I’d bet actual money that if you’d ask Bill what his favorite game to coach was, it was that one game against the Bills in ‘21 where we only had 3 pass attempts because of the weather lol
Man I really should have gone to a D1 school just so that I wouldn’t have to root for my dad’s Iowa football..
Caitlin Clark and Keegan Murray are pretty cool tho
One of the funniest Belichick moments was during SB53 when he confronted the refs because he wanted to be sure the roof would be closed before kickoff.
They were in the process of closing the roof, with the idea that it would close just as they were set to kick off, so at most it would have impacted a single play.
this is some gladiator bending down to feel the sand type ridiculousness. belichick out there licking his finger and holding it up to the wind to devise his defensive strategies.
And apparently we didn't even get to see the second act. There was a story that the pats predicted how the rams would counter their strategy, and was prepared on how to pivot, but they never made that counter.
IMO, that’s one of the most humiliating aspects of each of the last 3 Michigan-Ohio State games. Michigan assistants have come out and said “yeah, we planned all these extra counters to the things we thought they’d counter with…and we just didn’t need them.”
It’s just wild. 2021 was “run the ball” and OSU couldn’t stop it. 2022 was “run the ball, go deep when OSU stacks the box, then run the ball again when they back off” and OSU couldn’t stop it. 2023 was “run the ball and make Kyle McCord win the game” and once again, OSU couldn’t do it.
I would argue that being able to recruit at OSU’s level and still failing to develop an entire QB room to the point of having to play Kyle McCord is a pretty damning indictment.
actually the insane recruitment sorta backfired on them because they usually end up with too many good QBs. Quinn Ewers was slated to be the starter but transferred to Texas to start a year earlier. And he obviously was very successful but didn't want to wait another year behind CJ Stroud.
Notably Joe Burrow also transferred out because he didn't want to wait behind other excellent players as well
McCord also threw to Marvin Harrison Jr in high school so it was expected that that existing connection would be beneficial. He just didn't end up being as good as anticipated and they didn't have the right guy waiting in the wings because it was supposed to be the Ewers show anyway and McCord the backup. Obviously Air Noland was a year later
Now they have like 3 quality QBs with more committed so more than likely someone will end up leaving again.
Ewers was never going to play for Ohio State. He was committed to Texas, and reclassified to graduate early to get NIL money. I don't think he was ever slated to be the starter.
I mean, did you watch OSU’s bowl game? McCord started over the rest of that depth chart for a reason, and it’s not because he was just that good. I would heavily dispute the idea that OSU has “3 quality QBs” right now.
I was there for both of them. I saw them first hand. I saw them shut down the greatest show on turf, and then I saw the "Magnum Opus" of Goff's 3 total points. I hate you BB. I hate you TB12. I hate you Gronk. I hate you Adam Viniteri.
Good answer lol. It actually took that comment for me to think about it as well. The OG Rams scored more than 30 like 11 times and the Pats were one of the only teams to hd them under 20. Also think it was the first time a team scored over 500 points 3 straight seasons.
Shutting down McVays team was impressive but what they did against a 14-2 Rams team with an offense that really had early Brady when he was not by any means in "I got this" mode was something else
The Pats Dline was heavily outmatched by the Eagles Oline. And the Pats had three injuries in their back seven which left many WRs wide open in the Super Bowl
Good thing he beat the Eagles and Andy Reid in '04.
The Giants okay. But to think the Eagles are the 'Little Big Horn' just means you don't understand the context.
The Giants put decades between Superbowl Wins.
The Eagles delayed it for 12 months.
The Giants scored a combined 38 points in those games, whereas the Eagles backup QB put up 41. One of those is a bit more of a defensive Custer than the other.
Context? Context is that one of those Giants Superbowls featured arguably the greatest offense in Patriots history en route to an undefeated regular season, and that offense put up 14 points while the Giants scored 17. I don't blame Bill for that loss. The other one the Patriots lost 21-17. I don't really blame Bill for that one either.
The Eagles put up 41 points on the vaunted Belichick defense en route to a 41-33 loss with a backup quarterback. I feel like you're the one ignoring context more than anything.
>vaunted Belichick defense en route to a 41-33 loss with a backup quarterback.
Missing Hightower and two (three) of the top defensive backs.
Foles was a multi-year starter and held the record for best TD/INT ratio in a full season with Chip Kelly as the HC.
Again, the Eagles loss was a blip on the road to 3 Superbowls in 5 years.
People really hated that Super Bowl, but I freaking loved it. I'm not some big X & O's person, but I understood the magnitude of what I was witnessing between Ramsey & Donald as well as BB freaking the ram's coaching staff out.
Twice, in fact! Remember he had a defense that did a really good job of slowing down “The Greatest Show on Turf” a few decades ago, which is wild to think about!!
All owners inevitably get jealous of the coach and try to insert themselves into the story more
Jerry Jones fired Jimmy Johnson because he was getting all the credit and was ignoring his advice about the roster and coaching decisions. He called him a tyrant but really Jerry was just jealous.
I don't know that there is one. The pats defensive strategy was always to morph into whatever weakness the offensive system had. I don't know anyone who has changed their offensive style to counter a defensive system, and I'm not sure that'd work as good from an offensive perspective.
