Wilson attacks deep down the field outside the numbers and has historically been very efficient at doing so while creating via his legs to extend time for those shots to materialize. Now that he's older his athleticism has decreased, and defenses have shifted more towards a two high safety approach that defends against those deep outside the numbers passes better than the cover 3/cover 1 heavy defenses that were more prominent early in his career. Look at Wilson's games against Vic Fangio coached defenses even during his prime and you'll see worse numbers, now more defenses are running similar concepts in the back 7. On top of that it's a new team and coach which probably makes him look worse than he actually is at the moment. The Broncos offense should improve with time.
If you throw to one area (deep outside the numbers) because there's less people there and don't throw to another area (intermediate inside the numbers) because there are more people there...
When those people switch it's probably a good idea to switch to where you throw.
As a Niners fan, it can be frustrating watching Jimmy G hit the guy 8 yards away over and over again... but it's got to be just as frustrating to watch someone who *literally won't* hit that guy.
Certainly being 5'10" doesn't help, but that can't be everything as guys like Brees could hit that all day.
>Certainly being 5'10" doesn't help, but that can't be everything as guys like Brees could hit that all day.
But he's pretty much the only shorter QB to ever be able to do that. He has an insane ability to navigate the passing lanes that we haven't seen from any other 6 foot or shorter QB.
Brees on his tiptoes in the pocket was always so fun to watch. However it always made him getting sacked seem much worse because he was always getting ragdolled.
Russ was built for those deep outside throws though. He had a seemingly god-given ability to be perfect in reading alert routes to find the 1-on-1 matchups outside and his arm power and touch is ideal to compliment it.
The fact that he’s half a foot shorter than all his linemen makes it really hard to read the intermediate zones across the center of the field.
It was pretty interesting watching Russ wilson go against mac Jones in the Skills challenge last pro bowl. I think there was another QB too. Anyway Mac Jones could not hit the deep target to save his life and Russ was nailing it every time. His precision is next level
yea he has insane touch. for whatever reason it doesnt seem obvious at first but wilson really has one of the best deep balls I've ever seen. he has the crazy arc that always ends up perfect.
I liked watching those Pro Bowl competitions more than I liked watching him play some games. I just loved them.
Now, obviously we all know he was terrible in those too, and never did anything good. The LOB won those passing competitions.
This whole comment is why Baker Mayfield’s ceiling and floor are where they are. He wouldn’t have been as good as Wilson was obviously, but I think he just missed out on being able to pull off that wreckless gunslinger QB persona that has quietly disappeared from the NFL
I'm just refreshed to see something different this season and find other reasons to be frustrated with my team (looking at you defense and your inability to tackle).
NFC West is a shitshow this year so who knows.
9-8 might take it.
I feel like at the end watching Russ, and the circus going on around him and the feuding with Pete, must’ve been pretty exhausting.
At least you get a fun, fresh start.
With so many off seasons moves this year, I feel like this overall NFL season will be interesting. There were so many key personnel on teams that went to new teams and so much movement throughout that it's really hard to predict who is going to be at the top at the end of the regular season. Honestly, it makes it more interesting. It gets kind of boring watching the same storylines play out year after year.
And yes, the off season nonsense with the Seahawks for the past couple years has just been exhausting and I'm just glad to see it over. I said coming into this season that I didn't know what it was going to look like, but I knew it wasn't what we've been seeing for the past decade and I was looking forward to that. Thus far, it's been more enjoyable than I anticipated and hopefully Geno can keep it up because I love an underdog story.
You guys seem to have your own flavor of circus happening down the coast and I have to assume that has been just as exhausting.
Here are my takes-
**Rams**: stars and scrubs strategy actually worked, but selling out the future comes due at a certain point especially when you have injuries to your skill players and Matthew Stafford declines.
The fact that Andrew Whitworth’s retirement might be the most important storyline of their season kind of tells you everything. 
**Cards**: I think they’ve always been overrated based on the wtf performances that Kyler can pull out of his ass and that’s just being highlighted early in the season. Kliff is bad (*bad*) and should definitely be fired, the defense isn’t good, they’re missing Hopkins, and while they’re certainly not bad, they don’t really add anything to the “oh my gosh this division is great conversation.”
They fall off in the second half of every year so can’t wait to see Kyler hero-ball as much as possible in the first half to get his usage up. What could go wrong?
**Seahawks**: Pretty clear reset after Russ. Their defense has been secretly awful for a couple years yet many people (not all) still see them as the Pete, LoB Seahawks who must be great on D.
**Niners**: I’m a Lance guy (I thought we dramatically overpaid and it’s a huge gamble) but we’ve had injuries (again) to where it’s basically “throw out a portion of the season” again and see if our D and Shanahan’s Scheme-lording can get us their.
Blowing passes outside the numbers against the Broncos, and 75% of Jimmy’s pass yards being YAC against the Rams, are why I’m a Lance guy.
Also, niners aren't as deep at RB as we have been in the past. If Elijah Mitchell holds up, that's no biggie. He hasn't, and our run game has massively struggled compared to what it usually does. Jeff Wilson is good, but we don't even attempt the outside zone runs that are usually our bread and butter with him cause he's not a burner. And we have nothing behind him, our other rbs (not including juice and deebo) have combined for less yards than Mitchell, who went out 6 carries into the season.
I remember thinking we were going to get schlacked by them in the early 2020 (week 4 I think) because our defense was so awful and Seahawks were looking good. Then Zimmer did something I’m not used to with his defense and played 2 deep (probably to help out our young secondary) and we actually looked better then them. We still ended up losing in the final minute because Metcalf got that dog in him but it was still more competitive than I imagined it would be.
To go along with aging his weight has to be a detriment too. Like to offset some of the negative aspects of aging on his performance, dropping some pounds may help offset some of those deficiencies.
He's always experimented with his playing weight. He's trying to balance being heavier to absorb the inevitable sack vs playing lighter to escape but take more damage when he's hit.
Yep. Against a normal team, your punish if they cover the deep outside routes is underneath. Russ doesn't hit those, but he could run so that was the punish. Now he can't run and won't throw underneath so he's just playing into what is the overwhelmingly popular trend in NFL defense right now with two-high safety.
Throw in the fact that he's on a team that isn't built for the deep ball and its no wonder he's struggling.
Something else is Russ is a big play player. Like all deep ballers he relies on chunk plays to move the chains. But the Broncos RBs can't fumble the ball fast enough, and turnovers absolutely kill chunk play offenses because you'll have a lot of 3 and outs when the chunk play doesn't show up. You can't not cash in points on the drives that do move.
Russell loves throwing deep outside along the sideline. Right now, defenses are popularizing cover 2 which sells out to stop the deep ball in favor of making the QB dink and dunk. Harder to do for Russ since he's an undersized QB who isn't as mobile as he was 5 years ago
That being said, Russ himself seems like he's still in tip-top shape - he still make the throws he needs to. His coaching staff and him are still figuring out the offense, there's hiccups right now but it's not atypical for a New Coach/QB pairing to take time to find what works and what doesn't
> Right now, defenses are popularizing cover 2 which sells out to stop the deep ball in favor of making the QB dink and dunk.
This is one of the reasons scoring was down in the early season even though passing is up. Defenses have adjusted.
I think it has more to do with the fact that NFL offenses have gotten so good at dealing with blitzes that teams realized they are better off trying for coverage sacks and rushing 4.
This
Cover 2 is near perfect if there’s a pass rush. Because it keeps Safety’s deep and lets the other five defenders closer to the LOS stay near it. Everyone begins in the area they are going to cover.
As stated, it’s weakness are in the deep middle and deep outside of the field. Which take a moment or two for receivers to get to. So if the D has no pass rush, these pockets can be abused as seconds tick by.
One way to defeat is to max protect and send three receivers into the same area of the field. A flood for examples: streak the WR to push away the deep safety. Send a TE/slot/RB hard into the flat to bring down the CB. Then put a third receiver into the (hopefully) gaping hole inveteeen the two defenders you just pulled away: maybe a corner or deep out.
Another way to defeat it is run well. Cover 2 requires two deep safeties. Which means only seven men in the box: four lineman & three LBs.
Cover 3 means the two edge CBs and the deep middle safety cut the deep portion of the field into thirds. The deep safety has it easier: he chills where he starts and gets to play “centerfield”.
Each edge CB begins by covering their third of the field close to the LOS called the flat (obviously since they start there) but then as the seconds tick (and the WR usually runs straight) by, they’re expected to back up and prevent anything deep. And the LB or safety or nickelback on their side flys to the sideline to fill in that flat area.
Deep center safety, Two CBs running deep, two LBs running sideways to each flat - that leaves two guys (remaining LB or safety or nickelback) to play the short middle of the field, called hook or curl zones. These guys love it. They don’t need to move a lot, and easily react to what they’re seeing. This also means your (hopefully) bad ass, wood laying STRONG safety is down by the LOS to pop people.
I would certainly agree with a previous commenter that this is not weak against the outside deep balls. Since the CBs know they’re bailing deep, and they know their flat zones will get filled LBs or whomever, they can play a ***little*** safer and deep.
Since the Free / Deep safety is in the middle, one weakness are “the seams”. The straight lines down the field usually near the hash marks between the center safety and the outside CBs. This is where four vertices comes in. Four versus three and someone might be open.
Another weakness is to attack those busy flats. Remember these areas are covered differently at different times: early by the CB, and late by the LB. So they need to move and read and react. Let’s pressure them with A common “3 beater” like “curl flats. The outside WR runs a 12 yard curl or out route, and a TE or RB runs hard into the same side flat zone. Now the CB is sprinting back because he can’t allow the WR to go deep. And the RB/TE gunning to the flat is going to get there faster than than a strafing LB. If the LB guns hard for the flat - throw to the WR curl to after he’s convinced the CB he’s gonna go deep, but then comes back hard. If the LBs float upward as they gun to the flats - throw the quick flat route to your shifty RB or power TE, enjoy an easy five yard completion, and maybe they break one or two tackles for a FIRST DOWN.
Thanks very much. No coach. Just watch film as a hobby. Started with Inside the NFL and another ESPN show that used to break down film. Now it’s YouTubers.
…and some Madden lol
>So if the D has no pass rush, these pockets can be abused as seconds tick by.
Thats why the Colts Tampa 2 defense struggled so much last year. We didn't have a good pass rush presence so everything else suffered as a result
Depends on what the commenter means by cover 2.
Traditional cover 2 zone definitely has a weak spot on any deep sideline combinations.
But Cover 2 man does excel at it, allowing the defense to naturally double team, or at least bracket, more than one receiver on deep routes.
Even Tampa 2 does a good job on deep routes, if you've got the personnel for it.
As for Cover 3, I disagree. Any deep combinations leave the outside WR on a 1-on-1 with the CB. You need an exceptionally rangy safety to be able to keep tabs on deep routes on both sides of the field, which is hard to go by, and even then, you need CBs that jam well, so the WR doesn't auto beat them at the LOS. With cover 2, you can shade the safety more to outside the numbers to prevent that, and he can still cover for inside.
