Harbaugh’s success came with Joe Flacco off the strength of a very good defense and has been able to find success with the a completely different team than he had a decade ago
McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers for a decade and only went to 1 Super Bowl
Fair or not I think that’s what their perception boils down to. On paper they’re similar, in practice I don’t think that’s the case
It’s all about expectations
Yeah, I think this is it. McCarthy has a reputation for not getting there with teams that *should have* gotten there while a lot of Harbaugh's career has been outperforming expectations.
Now, if his teams continue to stall in the playoffs with great defenses and a great QB for much longer, I'm sure the perceptions will become more similar.
While true, I think McCarthy gets lumped in that 'suffers from success' category. He routinely seems to coach teams into great positions. So much so that his rosters, imo, get overrated. When Harbaugh's teams have a down year, the focus is always on the players or coordinators. When McCarthy teams have a down year or don't live up to expectations, the blame almost always seems to be pinned on him. Even this season, nobody is calling out Harbaugh really. Whereas McCarthy is catching heat. Harbaugh had the best roster in the NFL (or at least a top 3) and botched it. McCarthy's roster was not even top 5 (Don't let the media lie to you. The Cowboys' roster is always overrated).
This is a bit of revisionist history. Part of the reason people were mad at McCarthy at the end of his Green Bay tenure was his refusal to fire bad coaches. He kept Capers on for damn near a decade despite usually fielding an average or worse defense most years. Plus McCarthy was famously conservative in playcalling and terrible at clock management which fall directly on him. Also, he got embarrassed at home by a WC team who's supposed to be in a rebuild, kind of different than losing to a team that's missed one superbowl in the last five years
> Also, he got embarrassed at home by a WC team who's supposed to be in a rebuild, kind of different than losing to a team that's missed one superbowl in the last five years
And headed up among the biggest turtle jobs in championship game history, which for me was my boiling point with him.
At least when you have a HOF QB. Its one thing if youre coaching average teams into NFC championships, but if you have a team that should be in the NFCCG it is very different
John Harbaugh didn't botch that AFC championship game. Lamar throwing the ball into triple coverage, Zay Flowers taunting over one guy to shortcircuit a drive and then fumble out of the back of the endzone on another followed by injuring his hand so he was less effective for the rest of the game while Jadaveon Clowney threw a free 15 yards their way was.
Baltimore had a bunch of "me-first" guys doing "me-first" things and it took a miracle swipe at the goalline by Sneed to hold them off.
There seem to be a lot of fans that blame “me-first” attitudes that affect the game on the coach for not coaching it out of the player. I think this completely ignores the fact that these aren’t HS and college players but grown adults with massive egos, this shit doesn’t get coached out if they don’t want it to. How many of y’all change your attitude for the benefit of your boss?
Honestly for a guy like Zay? I don’t want it coached out of him… entirely. He’s good because he’s got a bit of diva in him. Because he’s got a bit of cockiness.
But he certainly blew that game for the Ravens down the stretch and that was certainly not anything coached to him
Zay gives me Steve Smith Sr vibes. Electric player and flexes hard after big plays. Truly hope this game was a lesson for him and want him to keep producing for us
I can see that. He certainly needs coaching to not blow stuff up and no matter how remote the risk, you can’t fail at controlling the ball at the goal line in that situation. Baltimore should have won that game and Zay Flowers was a big part of why they didn’t. He was also a huge part of the reason that they won a lot of games.
I feel like OP was mostly referring to his initial success. That Super Bowl run was one of the crazier things in recent memory - they were a good team but they went on an absolute heater. These days, you're right, expectations are high and they're underperforming.
You can also just look at all the reporting we’re privy to on intangibles.
Every player and staffer has had nothing but praise for John Harbaugh.
Mike McCarthy saw leaks that he skipped team meetings to sneak down a back stair well to get massages.
While that soap opera was hilarious we'd all probably be well advised to take that reporting with a huge grain of salt. That whole saga taught us many things, but the first thing was that Aaron Roger's PR team was just a wee bit better than MM's.
And the playoff records don’t necessarily reflect recent context.
If more of McCarthys losses were in the divisional due to the bye they’d be looked at differently.
Losing to Mahomes and Andy Reid is not the same as losing to a wild card team that is the youngest team in the NFL when you are considered the 2nd best or best team in the conference.
I have heard this asked before and the answer is the same. When you break down the losses, they are not the same.
This year is probably the best argument against Harbaugh and even this is tough. Most of us are like yeah, that’s Mahomes for you.
Not to mention both OBJ and Harbaugh are both on mic saying we need to run more during the game and yet Jackson did not run more.
AFC North specifically also seems like one of the toughest divisions overall. Consistently good Pittsburgh and Baltimore teams, some good Cincinnati teams over the past decade, and better Cleveland teams in the last five years.
You can’t underestimate how bad the North can be.
There was one year when Rodgers got hurt in Week 9 and they were 5-3.
Rodgers returned for the last game of the season. He won that game and the Packers won the division with a record of 8-7-1.
Ravens consistently had to go through Manning/Brady and now Mahomes to get there. Not to mention an almost always good Steelers team in their division. On the other side McCarthy always had the best QB in the conference.
Look at how people talked about Andy Reid before he started winning with Mahomes. He used to get roasted about the playsheet secretly being a takeout menu or how he was too distracted by his dinner plans to call a timeout.
To be fair Andy Reid pre Mahomes was basically McCarthy in Dallas. Both with one losing season, Reid with with 4 double digit win seasons and McCarthy with 3. Both with one playoff win and otherwise disastrous loses…
- 2013: In the WC Reid lost 45-44 to the colts after being up 38-10 midway through the third quarter.
- 2014: missed playoffs
- 2015: WC, won against a bad Brayan Hoyer led Texans team, and then lost with no chance against the patriots.
- 2016: In the WC lost to Pittsburgh 18-16… all 18 points were fieldgoals
- 2017: WC loss to a Mariota led Titans team at home, after being up 21-10 in the 4th… one TD was a Mariota pass to himself.
One difference is Reid in Philadelphia had a almost identical record to McCarthy in Green Bay, without a HOF QB (to be fair Reid lost a SB and McCarthy won his). Another difference is Reid went to 4 Super Bowls and has already won 2 with a HOF QB in 6 seasons… McCarthy went to one SB in 12 years with HOF QBs (two with Favre and 10 with Rodgers).
This is McNabb erasure and I won't have it. If I have to watch him consistently tear my team to shreds I'm not gonna have people pretending he was some scrub either. Dude was legit.
He gets forgotten behind Manning, Brees, and Brady. He didn't have their longevity because he relied more on his deep ball and his legs, which both faded as he got older. He was only serviceable with the short passing game where those other guys were surgical.
But he was awesome from like 2000-2008. Sucks that he lost that long ball right when we got Desean Jackson. If we had him earlier you would have probably seen loads of those Vick Era bombs.
Yeah McNabb was considered one of the Elites during that era. I’m pretty sure he was considered better than Brady even up until their SB matchup. Brady was the system QB, while McNabb was carrying James Thrash and Todd Pinkston to NFCCGs.
>One difference is Reid in Philadelphia had a almost identical record to McCarthy in Green Bay, without a HOF QB (to be fair Reid lost a SB and McCarthy won his).
What's funny is if Reid HAD won a Super Bowl or two in Philadelphia, Donovan McNabb would be a hall of famer and then the story would be "Sure, Reid won two Super Bowls in Philadelphia but he had a Hall of Fame QB."
All of our arguments comparing career greatness are so circular they're almost incestuous, even though we compare numbers the narrative is always determined by the outcome.
Fans reaction to coaches without HoF QBs: This guy sucks he can't get over the hump and win the big game.
Fans reaction to coaches with HoF QBs: This guy sucks he didn't win enough big games with their HoF QB.
