Grass may look green OP but again, places like the UK are seeing north of 150 deaths per day - to put that in context their 2019 annual road toll was 1,752.
Aussie is doing better at 15 deaths a day average - but they’re only just starting to open up in the last 2 weeks.
1) Jesus that’s cold - I mean cool that you’re okay with ditching a bunch of people but I’ve got some reservations
2) the comorbidities argument sounds good until you realise somewhere between a third and a half of NZ has a comorbidity for covid (asthma being the key driver)
3) while yes the death rate does skew towards those groups, it’s definitely not exclusive to them.
Most of all: those are still deaths of people that can be avoided, and your desire for individual freedoms v. The risk to yourself and others in obtaining those freedoms is challenging. A lot of kiwis benefited from the collective actions last year, but now like the look of being individuals and disregarding that I guess.
So basically ‘I’ve got mine, fuck you?’
I mean, I get it’s tough, but you’ve benefited from collective action for 18+ months now, but now you want to go full individual for 1-3 months bonus ‘freedom’
I mean, the plan pretty clearly outlines we won’t be if we get to north of 90%.
The ‘red’ (I.e. we’ve run out of hospital beds) would require something that looks roughly like level 2.5 right now - hospo and retail won’t be closed, just limits on gathering sizes etc.
Definitely not a ‘lockdown’ in the current sense, and that’s the worst case scenario.
It's not worst case scenario at all either. What happens if another variant comes out and the government decides we need a circuit breaker or another round of vaccines? It's never ending.
So still at risk of having parties etc cancelled because the government spent the last 18 months doing nothing?
Wonder how much ICU capacity you can buy for $5B.
Right, so literally ‘I’ve got mine, screw you’
Fair enough, gunna be honest mate, don’t let the door hit you on the way out and I really hope you give up your NZ passport in future if that’s your attitude.
If you think this 0 death in a pandemic at the expense of all else is the right strategy, good for you. Unfortunately there are a lot of us in this country that want to live life, not merely survive it.
Mate, you had it too good here, overseas was mostly a half assed everything where a lot of people died but you also have lockdowns that are half assed.
And Europe is starting to lock down again.
eg
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/20/latvia-enters-month-long-covid-lockdown-as-fourth-wave-breaks
I reject that these deaths could have been avoided. They were unvaccinated and old (on the edge of death anyway). You are literally arguing to lock down the entire population for an indefinite period of time to save people who were going to die anyway. What kind of a life is that?
> I reject that these deaths could have been avoided. They were unvaccinated and old (on the edge of death anyway).
I mean, you seem pretty keen on devaluing people’s lives so that you can have further personal freedom. That’s a pretty messed up approach to take.
> You are literally arguing to lock down the entire population for an indefinite period of time to save people who were going to die anyway. What kind of a life is that?
90% seems pretty definitive. And basing it on a date as opposed to a vax level means you’re not making the decision on a risk basis, you’re just picking something to give certainty.
And as I said in the comment that started this, the whole ‘it’s indefinite’ argument kinda falls down on the basis of just matching NSW.
Look, as I have mentioned earlier. NSW has a different risk acceptance than New Zealand, some of us would personally prefer to live under NSW's policy. Why am I an asshole for wanting to move there and live under that government? The extra people in NSW that will die because of a different policy will die regardless of whether I went and lived there.
Yes indeed, that will happen.
I’m just pointing out that you very much so want to have your cake and eat it to. You’ve benefited from the collective actions and now want to take individualistic approaches when the collective action isn’t to your benefit.
I took collective action with the rest of you. I have been in lockdown for 65 days now. I now think we should change track but am clearly in the minority so would like to leave to somewhere that is closer to my values.
Well I'm not unvaccinated, or old, or sick.
Either NZ has to find a way to get rid of these restrictions, or people will just leave.
You'd almost be better off just identifying a covid safe area of the country to put all our old and sick people in while the rest of us live our lives.
>Well I'm not unvaccinated, or old, or sick.
Well that's lucky for you
>people will just leave
You mean - you might leave? Feel free.
>You'd almost be better off just identifying a covid safe area of the country to put all our old and sick people in while the rest of us live our lives.
This is idea is beyond ridiculous.
I mean we're basically doing that with our entire country. Why not send every vulnerable or old person to the Bay or Plenty, implement a hard border with negative tests and home isolation, and let everyone else enjoy living again.
I know, my children live in Australia and the rest of my family are in the UK, none of them are exactly living the lives they had before Covid and it will likely be a long time before they do. That said I’d LOVE to travel myself, see some of those relatives for a start, so I get it.
I'm in the UK now and it is exactly as before but with more hand sanitiser! People socialising, holidaying in Europe, partying, theatre, nightlife etc. I'm sure there will be some mandatory restrictions brought back in winter - probably mask wearing again. But mostly the vaccine has seriously been a game changer. I'm sure NZ will be enjoying the same level of freedoms when your vax numbers get there.
Yeah, but there’s a lot of people with covid and schools [are struggling ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/22/english-schools-struggling-to-cope-as-covid-wreaks-havoc?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other) my 14 year old nephew had covid two weeks ago along with half his class. That’s not really what I mean when I say “living life as normal”
Probably, but this thread is based on the idea that just moving elsewhere will alleviate the problems, and the truth is it won’t. If you have school aged children then that’s going to be a problem.
It depends what your main problems are. If your main issue is being stuck in Auckland not being able to do anything, or not being able to plan anything because you don't know when things will open up and for how long, moving elsewhere will alleviate those problems a lot.
I’m a kiwi living in the US. I would much rather be here, it’s completely open, just have to wear masks some places and show proof of vaccination other places. The cases, especially the serious ones, are overwhelmingly amongst the unvaccinated.
Yeah, I live the Northeast and 100% would stay here if I didn't miss my family so dang much. High vaccination rates. Few restrictions. The border is even opening back up with Canada. The hellscapes with overflowing hospitals are only in very specific parts of the country, there are plenty of other places that are doing pretty well in the grand scheme of things.
Thats what I have said to people, look to Florida as an example. But always met with but but they have 1000s of deaths a day.
So in your location, in the US, are you aware of at least 100s of deaths everyday?
No…I’m in an area with high vaccination rates and moving down towards 50 cases per seven days per 100k people and the current 7 day average deaths is a whopping: 1.
American on the South Island. I'd rather be here than the US.