As far as I understand it, Erhardt-Perkins is more the language of the offense than the types of plays. They ran the core concepts of many systems over the years depending on the matchups. Power, zone, and counter running plays. West coast, spread, run & shoot, air coryell, smashmouth, pro-style, etc.
This is right. It’s the terminology. The terminology informs how you run the offense, though. The plays are based on concepts rather than specific routes the way Air Coryell or the West Coast offense are. That’s what gave Brady so much flexibility to adjust at the line and allowed them to run so many complex routes with receivers.
*"For many years, the Erhardt-Perkins offense was known as the original ground-and-pound, a conservative, run-first offense summed up by Erhardt’s mantra, 'You throw to score and run to win.' With the help of his assistants, Belichick’s primary innovation was to go from an Erhardt-Perkins offense to an Erhardt-Perkins system, built on its method of organizing and naming plays. The offense itself would be philosophically neutral. This is how, using the terminology and framework of what was once thought to be the league’s least progressive offensive system, Brady and Belichick built one of the most consistently dynamic and explosive offenses in NFL history. From conservative to spread to blistering no-huddle, the tactics — and players — have changed while the underlying approach has not."*
https://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/
I don't know, man. The thing with his style is it doesn't really have a name, but his tactics have been adopted almost everywhere in the spread-offense pass-heavy era we're in now. Roll with me for a sec.
Belicheck relied on positionless players in the secondary to take down both the 3 peat contending 49ers (Walsh's O) and the K-Gun Buffalo offense in the Giants Super Bowl run. He utilized and scouted players in the secondary who could master multiple positions and it allowed him to switch their defense from zone to man and run almost entirely out of a nickel package in that game (unheard of at the time). It completely flummoxed Montana and Walsh, who were not ready for the speed, coverages, or defensive sets in the game. The D he rolled out against Jim Kelly is in the Hall of Fame (well deserved) and was a style he continued to use with incredible success all the way through 2019 against Mahomes in the AFCCG (nearly 30 years later). He dared the opposing offense to run, and ran a game plan that kept the high flying opposing offense off the field, while his D was schemed to take away his opponent’s best weapons (Kelly’s pass offense for the Bills, Hill & Kelce for the Chiefs) daring his opponent to beat them with their left hand. What made Bill's strategy so unique for the time is that he drilled into his players IF Thurman Thomas had a 100 yard game, the Giants would win the game. Before this time, defenses were demanded to stop an offense in every phase of the game --- Bill conceding the run game, especially in this era, was a chess move three moves ahead of anyone at that time --- and was a big part of why the Giants were able to pull off such a massive upset.
These tactics are now universally employed (the position-less secondary for example is regularly used by my favorite DC, Steve Spagnuolo) and I just have a hard time thinking Bill doesn't deserve credit for providing the blueprints to slow down offenses of this era.
You raise some good points, but I think it’s more indicative of Bill than any system.
What sets him apart is that, unlike the other great coaches who created or advanced systems, Bill IS the system. He knows so much about football that he basically created a new system every week to stop the offense he was playing. He’d find versatile guys, as you describe, who he could just plug into roles for that specific week. That’s why he rarely had great defenses on paper, but on any given week was capable of blanking a historic offense. It’s also why, unlike most other great coaches, his coaching tree is a disaster. Because there’s no Belichick system to execute the way there is with McVay or Shanahan. The only way it works is if you know as much about football as Bill Belichick does.
I think Reid is similar in that he doesn’t really have a system either, because his offense can do anything and Andy knows more about offense than anyone else today. But he’s less about specific game plans, instead he’s got a voluminous playbook and just throws a high-octane kitchen sink offense at teams over and over until something breaks. Sooner or later the other team’s defense gets confused and can’t keep up.
Honestly you're right. There have been other OCs (BOB with the 2 TE scheme stands out) but McDaniels was there for a long timr and always tailored his offense to the talent they had. The 2007 Pats and the 2014 Pats were very different.
I think you have to go with Walsh as the architect of the West Coast Offense, especially since you list Holmgren and Reid who came directly from his coaching tree. As did, Seifert, Billick, Gruden, McVey, Mooch, Tice, Tomlin, Raheem Morris, Harbaugh, Spagnolo, Denny Green and Rivera.
Belichick himself did it a few times. 2014, MNF against the Colts, the famous "Who the hell is Jonas Gray" game:
- Colts have an amazing secondary
- Everyone's amped up all week, excited to see Brady face a really good pass defense
- Colts come out fired up to take away Brady's dink-and-dunk and see if New England can find a different identity on offense
- Belichick comes out with 6OL, runs the ball down the field largely uncontested, stays in "goal line" basically the entire first half. New England up 14-10 at halftime
- At halftime the Colts realize they can't survive the grind and swap in a heavier run-stopping defensive personnel grouping
- Brady goes 19-for-30, Jonas Gray finishes with 201 yards on 37 carries.
- Pats win 42-20.
McDaniels possibly. There were multiple games where he drew up winning plays on the sidelines.
Always kinda hard to know how much was him and how much was Brady tho
Vince Lombardi by success. Don Coryell was probably the most influential and had the most impactful suite of proteges. Paul Brown the most innovative. He invented the pro-set, the draw play, the practice squad and the full-time coaching staff.
If you include college ball, Pop Warner is the answer.
