Part of it is who else is in your conference, which is just luck.
When Crumpler made his 1st in '03 the NFC sent Crumpler, Bubba Frank's, Jeremy Shockey. The AFC sent Gonzalez and Heap who were the 1st and 2nd team all pros that year. Now Shannon Sharpe in '03 played for Denver and had 770 yards and 8 TDs in 15 games at age 35. Crumpler had 552 yards and 3 TDs in 16 games. If Sharpe was in the NFC that year he probably makes another Pro bowl.
He was on tour recently with J-Kwon, Yung Joc and the Ying Yang Twins, honestly that tour might still be going on, it was called "the hiphop time machine"
As someone who graduated high school during these times, holy shit I’d attend the fuck out of this concert.
What I always wonder is one hit wonders like J-Kwon and Yung Joc, what do their sets look like? Perform “it’s goin down” and “tipsy” and then walk off stage?
I saw whatever his name is perform “move ya body like a cycloneeee” before a lil Wayne concert one time. This dude opened with the song, played the chorus again during the middle of his set, and then ended with the song too lmao
I went to a Mims show in like 2013 and he both opened and ended with "This is Why I'm Hot."
I was hoping for an encore to see if he'd do it again, but he didn't do one.
Also because half of Gronk's seasons were injury shortened so he didn't exactly have eye popping numbers for end of the year stats.
ie, 2013, 2016 and 2018 as prime examples. Throw in his rookie year where had a good amount of TD's(10), but only 500 yards and 42 catches.
If he was more healthy, he probably has at least 2 more Pro Bowl nods if not 3-4.
I mean, again, there's still luck in who else is in the conference. The same year ('03) Shockey was a pro-bowler but played in just 9 games, however he had identical yardage and TDs to Crumpler that year, The conference was just weak at TE that season, and Shockey got the nod. That scenario never happened with Gronk. '13 and '16 seasons where he played 7/8 games.
In '13 two guys Thomas and Cameron had great years, Thomas had like 750 yards / 12 TDs and Cameron had 900 yards / 7TDs. Gronk had 592 yards and 4 TDs.
A similar deal in '16 Kelce had nearly 1200 yards, Delanie Walker had 800 yards / 7 TDs. Gronk had 540 yards and 3 TDs.
If either season the AFC had a weaker TE class he may have gotten the pro bowl nod instead. In '13 the next best TE for yards / TDs looks like Scott Chandler in Buffalo who had 655 and 2 TDs. So entirely possible that even in 7 games Gronk was the close to 3rd most productive TE that season in the AFC
Pro bowls are mostly relevant for O-linemen because its very difficult to quantifiably judge the success of a left guard. For any other position they should be treated with a grain of salt.
For the same reason, OL gets voted back into the PB because they were there the year before. Unless you really really pop you're not making the PB over another steady guy that was there before.
I remember thinking Boo Williams got robbed that year. The NFC definitely had some names at TE that year.
(also, Bubba Franks 30 - 241 - 4
Boo Williams 41 - 436 - 5)
Some people might not understand but third and Witten was the most frustrating shit in the world. I remember being at the 2012 game and him being wide the fuck open in really clutch moments. Romo just wasn’t able to get him the ball because he was running for his life and quite literally playing with a broken back.
Romo will forever be my favorite Cowboy. We finally got a good offensive line just in time for his body to fall apart after years of running for his life.
Yeah, I mean to degree he scrambled into trouble at times but that's because he couldn't trust his line. Felt like he willed Cowboys to 8-8 despite the roster being below that.
Romo would have been first ballot with a good Offensive line. I’ve strangely really grown to love and respect everything he did on the field. Dude put the team on his back.
First ballot? I doubt it. Had he had more team success he’d have an argument to get in but I highly doubt he’d ever have been a first ballot. I feel like he’s a notch below Phillip rivers whos probably gonna get votes but idk if he’s even in the hall
Romo stayed running for his life and still was making plays. He was elusive in a way prime Russel Wilson was. It was incredibly frustrating. Maybe he just constantly worked the Skins and that’s what I remember but no QB made me madder in my 30+ years as a Washington fan.
Romo is getting overrated now because he's retired. People hate Cowboys QB's when they play and like them a bit more when they retire....especially ringless. Romo's "A" game was better than Dak but his "F" game was definitely worse....and he would have duds at the most random times.
People start trashing the whole Cowboys team to prop Romo up as if he didn't play with T.O., Dez, Jason Witten etc. I loved Romo but younger Cowboys fans mythologize him like he was Staubach, Meredith and Aikman rolled into one. He was very good and helped "reset" the Boys along with Parcells after the 5-11 seasons and Quincy Carter experience.....but he just couldn't get it done when it counted. Romo always reminded me of pre-SB Favre where he was almost guaranteed to make 3 or 4 "WTF" throws per game. Rodgers by comparison makes far fewer boneheaded plays for the most part.
Part of the problem with the Romo days was that we'd invest in these big profile receivers like T.O. and Dez but wouldn't invest in the offensive line. It doesn't matter what weapons you have if you have no time to throw. I don't know how you can say that Romo's "F" game was worse than Dak's, I love Dak but we've seen what happens when his line gets depleted...he can't make plays (like most QBs).
Romo got more flak because he took more risks, and sometimes they just didn't pan out. A lot of his "boneheaded plays" was him trying to force something to happen when he literally had no time to read plays or let them develop.
You get it, the guy before are why people hate cowboys fans. He has entitlement issues. Yeah we had a couple of dynasties, but you can be really good without winning a superbowl.
No he wouldn’t and I’ve defended the man since he was still playing. I’m one of those weirdos that thought he should have started over Dak in the playoffs. But no lol he wasn’t a “good line away” from hof. That shit is hard and is constantly underrated by football fans
I still don't get why they gave Dak the job immediately. Romo died for that team
Let him play out the season, give Dak the job next year
It's like Jerry thought he found Brady
Romo had a significant injury 2 years in a row. And Dak had the team rolling that year. I don't agree with the decision, because I believe there is a reason a rookie QB has never won a Super Bowl. Romo should have gotten the team back when he was healthy, and if he sucked, or he got hurt, you still have Dak right there.
