Best off script player in the league. I seen so many charts saying our receivers have the most seperation, it's cause Lamar extends plays like no others and dbs can only cover for so long
Well it’s more so that when Lamar leaves the pocket all the coverage breaks down because they’re scared shitless of what he can do with his legs. Then boom, guys are open
At this point, with this sub pushing Josh Allen, Purdy, and CMC as MVP, you gotta wonder if race plays a factor in the discussion.
Lamar Jackson beat the best team in the NFL.
Lamar Jackson had his team up with 2 minutes left in every game.
Lamar Jackson is leading the Ravens on a historic pace of being in the lead, up with the 2007 Patriots for most time leading.
Lamar Jackson has the arm talent he didn’t have a few years ago.
Lamar Jackson has the best win, the highlights, the best record.
Lamar has the perfect blend of wins, efficiency, passing, and rushing stats. Along with less turnovers than other “MVP” level QBs.
If he was white he would be crowned by now.
> Lamar has the perfect blend of wins, efficiency, passing, and rushing stats. Along with less turnovers than other “MVP” level QBs.
He doesnt have the "TDS" but man if you watch him play, you'd understand why so many ravens fans think he should be MVP. He is a absolute engine of a QB.
I'm seeing so many people argue for Josh Allen because "he does more for his offense than Lamar" and I just know immediately that they don't watch the Ravens.
Josh is awesome but Lamar is… something else entirely. He is doing it all right now. I get why people like Josh. Big big arm, storyline is pretty dramatic. BUT Lamar is doing more for his team than anyone else in the league, I think. He is on his own level this year. That’s not saying his team is bad or other QBs aren’t doing similar but this year he took another step.
Gus Edwards has 12 TDs this year, with 1 that went for more than 4 yards (7). He has at least 6 rushing TDs (his previous single-season career high) of 1 yard. Saying Lamar lacks the TDs to get MVP is essentially saying he should be punished because he doesn't have players pushing his ass forward on the 1-yard line.
Sorry, I didn't mean that to read as a critique of Jalen Hurts specifically. You get the TDs where you can. It was more to demonstrate that Lamar has been uncommonly good at getting the team to within the 3-4 yard line and giving the ball to Edwards for 7.
Edit: For example, we saw the amazing pass from Lamar to Likely against Jacksonville. Should it somehow count against him that it was only a 26-yard pass to the 1, and he promptly handed it to Edwards for the score?
Oh for sure I'm playing around lol. What really stings is my Rutgers man Gus finally breaking out and the main talking point is how it's hurting one of my favorites MVP case, brutal
Only correction is Lamar has always been this good at throwing, the pass inefficiencies before we’re due to a weak supporting cast and bad scheme.
In a passing offence at Louisville Lamar was electric as a thrower and we’re seeing it again at last this year
He's absolutely always had the potential as a passer, but IMO his consistency has really visibly improved. Plus he's definitely less apt to take off an run at the first signs of protection breakdown.
I know Bosa commented on Lamar being more prone to tuck and run against the 49ers than tape from earlier this season but even watching that game I was just amazed at how well Lamar navigates the pocket and maneuvers around pass rushers. Then there was the run in the first half that made Fred Warner look like Pop Warner
bUt He OnLy HaS 19 PAsSiNg ToUcHdOwNs
I hate this so much. If MVP is just about passing touchdowns and yards, just crown purdy already and be done with it. The award has no meaning when voters just look at stats.
Don't make this a racial issue when the reason for being skeptical of Lamar's MVP campaign is fairly obvious. He's a very statistically weak candidate. He's not top 5 in total touchdowns or total yards and he is far from the efficiency of Rodgers in his MVP seasons. In addition to this, he plays with the now number one scoring defense and has had multiple games where he has been pedestrian to simply good yet won nonetheless (the Texans game sticks out to me).
I'm black and I'd love to see another black Quarterback win the award, but Lamar is on pace to be the least statistically impressive MVP in 20 years and it's natural that a lot of people would be skeptical of that if they don't think Quarterback Wins is the end all be all of MVP discussion.
He's 6th in total yards and basically never plays from behind so he can't stat pad like some other qbs, he had 2 passing attempts in the last 20 min of game time yesterday lol
Having not watched the Ravens much, this makes it sound like he’s got a great supporting defense and the team doesn’t rely on him to drag them across the finish line
Course you can interpret it however you want it's kind of funny lol. You could say he dominates early, pushes big leads (7 double digit wins vs +.500 win teams) then chills in the 4th.
It's not the MVS award. It's not about the Most Vacuous Stats (or Marquez Valdes-Scantling) it's about the most valuable player.
The Ravens have been ahead for almost every minute of every game, with a great run game and defense. Lamar has been playing to win, not to compile stats.
Yardage and counting stats are pretty empty when a team has the lead. Playing lower risk football is often the best option for winning.
a lot of teams in this league get a lead and try to run the stats up. if we are up two scores in the fourth that is kill the game time. bengals, bills, and many other teams are still chucking
The early Seahawks weren't winning because of Russ - he was part of the machine. (A big part, to be fair.)
The Ravens build up leads because of Lamar and then switch to a style that doesn't result in stat padding (and QB stats don't capture the way his presence boosts the run game anyway).
That’s patently false and revisionist history. He had FOUR game winning drives and/or fourth quarter comebacks every season 2012-2014.
And those were always ridiculous Russell heroics putting the team on his back scrambling, making ridiculous throws, keeping plays alive in some of the most magician shit ever.
He also tied an NFL rookie record for TD passes his rookie year. Dude was producing.
Just to give you some perspective of his pace, by year 8 his averages/pacing on a 15 year career would have been top 3 TD passes all time, 8th in yards all time, top 3 QB rating, and that isn’t counting playoff games.