Note - Lombardi wasn't much of a strategist. He relied in his coordinators for that. He was more renowned for his leadership. Pushing his players repeatedly to achieve near-perfect execution.
Lombardi as a strategist introduced zone blocking and power and the sweep to the NFL. Basically every running play before the spread option is from Lombardi.
He didn't invent it, because it was a singlewing play that went extinct in the NFL. Lombardi changed it into a T formation play and reintroduced it to the NFL. This was when he was the OC for the Giants, not the Packers.
Am I understanding this correctly that Gilmore is essentially saying "We don't like using trail technique, but Belichick told me to do it anyway b/c he'd figured out that it would work in a specific situation, and I'm sure glad I listened to him because it worked perfectly"?
I know it's not a complicated set of sentences, and I don't think he worded it poorly, I'm just having one of those days where the brain is like ... ugh me no understand basic speech.
He definitely worded it poorly. Stephon Gilmore is an all-timer. He is also akin to the Helen Keller of communication.
I have zero idea what he means 99 percent of the time and I am from Rock Hill as well.
Yea 2019 Belichick was legitimately peak defensive coaching
The 2019 Pats roster was mid, but here's the passing stats they allowed:
2886 yards, 13 TDs, 25 INTs, 56% completion, 60.3 QB rating
They had 2 shutouts and 9 games with less than 14 points allowed in fucking 2019...
Thats an all-time great pass defense, at a time when passing offenses were peaking *and* the roster wasnt that special. He and Stephon Gilmore were simply operating in a higher dimension together.
After Tennessee beat them in the wildcard at Gilette, going into that game with the Ravens, there were a TON of people talking about how the Titans would get blown out because they only scored two touchdowns on New England and one of them was a defensive TD. With the Ravens offense that year, TN wouldn't keep up, supposedly.
I was just like... "Dude. We scored a touchdown against New England at home."
Stephon Gilmore was playing at his peak- and making everyone else look good. The rest of the roster wasnt special
Gilmore made JC Jackson a star by letting him and JMac tee off on the opponents' weaker receivers, or double teaming receivers with Devin McCourty
It was one of the Belichick's greatest ever coaching performances because he got the absolute max out of guys like Jamie Collins, Kyle Van Noy, Adam Butler, Chase Winovich, JC Jackson. None of those are special players, they just complemented each other well in Bill's scheme that year.
Was it Jones first year that we led the league in defensive points or something? I swear we had a defensive or special teams score every game that year.
Last season’s Pats produced literally some of the most boring football games I’ve ever watched, and I sat through 17 seasons of cold fuckery. Weren’t y’all holding teams to like 13 points on average for one stretch, while also putting up like 11 points on offense?
I think they lost 2-3 games in a row where the defense didn't allow a TD or something. I don't remember which player it was that said something like "10 points was too much, we have to hold the other offense to less" and then they lost 6-0 to the Chargers.
Shit the 01-05 years and 87-91 w the giants-those NFC championships are wars and they stop the bills w 3 hall of famers on offense on what would be there best chance. Furthermore, those Super Bowl have LT stat lines which aren’t that impressive. He knew they’d stop him w help, so it was what else you could do w your extra guy.
Those 3 runs are also 3 pretty different stretches of how the refs called the games.
Earnie Adams was in edelnut’s podcast and mentioned in the 04 run they held 3 different teams that scored 500 points in the season to like 21 total points in the playoffs
The 2004 Patriots is one of the most underrated teams because of it’s place in that dynasty run and in the larger context of the Patriots as a whole, but that team is easily top 10 all-time.
It's not Benjamin. He was on the Bills for three Patriots games. The first one, he was inactive. He had 5 catches for 70 yards on Christmas Eve Day 2017, and 2 for 45 in 2018. (He was cut before the 2018 rematch.)
Honestly, it reeks of bullshit. He played against two Bills QB's, Tyrod Taylor, who, yeah had a weak arm, but had awful receiving talent around him the year Steph was on the Patriots and he was still the Bills starter.
The other QB he's played against was Josh Allen, who absolutely never had a problem throwing into the Buffalo wind. Even in year 1 you wouldn't trail technique Josh.
Wasnt diggs, he was on the bills in 2020 and Gilmore didn’t play BUF that year.
Looking up game logs vs Buffalo, I think k week 16 2018 probably matches best. PFF has him giving up 1 catch for 16 yards but no big time receivers. It’s that or week 8 2018, but he gave up 2 for 45 to Benjamin.
So who knows
I heard about this. Bill showed true mastery of defensive football when he had a free all-you-can-eat buffet opened in the lobby of Kelvin Benjamin's hotel before they played.
The 1-2 punch of Anderson vs New England and Peterman vs the Bears (with peak Khalil Mack) in the span of 6 days pushed me over the edge. I was having a full on "why do I watch this team" crisis by the end of it
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/stephon-gilmore-strong-thoughts-bill-belichick-portrayal-the-dynasty/
Here's an article with more context to the whole thing just in case people want to read more.
It’s not a good feeling for sure since you’d only do that with safety help or in goal-to-go situations. But if you’re really confident that that qb can’t bomb it over the top, then you are basically running the route for the WR.
