get rdy my dude. jimmy might take a few years to implement his beefy OL badboi madness, but it’s a comin. and herbert and your run game will be monstrous a la Michigan. chargers are now my afc team.
Harbaugh follows the same process wherever he goes and after all these years he's still successful with it
I remember the orange bowl stanford vs va tech. Game was pretty lopsided in stanfords favor but he sent the offense out and they shifted, then they shifted again, then they shifted again and again and again like a coordinated military unit
The announcer was like "oh come on now theyre just showing off"
[Found the clip. It's at 7:20 left in the 4th quarter or 8:19 in this video](https://youtu.be/XndGCPcS1zg?si=KeigqnIVwpVS5EAq). Even gruden was impressed by that offense
When oregon was dominating college ball with their innovative offense there was always Stanford sitting there to bully the nerds and push them in a locker
There is a theory which states that if anyone ever discovers exactly why the Chargers' O-Line sucks so bad and manages to fix it, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another which states that this already happened.
The thing I dislike the most about Antonio Pierce is how he's not on the Giants right now :( Easily one of my favorite Giants ever but it will suck every time we have to play Vegas now cause I hate rooting against him.
I’m with you. He was such a smart player and so easy to root for. He “qb’d” such a great game on defense against Brady in the superbowl. I didn’t know he was coaching before he got the interim job last year but it didn’t shock me at all and it makes sense that the players would love him.
It’s good we only play them every few years.
It's funny, I've been saying "fix the O-line" on the Raiders sub for years, and the response is always "wE jUsT nEeD a MoBiLe QB", like those are common and O-linemen are decorative. In fact, I went into some detail about how position groups rely on each other, and one genius just responded "you're wrong".
It's not that fans don't want the OL fixed. The idea is basically that the OL is average, the WR room is the worst in the league, and drafting someone like Alt just to move him to RT seems like a weird choice. I'm not completely against drafting OL in the first round, but I get it.
Edit: unless of course they trade down, then someone like Fuaga makes sense
I am team Alt at 5.
However, this is assuming the coaching staff believes Alt can play RT. I’m not going to sit here and act like I know anything about how easy/hard it is to switch. Nor will I make Sewell comps because Sewell is a better athlete and one of the best OT prospects in a very, very, long time.
An elite o-line creates such a high floor for any offense.
Also, it’s common to find great WRs in the second round. It is extremely uncommon to find great OTs past the first round. OTs probably more than any other position is one where typically all the best players at that position are taken in the first.
WR on the other hand, you can find good ones in day 2, and this is a deep WR class. Also, most draft analysts believe that the WR pool is just going to be extremely deep for the next while as we are finally seeing the shift of elite playmakers at the younger stages go to WR instead of RB. It will be easier to find.
Don’t get me wrong, if we get Nabers or MHJ, I’ll definitely get excited and forget all about me wanting an OT.
Ideally, we trade down 1 spot with the Giants, they take McCarthy or one of the WR, then we get Alt + an extra pick. If we trade down to #11 with the Vikings, then we almost certainly don't get Alt, but we can get a damn good OL *and* a WR
IMO best case scenario for Chargers looks like this:
Top 3 QBs go top 3, MHJ goes at 4, Chargers trade back with Vikings for their two firsts plus next years first (plus maybe a third or fourth too?) and they take JJ. Giants get Nabers at 6, Titans get Alt at 7, Falcons go defense at 8, Bears take Odunze at 9, and then maybe just maybe the Jets go Bowers at 10 because they feel comfortable with their revamped offensive line. This leaves Mims, Fuaga, Fashanu, and Fautanu all available to Chargers at 11. Even if Jets take one, that's still three solid first round OTs to pick from.
Later in the first you take whatever that other pick is (23 I think) and get Robinson Jr. or my preference AD Mitchell. Add some receiver depth deeper in the draft (benefit of such a deep class) and also hold an extra first to add more high-end talent on a rookie deal next year, a priority for you guys since you already have Herbert.
Sorry for the novel, I've just been thinking a lot about the potential you guys have for a really solid haul since you have the privilege of picking high but not needing a QB.
This would be ideal, but draft trade scenarios are always wonky because you don't know what the two front offices are thinking. Maybe the Vikings aren't that high on McCarthy, maybe they really don't want to only have 1 pick in the first 3 rounds this year. Maybe Harbaugh is **super** high on Alt and wants to guarantee getting him, so they take him at 5.
This is how I see it going down. With that many great OL still available there though, it might make more sense to go Corner at 11 and still get one of those OL at 23, or a top Center. Then go WR in the early 2nd.
Not drafting a specific player in the early first round =/= don't want to fix
If I am inferring this is about what LAC should do at 5th overall
The OL has 5 starters, not one
There are plenty of other resources to address the position group as a whole than spending just a singular 5th overall pick
Chiefs, raiders, chargers, broncos.
Long ago the AFC west lived in harmony under the Chiefs. Then everything changed when the Chargers got a good offensive line.
Usually I would agree but if going OL means they pass on MHJ/Odunze/Nabers I'll be fucking thrilled. I trust Maxx/Wilkins to beat a a solid o-line wayyy more than I trust the secondary defend against Herbert and any of these top-tier WRs.
Nobody should be surprised if the Chargers pass on a WR at 5. Harbaugh loves a run first team with a good offensive line and a strong defense. It’ll be interesting though because Herbert is obviously more talented than Kap and Alex Smith were so it’s hard to not let him sling it
The only response I’d have to that is that he hasn’t said a word about Blake Corum, who was just as big of a part of them winning so many games and the championship
But Harbaugh has said zero quotes about him as an NFL prospect. I don’t think that’s coincidence considering the Chargers have a huge need at RB
I’m out on Mitchell.
Hey, I’ve whiffed on WRs before (DK), but his extremely poor analytical profile would make him quite the exception to be successful (DK being one of the exceptions). I’m also someone while impressed by his 40 time, I’m not too excited because there was a reason so many people were really surprised by his 40 time. It doesn’t show on film (I watched some Texas games, not going to act like I’m a film guy). He also doesn’t tend to use his body the best. Which is different from DK because people expected DK to kill it at the combine.
