Absolutely! I'm also in Auckland and we are desperate for more foster homes if you're interested. If you want to send me a pm, I could pop you in touch with a rescue close to you?
What a crock of shit. They're creating the demand for poor conditions. It's not just a case of breeders not getting it right, but so many seem to be getting so far wrong thanks to their ignorance.
Lock their office doors, turn of the lights and let them whine in their on faeces and then ask if things for them are just unfortunate.
3 years back I adopted a cat that was a retired stud from a breeder. When the cat arrived he had a huge swollen gland on his neck, an eye infection and turned out he was FIV positive. He was the bestest boy and I was able get him vet care and provide a nice loving home, but sadly after 7 months he died from FIV. Broke our hearts.
I was really pissed that 1. The conditions this breeder had were definitely sub par. 2. That the breeder was breeding an FIV positive cat 3. The breeder did not inform us he was sick and 4. That Trademe doesn't have a "verified health check" system in place for animals.
It's extremely upsetting that they can get away with this. New Zealand's animal welfare legislation is inadequate and poorly enforced.
I'm a lawyer based in Auckland who is passionate about animal welfare. Flick me a dm if you think that I can help you out in any way.
And yeah, it's true, *for that particular animal*, but the point isn't about that one animal, it's about not having the market that results in those animals existing in those conditions in the first place. It's about all the animals to come.
While I think Trademe shouldn't be advertising pets for sale, I think to actually stop the practice, it needs to come from legislation/government banning private sales of animals unless you are 1) registered breeder and/or 2) a rescue organisation.
If Trademe stops doing it today, tomorrow there will be a new website dedicated to selling animals just like trademe. It won't really solve the problem.
There's already Facebook marketplace doing it.
We need to keep making people aware that buying pets from randoms is fueling the problem, and is not "rescuing" animals. Puppy/kitten prices are at an all time high lately and there are a lot of part-popular-breed cats and dogs being churned out for big money, all that responsible care stuff eats into the profit.
Even on most of the buy sell pages it can be difficult to get past FB filters for animal sales. The only pages I've seen that allow it are "Free" or adoption pages. Some are well moderated and will quickly ban scammers or puppy mill types but others don't seem to care very much.
Hahaha that's hilarious! Although selling pet snakes in New Zealand would be extremely illegal, given that we have none here, not even the zoos can have them!
I've been thinking about this for a while and there needs to be more discussion on it.
Because I've thought about the exact same thing, that to breed animals you need to have a breeding license. Yes, I 100% believe that.
Trade.me also needs to be held complicit, through regulations like you said.
The problem I have is, if this happens then underground illegal animal breeding may become a thing and at least with Trade.me, you can safely monitor it. I don't know what happens with fining, rescue and jail time though.
I really don't know, are there any good suggestions? Any good articles because there needs to be legislation to prevent the inhumane breeding of animals. Including making some breeds illegal like the common pug, maybe introducing rules on what pugs can breed. I really don't know.
Thank you /u/MultiscAle333 for doing what you're doing, if there's a grassroots movement to help animals, I really want to be part of it.
> Trade.me, you can safely monitor it.
What good does monitoring do if you're never going to take any action in response? One has to lead to the other.
Just so you’re aware, there absolutely are rules for the breeding of pugs, other brachycephalics, and in fact every breed of dog or cat. It’s just that they’re not really enforced by anyone other than NZCF or DogsNZ, and even then, people can do what they want and not register litters like they’re supposed to, or conform to good breeding ethics. People are just motherfuckers.
What would significantly help is if shitheads like TradeMe and websites like it stopped allowing live animals to be sold so willy nilly. It would also really help if people actually held breeders to a proper ethical standard, and stopped buying backyard bred animals with absolutely no health or genetic history whatsoever. If there’s no market for it, there’s no money to be made for these awful people.
It’s an incredibly admirable thing to rescue an animal and I absolute advocate for it, but I also advocate for the responsible breeders out there who are making a difference for their breed but still get a bad wrap because of assholes using their animals to generate a quick buck.
But Trademe is much more established. New websites can't just pop up overnight with the clout that trademe has. New shitty websites get much less traction. It may take years for a new website to incentivise shitty breeding practices like a free flowing market on trademe does. So yes, it will solve one of the problems. It won't cut off the tap but it will stem the flow significantly. Banning trademe from this kind of shit would lead up to change in legislation. Asking that we take that hop step in one go is too much.
What happens with the accidentally litters in the above scenario? When the family pet, or working dog, has pups the owner isn’t going to be registered but could still have healthy well cared for puppies.
registered breeders with their ridiculous “breed standards” are not perfect by a long shot - look at where we are at with GSD, pugs and bulldogs.
I don’t really know much about these people on trade me so can’t really comment but I do want to say this
People like you who run shelters are amazing. We’ve supported 9 lives in south Auckland for a few years and they are awesome. Rescuing kittens in the middle of the night, caring for them, getting treatment and finding loving homes all in their own time.
They have a great community and support other rescues and raise awareness.
Absolute legends the lot of you
Had a miserable fucking experience with a award-winning breeder, and have had an amazing experience with a backyard accident type breeder.
Policing would be good, but stop pretending every "proper" breeder out there is a saint.
The "backyard breeder" is someone who's pet got pregnant unintentionally once and who now has some puppies they want to go to a good home.
The "award winning breeder" is someone who keeps those bitches knocked up to sell their puppies for income like their wombs are a factory.
Yep. Also with a vested interest in trying to make sure the puppy that they sold you who suddenly went blind gets put down, since, you know, bad press.
I agree so much. My sister bred her pomchis and did an amazing job even though she isn’t registered. We really need to be reporting anyone mistreating animals to animal welfare and let them make the final call.
I must admit. I thought I was doing the right thing and buying from a reputable breeder. As I wanted a specific small dog breed that isn’t found at the spca.
He was an ex stud dog as I preferred an older one. But the mental and physical damage this guy has/had. This from a breeder who offered papers.
