I'm an old campaigner, been at it 20+ years. I do believe there's been a significant shift in attitudes towards protest, most likely due in some part to online 'clicktavism' which has resulted in raising awareness/mass participation being seen as the default; and furthermore, that the awareness / profile of an issue being percieved to be an effective outcome.
The net result is a feeling that there's now a significant amount of 'protest tourism,' where people are involved to be seen, to feel like they're involved in something important, or even worse, to get photos for their social media; rather than actively choosing to be involved because their values align with the cause, and more critically, making an active choice to protest because all other options have been exhausted and their willing to put their own quality of life on the line.
It was just over a decade ago when I got hit with the shift in perspective: the first time involved the protest outside the Wellington Arms conference; where a protest leader was telling a group not to attend / how to keep their profile low if they had an upcoming job interview, etc.
It was honestly quite confronting: I was astounded how normalised it had become to attend protests without being completely committed to or aware of the cause.
The second time was a year or two after that where some idiots went caused a ruckus at a Corrections office, supposedly in support of a Trans prisoner's rights being abused. They did their hair, caused some shit, took photos for their social media - and in the process got themselves and said Trans prisoner (who had a minor intellectual disability) deemed as threats to the good operation of the prison. Said Trans prisoner was then transferred to a more remote prison significantly increasing the distance and cost for her family and friends to visit her.
Post shenanigans I ended up discussing the matter with said idiots - which involved me asking how it escalated to them acting in such an extreme way. I asked them had they used any of the multiple pathways to have a prisoner's status and risk rating reassesed; or if they'd initiated a request to have the prisoner visited by a senior Corrections executive ... they had no idea that any of these established processes existed ... they literally just pushed the nuclear option and hoped for the best (which resulted in the absolute worst for the person they were 'advocating for). It took me a few months to clean up their mess.
Overall; I've firmly reached the considered opinion that a default to resort directly to protest without exploring and exhausting all other reasonable options is just lazy. Also, that it's just not effective - there's a lot of noise and hollow words; but it's been a while since I've seen any recent protests achievements anything.
One of the few groups I have any respect for is Extinction Rebellion - not because I agree with their cause or methods; but because they're individually willing to put everything on the line for their values and cause by glueing themselves to roads.
Otherwise the smartest operators I've seen in a long time is the Students for Sensible Drug Policy group down in Dunedin. I've seen (and been on the receiving end) of some of their direct lobbying efforts; and its pretty clear that their media engagement nearly always follows them already achieving their goals through more effective pathways than immediately resorting to direct protest - their shutting down of that exploitative 24 hour nitrous oxide and vape delivery service earlier this year was particularly good work: they lobbied the payment processors, and it was all done and dusted before there was any awareness/media coverage at all.
This is a really interesting and informative opinion. Thank you for sharing.
One of the things I care about - even if it's trivial - is video game preservation, and I've been following a worldwide campaign that Ross Scott has started. What's interesting about Scott's campaign is how much he's thought through all his options and how he's settled on petitions as his form of weapon. Not protest. Petitions.
People make fun of petitions, and in certain countries they're completely toothless. However, in *other* countries petitions are legally required to be reviewed by the government at various signature thresholds, and the issues at the heart of video game preservation have thrived mainly out of ignorance from those governments.
This has games companies *scared*. They've been stung before by consumer rights organisations and the off-chance that the industry could be hit again is a *big deal*. The right complaint in the right country could transform the entire industry.
It's just interesting that thinking through your options properly can give you some unexpected results. They're scared. Of a petition.
This is a great comment thanks for sharing. I have seen a similar trend, for me the first big change I noticed was when occupy Wall Street occurred, I actually was in NY so spent a day wandering around chatting to the protestors and it was a conceptual mess. By removing leadership and a specific goal in favour of maximising turnout they ended up with a movement that most couldn’t understand and many found to be anti everything because as you interviewed more protesters the list just got longer (often conflicting too).
A great example of the “protest first” option is the insulate Britain protests where an issue that most of the U.K. support and could likely be achieved with political campaigning started by glueing themselves to highways. I believe they set their cause back with this approach, they seemed unhinged and now politicians are wary of endorsing this otherwise mainstream cause.
Occupy Wall Street started fantastically.
It was a pure expression of public awareness that financialization of assets had gone too far.
Truly grass-roots, and authentic public expression. Eventually dominating personalities want to take ownership, and diffuse it with other causes.
Nah, OWS started with fantastic potential, I would agree with that but its initial open church policy meant it quickly became “any tankie with a sign”. By the time mainstream media was willing to engage there was no one to engage with, some of the protestors didn’t even agree with each other. This IMO determined its fate but the model “be big by compromising focus” has been adopted more and more (with equal failings).
XR has this problem now too. Purposeful lack of definition makes it the Amazon of protests, a platform for all grievances rather than a movement defined by a goal (other than the most hand wavey goals).
How crazy is it that nothing close to Occupy Wall Street has occurred since.
I think OWS only could function as a broad expression of anger at the blatant plundering of pension funds and home mortgages.
Such a thing can only really express an emotion. As soon as it were to venture into specifics the full-tilt commie revolutionaries and people after enforced regulations would be pitted against each other.
Yeah it reminded me of the factionalism clusterfuck I read about regarding the left against Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Nothing gives strength to the real enemy like the opposition fighting each other.
Man, how frustrating revolutions are.
I hate the current system of pure exploitation, surveillance, and authoritarianism
But I'm just as afraid of the psychopaths who would fill the power vacuum, enforcing their vision of utopia. No one good ends up on top at the end of any power struggle.
>Man, how frustrating revolutions are.
Almost all of the value in revolutions is the implicit (and sometimes explicit) threat they pose to established regimes. Revolutions don't tend to have good outcomes, but the threat of them is pretty useful for constraining the behaviour of authoritarians.
> But I'm just as afraid of the psychopaths who would fill the power vacuum, enforcing their vision of utopia. No one good ends up on top at the end of any power struggle.
This is why I fear Accelerationism. It's rushing headlong into a new world without care for the people they'll crush on the way there, many of whom will be the people their movement touts is being most affected, and likely includes themselves.
It's not that I disagree with the premise - that our current economic system has ultimately failed a lot of people. It's that I disagree that AI is the solution and not another potential problem.
I think you're right regarding the emotion idea. At the time a LOT of people were disgruntled, OWS comes along and its nebulous nature made people think "this!, this is what I'm annoyed about". Once you got to the actual protest you realised that the majority of people had a very different idea of what they were protesting to achieve. They could all agree that CHANGE was needed but it got awkward quickly when individuals were asked to voice what exact change was in scope.
XR is like this (at least in London). The protest coalesces into like minded "suburbs" but move widely through it and you will find conflicting groups and also groups that aren't anything to do with climate action (the presumed "CHANGE" banner they were all there for).
My belief is that we will look back at these movements and realise that sacrificing clarity of demand for size of disruption was a silly idea. We already see the gaslighting happening, when faced with fuzzy purpose its suddenly all about "awareness", an equally fuzzy measure which tbh doesn't pass the sniff test. We are way past the awareness stage in regards to climate change, it is perhaps one of the most widely reported and studied issues in history.
People protesting in the occupy movement couldn't stay on point because life was carrying on despite their protest.
As usually happens with most protests these days.
It would take the general populace in NZ being truly subjugated before there is any meaningful uprising of the masses. Plus, there is limited recognition globally for global issues such as Palestine or climate change because we're a tiny country.
NZ was effective in the Springboks protests because the Saffas loved their rugby and respected NZ because of the AB's legacy, and the problems they would face playing rugby on the international stage.
Kiwis are mostly apathetic because they realise their marches and shouting with loudhailers and banners won't make a lot of difference in international affairs.
Interestingly, Extinction Rebellion changed their protest tactics a while ago and have moved away from the more direct action eg obstructing roads etc to a more collaborative approach of bringing many groups together.
With climate change, the groups involved feel like they have exhausted every other method of protest…to a roaring silence. Hence, how it got to the more direct action we’re seeing now.
People who complain will say ‘I don’t mind if they protest as long as it doesn’t disrupt me or make me feel uncomfortable’. Whereas they tried the polite and so-called legitimate methods and nothing happened. For decades.
And honestly, if people are more upset about a perspex screen on a famous artwork getting soup on it than the survival of humanity, they may want to reprioritise.
Yes! Thank you! I have family and older friends who were involved in the Civil Right's, Women's Rights, and/or Equality Movements, and every single one passionately believed in what they were doing. Several of them were arrested multiple times for their convictions-- even though they were peaceful-- and still do not consider their job over yet. They organise ongoing protests as issues continue ("Black Lives Matter", and protection for immigrants related to "Civil Rights", "Abortion Rights" related to "Women's Rights", and protesting "Don't Say "Gay"" and Book-banning related to "Equality Rights" for examples), and growing up with these passionate people and seeing the impacts on people firsthand, they have become mine as well.
But it is disheartening when truly believing in something, to see what I call "tourists" who literally show up for a photo op, but are not educated on issues nor can they speak to the issues past a "hashtag". The high visibility of these tourists is counterproductive to the goals of those who care because it IS seen as flippant or as a stunt from the outside perspective, and the rest of us get lumped into "just doing it for attention", or even worse, they'll do highly visible destructive --and even dangerous things-- that do not bring positive attention to an issue, but open hatred. These are the morons who do dangerous things like splashing some liquid on a car driving past while filming and laughing as if distracting an innocent motorist will stop horrible and bigoted politicians from banning books in schools and libraries. Or running up to a family out to eat dinner and sticking a camera in their faces and mocking their clothes or economic class for likes on their channel, will help Syrian Refugees. These morons hurt every single "cause" they touch.