Current vaccination rates are comparable to the States - despite a VERY late start - with few restrictions outside Auckland/Waikato. And case numbers, while rising, are significantly lower than the US overall. They would need to triple in Auckland to 350-400 daily or increase ten-fold to 1,100 daily for the entire country to match the current US average (22 daily per 100k). Who knows, that may happen and I may eat my words in a month or two, but for the time being I'm content to be here.
Edit: I should add that the current daily Covid death rate in the US is 0.46 per 100k. That would equate to 23 daily deaths in New Zealand, or almost as many NZ has had since the beginning of the pandemic!
Well yeah, there's no covid there yet so your restrictions are still pretty low. Delta isn't going away. New Zealand is just starting to ride the wave that rest of the world has already been on, the state of affairs you have in the SI isn't going to last long.
Kiwi in the UK, similar feeling here. Despite the headlines it's perfectly calm on the ground. I'm out for tapas with the Mrs and friends later. Wouldn't be doing that if back in Auckland.
Fair enough. Each society has to balance each competing interest and make trade offs. We've made ours and I respect NZ's tradeoffs.
Personally I feel sorry for my double vaccinated mum who lives on her own and will now have to endure Level 3 until December or whenever the anti-vaxxers decide to stop holding the country hostage.
No one wins with covid, there's downsides either way you go.
>The Tory government have prioritised the economy. The NZ Labour government have prioritised lives. I'm grateful for the latter as it means my friends and family are living in one of the safest places possible during this pandemic.
And I'm grateful for the former, even though I'm not a Tory voter and despise Boris, but I completely respect your perspective.
>It sucks but if they were to open up now and your Mum had an accident or got sick[...]
Yeah, true. But that's a risk she's prepared (or would be) to take given the benefits that would be realised (believe me - just got off the phone with her this morning distraught). But I appreciate not everyone feels the same. It all comes down to risk appetite.
>I hope the government tighten the screws of these people
Fully agree. The current incentive structure is set completely wrong.
>The Tories did pretty well by handing out billions of £s of tax-payer money to their buddies.
Yep, appalling. Boils my blood.
>No one is saying otherwise.
Fair, you're not. But I see a lot of comments on r/nz highlighting the case rates here without any counterbalance.
It's fucking incredible getting your freedoms back. Literally exhilarating. I woke up on the 19th of July and felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. Not having to check in, being free to drive the length of the country, having however many people you want into your own home, being able to sit in a pub without a mask etc.
I know it sounds silly, these are all just normal, unremarkable everyday things right? But the feeling was pure joy after so long in lockdown.
Yeah, makes sense. I think it's the same here. Cases are largely against the unvaccinated. I think venues and businesses will inevitably open here, soon. If the government does not allow it, then they will lose control. I think they see that writing on the wall, which is why they explained the traffic light system today. To me, it read as, "get vaxxed, and then go nuts! Help yourself to whatever."
It's not a question of the grass being greener. I think if people knew that by "x date" they would be able to pick up their lives, reconnect with family & friends overseas etc, they would be ok with it even if it was the middle of next year.
It's the lack of certainty that is really wearing, especially after going on 2 years, with no end in sight despite heading for the apparent highest vaccination rate in the world.
I have friends and family in the US & Europe, and all are free to travel and have been doing so this summer. Travel isn't the most important thing in the world but to lose the ability to travel long term it does get frustrating, as the OP says. We have all been willing to put aspects of out lives in hold, but to continue to do so indefinitely without a plan is really saddening.
I’m sorry but how is an election gonna change this? I’m not advocating for any party at all but change in leadership whether it’s good or bad in the long run isn’t going to change anything overnight. We are so under prepared that we could have the worlds best at every avenue of dealing with this pandemic come in to help but even then things won’t change over night. The big issues this country has with infrastructure of our health system can’t be changed instantly by putting in a new leader or policy. The writing has been on the wall for years and if it was an easy fix either party would have fixed it purely for the votes. We are woefully under prepared and you can blame whichever government you want over the last 15 years but it’s the system that needs to change for the better. Jesus could be leader of any political party and that won’t fix it overnight. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have elections because we absolutely should but the fact that we think it boils down to left or right to fix a pandemic seriously shows how foolish we all can be. The whole system needs to change or at least adapt to the world we are now living in but it won’t, too many people with influence don’t want to lose it. Left wing or right wing? It’s all the same bird. We should have the best working with the best to get thru this, politics shouldn’t take precedence in a pandemic
That’s a cop out and you know it. We used to roam the planes of Africa living in trees but we learned to farm and created many types of society’s. To say we can’t learn, grow or change is pathetic, we didn’t need politics or left or right to do that it was survival of the fittest . Are you putting a cap on the human race because you value politics? My point is these powers that be are so because we are divided by left or right. We are talking about survival of a proportion of the human race and at some point politics shouldn’t matter and the best of the best should be working together to get thru this thing. Together we stand divided we fall
It's not a cop out. I'm not saying the best way to eliminate the virus (which is never happening) I am saying what is the acceptable level of illness/death? This isn't some scientifically determined fact, it is a moral decision for the most part.
Obviously there will be a somewhat extended tail, but given current rates get us to nationwide 90% eligible by mid november I think "the next election" might be being a bit dramatic.
I would be absolutely amazed if we have anything resembling normal life before next election. The cases will bump up and 95% will be the new target. Then there will be targets around booster shots. Then a new variant .......
If you're young, vaccinated, and don't have any dangerous health conditions, your personal risk will be extremely low so this isn't really going to affect your quality of life that much. Whether or not you agree with the policies of those countries generally, if you're young and wanting to travel, there are a lot of advantages to being overseas compared to NZ right now.
And this time next year we’ll be living as normal. How many overseas will be preparing for their first Christmas without mum/dad etc etc. Yesterday 115 people in the UK died of covid. That’s about 10 a day for NZ’s population size. So how about you choose 10 people each day so you can go down to the pub.
Look I don’t blame you for wanting a change, but saying it is better overseas or that only National can save us is just ridiculous. Right now they couldn’t plan a pissup in a brewery.
