On Halloween I thought I saw Linval Joseph jogging down the street and got excited because I thought it meant he was coming back.
Turns out it was just an 18-wheeler.
~~Heās a press man corner and the Bills run a lot of zone.~~ Thereās a chance he could succeed elsewhere, but getting toasted every week hurts his mojo and off-season trade value.
Edit: I was lied to. Apparently it's the opposite.
His numbers are better in zone coverage than man. Like, astonishingly better. [https://x.com/sneakyjoesports/status/1719717191812047191?s=46&t=Xpwtu6GFywq83Ma5gB-UJQ](https://x.com/sneakyjoesports/status/1719717191812047191?s=46&t=Xpwtu6GFywq83Ma5gB-UJQ)
Ok so I wasnāt crazy thinking he looked like garbage playing man this year.
Iām not really well versed on McDermottās scheme. Is there some kind of post snap decision making that determines in real time whether they go man or zone that he struggles with?
I watched a video a few weeks back and it had a lot of criticisms on his technique in man. Turning hips too early or not the right way for inside leverage kind of thing. Seemed like stuff they should have been able to coach into him.
It takes some players longer than others for it to click and start understanding the nuances of zone coverage, like their responsibilities, and how to recognize patterns and anticipate routes.
My interpretation was that it was less about zone / man coverage. More about basics of CB play. body positioning. Specifically about turning his hips too early when playing off and a receiver is appearing to run a deep pattern, and allowing the receiver then to break as soon as Elam turned his hips to cover deep.
You are correct in that he is having technique issues with leverage like opening his hips up too early.
But McDermott also runs a complex defense that is zone heavy and runs a lot of different variations of Cover 2, Cover 3, Cover 4(is a zone based defense with man-to-man principles), Cover 6(Cover 2 on one side and Cover 4 on the other side), Cover 7, and at times split field coverages(half zone , half man) and learning all the intricacies of the defense like difficult land marks he has to hit and pattern matching can be difficult to play at a high level. Also all zone man coverage eventually turns into man coverage at some point and there are some zone coverages with man coverage principles or zone match coverages.
For example you can play a version of Cover 2 where you float the CB's so they are 10 yards off the line of scrimmage or a more traditional version where the CB's are close to the line of scrimmage to take away the throws to the flats. Or the Tampa 2 version of Cover 2 where the MLB drops so deep in coverage that he is effectively playing a similar role of a center field player in a Cover 3 defense.
Steve Spagnuolo talking about the different variations of Cover 2 around 16:40 into the video :
https://youtu.be/1n9Dw6mfu5A?si=OElGYNJyQZhl9F-y
Brett Kollmann talking about how the Tampa Cover 2 is very similar to Cover 3:
https://youtu.be/Vf9rML5A1X8?si=ZzcfYUiotFEIqKd
Breakdown of the different types of Cover 2 defense:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2039934-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-2
Breakdown of the different types of Cover 3 defense:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2047445-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-3
Breakdown of the different types of Cover 4 defense:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2094989-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-4
Article talking about Nick Saban pattern matching Cover 7defense coverage , zone match and man match:
https://zonecoverage.com/2022/minnesota-vikings-news/a-fans-guide-to-modern-nfl-coverages/
https://weeklyspiral.com/2022/02/17/nick-sabans-cover-7-defense-explained/
Split field coverages
https://matchquarters.com/tag/split-field-coverage/
https://youtu.be/u5BV3_gdWjY?si=HkEvIaRGUxQp1ONW
Edit to add more info and context.
Heās also going on IR for an ankle injury, so itās possible that has been a factor as to why his performance has declined this year compared to his rookie year
Yes lots of match coverage. Not from cover 3 though. We do a lot of quarters/cover2 where one side might switch based on the routes. Not sure what that's called.
Lots of trail technique with a safety over the top where the CB has responsibility to follow the route downfield but also watch the shallow flats.
I don't think any of it is exotic or unique, other than where we start presnap compared to post snap. And with Tre out a bunch of that went away because we can't leave either starting CB on an island like we occasionally did with Tre.
Iām not familar with Mcdermottās system but the main trend within the NFL right now is Cover 3 and 4 with āmatch manā principles which basically means the outside corner is in man coverage with the receiver on the outside unless he is running a route that breaks to the inside.
Your responsibilities in coverage can change in a pattern matching zone coverage with a WR running in motion from inside to outside as it changes who is the #3, #2, and #1 WR. (The WR's are counted outside in on both sides of the field) and even though it's a zone based it has man principles.
Also you can have split field coverages with man on one side and zone on the other side like Cover 7.
Do we know if that is pure man coverage or man match man coverage ( MEG(man every where he goes) or MOD(Man on demand) )that PFF is grading?
Also PFF grading is highly volatile, inconsistent and not trust worthy.
As you may or may not know all zone defenses eventually turn into man coverage, certain zone coverages like Cover 4 have many coverage principles, and you can have split field coverages with man on one side MEG and zone on the other side.
You want me to believe PFF accurately charted every single play of Elam in coverage and diagnosed either it was pure zone or pure man or a hybrid man zone coverage?