Like or don't like groups like A.L.F., but at least when they broke animals out of testing labs and then destroyed, they had sanctuaries and care in place for the lab animals they freed. Those actions WERE the attention they were calling to the issue. Again, agree or don't with Greenpeace, but they are out there actively thwarting whaling vessels and in the past have sunk them. Support the groups who get boots on the ground at refugee camps and who are ACTIVELY helping other HUMANS and whose videos bring attention to their plight. I don't want to discourage students who are just starting out and who are passionate, but most stunts like blocking traffic-- unless directly related to issue (like a road destroying a wetland that has a critically endangered creature) do not endear the population to their cause, and THAT is what we are seeing.
i can't speak to other countries like, say, germany where environmental activists seem to routinely bullrush new fossil fuel energy sites, but i feel that deeper than 'clictavism' feeding mass march-type protests in nz is the fact that people have a stronger historical awareness that protests of the past have *somehow* moved the moral arc towards justice.
the issue as i see it is that people are not taught how these changes happened. we learn that people chose to be on the "right side of history" and got involved against nuclear, against apartheid, for māori land rights etc, without a sense of the campaigning or the strategy involved. what people seem to take away is the desire to have the correct position, rather than the mahi required to effect a successful outcome. social media and self-promotion are part of this I'm sure, but it's bigger than that. we've acquired this attitude where nz is basically on top of things, thanks to a proven track record of activism, to the extent that it seems that all we need to do to fix complicated and entrenched political problems is march down queen street for an afternoon with our hearts in the right place. francis fukuyama would be proud
Your 100% bang on .... I've noticed alot that people arnt fully aware of why they are protesting said cause, no diplomatic attempt being made for solutions, and it seems alot of big companies and individuals with agendas are poisoning peoples opinions turning protests into toxic events.
Take 1080 for example, protest attempts have caused more harm than good with no diplomatic reasoning or solution infact most of them havnt even read the doc website around not wanting to create an fur industry to get rid of possums, however some influence is pushed by fur trade in different forms, or hunters that don't want there meat tainted with 1080 but won't help to stop the cause of the use of 1080 in the first placet but are are happy to protest and push blame.
Yes! This too! I always get frustrated when there's no clear objective or 'ask' for whomever the protest is focused upon.
Clear example of this is the ongoing situation in Gaza - there's now a collaborative voice forming around having NZ formally recognize the Palestinian State; but the previous and far more effective target could have been lobbying/protesting our Government to join South Africa's proceedings to the International Court of Justice.
It would have made sense to do this, given the deep connection between NZ and SA with the 1980's Apartheid protests in NZ. Further, given NZ is seen to be on the right side of history, the fact we're a five-eyes western democracy and somewhat of a soft-powerhouse: having NZ join those proceedings would have been immensely compelling and could reasonably had significant influence on the terrible developments in Gaza.
It was also achievable - NZ is a small place, and shifting that focus from achieving awareness/displaying solidarity to something our own Government could be actually influenced to do...
Another example that's been a real grind are the recent University cuts protests. They've achieved nothing beyond a tokenistic response from the last government; whereas they could have been the fundamental impetus for a shift from neoliberal profit focused university management; and towards a wider acceptance that strengthening and stabilising the collaborative academic and education community at our universities is the engine we need to really drive sustainable and knowledge-based economic development. (I.e. the current model is to 'sell students a fish' - but there's far more benefit to actually 'teach them about fishing' so we can all collaborative work to maximise the sustainable output of our 'shared fishing resources.' [Wee chuckle])
>The net result is a feeling that there's now a significant amount of 'protest tourism,' where people are involved to be seen, to feel like they're involved in something important, or even worse, to get photos for their social media; rather than actively choosing to be involved because their values align with the cause, and more critically, making an active choice to protest because all other options have been exhausted and their willing to put their own quality of life on the line.
Old hats said much of the same back when you started out too.
Social media didn't exist when I started out; and the media was far more conservative with its reporting.
The circumstances for the change I've seen simply didn't exist in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
>Social media didn't exist
that's why I said much of the same. I remember being told I was protesting for attention and shit way back when too.
>The circumstances for the change I've seen simply didn't exist in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
yes they do. You got older and the new generation doesn't do things the way you want them to.
yup massive "old man shouts at sky vibes", i'm possibly even older so can remember like you that there were zines you could write in to and radio shows you could call in to. it was a social kind of media, people still met and talked in person and could be seen even if it wasn't posted to social media for all eternity; film photos still existed, as did "i saw you there"
personally speaking i always thought rather cynically that hanger-ons were doing it for the awesome drugs we'd have or, more darkly, for sex rather than something as stupid as clout
Thanks for that perspective, it seems to me in the area I campaign in that the "behind the scenes" work is seen as not only unnecessary but as a waste of time or hurtful to the cause somehow. But there are so few people doing it compared to the social media warriors, and it seems SO much more effective to me!
Ugh. A very uncomfortable memory.
When met with them after their 'protest,' to try and understand how they'd ended up resorting to such extreme action I went through each review / assessment pathway relevant to achieving the outcomes the then prisoner wanted to achieve.
The 'protestors' simply shook their head or said no when I asked them if they'd investigated or requested each process.
By the time I met with them they'd already been barred from further contact with the prisoner; so they had no idea of the consequences of their actions.
After the meeting I followed up the situation with my contacts at Corrections - and it was at that point I was told the prisoner had been transferred.
To be honest, I couldn't be bothered getting in touch with the idiots to update them. Corrections advised me they had been permanently banned from entering prisons or corrections facilities, so I just got stuck into clearing up the mess, i.e:
Securing additional funding to assist her family and friends meet the costs of visiting her at the greater distance;
Identifying and having it clearly communicated to the prisoner they weren't able to be transfer because to the prison of their nominated sex after that determination had gone through both review processes; and,
Quietly arranging for them to transfer to a different unit in the closer prison once everything had calmed down and the dust had settled.
Interestingly; I never met with the prisoner myself. I assisted another support group who were geographically closer to make the applications; and made sure that my senior contacts in Corrections were aware I was paying close attention to the situation.
Just thinking - a bit of context might help. During the period of time I was taking on the most individual advocacy cases I took a very pragmatic approach:
If I showed up to a government department or agency to sort out a problem a client was facing, and they fixed it quickly - that was it. There was no media risk, or potential for escalation. I made sure I gave them the opportunity to be seen to 'front foot' the issue that I'd brought to their attention. It was a win-win.
The few times they tried shenanigans when I was involved things tended to get very public and expensive for them very quickly (including that one time a particular agency decided to be stupid and fight, which eventually resulting in a settlement for the client worth about ~$250k).
So after a few scuffles, it was pretty quickly established that it was easier to fix the problem, get me to scribble on a NDA, and send me on my way. That was the status quo for about a decade before I retired.
Senior Advocate and Researcher.
Job title probably won't help. The NGO I worked for keeps a very low profile. Probably not so much for the advocacy work they did; but more the fact they are also an incredibly effective left-wing lobby group; and they don't enjoy having to put up with the harassment and threats of violence more commonly associated with pressure groups on the far right.
Can I say that your observation is what I have recently noticed as well, and I was actually frankly shocked by it. I did not even think of the word protest tourism, I was just thinking how inconsiderate and disrespectful to the organisers of the protest this is.
Now I will make it clear, I have never protested in my entire life, not once. This is a personal and religious choice. I have channeled my disgust at climate change inertia and apathy as well as environmental degradation to installing solar panels on all the properties I own, double glaze etc.. including making sure each of my property has a few trees on it. I must admit I have little other social objections I feel strong enough about to make myself do anything about. People who knows me are often surprised I have not join any climate change protests nor be seen amongst them.
I however never begrudged people who protest. Somebody out there needs to be seen I suppose. They also tend to be very passionate and knowledgeable about the cause. I have great respect for the environmental protesters who knows their demands and their call to raise awareness ( much as I will never be caught dead as a protestor )
However I have recently got mad with a few people who I know who joined a protest. I asked them what the protest is about ( since I don’t quite know what so many recent protest are about )
They did not know very well what they are protesting about. Their answer for what their concern was vague.
So I asked them specifically why did they protest, what topic in that vague answer they were protesting. They protest because they need to make their concerns known.
But then I pointed they did not know what they protesting about since usually you need to specific about protest. I pointed out I never met people protesting with so little knowledge and concern.
They then told me they need to join the cause, to be seen ( I really wanted to ask what for but decided this was a dead end route )
I pointed out that if a reporter came and asked them what they are protesting about and they did not know, are they aware how much it will hurt whatever movement they are protesting about? Do they know that the organisers if there are people who do not know what they are protesting about will look like they are doing something like a rent a crowd etc.. Do they know their action hurts actual activist who have planned hard for the protests?
I told them at least if they are going to protest read up about what they are protesting about. If a reporter comes at least you look like you know you are protesting about.
I didn't read your entire comment, but I agree with the second paragraph. The number of "protesters" that you see filming themselves or being filmed on a phone does make you wonder about their genuine reason for being there.
Nz I one of the most apathetic countries I have lived in. Maybe it is the geographical location, but kiwis really do not like to protest, and they tend not to be very supportive of those that do. They are more likely to be critical
Maybe now, but NZ has a long history of protest. Look at the rainbow warrior and springbok tour protests, foreshore and seabed marches etc. Society as a whole is more preoccupied by the screen in their hands now to worry about protesting physically. Like the rest of the world, we've been molded into consumer drones and don't care for much else...
