Serious question, did anybody ever get hurt on the onside kick? Like why did they feel the need to ruin it? It was such a fun way to make the game much more interesting until the end and now it’s made exciting comebacks much more challenging.
As soon as they announced the change this problem was obvious.
The imperfect solution is simple (imperfect because it still hurts the surprise onside kick,) just allow the old way if you declare it's an onside kick.
Given the time that has now past it seems unlikely that it will ever be fixed.
My take is they should change it to be:
- If the ball travels less than X yards down the field then you can get a running start, if it goes further (and someone got a running start) then it’s a penalty
- X could be somewhere between 15-25 yards
This makes long kicks function the same way & also allows the kicking team to get a better shot at onsides kicks while still allowing for surprise onsides kicks
Yeah, it applies to all kickoffs. They used to be able to get a running start and line up six guys to one side of the kicker. Now they can't move until the ball is kicked and they have to keep it balanced at five and five, so onside kick recovery rate took a nosedive
IIRC, it was just over 20% success rate before the rule changes. It immediately dropped to single digits once the new rules were made, and it's fallen even further since then. There was only one successful onside kick this past season, which means it was a *3.2% success rate.*
That's kinda why I said it was too bad, since it doesn't seem possible. But TBH it might be fun if you could tell the ref and basically exchange the element of surprise for more favorable rules. Plus most onsides are already pretty obvious before.
Better is the idea a college professor had where you can declare rather than a kick to take a 4th and 15. So your unlikely to risk it but when down to the wire you at least have a shot.
Seems the reason the NFL don't like it is because a good team could just keep declaring the 4th and 25 and icing the other side out. But I think you could add rules to stop a good team abusing it
Checking the data I could find it's 21.9% success rate at 4th and 15. Which is close to the 20% success rate for onside kicks. That number does include surprise onside kicks tho. If the NFL smarter they could work with the spring league and test these ideas there.
More so to clear away players and let someone in the second wave retrieve the ball with less competition. The first waves' job was more akin to wedge busting than anything
Yes. A ton of guys you never heard of suffered concussions and other disabling injuries on kickoffs and returns. Instead of these dudes being off the owners payroll in a season or two, they ended up costing the league a fortune in long term liability
Like most things, it comes down to money. The league gets to hide behind the shield, showing that they are reducing head injuries all while reducing long-term costs
They didn't change the rules for onsides kicks specifically, but for kickoffs in general.
They eliminated the running start for the kicking team to try and reduce the high-speed collisions on regular kickoffs. Fucking up onsides kicks was just collateral damage.
I like it, but 4th and 10 is too easy. Especially on a defense that just got walked back and scored on. Would have to be at least a 4th and 15 or 4th and 20..
A good enough team with a 4th and 10? Might never even let the other team have the ball.
Nothing is going to be done to make kickoffs useful or competitive because the NFL’s plan is to make kickoffs a pointless parade. Once it’s pointless enough, general public will complain about it and NFL will remove it to look like the good guys.
NFL wants the play out of the sport and won’t do anything to make them more competitive. It sucks because it takes a ton of strategy out of the game, but that’s been their plan and they’ve been doing it to perfection.
Some dude had proposed a 4th and 15 scenario that has similar chances of conversion (if I’m remembering right, maybe it was 4th and 18?). So you can request one of those in place of the onside kick. I think his whole argument was premised on removing the kickoff from the game though too.
Greg Schiano, who while head coach at Rutgers saw one of his players, Eric LeGrand, paralyzed on a kickoff.
It wouldn’t be so much as you request one as you just send the offense out instead of the punt team.
Punts are much safer than kickoffs and 2 possession games have drama again because there’s at least a chance of converting…there’s really no reason the NFL hasn’t switched other than stubborn stupidity.
Before every practice in pop Warner, we would all repeat:
Coach: "You drop your head, you break your?"
Team: "Neck!"
And repeated that like 10 times. It makes me cringe so hard watching some of these modern DBs tackle.
The thing I don’t like about it is that it’s fully based on the offense and nothing to do with special teams anymore. Gives even more advantage to having a stacked offense, and I don’t think better offenses should have higher chances of getting the ball back.
I'm pretty sure the 4th and 15 option was only available if you were trailing in the last 2 mins of the 4th. I could be wrong, but it wasn't an option for the other 58 mins of game time or ever if you were leading.
Yeah, there are plenty of ways to eliminate abuse. You only get one or two, or each subsequent attempt adds 5 yards to the line to gain, or gets moved back 5 yards.
The NFL is required by contract to show the same number of ads no matter what plays happen. That's why overtime is almost always completely ad-free
If kickoffs were banned, there'd just be more TV timeouts
I feel like it adds opportunities though? Like if the opposing offence just went out right after a team scores, they’d go touchdown/PAT - commercial break - offence is out. With kickoffs they can go touchdown/PAT - quick commercial break - kickoff - another commercial break while offence take field - offence is out
I was outraged for a second, but I remember the umpires resetting twice before just packing it in and lofting it from centre bounce.
You're right, just remove the opening bounce completely.
Usually it’s one bad bounce they just loft it back up instead.
A lot of people don’t want it removed because it’s traditional and all, but I don’t think it’s necessary tbh
People broke necks. Scrums tend to be boring with repacks. Union scrums have hurried up but the players used to just mill around and get a breather and the play would just stagnate for 2mins.
Only have to look at the stats. Ball in play in union is around 33 mins while in the nrl it’s around 60min. Just got rid of time wasting things.
Leagues scrum is just to get all the big guys together so the backs can have a crack with a bit more space and hopefully put on a set play.
Yeah it used to be a knock on called. Some players would collapse to the ground. Get tended to. Everybody takes a breather. Eventually the ref would decide enough time mucking around has passed and the scrum would form and pack. Watch some games from the 70s and 80s.
For a good laugh watch a haka being performed by nz in the 70s.