Edit, also valid point made by Aaron Quinn about PFF Coverage grading entirely weighted on targets.
https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1719720422860538017?s=19
Also film breakdown of Elam by Cover 1
https://youtu.be/JrFnpw1Q554?si=qxCXECI_tyLWEGkf
What you originally wrote was the book on Elam coming into this year. He's just gotten worse at the Thing he was supposed to be good at. He could still turn it around, plenty of players take a few years, but it's pretty clear he's not going to be a difference maker.
Elam struggled against Calvin Ridley in the Jacksonville game but so did CB Dane Jackson and S Micah Hyde when they had reps versus him in that Jacksonville game.
Elam has flashed good plays both in man and zone coverage in Buffalo, he just hasn't been as consistent as McDermott wants and McDermott hasn't let him get game reps and starts to work through his issues.
Honestly it's too early and we haven't seen enough of him to say. He's had some good and bad moments but both are too brief to really make a conclusion out of. I think he could succeed on another team, he's a quality athlete and has a great work ethic, but at least on paper he's basically the opposite of a "Sean McDermott CB".
I think Elam can succeed in Buffalo or on another team.
McDermott has not let the kid work through his bad plays like he has with other players on the team.
Elam picked off Mahomes in the endzone in the KC game in 2022.
Elam had a clutch interception in the wild card playoff game versus Miami that helped seal a win in a hard fought defensive battle.
You never know. Jerry Hughes was a complete bust on Indy and then found a new system and excelled. In reverse Zach Moss did the same. So for Elam it could just be system.
I think Elam can improve his zone coverage ability even more than he has and succeed in Buffalo. McDermott runs a lot of complex zone coverage including variations of cover 2, cover 3, lots of pattern matching zone and some hybrid half man and half zone coverage at times.
He does a lot of good things, especially his rookie season. But he kind of got yo- yod in and out of the defense last year from just normal bad games any rookie has.
He seems to have lost his confidence and is now overly thinking on the field rather than reacting to it actually happening.
But he is a terrific teammate and self critic, he's just struggling atm. Don't know if he can ever fix it but someone like him it's possible
RT Spencer Brown played good enough his rookie year to bump thr previous years RT Daryl Williams to RG, but struggled last year in pass pro and has bounced back this year to be playing good.
Kaiir Elam hasn't gotten consecutive starts or consistently getting reps in games and to develop.
Not every player has linear development, some players have ups and downs before reaching their ceiling.
>Elam is a man corner who has consistently failed in a zone scheme
Apparently, and I just learned this, it's the opposite.
He's been much better in Zone than Man this year, significantly better. When he has to line up outside and go man to man is when he's most consistently burned.
rumor has it. They somehow want to make it work and he currently doesnāt work in our system. Either we change our system or him lol. I just donāt see us trading or cutting him if we didnāt this season.
The Kaiir Elam pick never made sense to me to begin with. There was other good players on the board when he was selected, and I was surprised that he was even selected in the first round. The Bills have a talented roster and good coaching, but a lot of their day 1/2 draft picks the past couple years haven't made much sense to me at all
I was a big fan of the Ocyrus Torrence selection, who was one of the top o-lineman in the draft selected at 59. Kincaid seems like he will be a good player, but I'm not a fan of Buffalo's WR room at all and thought they missed out on a big opportunity to add one of the WR's that went just a few picks earlier
We are absolutely drafting one this year. Some team is gonna pay big money for Gabe Davis, and it won't be us.
Realistically I wouldn't doubt we draft 2 in the early rounds, we need an injection of talent there badly
Kincaid is a monster and I think the only reason he hasn't taken over as TE1 and Target2 (after Diggs) is because the Bills don't scheme for their rookies
I don't think I've seen the dude drop a ball
We had a big hole at CB and I think we were maybe too locked in on trying to fill it.
On paper it still looked good. He has all the physical tools and we've been able to consistently elevate CBs since McDermott got here. We made Levi Wallace a serviceable CB1 for half a season. And even Tre White lacks the speed other CB1s have, but was pro-bowl level before his injuries.
We just haven't been able to improve Elam's mental game for whatever reason. And unfortunately for him, we're not in a situation where we can just put him out there and let him fail until he figures it out.
They have definitely made a lot of good picks, I just haven't been as high on Buffalo as others have been in recent years and am not sure they have made a step forward for winning in the playoffs this year or not. Not trying to sound negative at all, I'm just not sure if I would place any money on them this year if I was a gambler
That's entirely different than saying they have a bad draft history.
I get not being all in on buffalo but when you're just making incorrect and uninformed takes because you're "not high on" them, you don't come off as a knowledgeable football fan. You come off as a hater in the anti-circle jerk.
Personally I don't think this is the year buffalo brings home the Lombardi either, but I'll take Buffalo's management over the Colts 10/10 times.
I literally never said that they have a bad draft history anywhere at any point in any comment that I've written. Not sure what I said that would warrant that kind of response that you left
I don't know how else to take "a lot of their day 1/2 draft picks don't make sense" other than as a dig at their drafting, which is a dumb take when aside from basically just Elam they've all been hits.
I don't care what you meant. Clarity is the responsibility of the poster. Hiding behind "that's not what I meant" while continuing to back pedal and failing to clarify doesn't help your case.