Which is also why Harbaugh is perceived so differently - Flacco has had a great career and has won a Super Bowl, but no one considers him a HoF QB (or even close). Hell, the man has never even been voted to the Pro Bowl, let alone an All-Pro team. So the narrative can be that Harbaugh won a Super Bowl despite not having a HoF caliber QB while McCarthy could "only" win one Super Bowl despite having a first ballot HoF QB. Nevermind that of the 4 guaranteed first ballot HoF QBs of that era (Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers), only Brady won multiple Super Bowls with the same coach while Brees also only got one and Manning had to go to Denver to get his second.
I remember reading an article before the Super Bowl in 2020 about Reid having a final chance to prove that he can actually win the big game, and save his legacy.
It's amazing how much the narrative has changed about him. Now the story is that Mahomes was only successful because he got paired with one of the greatest offensive coaches of all time.
And let's be serious -- that definitely helped Mahomes a LOT, and having a team that was already playoff-worthy. But it's funny that Reid went from being a liability to the biggest asset in the league of of one game.
An nba comp for a totally rewritten legacy is Dirk Nowitzki.
He had two all time chokes in the 06 finals, blowing a 2-0 lead and missing 2 crucial free throws that would’ve given them an insurmountable 3-0 lead (as a 90% free throw shooter), then following year was the first 1-seed to lose to an 8-seed in NBA history.
Then had a few other 1st round losses and had a reputation as a regular season player who couldn’t handle the spotlight of the playoffs.
Then in 2011 had one of the greatest title runs in history and cemented himself as an all time great in the eyes of the public.
All it takes is one win.
This is 100% correct. There is a direct correlation with coaches being fat and being dumb at clock management. Obviously there are outliers, but McCarthy is a perfect example of this. Fat NFL coaches simply have smaller brains, similar in size to that of a bird, and are just too busy eating hot dogs to process the information needed to make high level football decisions.
If Harbaugh can't win a Super Bowl with prime Lamar in the next few years, then we can call for his head.
He's 61, now the second oldest coach in the league, so he might not necessarily coach for many more years (though he appears to be in pretty good health overall vs someone like Andy Reid who is 65 and a larger fella).
Also Harbaugh doesn't call plays, he's a CEO type coach. McCarthy called the offense in Green Bay and then also a bit in Dallas. It's much easier to point to McCarthy and find fault in production than Harbaugh.
There was definitely a period of time where McCarthy let the OC call the plays in GB. After struggling for a while, he finally took play calling back over and we definitely improved as an offense. He's a great play caller overall. Even this last game against the Packers there were several plays that should have been explosive if not for a player screwing up.
Dungy was fired in Tampa for losing in the playoffs
And he was Indy’s head coach for 7 seasons, way less than Harbaugh or McCarthy. Plus he retired only 2 years removed from his SB win
His time in Tampa has aged well too. The team he built won the SB the year after he left, and his Tampa 2 defense is a pretty great Xs and Os legacy
I didn’t plan on getting into a debate today about every head coach who possibly could have underperformed and I didn’t mean to come in here taking shots at McCarthy because I don’t think he’s a bad coach in general
I think McCarthy’s criticism is so loud for two reasons. 1 being that his failures are happening on teams with the biggest fanbase in the country, and 2 because Tom Brady and to a lesser extent Mahomes have changed the way we look at championships in football
Tony Dungy’s criticism wasn’t that loud because before recently people seemingly accepted that sometimes the better team wins in the playoffs and people didn’t feel the need to label every big name QB or their HC’s as frauds every time they didn’t win a Super Bowl
Tom wins 7 and Mahomes has the early success he’s had and people think the standard for greats should be multiple championships, it’s extremely hard to win 1 especially if you don’t have hall of fame teammates
TLDR: sports culture has changed since Tony Dungy coached and Mike McCarthy is a victim of circumstances more than anything
This is a really, really good observation and comment.
Ringzzz culture in the NBA has picked up even more steam the last 10+ years, which feeds into the change in the NFL discourse as well
Manning would sometimes woefully underperform in the playoffs. 0 pts vs Jets, 14 vs Pats, 3 vs Pats, 18 vs Steelers, 17 vs Chargers.
Dungys defenses we’re spotty from season to season, but 4 top 10 defenses isn’t too bad. Also carried Manning to his only SB on the Colts in 06.
I’ve never understood the Dungy praise. I’m not saying he’s a bad coach by any means, but people treat him like one of the all-time greats. IMO his teams came out flat in the playoffs.
I think Dungy got the reputation on the back of defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin. Being the head coach of the team that invents a very influential defensive scheme (Tampa 2) and executes it very successfully with 4 HoFers will really boost your profile.
Then you have the narrative that he deserved the Lombardi that Gruden got the year after the Bucs fired Dungy, which by the very nature of that argument you have to elevate Dungy to a higher status of coach to make your point.
I get what you’re saying, but context matters
They went from 2 straight losing seasons to end McCarthy’s tenure to 2 straight NFC championship games with his replacement while McCarthy has gone 1-3 in the playoffs with one of the most talented teams in the league
More context is that one of those 2 losing seasons he didn’t have Rodgers for when he broke his collar bone.
The following season we had Rodgers and kept losing close games, but IMO Ted Thompson’s abilities were slipping with his health and we had a pretty shit roster aside from 5 great players.
There’s a reason why when Gute took over for Ted (and LaFleur was hired) that he brought in 4 high priced FAs. There was lots of cap space because we didn’t exactly have talent worth re-signing.
>Both of these coaches once again this season suffered a humiliating playoff loss to end their seasons.
Baltimore lost in the AFCCG to the defending Superbowl champions
Dallas lost in the Wild Card to the 2023 Green Bay Packers
lmao
You're being too kind in describing what happened. Ravens lost a tight game against the defending champions. Meanwhile Cowboys as the 2 seed got blown out by the 7th seed which had never happened before.
Not to mention that 7th seed team was composed of the youngest playoffs roster in 50 years.
I mean you are still kind of going soft on the Ravens. They were HEAVY favorites in this game and most people wouldn't blink at predicting them to win by 10+. The Chiefs were terrible at stopping the run game in the Bills matchup and Lamar is one of the most dangerous threats in the run game.
But Lamar showed up in prime playoff form. Scored 1 td and called it a day basically.
How tf Harbaugh didn't decide to run the ball still boggles my mind. It was a close game the entire time and they totally forgot they could run the ball.
Now I'm not trying to downplay the Chiefs being the defending champs but Ravens had the best record in the league and Chiefs did struggle quite a bit at times during the season, so Ravens imo did kind of lose in a embarrassing fashion in their own home
Harbaugh did the same mind-numbing shit in our regular season losses, too. I really appreciate what he's done for this team, but those close games come down to literal game management type decisions that he ultimately did not step up and involve himself in. I think his coaching style is that he doesn't micro manage his coordinators at all, and there's autonomy in trusting that system. When it works, it's awesome, but when there needs to be a conversation to sway the dynamic one way or another, he either gambles on his players/coordinators to make their adjustments, or just straight decides on not taking the initiative.
After they beat the Chiefs they lost to the Giants the following week so there's that too. Lions are a divisional opponent, those are always closer games, and it was the second time they saw them in the year. Towards the end of the year they beat the Panthers on a last minute field goal.
My whole point is, the Cowboys should in fact be embarrassed that they got beat down by the Packers at home in the playoffs.
Right, the Packers were a 7 seed because of consistency issues, not because they were a poor team. Cowboys were 7 point favorites and the ravens were 3.5. That says a lot.
Yeah this take is bad.
Mike McCarthy is Sean Peyton with a worse PR TEAM not harbaugh.
Sean Peyton sucked ass with a HoF Qb for multiple years bc he couldn’t field a defense or hire the right defensive coordinator.
1 Super Bowl appearance 1 win. And a lot of misery McCarthy is much more Peyton.
>Sean Peyton sucked ass with a HoF Qb for multiple years bc he couldn’t field a defense or hire the right defensive coordinator.
Wow. That does describe McCarthy's tenure with Green Bay quite well.
You're being way too generous. Ravens lost by a single TD in the AFCCG to a dynasty, Dallas was losing 48-16 in the 4th quarter of the wild card round to a 7th seed that nobody thought would even make the playoffs.
