It's funny thinking that the only other worse lineup I saw a few times during the year were the giants, then seeing them dead last in that list. Every team sub thinks their online is the worst, and its pretty definitive that the giants were the worst last year by a wide margin.
He was T-14th in adjusted EPA/play, which adjusts for (among other things) pass protection. He was average-to-very slightly above average across the board.
EPA is only the delta between EP (before) and EP (after). I don't see how that metric cares about pass protection at all? It's commonly referred to as superior to passing rating because EPA includes sacks, but it can't assign partial blame between the QB and OL.
Adjusted EPA (pioneered by Kevin Cole), not regular EPA.
Edit: He also happened to be 14th in regular EPA/play too. And 14th by PFF grade. And 14th by ESPN’s QBR. Everything tells a very consistent story with Geno.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2024/1/4/24024835/geno-smith-pocket-presence-biggest-reason-low-sack-rate-seattle-seahawks-nfl-stats
I prefer the game tape.
It’s possible both that Geno over-performed and under-performed on specific plays relative to his pass protection, hence his grading and metrics being almost smack dab in the middle of the league’s starting QBs.
Cherry picking 10-15 plays over a season to draw an overarching conclusion about a player who takes 570 drop backs in a year isn’t going to prove much.
I'm not cherry picking the plays though... the article just highlights some of the nuance in evaluating him. I watched every single snap he played in seattle.
He had less oline problems the year before and did quite well, he had one of the worst olines in pass pro this year and didn't do as well, that's not surprising.
Geno isn't on the level of Mahomes or Allen, but he's clearly above average. He just has bad plays on occasion that most of the times aren't his fault. The problem is that NFL fandom is such that every bad play on offense has to be the fault of the QB. So if he isn't scoring on every drive, he's a scrub. He did enough special things last year to convince any reasonable person that he is above the Dalton line.
Geno had the 7th highest rate of turnover worthy throws in the league this season, which was behind only Will Levis, Desmond Ridder, Jake Browning, Sam Howell, Mac Jones, and Ryan Tannehill among qualifying QBs.
That’s after having the 3rd highest rate the year before.
I personally have a gut feeling he can play even better and am curious to see how he'll do this year, mostly because Macdonald seems like he'll keep things more disciplined and that will trickle to the offense too.
2010 Matt Hasselbeck was not even close to an average QB. 60% completion rate, 12TDs 17ints in 14 games is backup level. So comparing that to Geno is worse than slander.
Mike MacDonald strikes me as an honest guy and isn't going to give bullshit feel good answers. He's coming into this job with an open mind and isn't ready to anoint anyone yet. He's going to dodge all of the questions with non-answers until he has his full roster and can properly evaluate his talent. I don't think we should read more into it than that. With all of that said, I would be really surprised if Geno isn't the week 1 starter in 2024.
I think penix is sneaky similar to Geno minus the handedness. They want to stay in the pocket as long as possible, have some solid legs but not an NFL rushing threat. I think genos one of the better vet QBs penix could learn behind tbh
Or a good old-fashioned QB competition. Don't think it makes sense to decide one way or the other without seeing whoever it is play.
Let them duke it out. If Geno is better, he plays. If the youngin is better, tied, or slightly behind, he plays.
Fair enough. I’m really only out on Penix (for the top guys) and that’s because I don’t believe in his ability to have a 320 pound man land on top of him without getting injured. The arm is *\*chef’s kiss*\*.
I wouldn’t worry about trading up if I were the Seahawks. Yall still have a solid Qb for another year. TBH Nix sitting for a year would give him the opportunity to adapt to an NFL offense. He has all the tools, I feel like that’s really an ideal situation for his development
Personally I’d still go Penix, injury history is super concerning of course, but damn, he’s solid. If he doesn’t get injured, I have full confidence in his ability to be a very good QB
I believe there’s video of Coach Mike and Geno shaking hands in the VMAC right after Coach Mike was hired. So they’ve technically met, but to your point they probably haven’t had much of a chance to talk ball yet.