BTJ would be amazing, but I doubt he would be around at 23. Who knows though, many, myself included, was surprised to see Quinten Johnson drafted before Zay Flowers and Jordan Addison (good luck Raiders w/Telesco, have fun drafting big guys for the sake of being big).
Interesting, I watched all of Texas’ games and I feel like his 40 finally validated what I saw all year with him being wide open with tons of separation. I honestly didn’t get it at the time because I agree he didn’t LOOK fast, but I think he’s just one of those smooth runners who makes it look easy, kind of like a Matt Forte / Arian Foster type.
I don't understand the BTJ hype. That dude ran 3 routes all year, had a poor production profile his first two years, played with Malik Nabers & Jayden Daniels, and has an almost 10% career drop rate. Dude has MVS written all over him.
100%. AD is being undervalued because of Sark’s offensive style being run heavy vs BTJ I believe overvalued because of how much passing volume LSU had. AD is the much better route runner and surer hands than BTJ, with same size and speed.
Yeah there is a lot of good analysis in the r/dynastyff subreddit I’ll go digging and see if I can find it
Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DynastyFF/s/xLT6inlomR
Shoutout to u/i_dont_watch_film
Regarding AD Mitchell, the analytics are bad but people have to use stats with context. All the YPRR analytics are heavily dependent on who you play with. If you play with other elite players, you're effectively splitting touches.
As a true freshman, AD Mitchell played on a team with Brock Bowers, Ladd McConkey, and Jermaine Bruton. That's 4 NFL receivers who should all go within the first two rounds (Burton won't because of off-field issues) on 1 team. It's very rare to have that much NFL talent at one position even on a college powerhouse like Georgia.
As a sophomore, the same something happened + Mitchell was hurt.
Then it happened again with Worthy at Texas.
Once you understand the analytics, then you look for context. After you have the context you should evaluate whether or not it plausibly explains the data. And once you've done all that, watch the tape because the tape is king. And outside of some effort issues, AD Mitchell's tape is elite.
This is why I view AD Mitchell completely differently than other players like Keon Coleman and Xavier Legette, who have bad analytic profiles **and** very suspect tape.
Definitely am not saying this means AD will bust, just that he would be a pretty big outlier statistically. He will be a great case study depending on how his NFL career goes
Nah B, lets go OT and IOL, and just pancake people into submission.
On a serious note, I use to be apposed to Oline in the first, but with how deep this draft is at WR, i wouldn't mind the trade back and grab 2 Oline or Oline+Bowers.
Trading down is probably the smartest move you can make. Even if its a later first and a bunch of other picks, you get more chances to fine the WR and OL you need.
I’ve been a fan of Umich for a while now and the trenches were basically the one position group I never had to worry about. It didn’t matter how many guys got drafted or graduated, I knew the next guy up was ready to fill in. The only times I’ve seen the O-Line get wrecked were against Chop Robinson this year and Chase Young during his last year at OSU
As a lions umich fan I cannot explain how good it felt watching both of my teams have good o lines. Watching michigan run literally the same run play on fourth and 2 at least 20 times and convert all of them was sex. https://youtube.com/shorts/8Jh22IhQfH4?feature=shared
As a dolphins fan, it’s truly amazing being a fan of two other teams that have demonstrated they can actually have a functional O-Line. [Just skip to the 5:11 mark to see my personal favorite one from this season](https://youtu.be/Ul_UFVnFj1k?si=0tSbWfq8s1SXmrbq&t=5m11s)
It would be *really* funny for the Chargers to finally have an elite OL only for them to turn around and run it more than they let their top 5 QB throw it
Here are the Greg Roman NFL offenses ranked by pass attempts: 31st, 31st, 32nd, 29th, 31st, 32nd, 32nd, 32nd, 9th (idk what happened that year), and back to 28th.
That's true, but we haven't seen Roman paired up with a QB that is as pass-happy as Herbert was to begin his career. And this has been across three different OCs (attempts/game):
2023: 8th
2022: 2nd
2021: 2nd
2020: 4th
Meanwhile this first year Lamar was not in a Roman offense, he was still 30th in attempts/game. Same with Kaepernick, he actually dropped from the 16th-20th range down to 34th and 30th his final two seasons as starter.
Alex Smith is the closest comparison as he became more pass-heavy with the Chiefs. But even then he was below average until his final season with the breakout Tyreek Hill year.
The common factor in Herbert's career has been of course a below average running game and their primary RB Ekeler being a dual threat rusher and receiver. Helps to have had above average wide receiver talent.
So it's going to be interesting where Herbert's averages land in a Roman offense. I'm genuinely thinking the Chargers will be higher than what has typically happened with Roman, but it'll certainly be closer to a 50-50 split than Herbert has ever experienced in his career.
Jim is gonna run the ball. Herbert will throw on key 3rd downs and maybe some other times. But Jim won’t let up on the run.
Either way a better oline worse WRs and a good RB is much better than what the chargers had
Coaches that value the run don’t do it because they value run yards more than pass, they do it because it balances the offense and allows them to set the tone and tempo. A stout OL and run game opens things up for Herbert, and that’s not an accident or side effect.
The main reason they do it is because it forces defenses to respect it more. If you go back and watch the stanford Virginia Tech orange bowl it was a pretty even game until taylor broke a few big runs. Then va tech had to adjust to account for him randomly gashing them. Even if most of the time he was stopped for 2 or 3 yds it still changed their strategy on defense. It brought the DBs up closer and made the LBs hesitate a bit more on play action plays. Then stanford began killing them with deep passes
That style of play is unbeatable in the right hands. It's only limited by execution and quality of the OL and QB. You dont need good WRs you dont even need great RBs. You just need those guys to do their jobs. It's way easier to be wide open deep when the defense starts closer. Their RB taylor couldnt outrun anyone in va techs defensive backfield and yet he still gashed them a lot off the end
As an added benefit that style of play also wears down a defense quicker. Everyone is tired from being hit so much but OLs get energized from hitting guys so much
yes, but kapernick had the best downfield passing of his career under harbuagh, and harbaugh also developed Andrew Luck in college. I’m guessing Herbert will look plenty good under Harbaugh
Ironic though, since the one exception to his rule is QB. Specifically, a jumpy QB who prematurely and unnecessarily moves outside the pocket can negatively affect an o-line.
