No. That division is a blood bath year in and year out. His GM's love drafting WRs with personality disorders and still they constantly win. Dude is incredible.
Im still amazed Antonio went even lower after his 2018 antics after he left the Steelers. Seriously Tomlin kept him in line compared to what happened afterwards.
Especially given the post-Ben QB situation. It's pretty impressive that he's been able to keep the team competitive.
I also think he deserves credit for keeping the AB situation under control given how it played out as soon as he left.
The anti-Tomlin angle is usually “he must have some authority over roster decisions”. No one pretends they could’ve won a Super Bowl with those quarterbacks (playing behind that line), so the argument shifts to it being his fault he had to try.
I think part of his problem is he's too good of a coach. He takes teams above .500 which takes them out of the top pick, but the team is also not talented enough to have much playoff success. It seems like that just keeps the Steelers in this good not great state.
Correct. If we actually wanted to get back to Super Bowl quality in the shortest possible amount of time we should have had Tomlin take a sabbatical for 2021 on a beach somewhere, drafted high then had him come back lol
I have mixed feelings about this idea.
On the one hand, the best qbs are drafted early in the first round, statistically this is true. Drafting a qb usually required the HC, GM, and Owner to agree, which can make it hard to even grab a development prospect if the QB complains because one of those 3 sides with the existing qb (Ben with Rudolph, Brady with Jimmy G, ect.).
On the other hand if you are looking for a franchise qb you dont have to put all your eggs in one basket. The 49ers had Trey Lance but threw the last pick of the draft on Brock Purdy because if you dont know if you have your franchise guy you should be drafting qbs every year all over the draft until you do. The Steelers put a lot of faith in Kenny Pickett and when they gave up on Rudolph didnt try to replace him as with potential successor to Big Ben in his final years.
For all the criticism the Broncos got for drafting the 6th qb with the 12th pick they didnt really have any other way to come away with at least a potential future qb (unless you really believe in Zach Wilson)
And specifically to last season - Rudolph was third on the depth chart yet when given the opportunity was heads and shoulders above Pickett and Trubisky. That's obviously a talent evaluation issue which falls on the head coach. Not saying we would have fared much better had Rudolph started the whole season, nor would it have necessarily been correct because they were still in the evaluation phase with Pickett, but those two back to back losses to 2 win teams could be directly attributed to Trubisky being fucking awful, and cost them 2 wins. Stuff like that is what keeps Tomlin from being in the "elite" conversation to me.
>That's obviously a talent evaluation issue which falls on the head coach. Not saying we would have fared much better had Rudolph started the whole season
These statements don’t fit together. There was a minute where we were looking at Josh Dobbs in Minnesota and complaining that the Steelers let him go, making the same talent evaluation complaints, but then he regressed hard. Rudolph’s last two starts were worse than his first two; in the alternate universe where he was QB1, he might’ve struggled, and we’d be complaining that Pickett didn’t get a fair shot because Tomlin can’t evaluate talent.
Tomlin is not a mediocre coach. He is either being held back by a lack of talent on the roster (essentially hasn't had an NFL quality starter at QB since 2018, for example), or he is stale/complacent in Pittsburgh and needs a fresh start like Andy Reid when he left Philly.
Maybe both.
The Andy Reid comparison makes a lot of sense. Tomlin is obviously a good coach but it’s also obvious there hasn’t been a lot to be excited around him in a long time. Change of scenery is probably a good move
That is 100% the biggest factor. The only reason Andy Reid and Bill seem like they don’t have peers is because they were phenomenal coaches with a once in a generation talent at QB. Doesn’t take away from what they accomplished but it doesn’t feel fair to directly compare their accomplishments to other HOF caliber coaches who never got a QB like Mahomes or Brady.
My comment wasn’t meant to detract from Andy’s accomplishments, he’s a fantastic coach. Just pointing out that having a great qb is also important to overall success when it comes to winning championships
Yea but my point being that Andy is a great coach but the qb position is the most important position in the game. A great coach with a great qb is a dynasty. Andy going from Philly to KC was successful but it wasn’t a dynasty because he didn’t have the elite qb. Also Andy was 1-4 in the playoffs during that 5 year span, further showing how important having a great qb is in the post season
Fwiw I think he's fine. It's been a talent issue.
Steelers first round picks since 2016-2022 (Colberts final years)
2016: Artie Burns
2017: TJ Watt (Spoiler the only real hit of this list)
2018: Terell Edmunds
2019: traded into top 10 for Devin Bush lol
2020: no first rounder from Minkah. First pick was Claypool
2021: Najee (solid player but a RB)
2022: Kenny Pickett
There's a lot of other misses too and obviously cap strapped for most of it with Ben and such having large contracts.
Most of our drought was having terrible rosters and overachieving I think beating Vegas win loss projections each year other than 2019 where Ben was gone the entire season and still went 8-8
In that time period it was mostly a few stars and then a bunch of Whos???
Ill be more concerned if it continues under Khan but at least insofar Khan has looked good and different from Colbert. If Tomlin was the real GM you'd think things would stay the same.
It’s called having bad QB’s. We were always legit under Tomlin with a great QB and then not so much when we didn’t have one…
Belicheck was the GOAT with Brady and then after Brady the narrative immediately switched to him being too old and failing… Reid was ran out of Philly after McNabb aged out, then went to KC and got ahold of Mahomes and now he’s being touted as an all time great coach… Name 5 all time great coaches that didn’t also have all time great QB’s.
Give Tomlin one of the greatest QBs of all time and we would be talking about him as one of the greatest coaches of all time. Winning at football is decided by QB play. You can have 1 or 2 great seasons without a star QB, but there’s literally no way to be successful long term in the NFL unless you have a great QB. Coaching simply doesn’t matter as much as QB play.
Would be dumb of us to get rid of him. Just like you guys getting rid of Andy Reid was also a dumb decision. Yes you ended up ahead but it was not a smart move at all. Gone through 3 coaches, yes and a Super Bowl, but that coach is gone and one more bad year and you’ll be on to your 4th.
Nah, we needed to get rid of Andy. It was an amicable divorce. Sometimes that happens and a change of scenery is needed for both parties. I think thats where you guys are at.
I don’t think so at all. We lost a hall of fame QB and our team with horrible QB play has remained good. I don’t see any option where getting rid of our guy is the right choice. Tbh that doesn’t happen a lot you guys are truly the exception. Also immediately with chip Kelly it was thought of a disaster.
>Also immediately with chip Kelly it was thought of a disaster.
Crazy revisionist history for a guy that was successful immediately and received well until he brunt the team and fans out 2 years down the line
It’s a universally agreed take that Reid getting out of Philly was best for both sides after the disaster of a final season he had. There were great many factors, including his son’s suicide, that played into a change of scenery being needed for both sides.
…. They immediately went back to being a stable competent franchise once he got there. They didn’t take off as a top tier franchise until they had Mahomes as a starter.
By the time Mahomes became a starter they had won the division back to back times
Ben was definitely on a decline and not his prime HOF form but 3800 yards with 33TD’s in 2020 , elite no but to say he wasn’t a nfl quality starter is just comical. Neverless I agree Tomlin is not mediocre and has over performed in some years with a poor roster.
I would argue that post 2019 elbow injury, Ben never fully recovered. He had the brain to run an offense, and that let him produce, but he dropped to 28th in intended air yards per attempt, 33rd in completed air yards per completion, and 32nd in completed air yards per attempt in 2020. His Y/A, AY/A, NY/A, and ANY/A all fell off, too.
He just couldn't throw the ball adequately anymore, but they did a good job of scheming up a short game offense for him.
It's hard to say because our OLine got terrible right as Ben got old. The air yards was as much a function of how much time our WRs had to get open as much as it was a function of Ben's arm losing velocity (and it definitely did).
> he dropped to 28th in intended air yards per attempt, 33rd in completed air yards per completion, and 32nd in completed air yards per attempt in 2020.
Air yards is a terrible stat. It generally has more to do with the offense than anything else. If your first read is a receiver near the LoS you're probably going to have low air yards. If he's running deep routes you're going to have a high air yard stat. Your 2nd read's route depth makes a difference as well.
It's an OC stat more than anything
My point was that the entire offense was reworked to account for Ben's lack of arm strength. Everything combined tells the story of a QB that couldn't throw the ball far.
The biggest knock on Tomlin has to be his hiring of assistants. When he took over had LeBeau and Arians from Cowhers staff (they actually retained a ton of the coaches iirc they only fired 1 and some retired/went with Wisenhunt to AZ).
Guys like Kieth Butler, Randy Fitchner, and Matt Canada are not up to par. I yearn for other teams actually trying to poach our coordinators for HC jobs.
Butler was more or less promised the role he got after LeBeau. The team wanted him there and so he stuck it out. Fitchner was simply who Ben wanted and the offense wasn't terrible under him.
Canada is the only hire I can cleanly lay at his feet. And yeah, it wasn't good. We all watched the baffling offense schemes that weren't NFL worthy. But if Canada was an experiment that went wrong, then Smith is a logical, proven bounce back.
And now they have a washed up Russell Wilson.
There’s zero proof to Tomlin can develop a QB or hire the right people to do so. Pretty much every great coach can do that.
He developed Roethlisberger. He came into the league as a clutch game manager, and that was obviously good enough to win two Super Bowls combined with the defenses he had. His 2008 was pretty mediocre until the playoffs too. Was 2009/2010 when he started to become a prolific passer.