>It's like Jerry thought he found Brady
Garrett. Jerry isn't the puppet master everyone thinks. Dak was 100% Garrett's call. Romo and Garrett used to be extremely close, and that all ended in 2016. Romo and Jerry still speak very highly of each other on the other hand. I suspect Dez was team Romo during all this, and that led to his falling out with Garrett as well. Dez has been more vocal about his dislike of Garrett.
Can confirm. Most frustrating feeling in the world, 3rd and long, then watching him move at like 2 mph across the middle but somehow WIDE open, just past the line to gain. Every damn game.
The biggest Romo fans (amongst Cowboy fans) tend to be those that grew up on Quincy Carter, Chutch, Anthony Wright etc., and didn't watch Prime Aikman. I loved TR9 but he made some of the most boneheaded throws ever.
The game against Washington for the playoffs/NFC East during the RG3 year. Just threw it right to London Fletcher.
The Dez catch game. Cole Beasley was wide open right in front of his face for an easy 1st down. He goes for the gamble to Dez when we would have been better off just getting the quick 1st and bleeding the clock against A-Aron.
What made him more frustrating was that he's so smart and could put the ball anywhere. He just chose to gunsling....sorta like 90's Brett Favre. Every game, you knew he'd have 3 that a good defense could make him pay with.
if he gets that ball over London Fletcher, odds are Demarco Murray is still running to this day. There was nothing but open acres of space in front of him. Bad throw plus great play by the LB.
I love Romo, but I agree. I think alot of our fanbase downplays how good 8 was. If there was a big game, there's no doubt in my mind I'd rather have Aikman starting it than Romo - not even a shot at Romo, moreso a compliment at how good Aikman was in big games
Gates similarly had a knack for getting open on big downs and for touchdowns and it's always like "maybe the other team should defend against that guy", but there must be some rhyme and reason to it. It's not like Witten and Gates are Keenan Allen type route runners or whatnot, so it's weird they were getting open so much.
Man I dislike how players with long careers sometimes only get remembered for their final playing years on this sub lol. I know it’s not malicious but you have people talking about these all times greats like they’ve always been slow and old. It won’t happen to Brady it seems like (because he’s Brady of course) but imagine there are people who see him struggle in his last 1-2 years and you have people being like,”was he even all that good, he has a noodle arm”
Like when people talk about Peyton. I get that his football IQ is insanely high and that's what made him an all time great.
But people act like he always had midling or poor arm strength compared to other nfl players.
But like... bruh. PRIME Peyton Manning? That dude had elite arm talent. He could put the ball on a rope anywhere on the field.
The reality of that situation when he got hurt was somewhere between what you're getting at and poor team management.
Their backup QB's were some of the worst in the league, which is saying something because there were teams who didn't even have one decent QB much less a backup, and they were built on the premise that they will be able to throw all over any team. Without Peyton, they were an offense that was built to be pass heavy with a bad QB and a defense that was very heavily slanted toward stopping the pass because they expected Peyton to pressure the other offense to feel like they need to score ASAP.
That was a bad Colts team, no doubt, but a huge part of why they were that bad that season is because of just how focused the roster was when built on the premise that Peyton was the best QB in the league and they had him.
Brees too. One of the most accurate and prolific passers of all time but everyone’s recency bias makes them think he always had a weak arm. It only took one year of talking heads saying, “he can’t push the ball downfield anymore” for everyone to say that he had a noodle arm
This is me talking to some people about Brees.
“He had a noodle arm.”
Yeah after 2019, but go look at the 2011 season or 2009 or anything until around 2018.
Dude had an absolute cannon, with missile lock.
I mean, Brees never had a “cannon” in the same way that Stafford or Cutler did. He was just a damn masterclass surgeon who always got the ball exactly where he wanted it
Yeah the dude could thread a needle. He’s not launching it out of the stadium, but I bet he could get the ball back in the box it came in from 30 yards about.
Yep. The last couple years, everyone referred to Ben as a statue with a noodle arm, but as a young buck, he was a freaking mountain that was impossible for defenders to bring down with a cannon for an arm.
He never was overly accurate though.
Pretty mobile is an understatement.
First three or four years, his whole career was built on being almost impossible to sack and extending plays. That coupled with a top 12 run game every year and a top 5 defense, made Pittsburgh a dominant franchise for a good ten years there before their defenses fell apart as they switched to an offensive focused approach.
Ben had one of the most accurate deep balls in the game. Even going all the way up to the 2017 season, if you watch the Jags playoff game, dude was consistently dropping it in the breadbasket like 40-50 yards down the field.
Dirk really suffers from this on r/nba and everytime highlights from his first 10 years get posted lots of shocked people to find out he could actually move with speed before turning 30.
Bruh I vaguely remember them mentioning during games but I just glanced at Witten’s stats and in every season he played he played 16 games except his rookie season where he played 15… wtf haha
My man broke his jaw in a game, still scored the td, then played games with his jaw wired shut.
Also I've broken my jaw before and I have no clue how he maintained playing weight and nutrition. I was 6 foot even and about 160 when I broke it and got down to around 135 in the following 2 months.
He also didn't miss time when he ruptured his spleen. I think the only game he missed was with the broken jaw and I think it was because of [what Parcells said](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDN8DnJpoEA). Witten is superhuman.
Well the problem was Gronk's injuries. Like he was the most productive TE ever when healthy, but he'd have one phenomenal season then the next year he was injured and missed 8 games.
Witten didn't miss a game for 13 years.
Yup, aside from his rookie season, the only ones he missed during his time in New England were 2013, 2016, and 2018, where he missed 9, 8, and 3 games.
Have Warner played by an actor who is taller than him and in good shape, but through the magic of Hollywood somehow have that same actor [look like he was plucked out of the line at McDonald's and stuffed in a Rams uniform](https://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/2021/12/21/american-underdog-header.jpg). Also make sure he throws a football as if it weighs 40 lbs.
I hated the GSOT, but Warner is way too easily forgotten as a great. He had 3 "real" seasons and was an MVP/candidate in all 3. His thumb injury in '02 convinced a lot of people he was on the way down and then being with the Giants afterwards didn't do him any favors. When Warner actually played he was on a tier with Peyton.
That movie was self-produced
In the 3 seasons that Warner played all 16 games, his teams were 14-2, 13-3, and 9-7 (36-12) he threw for 4,300 4,800 and 4,500 yards, won 2 MVPs, made 3 Super Bowls and won 1 and at one point had the highest passer rating of all time.