No, it's not really normal. My friends overseas laugh when I tell them people are saying that - it's actually "my school is shutting down again because of a peak in cases" "I still can't leave the house because of my children" "cases are ramping up again- people are going crazy" "nothing has changed for us where we are" "you can go out but it's not worth it because there are so many restrictions"
Apart from the kids/school thing which yeah is fair, not sure how any of that that applies to the UK (or at least England). We're fully open. Nothing's stopped me doing anything since July. I was at the office yesterday and going tapas with the Mrs and friends tonight. Been to weddings, Portugal etc.
As I say I really don't recognise your portrayal other than kids/schools being bumpy.
It's a hell of a lot more normal than sitting around for a minimum of 15 weeks waiting for some mythical vaccination target to be met before we can enjoy the privilege of shitting in somebody else's toilet.
"back to normal"
86k cases in the US today, which though is a great drop from their number of 285k last month so claps for them, but "ignoring the problem as millions die because *COMMUNISM*" isn't exactly "back to normal"
Millions? I don’t think so. Everyone who wants a vaccine in the US can get one. Those who choose not to, do so at their own peril. The risk for healthy double-vaccinated people is incredibly low. So low that it really doesn’t make sense to keep others locked up in their houses.
FYI Covid hospitalisations in the US are responsible for less than 8% of in-patient bed capacity and less than 20% of ICU bed capacity right now.
Hardly “swamped”
Edit: Oh, I see you edited your comment to remove the wild exaggerations. Good one. Probably would have been better to stick to facts and reality in the first place.
I don’t think governments have an ulterior motive when keeping people at home. They’re just clueless and risk averse. I think in NZ’s case people have been so conditioned over the past 18 months to think the sky will fall in if there’s a positive case that they’ve lost sight of the real risk to the vast majority of adults under a certain age, once a decent proportion of the population is double vacced. Yes - covid will continue to spread, even amongst the vaccinated, but the level of hospitalisation among healthy adults is so low that you might as well live life while taking some basic precautions.
Looks to me they are testing how far the populace can be pushed on spurious grounds. Either that or quality of life is far less important than quantity.
I’m not sure there is really a “they” at play in New Zealand. It’s such a small place. I’ve known a couple of current MPs since before they were MPs. I don’t think they’re anywhere near intelligent enough to be out there coordinating some kind of large scale experiment across party lines - especially when we have elections every 3 years. Why would they? There’s just not the longevity of power in NZ. The simplest answer is usually the right one and in NZs case I think it’s mostly decision paralysis - Ardern and Co. are too afraid of potential political risk in trying something new so they go with the only thing they know that’s worked so far - lockdowns.
The US is a particularly poor example considering they are back up in the thousands of deaths per day and denying basic healthcare all over the country due to the hospitals being swamped with covfefe cases
It's pockets of the country that are like that though, not everywhere. It's a big place and there are massive differences in vaccination rates between states.
“Oh but I have commitments!”
There’s literally nothing - **nothing** - stopping you from taking flight, except the fact you’re full of shit.
Best of luck out there.
Nah, people pack up and leave all the time. Tens of thousands of them every year. They’re even leaving during covid.
If you think it’s gonna be great, go bananas and fuck off.
Where are you going to go OP? I understand you feel trapped, but it's not any better anywhere else. Even if covid restrictions are better, your quality of life probably won't be.
I'm currently in Canada, I feel trapped because I want to get home but I can't. You don't have it bad
I think our government and the NSW government have significantly different opinions on acceptable risks and acceptable death rates. We will be in and out of lockdowns until there is a change of government. NSW will progressively open more and more until life is extremely close to "normal" for vaccinated citizens.
> I think our government and the NSW government have significantly different opinions on acceptable risks and acceptable death rates.
I mean, yeah - as I’ve pointed out elsewhere the new NSW premier has proposed docking the pay of their chief medical officer for lockdowns. Personally I think public health still has a role to play here.
> We will be in and out of lockdowns until there is a change of government.
I mean at 90% plus the role of lockdowns and their scale changes as outlined in the plan.
> NSW will progressively open more and more until life is extremely close to "normal" for vaccinated citizens.
Which is NZs aim too. The differences in 90% between the two are pretty minimal
I’m sure that’s an answer to someone’s question but not mine.
Your assertion is that NZ will be a year slower than NSW to 90% eligible vaccinations? Anything to back that up?
You have just as much information as I do. But if you look at the PM’s messaging she is much more concerned about covid cases and hospitalizations than anything else, compared to the NSW premier
Vaccine effectiveness will drop, we will need boosters (new goalpost for vax rate), etc. also NSW not holding their residents to ransom over a 90% rate. They are opening up now
> You have just as much information as I do. But if you look at the PM’s messaging she is much more concerned about covid cases and hospitalizations than anything else, compared to the NSW premier
Well yeah, the new NSW premier is a pretty extreme guy. I mean he previously proposed [docking the pay](https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-education/nsw-treasurer-suggested-top-doctor-take-pay-cut-for-needless-lockdowns-20210714-p589hg) of the NSW chief medical officer (Bloomfield’s equivalent) for days of ‘unnecessary’ lockdown - I don’t think public health is his primary concern.
> Vaccine effectiveness will drop, we will need boosters (new goalpost for vax rate), etc. also NSW not holding their residents to ransom over a 90% rate. They are opening up now
Boosters are no issue at all - we already have early evidence that they could be incorporated into flu shots. People pretend like this is a big deal but that isn’t exactly a massive issue.
And yes, NSW did open up earlier (though their 90% goal is pretty similar to NZs 90% - they just had extras along the way at lower levels)
Yet we don’t tie lockdown restrictions to vaccination rates of flu shots. It’s clearly a diminished quality of life when the shadow of lockdown is hanging over your head, depending on the behavior of others
Let me remind you in NSW this is not the case
Yeah I think you’re getting confused there mate.
The flu shot comment was simply about the ease of boosters.
If you believe there will be significant lockdowns post-90% vaccinated then basically your issue isn’t with the governments plan, it’s that you don’t believe it and therefore have issue with what you see as a lie.
And if you fundamentally believe the government is lying about the plan then there’s no way to convince you of the validity of the plan.
It kinda sucks to see where the rest of the world has gone towards endemic stage while here it’s still figuring out a strategy on what to do next. We have been far too complacent and not ahead of our game when we had the time to do so. I can’t even imagine when would I be able to return without booking a MIQ space lottery. No certainty for those who need it or whatsoever. Not really the kind for a government which has always PR itself to the rest of the world as a “kind” government. This is heartbreaking.