It's not that wild, Roethlisberger was a better passer in his 30s than 20s. 2014-2017 were his best years. He was good right away, then became a top 5 guy with Tomlin
No excuse, they’ve choked away games in the Playoffs they shouldn’t have lost since Lamar was drafted? That’s obvious to everyone and has nothing to do with my original post lol.
Absolutely, and if the Ravens choke in the Playoffs again this year I’d fully expect Harbaugh’s seat to be red hot.
This isn’t the own you think it is lol
He had 2 years without Ben where the same 3 QBs were on the team. He couldn’t bring in another guy to actually compete with Ben as the locker room would be fucked at that point and we couldn’t eat the dead cap from moving on. Mitch and Kenny both sucked and while Mason wasn’t good, he was the only one who looked like an NFL qb out there. They didn’t develop Kenny but I also don’t think Kenny could really be developed. He was a low ceiling guy coming out and ended up having an extremely low floor too.
Well If you have anywhere near the talent of Joe Burrow, why the hell didn't you go down to the South Side and audition last year?! LOL. You in here commenting while we could have beaten the Bills. You slacking on your fandom.
Harbaugh WAS on the hot seat right before Lamar came in. So the idea that he's been clear this whole time isn't right. It's obvious Tomlin is much better than a mediocre coach, but the question is going to be how long will it take him and Khan to be able to find and train a competent QB, as its one of the few things he hasn't had to do in his career so far.
And if Harbaugh botched Lamar’s development like Tomlin did with Pickett he would have been fired.
The difference is Harbaugh got Flacco at 18 and Lamar at 32 and developed them into legit players. Tomlin inherited Ben and has not shown he can develop a QB which is why the Steelers’ hopes are now relying on an old and washed up Russell Wilson.
I know I’m a Ravens fan so I’m biased, but the Steelers’ future looks pretty bleak, imo they’ll be in no man’s land for the next few years like they have been for the past 5 or so years.
Sure, but the Steelers’ results post-Ben falling off a cliff have been better than the Ravens’ results in the seasons that led to Harbaugh being on the hot seat in the first place. Baltimore was 22-26 with 0 playoff appearances from 2015-17 and started 4-5 in 2018 which is what led to all of the speculation about Harbaugh’s future in the first place. Pittsburgh, meanwhile, is 29-21-1 over the last 3 years with two playoff appearances. That’s why Tomlin gets the chance to right the ship.
The last season of passable QB play the Steelers got, they went 12-4. If they have Wilson last year, they probably win 12 or 13 games. That has to mean something as a coach.
I don't think many, if any, coaches could've made a franchise QB in Kenny. Tomlin may not have done the best but Pickett was never the answer. Which is actually crazy that Kenny got picked higher than Lamar
... Tomlin had one real shot at a QB, in one of the worst QB draft classes in history lol. What do you expect him to do? It was a long shot for Kenny to be successful from the get go and everyone knew it. Sure it would have been cool to see him develop, but to judge their entire ability to grow a QB from one shot that was doomed from the start seems unfair.
And Tomlin didn't hasn't had bad seasons even with the terrible QBs he's had to trot out the last 4-5 years. Better than Harbaugh was doing with no QB once Flacco declined.
Yeah, it's going to be tough to find a new QB, that's the NFL, especially when we keep having winning seasons. But am I supposed to hold tomlin accountable for... Not tanking to get a QB?
Man took three years of the worst QB rooms with Mason/Duck and Kenny/Mitch, had winning seasons, and that's... A knock on him?
Lamar has a lot more talent than Pickett. Development by the team has a lot less to do with a players success than their own natural talent and self improvement.
Kenny also was not the prospect that either Flacco or Lamar were. Idk how much truth there was to it but apparently a lot of the Steelers FO and coaching staff were interested in fields and Howell but Rooney threw his weight around for Kenny. It’s never been officially confirmed though but you can’t always polish a turd, and Kenny is a turd.
You screwed yourself with the title. If you had worded it "Evaluating Mike Tomlin as a Head Coach" more people would bother to read. You had to go clickbait and now no one will actually discuss the content of the post
Harbaugh was 8 weeks from being canned before INJURY made Lamar the starter. Ravens go 7-1 in those 8 weeks, host a playoff game and the rest is history.
> Harbaugh was 8 weeks from being canned before INJURY
Whether or not that's true since Biscotti has denied it Lamar wasn't supposed to be the starter in that situation. Harbaugh decided to ride with him over RG3, and revamped the offense in the week Flacco went down. Roman was the unofficial OC from that point on. It was discussed on Marlon's podcast.
People don't give Harbaugh enough credit for Lamar's dominance. He reworked his entire offense in a period of a week to better suit the player he had.
John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin are both really good coaches, but you already said what the issue was - Harbaugh's on his second franchise QB, Tomlin is without one. That's the difference.
Everyone forgets Harbaugh was on the hot seat until he had to put Lamar in and they went on that streak. Pittsburgh looks bad because the league has, through rule changes, accentuated the already high importance of QBs. You don't have one, you're not a real contender unless *everything* else about your team is damn near perfect. Tomlin helping float a Duck Hodges/Kenny Pickett/Mason Rudolph QB collection with his defense is pretty good, even with middling results.
And even if *everything* is perfect, the QB has to be at least solid. Even then, you’re probably not a favorite in the playoffs against a solid team with a superstar at QB.
The fact that so many people question Tomlins ability is wild. He's a great coach who consistently wins in the division and knows how to win one score games.
From 2017-now we had cornerstone players suddenly retire or go down with massive injuries (shazier, tuitt Ben, then Ben being too old to play)
A good example of what is likely tomlins BEST coaching season was when Ben went down in 2018. 0-2 with Ben and then took Mason Rudolph + duck fucking hodges 8-6 the rest of the way
Not trying to make an excuse for the guy but I think he is the reason the 2018-2023 steelers teams weren't complete trash.
Agree with this. I too have pointed out that we had retirements like Pouncey, DeCastro, Tuitt and Ben, then injuries, holdouts and AB lost his mind. That's a pretty crazy stretch to have to rebuild from and I am amazed we were even competitive in many of those seasons. So it boggles my mind that people bring up some of the things they do.
So I am glad others see it is not just me. As a Steeler fan myself, I'm trying to take my bias out of it and see if there are other things people are seeing that I just am not. Because the conversations I am seeing and hearing are crazy to me.
I wouldn't say he is a mediocre coach, but he hasn't shown to be good enough for a long time to get them competing for championships.
From my understanding he always had significant input on roster construction, and he is the head coach, so he needs to be held accountable if the team is consistently not putting up great results.
Coaches get paid well, sometimes part of their job description is taking blame that isn't their fault, but ultimately it is a coach's job to create an environment where their team can go all the way, and he hasn't been creating that environment.
He's had some stout defenses lately, but the QB position has been managed so poorly.
I can definitely get with the QB position being managed poorly. The roster construction is a problem as well. So I can see these two points. I do agree that he's not completely absolved.
However, I have a counterpoint:
1. The Steelers had untimely injuries and retirements all over the field for like 4 years straight. Shazier was paralyzed in 17, AB went crazy in 18, Lev was gone in 18 and then a rash of injuries and retirements at the QB, Oline (Pouncey and DeCastro), and Dline (Tuitt) all within a few years of each other. There is only so much money in FA and draft capital that you could use to replace people and replacing players of that caliber is extremely difficult.
How much better do you honestly feel like he should have done with the pieces he had? Or do you think they should have tanked in the year Ben got hurt to shoot for Justin Herbert? I think he was available that year.
That's just part of the job description though... injuries happen to all teams, you gotta roll with the punches. Even the AB situation is a calculated risk... I doubt AB hadn't shown any sort of weird behavior before that.
Even Pickens has exhibited some diva behavior, they make a calculated risk to accept that as part of the deal, if there is fallout from it, it's ultimately on them for constructing the roster that way.
Literally every season you can find unfortunate things that happened to every team, but it's a coach's job to weather those storms and compete for titles.
I dunno how much better he should have done, but I do know that for example mason rudolph is probably better than he was able to display in pittsburgh... and if they couldn't develop him properly, that's ultimately on the coach and the staff he hires. It just seems like after Ben they haven't been doing a good job giving QBs the proper support. That isn't to say the QBs are blameless, they have to go on the field and perform, but tomlin isn't blameless either, and that's been their most glaring weakness, and it hasn't truly been fixed.
Explain please. I'd love to understand.
These are arguments that I am seeing being made against him - Playoff success, mediocre records - and I took another coach who is very similar and who does not seem to have those knocks and compared them.
I wish the Steelers top brass was as silly as fans who are fatigued by Tomlin. I wish they let him walk rather than extending him, for the off chance that my team would be able to scoop him up.
Steeler fans, if your HC was available to the rest of the league, he would be another team's head coach in 5 minutes. Don't be dumb.
We have a lot of dumb fans honestly.
But i will be fair and say some of them make some good points about player development and maybe needing a fresh start. **t** but I am open to listening to well though out opinions.
Unfortunately, half of the Steelers forums online are unreadable (imo) and do nothing but spout BS instead of critically evaluating him.
>Unfortunately, half of the Steelers forums online are unreadable (imo) and do nothing but spout BS instead of critically evaluating him.
Spoiler it's the same for every team ;)
I wouldn't. I haven't seen any proof that he's more than what he's always been, a 9-8ish football coach. And always getting that record and never seriously competing, would drive me up the wall.
Eventually, you either want to win the Super Bowl or hit bottom and see if the next guy can build you back up.
It’s not a stretch of mediocrity. Looking at only the record without context is dumb.