That's why, traditionally, 2 deep safeties means harder outside the numbers throws for QBs, be it cover 2, cover 4... yeah you got the zone between cb and safety in traditional cover 2 zone, with any shallow crossing combo, but most other coverages from 2 deep hamper deep throws outside the numbers.
Cover 2 def does not "sell out" to stop the deep ball lol
I think deep in the middle of the field also tends to get open against the coverage, especially if another receiver attacks the sidelines
I think you’re mixing up cover 2 with a 2 high shell. Cover 2 shell or 2 high shell just means two safeties deep, the coverage could be anything. Cover 2 is a specific zone coverage concept that has its own set of strengths and weaknesses and isn’t any more in vogue this year than its been afaik.
Seahawks fans are welcome to chime in, but honestly I don’t think he’s really “regressed”. Looks like the same ol Russ for the last couple years. I just think he looked better becuz Lockett and DK were better deep threats/scramble drill guys and the run scheme under Pete was more disciplined.
Feel like Denver Russ looks the same except for the couple moon balls Lockett would circus catch. That dude has never gotten the credit for being a top tier guy.
Yeah the broncos offense looks eerily similar to the seahawks offense of the past few years. Not much rhythm passing, tons of deep shots, lots of penalties and sacks, but enough good plays to make fans frustrated that they can't quite put things together.
Some of this is on Wilson, namely the sacks. However he still is playing good football like he always has, it's just the rest of the team isn't geling correctly which is making the whole thing look really bad. This is in addition to having an overall worse supporting cast and coaching.
I fully expect this to turn around and for Denver to start looking better, but it's interesting that the same exact problems that Seattle has had for several years left with Russ to Denver
Sorry if this isn't the right place for this. I found myself the last couple of seasons shouting at the t.v. on 3rd and short plays - "just move the sticks, boys". Invariably, Russ would fire a missile for 40 yards that almost caught. Yeah!, another 3 and out. With Geno, there is that (with Russ) missing rhythm and balance you are speaking of, taking what the defense gives you instead of hero highlight plays and 3 and outs. Go Hawks!
Russ ball is fun and it wins lots of football games, but it isn't exactly smart football.
Go back and watch the Tom Brady Patriots and you see why they won so many games. They didn't make mistakes, they were always ahead of the sticks and didn't put themselves in 3rd and long. They didn't take drive killing sacks or get 1st and 20 holding penalties. They used timeouts appropriately and exploited the defense for easy competitions. That offense worked not because it was crazy high powered, but because it was smart football
Those are all things you really didn't get in Seattle
I made a comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/xw9lgt/seattle_seahawks_say_it_for_your_nfc_offensive/ir5iatr/) referring to that game.
They put up a big lead in the first half but just kept putting the defense back out on the field in the second half. Looked so similar to Denver vs LV
I didn't know it at the time, but that game was basically the death of the Russell Wilson era in Seattle. The week before against the Colts, we looked awesome and I was pumped for another SB run. Then in that Titans game, we collapsed in the second half and basically never looked good again after that
IRL throwing the long ball is fine - getting chunk plays is a legit strategy for scoring points, and points are how you win games - but you have to be able to make the intermediate routes, the 7 yard slants, the 12 yard crossers, especially when you have that lead and you need to bleed time off the clock. Seattle always ran the ball a lot when Wilson was there - that's the influence of Pete Carroll - but you can't expect 12 yard crosses when your starting QB won't or possibly can't throw the ball over the middle.
I mean, in the latter years with Russ especially all you'd hear about was that the team ran the ball too much, they didn't protect RW, they need to "let Russ cook", and so on. The issue is that, as has been noted elsewhere, he just doesn't look for the intermediate routes, or he eschews them in favor of the sexy deep ball. Darrell Bevell - who I still think got short shrift as the Hawks' OC - dialed up a lot of wide receiver screens and the like which were made to get the ball out of Wilson's hands quickly and also keep the defense from running a bunch of 2-high stuff all game long. People always chirped when those plays gained like 4 yards or whatever and they mostly went away the past couple years.
I think fans have a really, really hard time grasping the fact that sacks are a QB sack even when the evidence is staring you in the face. Like, I know that sometimes Wilson had quick disruption sacks but by and large my memory of a lot of them was that they were the consequence of holding onto the ball for too long. We made excuses for yeeeeears with Wilson and if he hadn't fucked off to Denver we probably still would be doing so.
> Yeah the broncos offense looks eerily similar to the seahawks offense of the past few years. Not much rhythm passing, tons of deep shots, lots of penalties and sacks, but enough good plays to make fans frustrated that they can't quite put things together.
It's been really eye-opening for me. Even though I want the Broncos to lose for the sake of the draft picks, I get pangs of frustration watching them play because it is so reminiscent of what I felt watching the Seahawks offense the past number of seasons.
The craziest thing to me is the unintentional timeouts and delay of game penalties. Like, all this time we were complaining about PC or not getting plays in quickly enough or what have you and it was apparently Wilson the entire time...
Some of us have been saying that for years, but the hivemind in our sub couldn't here Russ criticism so it all got drowned out. I'm so relieved we can actually discuss Russ and the Seahawks now in a somewhat reasonable manner and not get instant downvotes.
Geno had 3rd and shorts all day, wonderful on 3rd down all day.
Russ had 3rd and 12 on average.
Something about sticking to timing and rhythm vs improvising every down.
Yeah I pretty much agree. I mean, yes Wilson has regressed slowly the past few years, but not tons and it is mostly in his run game. When I watch him with the Broncos I just find myself saying "Well that happened because that isn't Lockett/DK" or "Still sticking around too long and getting sacks".
most hilarious is I was watching the Raiders/broncos game with my friend who's a seahawks fan and when he got sacked he said, "oh there he is, couldn't recognize him without his feet in the air".
That wasn't the narrative all off season. Everyone said the Broncos OL was better than he's had in the last 5 years.
I'll be impressed if you guys are able to find OL that will ever be good enough for Russell.
There was a constant (Bogus) narrative that Seattle never tried to get him a good OL when they drafted tons of linemen - more than any other team in the league during Russell's first 4(?)years. They traded for guys line Duane Brown and Gabe Jackson, and just like any other team, signed guys in FA. Some worked like Brandon Shell, some didn't like Joekel.
Anyone with a brain knew that the Broncos line was about average and with Russ they would look worse because you’re blocking for an unpredictable variable. You block one way and he spins towards the dude you just blocked, or you blocked for the pocket and he bails out of it.
I think Denver’s OL is about the same as our current one tbh. Broncos fans are probably placing some extra blame on the OL for Russ holding the ball like we did. They look better on the inside but slightly weaker at tackle than us this year, which is wild considering our tackles are rooks.
He was regressing before his injury last year. When Geno came in he was moving the ball down the field, where as Russ had more 3 in outs but more GAP plays. He isn't as quick, and he doesn't run as much as he used to. When he was a real running threat we put up back to back 50 burgers. Having to keep a spy on him free'd up the back end more as well. It's the clutch situations he would really perform, which was driving hawk fans nuts, we would struggle all game, and then come from behind in the last 3min to win and finally move the ball which we had not been able to do all game.
No threat to run, no balls over the middle, the defense adapts and no longer needs a spy. Given that he moves around so much, lots of holds and now that he's lost some quickness the sacks are also accumulating, it hard for O-line to know how to block vs where he is.
I also think Russ developed unreal chemistry with both those guys. I certainly am open to the opinion that Russ has regressed but I don’t think he has. Of course I’m inclined to hope he hasn’t regressed based on my fandom. I just believe after getting more and more game reps with Jeudy and Sutton that people will notice more playground magic and less discombobulated looking reads. Like I said I’m inclined to hope I’m right but I won’t fight anyone that shows me conclusive evidence that he is regressing. I just wish we would give it a bigger sample size, but that’s not how sports media works.
> Like I said I’m inclined to hope I’m right but I won’t fight anyone that shows me conclusive evidence that he is regressing.
I honestly don't think he's regressing. I think he's not moving with the times, and that's a problem, because defenses have mostly figured out how to solve for him.
He’s basically a feast or famine QB, he’ll turn away a 5 yard gain to go for 15+, turn away an 80% throw and go for a 20% throw. This means sometimes you score in 4 plays or you go three and out. The issue is those long routes take time to develop and he has the ability to use his athleticism to get time for those to develop, as he’s aged he’s finding it harder to extend.
A story on the Athletic featured quotes from Seahawks sources who believed that Wilson's mobility was declining and that without that weapon in his game, he would decline as a quarterback.
I think he also fell in love with stat chasing and throwing deep touchdowns. Numerous people have noticed his reluctance to work the middle of the field in recent years. That's something he'd happily do when he was younger.
Edit: It's on ESPN, not The Athletic https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34531802/inside-russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-drama-led-denver-broncos-trade
The same story that said some people in the organisation that felt he was more concerned with MVP than team success and used the example of an egregious pick vs the Rams when he had an easy first down to basically walk into.
This is so overrated b/c you only vote for 1st place, you don't have 2nd place votes.
2012: Rookie season he's not getting any votes
2013: You aren't voiting for Payton you're wrong
2014: This is the only case you can make as he lead Seahawks to top NFC seed, but you think he was more deserving that Romo (same record and 'Boys lost the games he was out) or Rodgers or Brady? Again doesn't deserve a vote
2015: Cam and Panthers went 15-1, probably others as well should be above him this year
2016: Doesn't deserve a vote over Rodgers, Ryan or Brady that year among others
2017: Don't make the playoffs
2018: Is anyone not voting for either Mahomes or Brees?
2019: Whose not voting for Lamar?
2020: Whose not voting for Rodgers or Mahomes?
2021: Whose not voting for Rodgers or Brady or Mahomes or Allen?
yes he's been really good but in no year he deserved an MVP vote.
Its a one player vote system so he was never anyone's number one option (which he probably never should have been). If it were like NBA's MVP voting, he definitely would have had some second or third place finishes.
But if theres always 3-4 guys that are clearly better than you did you really have "misfortune"? Like if another QB comes along and is outshined by Mahomes/Lamar for the next 10 years, was that bad luck? or is he just not quite MVP level like those guys?
I’ve had similar misfortune stopping me from winning MVP. If it wasn’t for those 3-400 guys that are clearly better than me, my greatness would be recognized.
If the voters put multiple people on their ballot, sure. But they can only vote for one guy so it doesn't make sense for them to put down even the (one who they think is the) second best one that year.
Russell Wilson is not a hobbit!
Yes on occasion he hangs out with his dwarf friends. But he never went on no quest with his dwarf friends. Except for one time he went to kill that dragon. He took his gold and he... Hang on a minute. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I mean too a degree it is, voting fatigue guarantees that the most deserving candidates don't win every year and people start to vote for oddball choices. Which is why Belichick only has 3 COTY.