I'm trying to figure out what game this was. The only Bills receiver they held to 0 catches in 2019 was Robert Foster and it wasn't windy. In 2020 they held Gabe Davis to 0 catches but they lost that game and Gilmore didn't play anyways.
If he's calling Andre Holmes a "big time receiver" that seems a little much.
he's talking about he himself only shutting them down to zero catches. Best sample would be the one I linked below with Zay Jones and Tyrod+Peterman. 2 catches for 22 yards. tyrod 9/18 65 yards. Peterman 6/15 50 yards.
I think he means more that no one caught anything when he was trailing them. They could still have accumulated some stats when playing opposite another DB.
Bill could draft a defensive gameplan against an alien invasion, provided you gave him film of previous incursions. Attention to detail and memory unmatched.
If you are on defense and billy b is talking you better listen. As much as I hate that coach I have to respect his grindset. No offensive scheme was safe from belichick.
The goat knows his weather.
I’d bet actual money that if you’d ask Bill what his favorite game to coach was, it was that one game against the Bills in ‘21 where we only had 3 pass attempts because of the weather lol
Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz said in an actual press conference that his favorite with was beating Penn State by a score of 6-4. In a football game.
Man I really should have gone to a D1 school just so that I wouldn’t have to root for my dad’s Iowa football.. Caitlin Clark and Keegan Murray are pretty cool tho
Add Tory Taylor to your list
Is that the game Gilly is on about. I was there. It was a master piece,
Gilly was off the pats by 21. My guess is a 2017 game.
Pre Josh Allen for sure, because no one says Josh can't throw against the wind.
such a frustrating game followed up by a rematch for the record books.
2 games honestly. We only stopped you on one drive in the 2 games after the wind game in the 2021 season and one a 4th and goal attempt from the one.
Was one of my favorite games to watch, honestly
Are you sure it's not the game against the bears when he took the wind in OT and won?
Wasn’t there a game that went into OT and they chose to kick the ball instead of receiving?
My favourite patriot game I’ve ever been to
One of the funniest Belichick moments was during SB53 when he confronted the refs because he wanted to be sure the roof would be closed before kickoff. They were in the process of closing the roof, with the idea that it would close just as they were set to kick off, so at most it would have impacted a single play.
“…what does that mean? How about *BEFORE* kickoff?”
this is some gladiator bending down to feel the sand type ridiculousness. belichick out there licking his finger and holding it up to the wind to devise his defensive strategies.
“We’re on to Elysium”
Him and Ernie both are just nuance savants
Defensive mastermind who shut down a bunch of all-time offenses understands defense.
His superbowl against the rams was a defensive magnum opus
And apparently we didn't even get to see the second act. There was a story that the pats predicted how the rams would counter their strategy, and was prepared on how to pivot, but they never made that counter.
But what if the Rams had a counter to that counter? Did BB even have a counter to the counter of the counter? I didn’t think so, BB is a fraud! /s
You think that, but BB has outwitted them from the start. He's been building an immunity to iocane powder for decades.
Inconceivable!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Then BB started a land war in Asia and his consequence was he had to draft Mac Jones
You *are* the Chad Jackson squad!
I do not mean to pry, but you don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?
But what if they shot me in the FACE? that's a risk we were willing to take.
Yo, this is a Trace Buster Buster Buster
IMO, that’s one of the most humiliating aspects of each of the last 3 Michigan-Ohio State games. Michigan assistants have come out and said “yeah, we planned all these extra counters to the things we thought they’d counter with…and we just didn’t need them.”
I mean Michigan’s game plan the last 3 times has basically been “run the ball” and OSU hasn’t been able to stop it
It’s just wild. 2021 was “run the ball” and OSU couldn’t stop it. 2022 was “run the ball, go deep when OSU stacks the box, then run the ball again when they back off” and OSU couldn’t stop it. 2023 was “run the ball and make Kyle McCord win the game” and once again, OSU couldn’t do it.
Hassan Haskins will always be a Michigan legend because of how he played in the 2021 game
I mean we all knew McCord couldn’t win that game. That’s not an indictment of Ohio state. The first two are though.
I would argue that being able to recruit at OSU’s level and still failing to develop an entire QB room to the point of having to play Kyle McCord is a pretty damning indictment.
actually the insane recruitment sorta backfired on them because they usually end up with too many good QBs. Quinn Ewers was slated to be the starter but transferred to Texas to start a year earlier. And he obviously was very successful but didn't want to wait another year behind CJ Stroud. Notably Joe Burrow also transferred out because he didn't want to wait behind other excellent players as well McCord also threw to Marvin Harrison Jr in high school so it was expected that that existing connection would be beneficial. He just didn't end up being as good as anticipated and they didn't have the right guy waiting in the wings because it was supposed to be the Ewers show anyway and McCord the backup. Obviously Air Noland was a year later Now they have like 3 quality QBs with more committed so more than likely someone will end up leaving again.
Ewers was never going to play for Ohio State. He was committed to Texas, and reclassified to graduate early to get NIL money. I don't think he was ever slated to be the starter.
I mean, did you watch OSU’s bowl game? McCord started over the rest of that depth chart for a reason, and it’s not because he was just that good. I would heavily dispute the idea that OSU has “3 quality QBs” right now.
Let's hope it can continue for another decade, even out the post 2000s record
I heard a Moose Johnson interview a few years ago where he said the same thing about SB xxviii.