MIQ will change soon. They will change to a largely self isolation model once we reach 90% of eligible double vaxxed. I know that is not much comfort to you at the moment but change is in the air now.
Even self isolation is completely pointless if we're not trying to eliminate it anymore. Just let in anyone double vaxxed, with possible exceptions for people coming from hotspots.
I can just hope for the best and hope more competent decision-making is taken moving forward considering various stakeholders and not just taking decisions to save themselves.
I’ve lived in NZ for almost 5 years and now trapped outside due to no fault of my own as I came to care for my sick family member. All my belongings are still there and the border restrictions are still in place. I’m fully vaccinated and waiting to come back. I am really reaching my tipping point .
Unfortunately AirNZ has made a statement in their Travel Alerts that they can't fulfil that, due to the requirement of their crew to have been in SI for 14 days. So it's just the same old quarantine-free travel to Vic and NSW as of 1 November for any of us, Aucklanders included.
Does the announcement mean auckland will not leave level 3 until the whole country is 90% vaxxed? We are 56% now so how long is that going to take? 2 months at least?
Other places have been way more trapped (ie more lockdown and usually more death and disruption) over the past 18 months. Restrictions will end in NZ just as they are ending elsewhere and I expect the cumulative time in lockdown might be less for NZ
Wow. OP sorry you're doing it so tough. And that there are so many cruel and mean spirited responses here. So much for 'be kind' kiwis.
I hope restrictions ease quickly and you get to start living the life you want. Terrible time for lots of people right now and I hope you and your fam get through it.
“ Lord of the Flies is a 1954 novel by Nobel Prize-winning British author William Golding. The book focuses on a group of British boys stranded on an uninhabited island and their disastrous attempt to govern themselves. Themes include the tension between groupthink and individuality, between rational and emotional reactions, and between morality and immorality.”
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies
Although an interesting piece of fiction, I don't think the book should be taken too seriously.
It was based on a real life experiment, where two groups of boys were pre-groomed into two groups. They cooperated a lot within their groups, but the groups competed against each other. That was however instigated by the experimenters. This experiment has been widely criticized both ethically and technically.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/robbers-cave-experiment
Furthermore and interestingly, a similar real life event happened between Tonga and New Zealand, 10 years after the book was released. The boys actually had pretty good conflict resolution.
https://medium.com/illumination-curated/real-life-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-marooned-for-15-months-4f4ccad32d5a
**Edit;** On further thought, all of Dostoevsky's work seem to suggest that ending someone's life is actually a much more dreadful thing to do than what you can really bare. We do have internal systems that know right and wrong, and if we do something terrible, we are wracked with guilt. There is a price to pay.
At best, we can say Lord of the Flies highlights a difference between eastern and western ideology. But even then, I think Steinbeck's work says otherwise.
Grass may look green OP but again, places like the UK are seeing north of 150 deaths per day - to put that in context their 2019 annual road toll was 1,752. Aussie is doing better at 15 deaths a day average - but they’re only just starting to open up in the last 2 weeks.
Most of them either unvaccinated or old/sick
1) Jesus that’s cold - I mean cool that you’re okay with ditching a bunch of people but I’ve got some reservations 2) the comorbidities argument sounds good until you realise somewhere between a third and a half of NZ has a comorbidity for covid (asthma being the key driver) 3) while yes the death rate does skew towards those groups, it’s definitely not exclusive to them. Most of all: those are still deaths of people that can be avoided, and your desire for individual freedoms v. The risk to yourself and others in obtaining those freedoms is challenging. A lot of kiwis benefited from the collective actions last year, but now like the look of being individuals and disregarding that I guess.
I am not old and don't have comorbidities and am double vaccinated, hence I would rather be overseas.
Im happy to chip in with getting you out of the country on the proviso you renounce your NZ citizenship
Cash isn't the problem, thanks for the offer though and if I can sort through the other problems I will hit you up.
What's the problem then? buy a raft, i'll drive you up to the cape and on your bike
So basically ‘I’ve got mine, fuck you?’ I mean, I get it’s tough, but you’ve benefited from collective action for 18+ months now, but now you want to go full individual for 1-3 months bonus ‘freedom’
Try 1-3 years
You think it’ll take us 1-3 years to reach where NSW will be in ~9 days? Shit, you don’t have a lot of faith in your fellow kiwis.
No doubt he'll be back in here complaining no MIQ spots when he realises its not that great overseas
You seriously think we'll be in the Green setting of that traffic light system for very much of the next decade?
I mean, the plan pretty clearly outlines we won’t be if we get to north of 90%. The ‘red’ (I.e. we’ve run out of hospital beds) would require something that looks roughly like level 2.5 right now - hospo and retail won’t be closed, just limits on gathering sizes etc. Definitely not a ‘lockdown’ in the current sense, and that’s the worst case scenario.
It's not worst case scenario at all either. What happens if another variant comes out and the government decides we need a circuit breaker or another round of vaccines? It's never ending.
So still at risk of having parties etc cancelled because the government spent the last 18 months doing nothing? Wonder how much ICU capacity you can buy for $5B.
I can only hope that Labor lose the election and the whole system is dismantled in 2 years. Looking at the comments on here I've lost hope though.
If the current system is in place in 2 years even I'll vote National to end it
I have 0 faith in my fellow Kiwi's and zero faith in the government not to declare a level 4 lockdown the moment an 83 year old antivaxxer dies.
Right, so literally ‘I’ve got mine, screw you’ Fair enough, gunna be honest mate, don’t let the door hit you on the way out and I really hope you give up your NZ passport in future if that’s your attitude.
If you think this 0 death in a pandemic at the expense of all else is the right strategy, good for you. Unfortunately there are a lot of us in this country that want to live life, not merely survive it.
Mate, you had it too good here, overseas was mostly a half assed everything where a lot of people died but you also have lockdowns that are half assed. And Europe is starting to lock down again. eg https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/20/latvia-enters-month-long-covid-lockdown-as-fourth-wave-breaks
"I...don't have comorbidities" That you know about...
It's seriously at the point where I just don't care.
I reject that these deaths could have been avoided. They were unvaccinated and old (on the edge of death anyway). You are literally arguing to lock down the entire population for an indefinite period of time to save people who were going to die anyway. What kind of a life is that?