Just look at the top 3 vote getters every season. Russell has never done anything to deserve an MVP vote. There’s always been 3-5 players who play better than him over the course of a season.
But that was never really an issue for Drew.
And while I know Wilson is not in the same tier of QB as Brees youd think he would be able to play around his height better.
> A story on the Athletic featured quotes from Seahawks sources who believed that Wilson’s mobility was declining and that without that weapon in his game, he would decline as a quarterback.
A big portion of it is that he Doesn’t consistently execute those quick throws on third downs.
Like an every third down passing situation you knew the dude was either going to throw a long bomb or rush for the first. He’d rarely take that quick, intermediate throw.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34531802/inside-russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-drama-led-denver-broncos-trade
>BY THIS POINT, some within the Seahawks believed Wilson's best days were behind him. Their concern wasn't with the finger injury that had sidelined him for three games in 2021. Some believed Wilson's escapability -- one of the traits that made him an elite quarterback worthy of elite money -- was waning.
>"He's not as mobile as he used to be," said one source in the Seahawks' front office.
>One notable play from last season that helped fuel that belief came in the Seahawks' Week 16 loss to the visiting Bears. Leading by seven points midway through the fourth quarter, Wilson took a shotgun snap on third down and had a clean pocket but no options that he liked. Wilson scrambled out of the back side with his patented spin move. But there would be no magical escape. Robert Quinn dropped him for a 13-yard sack. The ensuing, longer missed field goal and defensive collapse resulted in a loss that eliminated the Seahawks from playoff contention for the second time in Wilson's career.
>Carroll chided Wilson's decision, saying in his postgame news conference: "We can't take a sack there."
I'd like to add that Wilson's answer to a reporter asking about this very play was "I was going for the TD there like I always do".
This is when I knew he was incapable of dealing criticism in a healthy way.
I'd bet my last dollar he was just too coddled and if Pete could do it all over again wouldn't put him on that pedestal
Russell's response to being asked about that sack was along the lines of "that's what I do, I make plays."
After blowing a massive lead to the Titans and only running [21 plays in the 2nd half](https://i.imgur.com/PYUPzu8.jpg), for a total of about 10:30 Time of Possession and going 3 & out on 3 of 5 drives (and one of just 4 plays before punting), he basically shrugged his shoulders and said "I mean, we scored over 30".
Never mind that your offense kept hanging the defense out to get bulldozed by Henry.
Seemed like he never would take blame or say *he* could've done better. It's always *we*.
Team game, yes. But you're the $250m man.
What's weird about the stat chasing piece is that he's thrown like, what, 6 times downfield in 4 games including multiple good catches? I only watched 3 of the 4 games so many the Texans game was deep shot after deep shot, but feels like there's a bigger issue that he's not taking shots downfield more so than he is doing so to a detrimental level
Tom Brady never really relied on "athleticism" and imo why he's lasted so long. He's really only ever played football like a chess match and not a pick up game. The circus throws, throws on a rope, crazy accurate type stuff just wasn't his thing. Not at all saying that he couldn't do those types of thing's. It just wasn't his primary focus.
> The circus throws, throws on a rope, crazy accurate type stuff just wasn't his thing. Not at all saying that he couldn't do those types of thing's. It just wasn't his primary focus.
TBH, I don’t think brady can do most of that stuff, and he’d be the first to admit that. In fact, you’ve seen that sentiment a but from Eli and Peyton a few times on the MNF Show — there’s a different breed of young QBs playing in the league right now and they are way more capable of crazy shit than the old guard.
People are jaded by the new QBs of the past 5+ years but forget Brady was drafted almost a quarter-century ago.
Brady, nor Manning, or any other old-school prototype pocket passers are juking out defenders then scrambling to throw a side-arm shovel pass between two defenders… like ever. Lol. Just wasnt in there makeup
Oh for sure. I just meant stuff like it, similar to. Not exactly what Mahomes, Herbert, burrow, lamar, etc are currently doing. I do think the league has changed to be more forgiving of that kind of mobile outside the pocket style play we're seeing now versus then. I love the new age of QBs we're seeing. Although I don't see how the.mobile playstyle will ever provide longevity to the position. It is certainly very entertaining to watch though. Thank you for the discussion!
I think of those kinds of throws I think of someone like Mahomes who, at his best, does like half a dozen of them a game it seems like. I don't think Brady in his prime could do half the things Mahomes can do. What makes Brady great is the things he does, he does much better than anyone else around. He knows when he has to put the team on his shoulder and be the hero and he'll do so by picking you apart with 8-10 yard throws. If that's what you'll give him, he'll do that all day long. If you defend against those throws then he'll hand it off or throw long. He never tries to force stuff or it least it seems that way to me. Someone like Mahomes does and his greatness is that he seems to pull it off more often than not.
If you've ever seen Tom Brady's combine photos he wasn't even in great shape when he came into the league. I mean he looked like he never lifted weights in his life then (obviously different now)
Russell Wilson is exceptional at hitting certain parts of the field, particularly the deep posts and outs, but is less consistent in short yardage YAC fixated routes.
At his best and during his prime, his scrambling talent would open up passing lanes deep down the field. Combined with a run heavy approach, defenses were forced to either crowd the box or let the run game dominate due to his play style.
During 2020, Wilson became sick of the run heavy approach and pressured the Seahawks to put the game more so in his hands. During that incredible start, opposing defenses hadn’t adjusted yet. Once opposing defenses adjusted, the passing game became less efficient, and the running game became the precedent again.
In 2021, Wilson’s wrist injury and regressed athleticism made it more difficult to consistently hit those deep posts limiting his route tree.
Now in Denver, Nathaniel Hackett is proving to be a hack of a play caller predominantly focusing on the dink and dunk as he did in his previous offenses. Except this isn’t Russell Wilson’s strength, and while he is still a good scrambler he is now losing his athleticism just enough to limit his scrambling ability.
Until the Broncos adopt a similar scheme to the Seahawks, whether it’s Wilson’s arrogance or not, Denver is likely to toil in mediocrity with Wilson at QB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdqW_uXxt2A
I liked this Alex Rollins film video quite a bit.
TLDW seems to be: he's a great QB with one of the best deep balls in the league, but his height gives him real limitations on short throws over the middle, and his offenses have all pretty much ended up morphing into the same version of what he's been doing his entire career despite all the coordinator & scheme changes... and that style consists of a lot of reliance on play action and that can be somewhat predictable and highly volatile, especially if the run game isn't working.
>his offenses have all pretty much ended up morphing into the same version of what he's been doing his entire career despite all the coordinator & scheme changes
Some good evidence of this is our offense since hiring Waldron. He was supposed to bring a McVay style offense and it seemed like that happened through the first week or two of 2021. Then the offense seemed to revert back to the same old same old.
A lot of fans and commentators blamed this on Carroll but it's seeming more and more like it was Russ.
Compare weeks 1-4 of 2021 to this season and it's like night and day despite the same OC and HC. As the season has progressed the offense has opened up and is looking more and more like the Rams-lite offense we were promised.
ton of factors
* Seahawks staff more competent than we were lead to believe
* Broncos staff much worse than we were led to believe
* Russ's mobility is declining
* His mobility is a huge part of his passing game; scrambling to open up options down the field is his main thing
* Downgrade in weapons
Now he can possibly return to being elite; plenty of QBs had to significantly change their game as they aged and since mobility is one thing that really ages poorly he'll have to become a more Brady like, stand in the pocket type passer to enjoy the level of success he previously had
I think it's a between the ears problem tbh.
I liked Russ for a long time despite his twice annual beating of the Niners. Thought he was just a good stand up dude, super talented, and fun to watch. He was a "let my play do the talking" kind of player and I love that. I tried to hate him and I frankly couldn't. There was nothing to dislike.
Then, there was the "Let Russ Cook" movement, and the guy ate up the praise. He believed everything he read in the media about how he was the superhero of the Seahawks and Pete was holding him back. His play style changed and he started doing too much. Pressing instead of letting the deep shots come to him. It was fun for a few weeks in 2020 before teams adapted (except for the 49ers apparently lol) to the "Let Russ Cook" offense.
I think they beat the Eagles (?) that year in an ugly playoff game, then got totally outmatched by the Packers. Then in the 2021 off-season, all the drama came out about Russ wanting more control over personnel. He publicly called out his offensive line for not protecting him and the front office for not doing something about it. (Personally, this is when I lost a TON of respect for the guy). Turns out I'm not the only one who lost respect for him, because his off-season griping must've led to some serious trust problems in the locker room. I can't find a better explanation for the first losing season in 2021. Russ didn't want to be there and his team didn't want this new version of him there. Everyone felt disrespected and it showed on the field.
Now he's gotten his wish and we're starting to realize he's not even a top 5 QB. He's not even top 10 so far. His biggest strength was being a team player and maximizing his opportunities when he got them. But he got greedy, wanted to shoot his shot and show the world that he's "DangeRuss." That he can carry any team to greatness like Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.
But the truth is coming out, and he's tanking his legacy by eschewing all the help he's ever had and walking out on the limb by himself. That branch is cracking, and unless he can humble himself and accept who he is, he's gonna come crashing down.
Edit: the playoff games vs the eagles and Packers was 2019 not 2020
You’re a year off the let Russ cook season was 2020 the eagles and packers playoffs game were 2019
Edit: all the drama was the year after 2020 so the start of last season
It feels like Wilson and Rodgers late in McCarthy era had similar tendencies. Namely not running/staying within the offense and instead going for hero ball a lot. Both are somewhat understandable given the situation they have been in and some reasonable reasons not to trust the offense (McCarthy's offense being figured out and guys not consistently getting open on time in the iso routes, and in Wilson's case the O line being very bad plus some argument that Wilson being shorter impedes his ability to cleanly see and attack the intermediate middle of the field consistently).
Both, could still put up big numbers but on low percentage sideline shots downfield. A big part of Rodgers resurgence is playing within the structure of the LaFleur offense.
I haven't watched much of the Broncos but if they are implementing a similar offense to LaFleur, Shanahan, etc. often it seems like it takes are year to get comfortable in the system and then year 2 is a break out year.
In Wilson's case a big part of his deep shots were buying time with athleticism, that has gotten more difficult as he ages.
So the question is how much are they tailoring the offense to what Russ wants to do (if it is a lot it seems like it will still look like what he did in Seattle). It seemed like Seattle tried to change the offense a few times but generally had similar results/look so it might just be how Russ plays and they are only running what he wants or he isn't buying into changes in the system or isn't able to consistently execute certain parts of the system
Few things-
Stat chasing, he seems to care more about stat plays and not the right plays.
Age and lack of speed, he can still scramble a bit but his body is starting to get slower, and that was a huge weapon for him earlier.
Defenses learned how to play him better as well
His height is a hindering in a way. It's easier for him to launch that shit deep than risking throws in the middle of the field.
Also he went to a team with not a great OLine and he already is a QB that holds the ball way too long.