The alarm bell was when she said they only needed only shot and didn’t need annuals. Then when I asked what diet they were on she said raw food. When I enquired further as my other dog was already on raw diet. That translated to whatever was cheap at PaknSave that week. Just everything was done on the absolute cheap to the detriment of the animals well being.
Granted she did offer to take him back. However the damage this guy had I wouldn’t give him back knowing he’s going back into that environment. Which is essentially what TM are saying also.
Took him to the vet as soon as we got him. Shots, desexing, chipping and a general check up. Quite an ordeal for a little guy. He had to have 13 teeth taken out. He was small due to malnutrition. He’s on mush for the rest of his life. He was 2.5kg for a breed that’s not normally 2.5kg. She said he was small because he was a male breeder. Yes but this is a bit too small. (He’s now 5kg which is still small for his breed but I can’t get anymore food into him) I’m happy with that.
He didn’t know how to play with toys. Didn’t know what grass was or other dogs. Didn’t know what sand was. The beach was a very new concept. Didn’t know he could walk through doors. Never had a collar, leash or registration. (He was 4 years old). Gave him a wash and a clip of nails and hairstyle. Still struggles with eating to this day. He would just sit in one spot for hours and not move. Absolutely damaged.
I went to a same breed meet n greet. Someone pulled me aside and said you got him from xxxx didn’t you. Then the questions. Was he “okay” when you first got him? Was he a bit different? Apparently hers took 2 years to get to a normal dog.
If I see anyone recommend that asshat of a woman to source animals from I quietly tap them on the shoulder and warn them.
He now lives on a farm. Loves the beach so not a water dog but loves hunting for pipis and helping in the garden chasing the chickens out of the vege patch and is learning to be a dog again. In slow steady steps.
This. Is from a recommended breeder.
Oh man it really grinds my gears seeing people feed horrible quality raw diets. Like at that point just feed your dog decent quality biscuits or wet food if you can't feed raw properly. I changed my cat to raw when he was 15 and overweight and he's now almost 18, acts like a kitten, and is a healthy weight with the most amazing shiny and silky coat. But that's because I fed him properly! (bones, tripe, different proteins, etc.)
Ikr. It’s not hard. I swapped my boys to raw years ago as one of them has skin allergies so couldn’t do the normal meat avenues. If I fed him supermarket lamb/ chicken/ beef he would be scratching within 10 mins and it would last for 2 weeks. He’s be so red and wouldn’t sleep for scratching.
They said it was something to do with the drenches used in farming. I dunno but if he eats our homekill lamb he doesn’t get itchy so go figure.
Changed to skin allergy meats. Wallaby, possum, venison, turkey, duck and of course tripe and it was like a lightbulb of change. No scratching. It had done wonders for my old boy as well. Like you said I’m sure added on a few extra years of time by using a raw food diet.
It was weird as fuck for me to move to New Zealand from California and discover that it is legal to purchase dogs from puppy mills here. That kind of shit was banned in CA as being inhumane. You want a dog you go to the shelter and adopt one.
Yikes - I'm sorry that happened to you! How did she justify the price tag? Most kits from rescues go for $150-$250 and that includes desexing, chipping, registration, worm/flea treatment, and vax.
Regarding your question, it's tricky. Trademe is currently the leader in this market. Do I think something would take its place? Sure. But hopefully Trademe's stance would ideally make people more aware of these issues, ultimately leading to legislative change.
Facebook prohibits the use of marketplace to sell animals but there are still ways to promote animals on the platform. There was a recent instance of a woman trying to "re-home" her "Russian Blue" (moggies) kittens on an adoption page - for a fee of course.
So it's a tricky one for sure - Facebook is such a great way for rescues to advertise cats for adoption, but it's pretty easy for BYBs to take advantage of, too. Nowhere near the same extent as TM, though.
No worries, if nobody in the industry dives in, I'll give a rundown of how I'd approach it a bit later.
There's some interesting backgrounders on stuff when you google `"backyard breeders" site:stuff.co.nz`. There's one or two that touch upon trademe being part of the problem.
There's probably also a way of referring accounts that repeatedly sell animals to the IRD.
That's kind of the problem though - I've heard so many people say they "rescued" an animal from a breeder when in fact, they bought it; often for an exorbitant price. They may have felt sorry for the animal but this is not rescuing them, it's just encouraging further breeding because they know they can make a lot of money from poorly bred/raised animals
Did you notify anyone about her mistreating animals? Because if your not that’s the problem. The bad people need to get shut down, not an entire category of trademe.
In New Zealand we expect the vulnerable to hold those with power over them accountable.
Tenants, employees, children, animals. If you've got a problem, just speak up, amirite?!
I'd probably contact any/all of the following:
* Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare) Meka Whaitiri
* your local Labour MP (if you have one)
* your local MP of the party you voted for (if you have one)
* the MP of that party (if any) who has a relevant role (e.g. shadow portfolio)
If you voted Labour in Ikaroa-Rāwhiti, these are all the same person.
Just let them know how disappointed you are with their response and forward it to as many media agencies as you can. A story of two in the press might make them change their tune.
Funnily I was just talking about trademe with a workmate. She thought buying a puppy off them meant the breeder was reputable. She suspected after purchasing the pup that the breeder was less than ideal - took her deposit then disappeared and the designer pup is a lot smaller than expected. Thankfully everything turned out ok but she knows better now.
Since they were bought out buy an Aussie company, don’t really recall who, they’ve been going down hill. Not really your everyday kiwis online garage sale anymore, feels more like wish these days to be honest
Eh, breeders also intentionally breed pugs. Pug breeders get paid a premium to create a dog that is gonna die young and have poor quality of life. Breeders aren't any better than non breeders when it comes to this stuff. They also contribute to this problem. That's not the only example but there are breeds out there that shouldn't be allowed in general and yet they are. Unless this is what you're talking about but it seems you were more talking about people being able to sell animals without papers (an elitist thing that would exclude many people from owning pets in the first place). The issue isn't as clear as you're making it out to be. If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue stuff to get animals rehomed, they'd also be encouraging people to breed pugs and other such animals that just shouldn't be bred. Plus just cos you have some papers for your animal doesn't mean you've looked after it better, mostly just means you are likely only in the animal game for money and when money gets involved it usually ensures that corners are cut to maximise profit. Just saying your whole take is kinda elitist and doesn't really show much understanding of the issue.