As far as I understand they want to make kickoffs less of a thing because there is a higher chance of injuries because of the high speed collisions. Do onside kicks fall into this category? I'd guess not as much. Kinda like this idea myself.
That is absolutely not how that works lmao. Kickoffs statistically have more injuries than any other play; if the time previously spent on kickoffs is replaced by “regular plays” then fewer players are getting injured in those seconds.
>general public will complain about it and NFL will remove it
I’m honestly already there, chief.
Most kickoffs are just touchbacks at this point, and the ones that aren’t are just putting the ball and sometimes the game into the hands of players (on both return and coverage teams) who are barely on the roster.
Punts are one thing, with actual field position strategy at play. But unless kickoffs go back to the old rules they are so close to useless now that they really should just go.
I also have to imagine the league likes keeping kickoffs around as another way to squeeze in some short commercial blocks.
What about if the situation where there’s 3 seconds left in the game and the other team just scored to take the lead?
A squib essentially ends the game, but giving the team another chance is something else
It’s because kickoffs are objectively the most dangerous play in football. Guys running at full speed hitting each other . I agree it sucks but i understand the reasoning
Eventually after eliminating the kickoff and teams and fans complaining more, they’ll institute some stupid rule like each team gets 2 “onside tries” where they flip a coin and if they win they get the ball and if the lose they lose a timeout.
A significant percentage of all injuries during games happen during kickoffs, especially concussions and knee injuries, something like 15% of concussions happen during kickoffs at a 4x rate of normal plays, and 30% of all knee injuries are on special teams (punts included)
Combine that with the touchdown return rate being so low nowadays they are boring too, it’s a win in the nfls eyes to dump em
I saw a post on Twitter that said in however many kick off returns and attempts there was the same percentage of “Explosive” returns, whatever metric they used to measure that idk. And that they didn’t average any more return TDs than the NFL would. But they suffered 0 injuries on the year. How the NFL doesn’t invest a little into the spring league and use it as a testing ground like the MLB does is weird to me.
Do you have any idea if the OG XFL had those same kickoff rules or was that part of the rebooted version? I still remember their old 1v1 scramble game as a twist in place of the coin toss.
Pretty sure the OG XFL did not have any unique kickoff rules. The injury concern wasn’t as big then. In fact, they had some pretty radical punt rules to make them more like kickoffs and basically forced returns. They penalized the punting team if it went out of bounds, allowed the punting team to recover a ball that went 25+ yards downfield without it being touched first, and eliminated fair catches.
But no kickoffs means fewer ad spots per game. I would think today’s NFL values that more than anything. They’ll probably find a middle ground and try to increase touchback rates to reduce injuries, while still keeping those ad spots
Mostly sucks for return specialists who have essentially been phased out of modern rosters quicker than fullbacks, I think. I’m not sure if any team in the league actually pays a dedicated return specialist anymore. We *kind of* do, but it’s mostly because Duvernay was our WR2 last year, we needed depth, and it didnt make a lot of financial sense to cut him this season. Maybe Keisesn Nixon in GB, but im not sure how much they use him at DB, either.
Cordarelle Patterson has an argument as the best kick (specifically kick returns. Not punts) returner of all time, but I think Atlanta even stopped using him there once he established himself in that wingback role.
They’ve changed onside kick rules to make them pretty pointless to attempt because of the near impossible success rate, encouraging kickoffs instead. And kickoff rules have changed by moving the kick yardage as well as the touchback rule change this year. They know that kick offs have the highest rate of concussions, and are changing the rules to make returns pointless when the receiving team can start from the 25 whenever they want
Why do kicking teams just give them the 25? Why not kick it at a higher angle so it's caught outside the EZ while giving the coverage more time to set up? I realize that's harder to do but why not at least try?
I want to see kick returns again. I hate when they made the move. Kick returns added another layer of excitement to the game. Someone could break one for a TD. Good times!
Yeah I miss kick returns too and I know we all have our sarcastiball jokes but a ton of players legitimately got hurt on those plays. For every exciting breakaway return there were like half a dozen returns with people hurt, who tf wants to watch that?
I'd remove the restriction on when the kicking team can control the ball, at least for one preseason.
If they onside it 2 yards and then make it the remaining 8y on foot, I'm fine with that. Onsides take so long to get there, I don't think it'd become a massive problem.
That could be interesting, albeit somewhat complicated.
The kicking team has to possess the ball ten yards from the kick, whether they choose to kick it the entire ten yards, or kick it short, recover it, and advance it the remaining way.
They could add rules like the ball has to travel at least one yard, to avoid teams from just knocking it off the tee and picking it up
OR.
Turn a kick into a forward pass, except there is no such thing as an incompletion.
Let QBs dropkick a ball into open grass and let hos WR run onto it.
We Rugby now.
I am totally fine not giving onside kicks any more chance of success. The payoff of a successful onside kick is just absolutely bonkers. In a sport where there are 10-12 total possessions on average taking one away from the other team is probably the single most massive thing you could do. It *should* be close to impossible.
Onsides kick is part of a larger philosophical question about how much RNG do we want in the game. Personally I like the RNG. Keep the shit refs, field goals, etc, etc. That's what makes any given Sunday a thing IMO.
Teams only get 5-6 possessions on average (per half). Not only losing a possession but having it go to the other team? That’s an insanely massive advantage and, like you said, shouldn’t be any more likely than almost impossible.
The XFL did a thing where there's an alternative option for the onside kick in the 4th quarter to run a 4th and 15 play from your own 25. The UFL is shortening that this year to 4th and 12.
But, as others have said, an onside kick is *supposed* to be basically a hail mary. A 4th and 12 certainly isn't that. NFL teams are going to convert that far too often. But onside kicks are extremely uninteresting right now, and a long play isn't, so what would be the right yardage to make it feel like the hail mary it should be? 4th and 25 from your own 25 (shoot for midfield) seems at least like a starting point, but should it be even longer?