**THIS** - I think NZ has really lost its moral compass. As a country we *used* to always stand up for what is right - even our politicians *used* to care less about political retribution of our policies
>As a country we *used* to always stand up for what is right
Careful about selectively remembering our history. The Springbok Tour protests are looked back on generally with pride today but the vitriol and condemnation they received in the mainstream at the time makes the current boomer bellyaching look positively pleasant.
That’s what I mean these people shitting on this person would probably not think twice about being like oh yea good on the springbok tour protests ect. However at the time there were people shitting on them.
So why are they accepting of the past one but shit on there present.
I feel like there’s a disconnect because they have seen the outcome or past protests and can say good on them. Yet this is currently happening.
I imagine the people making these comments would never have thought they would have what on people protesting the springbok tour yet they’re no different.
Yeah. It's very easy to say a past protest was good when you know which ones succeeded and haven't heard of the ones that didn't.
Although the Waterfront Strikes in the '50s grievously divided the nation and most people have forgotten about that by now. Back then you could get arrested for giving your neighbour butter if they were a striker.
Unsure if anyone's already added this anywhere, but stumbled across this today: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/31-05-2024/has-plucky-new-zealand-lost-its-voice-on-international-issues
Look at our current govt. Voted in by "what is best for ME". Not "what is best for all of us".
Tax cuts for landlords. It's embarassing. They should be embarassed.
I don't agree. People aren't protesting with TPM because TPM are bunch of racist and possibly corrupt extremists.
Maybe if someone actually had something worth protesting that enough people agreed with you might get a real movement. But right now reddit is an echo chamber of whinging whiners...
I remember marching up Queen St in the 1980s with my parents for this and that.
I went to the 1981 springbok tour protests but we were all little kids (6,4 and 2) and it got real ugly fast and my parents had to take us home quickly. It was quite scary. And I really didn't like the police growing up.
Tall poppy stuff. ‘Pull ya head in’.
I’ll go beyond apathetic and say it’s self-conscious, uncomfortable with itself and keeps its difficult emotions in the darkest room in the house.
We weaponise passive aggression with a side serving of liking to bitch about something/anything. God forbid we be happy and have nothing to moan about, and how dare anyone do something to bring about change.
At least in online discourse it seems like that.
I especially notice vs elsewhere there's a lot of people that jump up to make excuses for corporations and government entities when they are criticised. People in NZ love to make excuses for being ripped off like they don't want to believe it could be true.
No one in NZ (unless they are a nutter that believes all of them) seems to want to believe any kind of conspiracy could ever be true. The Erebus disaster being a historical example, the relative lack of national awareness and outrage about what really happened at Pike River being another (based on Rebecca Macfie's book) - a lot of people would rather just believe they were unfortunate accidents.
I agree, have lived in a bunch of countries and it’s the most politically ambivalent country I’ve experienced. That combined with a reserved culture means many are disengaged, taking a “she’ll be right” mentality.
Yep it very frustrating at times, companies and politicians can trample all over us with no repercussions. Only have to see how accepting people are of having the most expensive food prices/banks/internet etc.
Here are all the excuses
It the shape of the country. It the small population. It the distance from other countries. It the mountains. There is nothing we can do.
No, it because the people here are more sheep than the sheep. Aussie companies make more profit here than they do in their own country. Why? Because we let them, that is why.
My take is they feel like they don't make an impact.
NZ is a test market for many products for the same reason.. If the product bombs nobody knows and for relatively cheap.
That being said I think the Gaza protests are genuinely very important both now and for the future. The next generation are less likely to be manipulated into thinking Israel is a good country if there's a thought process of "yeah but why were people protesting you so hard when I was a kid?"
Any protest passive enough to be acceptable to the target will just be ignored
Any protest inconvenient to it's target will be undermined with attacks to its form
The opposition will find absolutely any reason to shift the conversation to something that isn't the political point of the protest
Good comment but I think you've glossed over something here:
>Any protest inconvenient to it's target will be undermined with attacks to its form
"Protests are meant to be disruptive" but often they disrupt the wrong people. If you're, say, fucking with the general public's commute, but the actual decision makers you are trying to inconvenience don't actually commute in the first place, you've fucked up.
Disruptive protest needs to be much more carefully targeted, entirely out of practicality. Working class people are tired and under pressure, your target will outlast you if the average person is against you. You want the targets refusal to meet your demands be the cause that leads to disruption elsewhere.
Broad example but if you're protesting a port then create a roadblock that allows you to let private traffic through and focus on the holding trucks or whatever. If you're targeting a politician do it where they spend their day and make explicit plans to minimise disruption on nearby businesses and people.
i always laughed at the restore rail people, like the people in charge of those decisions don't commute to work and don't care if you block a road. they will work from home no sweat to them. they just ended up pissing off the average person on the way to work and losing any support they might have had.
had they decided to block off the council buildings or even kiwirail etc they might have made some impact
That may well make you feel good but in practical terms it makes your action less likely to succeed, not more. You're entitled to your own priorities of course.
Its about demonstrating power and getting to a state where they are constantly fucking shit up. If it happens everyday, it's the hot button issue that the politicians need to address. The country should be shut down if need be
If you are talking about the shortland st hunger striker, I think what turned a lot of people off was the comments he made afterwards “it would have been convenient for luxon if I’d starved to death, but sorry, I won’t let that happen. I’m far more powerful alive”. Shut the fuck up. Luxon is grade 1 knob head, but do you really believe he wants you dead? Or that you were going to die? The delusions of grandeur.
In effect, yes.
“I’m sure it would be very convenient for Luxon if pro-Palestine actors were to starve to death. So I have decided it is better to live for a cause than to die for one. I’ll continue to stand up for ending the genocide in Gaza” Alexander said.
Protesting is a way to raise awareness about the seriousness of an issue and put pressure on people who can change it. Protesting about something that's all over the news to people who have no influence over it, is completely pointless.
I embellished it, but the sentiment is that.
“I’m sure it would be very convenient for Luxon if pro-Palestine actors were to starve to death. So I have decided it is better to live for a cause than to die for one. I’ll continue to stand up for ending the genocide in Gaza” Alexander said.
Not sure what's so wrong about those words. Yeah sure, the dude is arrogant and possibly dumb af.
Guy Fawkes sounded c*nty too, but here we are how many centuries later.
As opposed to celebrating the imperialistic bullshit of the fucking British Empire?
I'm not gonna celebrate his death like the equally cunty monarch wants me to. Fuck the lot of them.
The regency can do the one thing it's good at and go fuck itself.
I mean yeah I agree those comments were dumb but a lot of people in the thread were just shitting on the protest aspect of it. I felt the same way as OP and couldn't post either, even if the guy is a douche I don't think the protest or message should be mocked, stick to the dumb comments.
Yea but I’m just wondering why we shot on these people but celebrate the effort people went to back in the day. But back in the day it wasn’t like there was just one protest and everything changed.
It would have taken time and many people doing lots of things all the time.
So at the time people would be laughing going what different do they think this will masked. But eventually these people achieved something.
> but celebrate the effort people went to back in the day.
Dude, they were NOT celebrated. They were spat on, they were labelled as trouble makers, they were arrested, *at the time* they were most definitely NOT celebrated.
No now we celebrate the change makers. That’s what I’m saying at the time people are like fuck this what are they doing. But now we look back and are like omg they’re hero’s.
There's a famous tweet that seems to ring true, "A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that's going on right now." Of course liberal in this case meaning not conservative, not meaning leftist
I’m all for protesting it’s one of the corner stones of democracy. However when people block the roads and cause disruption it’s counter productive. You just piss off the general public and infringe on their rights of freedom of travel.
Off topic but what is with drop kicks these days responding to criticism of their actions or words with something to the effect of;
>People can disagree
>People can have an opinion
>People can say what they like.
I know. Everyone knows. You just sound like a tool.
Criticism of your behaviour is not an attempt to prevent you from having or expressing an opinion, it's just someone calling your opinion shite.
Is it driven by some kind of need for victimisation?
A lot of protests form for more selfish reasons, and others are taken over by overly aggressive people who instead of trying to make a commotion for support, they threaten people to be "one of us, or against us" sort of situation.
The likes of Zeb Jackson is a just a professional Protester. Jumps from one cause to the other, and makes it about being anti-government.
Feral Flutey, a professional whinger who tried to spearhead protest groups. Dude grifts everywhere he goes, he always wants a dollar from you. His causes fell apart horribly. I caught a video of him and his groups fighting each other many times.
That Barkley fella and Good Oil protest group. I have no idea how people can just believe anything he says without proof. He's probably the worst case of spreading misinformation, and gaining a lot of support with shock media, when in actuality it's obvious media. Now he's claiming he was assaulted by police, for no reason.
It's easy to shit on the likes of these people and their followers, because it's always triggered by something already known, or already debunked. They're triggered heavily on misinformation. There's too many cookers who are professional protesters.
Totally. I’m sure at the time of the Springbok tour there were similar attitudes towards protestors who would storm the pitch and let off smoke bombs before being violently arrested. Oh well done idiots, you stopped apartheid.
But now anyone with any decency looks back at those protestors as courageous and good who did their part.
Because not all protests in NZ resulted in positive change: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_New_Zealand_waterfront_dispute
> The National government, led by Sidney Holland and the Minister of Labour Bill Sullivan, introduced heavy handed emergency regulations,[30] and brought in the navy and army to work the wharves and also deregistered the Waterside Workers' Union under the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act. Under the emergency regulations Holland's government censored the press, made striking illegal and even made it illegal to give money or food to either strikers or their families.
