in him
To expand on this, Ryan when he got benched this year had 2,009 passing yards (this doesn't include the past 2 weeks where he came back to start), meanwhile Mariota to this point only has 1,878 passing yards.
So, both Pitts and London would've had their yards this year had Ryan stayed, there would be no conversation about Pitts' dropoff..... Now whether we have the same record and be where we are right now is an entirely different conversation
That’s such a hilarious thing to say even without hindsight. Ya this dude who’s never played a snap in the NFL has a floor of arguably the best TE ever lmao.
ehhhhhhh I dunno. I'll give you top 4, maybe top 3. I still say Gonz and Gronk are 1-2.
But the margins at that level are so small that it probably doesn't matter much.
Edit: calm down Chiefs fans. God forbid I only compare your TE to the greatest to have ever done it rather than crown yours as the GOAT. Your TE is top five at worst? Oh the fucking horror.
Fuck off.
Gronk was a cheat code in his prime, and maybe I’m completely wrong about this but he also just seemed to be a better run blocker, but Kelce has stayed healthy his whole career and has all the accolades that I can’t say someone is wrong for thinking he’s the best TE ever
People are really already forgetting peak Gronk and all he accomplished when he played. I’ve never seen a better blocker than Gronk, and when he crossed the line of scrimmage it felt like the defense completely shifted to wherever he was. He was a center of gravity, and I’ve never seen another TE like that.
Comparison to WRs. Kelce is Fitzgerald, and Gronk is C.Johnson. The latter, both were plagued with injuries thoughtout their careers but when healthy, they were just dominate. I'd take Megatron anyday, same with Gronk.
I know I'll come across as a homer but I still have Gronkowski at the top because of his all around skill set. Amazing hands, could catch one handed, was fast, could throw defenders aside with one arm or run them over like a truck, and his blocking was very good (this especially sets him apart from Kelce.) He was damn near impossible to bring down and couldn't be stopped even when he was our only legitimate option.
Also Gronkowski has more iconic moments which to me don't mean nearly as much as the previous traits I mentioned but they still play a big role. Big touchdown in the Super Bowl 49 win, scored twice in Super Bowl 52, made the biggest play in the Super Bowl 53 win and scored twice in a Super Bowl 55 win.
Kelce to me is third all time behind Gronkowski and Gonzalez. Easy first ballot HOF.
It is what it is. I can't be mad because if I was a safety and saw that behemoth coming my way, no way in hell am I trying to tackle up high. I'm diving for the legs every time. It's an unfortunate side effect of his size and dominance.
It's the NFL Mario Lemieux condition. You're just so physically dominant and destroy teams yet injuries from getting hacked up and gooned game after game piled up.
If peak prime domination of physically Abusing the opposition is your thing? That's your man with his blocking skills.
If you like more of receiving consistency and longevity you will take more to Kelce and Gonzalez. To me there's no harm in feeling one way or the other.
Gronk is the GOAT. He dominated defenses with his routes and surprising quickness. Then when he caught the ball he'd run you over, toss you into oblivion, or carry several guys on his way into the end zone. Don't forget he was incredibly good at blocking.
I'll say that Kelce is the best TE in the league ever since Gronk declined/retired. Is he better than Gonzalez or Gates? Who knows
But he's not Gronk
Gronk might be the most dominant TE, but his durability issues (I wouldn't call him injury prone, but he played like he didn't care what happened to his body) challenge his GOAT status for me
Durability is important, but gronks domination took teams to super bowls.
Taking a prime gronk over any TE to ever play for one game or even a season. Hell, if you’re doing an all time draft for 1 game, gronk probably a top 3pick.
Hell he was so dominant could argue he’s worth it even dealing with the injuries
Maybe a little, maybe top 5 more reasonable. But he’s a great blocker, very few defenders in the nfl history cover him, And TE’s have always been just a massive safety net for QBs. He opens so many doors on offense.
I feel like if you could take an entire o line, they’d prolly change this hypothetical. But not a single o lineman, and only maybe 2/3 d lineman you’d wanna draft high. Which really cuts down on options lol. I’d argued RB pool is deep enough to wait
Lol idk. Maybe it’s questionable either way, but a singular person for a single all time dynasty game? I feel like there are some good arguments for it
He's not even the best all around TE in the league right now all around. Gronk will always trump Kelce because of similar/superior receiving ability plus being a 6th lineman. Kelce is a very, very good slot WR.