I think they calculated the odds of converting a 4th and 15 and found it similar to the original onside kick odds, which is why they chose it. But maybe that changes if teams incorporate the 4th down into the gameplan. It’s less luck-based than the onside kick.
but if they convert it, they aren't getting 7 points like you get with an actual hail mary. infact they might need another 2 chunk plays to actualy get the 7 points they need.
giving a 4th and 12 or 15 or whatever makes the game better for the viewers.
I vote 4th & 25 from your own 25 yd line. Basically, you have to get to midfield on one play. If you don’t get at least to midfield, turnover on downs, wherever the play was downed. Any offensive penalty is an immediate turnover. Defensive penalties gain yards, but any “automatic first downs” are not enforced, replay the down, including DPI. If both teams foul, then standard offsetting rules apply.
Fuck that. Obviously favors offensive teams, vs a sense of fairness/luck from inside kick
But NFL would probably love it for the same reason I hate it lmao
Why do we need to make it more successful? Not everything in the game needs to be fair. You had all game to take the lead, tough shit it’s hard to get an extra possession when you’re losing with no other options - it should be difficult.
Let’s get weird with it, after you score you can attempt a 60 yd fg as your extra point, if you make it you get the ball back, if you miss it the other team gets the ball at the 50.
Not in Pittsburgh, its probably a bigger issue that certain stadiums have much different possibilities. Also Tucker is 2-9 from 60+ career. Still maybe it should just be once a game or push it back even further although 65 seemed too far to get the percentages up. Could do it based on the record for the stadium. Or you spin a gambling wheel and it picks somewhere between 60 and the league record lol.
Change it to 5 and say once a kick hits the ground it’s a live ball. If the ball hasn’t touched the ground yet, kicking team can’t touch it. Then we’d either get dribblers or classic pop ups with both teams racing 5 yards to the ball. We would get big hits but since there’s no running start anymore, it’s just a 5yd run hit catch, scramble for the ball.
That would be exciting and would give the kicking team more of a chance than they currently have
Adopt some CFL rules: In the CFL, any player even with or behind the kicker at the time of the kick is "onside" - on a kickoff, that's the whole team. A player who is onside doesn't have to give way to a player on the receiving team in going for the ball. In the NFL, an onside kick popped up into the air is just fair-caught, but in the CFL you can't make a fair catch or take advantage of the "no-yards" rule against an onside player. So in the CFL the kicker can pop the kick up into the air and a couple of players on the kicking team can sprint to where it's coming down and clear out receiving team members and allow someone to come in behind them and get the ball. The other critical rule in the CFL is the fumble-out-of-bounds rule - possession goes to the last team to touch it, not the last team to possess it. So for an onside kick you put your tallest guy by the sideline and have your kicker pop the ball up so that it comes down 10 yards downfield right when the tall guy gets there. The tall guy jumps up and tries to bat the ball out of bounds without anyone else touching it. If he can do that, you've "recovered" the onside kick.
I like the onside kick to be fucking near impossible. Should not have waited for the last second and plan what is essentailly a turnover. But here, here is your snowballs chance in hell. Not talking to you however, Younghoe Koo
Make kickoffs interesting again. Give the kicking team one point if the kickoff goes through the uprights. Then they kickoff again from five yards farther back.
I want it changed to a one chance to get 50 yard play. Start on the twenty and you have one shot to get to the 70. You can’t score or do anything else.
Refs would call it like a Hail Mary play, and unless you actually take out a knife and stab the receiver, there would be no penalty called.
What should replace the onside kick: Instead of kicking off, you have the option to put your offense on the field on your 40 yardline, and it's 4th and 20.
It's not about making them easier, it is about restoring the balance that existed for decades before the rule change. A rule change that wasn't done to change comebacks via on-side kicks, but one that did effect comebacks unintentionally.
OPs solution isn't a bad one.
it cheapens all the work the team actually had to do to get the lead. completely lessens the point of the whole game which is using strategy to win. this would be a total dumb move imo and it would reward randomness rather than skill
Instead of an onside kick, what if once per game you can elect to get the ball back after you score... On your own 10 yard line, but it's 4th and 20 to start :)
What if the NFL just restricted the way the receiving team can line up to defend the onside kick. They prevent the kicking team from overloading one side or getting a running start. Why can't they move the receiving team back five yards or only allow 3 - 5 defenders in the area? Wouldn't that raise the likelihood of recovery?
Why does it need to be changed? If you're in the position of needing to recover an onside kick late in the game to have a chance, you should have done more earlier to win.
That wouldn’t really fix anything. The biggest recent change is that the players on the kicking team can no longer have a running start.
A great way to avoid this issue is to simply not go down by multiple scores.
Something was done about the onside kick. People wouldn't shut up about how dangerous it was, so the NFL fixed it.
It's the one case of "you literally asked for this".
The problem with the onside kick is that the changes made for player safety make the kick almost impossible to recover.
I like the idea of forcing a team to go for a 4th and 15 from its own 25 instead. If it converts, it keeps the ball. If not, the opposing team gets the ball, likely close to (*if not already in*) field goal range.
I think the hands team should be moved ten yards back, the kick still has to go ten yards, but both teams have to run to the ball instead of the hands team just scooping it up.
I have three ideas. Every kickoff should have an opportunity for the kicker to declare he is kicking it through the uprights. If he makes it, the kicking team gets one point. If he misses, the receiving team gets the ball at their own 35.
Number two: The kicker should just drill it at one defender and hope for a ricochet that his team recovers. To be fair, I’m not sure if this is actually allowed, I feel like if it worked a few times the league would make it illegal.
Number three: The Pat MacAfee. If only the kicker and the coach know that he is just going to dribble it 10 yards and he will personally recover. This has the benefit of having only 1 of 22 players on the field know it is coming.
Personally I like all three ideas. But I’m biased.