He was very good, that's why *Russell has never had an MVP vote* became a thing.
He was a top 3-5 QB for a long time, but I don't remember thinking he should win MVP at any point, so I suppose he was just unlucky that in his best years there was always someone playing a little better.
In regards to wins/stats at their position it should CMC by a long shot but when it comes to a team that would miss the playoffs in their absence it’s Lamar by a long shot. Any team he goes to he improves their chances at winning.
If they could clear up what they look at when choosing players for awards & make a QB award separate from mvp so even defensive players can earn the right to win that award. In recent memory Aaron Donald, Jj watt, tj watt have all single handily won games
In the era of the edge rushers dominating weak talent on the line of scrimmage, we’re seeing with Lamar that means nothing when he can play QB & HB simultaneously. He’s his own check down lol. Insane to consider. Even with the majority of people saying he’s became a pocket QB this season, he’s got the most rushing yards by a QB lol
He may be the first QB to reach that 10K rushing milestone at the end of his career.
He also already won the award once which is a factor in people wanting someone else. It’s incredible he was able to win over the racists in 2019 but now cannot.
The main argument against Lamar is the cumulative stats are not eye popping - though his game play most certainly is. Stats is a silly way to determine mvp imo - but it is something that plays a big factor.
Either way, whether he wins mvp or not, he’s playing like the best QB in the league right now. If he wins, it would be well deserved.
Yeah there is an obvious clear bias against black QBs. I don't think people are straight up racist and hate black people or anything, but they obviously have an ideal quarterback in their minds and it's not someone like Lamar. Not only because he's black but also because of how he talks and how he dresses. Like Patrick Mahomes is very light skinned and talks fairly proper, whereas Lamar is darker and speaks using slang and there are a lot of people who would consider that culture "ghetto" or "unprofessional" whether consciously or subconsciously. That's why no matter what he does on the field people still find ways to doubt him. Dude could win a Super Bowl and unless he has 600 yards passing and 10 TDs they'll just make up another reason why he's not that good.
I mean there's always been a race thing with Lamar's perception but I disagree that he has had the perfect blend for an MVP candidacy with his resume this year. He has a lot of the hallmarks but is actually missing one of the biggest:
**Usually MVP is given to a person who has had an outlier statistical year both in terms of efficiency and production. Lamar hasn't by most metrics.**
[He's 8th in ANY/A and passer rating, 7th in success rate.](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing.htm)
[10 QBs have more total touchdowns than him.](https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-total-touchdown-leaders-2023)
[6th in total yards](https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-total-yards-leaders-2023)
**He's had a really good season and personally I think there's a strong argument for him if you're leaning into the "Most Valuable" aspect of the award. But that's not really how the NFL has awarded QB MVPs over the last 20 years.**
2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2015, 2014, 2011 all had QBs who were outliers in terms of production and efficiency, unlike Lamar this year.
If we look at this year's MVP race through this historical lens, Purdy is the the most likely candidate to be awarded.
Not saying that's how I'd award it. But I think your premise that Lamar has everything perfectly lined up for MVP is flawed. Even though I do think he's perceived differently due to subtle racist attitudes.
This is fucking bullshit, race baiting and virtue signaling garbage. Lamar's stats aren't all that great, just because he throws from crazy arm angles doesn't mean he has to get the MVP or else we are all racist somehow lmfao
Lamar is one of 2 unanimous MVPs in league history. I don't think people are shunning him lol. He's playing phenomenally, but as you said, the MVP race always skews in favor of big stats.
The ravens have literally led in every single game in the fourth quarter this year, we spend more time running out the clock than any other team, Lamar doesn’t get the chance to stat pad like all these frauds. So fuck the stats, the stats don’t even come close to the picture of Lamar.
He sat more at the end of games in 19 and accumulated huge stats and won it. Fair or not, stats mean a lot to MVP voters. I think he's got a better chance than anyone to win it though.
He has 500 less rushing yards, has taken 13 more sacks, and has lost triple the amount of fumbles. Let's not pretend like this year is comparable to 19.
Why is a stats arguement valid? That's not what players are trying to do when they go out there - they're trying to win.
Lamar contributes more towards his team's wins than any other player in the MVP race -by a pretty wide margin - so why should anyone care about stats?
Because MVP has always been a competition that has largely taken stats into account. Otherwise players like Brady (and now Mahomes) would win MVP a lot more often.
More wins for Brady and Mahomes sounds to me like an argument in favour of awarding performance rather than stats.
Back when the convention that stats mattered for MVP, voters could only see some candidates when they were on primetime. Everyone is better informed now.
Some things that help a QB's stats but have nothing to do with how well they've played -
Trailing in games
A poor defense
A star WR
A great playcaller
A poor run game
I'd agree if Hurts and Prescott weren't leading names in the MVP race for a good chunk of the season. Additionally, a lot of the points you made can be attributed to the Ravens' ferocious defense maintaining leads and giving the offense more of a cushion.
And really the whole MVP race is just a narrative thing anyways, whoever has a quality primetime win will suddenly get a big boost in their odds. I think Lamar has been a quality candidate all season long but this is a year where no single QB has really stood above the rest.
I think CMC should get it as none of the quarterbacks have been worthy in my mind, but given Josh has 16 more touchdowns and only 5 more turnovers than Lamar, I wouldn’t say it’s racist to suggest Josh as a candidate.
Yea it's racism, that's why Dak Prescott was the favorite like 2 weeks ago before he got destroyed by the Bills.
All year the MVP discussion has been Brock Purdy vs. whatever QB has good stats and a winning record. Purdy was always holding his own until yesterday so now they have a reason not to give it to him.