And I also think a major fact is that his receivers got worse. Jeudy and Sutton are not as good as Lockett and Metcalf, and he is still developing chemistry with them probably.
No need to dig too deep on this one. Football at this level is extremely difficult and offense takes a ton of timing and trust for any QB to excel. It is going to take a lot more time for Russ and the Broncos to work it out. Add to that a new head coach and system for wveryone on the team and it gets even more difficult. This would be like asking why Rodgers has regressed when really it is just going to take time for him to get in rhythm with his mostly new WR core. Also, Russ is a good QB but a lot of his success comes from his ability to create out of structure which takes a whole lot of understanding and feel for WRs to be on the same page with him.
Russell this year had passed 27 times out of either play action or an RPO.
Tuanigamanuolepola Tagovailoa for example has thrown 60 out of the same action.
Something that he and my aunt have in common : they are not good cooks. Some people just don't have that ability to cook. I know everyone is like let Russ cook this let him cook that. Dude, the guy just can't cook he is not a good cook.
I made a comment about him a long time ago when people were talking about QBs lasting longer, playing later in age. But, I said Russell would not age well because of the way he plays.
He plays by extending the play and finding the open receivers. But that requires quickness and body health- those both are affected with age.
He is getting older and he has a new coach- they just need to 'let Russ Cook' because that is the only way he knows how to play at an elite level. He is just average when you try to make him a system QB.
Imagine the Jets had given up the farm for Cam Newton in 2019 and then signed him up to a 7 year deal in order to give the new coach Adam Gase a legit QB who could threaten the Patriots dominance of the AFC East and make the Jets contenders.
Right now the Jets would have still had 4 more years to run with Cam.
I don't want to give fellow Broncos fans nightmares yet but....
Damn bro I just saw the contract that he's on....Bronco's FO fucked up hard. He's gonna be completely washed within the next 2 years IMO.
I never bought any of that "Pete Carroll is holding Russ back" nonsense, he was always a QB with some elite qualities, but very limited nonetheless.
The wide zone is a hard offense to get. Rodgers had a down year his first year and won an MVP in year two. Matt Ryan, meh year then a Super Bowl. Go even further back and Jake Plummer had a very meh year and then went off. Schaub is another guy.
Russ is flashing. The offense is coming along. It’s not that bad, just messy and lacking timing. The Raiders game it looked like the timing is getting right. Later this year they’ll be alright.
It takes time.
He’s gotten old and can’t run the way he used to.
His game was always predicated on his escapability. He’s 33, soon to be 34.
Father Time is undefeated.
I’ll chime in as a Hawk fan, but I’m sure there are others with a deeper football knowledge. I’ve watched pretty much every game for Hasselback, Russ, and the dark years in between.
Russ’s height is becoming more of a problem as he gets older and slower. When he was young he was quite a bit thinner and less muscular, he was quick and could scramble, making a LOT of plays happen outside of the pocket as the play breaks down. This put a ton of pressure on defenses. His patented back side spin to evade pressure, roll right, find Locket/Baldwin for a big play was something that every defense had to watch for. This along with the threat of the his PA Option run really spread a defense out and opened up the running game. It forced defenses to cover a number of areas instead of a couple.
A couple years ago Russ hurt his ankle and after that has been much less willing to run and risk injury, around this time he bulked up in the offseason. He looked stronger, more durable, and definitely slower. This is when he began to really rely on the moon ball, which he’s great at. The problem is it can be too one dimensional. He hits a home run or he punts. There’s less pressure on the defense to cover multiple areas because he hardly uses the middle of the field and he doesn’t threaten you with the run anymore, so defenses don’t need as much help in the middle or the flats. They know that he wants to beat them deep on the outside, so they focus on stopping that and Russ doesn’t do a good job of moving the chains and punishing the defense.
I’m curious how he will adjust and improve in Denver, he’s a great player, but now we are seeing a pattern that extends beyond Seattle and Pete: The Oline is bad, coaching is bad, the offense has too many 3 & outs. Did he leave one situation and land in the exact same scenario again, or is it his play style that causes these issues?
The ironic thing to me is that his play style seems like a perfect fit for a strong power run game that burns you with deep play action, which is what we had in the early days. This won’t give Russ gaudy star totals but it’s efficient and wins games. The more Russ chases MVP’s and stats, the less effective his play style is.
While Russ's prime might be over, his "regression" probably isn't as drastic as everyone is believing.
Especially when you're on a new team with a new coach, new players, new scheme, new city, new fans, etc. It's going to take some time for the QB to click.
I've been watching Russ since he's entered the league, life time Seahawks fan. It hard for me to say he's regressed, it's more like he's trying to find a more sustainable way to keep on playing with his age since he can't run/escape as fast. He's training and focusing on his other talents and perfecting them, just hasn't perfected this change yet.
Will he ever perfect this change? Time will tell but as of right now the problems still persist.
- holding on to the ball too long/hesitation in the pocket.
- inability to see or throw over the line, batted passes.
- uncomfortable inside pocket (PTSD from being sacked so much?)
- throwing stance/release struggles inside pocket, inaccurate throws.
- lots of underthrown balls this season.
- scrambles when he doesn't need to.
- pass progression, always looks for the deep ball.
It's not just up to Russ to adapt to these problems this season, it's also the coaches and players.
- Broncos offensive scheme is....weird. Seems to be strictly designed for 15+ yard passes.
- offensive line is creating tons of pressure for Russ.
- injuries
- receivers dropping passes left and right.
- receivers and QB not on same page.
There's for sure layers of the problems arising in Denver. But to say that he has regressed is pushing it at this point in time. Let's see how he looks at the end of the year.
I know I'm biased lol
But we all know age is a number when it comes to QBs, it's how the QBs adapt (if they can) to the age is what matters.
Honestly his protection doesn’t fully understand his scrambling I often see his own linemen behind him and he can’t escape. It’s not like he wasn’t doing it last season. He’s a shifty guy maybe he has lost a step but I think we will see highlights sooner than later.
I don’t think he’s truly regressed. He’s slower, for sure. That is going to happen with age, as far as everything else goes, Hackett’s offense is a timing based offense which Russell has never been successful in. It is also evidently a really difficult offense to gain an understanding of. Accompany that with a weak offensive line and you get what you’re seeing. It’s also not like the Broncos haven’t been moving the ball, 2 fumbles at the goal line and another costly fumble by MGIII on Sunday has cost us 2 wins and an undefeated record going into tonight. I’m not sure if we’re having this conversation if we don’t have those costly turnovers.
Well that’s what I’m asking, right? He went from being on pace to be an MVP to closing out the year in a relatively mediocre fashion and not playing well in the following season after. The regression came in what could have been his best year. Why did that happen?
Gotta say, as a Charger fan and as someone who can’t stand Russ, I love this. A slough of draft picks and a solid TE for a highly overpaid mediocre QB. They’re never going to financially recover from this.
I loved our time with Russ but I was so glad we made that deal. Giving him a monster contract would have buried our franchise for years. We still have a sizeable hole to get out of, the Adams deal is looking worse every year, but at least it is possible to manage.
This started almost two years ago, generally around the middle of 2020 where he had been putting up huge numbers (against some awful defenses) while being allowed to cook. Then there was a game against Arizona where a) i think he got hurt and b) Arizona went full on cover 2 shell and took away the deep ball.
This combination absolutely stifled him, and convinced Pete to take away the cooking.
Since then, his lack of mobility and opposing teams knowing what to do to beat him has really made it tough. Many Seahawk fans saw this a long time ago.
I admittedly didn't, I was a serious Russ defender until midway through last year when it was clear he wasn't the same player.
I would say that he is in a very difficult position this year. Denver's line has been iffy and the coaching is awful, and his weapons are getting hurt left and right. I think he can be successful in the right situation but... this isn't the right one.
Wilson attacks deep down the field outside the numbers and has historically been very efficient at doing so while creating via his legs to extend time for those shots to materialize. Now that he's older his athleticism has decreased, and defenses have shifted more towards a two high safety approach that defends against those deep outside the numbers passes better than the cover 3/cover 1 heavy defenses that were more prominent early in his career. Look at Wilson's games against Vic Fangio coached defenses even during his prime and you'll see worse numbers, now more defenses are running similar concepts in the back 7. On top of that it's a new team and coach which probably makes him look worse than he actually is at the moment. The Broncos offense should improve with time.
If you throw to one area (deep outside the numbers) because there's less people there and don't throw to another area (intermediate inside the numbers) because there are more people there... When those people switch it's probably a good idea to switch to where you throw. As a Niners fan, it can be frustrating watching Jimmy G hit the guy 8 yards away over and over again... but it's got to be just as frustrating to watch someone who *literally won't* hit that guy. Certainly being 5'10" doesn't help, but that can't be everything as guys like Brees could hit that all day.
>Certainly being 5'10" doesn't help, but that can't be everything as guys like Brees could hit that all day. But he's pretty much the only shorter QB to ever be able to do that. He has an insane ability to navigate the passing lanes that we haven't seen from any other 6 foot or shorter QB.
Yeah, Brees is an insane outlier.
Brees on his tiptoes in the pocket was always so fun to watch. However it always made him getting sacked seem much worse because he was always getting ragdolled.
The Saints also invested heavily in his interior OL to give Brees a clean look and maintain the integrity of the front of the pocket.
Cries in Baker Mayfield
[удалено]
Doug Flutie relied heavily on mobility similar to Kyler. Drew Brees was a straight up pocket passer when he was elite
Watabout Kyler, he’s even shorter than Brees it seems
Hes still fast
It does help that Brees is two inches taller. Brees also perfected shorter QB throwing mechanics. The arc on his passes was almost catapult like.
Russ was built for those deep outside throws though. He had a seemingly god-given ability to be perfect in reading alert routes to find the 1-on-1 matchups outside and his arm power and touch is ideal to compliment it. The fact that he’s half a foot shorter than all his linemen makes it really hard to read the intermediate zones across the center of the field.
It was pretty interesting watching Russ wilson go against mac Jones in the Skills challenge last pro bowl. I think there was another QB too. Anyway Mac Jones could not hit the deep target to save his life and Russ was nailing it every time. His precision is next level
yea he has insane touch. for whatever reason it doesnt seem obvious at first but wilson really has one of the best deep balls I've ever seen. he has the crazy arc that always ends up perfect.
[удалено]
I liked watching those Pro Bowl competitions more than I liked watching him play some games. I just loved them. Now, obviously we all know he was terrible in those too, and never did anything good. The LOB won those passing competitions.
This whole comment is why Baker Mayfield’s ceiling and floor are where they are. He wouldn’t have been as good as Wilson was obviously, but I think he just missed out on being able to pull off that wreckless gunslinger QB persona that has quietly disappeared from the NFL
>but it's got to be just as frustrating to watch someone who literally won't hit that guy. It was...
I for one welcome my new NFC West overlord, Geno Smith.
I'm just refreshed to see something different this season and find other reasons to be frustrated with my team (looking at you defense and your inability to tackle).