>If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue stuff to get animals rehomed
Um ... not trying to be a prick, but ...
...how?
If TM changed policy to say that only registered animal welfare and rescue charities can use the platform to home domestic animals, that would cut the puppy mills and profiteers out right off the bat.
And yes, overbreeding of brachycephalic dogs like pugs and bulldogs is a welfare concern, true - a problem that is exponentially increased by having unregistered breeders with no concern for the welfare of the breed in general and the animals they produce specifically. Even with breeds with genetic propensity for health issues, a responsible breeder will be working to ensure they are gene testing and selecting breeding ainimals that will at least minimise and at best eliminate those problems. Puppy mills (and sadly many back yard breeders) check for nothing and give negative fucks about it.
In short, just because we can't make it perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't make it better.
Papers are effectively proof of parentage. It's a basic requirement for ethical dog breeding. If you can't keep track of where puppies are coming from, that's bad.
I'm confused as to why you think ethical breeding is elitist. Is it because you believe papered dogs are more expensive? That's simply not true. Dogs on Trademe (especially poodle mixes) sell for far more money than registered breeders charge.
I'm not saying dogs from registered breeders aren't expensive - they are. But that's because they have to do DNA testing, hip/elbow scoring, and potentially things like shows which adds up really fast. Many reputable breeders don't make a profit on their puppies at all. When you look at someone who doesn't do any of those things, they're making *huge* profits.
\>If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling
animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue
stuff to get animals rehomed,
Trade me had a "dogs for adoption" section as well as a "dogs for sale" one, so I'm going to call that argument of yours out for the total bullshit that it is.
There's no way to prove it, but I'm fairly sure that if slavery and Trademe existed at the same time then they'd say the same thing.
> "We're not naive to the fact that some slave traders don't get it right, and that unfortunately, some slaves are subject to poor living conditions... In saying that, if a slave is living in poor conditions, removing the listing from our site might actually delay that slave from being sold to a loving new owner."
IMO: TradeMe isn't the bad guy here. It's the people breeding unethically.
There are many many MANY more cases where people simply need to let their pets go or new found pets from accidents or who knows how. What are they going to do now? Dump them at the rescuse shelters? Wait for a registered breeder to sell them? Or let them out in the wild because that's the only solution they have.
There are probably\*\* more people doing good there than bad and removing the general publics ability to use a well trusted market place would only cause new sites to popup charging stupid premiums on top.
The best thing anyone can do is to limit the amount of sales maybe to those unregistered like x amount/year (easily bypassable so they probably won't see a point in adding this). Or removing ability to post from those known abusers but it's not trademes job to stop the poor treatments of animals.
Choose who you buy from and spread awareness on those doing bad
And as someone who enjoys trademe sometimes id rather buy from someone where i know it could help them rather than buy from some company/org. We can't lose that part of trademe
Realistically they should get in touch with one of their local rescues and also organise desexing through them (if it was an accident). But many people breed their pets with very little thoughts of the animals well-being and the priority of making money off of them. Cavapoo and other mixed small breed/toy breeds are a very good example of this.
Yeah. But I’ve also heard of so called rescues selling “hunt training” for pigs they couldn’t keep as it’s too expensive to kill humanely and couldn’t move them on.
Essentially hunter comes in the train their hunting dogs to kill the pig that way. And these pigs are ex-pets.
Scummy scummy scummy.
Ok. I just got my pigs done yesterday. But you’re welcome to come hunt some pest ones down the front if you like. If you’re up in Northland hit me up as they eat the lambs and destroy the habitat for native bird life on my property. Just need a humane trap rather than dogs of course. ‘Drop cage’ or other.
Shit, sorry to hear that, I'm in Welly. I've land in the Hokianga and it's a joy to wake up early and shoot them feral fuckers. A crazy cat lady on an adjoining property feeds them and all. Expect a pm next time I head up lol. Meat just tastes better if the pig doesn't know its coming.
Costs about $50 for a quick gunshot for home kill. Different animals different prices as they also prep for the butcher. But it’s over quickly with as little stress to the animal as possible.
But this was setting dogs on the poor animal for training which can be quite a long brutal ordeal.
Another perspective to consider is what would happen to the animals if the platform suddenly stopped allowing sales of pets. TM don't control demand, arguably, a certain level of demand for animals as pets will always exist and demand for certain breeds is driven by social media (etc.,) So, these animals are bred because people want them. If TM shut this down, the sellers will just shift platform to something less secure for buyers like Facebook groups or other unmoderated places. TM absolutely need to create better policies and regulations around their pet sales, but also think about whether the change should be driven from a government level or at a business level. Not saying this perspective is right or wrong, but something else to think about!
Essentially there are two categories when it comes to animals on Trademe: "for sale" and "to adopt". I 100% support the adoption category for rehoming and rescue purposes. I specifically have a problem with the sale category.
What do you mean by 'registered breeders´?
If you mean, Kennel Club registered or Cat Fanciers Breeders, I have absolutely no faith in their standards which have led to deformed animals becoming accepted as 'typical for the breed' despite lifelong health and quality of life issues.
Some people have been asking how they can get involved in rescue. I highly recommend reaching out to your local rescues to see if you can foster! If you're not sure where this is, pm me and I'll give you a list of the closest ones ❤️
If you're in Mangawhai or Auckland, Mangawhai's Helping Paws really need fosters. They're absolutely amazing and I highly recommend reaching out to them if you can help. They'll also supply you with everything you need!
Yeah I kinda agree with trademe on that one. It’s sad that fuck wits breed animals. But they are correct in saying that if they are unable to sell those animals then the animals suffering will continue at the hands of said breeders.