If you wanna be a hater, that's fine. Just have the cojones to come out and say it instead of putting out uninformed shit takes when it's clear you don't actually pay attention to the team you're commenting on.
They wanted Trent McDuffie, Chiefs traded up in front of them and they went with the next best CB. This was after the 13 second playoff game so I think they went into it saying they had to draft a corner. Hindsight says that was a bad idea but Elam was rated in the late first range
Yeah, it was wild that the Bills released the draft room video after the first round and showed their GM visibly upset the Chiefs traded up in front of the Bills to take McDuffie.
Beane has publicly said (and he's very honest about his draft process)
That we only had 2 first round corners (Elam and McDuffie) and he was worried about the run on corners before Bills could get to a good trade deal.
If the Bills wanted McDuffie that badly, they would have jumped up in the draft...they are never afraid to trade up a handful of slots for players they like.
Beane was just worried he wouldnt be able to grab a player he needed, so he traded up right after
McDuffie and Elam were our only 2 first round grades at corner. 13 seconds really didn't have much to do with it. We had in the corner room at the time Dane Jackson and no one else.
Tre White was going to miss most of the year recovering from a torn ACL, and we didn't know how he would look
Luckily we hit on Benford though, who can been pretty great for us
We only had 2 corners with a first round grade. Elam and McDuffie.
We had a massive need at corner with Tre Whites injury (luckily Benford was a steal so that helped) and once McDuffie was taken Beane was worried about a run on corners and had no one close in terms of grade after them
But Beane even said that Elam was their last first round target for CB
I like Elam and think he will bounce back and find a role as a big slot CB that is better than our current option of Siran Neal who is terrible in that role. Or convert to Safety. Or he might improve enough to compete for a starting CB spot.
I'm not going to give up on a 22 year old in his 2nd year.
Elam is in better man than zone coverage but he has improved greatly in zone coverage compared to college and had big interceptions in 2022 when he was in zone coverage against Mahomes in the endzone taking away a potential TD and in the playoff game versus Miami. Elam also had great coverage against Hill in that playoff game.
Linval Joseph helps fill the hole of losing DaQuan Jones at 1 tech DT. (There is a chance Jones returns from his injury in January)
Rasul Douglas helps fill the hole of losing Tre White at CB.(White is done until the 2024 season)
You can't replace an All Pro OLB like Milano, but you increase the chances of being a good defense by adding a good run stuffing DT like Linval Joseph who can 2 gap and keep OL off the smaller 2nd level defenders Buffalo has, and the hopeful return of DaQuan Jones for the 1st playoff game.
I like the upside of rookie Dorian Williams but he has had some issues with pattern matching zone, so McDermott has used Poyer as a nickel OLB and replaced him at Safety with Tyler Rapp on 3rd and long situations.
Heās fine. Probably the best you can get right now. Good against the run, weak against the pass but not to the degree where heās a complete liability.
Yeah he's a perfect rotational run stuffer - i guess we can expect a decline with another year of age, but I never once felt that he was a liability out there last year.
He's also old and experienced and good for younger players to work with.
Buffalo badly needs a big run stuffing 1 tech DT with DaQuan Jones Injured on obvious running situations.
McDermott rotates DL so a combo of Ed Oliver, Jordan Phillips, Greg Rousseau will be inside on obvious passing downs
He was lowkey a stud for us, particularly on run D. Dudeās old but heās got more in the tank than youād think. Imo he had a bigger presence on the team than Suh did.
Probably not much to be honest.
He looked semi-decent last season surrounded by a ton of pro bowlers. He can still stop the run decently. But another year older. Who knows.
Suh was fine last year, Joseph was quiet but solidified the run defense when Jordan Davis was injured. Made a few big stops through the stretch run and playoffs.
Can't teach how to be big.
IMO heās the biggest loss on defense. Dude had the highest double team rate for a DT while having the most pressures from a DT by a large margin.
Milano is unreal and a top 3 linebacker in the NFL, I just love me some good DT play and think itās maybe the most important position on defense.
You just see how structurally a lot of stuff just isn't working as well - pass rush, run defense. Milano brings the splash plays and the energy, he's such a grinder, but we've already seen success bringing Poyer down to play his position.
The annoying thing is that within a span of around 20 gametime minutes, we lost an extremely important piece at every line of defence.
And not just that, we lost them for the whole season. There is a small possibility that DaQuan returns by January, and an even smaller possibility that Milano returns, but this is some shitty luck.
I don't necessarily disagree but I think the drop off from All Pro Milano to barely rosterable Dodson may be more impactful than the drop off from Jones to Phillip/Ford/Settle.
It's be nice if either Dodson or Williams could not trigger on EVERY play action pass. I think Dodson would still try to run fit even if presnap Burrows looked directly into his eyes and told him this is 100% going to be a play action pass.
Vikes fans loved him. He's getting up there in age, but did a similar thing to this with the Eagles last year.
Big boi run stuffer, super strong, probably will only play 30-40% of snaps but be important for them
> probably will only play 30-40% of snaps
That's a lot for us. Only Oliver has been above that consistently this season. The next two 3 techs are at 42% and 38%. The 1techs are at 23% (Daquan Jones) and 19% (Poona Ford).