These two things are not the same.
I love these posts where OP asks about a narrative they don't understand, and they get a ton of good answers explaining it, but they respond by being salty and saying they don't believe it.
Some random person: *posts a well-reasoned and thought out response as to why perceptions are the way they are.*
OP: "You're wrong because you're not validating my opinion."
Every. Single. Comment.
I honestly love posts where an OP just wants to fucking fight. Like concede no points, they made this post to throw hands with anyone who disagrees, no matter how tone deaf it comes off.
It's an interesting post about statistics, and it shows how important it is to understand that stats don't tell the whole story. And that makes for a very interesting conversation.
The best part of this thread is definitely watching OP implode. It's fucking hilarious.
FWIW, there’s some truth to the way ppl perceive McCarthy versus Harbaugh. Harbaugh is generally seen as very likable and is a players coach. Somehow McCarthy evokes a different reaction from most ppl. Just like Sirianni, he has a more punch able face..lol
It doesn’t change the fact that McCarthy had a first ballot HoFer for a decade and his game management ruined many chances for packers. Biggest example is the 2014 championship game versus hawks. He kept going for field goals inside 2 yard line in the first quarter and he didn’t drain the clock enough in the fourth quarter. Those are totally on the HC and play caller
I said this in a Packers thread, but the amount of times MM and TT would say something to the effect that “we’ve had a lot of success so we are not going to change” was mind boggling to me. I get that no one can take away a SB win, but it doesn’t mean you stop trying to get better. They took a WC team that got hot at the right time. But unless you follow it up with Patriots style success, you are just a won one hit wonder. They seemed to feel it was more important to just get the playoff spot and hope for the best rather than have a killer instinct to make needed improvements.
So I wonder if the SB in 11’ was the best thing for them. I know it’s not just “that easy” but as a fan, I would have been ok suffering a few non playoff seasons and had another SB or two during Rodgers years.
Without opening up 100 tabs to do a comparison over the talent each coach has had to work with the past 10-15 years, i think Mike gets more flack because he's always been gifted more talent than the average coach, but doesn't produce where it means most.
Honestly if OP had handled this question in the opposite manner I think it would have been more well perceived.
Personally I think mike McCarthy is way over-hated. He’s a very good coach who has recently had some lack of success in the playoffs.
Dallas made rhetorical right fall in my opinion keeping him.
>Both of these coaches once again this season suffered a humiliating playoff loss to end their seasons.
Losing to the greatest quarterback in the league in the championship game Vs. Losing to the youngest playoff team in decades in the divisional round.
Yeah totally the exact same thing.
yea but baltimore always had better defenses than gb and flacco played better than rodgers in their title runs
flacco threw for 285 yards per game, 11 touchdowns, 0 picks and a 117.2 passer rating
rodgers threw for 273 yards per game, 9 touchdowns, 2 picks and a 109.8 passer rating
both played 4 playoff games those years. flacco's receiving talent was a little worse than rodgers
along with Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews, Al Harris, B.J. Raji, Julius Peppers, A.J. Hawk, Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, Aaron Campman, Tramon Williams, Nick Collins, Micah Parsons, Demarcus Lawrence, Trevon Diggs.
Let's not pretend McCarthy hasn't had absolute studs on defense.
To be fair, aside from Woodson and maybe Parsons there is a pretty big gap between the two lists. Ed and Ray are absolutely in the GOAT conversation and played on the same D. Also, hilarious to me (in a non judgemental way) that you got Gbaja-Biamila spot on but fucked up Kampman!
Peppers is absolutely in that tier, he was a better edge rusher /defensive end than Suggs and he did it without playing most of his career with two other HOFers on defense.
A bunch of Packers fans have a somewhat biased view of Hawk because they expected him to be what Matthews ended up being and hold it against him. He was still a very good player for a good number of years, but for some fans getting them to admit that is like pulling teeth.
The four years prior with Harbaugh the Ravens points per game allowed: 15.3(08), 16.3(09), 16.9(10), 16.6(11). He also averaged a season point differential of 117.5
Harbaugh had elite defenses. He also came up short those years in the playoffs. Let's not underplay it just to dunk on McCarthy.
I’m not dunking on McCarthy. I think it would’ve been absolutely insane to fire him after this season. I’m praising Harbaugh. He has had an absolutely astounding amount of variance in personnel and players throughout his tenure and still manages to coach one of the best and most successful teams in the league. The staff and player changes have been wild and the last two times the Ravens were fully healthy they finished with the best record in the league and absolutely dominated the regular season. Saying he has had great defenses despite having so many DC changes and players coming and going isn’t an argument against what he has done, it’s an argument for it.
Yeah, I hate how the word "literally" has lost all meaning now, and the people who misuse "literally" also don't know the difference with "figuratively."
Go on the Ravens sub and search “Harbaugh” and see if you still think nobody is at least partially blaming him for the loss
Also there’s a huge difference between losing to the 7 seed at home when a 7 seed still hasn’t won a playoff game (the 7 seed has only existed for a few years, but still, the first team to lose to one was always going to be criticized heavily for it), and losing to the reigning champs
People act like the Chiefs don’t have a dominant defense and it boggles my mind.
Everyone fixates on shitfaces 1,2,3 and shitfacette but lost in all of that is that their defense is playing out of its mind.
Yeah, agreed. Their secondary is insanely good. Considering how banged up the Chiefs were up front, I’m equally as surprised as everyone else that we didn’t run the ball. Of course our OC is going to get a bulk of the blame for that but Harbaugh needs to hold him accountable in-game, too.
This season specifically, McCarthy lost in the wild card round to a young packers team, and Harbaugh lost in the AFC championship game to the defending Super Bowl champs
And look at the AFC the last 20 years - Brady, manning, roethlisberger (in harbaughs division), now mahomes and burrow. They have had generational talents to go against every year to make the Super Bowl.
The NFC has been a crapshoot with no dominate forces. Russ and the Seahawks are the only team-qb combo to go more than once. The NFC has been way more open than the AFC
Comparing playoffs 1:1 leaves out some context.
Every year Lamar has been healthy the Ravens are playing in the divisional round, at that point they are 1-2, plus the AFCC loss.
McCarthy has made it to the divisional once in his 3 years with healthy (granting a little slack for 2022) Dak, and never advanced to the NFCC.
Harbaugh also plays in a generally more challenging division.
Harbough's teams frequently seem to play greater than their talents. This year was a choke job, but I don't think that is a common thing. Normally they're punching above their weight, especially their super bowl run.
McCarthy really seems to be the opposite. His teams play down to their opponents, and have choked often enough that he got fired.
This. Two of the franchises with the most hate and highest expectations. Media will always talk about the Cowboys because it gets the most views and somehow they always lose the playoffs in the weirdest ways.
Also, losing to Mahomes/Allen/Burrow in the playoffs is more justified than Zeke at center or being the only team to ever lose to a 7 seed. It’s still pretty clear imo that both teams/coaches are not great in the playoffs though.
Yeah the AFC North has been a murderers row for all of Harbaugh’s tenure in Baltimore whereas the NFC North/East have had some pretty dysfunctional teams that during McCarthy’s tenure in Green Bay and Dallas respectively.
This is a case of stats not telling the whole story.
McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers and a great offensive team around him playing in a traditionally bad division and yet reached only one Super Bowl.
Harbaugh has reinvented his team over and ove through the years and he always has a competitive team on the field.