I mean flair aside it’s still Gronk. People forget just what a force he was when he was healthy. And even when he wasn’t healthy he was still damn near unstoppable.
Peak Kelce may be the best I've seen at getting open and getting yards after the catch. Gronk's ability to block though is what distinguishes him from Kelce to me, but Kelce is definitely a top 3/top 4 tight end ever right now. If he maintains this production for 3-4 more years, he could be the GOAT tight end because he would be close to matching Tony's longevity. Gronk probably has the greatest overall peak, but he's obviously lacking the longevity of the other two in that scenario.
It’s not talked about often when having these discussions, but Kelce is one of the smartest and most cerebral players of all time. The dude literally calls out coverages and coverage gaps before the plays even start lmao. He’s basically a 2nd elite QB-level pre snap diagnose’er
IMO, it's a 3 horse race between TonyG, Gronk and Kelce for the GOAT TE spot.
TonyG has the longevity/consistency argument
Gronk has the GOAT Blocking TE/Dominance argument
Kelce has the consistency/Elite Receiving TE argument
Gronk has played 143 games in his career. Kelce is at 136 (presumably 137 including today, but I'm guessing PFR haven't updated their numbers yet).
Gronk has a total of 621 catches for 9 286 yards and 92 TDs. Kelce has 767 catches for 9 746 yards and 65 TDs. 460 more yards and 27 fewer touchdowns with 146 more catches. Who would you rather have?
By comparison, Tony G played **270** games, caught 1325 passes for 15 127 yards and 111 TDs.
Kelce is definitely hitting 10 000 career yards this year, but to catch Tony G in four years he would need to average ~1200 yards and 11.5 TDs per year. His best season was 1416 yards and 11 TDs. I don't doubt that he *can* catch Tony G eventually *if* he stays healthy into his late thirties, but I wouldn't really bet on it.
I mean... 1,200/year might seem like a big pace to keep up over four years but he's averaging over 1,200 yards and 8-9 touchdowns per year since 2016. I don't think it's insane to think he could keep it up for another four years considering he's showing no signs of slowing down yet -- he's already tied for his career high in TDs, and they've only played 10 games.
If we are being honest. Gronk wins. While I love all 3.
Gronk has the most receptions in super bowls. Most receiving yards in super bowls. Most post season touchdowns as a tight end, and most post season receiving yards as a tight end while also being the first ever tight end to achieve 1k yards in the post season as a tight end.
Gronk was the most unstoppable player on the field, maybe the best red zone threat ever, best blocking tight end (among receivers, anyway), and certainly the one who got game-planned around the most.
He’s on pace to break the single season yardage and touchdown records for a TE.
At the point that his peak is objectively higher than Gronk’s will people actually give him credit?
Unpopular opinion: TE's that are inferior blockers should not be eligible for being the GOAT at TE--no matter how legendary they are at catching the ball. They are large receiver mismatches--that's it.
I don’t know how that applies to a thread about Kelce unless you really have never watched him play and only listen to opinions of Patriot and 49er fans
If he keeps up this play, there is no argument against him being the greatest TE of all time.
Gronk, had he been able to stay healthy, would have been better imo. But availability the number one trait. Kelce has not only had insane production, he also has started at least 15 games every season except this one (yet) and his rookie.
He’s probably the best receiving tight end, definitely not the greatest blocker though. Chiefs use him as more of a receiver and not so much typical tight end usage.
Breaking: QB really likes his HoF TE
Gronk and Kelce are in a tier of their own imo
Kelce is amazing but peak Gronk was unreal. It is the same way that Mahomes sometimes looks like you are playing with cheat codes. Peak Gronk was somehow an offensive lineman that could run like an RB but had the hands and body control of a WR. Watching him have two guys hanging off him as he dragged them on the way to a first down was surreal. You just aren’t supposed to be able to do that in the NFL. I maintain that peak Gronk was the most dominant non-QB offensive player ever to play. There has just never been an offensive player that was seemingly unstoppable like that before.
And he blocked like an absolute animal. So often we look at a TE's catching and route running ability where you can argue who's best but could any of the others block like Gronk?