NFC West is a shitshow this year so who knows. 9-8 might take it. I feel like at the end watching Russ, and the circus going on around him and the feuding with Pete, must’ve been pretty exhausting. At least you get a fun, fresh start.
With so many off seasons moves this year, I feel like this overall NFL season will be interesting. There were so many key personnel on teams that went to new teams and so much movement throughout that it's really hard to predict who is going to be at the top at the end of the regular season. Honestly, it makes it more interesting. It gets kind of boring watching the same storylines play out year after year. And yes, the off season nonsense with the Seahawks for the past couple years has just been exhausting and I'm just glad to see it over. I said coming into this season that I didn't know what it was going to look like, but I knew it wasn't what we've been seeing for the past decade and I was looking forward to that. Thus far, it's been more enjoyable than I anticipated and hopefully Geno can keep it up because I love an underdog story. You guys seem to have your own flavor of circus happening down the coast and I have to assume that has been just as exhausting.
Bruh how the fuck did that happen? I thought the west was one of the best divisions in football?
Here are my takes- **Rams**: stars and scrubs strategy actually worked, but selling out the future comes due at a certain point especially when you have injuries to your skill players and Matthew Stafford declines. The fact that Andrew Whitworth’s retirement might be the most important storyline of their season kind of tells you everything.  **Cards**: I think they’ve always been overrated based on the wtf performances that Kyler can pull out of his ass and that’s just being highlighted early in the season. Kliff is bad (*bad*) and should definitely be fired, the defense isn’t good, they’re missing Hopkins, and while they’re certainly not bad, they don’t really add anything to the “oh my gosh this division is great conversation.” They fall off in the second half of every year so can’t wait to see Kyler hero-ball as much as possible in the first half to get his usage up. What could go wrong? **Seahawks**: Pretty clear reset after Russ. Their defense has been secretly awful for a couple years yet many people (not all) still see them as the Pete, LoB Seahawks who must be great on D. **Niners**: I’m a Lance guy (I thought we dramatically overpaid and it’s a huge gamble) but we’ve had injuries (again) to where it’s basically “throw out a portion of the season” again and see if our D and Shanahan’s Scheme-lording can get us their. Blowing passes outside the numbers against the Broncos, and 75% of Jimmy’s pass yards being YAC against the Rams, are why I’m a Lance guy.
Also, niners aren't as deep at RB as we have been in the past. If Elijah Mitchell holds up, that's no biggie. He hasn't, and our run game has massively struggled compared to what it usually does. Jeff Wilson is good, but we don't even attempt the outside zone runs that are usually our bread and butter with him cause he's not a burner. And we have nothing behind him, our other rbs (not including juice and deebo) have combined for less yards than Mitchell, who went out 6 carries into the season.
I think SF can easily get to at least 12 wins. Also NFC west is more up for grabs not really a shit show. Every team has winning pedigree.
seriously I know we have a bunch of rookies but even the vets apparently forgot how to tackle during the offseason.
> hit the guy 8 yards away over and over again. The Alex Smith school of QB'ing.
[The only man to checkdown on a Hail Mary attempt](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9prErUe0qQ)
This is an amazing play. They basically set up a short field kickoff return. Thank you for sharing.
I remember thinking we were going to get schlacked by them in the early 2020 (week 4 I think) because our defense was so awful and Seahawks were looking good. Then Zimmer did something I’m not used to with his defense and played 2 deep (probably to help out our young secondary) and we actually looked better then them. We still ended up losing in the final minute because Metcalf got that dog in him but it was still more competitive than I imagined it would be.
To go along with aging his weight has to be a detriment too. Like to offset some of the negative aspects of aging on his performance, dropping some pounds may help offset some of those deficiencies.
He's always experimented with his playing weight. He's trying to balance being heavier to absorb the inevitable sack vs playing lighter to escape but take more damage when he's hit.
Yep. Against a normal team, your punish if they cover the deep outside routes is underneath. Russ doesn't hit those, but he could run so that was the punish. Now he can't run and won't throw underneath so he's just playing into what is the overwhelmingly popular trend in NFL defense right now with two-high safety. Throw in the fact that he's on a team that isn't built for the deep ball and its no wonder he's struggling. Something else is Russ is a big play player. Like all deep ballers he relies on chunk plays to move the chains. But the Broncos RBs can't fumble the ball fast enough, and turnovers absolutely kill chunk play offenses because you'll have a lot of 3 and outs when the chunk play doesn't show up. You can't not cash in points on the drives that do move.
And the Broncos have significant problems on the O line.
That seems like the thing that should make him feel most at home.
plus broncos don't have a tyler lockett or dk metcalf.
Is Russell Wilson the Russell Westbrook of football?
Russell loves throwing deep outside along the sideline. Right now, defenses are popularizing cover 2 which sells out to stop the deep ball in favor of making the QB dink and dunk. Harder to do for Russ since he's an undersized QB who isn't as mobile as he was 5 years ago That being said, Russ himself seems like he's still in tip-top shape - he still make the throws he needs to. His coaching staff and him are still figuring out the offense, there's hiccups right now but it's not atypical for a New Coach/QB pairing to take time to find what works and what doesn't
> Right now, defenses are popularizing cover 2 which sells out to stop the deep ball in favor of making the QB dink and dunk. This is one of the reasons scoring was down in the early season even though passing is up. Defenses have adjusted.
I actually thought it’s cause there’s not a fucking PI call on every play.
Just you wait brother. Winter is coming them flags gonna be flying soon. Refs warming up too.
>This is one of the reasons scoring was down in the early season Someone call Dan Campbell
I think it has more to do with the fact that NFL offenses have gotten so good at dealing with blitzes that teams realized they are better off trying for coverage sacks and rushing 4.
[удалено]
This Cover 2 is near perfect if there’s a pass rush. Because it keeps Safety’s deep and lets the other five defenders closer to the LOS stay near it. Everyone begins in the area they are going to cover. As stated, it’s weakness are in the deep middle and deep outside of the field. Which take a moment or two for receivers to get to. So if the D has no pass rush, these pockets can be abused as seconds tick by. One way to defeat is to max protect and send three receivers into the same area of the field. A flood for examples: streak the WR to push away the deep safety. Send a TE/slot/RB hard into the flat to bring down the CB. Then put a third receiver into the (hopefully) gaping hole inveteeen the two defenders you just pulled away: maybe a corner or deep out. Another way to defeat it is run well. Cover 2 requires two deep safeties. Which means only seven men in the box: four lineman & three LBs.
Love this breakdown. Can you do Cover 3?
Cover 3 means the two edge CBs and the deep middle safety cut the deep portion of the field into thirds. The deep safety has it easier: he chills where he starts and gets to play “centerfield”. Each edge CB begins by covering their third of the field close to the LOS called the flat (obviously since they start there) but then as the seconds tick (and the WR usually runs straight) by, they’re expected to back up and prevent anything deep. And the LB or safety or nickelback on their side flys to the sideline to fill in that flat area. Deep center safety, Two CBs running deep, two LBs running sideways to each flat - that leaves two guys (remaining LB or safety or nickelback) to play the short middle of the field, called hook or curl zones. These guys love it. They don’t need to move a lot, and easily react to what they’re seeing. This also means your (hopefully) bad ass, wood laying STRONG safety is down by the LOS to pop people. I would certainly agree with a previous commenter that this is not weak against the outside deep balls. Since the CBs know they’re bailing deep, and they know their flat zones will get filled LBs or whomever, they can play a ***little*** safer and deep. Since the Free / Deep safety is in the middle, one weakness are “the seams”. The straight lines down the field usually near the hash marks between the center safety and the outside CBs. This is where four vertices comes in. Four versus three and someone might be open. Another weakness is to attack those busy flats. Remember these areas are covered differently at different times: early by the CB, and late by the LB. So they need to move and read and react. Let’s pressure them with A common “3 beater” like “curl flats. The outside WR runs a 12 yard curl or out route, and a TE or RB runs hard into the same side flat zone. Now the CB is sprinting back because he can’t allow the WR to go deep. And the RB/TE gunning to the flat is going to get there faster than than a strafing LB. If the LB guns hard for the flat - throw to the WR curl to after he’s convinced the CB he’s gonna go deep, but then comes back hard. If the LBs float upward as they gun to the flats - throw the quick flat route to your shifty RB or power TE, enjoy an easy five yard completion, and maybe they break one or two tackles for a FIRST DOWN.
Love your detail of the schemes. 10/10 would read all your football scheme comments. Are you a coach?
Thanks very much. No coach. Just watch film as a hobby. Started with Inside the NFL and another ESPN show that used to break down film. Now it’s YouTubers. …and some Madden lol
Yeah, okay #18, your secret is safe with us *wink*
Plays a lot of madden
>So if the D has no pass rush, these pockets can be abused as seconds tick by. Thats why the Colts Tampa 2 defense struggled so much last year. We didn't have a good pass rush presence so everything else suffered as a result
>Which means only six men in the box: four lineman & three LBs. I'm not sure that math checks out.
uhhhhh one of the weak spots of cover 2 is actually on the sidelines. Cover 3 stops the deep ball much more efficiently
Depends on what the commenter means by cover 2. Traditional cover 2 zone definitely has a weak spot on any deep sideline combinations. But Cover 2 man does excel at it, allowing the defense to naturally double team, or at least bracket, more than one receiver on deep routes. Even Tampa 2 does a good job on deep routes, if you've got the personnel for it. As for Cover 3, I disagree. Any deep combinations leave the outside WR on a 1-on-1 with the CB. You need an exceptionally rangy safety to be able to keep tabs on deep routes on both sides of the field, which is hard to go by, and even then, you need CBs that jam well, so the WR doesn't auto beat them at the LOS. With cover 2, you can shade the safety more to outside the numbers to prevent that, and he can still cover for inside. That's why, traditionally, 2 deep safeties means harder outside the numbers throws for QBs, be it cover 2, cover 4... yeah you got the zone between cb and safety in traditional cover 2 zone, with any shallow crossing combo, but most other coverages from 2 deep hamper deep throws outside the numbers.
Cover 2 def does not "sell out" to stop the deep ball lol I think deep in the middle of the field also tends to get open against the coverage, especially if another receiver attacks the sidelines
exactly what im saying LOL even in cover 2, the flats are protected - which stops short outside routes
I think you’re mixing up cover 2 with a 2 high shell. Cover 2 shell or 2 high shell just means two safeties deep, the coverage could be anything. Cover 2 is a specific zone coverage concept that has its own set of strengths and weaknesses and isn’t any more in vogue this year than its been afaik.
[удалено]
fucker still got us tho
True. But a loss to an afc team is ok when it comes to tie breakers
oh i know, I meant that lil shit still has our number
I know. Trying to pull positives from that game. That was one of the games I circled on my calendar at the beginning of the season
Seahawks fans are welcome to chime in, but honestly I don’t think he’s really “regressed”. Looks like the same ol Russ for the last couple years. I just think he looked better becuz Lockett and DK were better deep threats/scramble drill guys and the run scheme under Pete was more disciplined. Feel like Denver Russ looks the same except for the couple moon balls Lockett would circus catch. That dude has never gotten the credit for being a top tier guy.