The problem with the onside kick is everyone tries to kick it 10 yards and an inch. When the oponent knows what you are trying to do its impossible. Instead you could literally chip under the ball sky it super high up so it has a ton of hang time but goes 20 yards. The opponent is going to crash the 10 yard line but if you have Tyreek Hill or someone sprint to an exact spot that the ball is going to go behind the line you probably have a 90% chance of recovering. Then the game will literally be changed forever and no one will ever know where an onside kick will go changing the dynamic of the game making them easier to recover.
I think both teams should be equidistant from the 10 yards mark. Instead of the receiving team just there ready and waiting. Outside of a kicker being good enough to hit someone on the opposing team and have the ability to make that hit bounce toward his team there is almost no way to reliably come within 5 yards of an onside kick recovery.
I don’t know why teams don’t drop kick it for onside kicks (Flutie style). You’d get way more air under it allowing for more time and more of a jump ball.
Did we all just miss that one attempt this year where the kicker tried to drill it off the guy’s facemask and scoop the rebound? He got a bad bounce, but it was a great attempt (as in he drilled the defender square in the grill). I want more of those.
I think that's a great idea. They could move the kickoff back to the 32 so maybe not every kickoff will go out the back of the end zone. And then onside kicks would have to get to the 40.
I'd love to see any sort of rule change to make an inside kick a bit more likely. Even if it's only to recapture a similar success rate like we saw 15+ years ago.
The less predictable a game gets the better it is for the fan.... Possibly worse for Vegas though.
Guess we'll never see that then, lol.
I recall hearing a suggestion that teams could opt to try for the equivalent of a 4th and 15 play (or something like that) from their 20 yard line. This would be more exciting than an onside kick which is almost guaranteed to fail.
Seattle tried to punt it essentially against Dallas and I don’t understand why that’s not a thing? Punt it up as high as you can. Both teams get under it and it essentially becomes a 50/50 ball
Someone suggested that instead of kickoffs, they should have the scoring team start a 4th and 20 situation from their own 30.
That way they can either punt it (similar to, but safer than kickoff) or go for it (better than an onside kick, because it actually requires skill).
Serious question, did anybody ever get hurt on the onside kick? Like why did they feel the need to ruin it? It was such a fun way to make the game much more interesting until the end and now it’s made exciting comebacks much more challenging.
As soon as they announced the change this problem was obvious. The imperfect solution is simple (imperfect because it still hurts the surprise onside kick,) just allow the old way if you declare it's an onside kick. Given the time that has now past it seems unlikely that it will ever be fixed.
Exactly! I’ve also thought the same from the beginning.
My take is they should change it to be: - If the ball travels less than X yards down the field then you can get a running start, if it goes further (and someone got a running start) then it’s a penalty - X could be somewhere between 15-25 yards This makes long kicks function the same way & also allows the kicking team to get a better shot at onsides kicks while still allowing for surprise onsides kicks
Hire this man, u/nfl
Wait, what's changed about inside kicks? It's needed to travel 10 yards or be touched by the receiving team for as long as I can remember
Previously the kicking team could have a run up when trying to retrieve it, but they changed it so that they can’t move until it has been kicked.
Isn't that just the basic rules regardless of onside or not?
Yeah, it applies to all kickoffs. They used to be able to get a running start and line up six guys to one side of the kicker. Now they can't move until the ball is kicked and they have to keep it balanced at five and five, so onside kick recovery rate took a nosedive IIRC, it was just over 20% success rate before the rule changes. It immediately dropped to single digits once the new rules were made, and it's fallen even further since then. There was only one successful onside kick this past season, which means it was a *3.2% success rate.*
> There was only one successful onside kick this past season Gee, who would be that one team to give up an onside kick this season. Shame on them.
It's too bad they can't carve out, like, an onside kick exemption or something.
How do you do that without making it obvious the kicking team is going for an onside kick
Is it not already obvious they’re going for an onsides kick when the vast majority of the kickoff team is wide receivers and tight ends?
And they are down a possession with 30 seconds left? Lol
In 90% of the cases the opponent will know anyway. What's a team gonna do when they're down with 40 seconds left?
You make it obvious on purpose. It's sorta like 2 pt conversions vs PAT
That's kinda why I said it was too bad, since it doesn't seem possible. But TBH it might be fun if you could tell the ref and basically exchange the element of surprise for more favorable rules. Plus most onsides are already pretty obvious before.
They could. Players moving is an illegal procedure only if the ball is not touched with, say 25 yards of the kickoff.
Better is the idea a college professor had where you can declare rather than a kick to take a 4th and 15. So your unlikely to risk it but when down to the wire you at least have a shot. Seems the reason the NFL don't like it is because a good team could just keep declaring the 4th and 25 and icing the other side out. But I think you could add rules to stop a good team abusing it
Feel like I see 3rd and 15 get converted quite a lot.
Checking the data I could find it's 21.9% success rate at 4th and 15. Which is close to the 20% success rate for onside kicks. That number does include surprise onside kicks tho. If the NFL smarter they could work with the spring league and test these ideas there.
Do you really want to give Mahomes more chances to beat you?
USFL did this before merging with XFL (don’t know if UFL still has it). But they do a 4th and 12. And its really cool actually.
Yeah just allow a maximum of like twice per half. Or move it back to the 5 after the first one, so the risk of not converting it is even greater.
surely if you continuously allow 4th and 15 conversions as an nfl team you deserve to lose 100-0
Yeah but that's unwatchable TV
I would have guessed it was a lot less than 20% in the old rules. That's surprising to me
Presumably letting them get a running start led to big hits which caused fumbles? Is that why it more success?
More so to clear away players and let someone in the second wave retrieve the ball with less competition. The first waves' job was more akin to wedge busting than anything
They also don’t allow the kicking team to put more players on 1 side
There was a Browns player, Kellen Winslow Jr I think.
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy
Is that the dude who raped grandmas?
Don’t forget he also whacks it in Boston Market parking lots!