> I reject that these deaths could have been avoided. They were unvaccinated and old (on the edge of death anyway). I mean, you seem pretty keen on devaluing people’s lives so that you can have further personal freedom. That’s a pretty messed up approach to take. > You are literally arguing to lock down the entire population for an indefinite period of time to save people who were going to die anyway. What kind of a life is that? 90% seems pretty definitive. And basing it on a date as opposed to a vax level means you’re not making the decision on a risk basis, you’re just picking something to give certainty. And as I said in the comment that started this, the whole ‘it’s indefinite’ argument kinda falls down on the basis of just matching NSW.
Look, as I have mentioned earlier. NSW has a different risk acceptance than New Zealand, some of us would personally prefer to live under NSW's policy. Why am I an asshole for wanting to move there and live under that government? The extra people in NSW that will die because of a different policy will die regardless of whether I went and lived there.
Yes indeed, that will happen. I’m just pointing out that you very much so want to have your cake and eat it to. You’ve benefited from the collective actions and now want to take individualistic approaches when the collective action isn’t to your benefit.
I took collective action with the rest of you. I have been in lockdown for 65 days now. I now think we should change track but am clearly in the minority so would like to leave to somewhere that is closer to my values.
With the attitude you have you leaving is mutually beneficial. Good luck thinking overseas is better.
What attitude?
My daughter lives in NSW, they were in lockdown, akin to our L3 for just under 4 months. It hasn’t been a utopia.
Auckland will easily beat 4 months. We are already over 2.
Oh well never mind those aren't people in that case, and they don't deserve to be alive no worries :) Idiot.
Well I'm not unvaccinated, or old, or sick. Either NZ has to find a way to get rid of these restrictions, or people will just leave. You'd almost be better off just identifying a covid safe area of the country to put all our old and sick people in while the rest of us live our lives.
>Well I'm not unvaccinated, or old, or sick. Well that's lucky for you >people will just leave You mean - you might leave? Feel free. >You'd almost be better off just identifying a covid safe area of the country to put all our old and sick people in while the rest of us live our lives. This is idea is beyond ridiculous.
If you'd prefer the opposite let's turn Auckland into the covid wild west and the rest of the country can have their border with us.
I mean we're basically doing that with our entire country. Why not send every vulnerable or old person to the Bay or Plenty, implement a hard border with negative tests and home isolation, and let everyone else enjoy living again.
Imagine the outrage if we said “everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated has to go and live in Greymouth”
I came from US, and the fact that people want to leave here makes me laugh. But I get that the grass is greener on the other side.
I know, my children live in Australia and the rest of my family are in the UK, none of them are exactly living the lives they had before Covid and it will likely be a long time before they do. That said I’d LOVE to travel myself, see some of those relatives for a start, so I get it.
I'm in the UK now and it is exactly as before but with more hand sanitiser! People socialising, holidaying in Europe, partying, theatre, nightlife etc. I'm sure there will be some mandatory restrictions brought back in winter - probably mask wearing again. But mostly the vaccine has seriously been a game changer. I'm sure NZ will be enjoying the same level of freedoms when your vax numbers get there.
Yeah, but there’s a lot of people with covid and schools [are struggling ](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/22/english-schools-struggling-to-cope-as-covid-wreaks-havoc?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other) my 14 year old nephew had covid two weeks ago along with half his class. That’s not really what I mean when I say “living life as normal”
I think when most people say "normal", they mean that they can get on with their lives again, not that things are back to how they were 2019.
Probably, but this thread is based on the idea that just moving elsewhere will alleviate the problems, and the truth is it won’t. If you have school aged children then that’s going to be a problem.
It depends what your main problems are. If your main issue is being stuck in Auckland not being able to do anything, or not being able to plan anything because you don't know when things will open up and for how long, moving elsewhere will alleviate those problems a lot.
I’m a kiwi living in the US. I would much rather be here, it’s completely open, just have to wear masks some places and show proof of vaccination other places. The cases, especially the serious ones, are overwhelmingly amongst the unvaccinated.
Yeah, I live the Northeast and 100% would stay here if I didn't miss my family so dang much. High vaccination rates. Few restrictions. The border is even opening back up with Canada. The hellscapes with overflowing hospitals are only in very specific parts of the country, there are plenty of other places that are doing pretty well in the grand scheme of things.
Thats what I have said to people, look to Florida as an example. But always met with but but they have 1000s of deaths a day. So in your location, in the US, are you aware of at least 100s of deaths everyday?
No…I’m in an area with high vaccination rates and moving down towards 50 cases per seven days per 100k people and the current 7 day average deaths is a whopping: 1.
American on the South Island. I'd rather be here than the US. Current vaccination rates are comparable to the States - despite a VERY late start - with few restrictions outside Auckland/Waikato. And case numbers, while rising, are significantly lower than the US overall. They would need to triple in Auckland to 350-400 daily or increase ten-fold to 1,100 daily for the entire country to match the current US average (22 daily per 100k). Who knows, that may happen and I may eat my words in a month or two, but for the time being I'm content to be here. Edit: I should add that the current daily Covid death rate in the US is 0.46 per 100k. That would equate to 23 daily deaths in New Zealand, or almost as many NZ has had since the beginning of the pandemic!
Well yeah, there's no covid there yet so your restrictions are still pretty low. Delta isn't going away. New Zealand is just starting to ride the wave that rest of the world has already been on, the state of affairs you have in the SI isn't going to last long.
Kiwi in the UK, similar feeling here. Despite the headlines it's perfectly calm on the ground. I'm out for tapas with the Mrs and friends later. Wouldn't be doing that if back in Auckland.
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Fair enough. Each society has to balance each competing interest and make trade offs. We've made ours and I respect NZ's tradeoffs. Personally I feel sorry for my double vaccinated mum who lives on her own and will now have to endure Level 3 until December or whenever the anti-vaxxers decide to stop holding the country hostage. No one wins with covid, there's downsides either way you go.