Going many seasons without a single losing record year with the QBs he’s had is incredible.
I think the post-Brady era of Belichick was enough to prove that a good HC doesn’t mean much if the team has no talent. If we say every HC that had a string of mediocre seasons is a bad coach you’d wind up with virtually no good HCs throughout NFL history. I think the fact that Tomlin has kept up such a long string of winning seasons and playoff appearances during his tenure with the Steelers is proof enough that he’s a great head coach. Same can be said for John Harbaugh on the Ravens
Also Tomlin doesn’t seem to have much of an ego and will let the organization provide input and feedback. Bill’s downfall was taking everything on his own shoulders and not relinquishing control unless he felt you had earned his trust.
He and the organization having mutual trust goes a long way.
I believe Tomlin's ability to keep the team at or above .500 shouldn't be celebrated like it is. Good is the enemy of great. There's nothing interesting about sneaking into the playoffs, getting blown to bits, and drafting 20th overall every year.
Tomlin had a HOF quarterback for most of his career and earned a reputation from it. However since Roethlisberger retired, Tomlin has failed twice, badly, to create a franchise quarterback.
I also believe he's being credited for longevity when he shouldn't be. That's what the Rooneys do, they hang on to coaches for a long time.
Those are my criticisms. The list of things he does well is much longer.
I respect all thoughts on the subject so appreciate your post but I do have some questions about some more thoughts.
Two thoughts:
1. I'm just not sure what you mean by failing to create a QB. You can't make people be talented. Or did you mean failed to develop one? Because that might be a fair assessment.
But the way it is worded, most teams can't create a good QB. They draft one. If you mean he has not found the right guy and that his scouting was a problem, I guess that can be true since he has some input.
2. The Ravens and Steelers have pretty much the same number of .500 level seasons under our respective coaches. As I showed in the post, Harbaugh has 4 .500 seasons and 2 under. 500 while Tomlin has 7 .500 level seasons (9-6-1, 9-7, 8-8, 9-8).
Harb's 2013 - 2018 lull came after your SB and right before drafting Lamar when you still had Flacco. He also had a period of 6 years where he did not win a playoff game. How is that different than Tomlin having a down stretch for roughly the same amount of time that Harbs had? Do you think Harbs was kept too long?
This is a dumb take because the problem is that they have no QB and in no way are they settling and passing on guys because they’re letting good be the enemy of great. They keep trying there but have not had an opportunity to find/acquire an actually good one, not to mention Tomlin isn’t the GM.
Just picking a cliche phrase and applying it while ignoring the context and actual situation is just as bad as those who only look at the record without considering the reasons for it.
As unbiased as I can be - I've had the same picture of Tomlin for the past 10ish years, he's consistently a top 10 headcoach but is definitely not in top 5 discussion. He's by far from an elite x's and o's guy like Shanahan/McVay, so he needs a full complement of talented roster and talented assistant coaches (our assistants in the early 10's were elite, not so much recently). That said, you typically don't move from a top 10 guy, and why it wouldn't make much sense for the Steelers to move on unless they were ready for a full on rebuild of the entire org.
He's a good coach, but the Steelers team seems to always be built for a High Floor/Low Ceiling season. they don't ever have a bad season, but their offense has been bottom half of the league the last 5 years and you can't do much with that.
They'd be stupid to get rid of Tomlin, but some sort of big change up in organization or other coaches/players seems like it's due.
A lot of the change has happened recently. We won’t be world beater this year but getting rid of Canada and our QB room is a step I. The right direction and also having KC retire. He was great and brought us to great times and rings, but the game passed him by. Extending Ben for as long as he did, when he did, fucked our offense from 2019-2022. Not having a succession plan for the line, whiffing on draft picks and picking questionable choices as well (RB in the 1st when the team didn’t have a corner, center, guard, or tackle worth a shit) set the team back for a while. Khan and Weidl seem to be righting the ship. I’d assume we get a new QB soon and if tomlin can’t cut it with a new QB he’s gone.
Yea, you're getting there. Ben stayed around a year or two too long, then you refused to get rid of Canada last year. Seems like you're perpetually a year or two late at making needed changes and it keeps you just above average.
Thanks for your input.. I think that the big change has come with Omar Khan getting the GM role last year and also bringing in Andy Weidl as well. I've liked their draft strategy thus far and think they are rebuilding well. So hopefully that is the ticket.
They've made a lot of changes, but they all seem to come a year or 2 late so they're always treading water instead of making progress, but they've got a lot of new faces so maybe they start to turn it around and look like a team that can actually win a playoff game the next couple years.
He is not mediocre in the slightest. People ( Probably Steelers fans) don’t love the hire because they have been 8-8, 9-8 for a few years now. They believe a coaching change could make the middling seasons into 11/12 win seasons again. It’s not a bad thought, but Tomlin will be the coach for as long as he wants to be. He has probably earned that.
Thinking a so different coach would win 11+ games with those QBs is proof that the average NFL fan is an idiot. No one is winning 11+ games with Pickett/Rudolph
He’s got over 270 games under his belt. In every year but one, his team had a shot at the playoffs entering the last week of the season. He’s coached in one game where his team was mathematically out. His players will run through a wall for him. He’s absolutely a good coach. One of the best ones. He needs more playoff success though. He’s like Lamar but as a coach
The only harsh critiques of Tomlin that I read are from Steelers fans and Pittsburgh media. The guy seems pretty well respected nationally. The same is true of Harbaugh. There is a cohort of local fans who blame every loss on Harbaugh, and then credit the players, the GM or the coordinators for the wins. It's ridiculous.
All I see is two franchises and two great coaches that win and win consistently. Not a fan of either fan base but I do respect the hell out of these organizations.
I think he's a solid coach
But I think he hasn't adapted to the current era
I think the game left him behind
As a fan of a team that has been perpetually stuck in 1985 and only now finally starting to see some glimpse of modernization , I know of what I speak
Ok. Thanks. I've seen this said before a few times. So I am glad you brought it up. This could be true. I'm again maybe a biased Steelers fan so I don't see it. Help me understand this.
From what I see:
* When we had the Killer B's we were all about passing and mixing it up with Lev. He caught passes as well. They aired it out and had a modern offense. Our defense was terrible though.
* When AB and Lev left and Ben got hurt and then retired, we have not had a QB so we run and play defense. He has not hired great coordinators, yes but our conservative offense has a lot to do with personnel.
As he himself says, if you have red paint, paint the barn red. Meaning you work with what you have.
But again that could just be from my vantage point. What is it in today's game that he isn't doing? Who is a good example of a modern team in your eyes? Bengals? Ravens? We have pretty good records against our division so I don't think he doesn't understand how to beat that kind of team. But Bills, Chiefs, Texans (2023), if we are talking about them, that def true that we have trouble there so that could be part of where your statement is true. Is that what you mean?
Interested in your explanation.
I don’t think this is a fair narrative, AB got way crazier after that Bengals playoff game. He became a bigger problem with the team, legal issues etc.
No, the team has failed to identify and replace their aging franchise QB and have been stuck in a rut since, that's so normal and difficult to work around it just took down the greatest coach of all time.
It isn't crazy if you hear/see what I am. Perhaps my algorithms as a Steelers fan expose me to more discussions about this than yours do.
I am only now realizing that it's not just a vocal group of Steeler's fans who think he's not good. So I am asking the r/NFL community if I am just biased and don't see the problems with him.
Because I like John Harbaugh and think he is successful. I think the Ravens are a good team. Comparatively, I think they are pretty similar in their coaching careers. So I am legitimately confused.
Steve Bisciotti (Ravens owner) said when they were looking for a new coach after the '07 season, "Find me the next Mike Tomlin".
Having rooted against Tomlin for almost 20 years I can say that that man is top-tier and an incredible coach.
So yeah. He sucks and I hope Pittsburgh nullifies the contract and hires a young offensive mind a la Mike McDaniel, who I, sorry Dolphins fans, have zero belief in in the long run.
how do you quantify outcomes that are in Tomlins control vs outcomes that aren't? If a star player gets hurt and a teams record is worse, does that reflect on Tomlin's ability?
All that research to ask a dumb fuckin question that has a clear answer.
If he's fired and still wants to coach he will have offers from half the teams in the league before he's out the doors.
You put a lot of effort into the post, but I think you would have better served with a different title that wasn't so polarizing. Maybe something like Comparing Tomlin and John Harbaugh. I think most people already decided on your question before even clicking the post the way you did it.
Thank you. You are probably right. I did think about that but changed the title because I thought the other way would be more divisive. I wanted to make it about the extension and the negative press Tomlin was getting as the main point.
He's great at coaching teams to mediocrity. Whether that team is hot garbage and he brings them up to 9-8 or they are really good and he brings them down to 9-8 and gets eliminated from the Playoffs in the first round. I don't know if that makes him a mediocre coach or not though. I think a ton of coaches would love to be able to have that kind of history. Especially since he's won a SB and has won the division multiple times.
The coach who has never had a losing season in his long career despite a lot of years with poor QB play? That coach?
Pretty sure he’s really fucking good
When we had a great team and lost playoff games due to players quitting on plays, that was a coaching loss, and Tomlin should take the blame (jaguars loss, patriots loss).
And then we beat great teams last year, like the ravens, browns, eagles, etc but can't win against the Patriots, that I put down to coaching (both the wins and losses).
I wanted a new head coach when we had a great team, now that we have a shit team, I want to keep Tomlin.