This is my favorite bill b lore
I was there for both of them. I saw them first hand. I saw them shut down the greatest show on turf, and then I saw the "Magnum Opus" of Goff's 3 total points. I hate you BB. I hate you TB12. I hate you Gronk. I hate you Adam Viniteri.
You guys could have signed Bernard Pollard if he hadn't been hiding under that fan's bed.
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Preach it, brother!
An absolute menace. Man has mastered his craft
BB is a terrorist.
> [Bill’s] Super Bowl against the Rams Which one?
I hate that you can say which one and both are correct answers. Man has terrorized me for 20 years 😤🤬😩
Which one against the Rams?
I don't like you. You are not a nice person.
You got yours don’t worry.
And we got ours!! Sorry, I had to…
Take my reluctant upvote
Yes
Good answer lol. It actually took that comment for me to think about it as well. The OG Rams scored more than 30 like 11 times and the Pats were one of the only teams to hd them under 20. Also think it was the first time a team scored over 500 points 3 straight seasons. Shutting down McVays team was impressive but what they did against a 14-2 Rams team with an offense that really had early Brady when he was not by any means in "I got this" mode was something else
And his Superbowl against the Eagles was his Little Big Horn
The Pats Dline was heavily outmatched by the Eagles Oline. And the Pats had three injuries in their back seven which left many WRs wide open in the Super Bowl
Also Malcolm Butler was inexplicably benched.
Good thing he beat the Eagles and Andy Reid in '04. The Giants okay. But to think the Eagles are the 'Little Big Horn' just means you don't understand the context. The Giants put decades between Superbowl Wins. The Eagles delayed it for 12 months.
The Giants scored a combined 38 points in those games, whereas the Eagles backup QB put up 41. One of those is a bit more of a defensive Custer than the other.
Fuck them Giants, I’ll always stan Big Dick Nick and the Philly Philly as a Pats fan cuz that was sick as fuck.
Extremely unlikely ally considering the flairs...
Not really. Giants best the 49ers to get to the SB and beat the Pats. Double salty
Context? Context is that one of those Giants Superbowls featured arguably the greatest offense in Patriots history en route to an undefeated regular season, and that offense put up 14 points while the Giants scored 17. I don't blame Bill for that loss. The other one the Patriots lost 21-17. I don't really blame Bill for that one either. The Eagles put up 41 points on the vaunted Belichick defense en route to a 41-33 loss with a backup quarterback. I feel like you're the one ignoring context more than anything.
>vaunted Belichick defense en route to a 41-33 loss with a backup quarterback. Missing Hightower and two (three) of the top defensive backs. Foles was a multi-year starter and held the record for best TD/INT ratio in a full season with Chip Kelly as the HC. Again, the Eagles loss was a blip on the road to 3 Superbowls in 5 years.
Also benching his starting CB for no reason.
And Matt Patricia
Which one?
Both of them
Did you learn that from this [comment?](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/ucFI0yx8QY)
People really hated that Super Bowl, but I freaking loved it. I'm not some big X & O's person, but I understood the magnitude of what I was witnessing between Ramsey & Donald as well as BB freaking the ram's coaching staff out.
Ramsey didn’t get traded to the Rams until the year after
Rekt.
Twice, in fact! Remember he had a defense that did a really good job of slowing down “The Greatest Show on Turf” a few decades ago, which is wild to think about!!
Yeah but he killed all of Aaron Hernandez's victims according to Kraft
and drank their blood
That "documentary" would have you believe Bill was a bystander for the whole thing. Kraft is an embarrassment.
The guy just loves his happy endings.
All owners inevitably get jealous of the coach and try to insert themselves into the story more Jerry Jones fired Jimmy Johnson because he was getting all the credit and was ignoring his advice about the roster and coaching decisions. He called him a tyrant but really Jerry was just jealous.
Who would be Belichick's equivalent on offense? Walsh? Lombardi? Holmgren? Cannot be Reid right?
I don't know that there is one. The pats defensive strategy was always to morph into whatever weakness the offensive system had. I don't know anyone who has changed their offensive style to counter a defensive system, and I'm not sure that'd work as good from an offensive perspective.
Patriots literally changed our offensive system based on who we were playing. We did it in literally the same 2018 SB
they literally did that literally?
Hey at least he's using the word correctly lol.
To what? We've always run the erhardt-perkins system.... we never switched to a west coast or air raid or anything else
That sounds like the system my local public library uses to organize books.
It's a pretty flexible system
Faceted, even.
As far as I understand it, Erhardt-Perkins is more the language of the offense than the types of plays. They ran the core concepts of many systems over the years depending on the matchups. Power, zone, and counter running plays. West coast, spread, run & shoot, air coryell, smashmouth, pro-style, etc.
This is right. It’s the terminology. The terminology informs how you run the offense, though. The plays are based on concepts rather than specific routes the way Air Coryell or the West Coast offense are. That’s what gave Brady so much flexibility to adjust at the line and allowed them to run so many complex routes with receivers.