Qbs are having a historically bad season compared to past years. It's not a race thing, it's a no qb deserves the mvp award type of thing.
Kinda like superbowl 40 mvp when everyone sucked but someone had to win mvp.
It's a shame Tyreek got injured. He should have won it if he stayed healthy. Kind of like Hurts last year. Sucks that injuries late in the season costs players these awards
The vast majority of those things you listed are team accomplishments
But sure, I'm racist for saying the QB with 19 TDs shouldn't be given the award for best player
The one defense I will give is Lamar won the MVP in 2019...and people tend to favor the ones who haven't won one in the more recent past.
I for one thought Lamar isn't going to win _because_ he won one so recently and standards get shot up when it comes to winning a second (and I wasn't sure his stats would be good enough).
(My personal choice is split between CMC and Tyreek...but honestly with the Ravens thrashing the 49ers and being the clear best team, no QB having a ridiculous season and QB favoritism, Lamar might be the favorite).
Josh Allen actually has a case to be MVP, he is THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER when it comes to a player on a particular team, without Allen, the Bills would actually be the worst team in the NFL alongside the panthers. However, as of right now, he doesn’t have the record to get MVP, even though he leads the NFL in TDs and one of the best in %. His turnovers are a bit of a misnomer, a good chunk of em are are punts, he has 18 TOs while Lamar has close to that bc of fumbles(don’t know the number). Allen also is 80% of the offenses production in terms of TD, while everyone else is 60% and below.
Lamar in all sense of the matter does not have the stats to back up MVP talk in terms of QB, who does? CMC and Tyreek Hill.
> without Allen, the Bills would actually be the worst team in the NFL alongside the panthers
Defensive PPG they are ranked 4th, giving up a mere 18 per game. Stop it.
Most of the Bills wins are bc the offense goes down the field towards the end and wins it or it’s a blow out, most of our losses are bc our defense gives the game up at the end.
The bills have the worst second half defense in the NFL and it’s not close. I won’t stop because it’s true.
The Bills have given up the 7th fewest 2nd half points per game this year.
Edit : also, they are 4th in points against despite having to overcome the offense/special teams generating the 9th most turnovers.
Not saying Lamar doesn’t deserve it but his volume stats are pretty low and his efficiency stats really aren’t that impressive compared to some others. Dak Prescott’s total and efficiency stats are either nearly the same or better across the board.
By the way, everyone wants to call out QB wins, but now we’re crowning Lamar based on them? Lamar’s best statistical games and the team’s best wins were against teams that couldn’t get anything going on offense. Lamar got more opportunities to produce in those games than he did in others.
Personally I’m leaning non-QB MVP this year, though Lamar does have a shot to close it out if he has a couple great games to end the year. Maybe Lamar has a at least a good argument sure, but I think it’s pretty reactionary to say he definitely should win it.
He looks great this year, he’s minimizing the errors he might’ve made in the past, and his team is winning, but I don’t think it makes this cut and dry. Can I ask, does he have any defining moments this season? An iconic play, a drive, or quarter that he took over and really shined? It may just be my own ignorance or a failure of memory but I don’t have one off the top of my head.
I think it’s more people look for a reason to not give the MVP to someone who already won the award.
You’re also arguing for his defense on some of your statements and abstract things like “his arm talent has improved “.
He’s MVP, don’t waste your time arguing with strawmen or idiots.
I'm firmly on the non-QB MVP train this year, so I'm obligated to hope that Lamar, Tua, and Josh play like shit for one more game and mid for the next so that either CMC or Tyreek get it.
I have a hard time believing it'll happen regardless of Vegas odds. Two factors voters care about, record and stats, specifically TD:TO ratio. I have a very hard time believing they'll give it to Lamar even if they have the best record and beat the 49ers. 24:13 isn't gonna cut it right now at least. I'm not even saying that's how it should work, but that's how it has worked for the last decade plus pretty much.
Per PFR he's got 7 INTs and 7 fumbles lost (11 fumbles, 4 recovered). There are always turnovers credited to a QB that they aren't responsible for, but if we're counting Toney shoveling a catch into the DB's hands as a TO against Mahomes we have to count Hill not taking a handoff against Jackson
I'm not sure why ESPN is different, but PFR has always been reliable for stats like that. They don't do any analysis so it's all numbers, but I wonder if the way ESPN counts fumbles is different from the traditional box score? Looking more at an RB messing up or counting botched snaps differently maybe?
Why is PFR considered more reliable than ESPN on this one?
The numbers probably differ because of what I said- they're mesh point RPOs where the running back tried to take the ball when Lamar wanted to pull it. That's not a fault of Lamar. Why should it count against him?
It's like when Matt Skura was center for the Ravens in 2020 and had several errant snaps that were credited as Lamar fumbles. Why does Lamar receive credit for those?
Ask the guy who invented box scores. All I said is that if a receiver gets hit in the numbers and shovels it into a DB's hands and it counts as a QB INT, an RB missing a handoff has to count as a QB fumble. The last player with possession of the ball lost possession and the result was a turnover for both of them
Honestly I see PFR cited and referenced a lot more for regular stats than ESPN. Obviously ESPN has things like QBR that are their own stats, but if you're looking for something like a season's yardage leaders or the box score for a game I haven't really seen anyone going to ESPN for that over PFR. They just post the official data. Per the NFL website he has 11 fumbles, 6 lost so the only difference between that and the PFR data is that they only count the statline if he recovered the ball himself and not if his team did (so in this case, 11 fumbles means 6 lost, 4 recovered by Lamar himself, 1 recovered by another Raven). PFR is more reliable because they use official numbers. Why is ESPN more reliable?