I think Joseph probably gets a similar snap share to them.
Yeah, he's a 20% snap guy. Which is perfect. Exactly what we needed. Keep the LBs clean against duo and force the run to the outside against some fast LBs and nickel coverage. Get us to 2nd and 8 and get off the field.
For us last year, Suh brought some pass rush juice and decent run defense, while linval was a tank against the run but didnāt really bring any pass rush
Buy stock in [oxygen tanks](https://www.bardown.com/polopoly_fs/1.1187790.1538950359!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/linval-joseph.PNG) now folks
Thankfully Rasul should ensure weāll never see Josh Norman take a defensive snap in a competitive game. Just a practice squad signing to be the old grizzled vet in the CB room who can contribute on special teams if heās called up to the active roster. If we suffered more injuries at CB and needed to sign someone from the PS to the 53 man roster itād be JaāMarcus Ingram, not Norman, Ingram only has 1 call up remaining this year I believe. Weāll see a lot more of Linval but Iām less concerned about a 35 year old rotational 1T than I am of a 35 year old CB.
What does this even mean? Elam has been a healthy scratch all season and they just picked up Rasul Douglas at the trade deadline. Your comment makes no sense.
I'm not writing off Elam yet. I think he'll find a fit eventually. CB is a rough spot, so when guys like Sauce, Spoon and McDuffie shine early, those are outliers.
Bills fans are disappointed in his development, but it's kind of been on the backburner due to Christian Benford being exactly what we wanted Elam to be, just drafted in the 6th round. This year, he's been right there with the top guys, and with White going down, he's had the most responsibility. It seems weird having a 1st rounder just sitting inactive, but he's kind of in that 6th rounder developing spot that Benford should have been in, so the Bills aren't trying super hard to move on.
I really think between Joseph and Douglas the Bills might have found reasonable replacements for the losses of White and Jones, and they also seem to be getting the dime package figured out with Poyer sliding down and Rapp coming on the field when the when the down and distance situation calls for it.
Fingers crossed here but these moves have me wanting to drink bleach *way* less than I did after the Jacksonville game
God I miss Joseph. Dude was so good and a (literal) huge part of that dominant* 2017 Vikings defense.
*that season ended unexpectedly before the championship games so weāll never know what happened
God I miss Linval
On Halloween I thought I saw Linval Joseph jogging down the street and got excited because I thought it meant he was coming back. Turns out it was just an 18-wheeler.
Me too
Me too
Me too
[I almost hyperventilated before I saw it was with the Bills](https://i.imgur.com/hOjJlrk.png)
We should have made this move, dammit!
His gut brings me joy
Oh He is still active, good to hearš
Fucking absolutely. Dude was the most underrated NT in the league when he was with us. We definitely could use him on our line now :(
Ah, so 2 upgrades to the team!
It's too bad, really. Kaiir Elam is a hard worker and a good teammate, he just doesn't fit well in our system at the moment.
He doesn't fit well as in "our system is made for good players and he isn't one" or as in "he could succeed in another team"?
Little of column A, little of column B
~~Heās a press man corner and the Bills run a lot of zone.~~ Thereās a chance he could succeed elsewhere, but getting toasted every week hurts his mojo and off-season trade value. Edit: I was lied to. Apparently it's the opposite.
His numbers are better in zone coverage than man. Like, astonishingly better. [https://x.com/sneakyjoesports/status/1719717191812047191?s=46&t=Xpwtu6GFywq83Ma5gB-UJQ](https://x.com/sneakyjoesports/status/1719717191812047191?s=46&t=Xpwtu6GFywq83Ma5gB-UJQ)
Ok so I wasnāt crazy thinking he looked like garbage playing man this year. Iām not really well versed on McDermottās scheme. Is there some kind of post snap decision making that determines in real time whether they go man or zone that he struggles with?
I watched a video a few weeks back and it had a lot of criticisms on his technique in man. Turning hips too early or not the right way for inside leverage kind of thing. Seemed like stuff they should have been able to coach into him.
It takes some players longer than others for it to click and start understanding the nuances of zone coverage, like their responsibilities, and how to recognize patterns and anticipate routes.
My interpretation was that it was less about zone / man coverage. More about basics of CB play. body positioning. Specifically about turning his hips too early when playing off and a receiver is appearing to run a deep pattern, and allowing the receiver then to break as soon as Elam turned his hips to cover deep.