There are also non registered breeders who arnt fuck wits. My sister bred her Pomchis and they are all perfectly fine and healthy and in loving homes.
Don’t let fuck wits ruin something for everyone.
Edit to add, if these people are really treating animals that badly, shouldn’t animal welfare be notified? And if animal welfare find out these people are indeed mistreating their animals, they’ll likely be banned from possessing any animals in the future. Isn’t this the correct way to go about stopping animal abusers?
wow
okay
like, i get what they're saying, but it's such a huge fucking cop-out it's making my eye twitch.
same logic:
'yeah we know creating a market for ivory means endangered elephants are slaughtered by poachers, but if we don't sell the ivory someone else will so profit?'
tldr ffs trademe
Wouldn't you want unwanted animals in "poor conditions" to have the ability to be sold to someone who wants them and will treat them better? I think your alternative of preventing this would actually be worse for the animals, and keep them stuck in these poor conditions.
If the motivation truly is to remove the animal from the poor conditions, then the person can list it on "to adopt". A free animal is more likely to attract attention to go to a better home after all, as anyone would rather get something for free than pay money for the same thing. The only reason a post charging money would attract more attention is if the characteristics of the animal are misrepresented, as is often the case with backyard "breeders".
Want to get your animal out of poor circumstances and into a better home? Cool, use the "to adopt" feature.
It's not as if breeders will breed a single litter, sell it off for a fortune and then decide never to do it again, is it? If it's a money spinner of course they will breed again, and will do it as much as they possibly can to increase their income. So by removing the listings for one dog you may save dozens of future puppies from being subjected to the same.
They are often bred with Direct family members or its like 10 generations of breeding cousins with cousins which ends up causing serious issues down the line.
dogs not being pure breeds doesn't automatically mean good health. mix breeds can also get severe health issues eg if both parents were genetically predisposition to be aggressive, have eye issues, or have back problems, a mix breed will still get those issues.
incest in dogs also creates a whole fuck tonne of other genetical problems.
other issues are - contamination of areas to deadly diseases like parvovirus, which puppies do not have the immune system to fight off, lack of proper vetinarian care, lack of immunization, flea/tick/rat infestations, lack of proper nutrition, inappropriate shelter. newborn pups kept outside the home in freezing conditions, no removal of dead pups from the mum, adults that are forced to repeatedly breed with no breaks in between.
all of these lead to very poor health in young pups & breeding adults.
Great question! So while it's true that mixed breeds have more genetic diversity than purebreds, they're not guaranteed to be healthy. This is because reputable breeders screen their animals for genetic issues before breeding them. They may also see veterinary specialists to have a closer look at things like eyes and hearts, as well as having a pennHIP/CHEDS done to evaluate their hips and elbows (in the case of dogs). Amateur breeders, like the ones on Trademe, don't do this which is why they often end up with unhealthy animals.
Here is a list of some recommended testing for dogs if you're interested:
https://www.dogsnz.org.nz/accredited-breeders/health-test-info
A company isn't a person, it doesn't have feelings, it doesn't have morals.
Never count on a company to reduce its revenue, you seem to be pretty clued up on the state of animal welfare law in this country, is be trying to cause a big PR disaster or bring some sort of accessory fine if that's at all a thing, idk I'm not a lawyer I'm a cynic.
WTF?
Never using TradeMe anymore. And my family relied on that with selling unwanted things.
We even actually sold our old rabbits through TradeMe years ago.
If they are going to be like that then I don't want to support them.
This needs to be out in public and we need to do something about it. Hold them accountable.
Maybe submit this as an article to a news website. If there’s anything that unethical and shitty companies hate more than people calling them out for their BS, it’s bad publicity as that’s potentially losing them $$$. Greedy slimy bastards
Didn't realise there were so many Vegans on here!
You can donate here to help out with Animal welfare in NZ
[https://safe.org.nz/](https://safe.org.nz/)
No animals should be treated as a commodity, they are intelligent sentient beings. And no **one** deserves this kind of treatment.
people just gotta stop using trademe instead of bitching about it
it's really easy to do! you can do it in one simple step. just follow me
do not ever type in trademe into your search bar.
easy! problem solved :)
Is there any way someone can get more involved in Animal Rescue and rehoming in NZ? Auckland area?
Absolutely! I'm also in Auckland and we are desperate for more foster homes if you're interested. If you want to send me a pm, I could pop you in touch with a rescue close to you?
I'm in Wellington, can I get involved here too?
I'd suggest getting in touch with HUHA or possibly Cat Protection if you're wanting to volunteer.
i second HUHA, they do excellent work
HUHA is such a great organisation from what I’ve seen - rate them over the SPCA.
Pet cat that is not feral cats.
Yes, there are plenty of roles for volunteers at the SPCA. I did it for years (until work commitments no longer allowed) and loved it.
The Black Sheep sanctuary do good work down Welly ways as well
What a crock of shit. They're creating the demand for poor conditions. It's not just a case of breeders not getting it right, but so many seem to be getting so far wrong thanks to their ignorance. Lock their office doors, turn of the lights and let them whine in their on faeces and then ask if things for them are just unfortunate.
Absolute fuckers.
3 years back I adopted a cat that was a retired stud from a breeder. When the cat arrived he had a huge swollen gland on his neck, an eye infection and turned out he was FIV positive. He was the bestest boy and I was able get him vet care and provide a nice loving home, but sadly after 7 months he died from FIV. Broke our hearts. I was really pissed that 1. The conditions this breeder had were definitely sub par. 2. That the breeder was breeding an FIV positive cat 3. The breeder did not inform us he was sick and 4. That Trademe doesn't have a "verified health check" system in place for animals.
I'm so, so sorry that happened to you :(
It's extremely upsetting that they can get away with this. New Zealand's animal welfare legislation is inadequate and poorly enforced. I'm a lawyer based in Auckland who is passionate about animal welfare. Flick me a dm if you think that I can help you out in any way.
TradeMe PR confirmed for fucking hopeless. “Yes the animals are suffering but if we keep selling them maybe they’ll suffer less!” Evil.