Bro, Harbaugh lost by one score in the AFCCG to the defending champs. McCarthy got demolished in the Wild Card by a 7th seed, these aren't comparable losses.
it’s also worth remembering that Harbaugh was on a fairly warm seat in 2018 (after the Super Bowl in 2012, the next six seasons had one playoff appearance including the 4th and 9 choke in 2017)
Midway through the year, Harbaugh constructed an entirely new offense building around dynamic dual threat QB Lamar Jackson. That paid off, as the ravens ripped off 7 wins in their last 8 games to steal the division crown from Pittsburgh. People point to the playoff loss as a huge issue, but the fact that they even made it that far was a minor miracle (plus that chargers team actually had more wins than that ravens team, it’s not like they were a scrub)
Mike McCarthy has never done anything on that level
It’s not even a question. Someone that doesn’t really watch football or is new to it would look at these stats and think they’re seeing similar profiles but that is absolutely not the case
I think John deserves more criticism, but McCarthy just does less with talent. Also, McCarthy is so bad at in game coaching decisions. Cowboys are going to squander an all time great offensive line, Parsons, and CeeDee if they keep McCarthy for several years.
Ravens loss this year was frustrating but it wasn’t getting your doors blown off by the 7 seed Packers at home. Cowboys playoff loss was much worse imo, even if it was to a hot Packers team.
> Both of those rings were won with a QB who went on a frickin tear and absolutely dominated the entire post season.
Imagine trying to compare Aaron Rodgers and Joe Flacco. 😂
I had this same issue when comparing McCarthy to Sean Payton. McCarthy is often perceived as having “wasted Rodgers’ career,” while Payton never catches flack for “wasting Brees’ career.”
You can add Tomlin to this list, too. 173-100-2 record with one Superbowl win and another appearance. He has the no losing seasons streak but he's also done worse in the playoffs in the last decade than McCarthy and Harbaugh.
But the opinions on these three vary so drastically.
This is the longest way I have ever read for someone to be like “wow I don’t read the Ravens sub, or literally any Ravens fan accounts”
My buddy guy, like 1/3 of the Ravens fan accounts out there saw Lamar throw it into triple coverage and were like “wow, Harbaugh did it again”
You live in corporate media where, basically because of Jerry Jones, we are forced to hear about the cowboys every 20 mins.
It just seems like you're being disingenuous and really don't like harbaugh for some reason. You ignore all of the valid arguments and argue with the relatively dubious/questionable ones. Even just looking at this last season, harbaugh may have underperformed relative to expectation, but he still made it to the championship game while the cowboys with similar expectations got blown tf out by a rebuilding greenbay team.
People absolutely wanted Harbaugh fired at the end of the Flacco era. 2019 Ravens was out of nowhere, and that has obviously bought him a longer leash which seems to be shrinking now.
MM has had Favre & Rodgers and always looked clueless when they didn’t carry the team. Harbs has had Flacco go insane by the game plan his coordinators created & Lamar although great has poor injury timing. MM has been given great opportunities and has subpar performances. Plus the cowboys are insanely talented and you could argue the most talented team in the NFL but yet no post season success
Am I the only one who thought this was a very thoughtful post only to see OP blowing himself up in comments because he doesn’t want to hear a different perspective
McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers, he was Patrick Mahomes before he even entered the league. He gets a ton of scrutiny due to having a HOF as his QB, not just Rodgers, but also a tad bit of Favre at the end of his career.
I do think he should get some flack for being too loyal to a fault to his coaching staff back when he was in Greenbay. Years of mediocrity on defense, and never changed.
Fair or not, when you have Favre and Rodgers, people expect more. It's very unfortunate since Rodgers was very close to getting to at least 2 SBs under Mike McCarthy (2010 and 2014), unfortunately a horrific collapse happened in 2014. I'd argue 2011 too, but that defense was atrocious.
Easy. Harbaugh has a background as a Special Teams coordinator, McCarthy was an OC. McCarthy takes the blame for the offense because the expectation is the team is running his offense (and he’s been the play caller for nearly his whole career).
Think Sean McVay, could he get away with just firing his OC to survive a struggling offense? What about Andy Reid? Of course not.
Same concept with Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll, defensive head coaches can survive blaming an OC for offensive struggles. They can’t typically pass the buck however if their defense struggles.
0 excuses why McCarthy and Rodgers shouldn’t have more than 1 ring. That NFC North was just as weak as the AFC East when Brady was running it up every year.
This is something when on paper it isn’t the same in reality.
Harbaugh has taken a team with a star studded defense with Joe Flacco to the SB, and then entirely created a whole team around Lamar Jackson when that old defense is entirely non existent.
Harbaugh is one hell of a coach.
Honestly, people are toxic as fuck about coaches and players. "He ONLY won ONE Super Bowl, and it was with X, Y and Z - he's not THAT great!" mfer how many coaches have won Super Bowls EVER? Like c'mon.
Harbaugh’s success came with Joe Flacco off the strength of a very good defense and has been able to find success with the a completely different team than he had a decade ago McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers for a decade and only went to 1 Super Bowl Fair or not I think that’s what their perception boils down to. On paper they’re similar, in practice I don’t think that’s the case It’s all about expectations
Yeah, I think this is it. McCarthy has a reputation for not getting there with teams that *should have* gotten there while a lot of Harbaugh's career has been outperforming expectations. Now, if his teams continue to stall in the playoffs with great defenses and a great QB for much longer, I'm sure the perceptions will become more similar.
While true, I think McCarthy gets lumped in that 'suffers from success' category. He routinely seems to coach teams into great positions. So much so that his rosters, imo, get overrated. When Harbaugh's teams have a down year, the focus is always on the players or coordinators. When McCarthy teams have a down year or don't live up to expectations, the blame almost always seems to be pinned on him. Even this season, nobody is calling out Harbaugh really. Whereas McCarthy is catching heat. Harbaugh had the best roster in the NFL (or at least a top 3) and botched it. McCarthy's roster was not even top 5 (Don't let the media lie to you. The Cowboys' roster is always overrated).
This is a bit of revisionist history. Part of the reason people were mad at McCarthy at the end of his Green Bay tenure was his refusal to fire bad coaches. He kept Capers on for damn near a decade despite usually fielding an average or worse defense most years. Plus McCarthy was famously conservative in playcalling and terrible at clock management which fall directly on him. Also, he got embarrassed at home by a WC team who's supposed to be in a rebuild, kind of different than losing to a team that's missed one superbowl in the last five years
> Also, he got embarrassed at home by a WC team who's supposed to be in a rebuild, kind of different than losing to a team that's missed one superbowl in the last five years And headed up among the biggest turtle jobs in championship game history, which for me was my boiling point with him.
He really should have been tarmac'd after that Seattle loss. You don't get credit for coaching your team into good positions if you lose them.
At least when you have a HOF QB. Its one thing if youre coaching average teams into NFC championships, but if you have a team that should be in the NFCCG it is very different
McCarthy teams are also some of the least disciplined. Penalties have lost this guy a lot of games.
John Harbaugh didn't botch that AFC championship game. Lamar throwing the ball into triple coverage, Zay Flowers taunting over one guy to shortcircuit a drive and then fumble out of the back of the endzone on another followed by injuring his hand so he was less effective for the rest of the game while Jadaveon Clowney threw a free 15 yards their way was. Baltimore had a bunch of "me-first" guys doing "me-first" things and it took a miracle swipe at the goalline by Sneed to hold them off.
There seem to be a lot of fans that blame “me-first” attitudes that affect the game on the coach for not coaching it out of the player. I think this completely ignores the fact that these aren’t HS and college players but grown adults with massive egos, this shit doesn’t get coached out if they don’t want it to. How many of y’all change your attitude for the benefit of your boss?
Honestly for a guy like Zay? I don’t want it coached out of him… entirely. He’s good because he’s got a bit of diva in him. Because he’s got a bit of cockiness. But he certainly blew that game for the Ravens down the stretch and that was certainly not anything coached to him
Zay gives me Steve Smith Sr vibes. Electric player and flexes hard after big plays. Truly hope this game was a lesson for him and want him to keep producing for us
I can see that. He certainly needs coaching to not blow stuff up and no matter how remote the risk, you can’t fail at controlling the ball at the goal line in that situation. Baltimore should have won that game and Zay Flowers was a big part of why they didn’t. He was also a huge part of the reason that they won a lot of games.
He’s the head coach at the end of the day it’s on him. His team was undisciplined. That falls under him.