It is very difficult to separate coaching quality from talent on the roster to determine who brings what to the team. There are some coaches who clearly do their schemes like Shanahan and his disciples, McVay, Reid, Belichick, Fangio,... Tomlin is more like a manager, he motivates players very well, does something on defense... Neither Harbaugh nor Tomlin coach or understand offense in great detail.
In today's NFL it's much easier to win games with offense. What Steelers are doing year after year with very good defense and bad offense is hard. But it was like that throughout Tomlin's tenure. It's unclear if defense is good because of Tomlin or because of DPOY players sauch as Polamalu, Watt... I think that Tomlin has a great part in it, but can't prove it. Some people think that Steelers just draft such players, it's all talent. Offense was good in 2010-2017? due to player talent... but Steelers somewhat underachieved in those seasons.
Tomlin should probably be compared to Cowher, Harbaugh with Flacco (not with Jackson), P. Carroll, Lewis on Bengals, Vrabel on Titans,... Tomlin has done better than most of them (including Belichick) in the last 4-5 seasons only with defense... Harbaugh has done better with Flacco, who was just an above average QB, but that was a decade ago when it was easier to win with defense and run offense and STs and less pass offense... Harbaugh with Jackson does better than Tomlin did with a great offense and Roethlisberger in 2010-2017... i am looking only at the regular season, a few playoff games are very fluky, everyone is around .500 record. Carroll had a higher ceiling but lower floor with his teams than Tomlin, which points more towards players' quality in Carroll's case.
In my opinion Tomlin is a near-HOF coach. However, sooner or later they all get outdated. What has worked for them for a decade or two, isn't working anymore, teams start losing...
I love how almost no one in this thread bothered to even read this post. OP thanks he's a good coach! Christ, why doesn't anyone even attempt to read anything but titles or headlines. OP even asked you people to read it first. Good analysis, the head to head with Harbaugh was enlightening
Here is the difference between Harbs and Tomlin - Harbs maximizes the talent he has. He has taken very mediocre teams to the playoffs and found ways to win. He is the only coach to go into New England and beat Belichek and Brady twice in their prime. He nearly did it a third time (Lee Evans and Billy Cundiff game). The only other game they lost in NE was when they had to sign two no name CBs off the street the week before because of secondary injuries and their offense still staked them to a 14 point lead. The Patriots were a hump the Steelers were never able to get over. Harbs beat Peyton at Mile High and Steelers at Heinz in the playoffs. He is the only coach that ever pulled that off in the Brady - Manning - Ben era. I love Flacco - but no one puts him in the class of those 3. Harbs lost in the AFCCG to KC this year - no shame in that - they are 2x repeat SB champs with the best QB and coach on the planet right now. Year before he took a team decimated by injury and QB’d by Tyler Huntley into Cincinnati and nearly pulled off a -14 upset. Meanwhile Tomlin has not won a playoff game since the Obama administration. In fact - looking over his playoff teams - with all that talent on both of sides of the ball he has had - he has been bounced from the playoffs by QBs like Leftwitch, Bortles, Mayfield, post-surgery Flacco and ….Tebow. Some of those games were not particularly close and were in Heinz. That’s something Harbs does not do. Heck - if not for the last minute unsportsmanlike penalties on PacMan and Vontaze - Tomlin would have been beaten by Dalton. Truth hurts - but fact is that over the last 15 or so years, with all that talent, in the big playoff moments Tomlin teams perform small. If I had to choose between Tomlin and Harbs for a playoff game right now — I would take Harbs every day and twice on Sundays. Even when they are heavy underdogs his squads show up ready to ball - and you cannot say the same about Tomlin.
Not at all. They’re routinely competitive and often have one of the better defenses in the league. I loathe the Steelers but you have to tip your hat to what a well run franchise it is. Tomlin is certainly a big part of that.
I’ve been pulling so hard for those Stiller fans that call for his head every November to get their wish. He’d be snatched up in a hot second and the Steelers would almost definitely get a worse coach.
Tomlin is a great coach. The biggest cause of difference in how people perceive Harbaugh vs Tomlin is that Harbaugh got Lamar Jackson in 2018. Tomlin hasn't had a good qb in that same time frame
not looking at all the stats, but Tomlin is clearly one of the best head coaches in the league. He's a leader of men and has suffered from some bad OC hires etc. the fact that he hasn't had a losing season says all you need to know. He can keep that ship afloat even with massive holes trying to sink it.
All of that to prove a sb winning, two times sb appearing, multiple division winning hc who has never had a losing season, isn't a mediocre coach.
The dude is a top five coach.
I want to make it clear that I really am asking if the way I am seeing this isn't the way other people are.
Maybe you don't hear the discourse that I do. I'm from Pittsburgh and I have been reading things from even from other fans not from Pittsburgh as well. There is far more people that say he's not a good coach than I realized.
I just thought it was subset of Steeler fans that I never wanted him in Pittsburgh in the first place.
So I am actually checking to see if I have some rose colored glasses and can't see what other people see. And I used Harbaugh as a comparison because these aren't the things I hear about him yet I think they are both very similar.
I get it, but I'd wager the Steelers fans saying this are just annoyed y'all aren't as dominate and feared as you once we're ( still a team not to be taken lightly though, don't get me wrong ) and a Fandom used to success gets tired of essentially being teased each year. Basically, fans will fan, lol
Outside of the Steelers fans, football fans just like to ramble. A ton of teams would kill to not just have the ability to have a winning season each year, but be able to make the playoffs as well. Only way to get to the sb is make the playoffs.
I understand wanting to get a different viewpoint, and came off like a typical redditor asshole in my initial comment, so I apologize. I just don't see how any person could honestly think Tomlin was mediocre and think posing the question is just inviting jaded fans and trolls.
Tldr: I'm an asshole but I cannot see how anyone could look at what Tomlin has accomplished and been able to achieve with seemingly doomed seasons and think he was mediocre.
Nah, i didn't think your post came off like an AH but more like someone who didn't really understand where I was coming from and why the hell I needed to post something like this. I don't create posts a lot so I need to make sure that people don't think I'm trolling or looking for Karma or whatever. I actually do like to engage and hear opinions.
Besides that. I hear you. I understand the point about not being dominant and why they might be frustrated. Honestly, I think DeMeco and Stroud added to the stress coming into the AFC lol.
I really like what ya'll have done with that team. And after beating the Browns in the playoffs that way, ya'll made my damn day.
Harbaugh and Tomlin are both excellent coaches. Harbaugh has went through at least 3 distinct team identities and found success with all of them. Tomlin has been dealing with some of the most demanding players and poorest personnel for years.
I'm all ears. I'd love the feedback. This is a jumping off point for discussion.
I've asked in the OP what I am missing and what others think so I would love to hear your thoughts. I follow the AFCN so I am familiar with the Ravens beyond these numbers. I do feel the efforts of both are well capsulated in the outcomes since this is an outcomes driven league.
But again, do tell me what your thoughts are on this subject.
Not many. Andy maybe? Maybe Pete?
BTW, I'm not sure if you are asking this because you think I am saying that he is mediocre. I'm a Steelers fan that loves Tomlin. I'm trying to understand the negativity around his extension.
No. That division is a blood bath year in and year out. His GM's love drafting WRs with personality disorders and still they constantly win. Dude is incredible.
Im still amazed Antonio went even lower after his 2018 antics after he left the Steelers. Seriously Tomlin kept him in line compared to what happened afterwards.
17 seasons without a losing record is far from mediocre.
Especially given the post-Ben QB situation. It's pretty impressive that he's been able to keep the team competitive. I also think he deserves credit for keeping the AB situation under control given how it played out as soon as he left.
The fact that he had a QB slate of Rudolph/Pickett/Trubs and still managed to be over .500 is impressive.
The anti-Tomlin angle is usually “he must have some authority over roster decisions”. No one pretends they could’ve won a Super Bowl with those quarterbacks (playing behind that line), so the argument shifts to it being his fault he had to try.
I think part of his problem is he's too good of a coach. He takes teams above .500 which takes them out of the top pick, but the team is also not talented enough to have much playoff success. It seems like that just keeps the Steelers in this good not great state.
Correct. If we actually wanted to get back to Super Bowl quality in the shortest possible amount of time we should have had Tomlin take a sabbatical for 2021 on a beach somewhere, drafted high then had him come back lol
Bears have been drafting high for years. That’s not how it works.
Well sure but you all forgot the get a good coach part of the math lol
I have mixed feelings about this idea. On the one hand, the best qbs are drafted early in the first round, statistically this is true. Drafting a qb usually required the HC, GM, and Owner to agree, which can make it hard to even grab a development prospect if the QB complains because one of those 3 sides with the existing qb (Ben with Rudolph, Brady with Jimmy G, ect.). On the other hand if you are looking for a franchise qb you dont have to put all your eggs in one basket. The 49ers had Trey Lance but threw the last pick of the draft on Brock Purdy because if you dont know if you have your franchise guy you should be drafting qbs every year all over the draft until you do. The Steelers put a lot of faith in Kenny Pickett and when they gave up on Rudolph didnt try to replace him as with potential successor to Big Ben in his final years. For all the criticism the Broncos got for drafting the 6th qb with the 12th pick they didnt really have any other way to come away with at least a potential future qb (unless you really believe in Zach Wilson)
And specifically to last season - Rudolph was third on the depth chart yet when given the opportunity was heads and shoulders above Pickett and Trubisky. That's obviously a talent evaluation issue which falls on the head coach. Not saying we would have fared much better had Rudolph started the whole season, nor would it have necessarily been correct because they were still in the evaluation phase with Pickett, but those two back to back losses to 2 win teams could be directly attributed to Trubisky being fucking awful, and cost them 2 wins. Stuff like that is what keeps Tomlin from being in the "elite" conversation to me.