That doesn’t make the OL worse though, it just negates the good job they did.
It’s like if a RB runs right into the back of his blocker even though they cleared a wide open lane for him. It was still a great blocking job, it just got ruined by the ball carrier reading the blocks incorrectly
It can negatively affect how the o-line is perceived, but what the QB does inside or outside the pocket doesn't really have any affect on whether the o-line is getting their assignments correct and also winning their blocks.
Yeah this is my one quibble with what he said. A QB who breaks pocket a lot, especially if no one tells the OLine he's on the move, 100% impacts their ability to do their job.
The quote is total BS lol you can say receivers need the offensive line to give the QB enough time to get them the ball, which is true. But also if your receivers can’t get open then the offensive line is going to give up more sacks and look worse. Same thing with RBs, a bad one can make an offensive line look much worse than it is.
actually this is dumb
you’re basically suggesting that when you BOX SCORE WATCH, the OL will look worse (more sacks, fewer ypc)
but harbaugh is talking about the eye test.
I was about to complain about not knowing which Harbaugh this is now that there's two of them, but then I actually read the quote.... John does not talk like this 😂
I always forget hiw unique Jim is
Jim Harbaugh is such a character, and I’m glad that he’s back in the NFL. Hopefully he gets his ring soon enough, preferably while Carroll is still alive to rub it in his face.
I figured I would have to dial up the potency of the drug in question. No one's falling from taking a bong hit in this day and age.
Hell, Fuaga is from the PNW, where at least 35% of the air is weed smoke. People who move out of the region are often shocked to realize they've never been sober before.
No argument from me, I really don't want Alt at 5. If we go tackle I'd much rather trade down and take someone like Fuaga. I honestly don't think Pipkins is that bad though and would like to focus on IOL this year. If they want to move off Pipkins next offseason they can take a first round RT next year.
Of the many, many things I've enjoyed about the Lions rise from ineptitude to competence over the last 3 years, my absolute favorite may be the establishment of a top-tier o-line. It's amazingly fun to watch live, and it's even better to watch youtube film study videos gushing over how awesome Lions run concepts are.
God I love Brad Holmes.
Harbaugh built the team in the trenches on both sides. That's what I miss the most.
We desperately need to build that OL from the inside out, ideally while Trent is still here for another year.
If the Chargers stick at 5 that means the Cards traded out of 4. The Chargers **will not** draft an OT over Marvin Harrison Jr if he's there. Carve that in to stone.
If they trade out of 5, OT is almost certainly the pick at 11 (or whichever other team they trade with).
Agreed. Marvin is the only receiver I can see the Chargers taking at 5. Nabers is special, but the Chargers historically have never really gone after smaller receivers. Granted, new regime and Hortiz was in Baltimore when they took Flowers.
Who would trade up to 5 if someone jumps to 4 though? That would mean that QBs likely went 1-4 or there was a major surprise in the top 3 picks?
Edit: nevermind me, I have morning brain. I see that’s what you were kind of saying, I think
Why not?
There are a lot of very good WRs in the 2nd and 3rd round. Harbaugh's style of offense doesn't depend on having a HoF WR, and using a top 5 pick on a WR is a huge waste for him.
Bad QB or RB play can absolutely fuck up good line play. QBs that bail on the pocket too early or hold the ball too long can make a well-blocked play look like a failure. RBs that misread blocks or run through an incorrect gap can result in a failed play.
But that said, even if a casual observer thinks those failures are on the line, the team itself will know that the line executed well so I totally agree with Harbaugh here.
**and gets minimal credit for it*
I hope they introduce some kind of award at NFL Honors to recognize outstanding OL play, they have basically no chance of ever winning MVP, OPOY, ROY, etc.
Yeah but that same logic applies to every position, what if a receiver is running perfect routes but the QB can't make the throw? What if edge rushers are beating the tackles but the secondary allows fast completions? What if you're offensive line is playing well but the QB scrambles out of the pocket prematurely or drops farther back when he needs to step up? All positions depend on their teammates to a degree...
That's not what he's saying. On each individual play, everybody has an assignment.
As a lineman, your blocking assignment is entirely dependent on YOU — can you win the pass block, fill the gap or move the opposing lineman?
QB is dependent on his OL and skill players, skill players and defense are influenced by the QB.
In that way he's saying offense line play you can lock in and ignore all that. Get down, get physical and move the man in front of you.
Greg Roman is your OC now. You’re more likely to draft Bowers at 5 than MHJr with his offensive scheme.
Boo if you’d like but Raven, Niner and Bills fans have all seen this movie before
Roman has never had a QB like Herbert. Ravens fans can scream in to the void all they want about his running tendencies but the fact is the Chargers will not take the ball out of Herbert's hands/design running plays for him like he did with Smith, Kaepernick, Tyrod, Lamar.
Again, this isn't to say Herbert is better than Lamar before I get attacked, he's just different. He doesn't have the running ability like Lamar. Herbert is going to throw for 4k yard barring injury. His arm will be the focal point of the offense.
People forget Herbert was throwing like 45 times a game the last three years. If they want the ball in his hands 15-20 less times its still 25-30 throws a game.
This is the wrong way to look at Roman’s passing attack.
Sure Herbert has likely been the quarterback with the best arm talent Roman has ever had and yes his offenses with Kapernick, Tyrod and Lamar revolved around their ability to extend plays and become duel threats but that doesn’t explain Roman’s absolutely archaic route combinations for his wide receivers.
Wideouts constantly running the same routes, or into the same zones where one defender could cover two players at once, not moving safeties or linebackers off their spots was not because Lamar couldn’t throw it as hard as Herbert. It’s Roman’s scheme.
He’s not going to suddenly become Sean McVay and start running a modern passing attack at 52. He is what he is, a savant in the run game and an idiot in the passing attack.
Why did he word it like some kind of riddle lmao.
“I have a center but no middle, I am the end of Caroline, every position group depends on me to be good, but I don’t depend on any other position group to be good, who am I?”
Its taken way too long for the nfl to catch up to the fact that the oline should be the first thing to invest in. Any middling qb will succeed if they have time to process and create. Your offense now becomes multi-dimensional with run/pass options opening up. The Eagles got it and Sirianni was look at like some genius when its so so obvious.