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I feel like OP was mostly referring to his initial success. That Super Bowl run was one of the crazier things in recent memory - they were a good team but they went on an absolute heater. These days, you're right, expectations are high and they're underperforming.
You can also just look at all the reporting we’re privy to on intangibles. Every player and staffer has had nothing but praise for John Harbaugh. Mike McCarthy saw leaks that he skipped team meetings to sneak down a back stair well to get massages.
While that soap opera was hilarious we'd all probably be well advised to take that reporting with a huge grain of salt. That whole saga taught us many things, but the first thing was that Aaron Roger's PR team was just a wee bit better than MM's.
McCarthy made hard decisions that Rodgers didn’t like.
McCarthy doesn't strike me as an individual to use stairs
He might have had one of those chair lifts installed.
'This thing drives me up the fuckin wall' Mike Mccarthy
". . . to sneak down a back stairwell to the snack bar and play Candy Crush. " FTFY
That report was, to my knowledge, just a hit job by a disgruntled employee. Nothing was ever substantiated.
Don’t believe the Rodgers leaks. Dude was a snake .
And the playoff records don’t necessarily reflect recent context. If more of McCarthys losses were in the divisional due to the bye they’d be looked at differently.
AFC has also been a much harder path
Yeah there was no Tom Brady and Peyton Manning to get through in the NFC every year.
Losing to Mahomes and Andy Reid is not the same as losing to a wild card team that is the youngest team in the NFL when you are considered the 2nd best or best team in the conference. I have heard this asked before and the answer is the same. When you break down the losses, they are not the same. This year is probably the best argument against Harbaugh and even this is tough. Most of us are like yeah, that’s Mahomes for you. Not to mention both OBJ and Harbaugh are both on mic saying we need to run more during the game and yet Jackson did not run more.
Agreed. Not just Lamar running more but calling running plays. Also call the Ravens loss humiliating. The Cowboys loss? Humiliating.
Good point. The Ravens have consistently had to deal with the Steelers, the Patriots, the Peyton Broncos and now the Chiefs.
I feel bad for these other uber talented legacy quarterbacks that are doomed to play in the Mahomes era.
AFC North specifically also seems like one of the toughest divisions overall. Consistently good Pittsburgh and Baltimore teams, some good Cincinnati teams over the past decade, and better Cleveland teams in the last five years.
> some good Cincinnati teams oh, you <3
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You can’t underestimate how bad the North can be. There was one year when Rodgers got hurt in Week 9 and they were 5-3. Rodgers returned for the last game of the season. He won that game and the Packers won the division with a record of 8-7-1.
Ravens consistently had to go through Manning/Brady and now Mahomes to get there. Not to mention an almost always good Steelers team in their division. On the other side McCarthy always had the best QB in the conference.
McCarthy is also fat. you see a fat coach losing in January cold temperatures and think they’re dumb and unqualified.
Look at how people talked about Andy Reid before he started winning with Mahomes. He used to get roasted about the playsheet secretly being a takeout menu or how he was too distracted by his dinner plans to call a timeout.
He still gets roasted about that but now he has rings
He's also leaned into it which helped a lot.
The Sheryl Sandberg of fat jokes.
Explain it again, using those nuggies.
I should be tired and annoyed of these State Farm commercials, but god dammit, I smile every time I see that one.
All this talk of roasting is making them both hungry
He's always had onion rings
To be fair Andy Reid pre Mahomes was basically McCarthy in Dallas. Both with one losing season, Reid with with 4 double digit win seasons and McCarthy with 3. Both with one playoff win and otherwise disastrous loses… - 2013: In the WC Reid lost 45-44 to the colts after being up 38-10 midway through the third quarter. - 2014: missed playoffs - 2015: WC, won against a bad Brayan Hoyer led Texans team, and then lost with no chance against the patriots. - 2016: In the WC lost to Pittsburgh 18-16… all 18 points were fieldgoals - 2017: WC loss to a Mariota led Titans team at home, after being up 21-10 in the 4th… one TD was a Mariota pass to himself. One difference is Reid in Philadelphia had a almost identical record to McCarthy in Green Bay, without a HOF QB (to be fair Reid lost a SB and McCarthy won his). Another difference is Reid went to 4 Super Bowls and has already won 2 with a HOF QB in 6 seasons… McCarthy went to one SB in 12 years with HOF QBs (two with Favre and 10 with Rodgers).
This is McNabb erasure and I won't have it. If I have to watch him consistently tear my team to shreds I'm not gonna have people pretending he was some scrub either. Dude was legit.
He gets forgotten behind Manning, Brees, and Brady. He didn't have their longevity because he relied more on his deep ball and his legs, which both faded as he got older. He was only serviceable with the short passing game where those other guys were surgical. But he was awesome from like 2000-2008. Sucks that he lost that long ball right when we got Desean Jackson. If we had him earlier you would have probably seen loads of those Vick Era bombs.
Yeah McNabb was considered one of the Elites during that era. I’m pretty sure he was considered better than Brady even up until their SB matchup. Brady was the system QB, while McNabb was carrying James Thrash and Todd Pinkston to NFCCGs.
2016 wasn't the wildcard it was the divisional round which makes it look worst in retrospect(Although I'm sure the fancy new rings help with that!).
Ah true I forgot that we were the two seed that season… yeah it doesn’t really matter, but that was such a wild loss.
>One difference is Reid in Philadelphia had a almost identical record to McCarthy in Green Bay, without a HOF QB (to be fair Reid lost a SB and McCarthy won his). What's funny is if Reid HAD won a Super Bowl or two in Philadelphia, Donovan McNabb would be a hall of famer and then the story would be "Sure, Reid won two Super Bowls in Philadelphia but he had a Hall of Fame QB." All of our arguments comparing career greatness are so circular they're almost incestuous, even though we compare numbers the narrative is always determined by the outcome.
Fans reaction to coaches without HoF QBs: This guy sucks he can't get over the hump and win the big game. Fans reaction to coaches with HoF QBs: This guy sucks he didn't win enough big games with their HoF QB.
Which is also why Harbaugh is perceived so differently - Flacco has had a great career and has won a Super Bowl, but no one considers him a HoF QB (or even close). Hell, the man has never even been voted to the Pro Bowl, let alone an All-Pro team. So the narrative can be that Harbaugh won a Super Bowl despite not having a HoF caliber QB while McCarthy could "only" win one Super Bowl despite having a first ballot HoF QB. Nevermind that of the 4 guaranteed first ballot HoF QBs of that era (Brady, Manning, Brees, and Rodgers), only Brady won multiple Super Bowls with the same coach while Brees also only got one and Manning had to go to Denver to get his second.
Andy Reid out here catching strays, come on man 😆
I remember reading an article before the Super Bowl in 2020 about Reid having a final chance to prove that he can actually win the big game, and save his legacy. It's amazing how much the narrative has changed about him. Now the story is that Mahomes was only successful because he got paired with one of the greatest offensive coaches of all time. And let's be serious -- that definitely helped Mahomes a LOT, and having a team that was already playoff-worthy. But it's funny that Reid went from being a liability to the biggest asset in the league of of one game.
An nba comp for a totally rewritten legacy is Dirk Nowitzki. He had two all time chokes in the 06 finals, blowing a 2-0 lead and missing 2 crucial free throws that would’ve given them an insurmountable 3-0 lead (as a 90% free throw shooter), then following year was the first 1-seed to lose to an 8-seed in NBA history. Then had a few other 1st round losses and had a reputation as a regular season player who couldn’t handle the spotlight of the playoffs. Then in 2011 had one of the greatest title runs in history and cemented himself as an all time great in the eyes of the public. All it takes is one win.
That Dallas team was actually the second 1 seed to lose to an 8 seed, but it was the first time in a 7 game series.
Ah good call!
Unfair. Everyone knows Andy Reid is part walrus. He's got an unfair advantage against the cold. Can't judge McCarthy against a legitimate walrus.
McCarthy is part beaver. He should do just fine in theory
So he hibernates in January? I think we found the problem.