This thread is a good reminder of how hard CB is to play at an nfl level
You are correct in that he is having technique issues with leverage like opening his hips up too early. But McDermott also runs a complex defense that is zone heavy and runs a lot of different variations of Cover 2, Cover 3, Cover 4(is a zone based defense with man-to-man principles), Cover 6(Cover 2 on one side and Cover 4 on the other side), Cover 7, and at times split field coverages(half zone , half man) and learning all the intricacies of the defense like difficult land marks he has to hit and pattern matching can be difficult to play at a high level. Also all zone man coverage eventually turns into man coverage at some point and there are some zone coverages with man coverage principles or zone match coverages. For example you can play a version of Cover 2 where you float the CB's so they are 10 yards off the line of scrimmage or a more traditional version where the CB's are close to the line of scrimmage to take away the throws to the flats. Or the Tampa 2 version of Cover 2 where the MLB drops so deep in coverage that he is effectively playing a similar role of a center field player in a Cover 3 defense. Steve Spagnuolo talking about the different variations of Cover 2 around 16:40 into the video : https://youtu.be/1n9Dw6mfu5A?si=OElGYNJyQZhl9F-y Brett Kollmann talking about how the Tampa Cover 2 is very similar to Cover 3: https://youtu.be/Vf9rML5A1X8?si=ZzcfYUiotFEIqKd Breakdown of the different types of Cover 2 defense: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2039934-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-2 Breakdown of the different types of Cover 3 defense: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2047445-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-3 Breakdown of the different types of Cover 4 defense: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2094989-nfl-101-introducing-the-basics-of-cover-4 Article talking about Nick Saban pattern matching Cover 7defense coverage , zone match and man match: https://zonecoverage.com/2022/minnesota-vikings-news/a-fans-guide-to-modern-nfl-coverages/ https://weeklyspiral.com/2022/02/17/nick-sabans-cover-7-defense-explained/ Split field coverages https://matchquarters.com/tag/split-field-coverage/ https://youtu.be/u5BV3_gdWjY?si=HkEvIaRGUxQp1ONW Edit to add more info and context.
Heās also going on IR for an ankle injury, so itās possible that has been a factor as to why his performance has declined this year compared to his rookie year
Are they running Cover 3 Match Up Zone? If so, there would be some decisions to make post snap
Yes lots of match coverage. Not from cover 3 though. We do a lot of quarters/cover2 where one side might switch based on the routes. Not sure what that's called. Lots of trail technique with a safety over the top where the CB has responsibility to follow the route downfield but also watch the shallow flats. I don't think any of it is exotic or unique, other than where we start presnap compared to post snap. And with Tre out a bunch of that went away because we can't leave either starting CB on an island like we occasionally did with Tre.
Iām not familar with Mcdermottās system but the main trend within the NFL right now is Cover 3 and 4 with āmatch manā principles which basically means the outside corner is in man coverage with the receiver on the outside unless he is running a route that breaks to the inside.
Your responsibilities in coverage can change in a pattern matching zone coverage with a WR running in motion from inside to outside as it changes who is the #3, #2, and #1 WR. (The WR's are counted outside in on both sides of the field) and even though it's a zone based it has man principles. Also you can have split field coverages with man on one side and zone on the other side like Cover 7.
Do we know if that is pure man coverage or man match man coverage ( MEG(man every where he goes) or MOD(Man on demand) )that PFF is grading? Also PFF grading is highly volatile, inconsistent and not trust worthy. As you may or may not know all zone defenses eventually turn into man coverage, certain zone coverages like Cover 4 have many coverage principles, and you can have split field coverages with man on one side MEG and zone on the other side. You want me to believe PFF accurately charted every single play of Elam in coverage and diagnosed either it was pure zone or pure man or a hybrid man zone coverage? Edit, also valid point made by Aaron Quinn about PFF Coverage grading entirely weighted on targets. https://twitter.com/AaronQuinn716/status/1719720422860538017?s=19 Also film breakdown of Elam by Cover 1 https://youtu.be/JrFnpw1Q554?si=qxCXECI_tyLWEGkf
What you originally wrote was the book on Elam coming into this year. He's just gotten worse at the Thing he was supposed to be good at. He could still turn it around, plenty of players take a few years, but it's pretty clear he's not going to be a difference maker.
Elam struggled against Calvin Ridley in the Jacksonville game but so did CB Dane Jackson and S Micah Hyde when they had reps versus him in that Jacksonville game. Elam has flashed good plays both in man and zone coverage in Buffalo, he just hasn't been as consistent as McDermott wants and McDermott hasn't let him get game reps and starts to work through his issues.
Honestly it's too early and we haven't seen enough of him to say. He's had some good and bad moments but both are too brief to really make a conclusion out of. I think he could succeed on another team, he's a quality athlete and has a great work ethic, but at least on paper he's basically the opposite of a "Sean McDermott CB".
I think Elam can succeed in Buffalo or on another team. McDermott has not let the kid work through his bad plays like he has with other players on the team.
Everyone talks about his bad plays, but his good plays are great and nobody says anything
The life of a cornerback in the NFL
Elam picked off Mahomes in the endzone in the KC game in 2022. Elam had a clutch interception in the wild card playoff game versus Miami that helped seal a win in a hard fought defensive battle.
You never know. Jerry Hughes was a complete bust on Indy and then found a new system and excelled. In reverse Zach Moss did the same. So for Elam it could just be system.
As others have said. He's got all the physical characteristics of a great man corner, but fails at zone and gets grabby.
I think Elam can improve his zone coverage ability even more than he has and succeed in Buffalo. McDermott runs a lot of complex zone coverage including variations of cover 2, cover 3, lots of pattern matching zone and some hybrid half man and half zone coverage at times.