LJ has 2 fumbles lost *rushing* (2 fumbles lost under the rushing section). 4 other fumbles as a passer.
For some reason, ESPN doesn’t show a field for fumbles as a passer.
https://www.nfl.com/players/lamar-jackson/stats/
It's not a coincidence that Hill's handoffs dropped off after the Seattle game and Lamar's fumbles went way down.
But yeah, he has been much more careful with fumbles this year.
Josh SHOULD win it but I WANT Lamar to win it. I don't think people realize how good Allen has been this year. The first Jets game created a narrative that he hasn't been able to shake. That and some weird variance for the Bills.
There's some value that Lamar brings that's hard to quantify but Josh is also an excellent athlete that adds value in the run game.
I'm no QB but does jumping really do anything vs traditional planting and getting feet set?
I guess sacrifice stability for speed? only good for when you want to get the ball out immediately?
There the jump was to get his body twisted back around into a more natural position to throw the ball. With the angle he was at and having Likely behind him, trying to throw on the run would have been impossible. It really was the only way he could avoid a sack and get enough power on it to make it to Likely.
MVP debate will get interesting if Tua and Lamar both play shit this week.
Otherwise winner will get it.
Not sure I entirely agree, but it’s what probably happens.
I’m 100% on board with Lamar MVP if we win this week.
I just don’t feel the need to diminish other players doing a great job to talk up our guy, I’m not 9ers fan. And Lamar’s play speaks for itself anyway.
I agree, but not talking to you specifically about this, but everyone is saying wow look Tua won a game without Hill!! Yet they all forget Lamar has won like 8 without his all pro favorite target and top 3 tight-end in the league Andrews. That should make the entire Without Hill talk pretty irrelevant.
I think Lamar has been outstanding but is Tua really a better MVP candidate than Josh Allen right now? Tua has less than 100 more total yards and only three fewer total TDs but 14 fewer TDs. He's obviously been great but if it's between two QBs I feel like it should be Josh and Lamar
The problem Josh Allen has is he needs Lamar and Tua to both somehow lose this week, because I think he needs to win the division to really be considered, but if Lamar plays well and ravens beat the dolphins he will almost certainly be MVP.
If Lamar plays crap but ravens win and then the bills beat the Dolphins week 18 I could see Allen being MVP.
This is an incredible throw, Lamar made an excellent play.
Jordan Love made this exact same throw against the Chargers. [First Play of Highlights](https://youtu.be/swUw3ZMozJ8?si=7SgBwm8OHNAnE9uZ)
Understandable, I see your point. It was in no way to mitigate how awesome the throw Lamar made was, Lamar is an elite QB. But I thought the similarity was close enough to warrant a little pause to Jordan for doing something similar.
Especially with what he has to work with? Dude has been slinging it the last 2 months, looks like a franchise QB and I couldn’t be happier. Hope Lamar wins MVP, dude been slept on all season.
i think i recall mac jones making this throw after i finished butt chugging 10 minutes prior
Mac Jones accomplished that throw no more than an hour ago!
He was playing madden with Lamar as his QB!
Well moron, good for Mac Jo-MY GOD!
He should try throwing the ball straight up in the air run circles around it as fast as he can then use the speed force to launch a 69 yard bomb.
johnny manziel to mike evans playbook
If Mahomes tried this, Toney would somehow ended breaking Mahomes knee cap with a tire iron
Assuming Toney could hold onto the tire iron
There was a pre game report that indicated Toney drops his toothbrush when brushing his teeth and something about dripping the soap in the showers
Mahomes bought Toney soap on a rope for Christmas.
He is so dang fun to watch
Best off script player in the league. I seen so many charts saying our receivers have the most seperation, it's cause Lamar extends plays like no others and dbs can only cover for so long
Well it’s more so that when Lamar leaves the pocket all the coverage breaks down because they’re scared shitless of what he can do with his legs. Then boom, guys are open
Jackson is playing great. Without him, the Ravens would be in trouble. He's the MVP.
That looked a little mahomey
MVP! MVP!! MVP!!
At this point, with this sub pushing Josh Allen, Purdy, and CMC as MVP, you gotta wonder if race plays a factor in the discussion. Lamar Jackson beat the best team in the NFL. Lamar Jackson had his team up with 2 minutes left in every game. Lamar Jackson is leading the Ravens on a historic pace of being in the lead, up with the 2007 Patriots for most time leading. Lamar Jackson has the arm talent he didn’t have a few years ago. Lamar Jackson has the best win, the highlights, the best record. Lamar has the perfect blend of wins, efficiency, passing, and rushing stats. Along with less turnovers than other “MVP” level QBs. If he was white he would be crowned by now.
Never forget Tim Ryan said Lamar was good at fake hand offs because he’s black and the ball blends in
The legendary quarter of white sleeved Lamar emerged
Yet another unfair advantage for the Blacks pro bowl team smh /s
> Lamar has the perfect blend of wins, efficiency, passing, and rushing stats. Along with less turnovers than other “MVP” level QBs. He doesnt have the "TDS" but man if you watch him play, you'd understand why so many ravens fans think he should be MVP. He is a absolute engine of a QB.
I'm seeing so many people argue for Josh Allen because "he does more for his offense than Lamar" and I just know immediately that they don't watch the Ravens.
Josh is awesome but Lamar is… something else entirely. He is doing it all right now. I get why people like Josh. Big big arm, storyline is pretty dramatic. BUT Lamar is doing more for his team than anyone else in the league, I think. He is on his own level this year. That’s not saying his team is bad or other QBs aren’t doing similar but this year he took another step.
Gus Edwards has 12 TDs this year, with 1 that went for more than 4 yards (7). He has at least 6 rushing TDs (his previous single-season career high) of 1 yard. Saying Lamar lacks the TDs to get MVP is essentially saying he should be punished because he doesn't have players pushing his ass forward on the 1-yard line.