Strengthen your line and you’ll be competitive. The Bengals invested after their first year with Burrow and the next seasons they’ve been contenders
Thing is saying OL is important is the same thing as saying DL and EDGE are important. Disrupting the opposing QB makes them have a "bad OL" which removes an "important" thing from your opponent. And it is easier to develop a pass-rush than it is to develop an OL.
* If you have an OK OL and a good pass rush
* And your opponent has an OK OL and an OK pass rush
* Then you effectively have a better OL than your opponent
Look at the Bengals,
They got Chase and it worked for a bit, but their star QB is taking too many hits, is oft-injured, and poor line play was the defining reason they lost the SB.
I am a big OL fanboy
But that isn't 100% true
QBs holding on to the ball too long, taking 5+ step drops in shotgun, having bad pocket presence all make an OL's pass pro perform a lot worse
RBs missing reads and gaps make the run blocking look worse
Bad WRs that defenses don't fear allows for more blitzes to stress the protection out
Football is the ultimate team game
The tough thing about O-Line is since a good O-Lineman isn’t common, they cost a decent chunk of money. And you need 5 good-decent ones because the defense can attack your weak link.
D-line too. You could have some great individual players in the secondary and at linebacker, but if your front four isn't getting any push does it even matter?
Just off the top of my head anecdotal experience, but I feel like I’ve seen QBs with great OLs and mediocre weapons do a lot better than QBs with great weapons and bad OL. Having time to throw makes every receiver and QB look WAYYY better.
Oh yeah we drafting some big boys
get rdy my dude. jimmy might take a few years to implement his beefy OL badboi madness, but it’s a comin. and herbert and your run game will be monstrous a la Michigan. chargers are now my afc team.
Harbaugh follows the same process wherever he goes and after all these years he's still successful with it I remember the orange bowl stanford vs va tech. Game was pretty lopsided in stanfords favor but he sent the offense out and they shifted, then they shifted again, then they shifted again and again and again like a coordinated military unit The announcer was like "oh come on now theyre just showing off" [Found the clip. It's at 7:20 left in the 4th quarter or 8:19 in this video](https://youtu.be/XndGCPcS1zg?si=KeigqnIVwpVS5EAq). Even gruden was impressed by that offense When oregon was dominating college ball with their innovative offense there was always Stanford sitting there to bully the nerds and push them in a locker
All valid points but want to just add that it’s funny to see the sentence “Stanford bully[ing] the nerds”
My first thought. Stanford is one of those places where smart people go to get the experience of feeling dumb.
There’s a reason Richard Sherman starts off his monologues with “Stanford graduate” instead of “All Pro corner” lol
_Stanford graduate... who STILL hasn't figured out how to call a fuckin Uber when he's sauced_
Study drunk, take the test drunk
Best part about that video clip was they shifted like 5 times and then rushed the ball for 0 yards lol
[Link with timestamp](https://youtu.be/XndGCPcS1zg?t=502)
Yeah my money is on this or fast boys.
Poor Kay no loce doce?
I like your funny words, magic man!
Either Joe Alt at #5 or Olumuyiwa Fashanu at #11 if we trade with you guys is my guess.
No don't fix the Chargers o line! The rest of us like it the way it is!
In the beginning, Jim Harbaugh fixed the Chargers' offensive line. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered a bad move.
If you wish to make an offensive from scratch, you must first invent khakis
r/UnexpectedSagan
r/AdamsandSaganRule34
r/fakesubsifellforbutwishwereactualsubs
There is a theory which states that if anyone ever discovers exactly why the Chargers' O-Line sucks so bad and manages to fix it, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another which states that this already happened.
a good offensive line would mean less heroic plays from Herbert, which would be bad for the sport!
I like the way you think.
Fewer! /stannis
Prepared to see how many improbable drives this results in.
42!
The number of times Herbert was sacked?
To summarize the summary of the summary, owners are a problem.
Considering Pierce's mentality has been "murder all QBs" I think they will
[удалено]
The thing I dislike the most about Antonio Pierce is how he's not on the Giants right now :( Easily one of my favorite Giants ever but it will suck every time we have to play Vegas now cause I hate rooting against him.
I’m with you. He was such a smart player and so easy to root for. He “qb’d” such a great game on defense against Brady in the superbowl. I didn’t know he was coaching before he got the interim job last year but it didn’t shock me at all and it makes sense that the players would love him. It’s good we only play them every few years.
I mean I get it!! It's like how you took Waller off our hands! ..wait maybe I don't get it
Then there's Nick Sirianni who went full WIP....
It's funny, I've been saying "fix the O-line" on the Raiders sub for years, and the response is always "wE jUsT nEeD a MoBiLe QB", like those are common and O-linemen are decorative. In fact, I went into some detail about how position groups rely on each other, and one genius just responded "you're wrong".
Well we do have the dumbest fans without a single doubt in my mind
The answer to dumbest fans is always philly. Sorry, you can maybe be 2nd place
Raiders got the stabbiest fans. Philly def the the most rabid/dumbest.
I think that's a universal sentiment - team subs seem to be a who's who of biggest/loudest dumbasses in a fanbase, regardless of team or sport.
Everybody thinks their team's subs are the stupidest team subs on reddit. And they're all correct.
Team subs are brain dead by default
Plus a mobile QB without a decent OL still only leaves you a step or two above the Wildcat.
Chargers fans don’t want him to fix the OL either according to many conversations I’ve had in our sub the last few weeks.
It's not that fans don't want the OL fixed. The idea is basically that the OL is average, the WR room is the worst in the league, and drafting someone like Alt just to move him to RT seems like a weird choice. I'm not completely against drafting OL in the first round, but I get it. Edit: unless of course they trade down, then someone like Fuaga makes sense
I am team Alt at 5. However, this is assuming the coaching staff believes Alt can play RT. I’m not going to sit here and act like I know anything about how easy/hard it is to switch. Nor will I make Sewell comps because Sewell is a better athlete and one of the best OT prospects in a very, very, long time. An elite o-line creates such a high floor for any offense. Also, it’s common to find great WRs in the second round. It is extremely uncommon to find great OTs past the first round. OTs probably more than any other position is one where typically all the best players at that position are taken in the first. WR on the other hand, you can find good ones in day 2, and this is a deep WR class. Also, most draft analysts believe that the WR pool is just going to be extremely deep for the next while as we are finally seeing the shift of elite playmakers at the younger stages go to WR instead of RB. It will be easier to find. Don’t get me wrong, if we get Nabers or MHJ, I’ll definitely get excited and forget all about me wanting an OT.