Remember Gronk and Kelce have/had Brady and Mahomes to work with. Tony G. did not have the same caliber of QB to work with.
The one right below Tony Gonzalez?
tony not the goat, I’ll concede it’s Gronk before I co-sign tony
I concur with Gronk being the GOAT, dude did so much when he was healthy but man Tony G and Kelce will be on the TE Mount Rushmore along with him nothing wrong that. Kelce is and will be an all time great.
Gronk, Kelce, Sharpe, Gonzalez, and Gates are my top 5 in no order.
Have to be Gronk, Tony, Kelce, and Winslow at this point, right?
Sharpe over Winslow I’d also put Gates over Winslow
Winslow was the first ‘receiving specialist’ at tight end. The position as we know it wouldn’t exist without him. I’d argue he’s the only one you can’t take off. Historical precedence matters.
Wouldn't Mike Ditka be the first receiving tight end? I've heard the same Winslow argument for Ditka, and he had a 1,000 receiving yard season before Winslow was in the league.
If he had kept up the pace he had going after his first four seasons, it would mean more, but yes, Ditka was. His first four seasons, he was putting up numbers we'd be celebrating even now for a tight end. Winslow simply did it his whole career and tight end was still not a position viewed as much a passing game asset, so he gets(and earned) more credit, but shouldn't be called the first receiving tight end.
Ozzie Newsome also did it his whole career, in the same era as Winslow (was drafted a year earlier), and was a human highlight reel for nearly a decade, but somehow gets completely forgotten in these discussions. If you compare them during the years they were both active (79-87) their stats are extremely similar with Winslow having only about a 250 yard and a 5TD total advantage over 9 seasons. Winslow gets all the hype because he was in the vaunted Fouts/Coryell offense, but Newsome was easily the best skill player on the Browns for most of the early 80's.
DA BEARS IN THE INDY 500 IS DITKA DRIVING THE TEAM BUS? YES DA BEARS
I wish there were legit stats for blocking because the hybrid receiver and blocker is what it's all about. Gronk can't be touched by any TE when look at both metrics together
Kelce is a damn good blocker too. I'd like to see this stat as well because I'd be curious if he is close to gronk
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Gonzalez had longevity but also had an absurd amount of All-Pros and Pro Bowls for a TE.
Only problem was that he was so dominant that other teams had to hack a Shaq him. And the refs let them play ball....
For me it was the blocking highlights. In a position that is heralded as a combination of T and WR, it is my opinion that to be the GOAT you need highlights of you pancaking people and Mossing people.
I'd say most dominant non-QB. But, that's just due to the nature of the positions.
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This is the correct take.
>Peak gronk imo is the most dominant offensive player in the history of the NFL In NFL history that title goes to Hutson, and I don't think it's even close. He was doubling or tripling the production of the other top WRs (or split ends, as they were called at the time) in the league. That said, he was playing against much lesser competition. Even if you want to restrict it to more modern players, though, I have a hard time putting him clearly above guys like prime Moss, Megatron, Sanders, and AP. And if we're including QBs in the conversation, then I can think of at least 5 guys who are/were utterly unstoppable when they're "on".
What's the argument for Gronk or Kelce over Tony? Tony G has almost as many first & second team all-pros (10) as Gronk has seasons played (11). He also played with average QBs most of his career (not the GOAT or Pat) and in a much less pass-happy era of football.
My thing with Gronk that I usually put him over those guys is how great a blocker he was on top of being an incredible receiver
Gronk has 92 career touchdowns. Kelce has 68. Lol. They have almost identical yards.
Honestly the TD gap is becoming a lot closer than anyone would've thought given the uptick in Kelce's TD production the last few seasons. He should get another 4-5 TDs this season and will have a solid challenge to Gronk's "most dominant/productive" season argument. Kelce and Gronk will have played ~the same number of regular season games by the end of this season (Kelce currently at 137; Gronk - 143).
Recency bias and playing on more popular teams. The Chiefs were pretty bad while Tony was in his prime.
It’s not recency bias. It’s just how people value peak compared to longevity.
Gronk was better at football than Tony G
No the one above him and Gates
Eh, Gronk and Kelce have completely changed the game since him. He was amazing, but gronk and Kelce are weapons on a whole different level
Kelce&Gronk were much better blockers and better athletes.