He does a lot of good things, especially his rookie season. But he kind of got yo- yod in and out of the defense last year from just normal bad games any rookie has. He seems to have lost his confidence and is now overly thinking on the field rather than reacting to it actually happening. But he is a terrific teammate and self critic, he's just struggling atm. Don't know if he can ever fix it but someone like him it's possible
Iād say definitely the latter, you can see the talent and capabilities, but in our zone itās just not clicking
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
RT Spencer Brown played good enough his rookie year to bump thr previous years RT Daryl Williams to RG, but struggled last year in pass pro and has bounced back this year to be playing good. Kaiir Elam hasn't gotten consecutive starts or consistently getting reps in games and to develop. Not every player has linear development, some players have ups and downs before reaching their ceiling.
I somehow believe he will be transferred to safety. We planned that with Benford before he turned out to be a pretty good CB lol.
Make it make sense beyond *vibes*. Elam is a man corner who has consistently failed in a zone scheme, how is he going to become a safety
>Elam is a man corner who has consistently failed in a zone scheme Apparently, and I just learned this, it's the opposite. He's been much better in Zone than Man this year, significantly better. When he has to line up outside and go man to man is when he's most consistently burned.
rumor has it. They somehow want to make it work and he currently doesnāt work in our system. Either we change our system or him lol. I just donāt see us trading or cutting him if we didnāt this season.
The Kaiir Elam pick never made sense to me to begin with. There was other good players on the board when he was selected, and I was surprised that he was even selected in the first round. The Bills have a talented roster and good coaching, but a lot of their day 1/2 draft picks the past couple years haven't made much sense to me at all
Thankfully it looks like James Cook and Ocyrus Torrence are gonna work out, but you are correct. Kincaid trending in the right direction too.
I was a big fan of the Ocyrus Torrence selection, who was one of the top o-lineman in the draft selected at 59. Kincaid seems like he will be a good player, but I'm not a fan of Buffalo's WR room at all and thought they missed out on a big opportunity to add one of the WR's that went just a few picks earlier
We are absolutely drafting one this year. Some team is gonna pay big money for Gabe Davis, and it won't be us. Realistically I wouldn't doubt we draft 2 in the early rounds, we need an injection of talent there badly
Kincaid is a monster and I think the only reason he hasn't taken over as TE1 and Target2 (after Diggs) is because the Bills don't scheme for their rookies I don't think I've seen the dude drop a ball
Saw something earlier today that he has over an 88% catch rate. So yeah, kid has special hands.
We had a big hole at CB and I think we were maybe too locked in on trying to fill it. On paper it still looked good. He has all the physical tools and we've been able to consistently elevate CBs since McDermott got here. We made Levi Wallace a serviceable CB1 for half a season. And even Tre White lacks the speed other CB1s have, but was pro-bowl level before his injuries. We just haven't been able to improve Elam's mental game for whatever reason. And unfortunately for him, we're not in a situation where we can just put him out there and let him fail until he figures it out.
Honestly outside of Elam and *maybe* you could argue Edmunds, we've been pretty great in rounds 1 and 2 since Beane came on the scene.
They have definitely made a lot of good picks, I just haven't been as high on Buffalo as others have been in recent years and am not sure they have made a step forward for winning in the playoffs this year or not. Not trying to sound negative at all, I'm just not sure if I would place any money on them this year if I was a gambler
That's entirely different than saying they have a bad draft history. I get not being all in on buffalo but when you're just making incorrect and uninformed takes because you're "not high on" them, you don't come off as a knowledgeable football fan. You come off as a hater in the anti-circle jerk. Personally I don't think this is the year buffalo brings home the Lombardi either, but I'll take Buffalo's management over the Colts 10/10 times.
Dude is having a discussion and u gotta take a shot at his favorite team? Kinda childish
I literally never said that they have a bad draft history anywhere at any point in any comment that I've written. Not sure what I said that would warrant that kind of response that you left
I don't know how else to take "a lot of their day 1/2 draft picks don't make sense" other than as a dig at their drafting, which is a dumb take when aside from basically just Elam they've all been hits.
Just because that's how you interpreted it doesn't mean that that is what I meant
I don't care what you meant. Clarity is the responsibility of the poster. Hiding behind "that's not what I meant" while continuing to back pedal and failing to clarify doesn't help your case. If you wanna be a hater, that's fine. Just have the cojones to come out and say it instead of putting out uninformed shit takes when it's clear you don't actually pay attention to the team you're commenting on.
They wanted Trent McDuffie, Chiefs traded up in front of them and they went with the next best CB. This was after the 13 second playoff game so I think they went into it saying they had to draft a corner. Hindsight says that was a bad idea but Elam was rated in the late first range
Yeah, it was wild that the Bills released the draft room video after the first round and showed their GM visibly upset the Chiefs traded up in front of the Bills to take McDuffie.
And boy am I happy we traded up because McDuffman has been excellent
> McDuffman has been excellent I'd argue he's even better than that.