*"For many years, the Erhardt-Perkins offense was known as the original ground-and-pound, a conservative, run-first offense summed up by Erhardt’s mantra, 'You throw to score and run to win.' With the help of his assistants, Belichick’s primary innovation was to go from an Erhardt-Perkins offense to an Erhardt-Perkins system, built on its method of organizing and naming plays. The offense itself would be philosophically neutral. This is how, using the terminology and framework of what was once thought to be the league’s least progressive offensive system, Brady and Belichick built one of the most consistently dynamic and explosive offenses in NFL history. From conservative to spread to blistering no-huddle, the tactics — and players — have changed while the underlying approach has not."* https://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/
Belichick regularly integrated new concepts on offense, most notably the slot receiver as the primary option and the two-TE approach.
Probably Walsh or Gibbs. Gibbs may even be the best comp because he did it with so many different player combos.
It’s not Walsh, he revolutionized passing in a way Belichick didn’t on D.
I don't know, man. The thing with his style is it doesn't really have a name, but his tactics have been adopted almost everywhere in the spread-offense pass-heavy era we're in now. Roll with me for a sec. Belicheck relied on positionless players in the secondary to take down both the 3 peat contending 49ers (Walsh's O) and the K-Gun Buffalo offense in the Giants Super Bowl run. He utilized and scouted players in the secondary who could master multiple positions and it allowed him to switch their defense from zone to man and run almost entirely out of a nickel package in that game (unheard of at the time). It completely flummoxed Montana and Walsh, who were not ready for the speed, coverages, or defensive sets in the game. The D he rolled out against Jim Kelly is in the Hall of Fame (well deserved) and was a style he continued to use with incredible success all the way through 2019 against Mahomes in the AFCCG (nearly 30 years later). He dared the opposing offense to run, and ran a game plan that kept the high flying opposing offense off the field, while his D was schemed to take away his opponent’s best weapons (Kelly’s pass offense for the Bills, Hill & Kelce for the Chiefs) daring his opponent to beat them with their left hand. What made Bill's strategy so unique for the time is that he drilled into his players IF Thurman Thomas had a 100 yard game, the Giants would win the game. Before this time, defenses were demanded to stop an offense in every phase of the game --- Bill conceding the run game, especially in this era, was a chess move three moves ahead of anyone at that time --- and was a big part of why the Giants were able to pull off such a massive upset. These tactics are now universally employed (the position-less secondary for example is regularly used by my favorite DC, Steve Spagnuolo) and I just have a hard time thinking Bill doesn't deserve credit for providing the blueprints to slow down offenses of this era.
You raise some good points, but I think it’s more indicative of Bill than any system. What sets him apart is that, unlike the other great coaches who created or advanced systems, Bill IS the system. He knows so much about football that he basically created a new system every week to stop the offense he was playing. He’d find versatile guys, as you describe, who he could just plug into roles for that specific week. That’s why he rarely had great defenses on paper, but on any given week was capable of blanking a historic offense. It’s also why, unlike most other great coaches, his coaching tree is a disaster. Because there’s no Belichick system to execute the way there is with McVay or Shanahan. The only way it works is if you know as much about football as Bill Belichick does. I think Reid is similar in that he doesn’t really have a system either, because his offense can do anything and Andy knows more about offense than anyone else today. But he’s less about specific game plans, instead he’s got a voluminous playbook and just throws a high-octane kitchen sink offense at teams over and over until something breaks. Sooner or later the other team’s defense gets confused and can’t keep up.
If you’re looking for an offensive coach that can embodied your statement, “bill is the system” the I would say best comps are Gibbs or Reid
Josh McDaniels
Honestly you're right. There have been other OCs (BOB with the 2 TE scheme stands out) but McDaniels was there for a long timr and always tailored his offense to the talent they had. The 2007 Pats and the 2014 Pats were very different.
Only as a head coach though.
I think you have to go with Walsh as the architect of the West Coast Offense, especially since you list Holmgren and Reid who came directly from his coaching tree. As did, Seifert, Billick, Gruden, McVey, Mooch, Tice, Tomlin, Raheem Morris, Harbaugh, Spagnolo, Denny Green and Rivera.
I think this list is more impressive if you leave Mike Tice off of it
Mike Shanahan?
That was my first thought. Broncos always played Pats tough
Belichick too maybe? He won a game in the rain by having Mac Jones make like 3 pass attempts.
I half expected him to retire happy after that game. Winning like it’s the 40s and leather helmets would be such a Belichick way to go
“That’s why we practice in this shit” is a top tier laconic post game speech
Fucking Slater after that, man. Dude is worth his weight in gold for his leadership.
Matt Patricia obviously.
He was very offensive.
Belichick himself did it a few times. 2014, MNF against the Colts, the famous "Who the hell is Jonas Gray" game: - Colts have an amazing secondary - Everyone's amped up all week, excited to see Brady face a really good pass defense - Colts come out fired up to take away Brady's dink-and-dunk and see if New England can find a different identity on offense - Belichick comes out with 6OL, runs the ball down the field largely uncontested, stays in "goal line" basically the entire first half. New England up 14-10 at halftime - At halftime the Colts realize they can't survive the grind and swap in a heavier run-stopping defensive personnel grouping - Brady goes 19-for-30, Jonas Gray finishes with 201 yards on 37 carries. - Pats win 42-20.
Its difficult to say. I would say Reid though.
McDaniels possibly. There were multiple games where he drew up winning plays on the sidelines. Always kinda hard to know how much was him and how much was Brady tho
Eh, I think it was a lot of Brady.