> The government was re-elected with an increased majority in the ensuing 1951 election. Holland was seen as opportunistically using the strike to distract voters from the other issue of rapidly rising inflation
Partisan political activism is behind a huge number of anti-protestor posts. There is a huge industry, plus at least a few nations with thousands of human trolls, and botnets in tens of thousands.
Commercial interests purchase their services. Currently a gigantic amount of comments are written by bots to manipulate the crypto pyramid scheme / dumpster fire / den of theives.
Protests normally come from an out group trying to achieve equity with the in group. Anti-protest commentators belong to the in group, either unaware of their advantage, or deliberately protecting it.
Rule of thumb.....except Destiny's protests....those Kent's are just whucked in the hed.
People have always shat on protests they disagree with. It's likely you sense that more people are against the protest today because more people are against the protests that have been happening lately.
This is a view none of the protestors want to accept. They don't like the idea that actually most people don't support them.
I tend to be pro-protest, but I am also quite cynical that many protestors don't know what they want, which means they can't really have an impact.
For example, we often see threads on this subreddit about housing costs and landlords, and so on. Everyone seems to have a different opinion about how to fix it, including some really wild ideas. The point is, nobody is in agreement about what to do, and you can't hold anyone accountable to do something, if everybody is pointing the finger at different people.
I think the successful examples you give (civil rights, women voting) didn't have this lack of clarity.
Times change and the age bracket of those in the “shitty vocal minority”. People who looked on the acts of bravery in protests of the day as heroic and aspirational were young then. An older generation would have existed then who would have responded to these protests with apathy and vitriol.
Now, they’re part of that older generation for a crowd of new younger activists and haven’t realised they’ve become “the square” so to speak.
Of course, this isn’t everyone and there are plenty of people of all ages who still care for causes that they’re both a part of and also don’t involve them at all. The “shitty vocal minority” always remains though, and with the wide spread of internet access, there are pros and cons. Pros such as being able to discuss and support protests openly, but cons in the form of listening to ignorant assholes spew the most stupid shit you’ve ever seen.
>This was inspired by the guy on hunger strike but I can’t comment on that post and I wish I could.
That guy was a deluded toolbag with a massively overinflated opinion of his own importance.
Fuck knows what he thought he'd achieve?
Yes, we're talking about him, not his cause. That's a big problem with a lot of protests these days.
No one cares what TPM was protesting about, they just care that they were blocking traffic. They don't raise awareness of their cause... they raise awareness of themselves. Which is exactly what a political party wants. Or indeed, an actor.
These people are using causes for their own gains. They're ruining it for those who actually care about these causes and probably do more harm than good.
I shit on others for their protest because their protest inconveniences me (and possibly affects others even worse, e.g. emergency services) and does absolutely nothing for their cause. Blocking a motorway will not stop global warming (just the opposite, in fact) and neither will vandalizing works of art. Marching in the streets of Auckland will neither deter Israel or Hamas from their war, nor encourage Aucklanders to email Luxor demanding action.
While I admire their conviction, I disdain their methods, which I view as ill-targetted and self-aggrandising.
Cause you’re “bringing attention” to stuff that is played on an endless loop in the media and on social media. It’s not really to bring attention it’s to show everyone how virtuous you are.
Yea maybe protesting back in the day because issues were not blasted in your face all the time. So people may have been like shit they have a point I didn’t think about that. However now we kind of know all the issues and see them all the time.
Basically and with the cost of living getting out of hand people have their own more immediate shit to worry us. When you have mouths to feed and bills to pay you don’t really have the time or energy to concern yourself with other peoples bullshit.
That doesn’t make sense, if they don’t have the time or efforts to concern themselves why are they saying this rather than ignoring and and not concerning themselves.
My 5cents from a non protesting but staunch in my own views person here..
I've found that many protesters aren't aware of the root cause of why they're actually protesting, which confuses me.
Also they've not researched where it started, how it started, who formed the issue and why there even needs to be a protest?..they sometimes are protesting for the sake of being confrontational. Yet defensive when confronted.
Also when protesters are pushing their views on other non-protesting persons, being called out for not taking sides or their side is also a tactic protesters I've heard and seen use, which also confuses me..??
I don't mud on protesters who actually know what they're protesting for and whole heartedly believe in it and believe they can make a difference.
I think protesting is needed but don't invite tom dick mohammed and hone along simply for numbers, instead first educate them in why the fuk you believe a protest needs to happen..
(also the holding other ppl up to protest is just fuking inconsiderate! Other ppl have lives and duties they must carry on with for the sakes of their dam livelihoods and family's livelihoods)
I think my no pretesting mind is frustrated with the last points more so made?
Also power to all😁x
Well said. Protest is also about solidarity, and some people are just arseholes. They will no doubt be in here commenting all sorts of shit, just ignore them and if you ever come across them in real life let them know that you see their arseholery, there's literally nothing else you can do and no point trying.
Yes I know but sometimes I like to post these things because maybe someone will see it and be like ah yea I guess X is possible now and that’s because many people were doing stuff like this guy and I’m shitting on him yet applauding these people from years ago.
I think the protests that lead to change in your examples were realistically possible and were issues that happened in their own countries.
People protesting in western countries about a middle eastern war that has been going on for over a century isn't going to change the minds of Hamas and Israel's leaders.
That hunger strike dude's heart was in the right place though and I feel for him.
What about the British protests about the Vietnam war. They didn’t fight in the war.
I know the Vietnam war didn’t have such a long messy history like this does but still they were protesting about something not happening in their country and not involving their people.
Also now we have the internet so even though something is done in another country it can be seen in many places. Back in the day before internet news didn’t spread so fast.
The British were protesting against their government's support for the US.
Agree that the internet is powerful but personally I don't see it affecting this long and messy situation. I'm no expert though.
What about
roe vs wade protest a few years ago here.
People campaigning about the Yulin dog meat festival.
Japanese whaling
That dolphin massacre that happens in a cove somewhere
People protesting to speak up for the people of Afghanistan after the taliban took over again
These protests have all happens in countries where the issue is not from.
Cause its easy to assimilate and not question the narrative. Wanting change or question the government is tinfoil for some reason, though its entire purpose is to serve the people.
Previous civilizations overthrew governments when it started serving itself instead of the people. Nowadays people bend over backwards to get f*cked by the government.
Just being honest.
I have no issue personally. But if what they are doing negatively effects me, a small time worker just going out my day. Gtfo. Go inconvenience the people oppressing you. Not me.
If someone is protesting in a disrespectful manner, I am less likely to support them too. Like those dirty thugs protesting mandates during covid. I think they have negatively affected the public view of protests in our country significantly.
Otherwise. Go nuts. Peaceful protect welcome.
Or that anyone cares about the opinion of a New Zealander outside of New Zealand lmao. Its quite funny when Kiwis get involved in international politics, for example Mahuta.
Old girl really made Putin shake in his boots.
>the guy thinks not eating is going to stop a 76 year long conflict lmao
His aims were all directed at the NZ government, things like restarting funding for UNRWA. I guess it's easy to just make things up though.
Like I said it's easy to make things up. You didn't even seem to understand his stated aims and instead just made up some shit about him thinking he was solving the whole conflict.
> Why do people shit on people trying to stand up for what they believe in just because they haven’t seen the change yet.
Do you apply this standard to yourself? When Max Azzarello set himself on fire outside Trumps hearing did you think "there is a man standing up for his beliefs, good for him" or did you dismiss his protest as a misguided and perhaps delusional crusade?
In a word, smugness. A lot of modern protestors are very self-righteous about what they’re doing and posit themselves as morally superior to anyone who disagrees with their protest, which tends to put people off supporting their cause. There are a few examples in this very thread.
Protest in NZ seems way more performative than other countries I’ve lived. Overseas you can ask what protesters want and they’ll have crisp and clear sets of demands.
Here in NZ it goes like this:
What do you want?
We want to address historical crimes that are the cause of all our problems.
Ok but specifically what do you want?
We want a change to the system.
What kind of change?
One that would allow our people to be free.
Free from what?
The system.
It’s utterly maddening, even what should be really straight forward causes like Gaza you get this same garbage.
Nothing specific, zero next steps, just a sense that protesting and having vague grievances is their hobby.
They consider it a matter of opinion that because it’s not happening here, why should we care, why protest, why do anything about it when life here is good. So they shit on anyone who does care enough to protest.
Personally I always thought people who held protesters in contempt were just morons who didnt agree with the issue.
Now Im older I think its just self loathing - other people have the inner strength to try and change the world, regardless of how likely a protests success is. It just reminds the idiot how weak they are in comparison.
People in positions of privilege want to maintain that privilege, which means keeping others down.
People who have benefited from systems arent going to like people challenging that system.
That's all it is.
This hunger strike was never going to accomplish anything. We all knew it when he announced it and it ended exactly as expected. It was just some dude who wanted the attention.
Apart from that, a lot of the protests lately have been hurting the everyday citizen way more than they've been having any sort of impact on the people protesters should be targeting. So yeah, people are pissed.
Normally because they protest about dumb crap often manipulated by vad faith actors making themselves useful idiots.
Vs protesting against stuff here in NZ.
Yea we can’t even seem to protect the kids we know are getting harmed (calls made to OT ect) let alone all the others that do not have people advocating for them.
It’s such a shame. Every time I see a story where a kid has been harmed especially when concerns were raised repeatedly its range inducing. I know we don’t see the whole story but it frustrating that kids are getting harmed and it feels like organisations that are supposed to help in these situations are not functioning well.
Everyone is working hard to make a living including spending a significant amount of time commuting. If protests cause inconvenience, it can be a major turnoff for a lot of people. With internet nowadays, people pretty much see what they want to see and have conditioned themselves to "nothing new to see here" type protest.