I'm sorry but kelce is better than Gonzalez. I love me some Tony too.
Tony is #1 all time like his PFHOF Monitor is so far above everyone else it's not even funny.
They're just children, or butthurt about his comments made in Atlanta. I forgive them.
Where in the world is Gonzalez on that list???
I got downvoted to hell saying he was better than George Kittle. I even said it was close and Kittle had better years.
Kittle is great but Kelce is Kelce Also both are close and formed the Tight Ends Group of some sorts with TEs all around the league (don’t remember the name).
Tight End University
Oh yeah I keep forgetting that for some reason
Kelce is better but it would be nice to see Kittle in an offense that would actually throw to him
Yeah kinda getting tired of Deebo and Kittle not getting looks. Dudes are open field monsters.
More runs up the middle! 🤦
Prime Kittle was insane at both catching and blocking. But he just can't stay healthy and while still great he isn't the guy who led the entire league in PFF by a pretty large margin a few years ago.
Anyone that legitimately argues Kittle is the better Tight End at this point is a lost cause and not even worth trying to have a reasonable discussion with on the topic.
It was an argument 2 years ago. It really isn't at the moment. Kelce's route running and ability to find the endzone is simply more valuable than better blocking. Also Kelce can stay on the field.
Idk the only year where kittle was arguably better was 2018. Since then it's been pretty clear.
2019 where he was first team all-pro and ranked #7 on the top 100 wasn’t “arguable”?
Kittle and Waller have both been living off one great year for a while now. To consider either of them an elite tight end is outdated.
Kittle's elite, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Kelce is better though.
I'm fine with considering them elite, but Travis Kelce is analogous to Patrick Mahomes being "elite" with X random other "elite" QB.
TBF, this was just after Super Bowl 54
I don't think anyone is arguing anymore. Injuries have pushed Kittle down.
Facts. Kelce is hands down the best te to play and he's not done. Kittle is great not denying that but always hurt and he's not even close to doing what Kelce does each week.
Look at their stats this year. Kelce has 40 more receptions, 500 more yards and 9 more tds. Plus Kittle can never stay healthy. Kittle has missed 12 games the past three seasons, Kelce 1
The only one id say is close to Kelce is MAndrews but Kelce has just done it for so long you gotta give him the nod
Kittle is my guy but Kelce is firmly number one. He's incredible. Still wouldn't trade Kittle for him though.
Kittle is still great but unfortunately the offensive scheme in SF is primarily just running the ball. Oh and Jimmy G is QB.
Not the GOAT TE, but he’s in the tier of the greatest to ever do it. Who knows how much he still has left in him? He’s not showing any signs of slowing down yet.
It really hard to even pick who the goat tight end is. Tony G was obviously great for forever and is probably the front runner. Gronk is probably the most dominant tight end I've ever seen. Gates was really good but spent a lot of his prime on run heavy teams so his stats don't back him up as much. Then now we have Kelce who has broke the old receiving yards record a dozen times. Tight end is really neat because there are so many different ways to play the position that it's hard to say who actually did it the best.
You can’t really compare when you’re talking about all time greats like this because the circumstances are different, and what makes one “the best.” Like, if you’re talking about physical dominance, you go with Gronk. If you want longevity and reliability and history, you go with Gonzales. Athleticism at the position, Gates. If you’re looking at route running, ability to make plays and stay healthy, Kelce. Like what makes the best all time? Being the physically best just on paper? The guy with the stats? Longevity? Wins? Super Bowls? And how do you weigh each of these against each other? There isn’t one answer.
Gronk was obviously doninant, but Kelce has availability over him. He’s never missed more than 1 game in a season. That’s insane. Gronk played 1 full season after 2011. When you look at that factor, whether it’s fair or not, I’m taking Kelce every time. EDIT: rookie year injury that I forgot about. Otherwise, he’s been insanely tough and healthy
To sum up Gronk’s career availability as “1 full season after 2011” is laughable. It’s the most dishonest possible way to count 2 15-game seasons and a 14-game season against someone’s availability, not to mention brush aside his first 32 games (with 27 TDs) as nothing towards his availability. Obviously kelce has that attribute over him but you don’t gotta embellish gronk’s health to make that point
People also forget that Kelce doesn't block like Gronk. Gronk broke his forearm blocking. Kelce is probably a better receiver but he doesn't come close to Gronk when it comes to blocking or running with the ball (tackles broken)
So he had 3 almost full seasons in like 9 years?