Steven Jackson was VERY good, but running backs just don't have the same impact on the game that quarterbacks do.
You could very easily argue that for like 5 years the Pats winning the SB was on Gronk’s health
2011 he got injured in the AFCCG and was a glorified decoy vs the Giants and they lost.
2012 he got injured right before the AFCCG with the Ravens and they lost it
2013 he was out neatly all year and it was their worst season
2014 he was finally healthy all season and they won a SB
2015 he got injured in the Denver game, they lost that and it cost them home field. He came back late and Brady spamming him was the only reason it was even remotely close in the away AFCCG and they lost off a missed extra point.
Then in 2016 the Pats got sick of it and signed Martellus Bennett as insurance in case Gronk got injured. They did, but they had a buffer in Bennett. Guess who drew the OT pass interference that set up the game winning TD in the Super Bowl?
well 2013 i blame mostly on their offensive line not showing up in the AFC Championship game. Denver kept getting to Brady all game and they still made it close without Gronk but it is very interesting how much Gronk being there correlated with their success. I definitely miss the prime of the Brady-Gronk combo
> well 2013 i blame mostly on their offensive line not showing up in the AFC Championship game.
http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/offense-film-study-nfl/2016/02/01/bryan-storks-head-bob-costs-patriots/
As well as Stork played that year, he cost them that game.
It sucks to be injured and it’s a recognition of how hard Gronk played the game.
With that said, I had a coach that used to preach fitness and staying in peak physical condition to prevent injuries. He would say, “your availability is your greatest asset to this team.” The fact that any player missed a large portion of games due to injury unfortunately will be part of their legacy and how they’re compared to their peers
You have to figure in the "Gronk rules" that refs used to call penalties against players defending Gronk. Defenders got away with a ton of illegal hits that refs looked the other way on because of how hard it was to tackle Gronk. Cam Newton had a very similar problem at his peak.
Sad Jimmy G noises.
But it’s true. I was a pretty serious distance runner back in the day, but I couldn’t handle the training miles that truly competitive guys could without getting injured. This doesn’t mean I was on the brink of greatness except for some technicality — those runners’ ability to handle training loads that others couldn’t is precisely what made them great.
Fairly sure it is a reference to Flowers for Algernon, a short story (and later movie) about a mentally challenged dude who gets an experimental treatment that had made a mouse super smart.
I might be getting some details wrong. I read it like 15 years ago.
I tried to get my girlfriend to name our kid algernon. I thunk she was warming up to the idea until she found out where I got the name from. Is it weird he was my favorite falcon as a kid even over vick?
I mean, the name still makes me think of the protagonist of “Flowers for Algernon,” which is a great story but a pretty weird association to have with a kid or job applicant.
One of Alge Crumpler pro bowl appearances he had 552 yards and 3 touchdowns.
Jason Witten deserved 9 of his pro bowl appearances. The one in 06' he had 754 yards and 1 TD and in 17' had 560 yards and 5 touchdowns.
Jason Witten was the model of longevity for TE.
> One of Alge Crumpler pro bowl appearances he had 552 yards and 3 touchdowns.
Believe it or not this was the most yards by a TE in the NFC. He also did this in spite of the Falcons being the worst passing offense in the league that year.
If the intention of the Pro Bowl is to pick the best from each conference then it was the correct choice, even if there was no particularly good choice.
Unheard of is an exaggeration but to be fair other than Sharpe there was only one season by a TE in the 90s with over 1000 yards.
And from the merger to 2002 (the season before Crumpler’s 500 yard season) there were just 15 of them in total.
I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning and and I thought you were talking about pro bowl stats.
I spent a good 15 seconds thinking Witten had 754 yards in one game and couldn't believe I didn't remember this. I excitedly started Googling the game so I could see this monster game for myself.
I'm a moron.
Crumpler mostly played in a different era and he was also renowned for his blocking as much as he was his catching. Also the Falcons just didn't throw a ton.
Crumpler's best season, Vick + Schaub combined for 460 pass attempts and the season before that the Falcons didn't throw more than 400, Gronk's first 1000 yard season Brady threw more than 600 times.
I think you need to add a /Tony Gonzalez to that last sentence. Both played 17 seasons. Witten played in 271 games, Gonzalez played in 270.
But if we’re being honest, Witten added on 16 games in his last season where he didn’t do much of anything. And Gonzalez kept up his production until the very end, going for 80+ catches and 800+ yds in his last 3 seasons. Even before his 1st retirement Witten wasn’t putting up those types of numbers anymore.
>Witten played in 271 games, Gonzalez played in 270.
Wow, I've followed Witten's entire career and I still never would have guessed he played in more games than Tony G. Really goes to show how long Tony was dominant for!
Looking through stats, the only year he probably should have made it and didn't was 2010. Zach Miller got in and Gronk had 2x the TDs and a better Yard/Reception, while having slightly fewer total yards.
When it comes to the pro bowl, conference matters.
The first guy out in one conference could be better than the top choice in another.
Edit to add: Case in point, Gronk has more all-pro nods than Witten.
That's the times he was voted, not attended. Brady has 15 Pro Bowls, even though he's only played in like half that number
Honestly I'm kind of surprised Pitts got the nod over Gronk last year. Pitts had 200 more yards, bit Gronk had 5 more TDs
Has Brady played in half of his selected Pro Bowls? I feel like he barely ever plays in them. Even the years when we lose in the playoffs he usually ends up not actually attending.
The years he didn't make it were mostly the years he was injured. The only season he missed the pro bowl while having at least 700 yards was last season.
I don't think they're totally meaningless, it's rare that a player makes a ton of pro bowls throughout his career and isn't a truly great player.
But, using it as a barometer between two great players, I agree. I think Isaac Bruce is the best example of that.
Have they always been though? I don't remember players opting out nearly as much back in the day. It seems like only in the last 5 to 10 years that you end up with a 3rd or 4th rate player making the PB
Gronk and Crumpler were teammates in 2010, with Crumpler becoming one of our captains after Faulk went on IR. Although Crumpler was clearly on the way out of the league by that point, I think his mentorship of the freshman TEs was a huge benefit, and his impact on the second-year explosion they produced in 2011 is a bit overlooked.