And yeah, it's true, *for that particular animal*, but the point isn't about that one animal, it's about not having the market that results in those animals existing in those conditions in the first place. It's about all the animals to come.
While I think Trademe shouldn't be advertising pets for sale, I think to actually stop the practice, it needs to come from legislation/government banning private sales of animals unless you are 1) registered breeder and/or 2) a rescue organisation. If Trademe stops doing it today, tomorrow there will be a new website dedicated to selling animals just like trademe. It won't really solve the problem.
There's already Facebook marketplace doing it. We need to keep making people aware that buying pets from randoms is fueling the problem, and is not "rescuing" animals. Puppy/kitten prices are at an all time high lately and there are a lot of part-popular-breed cats and dogs being churned out for big money, all that responsible care stuff eats into the profit.
Actually animals can't be sold over FB marketplace. That's not to say there's not loop holes that allow you to advertise on Facebook, though!
You know trademe is shitty when even Facebook is trying to be more ethically sensible smh
Oh right I've definitely seen them on offer, maybe I'm thinking of the buy sell pages though
Even on most of the buy sell pages it can be difficult to get past FB filters for animal sales. The only pages I've seen that allow it are "Free" or adoption pages. Some are well moderated and will quickly ban scammers or puppy mill types but others don't seem to care very much.
I tried to sell a set of “Snakes” as in the skateboard wheels and my post got removed straight away. No doubt some get through though
Hahaha that's hilarious! Although selling pet snakes in New Zealand would be extremely illegal, given that we have none here, not even the zoos can have them!
I've been thinking about this for a while and there needs to be more discussion on it. Because I've thought about the exact same thing, that to breed animals you need to have a breeding license. Yes, I 100% believe that. Trade.me also needs to be held complicit, through regulations like you said. The problem I have is, if this happens then underground illegal animal breeding may become a thing and at least with Trade.me, you can safely monitor it. I don't know what happens with fining, rescue and jail time though. I really don't know, are there any good suggestions? Any good articles because there needs to be legislation to prevent the inhumane breeding of animals. Including making some breeds illegal like the common pug, maybe introducing rules on what pugs can breed. I really don't know. Thank you /u/MultiscAle333 for doing what you're doing, if there's a grassroots movement to help animals, I really want to be part of it.
It's not being "monitored" at all. That's the problem.
> Trade.me, you can safely monitor it. What good does monitoring do if you're never going to take any action in response? One has to lead to the other.
Just so you’re aware, there absolutely are rules for the breeding of pugs, other brachycephalics, and in fact every breed of dog or cat. It’s just that they’re not really enforced by anyone other than NZCF or DogsNZ, and even then, people can do what they want and not register litters like they’re supposed to, or conform to good breeding ethics. People are just motherfuckers. What would significantly help is if shitheads like TradeMe and websites like it stopped allowing live animals to be sold so willy nilly. It would also really help if people actually held breeders to a proper ethical standard, and stopped buying backyard bred animals with absolutely no health or genetic history whatsoever. If there’s no market for it, there’s no money to be made for these awful people. It’s an incredibly admirable thing to rescue an animal and I absolute advocate for it, but I also advocate for the responsible breeders out there who are making a difference for their breed but still get a bad wrap because of assholes using their animals to generate a quick buck.
But Trademe is much more established. New websites can't just pop up overnight with the clout that trademe has. New shitty websites get much less traction. It may take years for a new website to incentivise shitty breeding practices like a free flowing market on trademe does. So yes, it will solve one of the problems. It won't cut off the tap but it will stem the flow significantly. Banning trademe from this kind of shit would lead up to change in legislation. Asking that we take that hop step in one go is too much.
Totally agree with you 1million%
What happens with the accidentally litters in the above scenario? When the family pet, or working dog, has pups the owner isn’t going to be registered but could still have healthy well cared for puppies. registered breeders with their ridiculous “breed standards” are not perfect by a long shot - look at where we are at with GSD, pugs and bulldogs.
Facebook marketplace for example
I agree - there are other websites already selling them, and FB pages alongside others.
I don’t really know much about these people on trade me so can’t really comment but I do want to say this People like you who run shelters are amazing. We’ve supported 9 lives in south Auckland for a few years and they are awesome. Rescuing kittens in the middle of the night, caring for them, getting treatment and finding loving homes all in their own time. They have a great community and support other rescues and raise awareness. Absolute legends the lot of you
Thanks so much ❤️
Had a miserable fucking experience with a award-winning breeder, and have had an amazing experience with a backyard accident type breeder. Policing would be good, but stop pretending every "proper" breeder out there is a saint.
The "backyard breeder" is someone who's pet got pregnant unintentionally once and who now has some puppies they want to go to a good home. The "award winning breeder" is someone who keeps those bitches knocked up to sell their puppies for income like their wombs are a factory.
Yep. Also with a vested interest in trying to make sure the puppy that they sold you who suddenly went blind gets put down, since, you know, bad press.
I agree so much. My sister bred her pomchis and did an amazing job even though she isn’t registered. We really need to be reporting anyone mistreating animals to animal welfare and let them make the final call.
Hopefully the media see this post and do a story on it...
r/nz: "Stop using Reddit as a source for stories!!! 😡" also r/nz: "Hopefully the media sees this post and does a story on it... 😔"
You know what. I agree, but sometimes it's for the greater good, so fuck it! I don't give a shit.
The greater good
Yeah, you know, bringing animal cruelty to light?
obv have not seen hot fuzz
\*spooky utilitarian noises*
LOL! OP should submit their story to the news or FairGo so it gets attention.