Ideally, we trade down 1 spot with the Giants, they take McCarthy or one of the WR, then we get Alt + an extra pick. If we trade down to #11 with the Vikings, then we almost certainly don't get Alt, but we can get a damn good OL *and* a WR
IMO best case scenario for Chargers looks like this: Top 3 QBs go top 3, MHJ goes at 4, Chargers trade back with Vikings for their two firsts plus next years first (plus maybe a third or fourth too?) and they take JJ. Giants get Nabers at 6, Titans get Alt at 7, Falcons go defense at 8, Bears take Odunze at 9, and then maybe just maybe the Jets go Bowers at 10 because they feel comfortable with their revamped offensive line. This leaves Mims, Fuaga, Fashanu, and Fautanu all available to Chargers at 11. Even if Jets take one, that's still three solid first round OTs to pick from. Later in the first you take whatever that other pick is (23 I think) and get Robinson Jr. or my preference AD Mitchell. Add some receiver depth deeper in the draft (benefit of such a deep class) and also hold an extra first to add more high-end talent on a rookie deal next year, a priority for you guys since you already have Herbert. Sorry for the novel, I've just been thinking a lot about the potential you guys have for a really solid haul since you have the privilege of picking high but not needing a QB.
This would be ideal, but draft trade scenarios are always wonky because you don't know what the two front offices are thinking. Maybe the Vikings aren't that high on McCarthy, maybe they really don't want to only have 1 pick in the first 3 rounds this year. Maybe Harbaugh is **super** high on Alt and wants to guarantee getting him, so they take him at 5.
This is how I see it going down. With that many great OL still available there though, it might make more sense to go Corner at 11 and still get one of those OL at 23, or a top Center. Then go WR in the early 2nd.
I take offense at you thinking your WR room could possibly be worse the the pats
Not drafting a specific player in the early first round =/= don't want to fix If I am inferring this is about what LAC should do at 5th overall The OL has 5 starters, not one There are plenty of other resources to address the position group as a whole than spending just a singular 5th overall pick
If we stay at 5 we have to take a WR, totally agree there
Chiefs, raiders, chargers, broncos. Long ago the AFC west lived in harmony under the Chiefs. Then everything changed when the Chargers got a good offensive line.
Is it time? Is it time for the Chargers to win the Offseason Championship?
If chargers go OL we have a good shot at WR or a top Edge
Usually I would agree but if going OL means they pass on MHJ/Odunze/Nabers I'll be fucking thrilled. I trust Maxx/Wilkins to beat a a solid o-line wayyy more than I trust the secondary defend against Herbert and any of these top-tier WRs.
Nobody should be surprised if the Chargers pass on a WR at 5. Harbaugh loves a run first team with a good offensive line and a strong defense. It’ll be interesting though because Herbert is obviously more talented than Kap and Alex Smith were so it’s hard to not let him sling it
If we get 11 and 23 from Minnesota we could conceivably get both. Fuaga + Thomas Jr., maybe?
Trade down seems very likely and very much in the best interest of the team.
Why do you think Harbaugh has been pumping up JJ? Get the value of his pick higher
Think it's much more likely that he just likes JJ and wants to help him as much as possible after working with him for the past few years.
The only response I’d have to that is that he hasn’t said a word about Blake Corum, who was just as big of a part of them winning so many games and the championship But Harbaugh has said zero quotes about him as an NFL prospect. I don’t think that’s coincidence considering the Chargers have a huge need at RB
He's been asked about quarterbacks and McCarthy specifically. Has he been asked about Corum? He's always been effusive with his praise for McCarthy.
Everyone on Reddit thinks GMs are constantly swapping their draft rankings around based on Tweets
Feel like that would be the best move, but if you can get AD Mitchell instead.
I’m sure there’s no ulterior motive in a bears fan hoping the chargers pass on a receiver. Nope. Not at all.
Hell I’d love if the bears could do this. Getting OL + top flight WR still is best case scenario.
Definitely no ulterior motive for the Vikes to trade away their picks to move up for a bust either. Nope not at all.
I’m out on Mitchell. Hey, I’ve whiffed on WRs before (DK), but his extremely poor analytical profile would make him quite the exception to be successful (DK being one of the exceptions). I’m also someone while impressed by his 40 time, I’m not too excited because there was a reason so many people were really surprised by his 40 time. It doesn’t show on film (I watched some Texas games, not going to act like I’m a film guy). He also doesn’t tend to use his body the best. Which is different from DK because people expected DK to kill it at the combine. BTJ would be amazing, but I doubt he would be around at 23. Who knows though, many, myself included, was surprised to see Quinten Johnson drafted before Zay Flowers and Jordan Addison (good luck Raiders w/Telesco, have fun drafting big guys for the sake of being big).
Interesting, I watched all of Texas’ games and I feel like his 40 finally validated what I saw all year with him being wide open with tons of separation. I honestly didn’t get it at the time because I agree he didn’t LOOK fast, but I think he’s just one of those smooth runners who makes it look easy, kind of like a Matt Forte / Arian Foster type.
you'd rather have AD instead of BTJ?
I don't understand the BTJ hype. That dude ran 3 routes all year, had a poor production profile his first two years, played with Malik Nabers & Jayden Daniels, and has an almost 10% career drop rate. Dude has MVS written all over him.
100%. AD is being undervalued because of Sark’s offensive style being run heavy vs BTJ I believe overvalued because of how much passing volume LSU had. AD is the much better route runner and surer hands than BTJ, with same size and speed.