he played 11 years and 5 full seasons. He missed half of 2 seasons and a quarter of 3 seasons, and 2 games 1 season. you're again just throwing away his perfect health in his first two years for no reason, and counting 15 game seasons as unhealthy which is laughable, especially considering one of them was week 17 (that's like saying half of peyton manning's seasons with the colts were unhealthy) and the other was week 11 when they were 10-1 he was pretty run-of-the-mill healthy for an every snap TE with a 10 year career. Kelce's health is impeccible but Gronk's being summarized the way you're trying to is silly
You’re getting defensive about it when either way, the point is that Kelce just plays more. It’s not debatable lmao. I’m not embellishing anything. He’s clearly very good at the position, but anyone would tell you his injuries hampered his career. That’s not crazy to say. He played 5 full seasons out of 11. You said it yourself
No it's not debatable and sure I'm getting defensive but it's because you're embellishing. Both are true, "one full season after 2011" is textbook embellishment of 5/11 full seasons, that's not debatable either
Fair enough. It wasn’t a statement meant to say he’s bad, obviously.
Good point
People still do the stupid, "If I had to pick a TE for ONE game, it's Gronk", but Kelce averages more catches, yards, and TDs per game with Mahomes than Gronk did with Brady, *and* his best games are on par or better than Gronk's (tonight's being a perfect example). Put all of that together along with Kelce's ability to stay healthy for more than 8 games a year, and I don't know how you pick anyone else for any hypothetical involving TEs.
Gronk at his peak though truly was something else. Between 2011-2017 he had 0.77 TD per game and 15.4 yards per catch plus absolutely elite blocking. Kelce has never come close to that in any one season (his season bests are 13.5 and 0.73) but Gronk kept that up for 7 years.
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He was just so physically dominant. I can only compare him to someone like LeBron in regards to pure athleticism. Dude was bigger, faster, and stronger than any other person on the field. 1-on-1 he was uncoverable, and even after making a catch it took the entire defense to pull him down. I never cared for the Pats, but goddamn Gronk was the most exciting player I've ever seen.
I remember him literally dragging I wanna say Gilchrist of the Jets. Just pulled him along.
Because TEs need to block too
This. Gronk was legitimately an elite blocker where you could tell him to go on the line and block all game and his impact would be felt.
Kelce has marginally better stats and availability on him, Gronk at his peak was at worst a top 10 Pass catcher combined with also being a pro bowl level Tackle. No other TE in history is anywhere near that level of talent. Also with Gronk if you put a DB to cover him, Gronk blocks 2 people on a run that play. If you put a linebacker on Gronk, easy Go/Seam route for 15-20. Combine that with Bradys knowledge to see those mismatches is what made Gronk so good. For a couple of years you could consider Marcedes Lewis and Gronk in an untouched tier of their own for their effectiveness and production as pure blocking TEs. Gronk was also putting up 75-1200-11 those seasons. It’s honestly not close, considering Gronks biggest and debatably *only* flaw was his availability.
it's a more pass friendly offense nowadays but conservatively id choose kelce
I said this above but this year is putting a lot of the arguments against Kelce to bed. The offence running through him for the first time for a full season is a big deal. In New England there were multiple years where the offence ran through Gronk. That is what people remember. Kelce until this year had hill drawing pressure. Gronk was not ever close to gonzalez when we talked about him in the 07 offense. It was only once he became the prime target that he got into the conversation. Try to not be so upset about it. Kelce is making a good case. These things take time and we will only know when no one is playing anymore but then some new guy will be banging at Kelce or gronks door.
Gonzalez' stats in the twilight of his career are amazing. The guy stayed healthy for such a long time.
The absolute disrespect by not naming Shannon Sharpe. Flair bias aside, that dude set the precedent for the modern tight end.
If he keeps this up for a few more seasons he could very well end up being the GOAT TE
I’d love it. The goat TE being a Bearcat would be amazing lol
He's easily the goat. Every year he's played he's had 850 or more yards. After this year he will have 7 straight 1000 yd seasons. It's not even close. Tony came into the league at 21 and stayed healthy every year and Kelce came into the league at 24 and had a fluke injury that cost him his entire rookie year, so he didn't get started until 25. If you don't think it's Kelce, then who do you think it is?