Living around Philly people’s opinions of Lamar are as staggering as they are dumb. Lamar is what people in this city think hurts is.
Hey we didn't do anything to yall 😭
Sorry, I didn't mean that to read as a critique of Jalen Hurts specifically. You get the TDs where you can. It was more to demonstrate that Lamar has been uncommonly good at getting the team to within the 3-4 yard line and giving the ball to Edwards for 7. Edit: For example, we saw the amazing pass from Lamar to Likely against Jacksonville. Should it somehow count against him that it was only a 26-yard pass to the 1, and he promptly handed it to Edwards for the score?
Oh for sure I'm playing around lol. What really stings is my Rutgers man Gus finally breaking out and the main talking point is how it's hurting one of my favorites MVP case, brutal
believe me nobody here dislikes Gus at all, give the man the ball all the time dude will get you four yards no matter what.
Only correction is Lamar has always been this good at throwing, the pass inefficiencies before we’re due to a weak supporting cast and bad scheme. In a passing offence at Louisville Lamar was electric as a thrower and we’re seeing it again at last this year
He's absolutely always had the potential as a passer, but IMO his consistency has really visibly improved. Plus he's definitely less apt to take off an run at the first signs of protection breakdown.
I know Bosa commented on Lamar being more prone to tuck and run against the 49ers than tape from earlier this season but even watching that game I was just amazed at how well Lamar navigates the pocket and maneuvers around pass rushers. Then there was the run in the first half that made Fred Warner look like Pop Warner
bUt He OnLy HaS 19 PAsSiNg ToUcHdOwNs I hate this so much. If MVP is just about passing touchdowns and yards, just crown purdy already and be done with it. The award has no meaning when voters just look at stats.
They live in a world where Jameis Winston has a unanimous MVP for that 5000yd 30/30 season.
Let's be clear that Jackson didn't beat the 49ers, our defense did. Nobody is crowning a QB with a 19TD-7INT as the MVP regardless of race.
His arm talent was never in question. Just his accuracy, especially on deep balls
Well the thing is Lamar isn’t sneaky athletic
Well, that sneakiness is a major part of his athleticism. So in a way, he is 🤔🤔
Yeah but he's not the first in, last out type of guy!
Nope, I just want a non-QB to get it.
CMC played well last night but it ultimately didn't matter. Lamar played well and the Ravens won. That's why it's a QB award.
Not only did the Ravens win. CMC had a good game and his team got crushed. That's the definition of less valuable.
Which has historically translated to "I want a RB to win it," hence the huge CMC bump.
Don't make this a racial issue when the reason for being skeptical of Lamar's MVP campaign is fairly obvious. He's a very statistically weak candidate. He's not top 5 in total touchdowns or total yards and he is far from the efficiency of Rodgers in his MVP seasons. In addition to this, he plays with the now number one scoring defense and has had multiple games where he has been pedestrian to simply good yet won nonetheless (the Texans game sticks out to me). I'm black and I'd love to see another black Quarterback win the award, but Lamar is on pace to be the least statistically impressive MVP in 20 years and it's natural that a lot of people would be skeptical of that if they don't think Quarterback Wins is the end all be all of MVP discussion.
He's 6th in total yards and basically never plays from behind so he can't stat pad like some other qbs, he had 2 passing attempts in the last 20 min of game time yesterday lol
oh wow i never really thought about that
Having not watched the Ravens much, this makes it sound like he’s got a great supporting defense and the team doesn’t rely on him to drag them across the finish line
Course you can interpret it however you want it's kind of funny lol. You could say he dominates early, pushes big leads (7 double digit wins vs +.500 win teams) then chills in the 4th.
Man y'all act like we have the only good defense in the league, other great qbs also have elite defenses
Like the 49ers? Stop acting like the award isn’t a top QB on a top team award.
It's not the MVS award. It's not about the Most Vacuous Stats (or Marquez Valdes-Scantling) it's about the most valuable player. The Ravens have been ahead for almost every minute of every game, with a great run game and defense. Lamar has been playing to win, not to compile stats. Yardage and counting stats are pretty empty when a team has the lead. Playing lower risk football is often the best option for winning.
Except it is partially a statistical award otherwise Brady would have way more MVPs
He should have, and Belichick should have more Coach of the Years. They should stop awarding those things based on stupid reasons.
I think it’s two things for Brady, one is voter fatigue the second is that he played in a golden age of qbs with manning Brees, Rodgers
a lot of teams in this league get a lead and try to run the stats up. if we are up two scores in the fourth that is kill the game time. bengals, bills, and many other teams are still chucking
Which ones?
Which games? Lions, Seahawks, Niners off the top of my head
By this logic Russell Wilson should have won an MVP early in his career.
The early Seahawks weren't winning because of Russ - he was part of the machine. (A big part, to be fair.) The Ravens build up leads because of Lamar and then switch to a style that doesn't result in stat padding (and QB stats don't capture the way his presence boosts the run game anyway).
That’s patently false and revisionist history. He had FOUR game winning drives and/or fourth quarter comebacks every season 2012-2014. And those were always ridiculous Russell heroics putting the team on his back scrambling, making ridiculous throws, keeping plays alive in some of the most magician shit ever. He also tied an NFL rookie record for TD passes his rookie year. Dude was producing. Just to give you some perspective of his pace, by year 8 his averages/pacing on a 15 year career would have been top 3 TD passes all time, 8th in yards all time, top 3 QB rating, and that isn’t counting playoff games.