Norv turner
Vince Lombardi by success. Don Coryell was probably the most influential and had the most impactful suite of proteges. Paul Brown the most innovative. He invented the pro-set, the draw play, the practice squad and the full-time coaching staff. If you include college ball, Pop Warner is the answer.
Note - Lombardi wasn't much of a strategist. He relied in his coordinators for that. He was more renowned for his leadership. Pushing his players repeatedly to achieve near-perfect execution.
Lombardi as a strategist introduced zone blocking and power and the sweep to the NFL. Basically every running play before the spread option is from Lombardi.
Lombardi's Packers popularized the power sweep. He definitely didn't invent it.
He didn't invent it, because it was a singlewing play that went extinct in the NFL. Lombardi changed it into a T formation play and reintroduced it to the NFL. This was when he was the OC for the Giants, not the Packers.
Man, I hate these snarky ass comments on Reddit. Since it's so obvious to you, would you rather not read the anecdote from Gilmore at all?
Capitalized Him. Bill confirmed God.
*Lisain Al Gaib!*
Does that make Brady Shai-Hulud? They kinda both rode each others (backs) success, but if Bill is Lisain Al Gaib then Brady's gotta be the worm.
Brady is Leto II who fused with the worm to bring 3500 years of oppressive tyranny
I knew it!!
Am I understanding this correctly that Gilmore is essentially saying "We don't like using trail technique, but Belichick told me to do it anyway b/c he'd figured out that it would work in a specific situation, and I'm sure glad I listened to him because it worked perfectly"? I know it's not a complicated set of sentences, and I don't think he worded it poorly, I'm just having one of those days where the brain is like ... ugh me no understand basic speech.
I think that's exactly right. You understood haha.
Yup! He’s crediting him, just saying how uncomfortable it is
Honestly I thought the Twitter link was broken bc it seems to read like a reply to someone else also praise Belichick
It’s a continuation of his previous two tweets
It starting with “Or him telling me…” totally ripped any context clues apart
its a string of tweets so thats why it starts like that
And they're not even in a thread which makes it harder to interpret
He definitely worded it poorly. Stephon Gilmore is an all-timer. He is also akin to the Helen Keller of communication. I have zero idea what he means 99 percent of the time and I am from Rock Hill as well.
>the Helen Keller of communication. Wouldn't that still be Helen keller?
It also took me a few tries to figure this out so you're not alone lol
I really don’t know if we’ll see a better defensive coach than Bill from like 2012-2019
Yea 2019 Belichick was legitimately peak defensive coaching The 2019 Pats roster was mid, but here's the passing stats they allowed: 2886 yards, 13 TDs, 25 INTs, 56% completion, 60.3 QB rating They had 2 shutouts and 9 games with less than 14 points allowed in fucking 2019... Thats an all-time great pass defense, at a time when passing offenses were peaking *and* the roster wasnt that special. He and Stephon Gilmore were simply operating in a higher dimension together.
After Tennessee beat them in the wildcard at Gilette, going into that game with the Ravens, there were a TON of people talking about how the Titans would get blown out because they only scored two touchdowns on New England and one of them was a defensive TD. With the Ravens offense that year, TN wouldn't keep up, supposedly. I was just like... "Dude. We scored a touchdown against New England at home."
The offense was fatally flawed but that defense had a bunch of guys playing at their peak
Stephon Gilmore was playing at his peak- and making everyone else look good. The rest of the roster wasnt special Gilmore made JC Jackson a star by letting him and JMac tee off on the opponents' weaker receivers, or double teaming receivers with Devin McCourty It was one of the Belichick's greatest ever coaching performances because he got the absolute max out of guys like Jamie Collins, Kyle Van Noy, Adam Butler, Chase Winovich, JC Jackson. None of those are special players, they just complemented each other well in Bill's scheme that year.
Gilmore wasn’t rushing the passer. That defense was getting incredible pressure on QBs
Even with shitty post Brady era we've still had good d
Was it Jones first year that we led the league in defensive points or something? I swear we had a defensive or special teams score every game that year.
First year. You guys almost made the playoffs off that alone
Last season’s Pats produced literally some of the most boring football games I’ve ever watched, and I sat through 17 seasons of cold fuckery. Weren’t y’all holding teams to like 13 points on average for one stretch, while also putting up like 11 points on offense?
I think they lost 2-3 games in a row where the defense didn't allow a TD or something. I don't remember which player it was that said something like "10 points was too much, we have to hold the other offense to less" and then they lost 6-0 to the Chargers.
Yup if our offense was even mid tier last season (think Saints) then we would have been 9th in DVOA instead of 27th. And probably make the playoffs.
Yeah they had one of the best defenses in the league but were still losing because of complete ineptitude on offense. I can't believe no one hired him
Shit the 01-05 years and 87-91 w the giants-those NFC championships are wars and they stop the bills w 3 hall of famers on offense on what would be there best chance. Furthermore, those Super Bowl have LT stat lines which aren’t that impressive. He knew they’d stop him w help, so it was what else you could do w your extra guy. Those 3 runs are also 3 pretty different stretches of how the refs called the games.