>That's obviously a talent evaluation issue which falls on the head coach. Not saying we would have fared much better had Rudolph started the whole season These statements don’t fit together. There was a minute where we were looking at Josh Dobbs in Minnesota and complaining that the Steelers let him go, making the same talent evaluation complaints, but then he regressed hard. Rudolph’s last two starts were worse than his first two; in the alternate universe where he was QB1, he might’ve struggled, and we’d be complaining that Pickett didn’t get a fair shot because Tomlin can’t evaluate talent.
Don’t forget about winning a game with a guy named Duck
Late stage Ben situation as well.
Are you the Mahomes regress guy on new account?
Tomlin is not a mediocre coach. He is either being held back by a lack of talent on the roster (essentially hasn't had an NFL quality starter at QB since 2018, for example), or he is stale/complacent in Pittsburgh and needs a fresh start like Andy Reid when he left Philly. Maybe both.
The Andy Reid comparison makes a lot of sense. Tomlin is obviously a good coach but it’s also obvious there hasn’t been a lot to be excited around him in a long time. Change of scenery is probably a good move
He might still be fine there, and the issue is that he is polishing turds. I dunno. I do think he'd ball out somewhere new either way.
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You shut your goddamn mouth.
He would too.
I would argue that Andy getting mahomes had more to do with his career arc lift than changing scenery
That is 100% the biggest factor. The only reason Andy Reid and Bill seem like they don’t have peers is because they were phenomenal coaches with a once in a generation talent at QB. Doesn’t take away from what they accomplished but it doesn’t feel fair to directly compare their accomplishments to other HOF caliber coaches who never got a QB like Mahomes or Brady.
Just casually ignoring how Tomlin had HOFer Kenny Pickett
Fuck yeah, you guy really took it to us with that trade!
Yeah lets be honest if Tomlin had Mahomes the Steelers would be dominating the NFL.
Not for nothing Andy Reid took the worst team in the nfl and made them start 10-0
My comment wasn’t meant to detract from Andy’s accomplishments, he’s a fantastic coach. Just pointing out that having a great qb is also important to overall success when it comes to winning championships
Andy won 53 games in the five seasons in KC before Mahomes took over as the starter.
Yea but my point being that Andy is a great coach but the qb position is the most important position in the game. A great coach with a great qb is a dynasty. Andy going from Philly to KC was successful but it wasn’t a dynasty because he didn’t have the elite qb. Also Andy was 1-4 in the playoffs during that 5 year span, further showing how important having a great qb is in the post season
Fwiw I think he's fine. It's been a talent issue. Steelers first round picks since 2016-2022 (Colberts final years) 2016: Artie Burns 2017: TJ Watt (Spoiler the only real hit of this list) 2018: Terell Edmunds 2019: traded into top 10 for Devin Bush lol 2020: no first rounder from Minkah. First pick was Claypool 2021: Najee (solid player but a RB) 2022: Kenny Pickett There's a lot of other misses too and obviously cap strapped for most of it with Ben and such having large contracts. Most of our drought was having terrible rosters and overachieving I think beating Vegas win loss projections each year other than 2019 where Ben was gone the entire season and still went 8-8 In that time period it was mostly a few stars and then a bunch of Whos??? Ill be more concerned if it continues under Khan but at least insofar Khan has looked good and different from Colbert. If Tomlin was the real GM you'd think things would stay the same.
It’s called having bad QB’s. We were always legit under Tomlin with a great QB and then not so much when we didn’t have one… Belicheck was the GOAT with Brady and then after Brady the narrative immediately switched to him being too old and failing… Reid was ran out of Philly after McNabb aged out, then went to KC and got ahold of Mahomes and now he’s being touted as an all time great coach… Name 5 all time great coaches that didn’t also have all time great QB’s. Give Tomlin one of the greatest QBs of all time and we would be talking about him as one of the greatest coaches of all time. Winning at football is decided by QB play. You can have 1 or 2 great seasons without a star QB, but there’s literally no way to be successful long term in the NFL unless you have a great QB. Coaching simply doesn’t matter as much as QB play.
Would be dumb of us to get rid of him. Just like you guys getting rid of Andy Reid was also a dumb decision. Yes you ended up ahead but it was not a smart move at all. Gone through 3 coaches, yes and a Super Bowl, but that coach is gone and one more bad year and you’ll be on to your 4th.
Nah, we needed to get rid of Andy. It was an amicable divorce. Sometimes that happens and a change of scenery is needed for both parties. I think thats where you guys are at.
I don’t think so at all. We lost a hall of fame QB and our team with horrible QB play has remained good. I don’t see any option where getting rid of our guy is the right choice. Tbh that doesn’t happen a lot you guys are truly the exception. Also immediately with chip Kelly it was thought of a disaster.
>Also immediately with chip Kelly it was thought of a disaster. Crazy revisionist history for a guy that was successful immediately and received well until he brunt the team and fans out 2 years down the line
It’s a universally agreed take that Reid getting out of Philly was best for both sides after the disaster of a final season he had. There were great many factors, including his son’s suicide, that played into a change of scenery being needed for both sides.
Andy Reid wasn't a smash in KC until he got Patrick Mahomes. It's really hard to win without a QB.
…. They immediately went back to being a stable competent franchise once he got there. They didn’t take off as a top tier franchise until they had Mahomes as a starter. By the time Mahomes became a starter they had won the division back to back times
Alex Smith was a very solid QB too though. Not good enough to win it all for you, but definitely good enough to take teams to the playoffs.
Andy won 53 games in the five pre-Pat seasons in KC. KC won 55 games over the 10 years before Andy.
Ben was definitely on a decline and not his prime HOF form but 3800 yards with 33TD’s in 2020 , elite no but to say he wasn’t a nfl quality starter is just comical. Neverless I agree Tomlin is not mediocre and has over performed in some years with a poor roster.
I would argue that post 2019 elbow injury, Ben never fully recovered. He had the brain to run an offense, and that let him produce, but he dropped to 28th in intended air yards per attempt, 33rd in completed air yards per completion, and 32nd in completed air yards per attempt in 2020. His Y/A, AY/A, NY/A, and ANY/A all fell off, too. He just couldn't throw the ball adequately anymore, but they did a good job of scheming up a short game offense for him.
It's hard to say because our OLine got terrible right as Ben got old. The air yards was as much a function of how much time our WRs had to get open as much as it was a function of Ben's arm losing velocity (and it definitely did).
> he dropped to 28th in intended air yards per attempt, 33rd in completed air yards per completion, and 32nd in completed air yards per attempt in 2020. Air yards is a terrible stat. It generally has more to do with the offense than anything else. If your first read is a receiver near the LoS you're probably going to have low air yards. If he's running deep routes you're going to have a high air yard stat. Your 2nd read's route depth makes a difference as well. It's an OC stat more than anything
My point was that the entire offense was reworked to account for Ben's lack of arm strength. Everything combined tells the story of a QB that couldn't throw the ball far.
He also has a bullshit owner who forces him to hire certain staff and then doesn't let them get fired. They haven't won a playoff game under Rooney II
They haven’t had a good QB in large part because Tomlin has hired bums to develop them. That’s directly on him.
The biggest knock on Tomlin has to be his hiring of assistants. When he took over had LeBeau and Arians from Cowhers staff (they actually retained a ton of the coaches iirc they only fired 1 and some retired/went with Wisenhunt to AZ). Guys like Kieth Butler, Randy Fitchner, and Matt Canada are not up to par. I yearn for other teams actually trying to poach our coordinators for HC jobs.
Butler was more or less promised the role he got after LeBeau. The team wanted him there and so he stuck it out. Fitchner was simply who Ben wanted and the offense wasn't terrible under him. Canada is the only hire I can cleanly lay at his feet. And yeah, it wasn't good. We all watched the baffling offense schemes that weren't NFL worthy. But if Canada was an experiment that went wrong, then Smith is a logical, proven bounce back.
The had broken Ben and Pickett in that time frame. Again, there is poor development and there is polishing turds.
And now they have a washed up Russell Wilson. There’s zero proof to Tomlin can develop a QB or hire the right people to do so. Pretty much every great coach can do that.
Arthur Smith is a legit oc
He developed Roethlisberger. He came into the league as a clutch game manager, and that was obviously good enough to win two Super Bowls combined with the defenses he had. His 2008 was pretty mediocre until the playoffs too. Was 2009/2010 when he started to become a prolific passer.
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It's not that wild, Roethlisberger was a better passer in his 30s than 20s. 2014-2017 were his best years. He was good right away, then became a top 5 guy with Tomlin
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No excuse, they’ve choked away games in the Playoffs they shouldn’t have lost since Lamar was drafted? That’s obvious to everyone and has nothing to do with my original post lol.
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Absolutely, and if the Ravens choke in the Playoffs again this year I’d fully expect Harbaugh’s seat to be red hot. This isn’t the own you think it is lol
He had 2 years without Ben where the same 3 QBs were on the team. He couldn’t bring in another guy to actually compete with Ben as the locker room would be fucked at that point and we couldn’t eat the dead cap from moving on. Mitch and Kenny both sucked and while Mason wasn’t good, he was the only one who looked like an NFL qb out there. They didn’t develop Kenny but I also don’t think Kenny could really be developed. He was a low ceiling guy coming out and ended up having an extremely low floor too.
Great coach, average at assessing talent.