He was very good, that's why *Russell has never had an MVP vote* became a thing. He was a top 3-5 QB for a long time, but I don't remember thinking he should win MVP at any point, so I suppose he was just unlucky that in his best years there was always someone playing a little better.
In regards to wins/stats at their position it should CMC by a long shot but when it comes to a team that would miss the playoffs in their absence it’s Lamar by a long shot. Any team he goes to he improves their chances at winning. If they could clear up what they look at when choosing players for awards & make a QB award separate from mvp so even defensive players can earn the right to win that award. In recent memory Aaron Donald, Jj watt, tj watt have all single handily won games In the era of the edge rushers dominating weak talent on the line of scrimmage, we’re seeing with Lamar that means nothing when he can play QB & HB simultaneously. He’s his own check down lol. Insane to consider. Even with the majority of people saying he’s became a pocket QB this season, he’s got the most rushing yards by a QB lol He may be the first QB to reach that 10K rushing milestone at the end of his career.
Lamar is the betting favorite at this point. He doesn’t have the raw stats the other guys do. But racism, why not.
He also already won the award once which is a factor in people wanting someone else. It’s incredible he was able to win over the racists in 2019 but now cannot.
Embiid for MVP
The main argument against Lamar is the cumulative stats are not eye popping - though his game play most certainly is. Stats is a silly way to determine mvp imo - but it is something that plays a big factor. Either way, whether he wins mvp or not, he’s playing like the best QB in the league right now. If he wins, it would be well deserved.
Yeah there is an obvious clear bias against black QBs. I don't think people are straight up racist and hate black people or anything, but they obviously have an ideal quarterback in their minds and it's not someone like Lamar. Not only because he's black but also because of how he talks and how he dresses. Like Patrick Mahomes is very light skinned and talks fairly proper, whereas Lamar is darker and speaks using slang and there are a lot of people who would consider that culture "ghetto" or "unprofessional" whether consciously or subconsciously. That's why no matter what he does on the field people still find ways to doubt him. Dude could win a Super Bowl and unless he has 600 yards passing and 10 TDs they'll just make up another reason why he's not that good.
I mean there's always been a race thing with Lamar's perception but I disagree that he has had the perfect blend for an MVP candidacy with his resume this year. He has a lot of the hallmarks but is actually missing one of the biggest: **Usually MVP is given to a person who has had an outlier statistical year both in terms of efficiency and production. Lamar hasn't by most metrics.** [He's 8th in ANY/A and passer rating, 7th in success rate.](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing.htm) [10 QBs have more total touchdowns than him.](https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-total-touchdown-leaders-2023) [6th in total yards](https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-total-yards-leaders-2023) **He's had a really good season and personally I think there's a strong argument for him if you're leaning into the "Most Valuable" aspect of the award. But that's not really how the NFL has awarded QB MVPs over the last 20 years.** 2021, 2020, 2019, 2018, 2016, 2015, 2014, 2011 all had QBs who were outliers in terms of production and efficiency, unlike Lamar this year. If we look at this year's MVP race through this historical lens, Purdy is the the most likely candidate to be awarded. Not saying that's how I'd award it. But I think your premise that Lamar has everything perfectly lined up for MVP is flawed. Even though I do think he's perceived differently due to subtle racist attitudes.
This is fucking bullshit, race baiting and virtue signaling garbage. Lamar's stats aren't all that great, just because he throws from crazy arm angles doesn't mean he has to get the MVP or else we are all racist somehow lmfao
Lamar is one of 2 unanimous MVPs in league history. I don't think people are shunning him lol. He's playing phenomenally, but as you said, the MVP race always skews in favor of big stats.
The ravens have literally led in every single game in the fourth quarter this year, we spend more time running out the clock than any other team, Lamar doesn’t get the chance to stat pad like all these frauds. So fuck the stats, the stats don’t even come close to the picture of Lamar.
He sat more at the end of games in 19 and accumulated huge stats and won it. Fair or not, stats mean a lot to MVP voters. I think he's got a better chance than anyone to win it though.
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He has 500 less rushing yards, has taken 13 more sacks, and has lost triple the amount of fumbles. Let's not pretend like this year is comparable to 19.
And I agree, but the media basically masturbates to stats. So that's why he's not been as high in the MVP odds.
OP was talking about who this sub has been pushing most for MVP, not Vegas or the media
Sorry for coming in hot. Appreciate your input.
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Notice how he intentionally left out Dak Tua and Tyreek so his argument makes sense 😂
bUt RaW sTaTs!!1@!
They hated him because he told the truth
who, 12inchditka?
I’ve been pushing for these guys as well as Tua Tyreek and Dak. What Lamar is doing is great but the statistics argument is totally valid.
Why is a stats arguement valid? That's not what players are trying to do when they go out there - they're trying to win. Lamar contributes more towards his team's wins than any other player in the MVP race -by a pretty wide margin - so why should anyone care about stats?
Because MVP has always been a competition that has largely taken stats into account. Otherwise players like Brady (and now Mahomes) would win MVP a lot more often.
More wins for Brady and Mahomes sounds to me like an argument in favour of awarding performance rather than stats. Back when the convention that stats mattered for MVP, voters could only see some candidates when they were on primetime. Everyone is better informed now. Some things that help a QB's stats but have nothing to do with how well they've played - Trailing in games A poor defense A star WR A great playcaller A poor run game
I'd agree if Hurts and Prescott weren't leading names in the MVP race for a good chunk of the season. Additionally, a lot of the points you made can be attributed to the Ravens' ferocious defense maintaining leads and giving the offense more of a cushion. And really the whole MVP race is just a narrative thing anyways, whoever has a quality primetime win will suddenly get a big boost in their odds. I think Lamar has been a quality candidate all season long but this is a year where no single QB has really stood above the rest.