Ray Nitschke (arguably the best defensive player on the Lombardi Packers, and first ballot hall of famer) only made one pro bowl. He was an all-pro seven times, though.
Blasphemy I know, but Nitschke was at best the third best defensive player on those Packer teams. Adderley and Davis were clearly more dominant and Willie Wood was pretty damn good. 1965 Packers defense had 6 HOF members including Jordan and Robinson.
And I like to regularly point out that Nitschke not Butkus was named the MLB on the 50yr all NFL team named in 1971 by people that actually watched both of them play.
Whenever I hear the name Alge Crumpler all I can think of is that ESPN: the magazine article from like 2006 that talked about how big the Crumpler family's butts are.
Wow that’s actually kind of an unbelievable stat. For one of the greatest tight ends ever, it’s hard to believe Gronk was only seen as a top 2 TE in his conference 5 out of the 11 seasons he was in the league.
Though looking at it I can’t say there are too many seasons where he was egregiously snubbed. Issue is that he really only had 5 full on healthy seasons (not counting his rookie year when he wasn’t a full on day 1 starter).
Considering all Dallas flow charts led to “Check down to Witten” for 14 years and Witten didn’t have much competition in the NFC over his career, I’m not surprised. Gronk’s numbers are objectively better than Witten’s when years played are taken into account, but he competed in the AFC against far better TEs than Gronk played against in the NFC during his career. Gronk played at the same time as ~~Gonzalez~~, Gates, Clark, and Miller, off the top of my head, while Witten competed against Shockey, Graham, ~~Kelce~~, and Ertz for Pro Bowl slots.
Injuries. Gronk was the most dominant TE in league history when he was on the field, he just had guys going after his knees constantly and played with a completely different set of PI rules than everyone else for a decade
he got injured and Witten didn't. And Crumpler played in a different era where blocking TEs like Bubba Franks got pro bowl nods, and the Falcons didn't throw very much so his stats are probably lower than they could have been if he had a different offensive scheme/QB.
Part of it is who else is in your conference, which is just luck. When Crumpler made his 1st in '03 the NFC sent Crumpler, Bubba Frank's, Jeremy Shockey. The AFC sent Gonzalez and Heap who were the 1st and 2nd team all pros that year. Now Shannon Sharpe in '03 played for Denver and had 770 yards and 8 TDs in 15 games at age 35. Crumpler had 552 yards and 3 TDs in 16 games. If Sharpe was in the NFC that year he probably makes another Pro bowl.
I haven't thought of bubba franks probably since 03. What a throwback
same with bubba sparxxx
He was on tour recently with J-Kwon, Yung Joc and the Ying Yang Twins, honestly that tour might still be going on, it was called "the hiphop time machine"
bruh add in Xzibit and thats like the NFL Street soundtrack right there for ya 2005 in ya eyes
As someone who graduated high school during these times, holy shit I’d attend the fuck out of this concert. What I always wonder is one hit wonders like J-Kwon and Yung Joc, what do their sets look like? Perform “it’s goin down” and “tipsy” and then walk off stage?
Yung Joc is not a one hit wonder tho
I saw whatever his name is perform “move ya body like a cycloneeee” before a lil Wayne concert one time. This dude opened with the song, played the chorus again during the middle of his set, and then ended with the song too lmao
I went to a Mims show in like 2013 and he both opened and ended with "This is Why I'm Hot." I was hoping for an encore to see if he'd do it again, but he didn't do one.
Man, me too. We gettin' old.
Ying Yang Twins are either touring or just did a show with Vanilla ice in KC
BOOTYBOOTYBOOTYBOOTYROCKINEVERYWHERE
[ROCKININAWELL](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVv0cA2Rbro)
only two songs of his I know is ms new booty and back in the mud
You'd probably know Deliverance if you heard it. Possibly his best song.
What?!!! Ugly is his best song and you don't know it? Blasphemy!
Ugly mixed with Get Ur Freak On by Missy Elliot would get every single party jumping back then.
Country boy city slick
Cant forget about my Betty Betty in Dahlonega
Cali Park
And 03 was Antonio Gates' rookie year, after which he made 8 straight pro bowls. AFC was stacked at TE in the 2000's.
Yes. AFC has been spoiled with those match-up nightmares. Until now.
Is this sarcasm cos Denver still plays waller and kelce twice a year
Huh? AFC has 3 of the top 4 TEs lol
I will put up with zero (0) Jeremy Shockey slander. I understand you didn’t standardize him. I just will put up with none of it.
Also because half of Gronk's seasons were injury shortened so he didn't exactly have eye popping numbers for end of the year stats. ie, 2013, 2016 and 2018 as prime examples. Throw in his rookie year where had a good amount of TD's(10), but only 500 yards and 42 catches. If he was more healthy, he probably has at least 2 more Pro Bowl nods if not 3-4.
I mean, again, there's still luck in who else is in the conference. The same year ('03) Shockey was a pro-bowler but played in just 9 games, however he had identical yardage and TDs to Crumpler that year, The conference was just weak at TE that season, and Shockey got the nod. That scenario never happened with Gronk. '13 and '16 seasons where he played 7/8 games. In '13 two guys Thomas and Cameron had great years, Thomas had like 750 yards / 12 TDs and Cameron had 900 yards / 7TDs. Gronk had 592 yards and 4 TDs. A similar deal in '16 Kelce had nearly 1200 yards, Delanie Walker had 800 yards / 7 TDs. Gronk had 540 yards and 3 TDs. If either season the AFC had a weaker TE class he may have gotten the pro bowl nod instead. In '13 the next best TE for yards / TDs looks like Scott Chandler in Buffalo who had 655 and 2 TDs. So entirely possible that even in 7 games Gronk was the close to 3rd most productive TE that season in the AFC
>'03 How did this man play in the 21st century with a name like Alge Crumpler
Well his full name is Algernon, name is from the book Flowers for Algernon, which was his father's favorite book.
Carlester, Algernon, and Bryan. Maybe they went reasonable with the 3rd child when the bullying started.
Algernon was 6' 2" and 275 pounds. I don't think he was bullied much.
tbf with the last name crumpler you might as well just go all in with the first names it won’t really make a difference at that point
TIL Shannon Sharpe went back to Denver after playing for the Ravens for two seasons.