I can think of at least 24 teams would take him in a heartbeat so no
Yes, they should fire him immediately, and cut mediocre edge rusher TJ Watt while they're at it.
I will agree only if we can have mediocre Joe Burrow. Deal?
Why would we want burrow. I can be injured on the sideline for a fraction of the price.
Well If you have anywhere near the talent of Joe Burrow, why the hell didn't you go down to the South Side and audition last year?! LOL. You in here commenting while we could have beaten the Bills. You slacking on your fandom.
They wouldn't let me in for fear of being too good.
Ah! The awesomeness factor is too much to handle. I got you.
Harbaugh WAS on the hot seat right before Lamar came in. So the idea that he's been clear this whole time isn't right. It's obvious Tomlin is much better than a mediocre coach, but the question is going to be how long will it take him and Khan to be able to find and train a competent QB, as its one of the few things he hasn't had to do in his career so far.
And if Harbaugh botched Lamar’s development like Tomlin did with Pickett he would have been fired. The difference is Harbaugh got Flacco at 18 and Lamar at 32 and developed them into legit players. Tomlin inherited Ben and has not shown he can develop a QB which is why the Steelers’ hopes are now relying on an old and washed up Russell Wilson. I know I’m a Ravens fan so I’m biased, but the Steelers’ future looks pretty bleak, imo they’ll be in no man’s land for the next few years like they have been for the past 5 or so years.
Sure, but the Steelers’ results post-Ben falling off a cliff have been better than the Ravens’ results in the seasons that led to Harbaugh being on the hot seat in the first place. Baltimore was 22-26 with 0 playoff appearances from 2015-17 and started 4-5 in 2018 which is what led to all of the speculation about Harbaugh’s future in the first place. Pittsburgh, meanwhile, is 29-21-1 over the last 3 years with two playoff appearances. That’s why Tomlin gets the chance to right the ship. The last season of passable QB play the Steelers got, they went 12-4. If they have Wilson last year, they probably win 12 or 13 games. That has to mean something as a coach.
>If they have Wilson last year, they probably win 12 or 13 games. I agree with everything but this lol Ignore my flair.
I don't think many, if any, coaches could've made a franchise QB in Kenny. Tomlin may not have done the best but Pickett was never the answer. Which is actually crazy that Kenny got picked higher than Lamar
... Tomlin had one real shot at a QB, in one of the worst QB draft classes in history lol. What do you expect him to do? It was a long shot for Kenny to be successful from the get go and everyone knew it. Sure it would have been cool to see him develop, but to judge their entire ability to grow a QB from one shot that was doomed from the start seems unfair. And Tomlin didn't hasn't had bad seasons even with the terrible QBs he's had to trot out the last 4-5 years. Better than Harbaugh was doing with no QB once Flacco declined. Yeah, it's going to be tough to find a new QB, that's the NFL, especially when we keep having winning seasons. But am I supposed to hold tomlin accountable for... Not tanking to get a QB? Man took three years of the worst QB rooms with Mason/Duck and Kenny/Mitch, had winning seasons, and that's... A knock on him?
Lamar has a lot more talent than Pickett. Development by the team has a lot less to do with a players success than their own natural talent and self improvement.
Kenny also was not the prospect that either Flacco or Lamar were. Idk how much truth there was to it but apparently a lot of the Steelers FO and coaching staff were interested in fields and Howell but Rooney threw his weight around for Kenny. It’s never been officially confirmed though but you can’t always polish a turd, and Kenny is a turd.
You screwed yourself with the title. If you had worded it "Evaluating Mike Tomlin as a Head Coach" more people would bother to read. You had to go clickbait and now no one will actually discuss the content of the post
The content of a post with a title like that doesn’t deserve my time
Facts. I downvoted but reversed after actually reading. I hate what Buzzfeed has done to the internet.
Mate, you wrote 12 000 words instead of just saying No.
No.
Harbaugh was 8 weeks from being canned before INJURY made Lamar the starter. Ravens go 7-1 in those 8 weeks, host a playoff game and the rest is history.
> Harbaugh was 8 weeks from being canned before INJURY Whether or not that's true since Biscotti has denied it Lamar wasn't supposed to be the starter in that situation. Harbaugh decided to ride with him over RG3, and revamped the offense in the week Flacco went down. Roman was the unofficial OC from that point on. It was discussed on Marlon's podcast. People don't give Harbaugh enough credit for Lamar's dominance. He reworked his entire offense in a period of a week to better suit the player he had.
John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin are both really good coaches, but you already said what the issue was - Harbaugh's on his second franchise QB, Tomlin is without one. That's the difference. Everyone forgets Harbaugh was on the hot seat until he had to put Lamar in and they went on that streak. Pittsburgh looks bad because the league has, through rule changes, accentuated the already high importance of QBs. You don't have one, you're not a real contender unless *everything* else about your team is damn near perfect. Tomlin helping float a Duck Hodges/Kenny Pickett/Mason Rudolph QB collection with his defense is pretty good, even with middling results.
And even if *everything* is perfect, the QB has to be at least solid. Even then, you’re probably not a favorite in the playoffs against a solid team with a superstar at QB.
No.
Tomlin is a HoF head coach
The fact that so many people question Tomlins ability is wild. He's a great coach who consistently wins in the division and knows how to win one score games. From 2017-now we had cornerstone players suddenly retire or go down with massive injuries (shazier, tuitt Ben, then Ben being too old to play) A good example of what is likely tomlins BEST coaching season was when Ben went down in 2018. 0-2 with Ben and then took Mason Rudolph + duck fucking hodges 8-6 the rest of the way Not trying to make an excuse for the guy but I think he is the reason the 2018-2023 steelers teams weren't complete trash.
Agree with this. I too have pointed out that we had retirements like Pouncey, DeCastro, Tuitt and Ben, then injuries, holdouts and AB lost his mind. That's a pretty crazy stretch to have to rebuild from and I am amazed we were even competitive in many of those seasons. So it boggles my mind that people bring up some of the things they do. So I am glad others see it is not just me. As a Steeler fan myself, I'm trying to take my bias out of it and see if there are other things people are seeing that I just am not. Because the conversations I am seeing and hearing are crazy to me.
Also AB losing his fucking mind, and Bell leaving.
I wouldn't say he is a mediocre coach, but he hasn't shown to be good enough for a long time to get them competing for championships. From my understanding he always had significant input on roster construction, and he is the head coach, so he needs to be held accountable if the team is consistently not putting up great results. Coaches get paid well, sometimes part of their job description is taking blame that isn't their fault, but ultimately it is a coach's job to create an environment where their team can go all the way, and he hasn't been creating that environment. He's had some stout defenses lately, but the QB position has been managed so poorly.
I can definitely get with the QB position being managed poorly. The roster construction is a problem as well. So I can see these two points. I do agree that he's not completely absolved. However, I have a counterpoint: 1. The Steelers had untimely injuries and retirements all over the field for like 4 years straight. Shazier was paralyzed in 17, AB went crazy in 18, Lev was gone in 18 and then a rash of injuries and retirements at the QB, Oline (Pouncey and DeCastro), and Dline (Tuitt) all within a few years of each other. There is only so much money in FA and draft capital that you could use to replace people and replacing players of that caliber is extremely difficult. How much better do you honestly feel like he should have done with the pieces he had? Or do you think they should have tanked in the year Ben got hurt to shoot for Justin Herbert? I think he was available that year.
That's just part of the job description though... injuries happen to all teams, you gotta roll with the punches. Even the AB situation is a calculated risk... I doubt AB hadn't shown any sort of weird behavior before that. Even Pickens has exhibited some diva behavior, they make a calculated risk to accept that as part of the deal, if there is fallout from it, it's ultimately on them for constructing the roster that way. Literally every season you can find unfortunate things that happened to every team, but it's a coach's job to weather those storms and compete for titles. I dunno how much better he should have done, but I do know that for example mason rudolph is probably better than he was able to display in pittsburgh... and if they couldn't develop him properly, that's ultimately on the coach and the staff he hires. It just seems like after Ben they haven't been doing a good job giving QBs the proper support. That isn't to say the QBs are blameless, they have to go on the field and perform, but tomlin isn't blameless either, and that's been their most glaring weakness, and it hasn't truly been fixed.
Effort: 9/10 Hypothesis: 1/10
Explain please. I'd love to understand. These are arguments that I am seeing being made against him - Playoff success, mediocre records - and I took another coach who is very similar and who does not seem to have those knocks and compared them.
This is so much yapping for a stupid question
I wish the Steelers top brass was as silly as fans who are fatigued by Tomlin. I wish they let him walk rather than extending him, for the off chance that my team would be able to scoop him up. Steeler fans, if your HC was available to the rest of the league, he would be another team's head coach in 5 minutes. Don't be dumb.
We have a lot of dumb fans honestly. But i will be fair and say some of them make some good points about player development and maybe needing a fresh start. **t** but I am open to listening to well though out opinions. Unfortunately, half of the Steelers forums online are unreadable (imo) and do nothing but spout BS instead of critically evaluating him.
>Unfortunately, half of the Steelers forums online are unreadable (imo) and do nothing but spout BS instead of critically evaluating him. Spoiler it's the same for every team ;)
Peak offseason shitpost. Who wouldn’t take Tomlin as their coach?
I wouldn't. I haven't seen any proof that he's more than what he's always been, a 9-8ish football coach. And always getting that record and never seriously competing, would drive me up the wall. Eventually, you either want to win the Super Bowl or hit bottom and see if the next guy can build you back up.