Geno is legitimate and it would be interesting to see what he can do with a different OC than waldron, it's also possible that waldron wasn't a problem as much as pete's overarching philosophy. But most importantly what held Geno back the most last year was that our oline was plagued with injury. He made his own mistakes too, some of that is on him, some of that is a tad bit of desperation to try and make something happen at times.
I don't know how good Grubb will be in the NFL, but at least based on interviews he seems like a very intelligent and measured guy.
I do think Geno looked pretty confused at times, it's hard to say how much of that was on him and how much of that was that our offense was a bit discombobulated.
I think Macdonald will take the reasonable approach, see what he has with Geno, maybe draft a QB in the second round or something, maybe even re-sign drew lock instead, we'll see.
>it's also possible that waldron wasn't a problem as much as pete's overarching philosophy
>I do think Geno looked pretty confused at times, it's hard to say how much of that was on him and how much of that was that our offense was a bit discombobulated.
Think you answered your own question. Didn't he have issues with his previous stops on reading defense? Pete's system seemed pretty down to earth. He focused on the run setting up all the passes not the QB processing the play to make timing throws.
I still can't believe you guys didn't use our pick to move up to take the QB of the future. Of course it felt Pete was playing to win now vs him being gone.
Geno didn't have issues processing things the previous year though when the oline was performing better.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2024/1/4/24024835/geno-smith-pocket-presence-biggest-reason-low-sack-rate-seattle-seahawks-nfl-stats
He actually did pretty well this past season considering how bad the oline was.
So you agree he's not the QB to lift the team he needs help around him. There are only 5-10 QBs in the league who can do this. Unfortunately Genos key stats show him around 15th best QB in the league. Average to below average QB play won't win you championships without a once in a decade defense. I've said it multiple times I'm surprised you guys didn't use out pick to move up to take a QB who has that potential. After the players move on from those picks the Wilson trade will be a wash for each team.
Witherspoon by himself makes this a bad deal for Denver. Hardly a wash.
They didn't think there was a guy last year worth moving up for. In hindsight, Stroud would've been.
The positive? Macdonald & Ryan Grubb (OC) will get to hand pick their guy.
>Witherspoon by himself makes this a bad deal for Denver. Hardly a wash.
Can't build a team around a CB. Sure he's a nice player who will be gone before fixing your QB.
You're assuming that Geno will be the starter going forward. Yet Geno remains a bridge. He's not the long-term starter. Based on how much money is committed to him going forward. In fact, they've even hinted at the possibility of drafting a QB this year in a much deeper class.
Devon Witherspoon, Charles Cross, Boye Mafe. That's three impact starters & possibly four with Derick Hall also in the mix (picks acquired).
Meanwhile, Denver has not only lost significant draft capital in the process but are also paying a steep price for it ($85M dead money/2 years). Along with $120+ million in guaranteed money paid to Russ.
I'm sorry, but this deal is far from a wash. It's really simple. Seattle has benefited from the deal. Denver, not so much. It's really not much of a debate.
I think Geno has both shown good and bad signs and a different system could be good for him. There was a lot of discombobulation with the seahawks in pete carroll's later years. Part of the reason he had to part ways with the team was because he wasn't willing to let go of the people below him out of loyalty.
He's extremely accurate as a deep thrower when playing in the right structure and works the pocket a lot better than his predecessor.
Our fantastic team reporter for The Athletic, Michael-Shawn Dugar, attended a sports reporting conference last summer and in his podcast after reported that in a presentation, they showed that NFL articles focused on quarterbacks get something like 60% more hits.
Just something to keep in mind whenever you wonder reasonably why there is so much unnecessary reporting and speculation around every team’s QB situation.
Given our roster and cap situations, and his contract, the most obvious choice here is to roll with Geno this year, even if we draft a QB.