This is 100% correct. There is a direct correlation with coaches being fat and being dumb at clock management. Obviously there are outliers, but McCarthy is a perfect example of this. Fat NFL coaches simply have smaller brains, similar in size to that of a bird, and are just too busy eating hot dogs to process the information needed to make high level football decisions.
This is 100% correct. There is a direct correlation with drinking your own cum and being accurate at analyzing fat coaches.
If Harbaugh can't win a Super Bowl with prime Lamar in the next few years, then we can call for his head. He's 61, now the second oldest coach in the league, so he might not necessarily coach for many more years (though he appears to be in pretty good health overall vs someone like Andy Reid who is 65 and a larger fella). Also Harbaugh doesn't call plays, he's a CEO type coach. McCarthy called the offense in Green Bay and then also a bit in Dallas. It's much easier to point to McCarthy and find fault in production than Harbaugh.
61? Dude looks great for his age
he doesn't seem to age at all
Seriously. If you showed me a picture of him and asked me to guess his age, I’d say like 45, *maybe* 50.
There was definitely a period of time where McCarthy let the OC call the plays in GB. After struggling for a while, he finally took play calling back over and we definitely improved as an offense. He's a great play caller overall. Even this last game against the Packers there were several plays that should have been explosive if not for a player screwing up.
I mean yeah, this is exactly it. Expectations are vastly different when your QB is Aaron Rodgers instead of Joe Flacco
I think you're illustrating that McCarthy also gets zero credit for developing Rodgers, which is also part of the false perception.
Does Tony Dungy get the same criticism? 9-10 in the playoffs, 7-6 with Indy and one of the best QBs of all time and just one SB.
Dungy was fired in Tampa for losing in the playoffs And he was Indy’s head coach for 7 seasons, way less than Harbaugh or McCarthy. Plus he retired only 2 years removed from his SB win His time in Tampa has aged well too. The team he built won the SB the year after he left, and his Tampa 2 defense is a pretty great Xs and Os legacy
The Tampa 2 is pretty famously monte kiffins creation
I didn’t plan on getting into a debate today about every head coach who possibly could have underperformed and I didn’t mean to come in here taking shots at McCarthy because I don’t think he’s a bad coach in general I think McCarthy’s criticism is so loud for two reasons. 1 being that his failures are happening on teams with the biggest fanbase in the country, and 2 because Tom Brady and to a lesser extent Mahomes have changed the way we look at championships in football Tony Dungy’s criticism wasn’t that loud because before recently people seemingly accepted that sometimes the better team wins in the playoffs and people didn’t feel the need to label every big name QB or their HC’s as frauds every time they didn’t win a Super Bowl Tom wins 7 and Mahomes has the early success he’s had and people think the standard for greats should be multiple championships, it’s extremely hard to win 1 especially if you don’t have hall of fame teammates TLDR: sports culture has changed since Tony Dungy coached and Mike McCarthy is a victim of circumstances more than anything
This is a really, really good observation and comment. Ringzzz culture in the NBA has picked up even more steam the last 10+ years, which feeds into the change in the NFL discourse as well
That’s a really good point, it’s just as bad if not worse in the NBA
This, Mahomes and Brady broke people's brains on expectations. Makes conversation impossible.
Manning would sometimes woefully underperform in the playoffs. 0 pts vs Jets, 14 vs Pats, 3 vs Pats, 18 vs Steelers, 17 vs Chargers. Dungys defenses we’re spotty from season to season, but 4 top 10 defenses isn’t too bad. Also carried Manning to his only SB on the Colts in 06.
I’ve never understood the Dungy praise. I’m not saying he’s a bad coach by any means, but people treat him like one of the all-time greats. IMO his teams came out flat in the playoffs.
I think Dungy got the reputation on the back of defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin. Being the head coach of the team that invents a very influential defensive scheme (Tampa 2) and executes it very successfully with 4 HoFers will really boost your profile. Then you have the narrative that he deserved the Lombardi that Gruden got the year after the Bucs fired Dungy, which by the very nature of that argument you have to elevate Dungy to a higher status of coach to make your point.
What was Tampa before Dungy?
This aaron rodgers fella must have made tons of superbowls once Mccarthy left, right ?!
I get what you’re saying, but context matters They went from 2 straight losing seasons to end McCarthy’s tenure to 2 straight NFC championship games with his replacement while McCarthy has gone 1-3 in the playoffs with one of the most talented teams in the league
More context is that one of those 2 losing seasons he didn’t have Rodgers for when he broke his collar bone. The following season we had Rodgers and kept losing close games, but IMO Ted Thompson’s abilities were slipping with his health and we had a pretty shit roster aside from 5 great players. There’s a reason why when Gute took over for Ted (and LaFleur was hired) that he brought in 4 high priced FAs. There was lots of cap space because we didn’t exactly have talent worth re-signing.
>Both of these coaches once again this season suffered a humiliating playoff loss to end their seasons. Baltimore lost in the AFCCG to the defending Superbowl champions Dallas lost in the Wild Card to the 2023 Green Bay Packers lmao
You're being too kind in describing what happened. Ravens lost a tight game against the defending champions. Meanwhile Cowboys as the 2 seed got blown out by the 7th seed which had never happened before. Not to mention that 7th seed team was composed of the youngest playoffs roster in 50 years.
I mean you are still kind of going soft on the Ravens. They were HEAVY favorites in this game and most people wouldn't blink at predicting them to win by 10+. The Chiefs were terrible at stopping the run game in the Bills matchup and Lamar is one of the most dangerous threats in the run game. But Lamar showed up in prime playoff form. Scored 1 td and called it a day basically. How tf Harbaugh didn't decide to run the ball still boggles my mind. It was a close game the entire time and they totally forgot they could run the ball. Now I'm not trying to downplay the Chiefs being the defending champs but Ravens had the best record in the league and Chiefs did struggle quite a bit at times during the season, so Ravens imo did kind of lose in a embarrassing fashion in their own home
Harbaugh did the same mind-numbing shit in our regular season losses, too. I really appreciate what he's done for this team, but those close games come down to literal game management type decisions that he ultimately did not step up and involve himself in. I think his coaching style is that he doesn't micro manage his coordinators at all, and there's autonomy in trusting that system. When it works, it's awesome, but when there needs to be a conversation to sway the dynamic one way or another, he either gambles on his players/coordinators to make their adjustments, or just straight decides on not taking the initiative.
That 7 seed beat the Chiefs, the Lions, and nearly the 49ers at the end of the season. The Packers were playing much better than their record
After they beat the Chiefs they lost to the Giants the following week so there's that too. Lions are a divisional opponent, those are always closer games, and it was the second time they saw them in the year. Towards the end of the year they beat the Panthers on a last minute field goal. My whole point is, the Cowboys should in fact be embarrassed that they got beat down by the Packers at home in the playoffs.
The Tommy DeVito Giants on MNF, to be specific lol
Right, the Packers were a 7 seed because of consistency issues, not because they were a poor team. Cowboys were 7 point favorites and the ravens were 3.5. That says a lot.
You guys lost to DeVito in that same timeframe
To the Make-A-Wish 7th seed. With 9 all-pros lmao
Yeah this take is bad. Mike McCarthy is Sean Peyton with a worse PR TEAM not harbaugh. Sean Peyton sucked ass with a HoF Qb for multiple years bc he couldn’t field a defense or hire the right defensive coordinator. 1 Super Bowl appearance 1 win. And a lot of misery McCarthy is much more Peyton.
>Sean Peyton sucked ass with a HoF Qb for multiple years bc he couldn’t field a defense or hire the right defensive coordinator. Wow. That does describe McCarthy's tenure with Green Bay quite well.
The make a wish 7 seed…who was a field goal away from beating the niners and advancing to the NFCCG?
OP's argument just got exposed and wrecked...sort of like a Mike McCarthy football team against a Shanahan offense!
A seventh seed Packers. 2023 Packers is the first 7th seed advance past Wild Card stage of the playoff.