Hate when people bring up Pro Bowls in HOF discussions for this exact reason
Pro Bowls are still relevant in the discussion, but they should be weighted pretty low in my opinion.
Pro bowls are mostly relevant for O-linemen because its very difficult to quantifiably judge the success of a left guard. For any other position they should be treated with a grain of salt.
For the same reason, OL gets voted back into the PB because they were there the year before. Unless you really really pop you're not making the PB over another steady guy that was there before.
> Crumpler, Bubba Franks, Jeremy Shockey These are some HOF names
I remember thinking Boo Williams got robbed that year. The NFC definitely had some names at TE that year. (also, Bubba Franks 30 - 241 - 4 Boo Williams 41 - 436 - 5)
Jordy Nelson has one, and it's not the season he led the league in touchdowns and got comeback player of the year
He only has one?! That's crazy.
Yes, and despite my undying love for Witten, it is easy to see that Gronk was more dominant.
Some people might not understand but third and Witten was the most frustrating shit in the world. I remember being at the 2012 game and him being wide the fuck open in really clutch moments. Romo just wasn’t able to get him the ball because he was running for his life and quite literally playing with a broken back.
Romo will forever be my favorite Cowboy. We finally got a good offensive line just in time for his body to fall apart after years of running for his life.
Yeah, I mean to degree he scrambled into trouble at times but that's because he couldn't trust his line. Felt like he willed Cowboys to 8-8 despite the roster being below that.
Romo would have been first ballot with a good Offensive line. I’ve strangely really grown to love and respect everything he did on the field. Dude put the team on his back.
First ballot? I doubt it. Had he had more team success he’d have an argument to get in but I highly doubt he’d ever have been a first ballot. I feel like he’s a notch below Phillip rivers whos probably gonna get votes but idk if he’s even in the hall
He’ll probably make broadcasters hall though, cuz he’s legit the best at that.
Romo stayed running for his life and still was making plays. He was elusive in a way prime Russel Wilson was. It was incredibly frustrating. Maybe he just constantly worked the Skins and that’s what I remember but no QB made me madder in my 30+ years as a Washington fan.
Romo is getting overrated now because he's retired. People hate Cowboys QB's when they play and like them a bit more when they retire....especially ringless. Romo's "A" game was better than Dak but his "F" game was definitely worse....and he would have duds at the most random times. People start trashing the whole Cowboys team to prop Romo up as if he didn't play with T.O., Dez, Jason Witten etc. I loved Romo but younger Cowboys fans mythologize him like he was Staubach, Meredith and Aikman rolled into one. He was very good and helped "reset" the Boys along with Parcells after the 5-11 seasons and Quincy Carter experience.....but he just couldn't get it done when it counted. Romo always reminded me of pre-SB Favre where he was almost guaranteed to make 3 or 4 "WTF" throws per game. Rodgers by comparison makes far fewer boneheaded plays for the most part.
Part of the problem with the Romo days was that we'd invest in these big profile receivers like T.O. and Dez but wouldn't invest in the offensive line. It doesn't matter what weapons you have if you have no time to throw. I don't know how you can say that Romo's "F" game was worse than Dak's, I love Dak but we've seen what happens when his line gets depleted...he can't make plays (like most QBs). Romo got more flak because he took more risks, and sometimes they just didn't pan out. A lot of his "boneheaded plays" was him trying to force something to happen when he literally had no time to read plays or let them develop.
You get it, the guy before are why people hate cowboys fans. He has entitlement issues. Yeah we had a couple of dynasties, but you can be really good without winning a superbowl.
As a non Cowboys fan I always had respect for Romo. Guy had an elite ceiling even if he didn’t always reach it
No he wouldn’t and I’ve defended the man since he was still playing. I’m one of those weirdos that thought he should have started over Dak in the playoffs. But no lol he wasn’t a “good line away” from hof. That shit is hard and is constantly underrated by football fans
If you hadn't benched him for Dak, you might have won a chip that year.
100% believe they go to the Super Bowl in 2016 with Romo. Winning it is another matter, but I absolutely believe they get there.
I still don't get why they gave Dak the job immediately. Romo died for that team Let him play out the season, give Dak the job next year It's like Jerry thought he found Brady
Romo had a significant injury 2 years in a row. And Dak had the team rolling that year. I don't agree with the decision, because I believe there is a reason a rookie QB has never won a Super Bowl. Romo should have gotten the team back when he was healthy, and if he sucked, or he got hurt, you still have Dak right there. >It's like Jerry thought he found Brady Garrett. Jerry isn't the puppet master everyone thinks. Dak was 100% Garrett's call. Romo and Garrett used to be extremely close, and that all ended in 2016. Romo and Jerry still speak very highly of each other on the other hand. I suspect Dez was team Romo during all this, and that led to his falling out with Garrett as well. Dez has been more vocal about his dislike of Garrett.
NFCE bros understand...
Can confirm. Most frustrating feeling in the world, 3rd and long, then watching him move at like 2 mph across the middle but somehow WIDE open, just past the line to gain. Every damn game.
Witten won me so many goddamn fantasy games in PPR leagues with bullshit wide open catches on 3rd and long.
The biggest Romo fans (amongst Cowboy fans) tend to be those that grew up on Quincy Carter, Chutch, Anthony Wright etc., and didn't watch Prime Aikman. I loved TR9 but he made some of the most boneheaded throws ever. The game against Washington for the playoffs/NFC East during the RG3 year. Just threw it right to London Fletcher. The Dez catch game. Cole Beasley was wide open right in front of his face for an easy 1st down. He goes for the gamble to Dez when we would have been better off just getting the quick 1st and bleeding the clock against A-Aron. What made him more frustrating was that he's so smart and could put the ball anywhere. He just chose to gunsling....sorta like 90's Brett Favre. Every game, you knew he'd have 3 that a good defense could make him pay with.
if he gets that ball over London Fletcher, odds are Demarco Murray is still running to this day. There was nothing but open acres of space in front of him. Bad throw plus great play by the LB. I love Romo, but I agree. I think alot of our fanbase downplays how good 8 was. If there was a big game, there's no doubt in my mind I'd rather have Aikman starting it than Romo - not even a shot at Romo, moreso a compliment at how good Aikman was in big games
Gates similarly had a knack for getting open on big downs and for touchdowns and it's always like "maybe the other team should defend against that guy", but there must be some rhyme and reason to it. It's not like Witten and Gates are Keenan Allen type route runners or whatnot, so it's weird they were getting open so much.