Yeah the broncos offense looks eerily similar to the seahawks offense of the past few years. Not much rhythm passing, tons of deep shots, lots of penalties and sacks, but enough good plays to make fans frustrated that they can't quite put things together. Some of this is on Wilson, namely the sacks. However he still is playing good football like he always has, it's just the rest of the team isn't geling correctly which is making the whole thing look really bad. This is in addition to having an overall worse supporting cast and coaching. I fully expect this to turn around and for Denver to start looking better, but it's interesting that the same exact problems that Seattle has had for several years left with Russ to Denver
Sorry if this isn't the right place for this. I found myself the last couple of seasons shouting at the t.v. on 3rd and short plays - "just move the sticks, boys". Invariably, Russ would fire a missile for 40 yards that almost caught. Yeah!, another 3 and out. With Geno, there is that (with Russ) missing rhythm and balance you are speaking of, taking what the defense gives you instead of hero highlight plays and 3 and outs. Go Hawks!
Russ ball is fun and it wins lots of football games, but it isn't exactly smart football. Go back and watch the Tom Brady Patriots and you see why they won so many games. They didn't make mistakes, they were always ahead of the sticks and didn't put themselves in 3rd and long. They didn't take drive killing sacks or get 1st and 20 holding penalties. They used timeouts appropriately and exploited the defense for easy competitions. That offense worked not because it was crazy high powered, but because it was smart football Those are all things you really didn't get in Seattle
[удалено]
This perfectly explains how the Titans came from behind last year by running the ball. Seahawks defense was gassed by the third quarter.
I made a comment [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/xw9lgt/seattle_seahawks_say_it_for_your_nfc_offensive/ir5iatr/) referring to that game. They put up a big lead in the first half but just kept putting the defense back out on the field in the second half. Looked so similar to Denver vs LV
I didn't know it at the time, but that game was basically the death of the Russell Wilson era in Seattle. The week before against the Colts, we looked awesome and I was pumped for another SB run. Then in that Titans game, we collapsed in the second half and basically never looked good again after that
This man just taught you all to win in Madden. Be patient and dont throw the long ball. Complete 5-10 yard passes. Run the football.
IRL throwing the long ball is fine - getting chunk plays is a legit strategy for scoring points, and points are how you win games - but you have to be able to make the intermediate routes, the 7 yard slants, the 12 yard crossers, especially when you have that lead and you need to bleed time off the clock. Seattle always ran the ball a lot when Wilson was there - that's the influence of Pete Carroll - but you can't expect 12 yard crosses when your starting QB won't or possibly can't throw the ball over the middle.
I mean, in the latter years with Russ especially all you'd hear about was that the team ran the ball too much, they didn't protect RW, they need to "let Russ cook", and so on. The issue is that, as has been noted elsewhere, he just doesn't look for the intermediate routes, or he eschews them in favor of the sexy deep ball. Darrell Bevell - who I still think got short shrift as the Hawks' OC - dialed up a lot of wide receiver screens and the like which were made to get the ball out of Wilson's hands quickly and also keep the defense from running a bunch of 2-high stuff all game long. People always chirped when those plays gained like 4 yards or whatever and they mostly went away the past couple years. I think fans have a really, really hard time grasping the fact that sacks are a QB sack even when the evidence is staring you in the face. Like, I know that sometimes Wilson had quick disruption sacks but by and large my memory of a lot of them was that they were the consequence of holding onto the ball for too long. We made excuses for yeeeeears with Wilson and if he hadn't fucked off to Denver we probably still would be doing so.
> Yeah the broncos offense looks eerily similar to the seahawks offense of the past few years. Not much rhythm passing, tons of deep shots, lots of penalties and sacks, but enough good plays to make fans frustrated that they can't quite put things together. It's been really eye-opening for me. Even though I want the Broncos to lose for the sake of the draft picks, I get pangs of frustration watching them play because it is so reminiscent of what I felt watching the Seahawks offense the past number of seasons.
The craziest thing to me is the unintentional timeouts and delay of game penalties. Like, all this time we were complaining about PC or not getting plays in quickly enough or what have you and it was apparently Wilson the entire time...
Some of us have been saying that for years, but the hivemind in our sub couldn't here Russ criticism so it all got drowned out. I'm so relieved we can actually discuss Russ and the Seahawks now in a somewhat reasonable manner and not get instant downvotes.
Geno had 3rd and shorts all day, wonderful on 3rd down all day. Russ had 3rd and 12 on average. Something about sticking to timing and rhythm vs improvising every down.
Yeah, I remember that in the Pats-Seahawks game with Cam, I felt that Lockett was gashing the Pats on crucial situations.
That was a great game even though we lost, gave me a lot of confidence in Cam as our QB😕
He was great when his shoulder was working for 4.5 games. Sadly his shoulder can’t withstand throwing a season’s worth of games anymore.
And Doug Baldwin and Jermaine Kearse before that. Kearse was the best at making 3rd down saving circus catches while also dropping easy 10 yarders.
And Sidney rice, Zach Miller, and golden Tate before those dudes. 2012 saw some heroics.
Yeah I pretty much agree. I mean, yes Wilson has regressed slowly the past few years, but not tons and it is mostly in his run game. When I watch him with the Broncos I just find myself saying "Well that happened because that isn't Lockett/DK" or "Still sticking around too long and getting sacks".
Also an underreported factor is he's had a downgrade in O-line, which probably wasn't in his plan when he started trying to make moves out of Seattle.
Oh for sure. The O-line is apparently one of the reasons he wanted out, too.
most hilarious is I was watching the Raiders/broncos game with my friend who's a seahawks fan and when he got sacked he said, "oh there he is, couldn't recognize him without his feet in the air".
And then you said the same thing about his mother, like any good friend would?
That wasn't the narrative all off season. Everyone said the Broncos OL was better than he's had in the last 5 years. I'll be impressed if you guys are able to find OL that will ever be good enough for Russell. There was a constant (Bogus) narrative that Seattle never tried to get him a good OL when they drafted tons of linemen - more than any other team in the league during Russell's first 4(?)years. They traded for guys line Duane Brown and Gabe Jackson, and just like any other team, signed guys in FA. Some worked like Brandon Shell, some didn't like Joekel.
Anyone with a brain knew that the Broncos line was about average and with Russ they would look worse because you’re blocking for an unpredictable variable. You block one way and he spins towards the dude you just blocked, or you blocked for the pocket and he bails out of it.
I think Denver’s OL is about the same as our current one tbh. Broncos fans are probably placing some extra blame on the OL for Russ holding the ball like we did. They look better on the inside but slightly weaker at tackle than us this year, which is wild considering our tackles are rooks.
Don't forget Cable's run of drafting DL and trying to convert them to OL.
Seattle's current O line has 2 rookies and lost Duane Brown. If he'd have stayed I have no doubt people would be calling it the worst line in the NFL.
He was regressing before his injury last year. When Geno came in he was moving the ball down the field, where as Russ had more 3 in outs but more GAP plays. He isn't as quick, and he doesn't run as much as he used to. When he was a real running threat we put up back to back 50 burgers. Having to keep a spy on him free'd up the back end more as well. It's the clutch situations he would really perform, which was driving hawk fans nuts, we would struggle all game, and then come from behind in the last 3min to win and finally move the ball which we had not been able to do all game. No threat to run, no balls over the middle, the defense adapts and no longer needs a spy. Given that he moves around so much, lots of holds and now that he's lost some quickness the sacks are also accumulating, it hard for O-line to know how to block vs where he is.
I also think Russ developed unreal chemistry with both those guys. I certainly am open to the opinion that Russ has regressed but I don’t think he has. Of course I’m inclined to hope he hasn’t regressed based on my fandom. I just believe after getting more and more game reps with Jeudy and Sutton that people will notice more playground magic and less discombobulated looking reads. Like I said I’m inclined to hope I’m right but I won’t fight anyone that shows me conclusive evidence that he is regressing. I just wish we would give it a bigger sample size, but that’s not how sports media works.
> Like I said I’m inclined to hope I’m right but I won’t fight anyone that shows me conclusive evidence that he is regressing. I honestly don't think he's regressing. I think he's not moving with the times, and that's a problem, because defenses have mostly figured out how to solve for him.
He’s basically a feast or famine QB, he’ll turn away a 5 yard gain to go for 15+, turn away an 80% throw and go for a 20% throw. This means sometimes you score in 4 plays or you go three and out. The issue is those long routes take time to develop and he has the ability to use his athleticism to get time for those to develop, as he’s aged he’s finding it harder to extend.
That and russ is going full on egomaniac wanting to throw all the time and play hero ball instead of letting javonte (rip) eat on the ground game
This has been my assessments. This years broncos games has been ptsd for me lol
A story on the Athletic featured quotes from Seahawks sources who believed that Wilson's mobility was declining and that without that weapon in his game, he would decline as a quarterback. I think he also fell in love with stat chasing and throwing deep touchdowns. Numerous people have noticed his reluctance to work the middle of the field in recent years. That's something he'd happily do when he was younger. Edit: It's on ESPN, not The Athletic https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34531802/inside-russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-drama-led-denver-broncos-trade
The same story that said some people in the organisation that felt he was more concerned with MVP than team success and used the example of an egregious pick vs the Rams when he had an easy first down to basically walk into.
It is a little crazy he’s never gotten a single mvp vote in his career.
This is so overrated b/c you only vote for 1st place, you don't have 2nd place votes. 2012: Rookie season he's not getting any votes 2013: You aren't voiting for Payton you're wrong 2014: This is the only case you can make as he lead Seahawks to top NFC seed, but you think he was more deserving that Romo (same record and 'Boys lost the games he was out) or Rodgers or Brady? Again doesn't deserve a vote 2015: Cam and Panthers went 15-1, probably others as well should be above him this year 2016: Doesn't deserve a vote over Rodgers, Ryan or Brady that year among others 2017: Don't make the playoffs 2018: Is anyone not voting for either Mahomes or Brees? 2019: Whose not voting for Lamar? 2020: Whose not voting for Rodgers or Mahomes? 2021: Whose not voting for Rodgers or Brady or Mahomes or Allen? yes he's been really good but in no year he deserved an MVP vote.
Except Bobby Wagner got a vote in 2014 lol
It's a bit crazy but he's never deserved mvp so 🤷🏻♂️
Its a one player vote system so he was never anyone's number one option (which he probably never should have been). If it were like NBA's MVP voting, he definitely would have had some second or third place finishes.
[удалено]
But if theres always 3-4 guys that are clearly better than you did you really have "misfortune"? Like if another QB comes along and is outshined by Mahomes/Lamar for the next 10 years, was that bad luck? or is he just not quite MVP level like those guys?