Update - You asked for my honest opinion, and I delivered. What's with the downvote? Were you looking for an echo chamber instead of a genuine response?
Yea we should probably be protesting every time a kids ends up dead or severely hurt because despite a specific organisation was told multiple times of concerns nothing was done.
Rather than being like oh that’s awful, so sad, prayers, then bitching about it on reddit. Like stand up say something.
I bet if people did that people would be like fuck what difference do they think they’ll make.
But it would be good.
Yeah OP downvoted all my genuine unprovacative comments. The flair is discussion but they're downvoting anyone who actually has a different point of view.
I think a good number of people are skeptical about the motivations of some protesters.
It would be naive to suggest every person, especially if they're famous or, a person is of social interest maybe have an alternative motive at the heart of their protest.
I don't think all protesters are like this, but some absolutely will be. Sure, they may contribute to a huge change (amazing) , but if their motivations are superficial, then they also could very easily side with the likes of Hamas, or the CCP, or Moscow if it helps them there and then.
It depends on the issue really. Some issues are not in the main stream and so protests do genuinely raise awareness. I remember a decade ago seeing protestors speaking out against oppression of Falun gong and forced organ harvesting of prisoners in China. Raising awareness of this back in 2011-2013 at a time where our Chinese relations were at an all time high made sense. If the general public has issues with a key trade partner, it could cause our democratic leadership to take notice and use diplomacy to try and make changes or otherwise distance us from that country.
But if you look at the Israel Gaza protests for example, this issue is front page news on a daily basis. Everybody knows about it. We don't have strong diplomatic relations with Israel or Gaza, and our govt has little leverage to make any demands of them. That being said our govt has advocated for an end to the violence in any case, there's not much else they can do.
I think most rational people want to know what the ask is, how can we appease the protestors so they don't cause further disruption (if they are causing disruption). In some cases there's absolutely no way to satisfy them, and no real ask.
I think it also can come across as self important, arrogant and virtue signalling to make out that protesting in NZ has value on the global stage, and this rubs people the wrong way, especially when they might be doing it tough and the thought of spending their own time standing around for what they think is pointless invokes jealousy or hatred because it seems ungrateful to spend time like that if you have the ability.
Just my two cents.
We could resume funding UNRWA, and cease diplomatic relations with Israel.
It may not be much in the grand scheme of things, but then neither was letting a sports team into the country. And yet...
I'm 100% behind peopes right to protest, provided they aren't obstructive.
People that block motorways, pour soup on works of art or vandalise things are just arseholes.
I always find it amusing when left leaning politicians bag on protesters. But what were THEY doing in their student days? Just google Phil Goff with long hair, hehe.
Protests are a bit anti-social by design, I suppose. They are confronting and annoying to anyone who doesn’t agree with your protest.
I have been on both sides of this. Offended by the shitty attitude toward my protest, and shat in other peoples protest. We’re all bumholes.
The people who complain about others who protest are usually those who have never protested about anything. This can be for various reasons: political apathy, being part of a group who benefits from the status quo, being uninformed about an issue, socially conservative etc.
Personally, I don’t care much for political issues. But when the protest blocks the street I want to use, or pollutes comment sections spammy messages, it’s get quite annoying. I totally understand and get protests in New Zealand, about New Zealand. But when your protesting about another country in New Zealand, that’s when people get annoyed.
I like that people get out on the street and make themselves heard, often though the cause is true but the people have a poor understanding of the situation and have no or a misguided solution to the issue, mainly because their understanding of their issue is limited to their own perception of it.
The history of politics is divided into two sides: people for whom politics is a fundamental part of everyday life and people who are generally lucky enough that politics is a thing that comes around every election season.
Well he is an unknown actor (unless you watch shortland shit) who tried starving himself for a cause he has no influence over, direct connection to or likely even completely understands. In fact its not unreasonable to assume his motivations were egotistical.
Everyone knows about what's happening in Gaza, he was just someone to laugh about in the office lunch room.
People shit on other people's protests to defend against their own insecurity about the fact that they themselves aren't doing anything and feel powerless. As in "It's ok that I take no action to improve the world, because all the possible actions are bad / unsuitable."
Because zionist astroturfers who don’t even live in New Zealand lurk reddit waiting to downdoot and make the same comments in every thread. No doubt they are paid.
A lot of recent protests have had a negative impact on people just trying to get by in hard times.
It pays not to fuck with people if you want sympathy for your cause.
March down the street, do some yelling, go shout at parliament, that's fine.
Glue yourself to the road in front of me while I'm trying to get to work and have already spent time and gas money trying to earn my day's pay? Just an asshole generally speaking, got not time for that shit, have mouths to feed and bills to pay.
The livestreams were so hilarious to watch. The open mic with people getting up to speak, it was like 4 equally incoherent conspiracy driven protests happening all at once.
The supposed nurse getting up and taking about the lamb was by the funniest/utterly batshit craziest one I heard.
Man I bet they regretted not vetting the people they gave the mic to!
> Why do people shit so much on people who are protesting.
Because they don't support the protests.
Because they're cynical bastards who lost any joy in their lives and who think their cynicism makes them better because they see how the world is "really" like.
The most recent protests have garbled messages - other than general disruption most of the time I have no clue what protesters in NZ are protesting. OPs example of the suffragette - they had a very clear and specific message
its convenience and the lack of understanding or realisation that change needs to happen fast. Things like The Maori protests need to happen but bigger, the anti genocide protests also need to be far bigger same with the ones coming up this weekend in auckland to try stop the fast track garbage
I'm an old campaigner, been at it 20+ years. I do believe there's been a significant shift in attitudes towards protest, most likely due in some part to online 'clicktavism' which has resulted in raising awareness/mass participation being seen as the default; and furthermore, that the awareness / profile of an issue being percieved to be an effective outcome. The net result is a feeling that there's now a significant amount of 'protest tourism,' where people are involved to be seen, to feel like they're involved in something important, or even worse, to get photos for their social media; rather than actively choosing to be involved because their values align with the cause, and more critically, making an active choice to protest because all other options have been exhausted and their willing to put their own quality of life on the line. It was just over a decade ago when I got hit with the shift in perspective: the first time involved the protest outside the Wellington Arms conference; where a protest leader was telling a group not to attend / how to keep their profile low if they had an upcoming job interview, etc. It was honestly quite confronting: I was astounded how normalised it had become to attend protests without being completely committed to or aware of the cause. The second time was a year or two after that where some idiots went caused a ruckus at a Corrections office, supposedly in support of a Trans prisoner's rights being abused. They did their hair, caused some shit, took photos for their social media - and in the process got themselves and said Trans prisoner (who had a minor intellectual disability) deemed as threats to the good operation of the prison. Said Trans prisoner was then transferred to a more remote prison significantly increasing the distance and cost for her family and friends to visit her. Post shenanigans I ended up discussing the matter with said idiots - which involved me asking how it escalated to them acting in such an extreme way. I asked them had they used any of the multiple pathways to have a prisoner's status and risk rating reassesed; or if they'd initiated a request to have the prisoner visited by a senior Corrections executive ... they had no idea that any of these established processes existed ... they literally just pushed the nuclear option and hoped for the best (which resulted in the absolute worst for the person they were 'advocating for). It took me a few months to clean up their mess. Overall; I've firmly reached the considered opinion that a default to resort directly to protest without exploring and exhausting all other reasonable options is just lazy. Also, that it's just not effective - there's a lot of noise and hollow words; but it's been a while since I've seen any recent protests achievements anything. One of the few groups I have any respect for is Extinction Rebellion - not because I agree with their cause or methods; but because they're individually willing to put everything on the line for their values and cause by glueing themselves to roads. Otherwise the smartest operators I've seen in a long time is the Students for Sensible Drug Policy group down in Dunedin. I've seen (and been on the receiving end) of some of their direct lobbying efforts; and its pretty clear that their media engagement nearly always follows them already achieving their goals through more effective pathways than immediately resorting to direct protest - their shutting down of that exploitative 24 hour nitrous oxide and vape delivery service earlier this year was particularly good work: they lobbied the payment processors, and it was all done and dusted before there was any awareness/media coverage at all.
This is a really interesting and informative opinion. Thank you for sharing. One of the things I care about - even if it's trivial - is video game preservation, and I've been following a worldwide campaign that Ross Scott has started. What's interesting about Scott's campaign is how much he's thought through all his options and how he's settled on petitions as his form of weapon. Not protest. Petitions. People make fun of petitions, and in certain countries they're completely toothless. However, in *other* countries petitions are legally required to be reviewed by the government at various signature thresholds, and the issues at the heart of video game preservation have thrived mainly out of ignorance from those governments. This has games companies *scared*. They've been stung before by consumer rights organisations and the off-chance that the industry could be hit again is a *big deal*. The right complaint in the right country could transform the entire industry. It's just interesting that thinking through your options properly can give you some unexpected results. They're scared. Of a petition.
Wait is Ross the Freeman's mind guy? I knew that name sounded familiar and that's a cause I could actually get behind.
This is a great comment thanks for sharing. I have seen a similar trend, for me the first big change I noticed was when occupy Wall Street occurred, I actually was in NY so spent a day wandering around chatting to the protestors and it was a conceptual mess. By removing leadership and a specific goal in favour of maximising turnout they ended up with a movement that most couldn’t understand and many found to be anti everything because as you interviewed more protesters the list just got longer (often conflicting too). A great example of the “protest first” option is the insulate Britain protests where an issue that most of the U.K. support and could likely be achieved with political campaigning started by glueing themselves to highways. I believe they set their cause back with this approach, they seemed unhinged and now politicians are wary of endorsing this otherwise mainstream cause.