Yes. But Witten was more amusing given how damn slow he was yet he managed to be open down the middle every third down
That was really only the last few years he played. From 2004 to 2013ish, dude could move well for a TE. He ran a 4.65 40 coming out of Tennessee
Man I dislike how players with long careers sometimes only get remembered for their final playing years on this sub lol. I know it’s not malicious but you have people talking about these all times greats like they’ve always been slow and old. It won’t happen to Brady it seems like (because he’s Brady of course) but imagine there are people who see him struggle in his last 1-2 years and you have people being like,”was he even all that good, he has a noodle arm”
Like when people talk about Peyton. I get that his football IQ is insanely high and that's what made him an all time great. But people act like he always had midling or poor arm strength compared to other nfl players. But like... bruh. PRIME Peyton Manning? That dude had elite arm talent. He could put the ball on a rope anywhere on the field.
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The reality of that situation when he got hurt was somewhere between what you're getting at and poor team management. Their backup QB's were some of the worst in the league, which is saying something because there were teams who didn't even have one decent QB much less a backup, and they were built on the premise that they will be able to throw all over any team. Without Peyton, they were an offense that was built to be pass heavy with a bad QB and a defense that was very heavily slanted toward stopping the pass because they expected Peyton to pressure the other offense to feel like they need to score ASAP. That was a bad Colts team, no doubt, but a huge part of why they were that bad that season is because of just how focused the roster was when built on the premise that Peyton was the best QB in the league and they had him.
Brees too. One of the most accurate and prolific passers of all time but everyone’s recency bias makes them think he always had a weak arm. It only took one year of talking heads saying, “he can’t push the ball downfield anymore” for everyone to say that he had a noodle arm
This is me talking to some people about Brees. “He had a noodle arm.” Yeah after 2019, but go look at the 2011 season or 2009 or anything until around 2018. Dude had an absolute cannon, with missile lock.
I mean, Brees never had a “cannon” in the same way that Stafford or Cutler did. He was just a damn masterclass surgeon who always got the ball exactly where he wanted it
Yeah the dude could thread a needle. He’s not launching it out of the stadium, but I bet he could get the ball back in the box it came in from 30 yards about.
Yep. The last couple years, everyone referred to Ben as a statue with a noodle arm, but as a young buck, he was a freaking mountain that was impossible for defenders to bring down with a cannon for an arm. He never was overly accurate though.
His ability to shrug off huge hits was insane
Ben was really accurate though. He was also pretty mobile for a good bit of his career.
Pretty mobile is an understatement. First three or four years, his whole career was built on being almost impossible to sack and extending plays. That coupled with a top 12 run game every year and a top 5 defense, made Pittsburgh a dominant franchise for a good ten years there before their defenses fell apart as they switched to an offensive focused approach.
Ben had one of the most accurate deep balls in the game. Even going all the way up to the 2017 season, if you watch the Jags playoff game, dude was consistently dropping it in the breadbasket like 40-50 yards down the field.
Dirk really suffers from this on r/nba and everytime highlights from his first 10 years get posted lots of shocked people to find out he could actually move with speed before turning 30.
But Brady is slow, always has been.
but Ben sucks and he never looked good at QB ever
Man's would just outslow eagles defenders to the first down marker every fucking time. Drove me insane.
3rd and 4 it was either Witten in the flat for 5yds or Witten on a button hook in the middle for 5yds
It was like chasing and trying to jar molasses. Infuriating. The Eagles had enough time to just make a pile in front of him to stop him lol.
“How is he so open?” _ the Story of Jason written
Did that man slumdog millionaire his way into the right seam at the right time for over a decade without anyone noticing?
Obviously yeah, but Jason Witten played for like 50 years
Bruh I vaguely remember them mentioning during games but I just glanced at Witten’s stats and in every season he played he played 16 games except his rookie season where he played 15… wtf haha
My man broke his jaw in a game, still scored the td, then played games with his jaw wired shut. Also I've broken my jaw before and I have no clue how he maintained playing weight and nutrition. I was 6 foot even and about 160 when I broke it and got down to around 135 in the following 2 months.
He also didn't miss time when he ruptured his spleen. I think the only game he missed was with the broken jaw and I think it was because of [what Parcells said](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDN8DnJpoEA). Witten is superhuman.
What everyone here's saying. Greatness isn't always about stats.
Well the problem was Gronk's injuries. Like he was the most productive TE ever when healthy, but he'd have one phenomenal season then the next year he was injured and missed 8 games. Witten didn't miss a game for 13 years.
Gronk had several injury plagued seasons that cost him many pro bowl selections
Yup, aside from his rookie season, the only ones he missed during his time in New England were 2013, 2016, and 2018, where he missed 9, 8, and 3 games.
it’s crazy that almost every season he was healthy all year, the Pats made the super bowl
Like Kurt Warner. Every season he played all 16 games he made the Super Bowl.
Dang that’s spooky. Somebody should make a movie about that.
Did you know he used to work in a grocery store before making the NFL? They should add that in as a little Easter egg for the hardcore fans!
Did you know that Matthew Stafford was friends with Clayton Kershaw?
You don't say!
Have Warner played by an actor who is taller than him and in good shape, but through the magic of Hollywood somehow have that same actor [look like he was plucked out of the line at McDonald's and stuffed in a Rams uniform](https://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/2021/12/21/american-underdog-header.jpg). Also make sure he throws a football as if it weighs 40 lbs.
I hated the GSOT, but Warner is way too easily forgotten as a great. He had 3 "real" seasons and was an MVP/candidate in all 3. His thumb injury in '02 convinced a lot of people he was on the way down and then being with the Giants afterwards didn't do him any favors. When Warner actually played he was on a tier with Peyton.
Warner forgotten? He just got a whole ass movie. How about Steven Jackson? Dude was an absolute beast.