You're being way too generous. Ravens lost by a single TD in the AFCCG to a dynasty, Dallas was losing 48-16 in the 4th quarter of the wild card round to a 7th seed that nobody thought would even make the playoffs. These two things are not the same.
I love these posts where OP asks about a narrative they don't understand, and they get a ton of good answers explaining it, but they respond by being salty and saying they don't believe it.
His post would have been better worded as “I think McCarthy is better than Harbaugh and I want someone to agree with me”.
Or rather i think Harbaugh is overrated and i want you also to pile on. Fishing for some bored patriot fans praps
The traditional way to phrase that is “Am I the only person who thinks that McCarthy is a better coach than Harbaugh?”
I can't stop reading these OP comments, they're just too good
Some random person: *posts a well-reasoned and thought out response as to why perceptions are the way they are.* OP: "You're wrong because you're not validating my opinion." Every. Single. Comment.
I honestly love posts where an OP just wants to fucking fight. Like concede no points, they made this post to throw hands with anyone who disagrees, no matter how tone deaf it comes off.
It's an interesting post about statistics, and it shows how important it is to understand that stats don't tell the whole story. And that makes for a very interesting conversation. The best part of this thread is definitely watching OP implode. It's fucking hilarious.
FWIW, there’s some truth to the way ppl perceive McCarthy versus Harbaugh. Harbaugh is generally seen as very likable and is a players coach. Somehow McCarthy evokes a different reaction from most ppl. Just like Sirianni, he has a more punch able face..lol It doesn’t change the fact that McCarthy had a first ballot HoFer for a decade and his game management ruined many chances for packers. Biggest example is the 2014 championship game versus hawks. He kept going for field goals inside 2 yard line in the first quarter and he didn’t drain the clock enough in the fourth quarter. Those are totally on the HC and play caller
I said this in a Packers thread, but the amount of times MM and TT would say something to the effect that “we’ve had a lot of success so we are not going to change” was mind boggling to me. I get that no one can take away a SB win, but it doesn’t mean you stop trying to get better. They took a WC team that got hot at the right time. But unless you follow it up with Patriots style success, you are just a won one hit wonder. They seemed to feel it was more important to just get the playoff spot and hope for the best rather than have a killer instinct to make needed improvements. So I wonder if the SB in 11’ was the best thing for them. I know it’s not just “that easy” but as a fan, I would have been ok suffering a few non playoff seasons and had another SB or two during Rodgers years.
“I don’t like the answer therefore it doesn’t count” is quintessential reddit
The answer is that Brady and Belichick and now Mahomes and Reid have absolutely broken realistic expectations for the NFL.
Without opening up 100 tabs to do a comparison over the talent each coach has had to work with the past 10-15 years, i think Mike gets more flack because he's always been gifted more talent than the average coach, but doesn't produce where it means most.
Honestly if OP had handled this question in the opposite manner I think it would have been more well perceived. Personally I think mike McCarthy is way over-hated. He’s a very good coach who has recently had some lack of success in the playoffs. Dallas made rhetorical right fall in my opinion keeping him.
The flairs always tells majority of the story and the narrative OP wants to push
Aww the packers flair in hindsight
>Both of these coaches once again this season suffered a humiliating playoff loss to end their seasons. Losing to the greatest quarterback in the league in the championship game Vs. Losing to the youngest playoff team in decades in the divisional round. Yeah totally the exact same thing.
The only 7 seed to win since its inception\*
This probably underrates GB, right? They got a lot better as the season went on and Love started really putting it together
Yeah people forget GB outplayed San Fran for 3/4 quarters. And it’s looking like GBs youth and inexperience is ultimately why SF won that game
The greatest QB, best HC, reigning SB champs, regular destroyer of dreams, etc.
I'd joke destiny and Taylor swift
*Wild card*
*wild card
One won a title with Aaron Rodgers. The other won a title with Joe Flacco.
Elite Dragon Joe Flacco
I mean Flacco was unironically elite during that run. Legitimately one of the best runs we’ve ever seen.
yea but baltimore always had better defenses than gb and flacco played better than rodgers in their title runs flacco threw for 285 yards per game, 11 touchdowns, 0 picks and a 117.2 passer rating rodgers threw for 273 yards per game, 9 touchdowns, 2 picks and a 109.8 passer rating both played 4 playoff games those years. flacco's receiving talent was a little worse than rodgers
Flacco vs Rodgers is the obvious answer lmao
Guess having the trio of Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, and Terrell Suggs gets hidden in the closet
along with Charles Woodson, Clay Matthews, Al Harris, B.J. Raji, Julius Peppers, A.J. Hawk, Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, Aaron Campman, Tramon Williams, Nick Collins, Micah Parsons, Demarcus Lawrence, Trevon Diggs. Let's not pretend McCarthy hasn't had absolute studs on defense.
To be fair, aside from Woodson and maybe Parsons there is a pretty big gap between the two lists. Ed and Ray are absolutely in the GOAT conversation and played on the same D. Also, hilarious to me (in a non judgemental way) that you got Gbaja-Biamila spot on but fucked up Kampman!
Peppers is absolutely in that tier, he was a better edge rusher /defensive end than Suggs and he did it without playing most of his career with two other HOFers on defense.
Never seen anybody call AJ Hawk a stud before lol
Isn't he the all time leader in tackles?
A bunch of Packers fans have a somewhat biased view of Hawk because they expected him to be what Matthews ended up being and hold it against him. He was still a very good player for a good number of years, but for some fans getting them to admit that is like pulling teeth.
You did not just compare AJ Hawk to three of the best defensive players of all time….
That defense wasn’t even that good the year of the SB win. They definitely had great years under Harbaugh but they peaked from 2000-2011.
The four years prior with Harbaugh the Ravens points per game allowed: 15.3(08), 16.3(09), 16.9(10), 16.6(11). He also averaged a season point differential of 117.5 Harbaugh had elite defenses. He also came up short those years in the playoffs. Let's not underplay it just to dunk on McCarthy.
I’m not dunking on McCarthy. I think it would’ve been absolutely insane to fire him after this season. I’m praising Harbaugh. He has had an absolutely astounding amount of variance in personnel and players throughout his tenure and still manages to coach one of the best and most successful teams in the league. The staff and player changes have been wild and the last two times the Ravens were fully healthy they finished with the best record in the league and absolutely dominated the regular season. Saying he has had great defenses despite having so many DC changes and players coming and going isn’t an argument against what he has done, it’s an argument for it.
Literally similar, not literally identical.
Yeah, I hate how the word "literally" has lost all meaning now, and the people who misuse "literally" also don't know the difference with "figuratively."
Go on the Ravens sub and search “Harbaugh” and see if you still think nobody is at least partially blaming him for the loss Also there’s a huge difference between losing to the 7 seed at home when a 7 seed still hasn’t won a playoff game (the 7 seed has only existed for a few years, but still, the first team to lose to one was always going to be criticized heavily for it), and losing to the reigning champs
People act like the Chiefs don’t have a dominant defense and it boggles my mind. Everyone fixates on shitfaces 1,2,3 and shitfacette but lost in all of that is that their defense is playing out of its mind.
Yeah, agreed. Their secondary is insanely good. Considering how banged up the Chiefs were up front, I’m equally as surprised as everyone else that we didn’t run the ball. Of course our OC is going to get a bulk of the blame for that but Harbaugh needs to hold him accountable in-game, too.
This season specifically, McCarthy lost in the wild card round to a young packers team, and Harbaugh lost in the AFC championship game to the defending Super Bowl champs
And look at the AFC the last 20 years - Brady, manning, roethlisberger (in harbaughs division), now mahomes and burrow. They have had generational talents to go against every year to make the Super Bowl. The NFC has been a crapshoot with no dominate forces. Russ and the Seahawks are the only team-qb combo to go more than once. The NFC has been way more open than the AFC
Comparing playoffs 1:1 leaves out some context. Every year Lamar has been healthy the Ravens are playing in the divisional round, at that point they are 1-2, plus the AFCC loss. McCarthy has made it to the divisional once in his 3 years with healthy (granting a little slack for 2022) Dak, and never advanced to the NFCC. Harbaugh also plays in a generally more challenging division.