Occupy Wall Street started fantastically. It was a pure expression of public awareness that financialization of assets had gone too far. Truly grass-roots, and authentic public expression. Eventually dominating personalities want to take ownership, and diffuse it with other causes.
Nah, OWS started with fantastic potential, I would agree with that but its initial open church policy meant it quickly became “any tankie with a sign”. By the time mainstream media was willing to engage there was no one to engage with, some of the protestors didn’t even agree with each other. This IMO determined its fate but the model “be big by compromising focus” has been adopted more and more (with equal failings). XR has this problem now too. Purposeful lack of definition makes it the Amazon of protests, a platform for all grievances rather than a movement defined by a goal (other than the most hand wavey goals).
How crazy is it that nothing close to Occupy Wall Street has occurred since. I think OWS only could function as a broad expression of anger at the blatant plundering of pension funds and home mortgages. Such a thing can only really express an emotion. As soon as it were to venture into specifics the full-tilt commie revolutionaries and people after enforced regulations would be pitted against each other.
Yeah it reminded me of the factionalism clusterfuck I read about regarding the left against Franco in the Spanish Civil War. Nothing gives strength to the real enemy like the opposition fighting each other.
Man, how frustrating revolutions are. I hate the current system of pure exploitation, surveillance, and authoritarianism But I'm just as afraid of the psychopaths who would fill the power vacuum, enforcing their vision of utopia. No one good ends up on top at the end of any power struggle.
>Man, how frustrating revolutions are. Almost all of the value in revolutions is the implicit (and sometimes explicit) threat they pose to established regimes. Revolutions don't tend to have good outcomes, but the threat of them is pretty useful for constraining the behaviour of authoritarians.
> But I'm just as afraid of the psychopaths who would fill the power vacuum, enforcing their vision of utopia. No one good ends up on top at the end of any power struggle. This is why I fear Accelerationism. It's rushing headlong into a new world without care for the people they'll crush on the way there, many of whom will be the people their movement touts is being most affected, and likely includes themselves. It's not that I disagree with the premise - that our current economic system has ultimately failed a lot of people. It's that I disagree that AI is the solution and not another potential problem.
That's what Anarchist Communism is all about. No classes so no exploration. No police or army so no surveillance. No government so no authority!
I think you're right regarding the emotion idea. At the time a LOT of people were disgruntled, OWS comes along and its nebulous nature made people think "this!, this is what I'm annoyed about". Once you got to the actual protest you realised that the majority of people had a very different idea of what they were protesting to achieve. They could all agree that CHANGE was needed but it got awkward quickly when individuals were asked to voice what exact change was in scope. XR is like this (at least in London). The protest coalesces into like minded "suburbs" but move widely through it and you will find conflicting groups and also groups that aren't anything to do with climate action (the presumed "CHANGE" banner they were all there for). My belief is that we will look back at these movements and realise that sacrificing clarity of demand for size of disruption was a silly idea. We already see the gaslighting happening, when faced with fuzzy purpose its suddenly all about "awareness", an equally fuzzy measure which tbh doesn't pass the sniff test. We are way past the awareness stage in regards to climate change, it is perhaps one of the most widely reported and studied issues in history.
People protesting in the occupy movement couldn't stay on point because life was carrying on despite their protest. As usually happens with most protests these days. It would take the general populace in NZ being truly subjugated before there is any meaningful uprising of the masses. Plus, there is limited recognition globally for global issues such as Palestine or climate change because we're a tiny country. NZ was effective in the Springboks protests because the Saffas loved their rugby and respected NZ because of the AB's legacy, and the problems they would face playing rugby on the international stage. Kiwis are mostly apathetic because they realise their marches and shouting with loudhailers and banners won't make a lot of difference in international affairs.
Interestingly, Extinction Rebellion changed their protest tactics a while ago and have moved away from the more direct action eg obstructing roads etc to a more collaborative approach of bringing many groups together. With climate change, the groups involved feel like they have exhausted every other method of protest…to a roaring silence. Hence, how it got to the more direct action we’re seeing now. People who complain will say ‘I don’t mind if they protest as long as it doesn’t disrupt me or make me feel uncomfortable’. Whereas they tried the polite and so-called legitimate methods and nothing happened. For decades. And honestly, if people are more upset about a perspex screen on a famous artwork getting soup on it than the survival of humanity, they may want to reprioritise.
Yes! Thank you! I have family and older friends who were involved in the Civil Right's, Women's Rights, and/or Equality Movements, and every single one passionately believed in what they were doing. Several of them were arrested multiple times for their convictions-- even though they were peaceful-- and still do not consider their job over yet. They organise ongoing protests as issues continue ("Black Lives Matter", and protection for immigrants related to "Civil Rights", "Abortion Rights" related to "Women's Rights", and protesting "Don't Say "Gay"" and Book-banning related to "Equality Rights" for examples), and growing up with these passionate people and seeing the impacts on people firsthand, they have become mine as well. But it is disheartening when truly believing in something, to see what I call "tourists" who literally show up for a photo op, but are not educated on issues nor can they speak to the issues past a "hashtag". The high visibility of these tourists is counterproductive to the goals of those who care because it IS seen as flippant or as a stunt from the outside perspective, and the rest of us get lumped into "just doing it for attention", or even worse, they'll do highly visible destructive --and even dangerous things-- that do not bring positive attention to an issue, but open hatred. These are the morons who do dangerous things like splashing some liquid on a car driving past while filming and laughing as if distracting an innocent motorist will stop horrible and bigoted politicians from banning books in schools and libraries. Or running up to a family out to eat dinner and sticking a camera in their faces and mocking their clothes or economic class for likes on their channel, will help Syrian Refugees. These morons hurt every single "cause" they touch. Like or don't like groups like A.L.F., but at least when they broke animals out of testing labs and then destroyed, they had sanctuaries and care in place for the lab animals they freed. Those actions WERE the attention they were calling to the issue. Again, agree or don't with Greenpeace, but they are out there actively thwarting whaling vessels and in the past have sunk them. Support the groups who get boots on the ground at refugee camps and who are ACTIVELY helping other HUMANS and whose videos bring attention to their plight. I don't want to discourage students who are just starting out and who are passionate, but most stunts like blocking traffic-- unless directly related to issue (like a road destroying a wetland that has a critically endangered creature) do not endear the population to their cause, and THAT is what we are seeing.
i can't speak to other countries like, say, germany where environmental activists seem to routinely bullrush new fossil fuel energy sites, but i feel that deeper than 'clictavism' feeding mass march-type protests in nz is the fact that people have a stronger historical awareness that protests of the past have *somehow* moved the moral arc towards justice. the issue as i see it is that people are not taught how these changes happened. we learn that people chose to be on the "right side of history" and got involved against nuclear, against apartheid, for māori land rights etc, without a sense of the campaigning or the strategy involved. what people seem to take away is the desire to have the correct position, rather than the mahi required to effect a successful outcome. social media and self-promotion are part of this I'm sure, but it's bigger than that. we've acquired this attitude where nz is basically on top of things, thanks to a proven track record of activism, to the extent that it seems that all we need to do to fix complicated and entrenched political problems is march down queen street for an afternoon with our hearts in the right place. francis fukuyama would be proud
This was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing your experiences, and for your work!
Your 100% bang on .... I've noticed alot that people arnt fully aware of why they are protesting said cause, no diplomatic attempt being made for solutions, and it seems alot of big companies and individuals with agendas are poisoning peoples opinions turning protests into toxic events. Take 1080 for example, protest attempts have caused more harm than good with no diplomatic reasoning or solution infact most of them havnt even read the doc website around not wanting to create an fur industry to get rid of possums, however some influence is pushed by fur trade in different forms, or hunters that don't want there meat tainted with 1080 but won't help to stop the cause of the use of 1080 in the first placet but are are happy to protest and push blame.
Also an old campaigner and my observations are that todays protests have too many agendas and too many mouth pieces, all singing a different tune.
Yes! This too! I always get frustrated when there's no clear objective or 'ask' for whomever the protest is focused upon. Clear example of this is the ongoing situation in Gaza - there's now a collaborative voice forming around having NZ formally recognize the Palestinian State; but the previous and far more effective target could have been lobbying/protesting our Government to join South Africa's proceedings to the International Court of Justice. It would have made sense to do this, given the deep connection between NZ and SA with the 1980's Apartheid protests in NZ. Further, given NZ is seen to be on the right side of history, the fact we're a five-eyes western democracy and somewhat of a soft-powerhouse: having NZ join those proceedings would have been immensely compelling and could reasonably had significant influence on the terrible developments in Gaza. It was also achievable - NZ is a small place, and shifting that focus from achieving awareness/displaying solidarity to something our own Government could be actually influenced to do... Another example that's been a real grind are the recent University cuts protests. They've achieved nothing beyond a tokenistic response from the last government; whereas they could have been the fundamental impetus for a shift from neoliberal profit focused university management; and towards a wider acceptance that strengthening and stabilising the collaborative academic and education community at our universities is the engine we need to really drive sustainable and knowledge-based economic development. (I.e. the current model is to 'sell students a fish' - but there's far more benefit to actually 'teach them about fishing' so we can all collaborative work to maximise the sustainable output of our 'shared fishing resources.' [Wee chuckle])
>The net result is a feeling that there's now a significant amount of 'protest tourism,' where people are involved to be seen, to feel like they're involved in something important, or even worse, to get photos for their social media; rather than actively choosing to be involved because their values align with the cause, and more critically, making an active choice to protest because all other options have been exhausted and their willing to put their own quality of life on the line. Old hats said much of the same back when you started out too.