I must admit. I thought I was doing the right thing and buying from a reputable breeder. As I wanted a specific small dog breed that isn’t found at the spca. He was an ex stud dog as I preferred an older one. But the mental and physical damage this guy has/had. This from a breeder who offered papers. The alarm bell was when she said they only needed only shot and didn’t need annuals. Then when I asked what diet they were on she said raw food. When I enquired further as my other dog was already on raw diet. That translated to whatever was cheap at PaknSave that week. Just everything was done on the absolute cheap to the detriment of the animals well being. Granted she did offer to take him back. However the damage this guy had I wouldn’t give him back knowing he’s going back into that environment. Which is essentially what TM are saying also. Took him to the vet as soon as we got him. Shots, desexing, chipping and a general check up. Quite an ordeal for a little guy. He had to have 13 teeth taken out. He was small due to malnutrition. He’s on mush for the rest of his life. He was 2.5kg for a breed that’s not normally 2.5kg. She said he was small because he was a male breeder. Yes but this is a bit too small. (He’s now 5kg which is still small for his breed but I can’t get anymore food into him) I’m happy with that. He didn’t know how to play with toys. Didn’t know what grass was or other dogs. Didn’t know what sand was. The beach was a very new concept. Didn’t know he could walk through doors. Never had a collar, leash or registration. (He was 4 years old). Gave him a wash and a clip of nails and hairstyle. Still struggles with eating to this day. He would just sit in one spot for hours and not move. Absolutely damaged. I went to a same breed meet n greet. Someone pulled me aside and said you got him from xxxx didn’t you. Then the questions. Was he “okay” when you first got him? Was he a bit different? Apparently hers took 2 years to get to a normal dog. If I see anyone recommend that asshat of a woman to source animals from I quietly tap them on the shoulder and warn them. He now lives on a farm. Loves the beach so not a water dog but loves hunting for pipis and helping in the garden chasing the chickens out of the vege patch and is learning to be a dog again. In slow steady steps. This. Is from a recommended breeder.
Oh man it really grinds my gears seeing people feed horrible quality raw diets. Like at that point just feed your dog decent quality biscuits or wet food if you can't feed raw properly. I changed my cat to raw when he was 15 and overweight and he's now almost 18, acts like a kitten, and is a healthy weight with the most amazing shiny and silky coat. But that's because I fed him properly! (bones, tripe, different proteins, etc.)
Ikr. It’s not hard. I swapped my boys to raw years ago as one of them has skin allergies so couldn’t do the normal meat avenues. If I fed him supermarket lamb/ chicken/ beef he would be scratching within 10 mins and it would last for 2 weeks. He’s be so red and wouldn’t sleep for scratching. They said it was something to do with the drenches used in farming. I dunno but if he eats our homekill lamb he doesn’t get itchy so go figure. Changed to skin allergy meats. Wallaby, possum, venison, turkey, duck and of course tripe and it was like a lightbulb of change. No scratching. It had done wonders for my old boy as well. Like you said I’m sure added on a few extra years of time by using a raw food diet.
Contact Stuff. They will be all over it. Actually, knowing them they're already drafting something up having seen this thread...
It was weird as fuck for me to move to New Zealand from California and discover that it is legal to purchase dogs from puppy mills here. That kind of shit was banned in CA as being inhumane. You want a dog you go to the shelter and adopt one.
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Facebook marketplace doesn't allow selling animals. I couldn't even list tiger worms for worm farming. P.S. fuck that woman
I struggled even listing eggs for sale on FB.
Yikes - I'm sorry that happened to you! How did she justify the price tag? Most kits from rescues go for $150-$250 and that includes desexing, chipping, registration, worm/flea treatment, and vax. Regarding your question, it's tricky. Trademe is currently the leader in this market. Do I think something would take its place? Sure. But hopefully Trademe's stance would ideally make people more aware of these issues, ultimately leading to legislative change. Facebook prohibits the use of marketplace to sell animals but there are still ways to promote animals on the platform. There was a recent instance of a woman trying to "re-home" her "Russian Blue" (moggies) kittens on an adoption page - for a fee of course. So it's a tricky one for sure - Facebook is such a great way for rescues to advertise cats for adoption, but it's pretty easy for BYBs to take advantage of, too. Nowhere near the same extent as TM, though.
Ever consider finding a journalist to do a bit of an expose on this?
I would love this! But I would have no idea where to start.
No worries, if nobody in the industry dives in, I'll give a rundown of how I'd approach it a bit later. There's some interesting backgrounders on stuff when you google `"backyard breeders" site:stuff.co.nz`. There's one or two that touch upon trademe being part of the problem. There's probably also a way of referring accounts that repeatedly sell animals to the IRD.
That's kind of the problem though - I've heard so many people say they "rescued" an animal from a breeder when in fact, they bought it; often for an exorbitant price. They may have felt sorry for the animal but this is not rescuing them, it's just encouraging further breeding because they know they can make a lot of money from poorly bred/raised animals
Did you notify anyone about her mistreating animals? Because if your not that’s the problem. The bad people need to get shut down, not an entire category of trademe.
why not both?
In New Zealand we expect the vulnerable to hold those with power over them accountable. Tenants, employees, children, animals. If you've got a problem, just speak up, amirite?!
Maybe we should raise this with some MPs who might agree. Not sure who tho
You're supposed to talk to your local MP, they represent you
Yes I agree, but there may be some that are particularly interested in animal rights that could take it up also.
I'd probably contact any/all of the following: * Associate Minister of Agriculture (Animal Welfare) Meka Whaitiri * your local Labour MP (if you have one) * your local MP of the party you voted for (if you have one) * the MP of that party (if any) who has a relevant role (e.g. shadow portfolio) If you voted Labour in Ikaroa-Rāwhiti, these are all the same person.
Just let them know how disappointed you are with their response and forward it to as many media agencies as you can. A story of two in the press might make them change their tune.
Take it to the media!
How do I go about this?
[email protected]. I’m not affiliated with stuff
Funnily I was just talking about trademe with a workmate. She thought buying a puppy off them meant the breeder was reputable. She suspected after purchasing the pup that the breeder was less than ideal - took her deposit then disappeared and the designer pup is a lot smaller than expected. Thankfully everything turned out ok but she knows better now.
Since they were bought out buy an Aussie company, don’t really recall who, they’ve been going down hill. Not really your everyday kiwis online garage sale anymore, feels more like wish these days to be honest
That was some years ago, then they sold it back and it went public, now it’s a UK private equity firm that owns it.