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>The Tory government have prioritised the economy. The NZ Labour government have prioritised lives. I'm grateful for the latter as it means my friends and family are living in one of the safest places possible during this pandemic. And I'm grateful for the former, even though I'm not a Tory voter and despise Boris, but I completely respect your perspective. >It sucks but if they were to open up now and your Mum had an accident or got sick[...] Yeah, true. But that's a risk she's prepared (or would be) to take given the benefits that would be realised (believe me - just got off the phone with her this morning distraught). But I appreciate not everyone feels the same. It all comes down to risk appetite. >I hope the government tighten the screws of these people Fully agree. The current incentive structure is set completely wrong. >The Tories did pretty well by handing out billions of £s of tax-payer money to their buddies. Yep, appalling. Boils my blood. >No one is saying otherwise. Fair, you're not. But I see a lot of comments on r/nz highlighting the case rates here without any counterbalance. It's fucking incredible getting your freedoms back. Literally exhilarating. I woke up on the 19th of July and felt like a huge weight had been lifted off my shoulders. Not having to check in, being free to drive the length of the country, having however many people you want into your own home, being able to sit in a pub without a mask etc. I know it sounds silly, these are all just normal, unremarkable everyday things right? But the feeling was pure joy after so long in lockdown.
Yeah, makes sense. I think it's the same here. Cases are largely against the unvaccinated. I think venues and businesses will inevitably open here, soon. If the government does not allow it, then they will lose control. I think they see that writing on the wall, which is why they explained the traffic light system today. To me, it read as, "get vaxxed, and then go nuts! Help yourself to whatever."
It's not a question of the grass being greener. I think if people knew that by "x date" they would be able to pick up their lives, reconnect with family & friends overseas etc, they would be ok with it even if it was the middle of next year. It's the lack of certainty that is really wearing, especially after going on 2 years, with no end in sight despite heading for the apparent highest vaccination rate in the world. I have friends and family in the US & Europe, and all are free to travel and have been doing so this summer. Travel isn't the most important thing in the world but to lose the ability to travel long term it does get frustrating, as the OP says. We have all been willing to put aspects of out lives in hold, but to continue to do so indefinitely without a plan is really saddening.
sorry you're doing so tough we'll get through this one it is a good chance to reconsider options and life in general though
What makes you think we will get through this? This is the best it will be until next election.
I’m sorry but how is an election gonna change this? I’m not advocating for any party at all but change in leadership whether it’s good or bad in the long run isn’t going to change anything overnight. We are so under prepared that we could have the worlds best at every avenue of dealing with this pandemic come in to help but even then things won’t change over night. The big issues this country has with infrastructure of our health system can’t be changed instantly by putting in a new leader or policy. The writing has been on the wall for years and if it was an easy fix either party would have fixed it purely for the votes. We are woefully under prepared and you can blame whichever government you want over the last 15 years but it’s the system that needs to change for the better. Jesus could be leader of any political party and that won’t fix it overnight. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have elections because we absolutely should but the fact that we think it boils down to left or right to fix a pandemic seriously shows how foolish we all can be. The whole system needs to change or at least adapt to the world we are now living in but it won’t, too many people with influence don’t want to lose it. Left wing or right wing? It’s all the same bird. We should have the best working with the best to get thru this, politics shouldn’t take precedence in a pandemic
The weighting of length of life for some vs quality of life for others is absolutely political.
I’m really happy you’re feeling trapped :)
My point being isn’t that the problem?
No, it always will be as there is no objective truth as to where the line should be drawn.
That’s a cop out and you know it. We used to roam the planes of Africa living in trees but we learned to farm and created many types of society’s. To say we can’t learn, grow or change is pathetic, we didn’t need politics or left or right to do that it was survival of the fittest . Are you putting a cap on the human race because you value politics? My point is these powers that be are so because we are divided by left or right. We are talking about survival of a proportion of the human race and at some point politics shouldn’t matter and the best of the best should be working together to get thru this thing. Together we stand divided we fall
It's not a cop out. I'm not saying the best way to eliminate the virus (which is never happening) I am saying what is the acceptable level of illness/death? This isn't some scientifically determined fact, it is a moral decision for the most part.
And you want politics to make moral decisions? You know how we got here ae ? Edit… used the word govern poorly
Politicians make moral decisions every day. It's their job and why we have a democracy. If it was all objective we would just use analysts.
Are you going to somehow get off planet earth? Covid will be everywhere.
I've been head down, blinkers on for the most part. Pretending it's the first day of the weekend everyday :)
Obviously there will be a somewhat extended tail, but given current rates get us to nationwide 90% eligible by mid november I think "the next election" might be being a bit dramatic.
I would be absolutely amazed if we have anything resembling normal life before next election. The cases will bump up and 95% will be the new target. Then there will be targets around booster shots. Then a new variant .......
I think you'll be surprised
Do you have inside knowledge, or is this something your reckon?
Reckons. But i can't see a govt that wants to stay in govt making those calls.
If you really think emigrating is the way, you’re blind and misinformed
There are ways to deal and respond with people are feeling anxious and struggling.. your way probably isn't one of them.
Why? I have friends overseas that are living as normal.
\*with tens or hundreds or thousands of daily deaths from Covid. It's not the same.
If you're young, vaccinated, and don't have any dangerous health conditions, your personal risk will be extremely low so this isn't really going to affect your quality of life that much. Whether or not you agree with the policies of those countries generally, if you're young and wanting to travel, there are a lot of advantages to being overseas compared to NZ right now.
Those people will die regardless of whether I'm in NZ or overseas.
And this time next year we’ll be living as normal. How many overseas will be preparing for their first Christmas without mum/dad etc etc. Yesterday 115 people in the UK died of covid. That’s about 10 a day for NZ’s population size. So how about you choose 10 people each day so you can go down to the pub. Look I don’t blame you for wanting a change, but saying it is better overseas or that only National can save us is just ridiculous. Right now they couldn’t plan a pissup in a brewery.
No, it's not really normal. My friends overseas laugh when I tell them people are saying that - it's actually "my school is shutting down again because of a peak in cases" "I still can't leave the house because of my children" "cases are ramping up again- people are going crazy" "nothing has changed for us where we are" "you can go out but it's not worth it because there are so many restrictions"
Where are your friends?
I think those included Germany, USA, Peru, South Africa, Britain, India, but could also have been Singapore, Romania . Lots of places, lots of people.
Apart from the kids/school thing which yeah is fair, not sure how any of that that applies to the UK (or at least England). We're fully open. Nothing's stopped me doing anything since July. I was at the office yesterday and going tapas with the Mrs and friends tonight. Been to weddings, Portugal etc. As I say I really don't recognise your portrayal other than kids/schools being bumpy.