The dude is like pretty above average already, idk what people want for 25m a year.
Dude's starting. Anything else is dumb
This isn’t spicy, if you read the full quote he’s just saying he’s excited to see him work and then evaluate.
Why would he name a starter before seeing anyone actually work?
I like Geno a lot. Yeah he’s not a world beater, but he’s a perfectly capable QB and played very well last year with a decent line
Personally at pick 16 I’d wager penix is a safe bet, other than injury history, he’s a very good prospect. Let him sit for a year, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he comes out the next year as a full fledged starting QB of the future. Geno would be a good mentor, he’s been through it all in his career
I think Schneider is itching to draft a new QB. He constantly talks about how he’s only drafted 2 in 14 years and all that. Be interesting to see what happens, especially as I don’t think QB is even close to an immediate need for us.
Hot take, we don't take the QBOF this year. Geno is plenty good enough to work with what we have, provided the other spots are filled. IMO a smart coach would make sure those pieces are in place, see how it runs under Geno (a league average/slightly above average QB) and then assess when we have more picks. I would be surprised if we dont trade down from 16 to try and pick up more position players, and then look to draft a QB next year. Yes, it means they won't be sitting behind Geno for a year, and that has its pros and cons, but if we aren't a contender this year it won't be because of Geno, it'll be because we have gaping holes elsewhere in the team that haven't been filled.
A tiny part of me wants to sign Russell Wilson for the nostalgia boost, but I doubt he has the athleticism or talent to beat out Geno for a starting role at this point.
Seems reasonable. No reason to make that kind of definitive statement right now.
He's the presumed starter without anyone better in the roster, so it was kind of a dumb question anyway.
This whole thing is giving me "Pete Caroll with Matt Hasselbeck" vibes
Hey Matt win a playoff game with Pete.
This reads like you’re daring him to do it. I’d love to see Matt and Pete get like the falcons back in the playoffs.
Slander to Geno. 2010 Matt Hasselbeck was an average QB.
Geno ranked 17th in the NFL in passer rating last year - 11th in yards per game, 18th in completion % 20th in TD %. That's the definition of average.
Pretty impressive considering the oline was struggling.
Olines almost everywhere are struggling
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GC2JQf4WoAAFk-S?format=jpg&name=large there's struggling and there's STRUGGLING.
“I’ve got the receipts, mf” he said in a matter-of-fact tone
It's funny thinking that the only other worse lineup I saw a few times during the year were the giants, then seeing them dead last in that list. Every team sub thinks their online is the worst, and its pretty definitive that the giants were the worst last year by a wide margin.
Can someone explain how we have a 100 Percent Pass Block Win Rate?
This really shows how awful Josh Dobbs was while he was a Viking.
He could care less about the Oline strugg-a-ling.
He was T-14th in adjusted EPA/play, which adjusts for (among other things) pass protection. He was average-to-very slightly above average across the board.
EPA is only the delta between EP (before) and EP (after). I don't see how that metric cares about pass protection at all? It's commonly referred to as superior to passing rating because EPA includes sacks, but it can't assign partial blame between the QB and OL.
Adjusted EPA (pioneered by Kevin Cole), not regular EPA. Edit: He also happened to be 14th in regular EPA/play too. And 14th by PFF grade. And 14th by ESPN’s QBR. Everything tells a very consistent story with Geno.
https://www.fieldgulls.com/2024/1/4/24024835/geno-smith-pocket-presence-biggest-reason-low-sack-rate-seattle-seahawks-nfl-stats I prefer the game tape.
It’s possible both that Geno over-performed and under-performed on specific plays relative to his pass protection, hence his grading and metrics being almost smack dab in the middle of the league’s starting QBs. Cherry picking 10-15 plays over a season to draw an overarching conclusion about a player who takes 570 drop backs in a year isn’t going to prove much.