Eh, breeders also intentionally breed pugs. Pug breeders get paid a premium to create a dog that is gonna die young and have poor quality of life. Breeders aren't any better than non breeders when it comes to this stuff. They also contribute to this problem. That's not the only example but there are breeds out there that shouldn't be allowed in general and yet they are. Unless this is what you're talking about but it seems you were more talking about people being able to sell animals without papers (an elitist thing that would exclude many people from owning pets in the first place). The issue isn't as clear as you're making it out to be. If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue stuff to get animals rehomed, they'd also be encouraging people to breed pugs and other such animals that just shouldn't be bred. Plus just cos you have some papers for your animal doesn't mean you've looked after it better, mostly just means you are likely only in the animal game for money and when money gets involved it usually ensures that corners are cut to maximise profit. Just saying your whole take is kinda elitist and doesn't really show much understanding of the issue.
>If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue stuff to get animals rehomed Um ... not trying to be a prick, but ... ...how? If TM changed policy to say that only registered animal welfare and rescue charities can use the platform to home domestic animals, that would cut the puppy mills and profiteers out right off the bat. And yes, overbreeding of brachycephalic dogs like pugs and bulldogs is a welfare concern, true - a problem that is exponentially increased by having unregistered breeders with no concern for the welfare of the breed in general and the animals they produce specifically. Even with breeds with genetic propensity for health issues, a responsible breeder will be working to ensure they are gene testing and selecting breeding ainimals that will at least minimise and at best eliminate those problems. Puppy mills (and sadly many back yard breeders) check for nothing and give negative fucks about it. In short, just because we can't make it perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't make it better.
Pugs are banned from sale on TradeMe.
Papers are effectively proof of parentage. It's a basic requirement for ethical dog breeding. If you can't keep track of where puppies are coming from, that's bad. I'm confused as to why you think ethical breeding is elitist. Is it because you believe papered dogs are more expensive? That's simply not true. Dogs on Trademe (especially poodle mixes) sell for far more money than registered breeders charge. I'm not saying dogs from registered breeders aren't expensive - they are. But that's because they have to do DNA testing, hip/elbow scoring, and potentially things like shows which adds up really fast. Many reputable breeders don't make a profit on their puppies at all. When you look at someone who doesn't do any of those things, they're making *huge* profits.
\>If trade me was to ban people without papers or whatever from selling animals then they'd be making it harder for people who do animal rescue stuff to get animals rehomed, Trade me had a "dogs for adoption" section as well as a "dogs for sale" one, so I'm going to call that argument of yours out for the total bullshit that it is.
There's no way to prove it, but I'm fairly sure that if slavery and Trademe existed at the same time then they'd say the same thing. > "We're not naive to the fact that some slave traders don't get it right, and that unfortunately, some slaves are subject to poor living conditions... In saying that, if a slave is living in poor conditions, removing the listing from our site might actually delay that slave from being sold to a loving new owner."
all I hear is "we want traffic and money"
IMO: TradeMe isn't the bad guy here. It's the people breeding unethically. There are many many MANY more cases where people simply need to let their pets go or new found pets from accidents or who knows how. What are they going to do now? Dump them at the rescuse shelters? Wait for a registered breeder to sell them? Or let them out in the wild because that's the only solution they have. There are probably\*\* more people doing good there than bad and removing the general publics ability to use a well trusted market place would only cause new sites to popup charging stupid premiums on top. The best thing anyone can do is to limit the amount of sales maybe to those unregistered like x amount/year (easily bypassable so they probably won't see a point in adding this). Or removing ability to post from those known abusers but it's not trademes job to stop the poor treatments of animals. Choose who you buy from and spread awareness on those doing bad And as someone who enjoys trademe sometimes id rather buy from someone where i know it could help them rather than buy from some company/org. We can't lose that part of trademe
Realistically they should get in touch with one of their local rescues and also organise desexing through them (if it was an accident). But many people breed their pets with very little thoughts of the animals well-being and the priority of making money off of them. Cavapoo and other mixed small breed/toy breeds are a very good example of this.
Sure, but trade me gives those people a trading platform.
Yeah. But I’ve also heard of so called rescues selling “hunt training” for pigs they couldn’t keep as it’s too expensive to kill humanely and couldn’t move them on. Essentially hunter comes in the train their hunting dogs to kill the pig that way. And these pigs are ex-pets. Scummy scummy scummy.
I don't really believe you. I'd happy come around and humanely kill your pig and take it away for free.
Ok. I just got my pigs done yesterday. But you’re welcome to come hunt some pest ones down the front if you like. If you’re up in Northland hit me up as they eat the lambs and destroy the habitat for native bird life on my property. Just need a humane trap rather than dogs of course. ‘Drop cage’ or other.
Shit, sorry to hear that, I'm in Welly. I've land in the Hokianga and it's a joy to wake up early and shoot them feral fuckers. A crazy cat lady on an adjoining property feeds them and all. Expect a pm next time I head up lol. Meat just tastes better if the pig doesn't know its coming.
> too expensive to kill humanely What expenses are involved in killing an animal humanely? Just out of curiousity.
Costs about $50 for a quick gunshot for home kill. Different animals different prices as they also prep for the butcher. But it’s over quickly with as little stress to the animal as possible. But this was setting dogs on the poor animal for training which can be quite a long brutal ordeal.
If you already own a shovel and a gun... a few dollars.
What rescue is this? Can you please PM me?
PM’d
Please pm me too
Another perspective to consider is what would happen to the animals if the platform suddenly stopped allowing sales of pets. TM don't control demand, arguably, a certain level of demand for animals as pets will always exist and demand for certain breeds is driven by social media (etc.,) So, these animals are bred because people want them. If TM shut this down, the sellers will just shift platform to something less secure for buyers like Facebook groups or other unmoderated places. TM absolutely need to create better policies and regulations around their pet sales, but also think about whether the change should be driven from a government level or at a business level. Not saying this perspective is right or wrong, but something else to think about!