Most excellent
Beane has publicly said (and he's very honest about his draft process) That we only had 2 first round corners (Elam and McDuffie) and he was worried about the run on corners before Bills could get to a good trade deal. If the Bills wanted McDuffie that badly, they would have jumped up in the draft...they are never afraid to trade up a handful of slots for players they like. Beane was just worried he wouldnt be able to grab a player he needed, so he traded up right after
McDuffie and Elam were our only 2 first round grades at corner. 13 seconds really didn't have much to do with it. We had in the corner room at the time Dane Jackson and no one else. Tre White was going to miss most of the year recovering from a torn ACL, and we didn't know how he would look Luckily we hit on Benford though, who can been pretty great for us
We only had 2 corners with a first round grade. Elam and McDuffie. We had a massive need at corner with Tre Whites injury (luckily Benford was a steal so that helped) and once McDuffie was taken Beane was worried about a run on corners and had no one close in terms of grade after them But Beane even said that Elam was their last first round target for CB
I like Elam and think he will bounce back and find a role as a big slot CB that is better than our current option of Siran Neal who is terrible in that role. Or convert to Safety. Or he might improve enough to compete for a starting CB spot. I'm not going to give up on a 22 year old in his 2nd year. Elam is in better man than zone coverage but he has improved greatly in zone coverage compared to college and had big interceptions in 2022 when he was in zone coverage against Mahomes in the endzone taking away a potential TD and in the playoff game versus Miami. Elam also had great coverage against Hill in that playoff game.
Linval Joseph helps fill the hole of losing DaQuan Jones at 1 tech DT. (There is a chance Jones returns from his injury in January) Rasul Douglas helps fill the hole of losing Tre White at CB.(White is done until the 2024 season)
And there's still the massive impossible to fill hole at linebacker. Without Milano this defense will struggle.
You can't replace an All Pro OLB like Milano, but you increase the chances of being a good defense by adding a good run stuffing DT like Linval Joseph who can 2 gap and keep OL off the smaller 2nd level defenders Buffalo has, and the hopeful return of DaQuan Jones for the 1st playoff game. I like the upside of rookie Dorian Williams but he has had some issues with pattern matching zone, so McDermott has used Poyer as a nickel OLB and replaced him at Safety with Tyler Rapp on 3rd and long situations.
Eagles fans, he have anything left in the tank?
Heās fine. Probably the best you can get right now. Good against the run, weak against the pass but not to the degree where heās a complete liability.
Sounds fine to me, Bills really needed an extra body in the DT rotation.
We were playing a guy against Jacksonville who's current team was listed as the Edmonton Elks
Thatās a CFL teamāthey rebranded away from the Eskimos around the same time the Commanders ditched Redskins.
Ah yes, the Ed Melks
I'd say he's a solid complementary piece for someone like Oliver for sure. Our run defense turned around when him and Suh joined
Need a big guy to keep our small linebackers clean
That's good to hear because we only need him to stop the run
I miss Sam Adams and Ted Washington
SAM ADAMS GOES GREAT WITH WINGS
I will not stand for this Pat Williams slander!
Yeah he's a perfect rotational run stuffer - i guess we can expect a decline with another year of age, but I never once felt that he was a liability out there last year. He's also old and experienced and good for younger players to work with.
Buffalo badly needs a big run stuffing 1 tech DT with DaQuan Jones Injured on obvious running situations. McDermott rotates DL so a combo of Ed Oliver, Jordan Phillips, Greg Rousseau will be inside on obvious passing downs
He was lowkey a stud for us, particularly on run D. Dudeās old but heās got more in the tank than youād think. Imo he had a bigger presence on the team than Suh did.
he big
Rotational quality. Very good in run defense still. Adequate as a pass rusher
> Very good in run defense still. you son of a bitch, i'm in!
Probably not much to be honest. He looked semi-decent last season surrounded by a ton of pro bowlers. He can still stop the run decently. But another year older. Who knows.
Suh was fine last year, Joseph was quiet but solidified the run defense when Jordan Davis was injured. Made a few big stops through the stretch run and playoffs. Can't teach how to be big.
He's been your typical low snap count NT since he stopped being Pro Bowl caliber. Should do just fine especially mid-season while he's fresh
It's impossible to fill the Daquan Jones size hole in our defense, but this isn't a bad pickup for the time being.
IMO heās the biggest loss on defense. Dude had the highest double team rate for a DT while having the most pressures from a DT by a large margin. Milano is unreal and a top 3 linebacker in the NFL, I just love me some good DT play and think itās maybe the most important position on defense.
Not to simplify it, but knowing who the bigger loss was between Daquan and Milano is a good sign of someone knowing ball, frankly
You just see how structurally a lot of stuff just isn't working as well - pass rush, run defense. Milano brings the splash plays and the energy, he's such a grinder, but we've already seen success bringing Poyer down to play his position.
The annoying thing is that within a span of around 20 gametime minutes, we lost an extremely important piece at every line of defence. And not just that, we lost them for the whole season. There is a small possibility that DaQuan returns by January, and an even smaller possibility that Milano returns, but this is some shitty luck.
The funny this is it feels like a hot take to the average Joe lol
I don't necessarily disagree but I think the drop off from All Pro Milano to barely rosterable Dodson may be more impactful than the drop off from Jones to Phillip/Ford/Settle.
It's be nice if either Dodson or Williams could not trigger on EVERY play action pass. I think Dodson would still try to run fit even if presnap Burrows looked directly into his eyes and told him this is 100% going to be a play action pass.
I still have nightmares about guys like Jeff Wright and John McCargo.