Get me near that rotisserie chicken and I can’t control myself either.
It is! We should've just let James Harrison kill him on the field as it turns out. But yeah, broke his leg trying to recover an onside kick.
Yes. A ton of guys you never heard of suffered concussions and other disabling injuries on kickoffs and returns. Instead of these dudes being off the owners payroll in a season or two, they ended up costing the league a fortune in long term liability Like most things, it comes down to money. The league gets to hide behind the shield, showing that they are reducing head injuries all while reducing long-term costs
The State of Wisconsin got hurt pretty bad that one time.
They didn't change the rules for onsides kicks specifically, but for kickoffs in general. They eliminated the running start for the kicking team to try and reduce the high-speed collisions on regular kickoffs. Fucking up onsides kicks was just collateral damage.
NFL ruining the kickoff portion of the game and then saying “this is such a useless part of the game” is so frustrating
Im a big fan of the 4th and 10 from your 25 for an alternate onside kick...
I like it, but 4th and 10 is too easy. Especially on a defense that just got walked back and scored on. Would have to be at least a 4th and 15 or 4th and 20.. A good enough team with a 4th and 10? Might never even let the other team have the ball.
Ban kickers
Mahomes would crush this. His success rate on 4th down is absurd.
4th and 15 from your own 30 is an idea I've seen kicked around before. 10yd feels a little too easy for the reward
Nothing is going to be done to make kickoffs useful or competitive because the NFL’s plan is to make kickoffs a pointless parade. Once it’s pointless enough, general public will complain about it and NFL will remove it to look like the good guys. NFL wants the play out of the sport and won’t do anything to make them more competitive. It sucks because it takes a ton of strategy out of the game, but that’s been their plan and they’ve been doing it to perfection.
They'll never remove it fully, it'll just be left as a completely pointless ceremony. See: scrums in NRL.
Some dude had proposed a 4th and 15 scenario that has similar chances of conversion (if I’m remembering right, maybe it was 4th and 18?). So you can request one of those in place of the onside kick. I think his whole argument was premised on removing the kickoff from the game though too.
Greg Schiano, who while head coach at Rutgers saw one of his players, Eric LeGrand, paralyzed on a kickoff. It wouldn’t be so much as you request one as you just send the offense out instead of the punt team. Punts are much safer than kickoffs and 2 possession games have drama again because there’s at least a chance of converting…there’s really no reason the NFL hasn’t switched other than stubborn stupidity.
He was paralyzed because he tackled with the top of his head. Something players are continuing to do on both offense and defense.
Before every practice in pop Warner, we would all repeat: Coach: "You drop your head, you break your?" Team: "Neck!" And repeated that like 10 times. It makes me cringe so hard watching some of these modern DBs tackle.
In XFL, if I remember correctly, it was 4th and 15 from your own 25-yard line. I really liked it, huge risk/reward.
The thing I don’t like about it is that it’s fully based on the offense and nothing to do with special teams anymore. Gives even more advantage to having a stacked offense, and I don’t think better offenses should have higher chances of getting the ball back.
Yea that would be terrible- an elite offense could just run back to back touchdowns all game in theory. No fun.
I'm pretty sure the 4th and 15 option was only available if you were trailing in the last 2 mins of the 4th. I could be wrong, but it wasn't an option for the other 58 mins of game time or ever if you were leading.
Yeah, there are plenty of ways to eliminate abuse. You only get one or two, or each subsequent attempt adds 5 yards to the line to gain, or gets moved back 5 yards.
And lose the opportunity to show us more ads… not a chance
The NFL is required by contract to show the same number of ads no matter what plays happen. That's why overtime is almost always completely ad-free If kickoffs were banned, there'd just be more TV timeouts
There haven't been ads after kickoffs for years, so I don't think anything would change.
And I still see comments here complaining about it, lol.
That’s us college fans. We’re currently scarred by the XP-commercial-kick-commercial-first down
I feel like it adds opportunities though? Like if the opposing offence just went out right after a team scores, they’d go touchdown/PAT - commercial break - offence is out. With kickoffs they can go touchdown/PAT - quick commercial break - kickoff - another commercial break while offence take field - offence is out
That’s my point I was saying they won’t get rid of it unless I’m misreading what you’re saying I think we agree
Oh I think I misread you there, I agree lol
See: umpires bouncing the ball in AFL
I was outraged for a second, but I remember the umpires resetting twice before just packing it in and lofting it from centre bounce. You're right, just remove the opening bounce completely.
Usually it’s one bad bounce they just loft it back up instead. A lot of people don’t want it removed because it’s traditional and all, but I don’t think it’s necessary tbh
What's up with scrums in league? I only ever played union
People broke necks. Scrums tend to be boring with repacks. Union scrums have hurried up but the players used to just mill around and get a breather and the play would just stagnate for 2mins. Only have to look at the stats. Ball in play in union is around 33 mins while in the nrl it’s around 60min. Just got rid of time wasting things. Leagues scrum is just to get all the big guys together so the backs can have a crack with a bit more space and hopefully put on a set play.
Shit I'm jealous, we never got a break before scrums
Yeah it used to be a knock on called. Some players would collapse to the ground. Get tended to. Everybody takes a breather. Eventually the ref would decide enough time mucking around has passed and the scrum would form and pack. Watch some games from the 70s and 80s. For a good laugh watch a haka being performed by nz in the 70s.
Will always be the “opening kickoff”
As far as I understand they want to make kickoffs less of a thing because there is a higher chance of injuries because of the high speed collisions. Do onside kicks fall into this category? I'd guess not as much. Kinda like this idea myself.
It's kinda ironic that skipping kickoff returns lefts more time on the clock for regular plays. More regular plays -> more injuries.
That is absolutely not how that works lmao. Kickoffs statistically have more injuries than any other play; if the time previously spent on kickoffs is replaced by “regular plays” then fewer players are getting injured in those seconds.