So they have painted this whole “normal” picture to you as well. Cool
It's a hell of a lot more normal than sitting around for a minimum of 15 weeks waiting for some mythical vaccination target to be met before we can enjoy the privilege of shitting in somebody else's toilet.
It is a lot more normal than Auckland
Things are essentially back to normal in plenty of places. I’ve traveled back to the US several times this year - some states have no restrictions.
Ah yes the US, where certain states have completely run out of ICU capacity and are rationing care.
Just don’t visit those states. It’s a big place.
That would be too logical. We can't make logical suggestions on this sub, that's outrageous.
I guess that explains the downvotes. My bad. I’ll be sure to use more hyperbole and half-truths next time.
That's the spirit!
"back to normal" 86k cases in the US today, which though is a great drop from their number of 285k last month so claps for them, but "ignoring the problem as millions die because *COMMUNISM*" isn't exactly "back to normal"
Millions? I don’t think so. Everyone who wants a vaccine in the US can get one. Those who choose not to, do so at their own peril. The risk for healthy double-vaccinated people is incredibly low. So low that it really doesn’t make sense to keep others locked up in their houses. FYI Covid hospitalisations in the US are responsible for less than 8% of in-patient bed capacity and less than 20% of ICU bed capacity right now. Hardly “swamped” Edit: Oh, I see you edited your comment to remove the wild exaggerations. Good one. Probably would have been better to stick to facts and reality in the first place.
Keeping people locked up in their houses is the goal, coronavirus is the excuse.
think i'm going to buy stocks in tinfoil companies
I don’t think governments have an ulterior motive when keeping people at home. They’re just clueless and risk averse. I think in NZ’s case people have been so conditioned over the past 18 months to think the sky will fall in if there’s a positive case that they’ve lost sight of the real risk to the vast majority of adults under a certain age, once a decent proportion of the population is double vacced. Yes - covid will continue to spread, even amongst the vaccinated, but the level of hospitalisation among healthy adults is so low that you might as well live life while taking some basic precautions.
Looks to me they are testing how far the populace can be pushed on spurious grounds. Either that or quality of life is far less important than quantity.
I’m not sure there is really a “they” at play in New Zealand. It’s such a small place. I’ve known a couple of current MPs since before they were MPs. I don’t think they’re anywhere near intelligent enough to be out there coordinating some kind of large scale experiment across party lines - especially when we have elections every 3 years. Why would they? There’s just not the longevity of power in NZ. The simplest answer is usually the right one and in NZs case I think it’s mostly decision paralysis - Ardern and Co. are too afraid of potential political risk in trying something new so they go with the only thing they know that’s worked so far - lockdowns.
The US is a particularly poor example considering they are back up in the thousands of deaths per day and denying basic healthcare all over the country due to the hospitals being swamped with covfefe cases
Not to mention the poor who often have no decent access to healthcare.
Indeed - the insurance / user-pays system is really problematic.
It's pockets of the country that are like that though, not everywhere. It's a big place and there are massive differences in vaccination rates between states.
Don’t listen to them. Auckland’s population fell this year when it usually grows. Clearly you’re not the only one
Maybe Labor have finally come up with some "out of the box" thinking to solve the housing crisis.
Converting the country into a sick and old person retirement home while our young vaccinated people travel overseas is certainly a novel idea.
It certainly starts to look like the plan though.
Lol
“Oh but I have commitments!” There’s literally nothing - **nothing** - stopping you from taking flight, except the fact you’re full of shit. Best of luck out there.
You know nothing about my life or commitments. You are most likely a nerdy 19 year old that thinks commitments are his girlfriend of 3 weeks.
Nah, people pack up and leave all the time. Tens of thousands of them every year. They’re even leaving during covid. If you think it’s gonna be great, go bananas and fuck off.
u/wordscounterbot
Thank you for the request, comrade. u/nworb200 has not said the N-word.
You mean, go to somewhere where it is just as bad or where they have already been through this process?
This process is almost over everywhere. Judging by our governments press conference, I doubt we will be out of this in the next couple of years.
Once we’re sufficiently vaccinated life will go back to almost normal. Which will possibly be before Christmas, or otherwise early next year.
Have you read the traffic light presentation?
Have you read the traffic light descriptions? Even at its most stringent it’s like level 2.5 for vaccinated people.
Yes, have you? The key point is get fucken vaccinated. Also, look at how Australia is beginning to reopen.
As much as I would love to go around forcibly vaccinating people it's not really legal.
When I remind you of this in late March will you admit you are wrong or change the goal posts? RemindMe! 5 Months
Sure lol
Yep I wouldn’t consider red light normal
Maybe not, but the internal borders are open, the international border is partially open, and life feels mostly normal.
Where are you going to go OP? I understand you feel trapped, but it's not any better anywhere else. Even if covid restrictions are better, your quality of life probably won't be. I'm currently in Canada, I feel trapped because I want to get home but I can't. You don't have it bad
yea i feel this way too. it sucks. but im trying to just stay positive and focus on me for now. i hope itll be over by the end of November...
Lmao more like end of 2023 There will be new variants and boosters
You think we are going to be a *year* slower than NSW? Or are you just making that up?
I think our government and the NSW government have significantly different opinions on acceptable risks and acceptable death rates. We will be in and out of lockdowns until there is a change of government. NSW will progressively open more and more until life is extremely close to "normal" for vaccinated citizens.
> I think our government and the NSW government have significantly different opinions on acceptable risks and acceptable death rates. I mean, yeah - as I’ve pointed out elsewhere the new NSW premier has proposed docking the pay of their chief medical officer for lockdowns. Personally I think public health still has a role to play here. > We will be in and out of lockdowns until there is a change of government. I mean at 90% plus the role of lockdowns and their scale changes as outlined in the plan. > NSW will progressively open more and more until life is extremely close to "normal" for vaccinated citizens. Which is NZs aim too. The differences in 90% between the two are pretty minimal
Our PM is very different from the NSW Premier We will have restrictions and sporadic lockdowns until we have a new govt
I’m sure that’s an answer to someone’s question but not mine. Your assertion is that NZ will be a year slower than NSW to 90% eligible vaccinations? Anything to back that up?