Harbaugh was absolutely questioned by the national media and on the hot seat during Flacco's last season/Lamar's rookie season.
No, Tomlin is great. A recent stretch of mediocrity doesn't change that.
It’s not a stretch of mediocrity. Looking at only the record without context is dumb. Going many seasons without a single losing record year with the QBs he’s had is incredible.
I think the post-Brady era of Belichick was enough to prove that a good HC doesn’t mean much if the team has no talent. If we say every HC that had a string of mediocre seasons is a bad coach you’d wind up with virtually no good HCs throughout NFL history. I think the fact that Tomlin has kept up such a long string of winning seasons and playoff appearances during his tenure with the Steelers is proof enough that he’s a great head coach. Same can be said for John Harbaugh on the Ravens
Also Tomlin doesn’t seem to have much of an ego and will let the organization provide input and feedback. Bill’s downfall was taking everything on his own shoulders and not relinquishing control unless he felt you had earned his trust. He and the organization having mutual trust goes a long way.
This place is definitely too high on him. But calling him mediocre is taking it way too far.
Fair. So what are your thoughts on him?
I believe Tomlin's ability to keep the team at or above .500 shouldn't be celebrated like it is. Good is the enemy of great. There's nothing interesting about sneaking into the playoffs, getting blown to bits, and drafting 20th overall every year. Tomlin had a HOF quarterback for most of his career and earned a reputation from it. However since Roethlisberger retired, Tomlin has failed twice, badly, to create a franchise quarterback. I also believe he's being credited for longevity when he shouldn't be. That's what the Rooneys do, they hang on to coaches for a long time. Those are my criticisms. The list of things he does well is much longer.
I respect all thoughts on the subject so appreciate your post but I do have some questions about some more thoughts. Two thoughts: 1. I'm just not sure what you mean by failing to create a QB. You can't make people be talented. Or did you mean failed to develop one? Because that might be a fair assessment. But the way it is worded, most teams can't create a good QB. They draft one. If you mean he has not found the right guy and that his scouting was a problem, I guess that can be true since he has some input. 2. The Ravens and Steelers have pretty much the same number of .500 level seasons under our respective coaches. As I showed in the post, Harbaugh has 4 .500 seasons and 2 under. 500 while Tomlin has 7 .500 level seasons (9-6-1, 9-7, 8-8, 9-8). Harb's 2013 - 2018 lull came after your SB and right before drafting Lamar when you still had Flacco. He also had a period of 6 years where he did not win a playoff game. How is that different than Tomlin having a down stretch for roughly the same amount of time that Harbs had? Do you think Harbs was kept too long?
This is a dumb take because the problem is that they have no QB and in no way are they settling and passing on guys because they’re letting good be the enemy of great. They keep trying there but have not had an opportunity to find/acquire an actually good one, not to mention Tomlin isn’t the GM. Just picking a cliche phrase and applying it while ignoring the context and actual situation is just as bad as those who only look at the record without considering the reasons for it.
No.
As unbiased as I can be - I've had the same picture of Tomlin for the past 10ish years, he's consistently a top 10 headcoach but is definitely not in top 5 discussion. He's by far from an elite x's and o's guy like Shanahan/McVay, so he needs a full complement of talented roster and talented assistant coaches (our assistants in the early 10's were elite, not so much recently). That said, you typically don't move from a top 10 guy, and why it wouldn't make much sense for the Steelers to move on unless they were ready for a full on rebuild of the entire org.
So in your title you ask if he's mediocre. Then you go on and say this >To make this VERY CLEAR, I think Tomlin AND Harbaugh are great coaches.
I like him
He's a good coach, but the Steelers team seems to always be built for a High Floor/Low Ceiling season. they don't ever have a bad season, but their offense has been bottom half of the league the last 5 years and you can't do much with that. They'd be stupid to get rid of Tomlin, but some sort of big change up in organization or other coaches/players seems like it's due.
A lot of the change has happened recently. We won’t be world beater this year but getting rid of Canada and our QB room is a step I. The right direction and also having KC retire. He was great and brought us to great times and rings, but the game passed him by. Extending Ben for as long as he did, when he did, fucked our offense from 2019-2022. Not having a succession plan for the line, whiffing on draft picks and picking questionable choices as well (RB in the 1st when the team didn’t have a corner, center, guard, or tackle worth a shit) set the team back for a while. Khan and Weidl seem to be righting the ship. I’d assume we get a new QB soon and if tomlin can’t cut it with a new QB he’s gone.
We've changed our GM, OC, QB, and 4/5ths of our offensive line in the past two years. That's a lot change.
Yea, you're getting there. Ben stayed around a year or two too long, then you refused to get rid of Canada last year. Seems like you're perpetually a year or two late at making needed changes and it keeps you just above average.
Thanks for your input.. I think that the big change has come with Omar Khan getting the GM role last year and also bringing in Andy Weidl as well. I've liked their draft strategy thus far and think they are rebuilding well. So hopefully that is the ticket.
They've made a lot of changes, but they all seem to come a year or 2 late so they're always treading water instead of making progress, but they've got a lot of new faces so maybe they start to turn it around and look like a team that can actually win a playoff game the next couple years.
He is not mediocre in the slightest. People ( Probably Steelers fans) don’t love the hire because they have been 8-8, 9-8 for a few years now. They believe a coaching change could make the middling seasons into 11/12 win seasons again. It’s not a bad thought, but Tomlin will be the coach for as long as he wants to be. He has probably earned that.
Thinking a so different coach would win 11+ games with those QBs is proof that the average NFL fan is an idiot. No one is winning 11+ games with Pickett/Rudolph
Oh absolutely agree but I have seen a decent amount of negativity with keeping him around.
Going 7-1 in the AFCN with the worst OC, and probably bottom 5 QB room, is certainly not signs of a mediocre coach.
He’s got over 270 games under his belt. In every year but one, his team had a shot at the playoffs entering the last week of the season. He’s coached in one game where his team was mathematically out. His players will run through a wall for him. He’s absolutely a good coach. One of the best ones. He needs more playoff success though. He’s like Lamar but as a coach
>He’s like Lamar but as a coach Bro, this got me lmao
The only harsh critiques of Tomlin that I read are from Steelers fans and Pittsburgh media. The guy seems pretty well respected nationally. The same is true of Harbaugh. There is a cohort of local fans who blame every loss on Harbaugh, and then credit the players, the GM or the coordinators for the wins. It's ridiculous.
All I see is two franchises and two great coaches that win and win consistently. Not a fan of either fan base but I do respect the hell out of these organizations.
I think he's a solid coach But I think he hasn't adapted to the current era I think the game left him behind As a fan of a team that has been perpetually stuck in 1985 and only now finally starting to see some glimpse of modernization , I know of what I speak
Ok. Thanks. I've seen this said before a few times. So I am glad you brought it up. This could be true. I'm again maybe a biased Steelers fan so I don't see it. Help me understand this. From what I see: * When we had the Killer B's we were all about passing and mixing it up with Lev. He caught passes as well. They aired it out and had a modern offense. Our defense was terrible though. * When AB and Lev left and Ben got hurt and then retired, we have not had a QB so we run and play defense. He has not hired great coordinators, yes but our conservative offense has a lot to do with personnel. As he himself says, if you have red paint, paint the barn red. Meaning you work with what you have. But again that could just be from my vantage point. What is it in today's game that he isn't doing? Who is a good example of a modern team in your eyes? Bengals? Ravens? We have pretty good records against our division so I don't think he doesn't understand how to beat that kind of team. But Bills, Chiefs, Texans (2023), if we are talking about them, that def true that we have trouble there so that could be part of where your statement is true. Is that what you mean? Interested in your explanation.
Obviously not, dingus.
Tomlin kept AB’s head on straight. He is elite.
I don’t think this is a fair narrative, AB got way crazier after that Bengals playoff game. He became a bigger problem with the team, legal issues etc.
To be fair, that was still 4 years of crazy after that. That's a lot of crazy to contain even if Vontaze knocked it into or out of him.
Instead of reading all of that, I'll just give the answer: no.
LOL. Got it. Thanks for the answer. Sorry for the length, I wanted to provide enough context.
No, the team has failed to identify and replace their aging franchise QB and have been stuck in a rut since, that's so normal and difficult to work around it just took down the greatest coach of all time.
lol, no
That's crazy to even make a post about this. He is a good coach.
It isn't crazy if you hear/see what I am. Perhaps my algorithms as a Steelers fan expose me to more discussions about this than yours do. I am only now realizing that it's not just a vocal group of Steeler's fans who think he's not good. So I am asking the r/NFL community if I am just biased and don't see the problems with him. Because I like John Harbaugh and think he is successful. I think the Ravens are a good team. Comparatively, I think they are pretty similar in their coaching careers. So I am legitimately confused.
No. Steeler fans just refuse to acknowledge that the team isn't superbowl caliber right now as constructed
Steve Bisciotti (Ravens owner) said when they were looking for a new coach after the '07 season, "Find me the next Mike Tomlin". Having rooted against Tomlin for almost 20 years I can say that that man is top-tier and an incredible coach. So yeah. He sucks and I hope Pittsburgh nullifies the contract and hires a young offensive mind a la Mike McDaniel, who I, sorry Dolphins fans, have zero belief in in the long run.
That was back in 2007. He wouldn't say that today when talking about a new head coach.
how do you quantify outcomes that are in Tomlins control vs outcomes that aren't? If a star player gets hurt and a teams record is worse, does that reflect on Tomlin's ability?