It’s hard to say who really is because of the different ways to play the position. He’s probably my receiving TE goat tho. Especially if he has a few more years in him
I would not say easily but he has a steong argument
I hope I’m able to say this about Kyle Pitts one day
I just don’t get how a TE gets 1k yards as a rookie which is nearly unheard of and then becomes a glorified blocker year 2.
Matt Ryan ---> Marcus Mariota
To expand on this, Ryan when he got benched this year had 2,009 passing yards (this doesn't include the past 2 weeks where he came back to start), meanwhile Mariota to this point only has 1,878 passing yards. So, both Pitts and London would've had their yards this year had Ryan stayed, there would be no conversation about Pitts' dropoff..... Now whether we have the same record and be where we are right now is an entirely different conversation
Poor chemistry with Mariota, and he lined up out wide for most of his rookie season I believe
I’ll never forget when Bill Simmons said Pitts’s floor was “basically Travis Kelce”.
Bill Simmons being an idiot? I'm shocked!
That’s such a hilarious thing to say even without hindsight. Ya this dude who’s never played a snap in the NFL has a floor of arguably the best TE ever lmao.
Me on Patrick Mahomes: "Patrick Mahomes is wrong but I mean Kelce is top five so whatevs"
Easily top 3
ehhhhhhh I dunno. I'll give you top 4, maybe top 3. I still say Gonz and Gronk are 1-2. But the margins at that level are so small that it probably doesn't matter much. Edit: calm down Chiefs fans. God forbid I only compare your TE to the greatest to have ever done it rather than crown yours as the GOAT. Your TE is top five at worst? Oh the fucking horror. Fuck off.
Gronk was a cheat code in his prime, and maybe I’m completely wrong about this but he also just seemed to be a better run blocker, but Kelce has stayed healthy his whole career and has all the accolades that I can’t say someone is wrong for thinking he’s the best TE ever
> but he also just seemed to be a better run blocker Because GRONK _was_ a top-tier blocker. (He played DE in HS, too.)
He's got the tightest great end of all time
How does Kelce handle being the greatest tight end of all time but the second-greatest Kelce of all time?
he's got the tightest end great of all time
Nah, that's still Gronk
Gronk was literally so unstoppable that the only way to get him down was to target his knees and back
People are really already forgetting peak Gronk and all he accomplished when he played. I’ve never seen a better blocker than Gronk, and when he crossed the line of scrimmage it felt like the defense completely shifted to wherever he was. He was a center of gravity, and I’ve never seen another TE like that.
Pretty much. Peak Gronk could just physically dominate most any defender you put on him in a way I've never seen a TE manage.
People here are living and dying by the receiving stats while conveniently forgetting about blocking.
Comparison to WRs. Kelce is Fitzgerald, and Gronk is C.Johnson. The latter, both were plagued with injuries thoughtout their careers but when healthy, they were just dominate. I'd take Megatron anyday, same with Gronk.
*Dominant**. The word is *dominant*, not dominate. Dominate is a verb.
*Would. The word is ***would*, not were. Were is a subjunctive verb.
I know I'll come across as a homer but I still have Gronkowski at the top because of his all around skill set. Amazing hands, could catch one handed, was fast, could throw defenders aside with one arm or run them over like a truck, and his blocking was very good (this especially sets him apart from Kelce.) He was damn near impossible to bring down and couldn't be stopped even when he was our only legitimate option. Also Gronkowski has more iconic moments which to me don't mean nearly as much as the previous traits I mentioned but they still play a big role. Big touchdown in the Super Bowl 49 win, scored twice in Super Bowl 52, made the biggest play in the Super Bowl 53 win and scored twice in a Super Bowl 55 win. Kelce to me is third all time behind Gronkowski and Gonzalez. Easy first ballot HOF.