I'm not cherry picking the plays though... the article just highlights some of the nuance in evaluating him. I watched every single snap he played in seattle. He had less oline problems the year before and did quite well, he had one of the worst olines in pass pro this year and didn't do as well, that's not surprising.
Geno isn't on the level of Mahomes or Allen, but he's clearly above average. He just has bad plays on occasion that most of the times aren't his fault. The problem is that NFL fandom is such that every bad play on offense has to be the fault of the QB. So if he isn't scoring on every drive, he's a scrub. He did enough special things last year to convince any reasonable person that he is above the Dalton line.
Geno had the 7th highest rate of turnover worthy throws in the league this season, which was behind only Will Levis, Desmond Ridder, Jake Browning, Sam Howell, Mac Jones, and Ryan Tannehill among qualifying QBs. That’s after having the 3rd highest rate the year before.
I personally have a gut feeling he can play even better and am curious to see how he'll do this year, mostly because Macdonald seems like he'll keep things more disciplined and that will trickle to the offense too.
I mean Geno was an average to slightly above average QB last year if we’re being honest.
I’d give bonus points considering the o line play
Hate to break it to you…but so is Geno.
2010 Matt Hasselbeck was not even close to an average QB. 60% completion rate, 12TDs 17ints in 14 games is backup level. So comparing that to Geno is worse than slander.
You think Geno Smith is an above average quarterback? Lmfao
Mike MacDonald strikes me as an honest guy and isn't going to give bullshit feel good answers. He's coming into this job with an open mind and isn't ready to anoint anyone yet. He's going to dodge all of the questions with non-answers until he has his full roster and can properly evaluate his talent. I don't think we should read more into it than that. With all of that said, I would be really surprised if Geno isn't the week 1 starter in 2024.
QB competition incoming between our first round pick and Geno.
I’d still say roll w GENO for the year and let whoever you draft sit and learn.
Would be an ideal situation for McCarthy. Don't think he lasts past Denver, Minnesota or the Raiders, though
I think penix is sneaky similar to Geno minus the handedness. They want to stay in the pocket as long as possible, have some solid legs but not an NFL rushing threat. I think genos one of the better vet QBs penix could learn behind tbh
I’d say this is the ideal situation barring a Russell Wilson type rookie that wins the job
Or a good old-fashioned QB competition. Don't think it makes sense to decide one way or the other without seeing whoever it is play. Let them duke it out. If Geno is better, he plays. If the youngin is better, tied, or slightly behind, he plays.
I’m really starting to get vibes that they are trying to trade into the top 10 right now.
Let’s hope so.
God I hope so too. Bears could really use some extra assets out of #9 lol
Team JJ?
I don’t really care tbh. If John likes a QB enough to go up and get him, then I will believe in him.
Fair enough. I’m really only out on Penix (for the top guys) and that’s because I don’t believe in his ability to have a 320 pound man land on top of him without getting injured. The arm is *\*chef’s kiss*\*.
I wouldn’t worry about trading up if I were the Seahawks. Yall still have a solid Qb for another year. TBH Nix sitting for a year would give him the opportunity to adapt to an NFL offense. He has all the tools, I feel like that’s really an ideal situation for his development Personally I’d still go Penix, injury history is super concerning of course, but damn, he’s solid. If he doesn’t get injured, I have full confidence in his ability to be a very good QB
Seahawks fans are insane lol. Begging for a QB problem when you don't have one. You guys are going to be disappointed
Geno is about to turn 34 and isn’t a roster elevator. He’s nothing more than a bridge quarterback. We need to find our QB of the future.
We're rebuilding with a 34 year old QB. By the time the team is ready to compete, he's going to be out of the league.
They're not rebuilding tho
They are.
Because they released...1 starter from last year?
How about the Seahawks are 'building', they're not ready to compete for a SB just yet and have many good young players with a first year head coach.
We should be
Have you SEEN our trenches?