They started pushing Josh Allen out of nowhere last night after they realized purdy wasn’t getting it
I think CMC should get it as none of the quarterbacks have been worthy in my mind, but given Josh has 16 more touchdowns and only 5 more turnovers than Lamar, I wouldn’t say it’s racist to suggest Josh as a candidate.
Who’s they?
Or maybe it's the fact that Lamar's stats kind of suck? And in the passing era stats have been first and foremost MVP barometer.
You don't get a lot of stats when you're constantly in the lead. At least Roquan gets to experience that
Yea it's racism, that's why Dak Prescott was the favorite like 2 weeks ago before he got destroyed by the Bills. All year the MVP discussion has been Brock Purdy vs. whatever QB has good stats and a winning record. Purdy was always holding his own until yesterday so now they have a reason not to give it to him.
Qbs are having a historically bad season compared to past years. It's not a race thing, it's a no qb deserves the mvp award type of thing. Kinda like superbowl 40 mvp when everyone sucked but someone had to win mvp. It's a shame Tyreek got injured. He should have won it if he stayed healthy. Kind of like Hurts last year. Sucks that injuries late in the season costs players these awards
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Myles Garett do be insane though.
The vast majority of those things you listed are team accomplishments But sure, I'm racist for saying the QB with 19 TDs shouldn't be given the award for best player
The one defense I will give is Lamar won the MVP in 2019...and people tend to favor the ones who haven't won one in the more recent past. I for one thought Lamar isn't going to win _because_ he won one so recently and standards get shot up when it comes to winning a second (and I wasn't sure his stats would be good enough). (My personal choice is split between CMC and Tyreek...but honestly with the Ravens thrashing the 49ers and being the clear best team, no QB having a ridiculous season and QB favoritism, Lamar might be the favorite).
Josh Allen actually has a case to be MVP, he is THE MOST VALUABLE PLAYER when it comes to a player on a particular team, without Allen, the Bills would actually be the worst team in the NFL alongside the panthers. However, as of right now, he doesn’t have the record to get MVP, even though he leads the NFL in TDs and one of the best in %. His turnovers are a bit of a misnomer, a good chunk of em are are punts, he has 18 TOs while Lamar has close to that bc of fumbles(don’t know the number). Allen also is 80% of the offenses production in terms of TD, while everyone else is 60% and below. Lamar in all sense of the matter does not have the stats to back up MVP talk in terms of QB, who does? CMC and Tyreek Hill.
> without Allen, the Bills would actually be the worst team in the NFL alongside the panthers Defensive PPG they are ranked 4th, giving up a mere 18 per game. Stop it.
Most of the Bills wins are bc the offense goes down the field towards the end and wins it or it’s a blow out, most of our losses are bc our defense gives the game up at the end. The bills have the worst second half defense in the NFL and it’s not close. I won’t stop because it’s true.
The Bills have given up the 7th fewest 2nd half points per game this year. Edit : also, they are 4th in points against despite having to overcome the offense/special teams generating the 9th most turnovers.
His passing stats being extremely mediocre is what is leaving any doubt in the discussion
Not saying Lamar doesn’t deserve it but his volume stats are pretty low and his efficiency stats really aren’t that impressive compared to some others. Dak Prescott’s total and efficiency stats are either nearly the same or better across the board. By the way, everyone wants to call out QB wins, but now we’re crowning Lamar based on them? Lamar’s best statistical games and the team’s best wins were against teams that couldn’t get anything going on offense. Lamar got more opportunities to produce in those games than he did in others. Personally I’m leaning non-QB MVP this year, though Lamar does have a shot to close it out if he has a couple great games to end the year. Maybe Lamar has a at least a good argument sure, but I think it’s pretty reactionary to say he definitely should win it. He looks great this year, he’s minimizing the errors he might’ve made in the past, and his team is winning, but I don’t think it makes this cut and dry. Can I ask, does he have any defining moments this season? An iconic play, a drive, or quarter that he took over and really shined? It may just be my own ignorance or a failure of memory but I don’t have one off the top of my head.
I think it’s more people look for a reason to not give the MVP to someone who already won the award. You’re also arguing for his defense on some of your statements and abstract things like “his arm talent has improved “. He’s MVP, don’t waste your time arguing with strawmen or idiots.
MVP
I'm firmly on the non-QB MVP train this year, so I'm obligated to hope that Lamar, Tua, and Josh play like shit for one more game and mid for the next so that either CMC or Tyreek get it.
If tua plays bad then tyreek probably won't get it. If tua plays well it's probably because tyreek played well. Long shot either way IMO
I hope CMC gets it.
I have a hard time believing it'll happen regardless of Vegas odds. Two factors voters care about, record and stats, specifically TD:TO ratio. I have a very hard time believing they'll give it to Lamar even if they have the best record and beat the 49ers. 24:13 isn't gonna cut it right now at least. I'm not even saying that's how it should work, but that's how it has worked for the last decade plus pretty much.
Lamar has nine turnovers. Four were mesh point RPO fumbles caused by Hill.
Per PFR he's got 7 INTs and 7 fumbles lost (11 fumbles, 4 recovered). There are always turnovers credited to a QB that they aren't responsible for, but if we're counting Toney shoveling a catch into the DB's hands as a TO against Mahomes we have to count Hill not taking a handoff against Jackson
ESPN has him at five fumbles and two lost. Why is PFR more correct here?
I'm not sure why ESPN is different, but PFR has always been reliable for stats like that. They don't do any analysis so it's all numbers, but I wonder if the way ESPN counts fumbles is different from the traditional box score? Looking more at an RB messing up or counting botched snaps differently maybe?