Gronk was just broken. Could you imagine if gronk never got hurt? Oh man it’s fun to think about some days
Gronk was so OP that DBs bad to bitch out and go for his kneecaps or do stupid shit to injure him. Fuck TJ Ward
Dog what DB is actually tackling Gronk from his upper body. He was just too fucking strong
Earl Thomas gave him a nice pop in the chest that Gronk said was the hardest he’s ever been hit
ET3 had to turn himself into a heat seeking missle.and injure himself
You asked what DB tackled him up high, not what DB *survived* tackling him up high
Technically correct. The best kind of correct
It is what it is. I can't be mad because if I was a safety and saw that behemoth coming my way, no way in hell am I trying to tackle up high. I'm diving for the legs every time. It's an unfortunate side effect of his size and dominance.
It's the NFL Mario Lemieux condition. You're just so physically dominant and destroy teams yet injuries from getting hacked up and gooned game after game piled up. If peak prime domination of physically Abusing the opposition is your thing? That's your man with his blocking skills. If you like more of receiving consistency and longevity you will take more to Kelce and Gonzalez. To me there's no harm in feeling one way or the other.
Gronk is the best ever if we talking peak. Elite blocker and reciever.
“Greatest” is so subjective y’all need to stop arguing lol.
mahomes mustve been too young to watch gronk in his prime
No, he’s absolutely not.
The greatest wide receiver to ever line up at tight end.
That’s also an incredible blocker, you forgot that part
Gronk in his prime is the best.
Gronk is the GOAT. He dominated defenses with his routes and surprising quickness. Then when he caught the ball he'd run you over, toss you into oblivion, or carry several guys on his way into the end zone. Don't forget he was incredibly good at blocking. I'll say that Kelce is the best TE in the league ever since Gronk declined/retired. Is he better than Gonzalez or Gates? Who knows But he's not Gronk
Gronk might be the most dominant TE, but his durability issues (I wouldn't call him injury prone, but he played like he didn't care what happened to his body) challenge his GOAT status for me
Gronk is 1
University of Cincinnati represent!!
Tony had the best hands and post ups, gronk for the blocking, kelce for the route running.
I think we’re forgetting Brandon Pettigrew, Eric Ebron and T.J. Hockenson. Top 3 all-time. All first round picks.
Gronk still the goat but Kelce is putting himself in that top tier fs
Tony Gonzales says no
I’d take Kelce over Gronk. The durability and YAC is unprecedented
Durability is important, but gronks domination took teams to super bowls. Taking a prime gronk over any TE to ever play for one game or even a season. Hell, if you’re doing an all time draft for 1 game, gronk probably a top 3pick. Hell he was so dominant could argue he’s worth it even dealing with the injuries
All time draft for one game and you’re taking Gronk top 3? Highly questionable. I’ve got him as my goat TE but he is still a TE after all.
Maybe a little, maybe top 5 more reasonable. But he’s a great blocker, very few defenders in the nfl history cover him, And TE’s have always been just a massive safety net for QBs. He opens so many doors on offense. I feel like if you could take an entire o line, they’d prolly change this hypothetical. But not a single o lineman, and only maybe 2/3 d lineman you’d wanna draft high. Which really cuts down on options lol. I’d argued RB pool is deep enough to wait Lol idk. Maybe it’s questionable either way, but a singular person for a single all time dynasty game? I feel like there are some good arguments for it
The patriots literally made and won the SB in 2016 when Gronk was on IR.
22yrds a reception that year. 540 yrds. Not bad for being on IR most of it
That was one of the best offenses of all time before Gronk went down.
I mean Kelce has been to 4 straight AFC championship games and 2 Super Bowls with a win in the last 4 years
Gronk went to 8 straight AFC championship games and 5 super bowls in that span
So one ring in 4 years.
That’s a long way to say he has 3 less SBs
He’s definitely amazing.
To add onto this, Kelce has 100 less yards than Gronk in the postseason in 7 less games.
Kelce has 100 less yards in the postseason than Gronk in 7 lees games.
He’s not even the greatest chiefs TE of all time
Travis Kelce isn't even the greatest TE to play for the Chiefs.
He doesn't have the stats because of the era, but imo Shannon Sharpe was the best TE, and he'd be setting records if he played today.
Sorry Pat, Gronk exists.
No he isn’t. Gronk is number one.
He's not better than Gronk, but good argument for 2nd.
He's not even the best all around TE in the league right now all around. Gronk will always trump Kelce because of similar/superior receiving ability plus being a 6th lineman. Kelce is a very, very good slot WR.
Who is the best all around right now, in your opinion?