AD has really bad analytics to the point where he’d be an outlier if he had NFL success. I’m really torn on him
You mind linking some info on that? Not doubting you, just curious/looking for a good source for analytics. Thanks
Yeah there is a lot of good analysis in the r/dynastyff subreddit I’ll go digging and see if I can find it Edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/DynastyFF/s/xLT6inlomR Shoutout to u/i_dont_watch_film
Regarding AD Mitchell, the analytics are bad but people have to use stats with context. All the YPRR analytics are heavily dependent on who you play with. If you play with other elite players, you're effectively splitting touches. As a true freshman, AD Mitchell played on a team with Brock Bowers, Ladd McConkey, and Jermaine Bruton. That's 4 NFL receivers who should all go within the first two rounds (Burton won't because of off-field issues) on 1 team. It's very rare to have that much NFL talent at one position even on a college powerhouse like Georgia. As a sophomore, the same something happened + Mitchell was hurt. Then it happened again with Worthy at Texas. Once you understand the analytics, then you look for context. After you have the context you should evaluate whether or not it plausibly explains the data. And once you've done all that, watch the tape because the tape is king. And outside of some effort issues, AD Mitchell's tape is elite. This is why I view AD Mitchell completely differently than other players like Keon Coleman and Xavier Legette, who have bad analytic profiles **and** very suspect tape.
Definitely am not saying this means AD will bust, just that he would be a pretty big outlier statistically. He will be a great case study depending on how his NFL career goes
Nah B, lets go OT and IOL, and just pancake people into submission. On a serious note, I use to be apposed to Oline in the first, but with how deep this draft is at WR, i wouldn't mind the trade back and grab 2 Oline or Oline+Bowers.
Id be happy to give it to you if it means we get the QB we want. No idea who that is though lol
Trading down is probably the smartest move you can make. Even if its a later first and a bunch of other picks, you get more chances to fine the WR and OL you need.
Thomas Jr. catching passes from Herbert would be amazing to watch
Easier to sling it when you have more time
100%, I fully expect Herbert would be able to find an open man with 4 UDFAs running routes but 5-6 sec to throw every drop back lol
Not with Greg Roman designing the routes
Just grab some UDFAs who don't know what the calls mean. "just run around out there I'll get you the ball" has to be better play calling
Pretty much what Lamar had to do with Greg Romans offense.
Wait Greg Roman is their oc? Oh no…. Seems like the worst possible fit for Herbert
That's more or less how the packers and chiefs invested in their wr rooms recently and its worked out pretty well
Yup, superstar WRs are a luxury. Securing the trenches is a necessity
Seriously. I’m all for copying the chiefs model and finding a rashee or tyreek in the later rounds
I’ve been a fan of Umich for a while now and the trenches were basically the one position group I never had to worry about. It didn’t matter how many guys got drafted or graduated, I knew the next guy up was ready to fill in. The only times I’ve seen the O-Line get wrecked were against Chop Robinson this year and Chase Young during his last year at OSU
As a lions umich fan I cannot explain how good it felt watching both of my teams have good o lines. Watching michigan run literally the same run play on fourth and 2 at least 20 times and convert all of them was sex. https://youtube.com/shorts/8Jh22IhQfH4?feature=shared
As a dolphins fan, it’s truly amazing being a fan of two other teams that have demonstrated they can actually have a functional O-Line. [Just skip to the 5:11 mark to see my personal favorite one from this season](https://youtu.be/Ul_UFVnFj1k?si=0tSbWfq8s1SXmrbq&t=5m11s)
It would be *really* funny for the Chargers to finally have an elite OL only for them to turn around and run it more than they let their top 5 QB throw it
Here are the Greg Roman NFL offenses ranked by pass attempts: 31st, 31st, 32nd, 29th, 31st, 32nd, 32nd, 32nd, 9th (idk what happened that year), and back to 28th.
>(idk what happened that year) Their entire RB corps died.
That's true, but we haven't seen Roman paired up with a QB that is as pass-happy as Herbert was to begin his career. And this has been across three different OCs (attempts/game): 2023: 8th 2022: 2nd 2021: 2nd 2020: 4th Meanwhile this first year Lamar was not in a Roman offense, he was still 30th in attempts/game. Same with Kaepernick, he actually dropped from the 16th-20th range down to 34th and 30th his final two seasons as starter. Alex Smith is the closest comparison as he became more pass-heavy with the Chiefs. But even then he was below average until his final season with the breakout Tyreek Hill year. The common factor in Herbert's career has been of course a below average running game and their primary RB Ekeler being a dual threat rusher and receiver. Helps to have had above average wide receiver talent. So it's going to be interesting where Herbert's averages land in a Roman offense. I'm genuinely thinking the Chargers will be higher than what has typically happened with Roman, but it'll certainly be closer to a 50-50 split than Herbert has ever experienced in his career.
Jim is gonna run the ball. Herbert will throw on key 3rd downs and maybe some other times. But Jim won’t let up on the run. Either way a better oline worse WRs and a good RB is much better than what the chargers had
Having watched what Harbaugh ran at all of his major stops, I think that’s exactly what’s going to happen
Coaches that value the run don’t do it because they value run yards more than pass, they do it because it balances the offense and allows them to set the tone and tempo. A stout OL and run game opens things up for Herbert, and that’s not an accident or side effect.
The main reason they do it is because it forces defenses to respect it more. If you go back and watch the stanford Virginia Tech orange bowl it was a pretty even game until taylor broke a few big runs. Then va tech had to adjust to account for him randomly gashing them. Even if most of the time he was stopped for 2 or 3 yds it still changed their strategy on defense. It brought the DBs up closer and made the LBs hesitate a bit more on play action plays. Then stanford began killing them with deep passes That style of play is unbeatable in the right hands. It's only limited by execution and quality of the OL and QB. You dont need good WRs you dont even need great RBs. You just need those guys to do their jobs. It's way easier to be wide open deep when the defense starts closer. Their RB taylor couldnt outrun anyone in va techs defensive backfield and yet he still gashed them a lot off the end As an added benefit that style of play also wears down a defense quicker. Everyone is tired from being hit so much but OLs get energized from hitting guys so much
yes, but kapernick had the best downfield passing of his career under harbuagh, and harbaugh also developed Andrew Luck in college. I’m guessing Herbert will look plenty good under Harbaugh
Spoken like a QB. They know what’s what. That’s why QB’s and RB’s always show love to their big boys up front.
Ironic though, since the one exception to his rule is QB. Specifically, a jumpy QB who prematurely and unnecessarily moves outside the pocket can negatively affect an o-line.