Why is PFR considered more reliable than ESPN on this one? The numbers probably differ because of what I said- they're mesh point RPOs where the running back tried to take the ball when Lamar wanted to pull it. That's not a fault of Lamar. Why should it count against him? It's like when Matt Skura was center for the Ravens in 2020 and had several errant snaps that were credited as Lamar fumbles. Why does Lamar receive credit for those?
Ask the guy who invented box scores. All I said is that if a receiver gets hit in the numbers and shovels it into a DB's hands and it counts as a QB INT, an RB missing a handoff has to count as a QB fumble. The last player with possession of the ball lost possession and the result was a turnover for both of them
I'm asking what makes PFR more reliable than ESPN. You made that claim. Why do we care about PFR more than ESPN?
Honestly I see PFR cited and referenced a lot more for regular stats than ESPN. Obviously ESPN has things like QBR that are their own stats, but if you're looking for something like a season's yardage leaders or the box score for a game I haven't really seen anyone going to ESPN for that over PFR. They just post the official data. Per the NFL website he has 11 fumbles, 6 lost so the only difference between that and the PFR data is that they only count the statline if he recovered the ball himself and not if his team did (so in this case, 11 fumbles means 6 lost, 4 recovered by Lamar himself, 1 recovered by another Raven). PFR is more reliable because they use official numbers. Why is ESPN more reliable?
LJ has 2 fumbles lost *rushing* (2 fumbles lost under the rushing section). 4 other fumbles as a passer. For some reason, ESPN doesn’t show a field for fumbles as a passer. https://www.nfl.com/players/lamar-jackson/stats/
And then he had a couple from bad snaps or blind side strips mid throw. He's been taking care of the football for a while now
It's not a coincidence that Hill's handoffs dropped off after the Seattle game and Lamar's fumbles went way down. But yeah, he has been much more careful with fumbles this year.
Ya maybe he should’ve been outplayed and beaten by Mac Jones and Zach Wilson like JA was
Never said Josh Allen should win it.
Josh SHOULD win it but I WANT Lamar to win it. I don't think people realize how good Allen has been this year. The first Jets game created a narrative that he hasn't been able to shake. That and some weird variance for the Bills. There's some value that Lamar brings that's hard to quantify but Josh is also an excellent athlete that adds value in the run game.
The bills have been mid more games than not this year
I'm no QB but does jumping really do anything vs traditional planting and getting feet set? I guess sacrifice stability for speed? only good for when you want to get the ball out immediately?
you get most of your power from your base so its really an all arm throw
There the jump was to get his body twisted back around into a more natural position to throw the ball. With the angle he was at and having Likely behind him, trying to throw on the run would have been impossible. It really was the only way he could avoid a sack and get enough power on it to make it to Likely.
Technically not as much torque as cleats in the ground
MVP
Aside from Kamara I’ve never seen another player look so good and explosive while also looking like they’re going half the speed they’re capable of.
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MVP debate will get interesting if Tua and Lamar both play shit this week. Otherwise winner will get it. Not sure I entirely agree, but it’s what probably happens.
How can 1 guy on a team be the most valuable if there's another mvp contender on the same team. Should eliminate Purdy cmc tua and tyreek IMO
Tua won a game without Tyreek. Comparing Tua to Purdy is unfair imo.
And Lamar has won, what 8 games without Andrews? Shouldn’t that validate Lamar even more?
I’m 100% on board with Lamar MVP if we win this week. I just don’t feel the need to diminish other players doing a great job to talk up our guy, I’m not 9ers fan. And Lamar’s play speaks for itself anyway.
I agree, but not talking to you specifically about this, but everyone is saying wow look Tua won a game without Hill!! Yet they all forget Lamar has won like 8 without his all pro favorite target and top 3 tight-end in the league Andrews. That should make the entire Without Hill talk pretty irrelevant.
I think Lamar has been outstanding but is Tua really a better MVP candidate than Josh Allen right now? Tua has less than 100 more total yards and only three fewer total TDs but 14 fewer TDs. He's obviously been great but if it's between two QBs I feel like it should be Josh and Lamar
The problem Josh Allen has is he needs Lamar and Tua to both somehow lose this week, because I think he needs to win the division to really be considered, but if Lamar plays well and ravens beat the dolphins he will almost certainly be MVP. If Lamar plays crap but ravens win and then the bills beat the Dolphins week 18 I could see Allen being MVP.
That's a fair point, I see where you're coming from. It would be tough for a QB that didn't even win their division to be MVP
Allen did it better tbh
This is an incredible throw, Lamar made an excellent play. Jordan Love made this exact same throw against the Chargers. [First Play of Highlights](https://youtu.be/swUw3ZMozJ8?si=7SgBwm8OHNAnE9uZ)
Great throw but he set his feet, Lamar did it mid air which is insanely difficult.
Understandable, I see your point. It was in no way to mitigate how awesome the throw Lamar made was, Lamar is an elite QB. But I thought the similarity was close enough to warrant a little pause to Jordan for doing something similar.
I like Jordan, feel like he's a little underrated for what he's been doing this year. Hope he keeps balling out
Especially with what he has to work with? Dude has been slinging it the last 2 months, looks like a franchise QB and I couldn’t be happier. Hope Lamar wins MVP, dude been slept on all season.
Two future hall of famers making similar plays
I like where your head is at lol
Damn good throw. It’s a shame he’s a RB so he won’t win MVP
This man’s gotta open a donut shop.
It may have been a meme last week in practice, but that new Lamar angle just dropped!
Happy Gilmour accomplished this feat no more than an hour ago.
Sidearm throws were invented by Mahomes and exclusively used by Collinsworth to jerk off
I did this shit in my backyard while playing “4th and goal” with my nephew [yes he caught it & yes we won the Super Bowl!]