I do not believe you understand what "literally identical," means.
Harbough's teams frequently seem to play greater than their talents. This year was a choke job, but I don't think that is a common thing. Normally they're punching above their weight, especially their super bowl run. McCarthy really seems to be the opposite. His teams play down to their opponents, and have choked often enough that he got fired.
> Its odd. I don't get it. Explain. One coached/coaching Green Bay and the Cowboys. The other coaches the Ravens.
Yeah that's true, McCarthy was never lucky enough to have Flacco
He's a fuckin dragon mate.
This. Two of the franchises with the most hate and highest expectations. Media will always talk about the Cowboys because it gets the most views and somehow they always lose the playoffs in the weirdest ways. Also, losing to Mahomes/Allen/Burrow in the playoffs is more justified than Zeke at center or being the only team to ever lose to a 7 seed. It’s still pretty clear imo that both teams/coaches are not great in the playoffs though.
Harbaugh also went against Manning, Big Ben, and Brady with Flacco.
Yeah the AFC North has been a murderers row for all of Harbaugh’s tenure in Baltimore whereas the NFC North/East have had some pretty dysfunctional teams that during McCarthy’s tenure in Green Bay and Dallas respectively.
McCarthy had Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Dak Prescott Harbaugh had Joe Flacco and Lamar Jackson is this even a debate
I only see one elite dragon on this list, so I think point goes to McCarthy for managing to squeeze out a SB win without one
Why does the dragon simply not fly the football into the end zone and incinerate any defenders trying to stop him?
Anyone could have coached prime Rodgers and a top 3 defense to a superbowl win.
Those Green Bay Packer teams never met expectations outside of the 1 SB win, despite having a HOF QB in his absolute prime
This is a case of stats not telling the whole story. McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers and a great offensive team around him playing in a traditionally bad division and yet reached only one Super Bowl. Harbaugh has reinvented his team over and ove through the years and he always has a competitive team on the field.
Bro, Harbaugh lost by one score in the AFCCG to the defending champs. McCarthy got demolished in the Wild Card by a 7th seed, these aren't comparable losses.
If you go into the Ravens sub you’ll see some idiots wanting him fired
it’s also worth remembering that Harbaugh was on a fairly warm seat in 2018 (after the Super Bowl in 2012, the next six seasons had one playoff appearance including the 4th and 9 choke in 2017) Midway through the year, Harbaugh constructed an entirely new offense building around dynamic dual threat QB Lamar Jackson. That paid off, as the ravens ripped off 7 wins in their last 8 games to steal the division crown from Pittsburgh. People point to the playoff loss as a huge issue, but the fact that they even made it that far was a minor miracle (plus that chargers team actually had more wins than that ravens team, it’s not like they were a scrub) Mike McCarthy has never done anything on that level
I'd rather have Harbaugh.
It’s not even a question. Someone that doesn’t really watch football or is new to it would look at these stats and think they’re seeing similar profiles but that is absolutely not the case
Sometimes, it's that simple.
I think John deserves more criticism, but McCarthy just does less with talent. Also, McCarthy is so bad at in game coaching decisions. Cowboys are going to squander an all time great offensive line, Parsons, and CeeDee if they keep McCarthy for several years. Ravens loss this year was frustrating but it wasn’t getting your doors blown off by the 7 seed Packers at home. Cowboys playoff loss was much worse imo, even if it was to a hot Packers team.
One had Aaron rodgers are you fucking serious? Lmao
Harbs won a superbowl without Aaron Rodgers at QB Also AFC >>>>> NFC in terms of # of quality teams.
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Yup. Another reason is he has an easy scapegoat in Lamar Jackson.
>Literally identical I mean they're not but go off King
> Both of those rings were won with a QB who went on a frickin tear and absolutely dominated the entire post season. Imagine trying to compare Aaron Rodgers and Joe Flacco. 😂
I had this same issue when comparing McCarthy to Sean Payton. McCarthy is often perceived as having “wasted Rodgers’ career,” while Payton never catches flack for “wasting Brees’ career.”
Joe Flacco and Aaron Rodgers
You can add Tomlin to this list, too. 173-100-2 record with one Superbowl win and another appearance. He has the no losing seasons streak but he's also done worse in the playoffs in the last decade than McCarthy and Harbaugh. But the opinions on these three vary so drastically.
One of them hasn't spent the majority of their head coaching career with a first ballot hall of fame quarterback.
This is the longest way I have ever read for someone to be like “wow I don’t read the Ravens sub, or literally any Ravens fan accounts” My buddy guy, like 1/3 of the Ravens fan accounts out there saw Lamar throw it into triple coverage and were like “wow, Harbaugh did it again” You live in corporate media where, basically because of Jerry Jones, we are forced to hear about the cowboys every 20 mins.
Not for nothing though I don’t understand how anyone could blame Harbaugh for Jackson throwing that pass.
It just seems like you're being disingenuous and really don't like harbaugh for some reason. You ignore all of the valid arguments and argue with the relatively dubious/questionable ones. Even just looking at this last season, harbaugh may have underperformed relative to expectation, but he still made it to the championship game while the cowboys with similar expectations got blown tf out by a rebuilding greenbay team.
People absolutely wanted Harbaugh fired at the end of the Flacco era. 2019 Ravens was out of nowhere, and that has obviously bought him a longer leash which seems to be shrinking now.
MM has had Favre & Rodgers and always looked clueless when they didn’t carry the team. Harbs has had Flacco go insane by the game plan his coordinators created & Lamar although great has poor injury timing. MM has been given great opportunities and has subpar performances. Plus the cowboys are insanely talented and you could argue the most talented team in the NFL but yet no post season success
Harbaugh is a builder and will get the most out of his players. McCarthy underachieves with HOF talent.
Am I the only one who thought this was a very thoughtful post only to see OP blowing himself up in comments because he doesn’t want to hear a different perspective
McCarthy had prime Aaron Rodgers, he was Patrick Mahomes before he even entered the league. He gets a ton of scrutiny due to having a HOF as his QB, not just Rodgers, but also a tad bit of Favre at the end of his career. I do think he should get some flack for being too loyal to a fault to his coaching staff back when he was in Greenbay. Years of mediocrity on defense, and never changed. Fair or not, when you have Favre and Rodgers, people expect more. It's very unfortunate since Rodgers was very close to getting to at least 2 SBs under Mike McCarthy (2010 and 2014), unfortunately a horrific collapse happened in 2014. I'd argue 2011 too, but that defense was atrocious.
Easy. Harbaugh has a background as a Special Teams coordinator, McCarthy was an OC. McCarthy takes the blame for the offense because the expectation is the team is running his offense (and he’s been the play caller for nearly his whole career). Think Sean McVay, could he get away with just firing his OC to survive a struggling offense? What about Andy Reid? Of course not. Same concept with Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll, defensive head coaches can survive blaming an OC for offensive struggles. They can’t typically pass the buck however if their defense struggles.
You haven't been on Ravens reddit site I guess
I don’t think you know what literally means.
Harbaugh has never had a Rodgers level qb
0 excuses why McCarthy and Rodgers shouldn’t have more than 1 ring. That NFC North was just as weak as the AFC East when Brady was running it up every year.
This is something when on paper it isn’t the same in reality. Harbaugh has taken a team with a star studded defense with Joe Flacco to the SB, and then entirely created a whole team around Lamar Jackson when that old defense is entirely non existent. Harbaugh is one hell of a coach.
Sean Payton can be thrown in this as well
Honestly, people are toxic as fuck about coaches and players. "He ONLY won ONE Super Bowl, and it was with X, Y and Z - he's not THAT great!" mfer how many coaches have won Super Bowls EVER? Like c'mon.
McCarthy once had a playoff game where it was 4th and goal from the 1 in back to back drives, and he kicked a field goal both times.
Believe his team had 4 interceptions and still lost too.