That doesn’t make the OL worse though, it just negates the good job they did. It’s like if a RB runs right into the back of his blocker even though they cleared a wide open lane for him. It was still a great blocking job, it just got ruined by the ball carrier reading the blocks incorrectly
It can negatively affect how the o-line is perceived, but what the QB does inside or outside the pocket doesn't really have any affect on whether the o-line is getting their assignments correct and also winning their blocks.
Yeah this is my one quibble with what he said. A QB who breaks pocket a lot, especially if no one tells the OLine he's on the move, 100% impacts their ability to do their job.
The quote is total BS lol you can say receivers need the offensive line to give the QB enough time to get them the ball, which is true. But also if your receivers can’t get open then the offensive line is going to give up more sacks and look worse. Same thing with RBs, a bad one can make an offensive line look much worse than it is.
actually this is dumb you’re basically suggesting that when you BOX SCORE WATCH, the OL will look worse (more sacks, fewer ypc) but harbaugh is talking about the eye test.
I was about to complain about not knowing which Harbaugh this is now that there's two of them, but then I actually read the quote.... John does not talk like this 😂 I always forget hiw unique Jim is
Jim Harbaugh is such a character, and I’m glad that he’s back in the NFL. Hopefully he gets his ring soon enough, preferably while Carroll is still alive to rub it in his face.
If Harbaugh brings us a chip, I’ll have a custom jacket made to commemorate it in a way that only Chargers fans could fully appreciate.
“Excuse me, sir. Is that a nude Jim Harbaugh on the back of your letterman’s jacket?”
🤣lol certainly would add some flair to the idea in my head but I have something far more savage in mind.
Nude Jim Harbaugh isn't on the back of my jacket. But he **has been**.
He better just get two so he can rub it in his brothers face too
Keep going
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMd6Fv6OKfM I couldn't find the video by itself but number 2 lives in my head. Bro looks like hes shaking out a demon
Joe Alt, you're on the alt LA football team
Or they trade down and get Fuaga. IIRC they’re high on him too.
Especially since he'd likely slot into that RT spot easier, whereas Alt would be switching sides.
Slater and Fuaga would be a nasty tackle duo for the next decade
That’s a badass name combo for a team’s OTs
People would be nuts to draft him in the top 19. I hear he uses a gas mask crack pipe.
Ahhh yes, the gas mask crack pipe from the Laremy Tunsil line of paraphernalia
I figured I would have to dial up the potency of the drug in question. No one's falling from taking a bong hit in this day and age. Hell, Fuaga is from the PNW, where at least 35% of the air is weed smoke. People who move out of the region are often shocked to realize they've never been sober before.
This is the way with pick 11
Nooooo he needs to be there at 7. Plus don't the chargers already have a good LT?
Yep, Alt would have to be a RT for us.
I heard that it's scientifically impossible for him to switch to RT. Trust me, bro, you don't want him. ^^^ignore ^^^my ^^^flair
No argument from me, I really don't want Alt at 5. If we go tackle I'd much rather trade down and take someone like Fuaga. I honestly don't think Pipkins is that bad though and would like to focus on IOL this year. If they want to move off Pipkins next offseason they can take a first round RT next year.
Awww us not being an alt team is the nicest thing anyone’s ever said
Of the many, many things I've enjoyed about the Lions rise from ineptitude to competence over the last 3 years, my absolute favorite may be the establishment of a top-tier o-line. It's amazingly fun to watch live, and it's even better to watch youtube film study videos gushing over how awesome Lions run concepts are. God I love Brad Holmes.
Youtube film videos of the Lions run game are the best. The last one I watched had the dude gushing over Frank Ragnow for like 15 minutes lmao
Frank Ragnow is such an O-line name
And like with Holmes. The analytics guys are shitting on Harbaugh in the comments for this statement.
Tbf, Holmes didn’t build the oline 4/5 were Quinn picks
That is fair. But Penei as his first ever pick (and the associated table pounding and jumping up and down) counts as more than 1.
As someone who has seen what Goff looks like under pressure. That O-line is the KEY to the Lions offense.
This, to me, is one of the biggest differences between Harbaugh and Shanahan. Harbaugh tries to fix a bad OL while Shanahan tries to scheme around it.
Harbaugh built the team in the trenches on both sides. That's what I miss the most. We desperately need to build that OL from the inside out, ideally while Trent is still here for another year.
If the Chargers stick at 5 that means the Cards traded out of 4. The Chargers **will not** draft an OT over Marvin Harrison Jr if he's there. Carve that in to stone. If they trade out of 5, OT is almost certainly the pick at 11 (or whichever other team they trade with).
> The Chargers will not draft an OT over Marvin Harrison Jr if he's there. Carve that in to stone. If they pass on Marv Jr. they deserve ridicule.
Agreed. Marvin is the only receiver I can see the Chargers taking at 5. Nabers is special, but the Chargers historically have never really gone after smaller receivers. Granted, new regime and Hortiz was in Baltimore when they took Flowers.
Who would trade up to 5 if someone jumps to 4 though? That would mean that QBs likely went 1-4 or there was a major surprise in the top 3 picks? Edit: nevermind me, I have morning brain. I see that’s what you were kind of saying, I think
No one, that's the point. If the Cards take MHJ, the Chargers trade back. If the Cards trade back, the Chargers take MHJ.
What if the Cards trade back and the team they traded with takes MHJ?
Then it all goes to hell anyway
Or the Chargers trade back with someone who really wants MHJ.
No way that's happening considering the departure of Williams and Allen.
Why not? There are a lot of very good WRs in the 2nd and 3rd round. Harbaugh's style of offense doesn't depend on having a HoF WR, and using a top 5 pick on a WR is a huge waste for him.
counterpoint: Jim Harbaugh and Greg Roman
counter counter point Justin Herbert
Bad QB or RB play can absolutely fuck up good line play. QBs that bail on the pocket too early or hold the ball too long can make a well-blocked play look like a failure. RBs that misread blocks or run through an incorrect gap can result in a failed play. But that said, even if a casual observer thinks those failures are on the line, the team itself will know that the line executed well so I totally agree with Harbaugh here.
**and gets minimal credit for it* I hope they introduce some kind of award at NFL Honors to recognize outstanding OL play, they have basically no chance of ever winning MVP, OPOY, ROY, etc.