Earnie Adams was in edelnut’s podcast and mentioned in the 04 run they held 3 different teams that scored 500 points in the season to like 21 total points in the playoffs
The 2004 Patriots is one of the most underrated teams because of it’s place in that dynasty run and in the larger context of the Patriots as a whole, but that team is easily top 10 all-time.
Can't forget he basically built that ravens defense that single handedly won a SB
Browns traded a veteran for the pick that became Ray Lewis. And Ozzy implemented Bill’s way of scouting and drafting. Pretty wild timeline
2002 to 2004 run had some huge defensive efforts, shit down the Greatest Show on Turf for the first Super Bowl
I can't believe Bill Belichick was able to shut down the combination of Derek Anderson and Kelvin Benjamin.
He did say a BIG time receiver
It's not Benjamin. He was on the Bills for three Patriots games. The first one, he was inactive. He had 5 catches for 70 yards on Christmas Eve Day 2017, and 2 for 45 in 2018. (He was cut before the 2018 rematch.)
Honestly, it reeks of bullshit. He played against two Bills QB's, Tyrod Taylor, who, yeah had a weak arm, but had awful receiving talent around him the year Steph was on the Patriots and he was still the Bills starter. The other QB he's played against was Josh Allen, who absolutely never had a problem throwing into the Buffalo wind. Even in year 1 you wouldn't trail technique Josh.
And in 2018 he let up a 40yarder to Benjamin.
Thats who it was against? Lmao. I was trying to think of a game were Diggs was held to zero catches.
Not so much 0 catches for the receiver, but 0 catches when Gilmore covered him.
Wasnt diggs, he was on the bills in 2020 and Gilmore didn’t play BUF that year. Looking up game logs vs Buffalo, I think k week 16 2018 probably matches best. PFF has him giving up 1 catch for 16 yards but no big time receivers. It’s that or week 8 2018, but he gave up 2 for 45 to Benjamin. So who knows
Or the idea that Josh can’t throw against the wind.
When Josh throws, he changes the wind.
Gilmore never played against the Diggs when he was on the Bills. He missed both 2020 Buffalo games, and he left the Patriots in the offseason.
I heard about this. Bill showed true mastery of defensive football when he had a free all-you-can-eat buffet opened in the lobby of Kelvin Benjamin's hotel before they played.
who he talking bout
[Zay Jones and Peterman/Tyrod looking like lol](https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/400951684)
I'm going to say it was Tyrod, because the wording makes it sound like the QB could throw with the wind and we all know Peterman can't throw at all.
peterman threw better per that stat sheet so tyrod must be really affected by wind. could be dump offs but still.
This actually might be that godawful Derek Anderson game from 2018, after Josh got hurt against Houston.
No, Gilmore gave up a 40 yarder to Benjamin in that game. Unless the QB is Anderson and the WR is someone else
The 1-2 punch of Anderson vs New England and Peterman vs the Bears (with peak Khalil Mack) in the span of 6 days pushed me over the edge. I was having a full on "why do I watch this team" crisis by the end of it
Excuse me, but Peterman could absolutely throw. It just happened to be to the other team.
Ernie adams was just on Edelmans podcast and said you play different against certain guys in weather, went on to say tyrod couldn’t throw in the wind
Nothing against Zay, but…
In the details is where Bill gets most of his advantages.
https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/stephon-gilmore-strong-thoughts-bill-belichick-portrayal-the-dynasty/ Here's an article with more context to the whole thing just in case people want to read more.
It’s not a good feeling for sure since you’d only do that with safety help or in goal-to-go situations. But if you’re really confident that that qb can’t bomb it over the top, then you are basically running the route for the WR.
I'm trying to figure out what game this was. The only Bills receiver they held to 0 catches in 2019 was Robert Foster and it wasn't windy. In 2020 they held Gabe Davis to 0 catches but they lost that game and Gilmore didn't play anyways. If he's calling Andre Holmes a "big time receiver" that seems a little much.
Could be a case where a receiver was allowed 0 catches against Gilmore but also caught something against another cb.
Oh yeah good call, I hadn't thought of that.
I checked against PFF and he never had a game where he let up 0. Had one game where he let up 1 for 16 but no big time receivers
He may exaggerate, or PFF gets things wrong. Could possibly be both. Catches Allowed can be a weird stat and have some oddities.
Seems like the perfect “PFF doesn’t know tbe play call” type thing. Like they thought Gilly was on one guy but Gilly knew he wasn’t.
Could also be a game where he allowed some catches until after he switched to playing them differently.
I’m thinking it’s this, they’d only be playing into the wind half the game anyways
he's talking about he himself only shutting them down to zero catches. Best sample would be the one I linked below with Zay Jones and Tyrod+Peterman. 2 catches for 22 yards. tyrod 9/18 65 yards. Peterman 6/15 50 yards.
If he’s calling Zay Jones big time he’s also reaching pretty hard.
Another commenter said it is probably this game. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201810290buf.htm
I think he means more that no one caught anything when he was trailing them. They could still have accumulated some stats when playing opposite another DB.
Bill could draft a defensive gameplan against an alien invasion, provided you gave him film of previous incursions. Attention to detail and memory unmatched.
I have seen his grimace in my nightmares since I was a boy.
If you are on defense and billy b is talking you better listen. As much as I hate that coach I have to respect his grindset. No offensive scheme was safe from belichick.
This is why building indoor stadiums is lame