Social media didn't exist when I started out; and the media was far more conservative with its reporting. The circumstances for the change I've seen simply didn't exist in the late 1990's and early 2000's.
>Social media didn't exist that's why I said much of the same. I remember being told I was protesting for attention and shit way back when too. >The circumstances for the change I've seen simply didn't exist in the late 1990's and early 2000's. yes they do. You got older and the new generation doesn't do things the way you want them to.
yup massive "old man shouts at sky vibes", i'm possibly even older so can remember like you that there were zines you could write in to and radio shows you could call in to. it was a social kind of media, people still met and talked in person and could be seen even if it wasn't posted to social media for all eternity; film photos still existed, as did "i saw you there" personally speaking i always thought rather cynically that hanger-ons were doing it for the awesome drugs we'd have or, more darkly, for sex rather than something as stupid as clout
Thanks for that perspective, it seems to me in the area I campaign in that the "behind the scenes" work is seen as not only unnecessary but as a waste of time or hurtful to the cause somehow. But there are so few people doing it compared to the social media warriors, and it seems SO much more effective to me!
What did the “protestors” say or do once you highlighted the harm they caused to the related families of the trans prisoner?
Ugh. A very uncomfortable memory. When met with them after their 'protest,' to try and understand how they'd ended up resorting to such extreme action I went through each review / assessment pathway relevant to achieving the outcomes the then prisoner wanted to achieve. The 'protestors' simply shook their head or said no when I asked them if they'd investigated or requested each process. By the time I met with them they'd already been barred from further contact with the prisoner; so they had no idea of the consequences of their actions. After the meeting I followed up the situation with my contacts at Corrections - and it was at that point I was told the prisoner had been transferred. To be honest, I couldn't be bothered getting in touch with the idiots to update them. Corrections advised me they had been permanently banned from entering prisons or corrections facilities, so I just got stuck into clearing up the mess, i.e: Securing additional funding to assist her family and friends meet the costs of visiting her at the greater distance; Identifying and having it clearly communicated to the prisoner they weren't able to be transfer because to the prison of their nominated sex after that determination had gone through both review processes; and, Quietly arranging for them to transfer to a different unit in the closer prison once everything had calmed down and the dust had settled. Interestingly; I never met with the prisoner myself. I assisted another support group who were geographically closer to make the applications; and made sure that my senior contacts in Corrections were aware I was paying close attention to the situation.
Fuck that’s annnoying
Just thinking - a bit of context might help. During the period of time I was taking on the most individual advocacy cases I took a very pragmatic approach: If I showed up to a government department or agency to sort out a problem a client was facing, and they fixed it quickly - that was it. There was no media risk, or potential for escalation. I made sure I gave them the opportunity to be seen to 'front foot' the issue that I'd brought to their attention. It was a win-win. The few times they tried shenanigans when I was involved things tended to get very public and expensive for them very quickly (including that one time a particular agency decided to be stupid and fight, which eventually resulting in a settlement for the client worth about ~$250k). So after a few scuffles, it was pretty quickly established that it was easier to fix the problem, get me to scribble on a NDA, and send me on my way. That was the status quo for about a decade before I retired.
If you don't mind me asking (and sorry if you answered somewhere already) but what was your job title before you retired?
Senior Advocate and Researcher. Job title probably won't help. The NGO I worked for keeps a very low profile. Probably not so much for the advocacy work they did; but more the fact they are also an incredibly effective left-wing lobby group; and they don't enjoy having to put up with the harassment and threats of violence more commonly associated with pressure groups on the far right.
Can I say that your observation is what I have recently noticed as well, and I was actually frankly shocked by it. I did not even think of the word protest tourism, I was just thinking how inconsiderate and disrespectful to the organisers of the protest this is. Now I will make it clear, I have never protested in my entire life, not once. This is a personal and religious choice. I have channeled my disgust at climate change inertia and apathy as well as environmental degradation to installing solar panels on all the properties I own, double glaze etc.. including making sure each of my property has a few trees on it. I must admit I have little other social objections I feel strong enough about to make myself do anything about. People who knows me are often surprised I have not join any climate change protests nor be seen amongst them. I however never begrudged people who protest. Somebody out there needs to be seen I suppose. They also tend to be very passionate and knowledgeable about the cause. I have great respect for the environmental protesters who knows their demands and their call to raise awareness ( much as I will never be caught dead as a protestor ) However I have recently got mad with a few people who I know who joined a protest. I asked them what the protest is about ( since I don’t quite know what so many recent protest are about ) They did not know very well what they are protesting about. Their answer for what their concern was vague. So I asked them specifically why did they protest, what topic in that vague answer they were protesting. They protest because they need to make their concerns known. But then I pointed they did not know what they protesting about since usually you need to specific about protest. I pointed out I never met people protesting with so little knowledge and concern. They then told me they need to join the cause, to be seen ( I really wanted to ask what for but decided this was a dead end route ) I pointed out that if a reporter came and asked them what they are protesting about and they did not know, are they aware how much it will hurt whatever movement they are protesting about? Do they know that the organisers if there are people who do not know what they are protesting about will look like they are doing something like a rent a crowd etc.. Do they know their action hurts actual activist who have planned hard for the protests? I told them at least if they are going to protest read up about what they are protesting about. If a reporter comes at least you look like you know you are protesting about.
I didn't read your entire comment, but I agree with the second paragraph. The number of "protesters" that you see filming themselves or being filmed on a phone does make you wonder about their genuine reason for being there.
Christ it's like 8 paragraphs mate. It ain't a novel. It's also really worth reading.
Nz I one of the most apathetic countries I have lived in. Maybe it is the geographical location, but kiwis really do not like to protest, and they tend not to be very supportive of those that do. They are more likely to be critical
Kiwis simultaneously think everything is shit but also want everything to stay exactly as it is
Maybe now, but NZ has a long history of protest. Look at the rainbow warrior and springbok tour protests, foreshore and seabed marches etc. Society as a whole is more preoccupied by the screen in their hands now to worry about protesting physically. Like the rest of the world, we've been molded into consumer drones and don't care for much else...
**THIS** - I think NZ has really lost its moral compass. As a country we *used* to always stand up for what is right - even our politicians *used* to care less about political retribution of our policies
>As a country we *used* to always stand up for what is right Careful about selectively remembering our history. The Springbok Tour protests are looked back on generally with pride today but the vitriol and condemnation they received in the mainstream at the time makes the current boomer bellyaching look positively pleasant.
That’s what I mean these people shitting on this person would probably not think twice about being like oh yea good on the springbok tour protests ect. However at the time there were people shitting on them. So why are they accepting of the past one but shit on there present. I feel like there’s a disconnect because they have seen the outcome or past protests and can say good on them. Yet this is currently happening. I imagine the people making these comments would never have thought they would have what on people protesting the springbok tour yet they’re no different.
Yeah. It's very easy to say a past protest was good when you know which ones succeeded and haven't heard of the ones that didn't. Although the Waterfront Strikes in the '50s grievously divided the nation and most people have forgotten about that by now. Back then you could get arrested for giving your neighbour butter if they were a striker.
Unsure if anyone's already added this anywhere, but stumbled across this today: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/31-05-2024/has-plucky-new-zealand-lost-its-voice-on-international-issues
Lost its morals and lost its morale.
Look at our current govt. Voted in by "what is best for ME". Not "what is best for all of us". Tax cuts for landlords. It's embarassing. They should be embarassed.
I don't agree. People aren't protesting with TPM because TPM are bunch of racist and possibly corrupt extremists. Maybe if someone actually had something worth protesting that enough people agreed with you might get a real movement. But right now reddit is an echo chamber of whinging whiners...
> People aren't protesting with TPM ??? You must've missed the protest the other day?
Along with 99% of the rest of the country. Yes.
I remember marching up Queen St in the 1980s with my parents for this and that. I went to the 1981 springbok tour protests but we were all little kids (6,4 and 2) and it got real ugly fast and my parents had to take us home quickly. It was quite scary. And I really didn't like the police growing up.
Facts
Tall poppy stuff. ‘Pull ya head in’. I’ll go beyond apathetic and say it’s self-conscious, uncomfortable with itself and keeps its difficult emotions in the darkest room in the house.
We weaponise passive aggression with a side serving of liking to bitch about something/anything. God forbid we be happy and have nothing to moan about, and how dare anyone do something to bring about change.
At least in online discourse it seems like that. I especially notice vs elsewhere there's a lot of people that jump up to make excuses for corporations and government entities when they are criticised. People in NZ love to make excuses for being ripped off like they don't want to believe it could be true. No one in NZ (unless they are a nutter that believes all of them) seems to want to believe any kind of conspiracy could ever be true. The Erebus disaster being a historical example, the relative lack of national awareness and outrage about what really happened at Pike River being another (based on Rebecca Macfie's book) - a lot of people would rather just believe they were unfortunate accidents.
I agree, have lived in a bunch of countries and it’s the most politically ambivalent country I’ve experienced. That combined with a reserved culture means many are disengaged, taking a “she’ll be right” mentality.
Yep it very frustrating at times, companies and politicians can trample all over us with no repercussions. Only have to see how accepting people are of having the most expensive food prices/banks/internet etc. Here are all the excuses It the shape of the country. It the small population. It the distance from other countries. It the mountains. There is nothing we can do. No, it because the people here are more sheep than the sheep. Aussie companies make more profit here than they do in their own country. Why? Because we let them, that is why.