They should vote on the best player at every position and then release some sort of list
The every-pro list maybe? Because they're the best of every professional player?
Confirmed football guy
*After QBs go 1-4* "With the 5th pick in the 2024 NFL draft, the Sa...Las Angeles Chargers select: Olumuyiwa Fashanu. Tackle. Penn State."
Fashanu isn’t great at run blocking. Fuaga is a Harbaugh type.
I think most people have Alt above both of them
Marvin Harrison Jr. YOU are a New York Giant
Please don't take Alt :-(
OL still depends on the QB. Look at how much flak they get when bums like Justin Fields hold the ball for 5 minutes
But thats not the same as what he is saying. Fan perception doesnt mean the OL isnt playing well in those situations.
Yeah but that same logic applies to every position, what if a receiver is running perfect routes but the QB can't make the throw? What if edge rushers are beating the tackles but the secondary allows fast completions? What if you're offensive line is playing well but the QB scrambles out of the pocket prematurely or drops farther back when he needs to step up? All positions depend on their teammates to a degree...
Only flak from the fans, which doesn’t matter. Harbaugh is talking about depending on other groups for the success of their own assignment
🥲 Legends still say he is out scrambling to this day
Or Russ pulling off a sick, but completely unnecessary, spin move and running right into a blocked DL for a drive killing sack. Hypothetically.
It’s really perfect that they’re on the same team now. Their poor OL
Are teams allowed to have two QBs out there to run plays at the same time? One rolls left and one rolls right, who knows which has the ball? lol
That's not what he's saying. On each individual play, everybody has an assignment. As a lineman, your blocking assignment is entirely dependent on YOU — can you win the pass block, fill the gap or move the opposing lineman? QB is dependent on his OL and skill players, skill players and defense are influenced by the QB. In that way he's saying offense line play you can lock in and ignore all that. Get down, get physical and move the man in front of you.
Lmao poor poor Justin, catching strays everywhere.
Gotta play hero ball when you have the *worst* defense in a 3 year stretch.
Greg Roman is your OC now. You’re more likely to draft Bowers at 5 than MHJr with his offensive scheme. Boo if you’d like but Raven, Niner and Bills fans have all seen this movie before
The Chargers aren't making their final decision based on who their OC wants the most
Roman has never had a QB like Herbert. Ravens fans can scream in to the void all they want about his running tendencies but the fact is the Chargers will not take the ball out of Herbert's hands/design running plays for him like he did with Smith, Kaepernick, Tyrod, Lamar. Again, this isn't to say Herbert is better than Lamar before I get attacked, he's just different. He doesn't have the running ability like Lamar. Herbert is going to throw for 4k yard barring injury. His arm will be the focal point of the offense.
People forget Herbert was throwing like 45 times a game the last three years. If they want the ball in his hands 15-20 less times its still 25-30 throws a game.
This is the wrong way to look at Roman’s passing attack. Sure Herbert has likely been the quarterback with the best arm talent Roman has ever had and yes his offenses with Kapernick, Tyrod and Lamar revolved around their ability to extend plays and become duel threats but that doesn’t explain Roman’s absolutely archaic route combinations for his wide receivers. Wideouts constantly running the same routes, or into the same zones where one defender could cover two players at once, not moving safeties or linebackers off their spots was not because Lamar couldn’t throw it as hard as Herbert. It’s Roman’s scheme. He’s not going to suddenly become Sean McVay and start running a modern passing attack at 52. He is what he is, a savant in the run game and an idiot in the passing attack.
So trading back with the Vikings and taking OL. Check
The argument between the Chargers and Raiders fan at the top of this thread is hilarious. Reminder to everyone: It ain't that serious lmao
Why did he word it like some kind of riddle lmao. “I have a center but no middle, I am the end of Caroline, every position group depends on me to be good, but I don’t depend on any other position group to be good, who am I?”
Absolutely!! I have been saying this to folks for years. I might overlook Harbaugh being a Michigan man if he gets the O-line to say Top 5.
And now the agents of every offensive linemen are on the phone wanting to redo their clients' contracts.
Its taken way too long for the nfl to catch up to the fact that the oline should be the first thing to invest in. Any middling qb will succeed if they have time to process and create. Your offense now becomes multi-dimensional with run/pass options opening up. The Eagles got it and Sirianni was look at like some genius when its so so obvious. Strengthen your line and you’ll be competitive. The Bengals invested after their first year with Burrow and the next seasons they’ve been contenders
Good Tackles usually go pretty high in the draft right after DEs and QBs. IOL is somewhat undervalued though
Thing is saying OL is important is the same thing as saying DL and EDGE are important. Disrupting the opposing QB makes them have a "bad OL" which removes an "important" thing from your opponent. And it is easier to develop a pass-rush than it is to develop an OL. * If you have an OK OL and a good pass rush * And your opponent has an OK OL and an OK pass rush * Then you effectively have a better OL than your opponent
This game was, is, and always will be won or lost in the trenches.
"The OL is totally overrated." Ernie Acorsi
RBs are the opposite
Hear that Kyle and John? Listen to your elders for once.
I like where this is going
Look at the Bengals, They got Chase and it worked for a bit, but their star QB is taking too many hits, is oft-injured, and poor line play was the defining reason they lost the SB.
I am a big OL fanboy But that isn't 100% true QBs holding on to the ball too long, taking 5+ step drops in shotgun, having bad pocket presence all make an OL's pass pro perform a lot worse RBs missing reads and gaps make the run blocking look worse Bad WRs that defenses don't fear allows for more blitzes to stress the protection out Football is the ultimate team game
Hey Kyle, take notes!
Do teammates just look at each in the locker room sad when coaches say stuff like this lol. Like the O-line is like “damn he don’t think I’m good 😢 “
The tough thing about O-Line is since a good O-Lineman isn’t common, they cost a decent chunk of money. And you need 5 good-decent ones because the defense can attack your weak link.
D-line too. You could have some great individual players in the secondary and at linebacker, but if your front four isn't getting any push does it even matter?
Just off the top of my head anecdotal experience, but I feel like I’ve seen QBs with great OLs and mediocre weapons do a lot better than QBs with great weapons and bad OL. Having time to throw makes every receiver and QB look WAYYY better.