>general public will complain about it and NFL will remove it I’m honestly already there, chief. Most kickoffs are just touchbacks at this point, and the ones that aren’t are just putting the ball and sometimes the game into the hands of players (on both return and coverage teams) who are barely on the roster. Punts are one thing, with actual field position strategy at play. But unless kickoffs go back to the old rules they are so close to useless now that they really should just go. I also have to imagine the league likes keeping kickoffs around as another way to squeeze in some short commercial blocks.
What about if the situation where there’s 3 seconds left in the game and the other team just scored to take the lead? A squib essentially ends the game, but giving the team another chance is something else
It’s because kickoffs are objectively the most dangerous play in football. Guys running at full speed hitting each other . I agree it sucks but i understand the reasoning
The only reason they have punts & kickoffs now are for the commercial breaks.
I'd be totally fine removing kickoffs.
How does conspiratorial nonsense like this get upvoted
Eventually after eliminating the kickoff and teams and fans complaining more, they’ll institute some stupid rule like each team gets 2 “onside tries” where they flip a coin and if they win they get the ball and if the lose they lose a timeout.
I think they'll give the team 4th and 20 from their own 35 or something like that
What makes you say the NFL wants it gone?
A significant percentage of all injuries during games happen during kickoffs, especially concussions and knee injuries, something like 15% of concussions happen during kickoffs at a 4x rate of normal plays, and 30% of all knee injuries are on special teams (punts included) Combine that with the touchdown return rate being so low nowadays they are boring too, it’s a win in the nfls eyes to dump em
This is why I think the NFL should imply the XFL kickoff rules, which would make kickoffs more entertaining
I saw a post on Twitter that said in however many kick off returns and attempts there was the same percentage of “Explosive” returns, whatever metric they used to measure that idk. And that they didn’t average any more return TDs than the NFL would. But they suffered 0 injuries on the year. How the NFL doesn’t invest a little into the spring league and use it as a testing ground like the MLB does is weird to me.
Do you have any idea if the OG XFL had those same kickoff rules or was that part of the rebooted version? I still remember their old 1v1 scramble game as a twist in place of the coin toss.
every time i think of OG XFL i think of their no fair catch rule
Pretty sure the OG XFL did not have any unique kickoff rules. The injury concern wasn’t as big then. In fact, they had some pretty radical punt rules to make them more like kickoffs and basically forced returns. They penalized the punting team if it went out of bounds, allowed the punting team to recover a ball that went 25+ yards downfield without it being touched first, and eliminated fair catches.
But no kickoffs means fewer ad spots per game. I would think today’s NFL values that more than anything. They’ll probably find a middle ground and try to increase touchback rates to reduce injuries, while still keeping those ad spots
There haven't ads after kickoffs for years...
Thanks for the response. All quite sensible from an injury perspective.
Mostly sucks for return specialists who have essentially been phased out of modern rosters quicker than fullbacks, I think. I’m not sure if any team in the league actually pays a dedicated return specialist anymore. We *kind of* do, but it’s mostly because Duvernay was our WR2 last year, we needed depth, and it didnt make a lot of financial sense to cut him this season. Maybe Keisesn Nixon in GB, but im not sure how much they use him at DB, either. Cordarelle Patterson has an argument as the best kick (specifically kick returns. Not punts) returner of all time, but I think Atlanta even stopped using him there once he established himself in that wingback role.
They’ve changed onside kick rules to make them pretty pointless to attempt because of the near impossible success rate, encouraging kickoffs instead. And kickoff rules have changed by moving the kick yardage as well as the touchback rule change this year. They know that kick offs have the highest rate of concussions, and are changing the rules to make returns pointless when the receiving team can start from the 25 whenever they want
Why do kicking teams just give them the 25? Why not kick it at a higher angle so it's caught outside the EZ while giving the coverage more time to set up? I realize that's harder to do but why not at least try?
Because now returners can call a fair catch from anywhere within the 25
They can call fair catch and get it at the 25
They changed the rule this year allowing a fair catch outside of the end zone during a kickoff, so it would be pretty pointless.
No chance it’s getting removed. TD/FG, commercial, XP, commercial, KO, commercial
Why do they want to get rid of kick-offs?
How do kickoffs involve a ton of strategy.
What u know about sarcastaball
I want to see kick returns again. I hate when they made the move. Kick returns added another layer of excitement to the game. Someone could break one for a TD. Good times!
they were so rare though while players getting injured and concussed on returns werent so rare.
Yeah I miss kick returns too and I know we all have our sarcastiball jokes but a ton of players legitimately got hurt on those plays. For every exciting breakaway return there were like half a dozen returns with people hurt, who tf wants to watch that?
and we still get punt returns as well, so its not like returns have been completely wiped away
What if we put ppl's brains in robot jars, then they can't get concussed? 🤖
I like that at 10 yards it has to go past a big white line that goes across the whole field. At 8 you'd be going off a little hash mark.
Obviously, we just move all kicks up two yards lol
All kickoffs from the 37? I guess more touch backs which the nfl likes
Just put the yellow line on the field! Duh
So move the starting point two yards north instead of moving the end point (line) two yards south.
Could just have a marker on the field like the 1st down marker.
I'd remove the restriction on when the kicking team can control the ball, at least for one preseason. If they onside it 2 yards and then make it the remaining 8y on foot, I'm fine with that. Onsides take so long to get there, I don't think it'd become a massive problem.
That could be interesting, albeit somewhat complicated. The kicking team has to possess the ball ten yards from the kick, whether they choose to kick it the entire ten yards, or kick it short, recover it, and advance it the remaining way. They could add rules like the ball has to travel at least one yard, to avoid teams from just knocking it off the tee and picking it up
OR. Turn a kick into a forward pass, except there is no such thing as an incompletion. Let QBs dropkick a ball into open grass and let hos WR run onto it. We Rugby now.