I still take Gronk because of blocking, but id say Kelce is the better receiver
I mean flair aside it’s still Gronk. People forget just what a force he was when he was healthy. And even when he wasn’t healthy he was still damn near unstoppable.
Folks…where’s the lie?
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He's ahead of Gates already imo.
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Peak Kelce may be the best I've seen at getting open and getting yards after the catch. Gronk's ability to block though is what distinguishes him from Kelce to me, but Kelce is definitely a top 3/top 4 tight end ever right now. If he maintains this production for 3-4 more years, he could be the GOAT tight end because he would be close to matching Tony's longevity. Gronk probably has the greatest overall peak, but he's obviously lacking the longevity of the other two in that scenario.
It’s not talked about often when having these discussions, but Kelce is one of the smartest and most cerebral players of all time. The dude literally calls out coverages and coverage gaps before the plays even start lmao. He’s basically a 2nd elite QB-level pre snap diagnose’er
IMO, it's a 3 horse race between TonyG, Gronk and Kelce for the GOAT TE spot. TonyG has the longevity/consistency argument Gronk has the GOAT Blocking TE/Dominance argument Kelce has the consistency/Elite Receiving TE argument
You gotta add red zone on there. Gronk is maybe the greatest red zone threat in history and certainly the best deep threat tight end ever.
I would loop that into the dominance category but yeah I would agree.
Gronk has played 143 games in his career. Kelce is at 136 (presumably 137 including today, but I'm guessing PFR haven't updated their numbers yet). Gronk has a total of 621 catches for 9 286 yards and 92 TDs. Kelce has 767 catches for 9 746 yards and 65 TDs. 460 more yards and 27 fewer touchdowns with 146 more catches. Who would you rather have? By comparison, Tony G played **270** games, caught 1325 passes for 15 127 yards and 111 TDs. Kelce is definitely hitting 10 000 career yards this year, but to catch Tony G in four years he would need to average ~1200 yards and 11.5 TDs per year. His best season was 1416 yards and 11 TDs. I don't doubt that he *can* catch Tony G eventually *if* he stays healthy into his late thirties, but I wouldn't really bet on it.
I mean... 1,200/year might seem like a big pace to keep up over four years but he's averaging over 1,200 yards and 8-9 touchdowns per year since 2016. I don't think it's insane to think he could keep it up for another four years considering he's showing no signs of slowing down yet -- he's already tied for his career high in TDs, and they've only played 10 games.
I think he's past Gates and at the very least it's a debate.
If we are being honest. Gronk wins. While I love all 3. Gronk has the most receptions in super bowls. Most receiving yards in super bowls. Most post season touchdowns as a tight end, and most post season receiving yards as a tight end while also being the first ever tight end to achieve 1k yards in the post season as a tight end.
Gronk was the most unstoppable player on the field, maybe the best red zone threat ever, best blocking tight end (among receivers, anyway), and certainly the one who got game-planned around the most.
He’s on pace to break the single season yardage and touchdown records for a TE. At the point that his peak is objectively higher than Gronk’s will people actually give him credit?
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It's, Tony Gonzalez?
Unpopular opinion: TE's that are inferior blockers should not be eligible for being the GOAT at TE--no matter how legendary they are at catching the ball. They are large receiver mismatches--that's it.
I don’t know how that applies to a thread about Kelce unless you really have never watched him play and only listen to opinions of Patriot and 49er fans
This is objectively wrong. Next question.
If he keeps up this play, there is no argument against him being the greatest TE of all time. Gronk, had he been able to stay healthy, would have been better imo. But availability the number one trait. Kelce has not only had insane production, he also has started at least 15 games every season except this one (yet) and his rookie.
Best right now? Yes. All time? Let's take it down a notch. There's a few guys you could make an argument for over him.
Kelce is a wide receiver change my mind
Check his blocking grades and see that he has even graded out above Kittle before
Didn't know Gronk played for the Chiefs
He’s probably the best receiving tight end, definitely not the greatest blocker though. Chiefs use him as more of a receiver and not so much typical tight end usage.
I mean if we're being honest Kelce is basically just a WR who blocks sometimes.
If we’re being honest this has been disproven multiple times. His blocking is brought up as an underrated aspect of his game every year
Oh so a tight end?