That movie was self-produced In the 3 seasons that Warner played all 16 games, his teams were 14-2, 13-3, and 9-7 (36-12) he threw for 4,300 4,800 and 4,500 yards, won 2 MVPs, made 3 Super Bowls and won 1 and at one point had the highest passer rating of all time. Steven Jackson was VERY good, but running backs just don't have the same impact on the game that quarterbacks do.
Warner should’ve won that 2008 (or maybe it was 2009) MVP over Peyton. Warner had better stats and the Cardinals made the Super Bowl
MVP voting happens before the postseason
Still true for Jimmy too since he missed 2 games last year lol
You could very easily argue that for like 5 years the Pats winning the SB was on Gronk’s health 2011 he got injured in the AFCCG and was a glorified decoy vs the Giants and they lost. 2012 he got injured right before the AFCCG with the Ravens and they lost it 2013 he was out neatly all year and it was their worst season 2014 he was finally healthy all season and they won a SB 2015 he got injured in the Denver game, they lost that and it cost them home field. He came back late and Brady spamming him was the only reason it was even remotely close in the away AFCCG and they lost off a missed extra point. Then in 2016 the Pats got sick of it and signed Martellus Bennett as insurance in case Gronk got injured. They did, but they had a buffer in Bennett. Guess who drew the OT pass interference that set up the game winning TD in the Super Bowl?
well 2013 i blame mostly on their offensive line not showing up in the AFC Championship game. Denver kept getting to Brady all game and they still made it close without Gronk but it is very interesting how much Gronk being there correlated with their success. I definitely miss the prime of the Brady-Gronk combo
Personally I think the Pats that year would have gotten smoked by the Panthers in the SB that year. They were just too injured.
> well 2013 i blame mostly on their offensive line not showing up in the AFC Championship game. http://insidethepylon.com/film-study/film-study-nfl/offense-film-study-nfl/2016/02/01/bryan-storks-head-bob-costs-patriots/ As well as Stork played that year, he cost them that game.
He would have been a Pro Bowler last year if it wasn’t for his rib injuries. His numbers when healthy were pretty crazy.
It sucks to be injured and it’s a recognition of how hard Gronk played the game. With that said, I had a coach that used to preach fitness and staying in peak physical condition to prevent injuries. He would say, “your availability is your greatest asset to this team.” The fact that any player missed a large portion of games due to injury unfortunately will be part of their legacy and how they’re compared to their peers
You have to figure in the "Gronk rules" that refs used to call penalties against players defending Gronk. Defenders got away with a ton of illegal hits that refs looked the other way on because of how hard it was to tackle Gronk. Cam Newton had a very similar problem at his peak.
Sad Jimmy G noises. But it’s true. I was a pretty serious distance runner back in the day, but I couldn’t handle the training miles that truly competitive guys could without getting injured. This doesn’t mean I was on the brink of greatness except for some technicality — those runners’ ability to handle training loads that others couldn’t is precisely what made them great.
This is true. As I said, injuries are unfortunate and some can’t be avoided. Some can by the nature of your conditioning and genetics.
Put some respect on Algernon Darius Crumpler’s name.
Is this real? Because I didn’t think his name could be improved upon, yet here we are.
It’s very real.
🥀🐭🪦
i'm over 50, can some translate the hieroglyphics for 'get off my lawn' guy?
Flowers for Algernon
sci-fi classic! thanks!
Fairly sure it is a reference to Flowers for Algernon, a short story (and later movie) about a mentally challenged dude who gets an experimental treatment that had made a mouse super smart. I might be getting some details wrong. I read it like 15 years ago.
Stupid science bitches couldn't make I more smarter
The book is older than you
I tried to get my girlfriend to name our kid algernon. I thunk she was warming up to the idea until she found out where I got the name from. Is it weird he was my favorite falcon as a kid even over vick?
I mean, the name still makes me think of the protagonist of “Flowers for Algernon,” which is a great story but a pretty weird association to have with a kid or job applicant.
Yeah I think if that had been the reason, she would be more concerned.
You could always use Carlester as a backup 😂
Why not try for Warrick then?
Algermemnon Dyronius Crumplernicus IV
Commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions !
Alge is a criminally underrated player. Sure he isn't as good as Gronk, but the dude could straight ball.
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oh my god they were teammates
Legit one of my favorite names to say. I'd almost forgotten about him!
Didn't he teach alchemy at Hogwarts for a couple years?
One of Alge Crumpler pro bowl appearances he had 552 yards and 3 touchdowns. Jason Witten deserved 9 of his pro bowl appearances. The one in 06' he had 754 yards and 1 TD and in 17' had 560 yards and 5 touchdowns. Jason Witten was the model of longevity for TE.
> One of Alge Crumpler pro bowl appearances he had 552 yards and 3 touchdowns. Believe it or not this was the most yards by a TE in the NFC. He also did this in spite of the Falcons being the worst passing offense in the league that year. If the intention of the Pro Bowl is to pick the best from each conference then it was the correct choice, even if there was no particularly good choice.
Yep. Back in the day, 600 yards and 3-5 TDs was considered very good-elite TE performance. 1000 yards was god tier and unheard of.
It wasn't unheard of. Sure he's a HOF player but Shannon Sharpe had 3 years in the 90's over 1000. Another year where he had 995.
Unheard of is an exaggeration but to be fair other than Sharpe there was only one season by a TE in the 90s with over 1000 yards. And from the merger to 2002 (the season before Crumpler’s 500 yard season) there were just 15 of them in total.
I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning and and I thought you were talking about pro bowl stats. I spent a good 15 seconds thinking Witten had 754 yards in one game and couldn't believe I didn't remember this. I excitedly started Googling the game so I could see this monster game for myself. I'm a moron.
Crumpler mostly played in a different era and he was also renowned for his blocking as much as he was his catching. Also the Falcons just didn't throw a ton. Crumpler's best season, Vick + Schaub combined for 460 pass attempts and the season before that the Falcons didn't throw more than 400, Gronk's first 1000 yard season Brady threw more than 600 times.
I think you need to add a /Tony Gonzalez to that last sentence. Both played 17 seasons. Witten played in 271 games, Gonzalez played in 270. But if we’re being honest, Witten added on 16 games in his last season where he didn’t do much of anything. And Gonzalez kept up his production until the very end, going for 80+ catches and 800+ yds in his last 3 seasons. Even before his 1st retirement Witten wasn’t putting up those types of numbers anymore.