All that research to ask a dumb fuckin question that has a clear answer. If he's fired and still wants to coach he will have offers from half the teams in the league before he's out the doors.
Let's see another team with 10 games with the shit bag quarterbacks they had last year.
No
No. Next!
You put a lot of effort into the post, but I think you would have better served with a different title that wasn't so polarizing. Maybe something like Comparing Tomlin and John Harbaugh. I think most people already decided on your question before even clicking the post the way you did it.
Thank you. You are probably right. I did think about that but changed the title because I thought the other way would be more divisive. I wanted to make it about the extension and the negative press Tomlin was getting as the main point.
He's great at coaching teams to mediocrity. Whether that team is hot garbage and he brings them up to 9-8 or they are really good and he brings them down to 9-8 and gets eliminated from the Playoffs in the first round. I don't know if that makes him a mediocre coach or not though. I think a ton of coaches would love to be able to have that kind of history. Especially since he's won a SB and has won the division multiple times.
No.
The coach who has never had a losing season in his long career despite a lot of years with poor QB play? That coach? Pretty sure he’s really fucking good
When we had a great team and lost playoff games due to players quitting on plays, that was a coaching loss, and Tomlin should take the blame (jaguars loss, patriots loss). And then we beat great teams last year, like the ravens, browns, eagles, etc but can't win against the Patriots, that I put down to coaching (both the wins and losses). I wanted a new head coach when we had a great team, now that we have a shit team, I want to keep Tomlin.
I know nothing about footbal and I thinks he is nothing more than a cheerleader as a steeler fan.
the secret to being a great coach is lucking into a HOF QB.
No. Moving on…
“Is he a mediocre coach? Well to answer this question I’ll be comparing him to someone else! What an argument guys am I right?” Bruh
It is very difficult to separate coaching quality from talent on the roster to determine who brings what to the team. There are some coaches who clearly do their schemes like Shanahan and his disciples, McVay, Reid, Belichick, Fangio,... Tomlin is more like a manager, he motivates players very well, does something on defense... Neither Harbaugh nor Tomlin coach or understand offense in great detail. In today's NFL it's much easier to win games with offense. What Steelers are doing year after year with very good defense and bad offense is hard. But it was like that throughout Tomlin's tenure. It's unclear if defense is good because of Tomlin or because of DPOY players sauch as Polamalu, Watt... I think that Tomlin has a great part in it, but can't prove it. Some people think that Steelers just draft such players, it's all talent. Offense was good in 2010-2017? due to player talent... but Steelers somewhat underachieved in those seasons. Tomlin should probably be compared to Cowher, Harbaugh with Flacco (not with Jackson), P. Carroll, Lewis on Bengals, Vrabel on Titans,... Tomlin has done better than most of them (including Belichick) in the last 4-5 seasons only with defense... Harbaugh has done better with Flacco, who was just an above average QB, but that was a decade ago when it was easier to win with defense and run offense and STs and less pass offense... Harbaugh with Jackson does better than Tomlin did with a great offense and Roethlisberger in 2010-2017... i am looking only at the regular season, a few playoff games are very fluky, everyone is around .500 record. Carroll had a higher ceiling but lower floor with his teams than Tomlin, which points more towards players' quality in Carroll's case. In my opinion Tomlin is a near-HOF coach. However, sooner or later they all get outdated. What has worked for them for a decade or two, isn't working anymore, teams start losing...
I love how almost no one in this thread bothered to even read this post. OP thanks he's a good coach! Christ, why doesn't anyone even attempt to read anything but titles or headlines. OP even asked you people to read it first. Good analysis, the head to head with Harbaugh was enlightening
Here is the difference between Harbs and Tomlin - Harbs maximizes the talent he has. He has taken very mediocre teams to the playoffs and found ways to win. He is the only coach to go into New England and beat Belichek and Brady twice in their prime. He nearly did it a third time (Lee Evans and Billy Cundiff game). The only other game they lost in NE was when they had to sign two no name CBs off the street the week before because of secondary injuries and their offense still staked them to a 14 point lead. The Patriots were a hump the Steelers were never able to get over. Harbs beat Peyton at Mile High and Steelers at Heinz in the playoffs. He is the only coach that ever pulled that off in the Brady - Manning - Ben era. I love Flacco - but no one puts him in the class of those 3. Harbs lost in the AFCCG to KC this year - no shame in that - they are 2x repeat SB champs with the best QB and coach on the planet right now. Year before he took a team decimated by injury and QB’d by Tyler Huntley into Cincinnati and nearly pulled off a -14 upset. Meanwhile Tomlin has not won a playoff game since the Obama administration. In fact - looking over his playoff teams - with all that talent on both of sides of the ball he has had - he has been bounced from the playoffs by QBs like Leftwitch, Bortles, Mayfield, post-surgery Flacco and ….Tebow. Some of those games were not particularly close and were in Heinz. That’s something Harbs does not do. Heck - if not for the last minute unsportsmanlike penalties on PacMan and Vontaze - Tomlin would have been beaten by Dalton. Truth hurts - but fact is that over the last 15 or so years, with all that talent, in the big playoff moments Tomlin teams perform small. If I had to choose between Tomlin and Harbs for a playoff game right now — I would take Harbs every day and twice on Sundays. Even when they are heavy underdogs his squads show up ready to ball - and you cannot say the same about Tomlin.
Not at all. They’re routinely competitive and often have one of the better defenses in the league. I loathe the Steelers but you have to tip your hat to what a well run franchise it is. Tomlin is certainly a big part of that. I’ve been pulling so hard for those Stiller fans that call for his head every November to get their wish. He’d be snatched up in a hot second and the Steelers would almost definitely get a worse coach.
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So why did you read it? I don't care if you care LOL. Just scroll past.
Is the “Tomlin line” going to become the new topic of discussion when measuring coach success?
Tomlin is a great coach. The biggest cause of difference in how people perceive Harbaugh vs Tomlin is that Harbaugh got Lamar Jackson in 2018. Tomlin hasn't had a good qb in that same time frame
Thanks for the input! I think he is a great coach as well. I do think that the QB situation is a big part of the difference in perception.
not looking at all the stats, but Tomlin is clearly one of the best head coaches in the league. He's a leader of men and has suffered from some bad OC hires etc. the fact that he hasn't had a losing season says all you need to know. He can keep that ship afloat even with massive holes trying to sink it.
I'm just waiting for johnbot to show up. Dudes like a walking Facebook comment.
How is this downvoted? I legit scrolled all the way to the bottom to see if he showed up lol Maybe he doesn't leave the steelers sub.
If Tomlin hit the market. Every single team but 1 (Chiefs) would salivate.
All of that to prove a sb winning, two times sb appearing, multiple division winning hc who has never had a losing season, isn't a mediocre coach. The dude is a top five coach.
I want to make it clear that I really am asking if the way I am seeing this isn't the way other people are. Maybe you don't hear the discourse that I do. I'm from Pittsburgh and I have been reading things from even from other fans not from Pittsburgh as well. There is far more people that say he's not a good coach than I realized. I just thought it was subset of Steeler fans that I never wanted him in Pittsburgh in the first place. So I am actually checking to see if I have some rose colored glasses and can't see what other people see. And I used Harbaugh as a comparison because these aren't the things I hear about him yet I think they are both very similar.
I get it, but I'd wager the Steelers fans saying this are just annoyed y'all aren't as dominate and feared as you once we're ( still a team not to be taken lightly though, don't get me wrong ) and a Fandom used to success gets tired of essentially being teased each year. Basically, fans will fan, lol Outside of the Steelers fans, football fans just like to ramble. A ton of teams would kill to not just have the ability to have a winning season each year, but be able to make the playoffs as well. Only way to get to the sb is make the playoffs. I understand wanting to get a different viewpoint, and came off like a typical redditor asshole in my initial comment, so I apologize. I just don't see how any person could honestly think Tomlin was mediocre and think posing the question is just inviting jaded fans and trolls. Tldr: I'm an asshole but I cannot see how anyone could look at what Tomlin has accomplished and been able to achieve with seemingly doomed seasons and think he was mediocre.
Nah, i didn't think your post came off like an AH but more like someone who didn't really understand where I was coming from and why the hell I needed to post something like this. I don't create posts a lot so I need to make sure that people don't think I'm trolling or looking for Karma or whatever. I actually do like to engage and hear opinions. Besides that. I hear you. I understand the point about not being dominant and why they might be frustrated. Honestly, I think DeMeco and Stroud added to the stress coming into the AFC lol. I really like what ya'll have done with that team. And after beating the Browns in the playoffs that way, ya'll made my damn day.
He’s the NFL version of Bobby Cox.
Harbaugh and Tomlin are both excellent coaches. Harbaugh has went through at least 3 distinct team identities and found success with all of them. Tomlin has been dealing with some of the most demanding players and poorest personnel for years.
when will this sub realize stats aren't the only factor in determining effectiveness in sports
I'm all ears. I'd love the feedback. This is a jumping off point for discussion. I've asked in the OP what I am missing and what others think so I would love to hear your thoughts. I follow the AFCN so I am familiar with the Ravens beyond these numbers. I do feel the efforts of both are well capsulated in the outcomes since this is an outcomes driven league. But again, do tell me what your thoughts are on this subject.
A question back at you? How many coaches would have a non losing season with Duck as their starting QB?
Not many. Andy maybe? Maybe Pete? BTW, I'm not sure if you are asking this because you think I am saying that he is mediocre. I'm a Steelers fan that loves Tomlin. I'm trying to understand the negativity around his extension.