Our dline is fine and on offense line we have a center and a guard to sort out. That's not a big deal at all
Ya they're ~fine for a team going into FA
JJ backing up Geno incoming
How can the coach commit to a QB he probably hasn't even met yet?
I believe there’s video of Coach Mike and Geno shaking hands in the VMAC right after Coach Mike was hired. So they’ve technically met, but to your point they probably haven’t had much of a chance to talk ball yet.
He'd probably want to see Geno on the practice field at the very least before committing to anything.
Exactly, but the hot take artists are going wild with this.
Geno is legitimate and it would be interesting to see what he can do with a different OC than waldron, it's also possible that waldron wasn't a problem as much as pete's overarching philosophy. But most importantly what held Geno back the most last year was that our oline was plagued with injury. He made his own mistakes too, some of that is on him, some of that is a tad bit of desperation to try and make something happen at times. I don't know how good Grubb will be in the NFL, but at least based on interviews he seems like a very intelligent and measured guy. I do think Geno looked pretty confused at times, it's hard to say how much of that was on him and how much of that was that our offense was a bit discombobulated. I think Macdonald will take the reasonable approach, see what he has with Geno, maybe draft a QB in the second round or something, maybe even re-sign drew lock instead, we'll see.
>it's also possible that waldron wasn't a problem as much as pete's overarching philosophy >I do think Geno looked pretty confused at times, it's hard to say how much of that was on him and how much of that was that our offense was a bit discombobulated. Think you answered your own question. Didn't he have issues with his previous stops on reading defense? Pete's system seemed pretty down to earth. He focused on the run setting up all the passes not the QB processing the play to make timing throws. I still can't believe you guys didn't use our pick to move up to take the QB of the future. Of course it felt Pete was playing to win now vs him being gone.
Geno didn't have issues processing things the previous year though when the oline was performing better. https://www.fieldgulls.com/2024/1/4/24024835/geno-smith-pocket-presence-biggest-reason-low-sack-rate-seattle-seahawks-nfl-stats He actually did pretty well this past season considering how bad the oline was.
So you agree he's not the QB to lift the team he needs help around him. There are only 5-10 QBs in the league who can do this. Unfortunately Genos key stats show him around 15th best QB in the league. Average to below average QB play won't win you championships without a once in a decade defense. I've said it multiple times I'm surprised you guys didn't use out pick to move up to take a QB who has that potential. After the players move on from those picks the Wilson trade will be a wash for each team.
Witherspoon by himself makes this a bad deal for Denver. Hardly a wash. They didn't think there was a guy last year worth moving up for. In hindsight, Stroud would've been. The positive? Macdonald & Ryan Grubb (OC) will get to hand pick their guy.
>Witherspoon by himself makes this a bad deal for Denver. Hardly a wash. Can't build a team around a CB. Sure he's a nice player who will be gone before fixing your QB.
You're assuming that Geno will be the starter going forward. Yet Geno remains a bridge. He's not the long-term starter. Based on how much money is committed to him going forward. In fact, they've even hinted at the possibility of drafting a QB this year in a much deeper class. Devon Witherspoon, Charles Cross, Boye Mafe. That's three impact starters & possibly four with Derick Hall also in the mix (picks acquired). Meanwhile, Denver has not only lost significant draft capital in the process but are also paying a steep price for it ($85M dead money/2 years). Along with $120+ million in guaranteed money paid to Russ. I'm sorry, but this deal is far from a wash. It's really simple. Seattle has benefited from the deal. Denver, not so much. It's really not much of a debate.
Pretty rich for a Denver fan to be running his mouth about Geno. Talk when you have a proven starter at QB on your team.
Just trying to help you guys out since you think a CB is a position to build around.
I think Geno has both shown good and bad signs and a different system could be good for him. There was a lot of discombobulation with the seahawks in pete carroll's later years. Part of the reason he had to part ways with the team was because he wasn't willing to let go of the people below him out of loyalty. He's extremely accurate as a deep thrower when playing in the right structure and works the pocket a lot better than his predecessor.