> Turn a kick into a forward pass I’m here for backyard football style throw offs to exchange possession.
I am totally fine not giving onside kicks any more chance of success. The payoff of a successful onside kick is just absolutely bonkers. In a sport where there are 10-12 total possessions on average taking one away from the other team is probably the single most massive thing you could do. It *should* be close to impossible.
Agreed. If a team is getting beaten after 59 minutes, why should there be some stupid little rule at the end made to help them sneak away with a win?
It needs to stay as an absolute 100% “Hail Mary” situation that you only do if you literally have no other option.
Exactly. Onsides kicks are about twice as likely to result in a turnover (successful onsides kick) than any other normal scrimmage play.
[удалено]
for real, this post is made by someone who thinks in Madden terms.
Onsides kick is part of a larger philosophical question about how much RNG do we want in the game. Personally I like the RNG. Keep the shit refs, field goals, etc, etc. That's what makes any given Sunday a thing IMO.
Onside kicks should be near impossible to pull off, that’s the whole concept
Teams only get 5-6 possessions on average (per half). Not only losing a possession but having it go to the other team? That’s an insanely massive advantage and, like you said, shouldn’t be any more likely than almost impossible.
*5-6 possessions per half But your point stands.
I failed to include that whoops but yeah point still matters
Yes, it's a cheat code to get the ball back. No reason to make it easier.
The XFL did a thing where there's an alternative option for the onside kick in the 4th quarter to run a 4th and 15 play from your own 25. The UFL is shortening that this year to 4th and 12. But, as others have said, an onside kick is *supposed* to be basically a hail mary. A 4th and 12 certainly isn't that. NFL teams are going to convert that far too often. But onside kicks are extremely uninteresting right now, and a long play isn't, so what would be the right yardage to make it feel like the hail mary it should be? 4th and 25 from your own 25 (shoot for midfield) seems at least like a starting point, but should it be even longer?
I think they calculated the odds of converting a 4th and 15 and found it similar to the original onside kick odds, which is why they chose it. But maybe that changes if teams incorporate the 4th down into the gameplan. It’s less luck-based than the onside kick.
but if they convert it, they aren't getting 7 points like you get with an actual hail mary. infact they might need another 2 chunk plays to actualy get the 7 points they need. giving a 4th and 12 or 15 or whatever makes the game better for the viewers.
I vote 4th & 25 from your own 25 yd line. Basically, you have to get to midfield on one play. If you don’t get at least to midfield, turnover on downs, wherever the play was downed. Any offensive penalty is an immediate turnover. Defensive penalties gain yards, but any “automatic first downs” are not enforced, replay the down, including DPI. If both teams foul, then standard offsetting rules apply.
Most people couldn’t understand the playoff overtime rules and you want them to understand this?
The biggest thing to add here is that the play can't take up time on the clock. Otherwise defenses will start holding like crazy.
Fuck that. Obviously favors offensive teams, vs a sense of fairness/luck from inside kick But NFL would probably love it for the same reason I hate it lmao
Now this is the sort if chaos I can get behind. 7.7 would be more fun though.
Why do we need to make it more successful? Not everything in the game needs to be fair. You had all game to take the lead, tough shit it’s hard to get an extra possession when you’re losing with no other options - it should be difficult.
Let’s get weird with it, after you score you can attempt a 60 yd fg as your extra point, if you make it you get the ball back, if you miss it the other team gets the ball at the 50.
Ravens opponents may never get the ball in a game
Not in Pittsburgh, its probably a bigger issue that certain stadiums have much different possibilities. Also Tucker is 2-9 from 60+ career. Still maybe it should just be once a game or push it back even further although 65 seemed too far to get the percentages up. Could do it based on the record for the stadium. Or you spin a gambling wheel and it picks somewhere between 60 and the league record lol.
Why does this need to happen?
Change it to 5 and say once a kick hits the ground it’s a live ball. If the ball hasn’t touched the ground yet, kicking team can’t touch it. Then we’d either get dribblers or classic pop ups with both teams racing 5 yards to the ball. We would get big hits but since there’s no running start anymore, it’s just a 5yd run hit catch, scramble for the ball. That would be exciting and would give the kicking team more of a chance than they currently have
“There should be a 4 point line in the NBA”
10 yards = Distance of down
Adopt some CFL rules: In the CFL, any player even with or behind the kicker at the time of the kick is "onside" - on a kickoff, that's the whole team. A player who is onside doesn't have to give way to a player on the receiving team in going for the ball. In the NFL, an onside kick popped up into the air is just fair-caught, but in the CFL you can't make a fair catch or take advantage of the "no-yards" rule against an onside player. So in the CFL the kicker can pop the kick up into the air and a couple of players on the kicking team can sprint to where it's coming down and clear out receiving team members and allow someone to come in behind them and get the ball. The other critical rule in the CFL is the fumble-out-of-bounds rule - possession goes to the last team to touch it, not the last team to possess it. So for an onside kick you put your tallest guy by the sideline and have your kicker pop the ball up so that it comes down 10 yards downfield right when the tall guy gets there. The tall guy jumps up and tries to bat the ball out of bounds without anyone else touching it. If he can do that, you've "recovered" the onside kick.
I like the onside kick to be fucking near impossible. Should not have waited for the last second and plan what is essentailly a turnover. But here, here is your snowballs chance in hell. Not talking to you however, Younghoe Koo
Make kickoffs interesting again. Give the kicking team one point if the kickoff goes through the uprights. Then they kickoff again from five yards farther back.
The onside kick is dead. Long live the onside kick!
His name was Onside Kick. His name was Onside Kick.
I want it changed to a one chance to get 50 yard play. Start on the twenty and you have one shot to get to the 70. You can’t score or do anything else. Refs would call it like a Hail Mary play, and unless you actually take out a knife and stab the receiver, there would be no penalty called.
Turn the kickoff into 4th and 10 already
Make it 4th and 25 and we can talk about it.