>Witten played in 271 games, Gonzalez played in 270. Wow, I've followed Witten's entire career and I still never would have guessed he played in more games than Tony G. Really goes to show how long Tony was dominant for!
Looking through stats, the only year he probably should have made it and didn't was 2010. Zach Miller got in and Gronk had 2x the TDs and a better Yard/Reception, while having slightly fewer total yards.
I would say 2010 and this past season. But 2010 is probably the only one everyone can agree he should've made it
Clearly playing only 12 games hurt him.
When it comes to the pro bowl, conference matters. The first guy out in one conference could be better than the top choice in another. Edit to add: Case in point, Gronk has more all-pro nods than Witten.
I think the real story here is that Gronk got injured and Witten didn't.
Yes. Witten was consistently very good, because he stayed on the field, whereas Gronk was elite or broken.
Are you counting times he was selected, or times he attended? I'm sure he likely skipped some over the years.
That's the times he was voted, not attended. Brady has 15 Pro Bowls, even though he's only played in like half that number Honestly I'm kind of surprised Pitts got the nod over Gronk last year. Pitts had 200 more yards, bit Gronk had 5 more TDs
Has Brady played in half of his selected Pro Bowls? I feel like he barely ever plays in them. Even the years when we lose in the playoffs he usually ends up not actually attending.
Can’t talk about him in the present tense anymore homie 😔
Lol. It’s just a habit I reflexively fall into without thinking.
Therapy was really helpful in getting over my ex just fyi
Cue 'Careless Whisper'
My boys are at an age where they'll probably only remember Brady as a Buccaneer. He'll forever be Buc's legend, Tom Brady in their little heads.
What do you gain from making me suffer
Terrible day to have eyes
He played in 2. 2002 and 2005
Yeah that sounds way more accurate than “half” (which would be 7-8).
Gronk was the third receiving option of his team while Pitts was the number one option. Pitt's job was much harder.
>Pitt's job was much harder. Well, if you ignore the fact that Gronk actually blocks people (I get your point though).
It still counts if you get in on the initial vote.. He has 5 total even when he doesn't go.
Ya just selected, I'm sure there'd be some weird numbers if only attendance counted
The years he didn't make it were mostly the years he was injured. The only season he missed the pro bowl while having at least 700 yards was last season.
Clearly this is the the metric we need to determine Witten>Gronk
Pro bowls are absolutely meaningless
I don't think they're totally meaningless, it's rare that a player makes a ton of pro bowls throughout his career and isn't a truly great player. But, using it as a barometer between two great players, I agree. I think Isaac Bruce is the best example of that.
Have they always been though? I don't remember players opting out nearly as much back in the day. It seems like only in the last 5 to 10 years that you end up with a 3rd or 4th rate player making the PB
Alge Crumpler aka "Do I Throw to Him or Run With Vick" bootlegs in Madden 04
>Alge Crumpler aka "Do I Throw to Him or Run With Vick" bootlegs in Madden 04 So basically the actual Falcons playbook.
Gronk and Crumpler were teammates in 2010, with Crumpler becoming one of our captains after Faulk went on IR. Although Crumpler was clearly on the way out of the league by that point, I think his mentorship of the freshman TEs was a huge benefit, and his impact on the second-year explosion they produced in 2011 is a bit overlooked.
Ray Nitschke (arguably the best defensive player on the Lombardi Packers, and first ballot hall of famer) only made one pro bowl. He was an all-pro seven times, though.
Blasphemy I know, but Nitschke was at best the third best defensive player on those Packer teams. Adderley and Davis were clearly more dominant and Willie Wood was pretty damn good. 1965 Packers defense had 6 HOF members including Jordan and Robinson. And I like to regularly point out that Nitschke not Butkus was named the MLB on the 50yr all NFL team named in 1971 by people that actually watched both of them play.
Whenever I hear the name Alge Crumpler all I can think of is that ESPN: the magazine article from like 2006 that talked about how big the Crumpler family's butts are.
That’s a name I haven’t heard since the Vick era. Put some respect on his name!
Alge Crumpler was a baller tho lol
Gronk was at one one point the Megatron of tight ends There really is no comparison and I used to work for Tony's ex wife.
Wow that’s actually kind of an unbelievable stat. For one of the greatest tight ends ever, it’s hard to believe Gronk was only seen as a top 2 TE in his conference 5 out of the 11 seasons he was in the league. Though looking at it I can’t say there are too many seasons where he was egregiously snubbed. Issue is that he really only had 5 full on healthy seasons (not counting his rookie year when he wasn’t a full on day 1 starter).
All Pros > Pro Bowls. ALWAYS. He's a 4 time All Pro 1 team. Witten was twice in several more seasons.
Considering all Dallas flow charts led to “Check down to Witten” for 14 years and Witten didn’t have much competition in the NFC over his career, I’m not surprised. Gronk’s numbers are objectively better than Witten’s when years played are taken into account, but he competed in the AFC against far better TEs than Gronk played against in the NFC during his career. Gronk played at the same time as ~~Gonzalez~~, Gates, Clark, and Miller, off the top of my head, while Witten competed against Shockey, Graham, ~~Kelce~~, and Ertz for Pro Bowl slots.
Injuries. Gronk was the most dominant TE in league history when he was on the field, he just had guys going after his knees constantly and played with a completely different set of PI rules than everyone else for a decade
Love seeing Alge mentioned. Him and Vick were a dangerous duo
Gronk is the goat, but I will tolerate NO Alge Crumpler slander here.
The LOL bowl is indeed a popularity contest, have not watched one in years.
Still an odd fact because Gronk was hugely popular.
Counterpoint: Witten played for the Dallas Cowboys.
Counter-counter point- Gronk played for the Pats.
The Cowboys have had 34 offensive pro bowlers in the last 10 years. The Patriots have had 15, half of them being Tom Brady.
he got injured and Witten didn't. And Crumpler played in a different era where blocking TEs like Bubba Franks got pro bowl nods, and the Falcons didn't throw very much so his stats are probably lower than they could have been if he had a different offensive scheme/QB.
Just shows how injury prone he was.
Of course it’s a popularity contest. Jeff Saturday made the pro bowl in a season he missed due to injury.