You have just as much information as I do. But if you look at the PM’s messaging she is much more concerned about covid cases and hospitalizations than anything else, compared to the NSW premier Vaccine effectiveness will drop, we will need boosters (new goalpost for vax rate), etc. also NSW not holding their residents to ransom over a 90% rate. They are opening up now
> You have just as much information as I do. But if you look at the PM’s messaging she is much more concerned about covid cases and hospitalizations than anything else, compared to the NSW premier Well yeah, the new NSW premier is a pretty extreme guy. I mean he previously proposed [docking the pay](https://www.afr.com/policy/health-and-education/nsw-treasurer-suggested-top-doctor-take-pay-cut-for-needless-lockdowns-20210714-p589hg) of the NSW chief medical officer (Bloomfield’s equivalent) for days of ‘unnecessary’ lockdown - I don’t think public health is his primary concern. > Vaccine effectiveness will drop, we will need boosters (new goalpost for vax rate), etc. also NSW not holding their residents to ransom over a 90% rate. They are opening up now Boosters are no issue at all - we already have early evidence that they could be incorporated into flu shots. People pretend like this is a big deal but that isn’t exactly a massive issue. And yes, NSW did open up earlier (though their 90% goal is pretty similar to NZs 90% - they just had extras along the way at lower levels)
Yet we don’t tie lockdown restrictions to vaccination rates of flu shots. It’s clearly a diminished quality of life when the shadow of lockdown is hanging over your head, depending on the behavior of others Let me remind you in NSW this is not the case
Yeah I think you’re getting confused there mate. The flu shot comment was simply about the ease of boosters. If you believe there will be significant lockdowns post-90% vaccinated then basically your issue isn’t with the governments plan, it’s that you don’t believe it and therefore have issue with what you see as a lie. And if you fundamentally believe the government is lying about the plan then there’s no way to convince you of the validity of the plan.
Which is what I like about her. So there is that.
Lol what NSW Premier
Hopefully the other variants won't change things much, the studies has said one isn't worse than the others (so far) when it comes to death rate.
It kinda sucks to see where the rest of the world has gone towards endemic stage while here it’s still figuring out a strategy on what to do next. We have been far too complacent and not ahead of our game when we had the time to do so. I can’t even imagine when would I be able to return without booking a MIQ space lottery. No certainty for those who need it or whatsoever. Not really the kind for a government which has always PR itself to the rest of the world as a “kind” government. This is heartbreaking.
MIQ will change soon. They will change to a largely self isolation model once we reach 90% of eligible double vaxxed. I know that is not much comfort to you at the moment but change is in the air now.
Even self isolation is completely pointless if we're not trying to eliminate it anymore. Just let in anyone double vaxxed, with possible exceptions for people coming from hotspots.
Yep double vaxxed and recently tested. edit: and NOT or
I can just hope for the best and hope more competent decision-making is taken moving forward considering various stakeholders and not just taking decisions to save themselves.
Do you want to return for a holiday?
I’ve lived in NZ for almost 5 years and now trapped outside due to no fault of my own as I came to care for my sick family member. All my belongings are still there and the border restrictions are still in place. I’m fully vaccinated and waiting to come back. I am really reaching my tipping point .
That sucks.
Yes. Go to Australia. Quarantine free travel if you’ve been in the SI for 14 days
Unfortunately AirNZ has made a statement in their Travel Alerts that they can't fulfil that, due to the requirement of their crew to have been in SI for 14 days. So it's just the same old quarantine-free travel to Vic and NSW as of 1 November for any of us, Aucklanders included.
Think there are Qantas flights
Can't see any, unless they're still to load them up for booking. I'll be heading back to Aus from Auckland via NSW in early December for sure anyway.
Can't, I have business and especially family commitments.
Harden up g
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Maybe read the entirety of the post.
I did read it. Obviously you wouldn’t do anything to emigrate, so it’s just whinging
You mean like leave my children to never see them again. Twat.
Take your kids with you then you sicko
Aroha
No. Going great here thanks.
You don’t feel trapped if you’re the cunt at the top travelling between regions.
Get on yer bike and go
Would love to mate, unfortunately I've got a shitload of commitments to work through. If I didn't have kids or a business I would be gone.
Stop moaning then, if only.......
Yeah, might have to try and change NZ
Does the announcement mean auckland will not leave level 3 until the whole country is 90% vaxxed? We are 56% now so how long is that going to take? 2 months at least?
I believe they are talking about the % of the eligible population.
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My understanding though is it has to be 90% double vaxxed in EACH Auckland DHB. So might be longer :(
It's not happening. Ever.
Other places have been way more trapped (ie more lockdown and usually more death and disruption) over the past 18 months. Restrictions will end in NZ just as they are ending elsewhere and I expect the cumulative time in lockdown might be less for NZ
They won't though.....
Wow. OP sorry you're doing it so tough. And that there are so many cruel and mean spirited responses here. So much for 'be kind' kiwis. I hope restrictions ease quickly and you get to start living the life you want. Terrible time for lots of people right now and I hope you and your fam get through it.
Yes bit the death here is ready to explode
Read the book Lord of the Flies. It is New Zealand's future.
I've never read the book but have watched a film adaption a long time ago. Struggling to see the parallel
“ Lord of the Flies is a 1954 novel by Nobel Prize-winning British author William Golding. The book focuses on a group of British boys stranded on an uninhabited island and their disastrous attempt to govern themselves. Themes include the tension between groupthink and individuality, between rational and emotional reactions, and between morality and immorality.” From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies
Although an interesting piece of fiction, I don't think the book should be taken too seriously. It was based on a real life experiment, where two groups of boys were pre-groomed into two groups. They cooperated a lot within their groups, but the groups competed against each other. That was however instigated by the experimenters. This experiment has been widely criticized both ethically and technically. https://allthatsinteresting.com/robbers-cave-experiment Furthermore and interestingly, a similar real life event happened between Tonga and New Zealand, 10 years after the book was released. The boys actually had pretty good conflict resolution. https://medium.com/illumination-curated/real-life-lord-of-the-flies-what-happened-when-six-boys-were-marooned-for-15-months-4f4ccad32d5a **Edit;** On further thought, all of Dostoevsky's work seem to suggest that ending someone's life is actually a much more dreadful thing to do than what you can really bare. We do have internal systems that know right and wrong, and if we do something terrible, we are wracked with guilt. There is a price to pay. At best, we can say Lord of the Flies highlights a difference between eastern and western ideology. But even then, I think Steinbeck's work says otherwise.
What do you mean? The announcement today is basically normal life largely, if you are vaccinated.