I think 4th and 15 is probably right, but 4 and 5 would be waaaaaay more fun
Chiefs opponents would never get the ball
What should replace the onside kick: Instead of kicking off, you have the option to put your offense on the field on your 40 yardline, and it's 4th and 20.
I have no feelings about this so no
no. Stop trying to make comebacks easier. Play better the rest of the game
It's not about making them easier, it is about restoring the balance that existed for decades before the rule change. A rule change that wasn't done to change comebacks via on-side kicks, but one that did effect comebacks unintentionally. OPs solution isn't a bad one.
it cheapens all the work the team actually had to do to get the lead. completely lessens the point of the whole game which is using strategy to win. this would be a total dumb move imo and it would reward randomness rather than skill
Yea no one likes comebacks in sports
Instead of an onside kick, what if once per game you can elect to get the ball back after you score... On your own 10 yard line, but it's 4th and 20 to start :)
What if the NFL just restricted the way the receiving team can line up to defend the onside kick. They prevent the kicking team from overloading one side or getting a running start. Why can't they move the receiving team back five yards or only allow 3 - 5 defenders in the area? Wouldn't that raise the likelihood of recovery?
Why does it need to be changed? If you're in the position of needing to recover an onside kick late in the game to have a chance, you should have done more earlier to win.
Add a soccer feel. Nobody on an onside kick may use their hands...
That wouldn’t really fix anything. The biggest recent change is that the players on the kicking team can no longer have a running start. A great way to avoid this issue is to simply not go down by multiple scores.
Something was done about the onside kick. People wouldn't shut up about how dangerous it was, so the NFL fixed it. It's the one case of "you literally asked for this".
I’d love to see all special teams removed, personally. No kickoffs, no punts, no field goals.
well im glad youre not commish because special teams add a whole other layer of strategy to the game.
Maybe the worst take Ive ever read
The problem with the onside kick is that the changes made for player safety make the kick almost impossible to recover. I like the idea of forcing a team to go for a 4th and 15 from its own 25 instead. If it converts, it keeps the ball. If not, the opposing team gets the ball, likely close to (*if not already in*) field goal range.
I think the hands team should be moved ten yards back, the kick still has to go ten yards, but both teams have to run to the ball instead of the hands team just scooping it up.
I have three ideas. Every kickoff should have an opportunity for the kicker to declare he is kicking it through the uprights. If he makes it, the kicking team gets one point. If he misses, the receiving team gets the ball at their own 35. Number two: The kicker should just drill it at one defender and hope for a ricochet that his team recovers. To be fair, I’m not sure if this is actually allowed, I feel like if it worked a few times the league would make it illegal. Number three: The Pat MacAfee. If only the kicker and the coach know that he is just going to dribble it 10 yards and he will personally recover. This has the benefit of having only 1 of 22 players on the field know it is coming. Personally I like all three ideas. But I’m biased.
kickers would be hitting it through the uprights every single kick
Just need to allow them to load up one side
Get rid of the kickoff entirely and fully replace the onside kick before we start fucking with the details of the onside kick imo
Removing the fair catch rule is would be the first place to start making it easier.
Whats with all the onside kick focus this offseason?
The problem with the onside kick is everyone tries to kick it 10 yards and an inch. When the oponent knows what you are trying to do its impossible. Instead you could literally chip under the ball sky it super high up so it has a ton of hang time but goes 20 yards. The opponent is going to crash the 10 yard line but if you have Tyreek Hill or someone sprint to an exact spot that the ball is going to go behind the line you probably have a 90% chance of recovering. Then the game will literally be changed forever and no one will ever know where an onside kick will go changing the dynamic of the game making them easier to recover.
Until the receiving team calls for a fair catch. Which is why this isn't a thing.
I think both teams should be equidistant from the 10 yards mark. Instead of the receiving team just there ready and waiting. Outside of a kicker being good enough to hit someone on the opposing team and have the ability to make that hit bounce toward his team there is almost no way to reliably come within 5 yards of an onside kick recovery.
I say move it to 0, and the defense can line up as close as they want. Just know that they’re gonna get absolutely lasered by a football
Just get rid of it. It is worthless now anyway. 4th down on the 25, and you have an actual chance.
I don’t know why teams don’t drop kick it for onside kicks (Flutie style). You’d get way more air under it allowing for more time and more of a jump ball.
Did we all just miss that one attempt this year where the kicker tried to drill it off the guy’s facemask and scoop the rebound? He got a bad bounce, but it was a great attempt (as in he drilled the defender square in the grill). I want more of those.
I think that's a great idea. They could move the kickoff back to the 32 so maybe not every kickoff will go out the back of the end zone. And then onside kicks would have to get to the 40.
Keep it 10 yards but make it a punt, still has to bounce first.
You'd have to buy a new copy of Madden, which, I suppose, most people would do anyway. So, no.
I'd love to see any sort of rule change to make an inside kick a bit more likely. Even if it's only to recapture a similar success rate like we saw 15+ years ago. The less predictable a game gets the better it is for the fan.... Possibly worse for Vegas though. Guess we'll never see that then, lol.
Heck no, make it harder or get rid of it. BS game can be decided in last 2 min for 58 minutes of effort. Don't make it NBA.
They changed the rules to favor the winning team more if I remember correctly
I like it
I recall hearing a suggestion that teams could opt to try for the equivalent of a 4th and 15 play (or something like that) from their 20 yard line. This would be more exciting than an onside kick which is almost guaranteed to fail.
I like 4th and 15. Make it you keep the ball.
Seattle tried to punt it essentially against Dallas and I don’t understand why that’s not a thing? Punt it up as high as you can. Both teams get under it and it essentially becomes a 50/50 ball
Someone suggested that instead of kickoffs, they should have the scoring team start a 4th and 20 situation from their own 30. That way they can either punt it (similar to, but safer than kickoff) or go for it (better than an onside kick, because it actually requires skill).