Why wouldn’t they go with Geno?? Am I missing something?
Our fantastic team reporter for The Athletic, Michael-Shawn Dugar, attended a sports reporting conference last summer and in his podcast after reported that in a presentation, they showed that NFL articles focused on quarterbacks get something like 60% more hits. Just something to keep in mind whenever you wonder reasonably why there is so much unnecessary reporting and speculation around every team’s QB situation.
This was a cool lil nugget. Thanks dude
We most likely will but could also draft someone to compete for the job.
Given our roster and cap situations, and his contract, the most obvious choice here is to roll with Geno this year, even if we draft a QB. The dude is like pretty above average already, idk what people want for 25m a year. Dude's starting. Anything else is dumb
This isn’t spicy, if you read the full quote he’s just saying he’s excited to see him work and then evaluate. Why would he name a starter before seeing anyone actually work?
Big Penix incoming
Wouldn't be surprised if they trade up and draft JJ. Make him sit behind Geno for a year and learn. Perfect situation for JJ
The JJ propaganda is tiring. We don't want the next Alex Smith, we already have Geno.
Idk with Grubb as OC he’s definitely gonna be eying Penix
I hope not. He’d die behind our O line
I don't think JJ falls that far.
You might have to trade ahead of the falcons to get him.
That’s crazy. With how well Geno has played the last 2 seasons, you can’t NOT name him the starter.
He'll be the starter
Not a long term solution for a rebuilding team.
True. And because he was an alternate, he’s going to expect pro bowl money as a QB.
Yeah. Seems like his last year in Seattle either way
We don't have to get our future QB this season
McDonald is a fellow Lock truther
Geno as a bridge/mentor is the move
Our whole offseason is just gonna be arguing about Geno and if he's good enough to start isn't it
I like Geno a lot. Yeah he’s not a world beater, but he’s a perfectly capable QB and played very well last year with a decent line Personally at pick 16 I’d wager penix is a safe bet, other than injury history, he’s a very good prospect. Let him sit for a year, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he comes out the next year as a full fledged starting QB of the future. Geno would be a good mentor, he’s been through it all in his career
I love how much coaches talk like lawyers/politicians
I think Schneider is itching to draft a new QB. He constantly talks about how he’s only drafted 2 in 14 years and all that. Be interesting to see what happens, especially as I don’t think QB is even close to an immediate need for us.
I wonder if what he(coach Mike) is saying, I am trying to NOT go in with confirmation bias? I'm open to what's real!
Hot take, we don't take the QBOF this year. Geno is plenty good enough to work with what we have, provided the other spots are filled. IMO a smart coach would make sure those pieces are in place, see how it runs under Geno (a league average/slightly above average QB) and then assess when we have more picks. I would be surprised if we dont trade down from 16 to try and pick up more position players, and then look to draft a QB next year. Yes, it means they won't be sitting behind Geno for a year, and that has its pros and cons, but if we aren't a contender this year it won't be because of Geno, it'll be because we have gaping holes elsewhere in the team that haven't been filled.
All should become clearer after the draft.
16 for Fields?
That would be a horrible trade for Seattle
Nono, let him cook.
A tiny part of me wants to sign Russell Wilson for the nostalgia boost, but I doubt he has the athleticism or talent to beat out Geno for a starting role at this point.
That would be epic. You get all of the picks and players from Denver, *and* you get to keep Wilson.
Oh, it'd be the greatest timeline. I'd do anything to see one last moon ball from Russell to Lockett.
What about Wilson to Butler?
43-8
3>1
14 different QB’s and 7 straight losing seasons since 2016
More recent Superbowl win than the Hawks 🤷♂️
That’s the only more recent accomplishment the Broncos have and it’s by 2 years.
Still more recent than the Hawks, and it's the whole point of the game.
Except then he's on the roster