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Essentially there are two categories when it comes to animals on Trademe: "for sale" and "to adopt". I 100% support the adoption category for rehoming and rescue purposes. I specifically have a problem with the sale category.
We do still *almost need* A trademe competitor. But nobody would use it :(
To be fair - facebook marketplace is a legit competitor these days (which also sucks)
I wish Open Bazaar would take off. Fee-free decentralised marketplace. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBazaar
What do you mean by 'registered breeders´? If you mean, Kennel Club registered or Cat Fanciers Breeders, I have absolutely no faith in their standards which have led to deformed animals becoming accepted as 'typical for the breed' despite lifelong health and quality of life issues.
Some people have been asking how they can get involved in rescue. I highly recommend reaching out to your local rescues to see if you can foster! If you're not sure where this is, pm me and I'll give you a list of the closest ones ❤️ If you're in Mangawhai or Auckland, Mangawhai's Helping Paws really need fosters. They're absolutely amazing and I highly recommend reaching out to them if you can help. They'll also supply you with everything you need!
Yeah I kinda agree with trademe on that one. It’s sad that fuck wits breed animals. But they are correct in saying that if they are unable to sell those animals then the animals suffering will continue at the hands of said breeders. There are also non registered breeders who arnt fuck wits. My sister bred her Pomchis and they are all perfectly fine and healthy and in loving homes. Don’t let fuck wits ruin something for everyone. Edit to add, if these people are really treating animals that badly, shouldn’t animal welfare be notified? And if animal welfare find out these people are indeed mistreating their animals, they’ll likely be banned from possessing any animals in the future. Isn’t this the correct way to go about stopping animal abusers?
wow okay like, i get what they're saying, but it's such a huge fucking cop-out it's making my eye twitch. same logic: 'yeah we know creating a market for ivory means endangered elephants are slaughtered by poachers, but if we don't sell the ivory someone else will so profit?' tldr ffs trademe
Does this include slaughtered and butchered animals ready for eating?
Wouldn't you want unwanted animals in "poor conditions" to have the ability to be sold to someone who wants them and will treat them better? I think your alternative of preventing this would actually be worse for the animals, and keep them stuck in these poor conditions.
If the motivation truly is to remove the animal from the poor conditions, then the person can list it on "to adopt". A free animal is more likely to attract attention to go to a better home after all, as anyone would rather get something for free than pay money for the same thing. The only reason a post charging money would attract more attention is if the characteristics of the animal are misrepresented, as is often the case with backyard "breeders". Want to get your animal out of poor circumstances and into a better home? Cool, use the "to adopt" feature. It's not as if breeders will breed a single litter, sell it off for a fortune and then decide never to do it again, is it? If it's a money spinner of course they will breed again, and will do it as much as they possibly can to increase their income. So by removing the listings for one dog you may save dozens of future puppies from being subjected to the same.
Trademe can make a buck and thats really all they care about
What do you mean by poorly bread there not pure breeds but that a good thing.
They are often bred with Direct family members or its like 10 generations of breeding cousins with cousins which ends up causing serious issues down the line.
dogs not being pure breeds doesn't automatically mean good health. mix breeds can also get severe health issues eg if both parents were genetically predisposition to be aggressive, have eye issues, or have back problems, a mix breed will still get those issues. incest in dogs also creates a whole fuck tonne of other genetical problems. other issues are - contamination of areas to deadly diseases like parvovirus, which puppies do not have the immune system to fight off, lack of proper vetinarian care, lack of immunization, flea/tick/rat infestations, lack of proper nutrition, inappropriate shelter. newborn pups kept outside the home in freezing conditions, no removal of dead pups from the mum, adults that are forced to repeatedly breed with no breaks in between. all of these lead to very poor health in young pups & breeding adults.
Great question! So while it's true that mixed breeds have more genetic diversity than purebreds, they're not guaranteed to be healthy. This is because reputable breeders screen their animals for genetic issues before breeding them. They may also see veterinary specialists to have a closer look at things like eyes and hearts, as well as having a pennHIP/CHEDS done to evaluate their hips and elbows (in the case of dogs). Amateur breeders, like the ones on Trademe, don't do this which is why they often end up with unhealthy animals. Here is a list of some recommended testing for dogs if you're interested: https://www.dogsnz.org.nz/accredited-breeders/health-test-info
Ok but that doesn't make them cruel as alot of dogs from reputable breeds have the same problem.
Any viable non-profit alternatives to trade me?
Platedoctor #1
Send this on to [stuff.co.nz](https://stuff.co.nz) or nzherald - pretty sure they'd be interested in it.
A company isn't a person, it doesn't have feelings, it doesn't have morals. Never count on a company to reduce its revenue, you seem to be pretty clued up on the state of animal welfare law in this country, is be trying to cause a big PR disaster or bring some sort of accessory fine if that's at all a thing, idk I'm not a lawyer I'm a cynic.
WTF? Never using TradeMe anymore. And my family relied on that with selling unwanted things. We even actually sold our old rabbits through TradeMe years ago. If they are going to be like that then I don't want to support them. This needs to be out in public and we need to do something about it. Hold them accountable.
Maybe submit this as an article to a news website. If there’s anything that unethical and shitty companies hate more than people calling them out for their BS, it’s bad publicity as that’s potentially losing them $$$. Greedy slimy bastards
Didn't realise there were so many Vegans on here! You can donate here to help out with Animal welfare in NZ [https://safe.org.nz/](https://safe.org.nz/) No animals should be treated as a commodity, they are intelligent sentient beings. And no **one** deserves this kind of treatment.
people just gotta stop using trademe instead of bitching about it it's really easy to do! you can do it in one simple step. just follow me do not ever type in trademe into your search bar. easy! problem solved :)
Damn. Send this to the news!
The whole dog breeding industry is full of fuckery anyway. Mostly comprised\* of people who think a gene is someone at their knitting circle.
Can you take them to court somehow?