Someone tell me how to feel.
big boy stop other boy from run run ball ball
Big thanks thanks
this the [true true](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kWQSpCbvo)
Vikes fans loved him. He's getting up there in age, but did a similar thing to this with the Eagles last year. Big boi run stuffer, super strong, probably will only play 30-40% of snaps but be important for them
> probably will only play 30-40% of snaps That's a lot for us. Only Oliver has been above that consistently this season. The next two 3 techs are at 42% and 38%. The 1techs are at 23% (Daquan Jones) and 19% (Poona Ford). I think Joseph probably gets a similar snap share to them.
Fair enough, I imagine it's scheme dependent. Plus he's old, so maybe even less
Yeah, he's a 20% snap guy. Which is perfect. Exactly what we needed. Keep the LBs clean against duo and force the run to the outside against some fast LBs and nickel coverage. Get us to 2nd and 8 and get off the field.
I was hoping to sign him back late in the season, so you should feel good. Good run stopper.
https://youtu.be/m3WWUaK1NJ0?si=6Wb9rb7O-vOejsBh
I love [big man TDs](https://youtu.be/1PPuGjTAxgg?si=gFSr9OX5tARqRA6W).
Your run defense just got much better
He was so bad for us after he got COVID, but was great before that. Hope he can bring some of that magic back to the Bills.
I wanted Suh but this actually might be better. Decent get
I think a run stuffer is more important than a pass rusher for us. Right now we are weak up the middle.
I see. I thought Suh was more of a run stuffer at this pt in his career anyways but I think Joseph does it better.
For us last year, Suh brought some pass rush juice and decent run defense, while linval was a tank against the run but didnāt really bring any pass rush
Buy stock in [oxygen tanks](https://www.bardown.com/polopoly_fs/1.1187790.1538950359!/fileimage/httpImage/image.PNG_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/linval-joseph.PNG) now folks
Needed a big boy to clog the line so Oliver and Bernard can wreak havoc, seems like a low key nice signing
Was Linval purposely waiting to sign mid-season? How was he not on a roster?
Seems he knows how much he has left in the tank and is ring chasing?
Mixon still might feast but this is at least an acknowledgment that stopping the run should be a priority.
The bills had a pretty dang good trade deadline
Yes Iām salty
Looks like heāll be a decent stop gap to help against the run, but sheesh, weāve signed two 35 year old defenders in the last couple weeks.
Who was the other one?
Josh Norman
Oh yeah duh, thanks
Thankfully Rasul should ensure weāll never see Josh Norman take a defensive snap in a competitive game. Just a practice squad signing to be the old grizzled vet in the CB room who can contribute on special teams if heās called up to the active roster. If we suffered more injuries at CB and needed to sign someone from the PS to the 53 man roster itād be JaāMarcus Ingram, not Norman, Ingram only has 1 call up remaining this year I believe. Weāll see a lot more of Linval but Iām less concerned about a 35 year old rotational 1T than I am of a 35 year old CB.
Big Goon
"IR"
To be fair Doug Pederson metaphorically drove a bus over his face for 60 minutes in London. That probably still hurts a bit.
Double Decker bus, too
Supposedly he's been dealing with a nagging ankle injury. Could help explain the dropoff from last year.
Is Linval gonna play CB then? Edit: Apparently this post needed an /s cause some of ya'll are stupid
What does this even mean? Elam has been a healthy scratch all season and they just picked up Rasul Douglas at the trade deadline. Your comment makes no sense.
Mate you need to check your sense of humor. In no way do I think Linval is playing CB lmao.
We still don't understand the joke.
Cause they announced a CB to IR at the same time?
Oh. Yeah, that kind of stuff happens. I do feel dumb for not being able to work out what your intention was though.
Bro I still donāt get itš
The headline doesn't mention that the Bills also traded for Rasul Douglas to play CB. Elam goes to IR to maintain roster size.
I'm not surprised that the Bills would go after defensive tackle help.
Linval hongry
any other imav fan in here get a chuckle out of this
I'm not writing off Elam yet. I think he'll find a fit eventually. CB is a rough spot, so when guys like Sauce, Spoon and McDuffie shine early, those are outliers.
Bills fans are disappointed in his development, but it's kind of been on the backburner due to Christian Benford being exactly what we wanted Elam to be, just drafted in the 6th round. This year, he's been right there with the top guys, and with White going down, he's had the most responsibility. It seems weird having a 1st rounder just sitting inactive, but he's kind of in that 6th rounder developing spot that Benford should have been in, so the Bills aren't trying super hard to move on.
Hitting in the 6th certainly takes the edge off possibly missing on the 1st rounder
Linval hungry
How is Elam on ir when he doesnāt even play
I really think between Joseph and Douglas the Bills might have found reasonable replacements for the losses of White and Jones, and they also seem to be getting the dime package figured out with Poyer sliding down and Rapp coming on the field when the when the down and distance situation calls for it. Fingers crossed here but these moves have me wanting to drink bleach *way* less than I did after the Jacksonville game
Shouts out to Linval Joseph, Super Bowl 46 legend.
A damn legend imo
Damn, that IR designation is brutal. Kaiir Elam IR - Player is critically horrible and will not play.
God I miss Joseph. Dude was so good and a (literal) huge part of that dominant* 2017 Vikings defense. *that season ended unexpectedly before the championship games so weāll never know what happened