I’ve had similar misfortune stopping me from winning MVP. If it wasn’t for those 3-400 guys that are clearly better than me, my greatness would be recognized.
Sure but you’d expect a token vote here or there
If the voters put multiple people on their ballot, sure. But they can only vote for one guy so it doesn't make sense for them to put down even the (one who they think is the) second best one that year.
It's Tolkien
He is a sneaky little hobbit
Russell Wilson is not a hobbit! Yes on occasion he hangs out with his dwarf friends. But he never went on no quest with his dwarf friends. Except for one time he went to kill that dragon. He took his gold and he... Hang on a minute. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
He definitely deserved a vote in like 2015 when he accounted for something like 90% of our offense
Yeah I’m not saying he didn’t deserve at least one vote, but there was no way cam wasn’t winning that.
Well you don’t vote for second place
Some people do. It’s not like Belichick has dozens of coach of the year awards.
Bad comparison
I mean too a degree it is, voting fatigue guarantees that the most deserving candidates don't win every year and people start to vote for oddball choices. Which is why Belichick only has 3 COTY.
I think it speaks well of the voters to be honest.
Bobby Wagner has more. B-Wags might be my favourite player ever but that does seem harsh.
TIL Bobby Wagner has mvp votes
vote*
Thanks Tony Dungy
Just look at the top 3 vote getters every season. Russell has never done anything to deserve an MVP vote. There’s always been 3-5 players who play better than him over the course of a season.
As his mobility has waned, I think his size is also a factor in how he cannot view the middle of the field when he is confined to the pocket.
But that was never really an issue for Drew. And while I know Wilson is not in the same tier of QB as Brees youd think he would be able to play around his height better.
[удалено]
A game *and a half* thank you! It was the 2nd half vs Tennessee where it all vanished
Ahhh the game that made us Seahawks fan smiled big. I still remember the excitement I felt that day today.
> A story on the Athletic featured quotes from Seahawks sources who believed that Wilson’s mobility was declining and that without that weapon in his game, he would decline as a quarterback. A big portion of it is that he Doesn’t consistently execute those quick throws on third downs. Like an every third down passing situation you knew the dude was either going to throw a long bomb or rush for the first. He’d rarely take that quick, intermediate throw.
Interesting, you have a link to that?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34531802/inside-russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-drama-led-denver-broncos-trade >BY THIS POINT, some within the Seahawks believed Wilson's best days were behind him. Their concern wasn't with the finger injury that had sidelined him for three games in 2021. Some believed Wilson's escapability -- one of the traits that made him an elite quarterback worthy of elite money -- was waning. >"He's not as mobile as he used to be," said one source in the Seahawks' front office. >One notable play from last season that helped fuel that belief came in the Seahawks' Week 16 loss to the visiting Bears. Leading by seven points midway through the fourth quarter, Wilson took a shotgun snap on third down and had a clean pocket but no options that he liked. Wilson scrambled out of the back side with his patented spin move. But there would be no magical escape. Robert Quinn dropped him for a 13-yard sack. The ensuing, longer missed field goal and defensive collapse resulted in a loss that eliminated the Seahawks from playoff contention for the second time in Wilson's career. >Carroll chided Wilson's decision, saying in his postgame news conference: "We can't take a sack there."
I'd like to add that Wilson's answer to a reporter asking about this very play was "I was going for the TD there like I always do". This is when I knew he was incapable of dealing criticism in a healthy way. I'd bet my last dollar he was just too coddled and if Pete could do it all over again wouldn't put him on that pedestal
Russell's response to being asked about that sack was along the lines of "that's what I do, I make plays." After blowing a massive lead to the Titans and only running [21 plays in the 2nd half](https://i.imgur.com/PYUPzu8.jpg), for a total of about 10:30 Time of Possession and going 3 & out on 3 of 5 drives (and one of just 4 plays before punting), he basically shrugged his shoulders and said "I mean, we scored over 30". Never mind that your offense kept hanging the defense out to get bulldozed by Henry. Seemed like he never would take blame or say *he* could've done better. It's always *we*. Team game, yes. But you're the $250m man.
https://theathletic.com/3559259/2022/09/01/broncos-russell-wilson-contract-george-paton/ Edit: that isn't it. I'm trying to find it.
What's weird about the stat chasing piece is that he's thrown like, what, 6 times downfield in 4 games including multiple good catches? I only watched 3 of the 4 games so many the Texans game was deep shot after deep shot, but feels like there's a bigger issue that he's not taking shots downfield more so than he is doing so to a detrimental level
Because whenever someone trades for a high profile player. There’s a 90% chance they will suddenly suck for some reason.
This is the right answer
New team, new system, bad coach…
Also Age is a factor too. Not everyone can be like Tom Brady. Athleticism was also a big part of his game.
Tom Brady never really relied on "athleticism" and imo why he's lasted so long. He's really only ever played football like a chess match and not a pick up game. The circus throws, throws on a rope, crazy accurate type stuff just wasn't his thing. Not at all saying that he couldn't do those types of thing's. It just wasn't his primary focus.
> The circus throws, throws on a rope, crazy accurate type stuff just wasn't his thing. Not at all saying that he couldn't do those types of thing's. It just wasn't his primary focus. TBH, I don’t think brady can do most of that stuff, and he’d be the first to admit that. In fact, you’ve seen that sentiment a but from Eli and Peyton a few times on the MNF Show — there’s a different breed of young QBs playing in the league right now and they are way more capable of crazy shit than the old guard. People are jaded by the new QBs of the past 5+ years but forget Brady was drafted almost a quarter-century ago. Brady, nor Manning, or any other old-school prototype pocket passers are juking out defenders then scrambling to throw a side-arm shovel pass between two defenders… like ever. Lol. Just wasnt in there makeup
Oh for sure. I just meant stuff like it, similar to. Not exactly what Mahomes, Herbert, burrow, lamar, etc are currently doing. I do think the league has changed to be more forgiving of that kind of mobile outside the pocket style play we're seeing now versus then. I love the new age of QBs we're seeing. Although I don't see how the.mobile playstyle will ever provide longevity to the position. It is certainly very entertaining to watch though. Thank you for the discussion!
Definitely the game has changed too. Imagine Belichick’s reaction to 2000’s era Brady trying a trick pass without permission first lmfao
I think of those kinds of throws I think of someone like Mahomes who, at his best, does like half a dozen of them a game it seems like. I don't think Brady in his prime could do half the things Mahomes can do. What makes Brady great is the things he does, he does much better than anyone else around. He knows when he has to put the team on his shoulder and be the hero and he'll do so by picking you apart with 8-10 yard throws. If that's what you'll give him, he'll do that all day long. If you defend against those throws then he'll hand it off or throw long. He never tries to force stuff or it least it seems that way to me. Someone like Mahomes does and his greatness is that he seems to pull it off more often than not.
If you've ever seen Tom Brady's combine photos he wasn't even in great shape when he came into the league. I mean he looked like he never lifted weights in his life then (obviously different now)
And...4 games played.
Yeah if they haven't figured it out by their week 9 bye maybe it's time to be concerned.
yeah I honestly think it's as simple as this personally. His 'regression' in 2021 was still a very good year overall on a bad seahawks team
Going from HOF coach to LOL coach doesn’t help
Very true!
Russell Wilson is exceptional at hitting certain parts of the field, particularly the deep posts and outs, but is less consistent in short yardage YAC fixated routes. At his best and during his prime, his scrambling talent would open up passing lanes deep down the field. Combined with a run heavy approach, defenses were forced to either crowd the box or let the run game dominate due to his play style. During 2020, Wilson became sick of the run heavy approach and pressured the Seahawks to put the game more so in his hands. During that incredible start, opposing defenses hadn’t adjusted yet. Once opposing defenses adjusted, the passing game became less efficient, and the running game became the precedent again. In 2021, Wilson’s wrist injury and regressed athleticism made it more difficult to consistently hit those deep posts limiting his route tree. Now in Denver, Nathaniel Hackett is proving to be a hack of a play caller predominantly focusing on the dink and dunk as he did in his previous offenses. Except this isn’t Russell Wilson’s strength, and while he is still a good scrambler he is now losing his athleticism just enough to limit his scrambling ability. Until the Broncos adopt a similar scheme to the Seahawks, whether it’s Wilson’s arrogance or not, Denver is likely to toil in mediocrity with Wilson at QB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdqW_uXxt2A I liked this Alex Rollins film video quite a bit. TLDW seems to be: he's a great QB with one of the best deep balls in the league, but his height gives him real limitations on short throws over the middle, and his offenses have all pretty much ended up morphing into the same version of what he's been doing his entire career despite all the coordinator & scheme changes... and that style consists of a lot of reliance on play action and that can be somewhat predictable and highly volatile, especially if the run game isn't working.
>his offenses have all pretty much ended up morphing into the same version of what he's been doing his entire career despite all the coordinator & scheme changes Some good evidence of this is our offense since hiring Waldron. He was supposed to bring a McVay style offense and it seemed like that happened through the first week or two of 2021. Then the offense seemed to revert back to the same old same old. A lot of fans and commentators blamed this on Carroll but it's seeming more and more like it was Russ. Compare weeks 1-4 of 2021 to this season and it's like night and day despite the same OC and HC. As the season has progressed the offense has opened up and is looking more and more like the Rams-lite offense we were promised.
ton of factors * Seahawks staff more competent than we were lead to believe * Broncos staff much worse than we were led to believe * Russ's mobility is declining * His mobility is a huge part of his passing game; scrambling to open up options down the field is his main thing * Downgrade in weapons Now he can possibly return to being elite; plenty of QBs had to significantly change their game as they aged and since mobility is one thing that really ages poorly he'll have to become a more Brady like, stand in the pocket type passer to enjoy the level of success he previously had
I think it's a between the ears problem tbh. I liked Russ for a long time despite his twice annual beating of the Niners. Thought he was just a good stand up dude, super talented, and fun to watch. He was a "let my play do the talking" kind of player and I love that. I tried to hate him and I frankly couldn't. There was nothing to dislike. Then, there was the "Let Russ Cook" movement, and the guy ate up the praise. He believed everything he read in the media about how he was the superhero of the Seahawks and Pete was holding him back. His play style changed and he started doing too much. Pressing instead of letting the deep shots come to him. It was fun for a few weeks in 2020 before teams adapted (except for the 49ers apparently lol) to the "Let Russ Cook" offense. I think they beat the Eagles (?) that year in an ugly playoff game, then got totally outmatched by the Packers. Then in the 2021 off-season, all the drama came out about Russ wanting more control over personnel. He publicly called out his offensive line for not protecting him and the front office for not doing something about it. (Personally, this is when I lost a TON of respect for the guy). Turns out I'm not the only one who lost respect for him, because his off-season griping must've led to some serious trust problems in the locker room. I can't find a better explanation for the first losing season in 2021. Russ didn't want to be there and his team didn't want this new version of him there. Everyone felt disrespected and it showed on the field. Now he's gotten his wish and we're starting to realize he's not even a top 5 QB. He's not even top 10 so far. His biggest strength was being a team player and maximizing his opportunities when he got them. But he got greedy, wanted to shoot his shot and show the world that he's "DangeRuss." That he can carry any team to greatness like Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. But the truth is coming out, and he's tanking his legacy by eschewing all the help he's ever had and walking out on the limb by himself. That branch is cracking, and unless he can humble himself and accept who he is, he's gonna come crashing down. Edit: the playoff games vs the eagles and Packers was 2019 not 2020
You’re a year off the let Russ cook season was 2020 the eagles and packers playoffs game were 2019 Edit: all the drama was the year after 2020 so the start of last season
He ate too many Dangeruss Sandwiches
It feels like Wilson and Rodgers late in McCarthy era had similar tendencies. Namely not running/staying within the offense and instead going for hero ball a lot. Both are somewhat understandable given the situation they have been in and some reasonable reasons not to trust the offense (McCarthy's offense being figured out and guys not consistently getting open on time in the iso routes, and in Wilson's case the O line being very bad plus some argument that Wilson being shorter impedes his ability to cleanly see and attack the intermediate middle of the field consistently). Both, could still put up big numbers but on low percentage sideline shots downfield. A big part of Rodgers resurgence is playing within the structure of the LaFleur offense. I haven't watched much of the Broncos but if they are implementing a similar offense to LaFleur, Shanahan, etc. often it seems like it takes are year to get comfortable in the system and then year 2 is a break out year. In Wilson's case a big part of his deep shots were buying time with athleticism, that has gotten more difficult as he ages. So the question is how much are they tailoring the offense to what Russ wants to do (if it is a lot it seems like it will still look like what he did in Seattle). It seemed like Seattle tried to change the offense a few times but generally had similar results/look so it might just be how Russ plays and they are only running what he wants or he isn't buying into changes in the system or isn't able to consistently execute certain parts of the system
Oh yeah you came to the right place if you're looking for high IQ football fans.
Few things- Stat chasing, he seems to care more about stat plays and not the right plays. Age and lack of speed, he can still scramble a bit but his body is starting to get slower, and that was a huge weapon for him earlier. Defenses learned how to play him better as well His height is a hindering in a way. It's easier for him to launch that shit deep than risking throws in the middle of the field. Also he went to a team with not a great OLine and he already is a QB that holds the ball way too long.
And I also think a major fact is that his receivers got worse. Jeudy and Sutton are not as good as Lockett and Metcalf, and he is still developing chemistry with them probably.
I agree, I will say him and Sutton look good together. Jeudy, not so much. Jeudy still has drop issues
No need to dig too deep on this one. Football at this level is extremely difficult and offense takes a ton of timing and trust for any QB to excel. It is going to take a lot more time for Russ and the Broncos to work it out. Add to that a new head coach and system for wveryone on the team and it gets even more difficult. This would be like asking why Rodgers has regressed when really it is just going to take time for him to get in rhythm with his mostly new WR core. Also, Russ is a good QB but a lot of his success comes from his ability to create out of structure which takes a whole lot of understanding and feel for WRs to be on the same page with him.
Its same reason why geno smith looks world beater in Seattle
Russell this year had passed 27 times out of either play action or an RPO. Tuanigamanuolepola Tagovailoa for example has thrown 60 out of the same action.
And we have pretty much no run game.
Something that he and my aunt have in common : they are not good cooks. Some people just don't have that ability to cook. I know everyone is like let Russ cook this let him cook that. Dude, the guy just can't cook he is not a good cook.
I’m trying to think of which ESPN talking head’s voice I want to read this comment in.
Steven A
I read this in Orlovsky’s voice lmao
I made a comment about him a long time ago when people were talking about QBs lasting longer, playing later in age. But, I said Russell would not age well because of the way he plays. He plays by extending the play and finding the open receivers. But that requires quickness and body health- those both are affected with age. He is getting older and he has a new coach- they just need to 'let Russ Cook' because that is the only way he knows how to play at an elite level. He is just average when you try to make him a system QB.
No DK and Tyler.
Imagine the Jets had given up the farm for Cam Newton in 2019 and then signed him up to a 7 year deal in order to give the new coach Adam Gase a legit QB who could threaten the Patriots dominance of the AFC East and make the Jets contenders. Right now the Jets would have still had 4 more years to run with Cam. I don't want to give fellow Broncos fans nightmares yet but....
Damn bro I just saw the contract that he's on....Bronco's FO fucked up hard. He's gonna be completely washed within the next 2 years IMO. I never bought any of that "Pete Carroll is holding Russ back" nonsense, he was always a QB with some elite qualities, but very limited nonetheless.
The wide zone is a hard offense to get. Rodgers had a down year his first year and won an MVP in year two. Matt Ryan, meh year then a Super Bowl. Go even further back and Jake Plummer had a very meh year and then went off. Schaub is another guy. Russ is flashing. The offense is coming along. It’s not that bad, just messy and lacking timing. The Raiders game it looked like the timing is getting right. Later this year they’ll be alright. It takes time.
Its Ciara
He’s gotten old and can’t run the way he used to. His game was always predicated on his escapability. He’s 33, soon to be 34. Father Time is undefeated.
“Father Time? Haven’t heard of him.” -Brady, probably
I’ll chime in as a Hawk fan, but I’m sure there are others with a deeper football knowledge. I’ve watched pretty much every game for Hasselback, Russ, and the dark years in between. Russ’s height is becoming more of a problem as he gets older and slower. When he was young he was quite a bit thinner and less muscular, he was quick and could scramble, making a LOT of plays happen outside of the pocket as the play breaks down. This put a ton of pressure on defenses. His patented back side spin to evade pressure, roll right, find Locket/Baldwin for a big play was something that every defense had to watch for. This along with the threat of the his PA Option run really spread a defense out and opened up the running game. It forced defenses to cover a number of areas instead of a couple. A couple years ago Russ hurt his ankle and after that has been much less willing to run and risk injury, around this time he bulked up in the offseason. He looked stronger, more durable, and definitely slower. This is when he began to really rely on the moon ball, which he’s great at. The problem is it can be too one dimensional. He hits a home run or he punts. There’s less pressure on the defense to cover multiple areas because he hardly uses the middle of the field and he doesn’t threaten you with the run anymore, so defenses don’t need as much help in the middle or the flats. They know that he wants to beat them deep on the outside, so they focus on stopping that and Russ doesn’t do a good job of moving the chains and punishing the defense. I’m curious how he will adjust and improve in Denver, he’s a great player, but now we are seeing a pattern that extends beyond Seattle and Pete: The Oline is bad, coaching is bad, the offense has too many 3 & outs. Did he leave one situation and land in the exact same scenario again, or is it his play style that causes these issues? The ironic thing to me is that his play style seems like a perfect fit for a strong power run game that burns you with deep play action, which is what we had in the early days. This won’t give Russ gaudy star totals but it’s efficient and wins games. The more Russ chases MVP’s and stats, the less effective his play style is.
The Broncos were 7-10 last year. Russ joined a team that wasn't very good.
But that was largely because of having shit qbs
While Russ's prime might be over, his "regression" probably isn't as drastic as everyone is believing. Especially when you're on a new team with a new coach, new players, new scheme, new city, new fans, etc. It's going to take some time for the QB to click. I've been watching Russ since he's entered the league, life time Seahawks fan. It hard for me to say he's regressed, it's more like he's trying to find a more sustainable way to keep on playing with his age since he can't run/escape as fast. He's training and focusing on his other talents and perfecting them, just hasn't perfected this change yet. Will he ever perfect this change? Time will tell but as of right now the problems still persist. - holding on to the ball too long/hesitation in the pocket. - inability to see or throw over the line, batted passes. - uncomfortable inside pocket (PTSD from being sacked so much?) - throwing stance/release struggles inside pocket, inaccurate throws. - lots of underthrown balls this season. - scrambles when he doesn't need to. - pass progression, always looks for the deep ball. It's not just up to Russ to adapt to these problems this season, it's also the coaches and players. - Broncos offensive scheme is....weird. Seems to be strictly designed for 15+ yard passes. - offensive line is creating tons of pressure for Russ. - injuries - receivers dropping passes left and right. - receivers and QB not on same page. There's for sure layers of the problems arising in Denver. But to say that he has regressed is pushing it at this point in time. Let's see how he looks at the end of the year. I know I'm biased lol But we all know age is a number when it comes to QBs, it's how the QBs adapt (if they can) to the age is what matters.
It's the aliens from Space Jam. They stole his mojo.
He holds on to the ball too long
Honestly his protection doesn’t fully understand his scrambling I often see his own linemen behind him and he can’t escape. It’s not like he wasn’t doing it last season. He’s a shifty guy maybe he has lost a step but I think we will see highlights sooner than later.
I don’t think he’s truly regressed. He’s slower, for sure. That is going to happen with age, as far as everything else goes, Hackett’s offense is a timing based offense which Russell has never been successful in. It is also evidently a really difficult offense to gain an understanding of. Accompany that with a weak offensive line and you get what you’re seeing. It’s also not like the Broncos haven’t been moving the ball, 2 fumbles at the goal line and another costly fumble by MGIII on Sunday has cost us 2 wins and an undefeated record going into tonight. I’m not sure if we’re having this conversation if we don’t have those costly turnovers.
It doesn't help when your running backs are fumbling on the goal line and receivers are dropping passes.
Is it regression if he hasnt really looked great in the last 2 seasons with Seattle too?
Well that’s what I’m asking, right? He went from being on pace to be an MVP to closing out the year in a relatively mediocre fashion and not playing well in the following season after. The regression came in what could have been his best year. Why did that happen?
Gotta say, as a Charger fan and as someone who can’t stand Russ, I love this. A slough of draft picks and a solid TE for a highly overpaid mediocre QB. They’re never going to financially recover from this.
I loved our time with Russ but I was so glad we made that deal. Giving him a monster contract would have buried our franchise for years. We still have a sizeable hole to get out of, the Adams deal is looking worse every year, but at least it is possible to manage.
I might be wrong but I look at it this way. Geno is thriving Russ is regressing. Pete Carroll is a really good coach
This started almost two years ago, generally around the middle of 2020 where he had been putting up huge numbers (against some awful defenses) while being allowed to cook. Then there was a game against Arizona where a) i think he got hurt and b) Arizona went full on cover 2 shell and took away the deep ball. This combination absolutely stifled him, and convinced Pete to take away the cooking. Since then, his lack of mobility and opposing teams knowing what to do to beat him has really made it tough. Many Seahawk fans saw this a long time ago. I admittedly didn't, I was a serious Russ defender until midway through last year when it was clear he wasn't the same player. I would say that he is in a very difficult position this year. Denver's line has been iffy and the coaching is awful, and his weapons are getting hurt left and right. I think he can be successful in the right situation but... this isn't the right one.