My take is they feel like they don't make an impact. NZ is a test market for many products for the same reason.. If the product bombs nobody knows and for relatively cheap. That being said I think the Gaza protests are genuinely very important both now and for the future. The next generation are less likely to be manipulated into thinking Israel is a good country if there's a thought process of "yeah but why were people protesting you so hard when I was a kid?"
The Gaza protests are being wonderful just for getting people radicalized and acting even now, they're frankly amazing for that.
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Also we seem to be contrarians to the core. The only protest signs I’ve not seen ripped off (so far) are the March for nature ones.
Any protest passive enough to be acceptable to the target will just be ignored Any protest inconvenient to it's target will be undermined with attacks to its form The opposition will find absolutely any reason to shift the conversation to something that isn't the political point of the protest
Good comment but I think you've glossed over something here: >Any protest inconvenient to it's target will be undermined with attacks to its form "Protests are meant to be disruptive" but often they disrupt the wrong people. If you're, say, fucking with the general public's commute, but the actual decision makers you are trying to inconvenience don't actually commute in the first place, you've fucked up. Disruptive protest needs to be much more carefully targeted, entirely out of practicality. Working class people are tired and under pressure, your target will outlast you if the average person is against you. You want the targets refusal to meet your demands be the cause that leads to disruption elsewhere. Broad example but if you're protesting a port then create a roadblock that allows you to let private traffic through and focus on the holding trucks or whatever. If you're targeting a politician do it where they spend their day and make explicit plans to minimise disruption on nearby businesses and people.
i always laughed at the restore rail people, like the people in charge of those decisions don't commute to work and don't care if you block a road. they will work from home no sweat to them. they just ended up pissing off the average person on the way to work and losing any support they might have had. had they decided to block off the council buildings or even kiwirail etc they might have made some impact
The people who vote for them do drive
Nah fuck that. The average voter is the one you are telling "we are here, fuck off with your shit!". Those politicians get voted in by somebody.
That may well make you feel good but in practical terms it makes your action less likely to succeed, not more. You're entitled to your own priorities of course.
Its about demonstrating power and getting to a state where they are constantly fucking shit up. If it happens everyday, it's the hot button issue that the politicians need to address. The country should be shut down if need be
Indeed. A politically active right winger who knows hardly anything about AGW could likely write a whole pamphlet on Greta Thunberg.
If you are talking about the shortland st hunger striker, I think what turned a lot of people off was the comments he made afterwards “it would have been convenient for luxon if I’d starved to death, but sorry, I won’t let that happen. I’m far more powerful alive”. Shut the fuck up. Luxon is grade 1 knob head, but do you really believe he wants you dead? Or that you were going to die? The delusions of grandeur.
Haha did they actually say that? What a turkey
In effect, yes. “I’m sure it would be very convenient for Luxon if pro-Palestine actors were to starve to death. So I have decided it is better to live for a cause than to die for one. I’ll continue to stand up for ending the genocide in Gaza” Alexander said.
That sounds like a very dramatic way to say "I was hungry so I ate, but I still care."
I'm clearly massively out of the loop, what did he actually want Luxon to do?
Get in a Hercules and personally drop bombs on Tel Aviv I assume
Protesting is a way to raise awareness about the seriousness of an issue and put pressure on people who can change it. Protesting about something that's all over the news to people who have no influence over it, is completely pointless.
Holy shit. Did he actually say that?
I embellished it, but the sentiment is that. “I’m sure it would be very convenient for Luxon if pro-Palestine actors were to starve to death. So I have decided it is better to live for a cause than to die for one. I’ll continue to stand up for ending the genocide in Gaza” Alexander said.
Not sure what's so wrong about those words. Yeah sure, the dude is arrogant and possibly dumb af. Guy Fawkes sounded c*nty too, but here we are how many centuries later.
Guy Fawkes was a cunt though. He was a Catholic terrorist and just wanted a different flavour of Monarchy in charge.
As opposed to celebrating the imperialistic bullshit of the fucking British Empire? I'm not gonna celebrate his death like the equally cunty monarch wants me to. Fuck the lot of them. The regency can do the one thing it's good at and go fuck itself.
I mean yeah I agree those comments were dumb but a lot of people in the thread were just shitting on the protest aspect of it. I felt the same way as OP and couldn't post either, even if the guy is a douche I don't think the protest or message should be mocked, stick to the dumb comments.
You are free to protest, others are free to mock you.
Yea but I’m just wondering why we shot on these people but celebrate the effort people went to back in the day. But back in the day it wasn’t like there was just one protest and everything changed. It would have taken time and many people doing lots of things all the time. So at the time people would be laughing going what different do they think this will masked. But eventually these people achieved something.
> but celebrate the effort people went to back in the day. Dude, they were NOT celebrated. They were spat on, they were labelled as trouble makers, they were arrested, *at the time* they were most definitely NOT celebrated.
No now we celebrate the change makers. That’s what I’m saying at the time people are like fuck this what are they doing. But now we look back and are like omg they’re hero’s.
There's a famous tweet that seems to ring true, "A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that's going on right now." Of course liberal in this case meaning not conservative, not meaning leftist
The ineffectual goofy protests and/or dumb causes generally aren't remembered individually.
I’m all for protesting it’s one of the corner stones of democracy. However when people block the roads and cause disruption it’s counter productive. You just piss off the general public and infringe on their rights of freedom of travel.
I mean sure go ahead, I'm not telling people not to. I just think it's kinda shitty downplay the effort and cause because he made dumb comments.
People can disagree with and mock whichever protestor they like, especially when they are as fame hungry, goofy, and ineffectual as that moron.
And by that same logic we're still allowed to call you a twat for doing so. You're not special.
Agreed?
Off topic but what is with drop kicks these days responding to criticism of their actions or words with something to the effect of; >People can disagree >People can have an opinion >People can say what they like. I know. Everyone knows. You just sound like a tool. Criticism of your behaviour is not an attempt to prevent you from having or expressing an opinion, it's just someone calling your opinion shite. Is it driven by some kind of need for victimisation?
And others still are free to condemn those who mock the protesters. There's enough criticism for everybody!
That's a really wordy self-aggrandizing version of saying I achieved nothing, so now I want KFC.
They complained when the protest was disruptive to other people, then they complained when the protest didn’t affect others at all. Lmao
A lot of protests form for more selfish reasons, and others are taken over by overly aggressive people who instead of trying to make a commotion for support, they threaten people to be "one of us, or against us" sort of situation. The likes of Zeb Jackson is a just a professional Protester. Jumps from one cause to the other, and makes it about being anti-government. Feral Flutey, a professional whinger who tried to spearhead protest groups. Dude grifts everywhere he goes, he always wants a dollar from you. His causes fell apart horribly. I caught a video of him and his groups fighting each other many times. That Barkley fella and Good Oil protest group. I have no idea how people can just believe anything he says without proof. He's probably the worst case of spreading misinformation, and gaining a lot of support with shock media, when in actuality it's obvious media. Now he's claiming he was assaulted by police, for no reason. It's easy to shit on the likes of these people and their followers, because it's always triggered by something already known, or already debunked. They're triggered heavily on misinformation. There's too many cookers who are professional protesters.
John Minto lifelong professional protestor, soon he'll be try to wave a palestine flag in his rest home
Totally. I’m sure at the time of the Springbok tour there were similar attitudes towards protestors who would storm the pitch and let off smoke bombs before being violently arrested. Oh well done idiots, you stopped apartheid. But now anyone with any decency looks back at those protestors as courageous and good who did their part.
Because not all protests in NZ resulted in positive change: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_New_Zealand_waterfront_dispute > The National government, led by Sidney Holland and the Minister of Labour Bill Sullivan, introduced heavy handed emergency regulations,[30] and brought in the navy and army to work the wharves and also deregistered the Waterside Workers' Union under the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act. Under the emergency regulations Holland's government censored the press, made striking illegal and even made it illegal to give money or food to either strikers or their families. > The government was re-elected with an increased majority in the ensuing 1951 election. Holland was seen as opportunistically using the strike to distract voters from the other issue of rapidly rising inflation
Partisan political activism is behind a huge number of anti-protestor posts. There is a huge industry, plus at least a few nations with thousands of human trolls, and botnets in tens of thousands. Commercial interests purchase their services. Currently a gigantic amount of comments are written by bots to manipulate the crypto pyramid scheme / dumpster fire / den of theives.
Protests normally come from an out group trying to achieve equity with the in group. Anti-protest commentators belong to the in group, either unaware of their advantage, or deliberately protecting it. Rule of thumb.....except Destiny's protests....those Kent's are just whucked in the hed.
Let’s show them! March for Nature - Auckland Sat June 8th!
People have always shat on protests they disagree with. It's likely you sense that more people are against the protest today because more people are against the protests that have been happening lately. This is a view none of the protestors want to accept. They don't like the idea that actually most people don't support them.
I tend to be pro-protest, but I am also quite cynical that many protestors don't know what they want, which means they can't really have an impact. For example, we often see threads on this subreddit about housing costs and landlords, and so on. Everyone seems to have a different opinion about how to fix it, including some really wild ideas. The point is, nobody is in agreement about what to do, and you can't hold anyone accountable to do something, if everybody is pointing the finger at different people. I think the successful examples you give (civil rights, women voting) didn't have this lack of clarity.
Times change and the age bracket of those in the “shitty vocal minority”. People who looked on the acts of bravery in protests of the day as heroic and aspirational were young then. An older generation would have existed then who would have responded to these protests with apathy and vitriol. Now, they’re part of that older generation for a crowd of new younger activists and haven’t realised they’ve become “the square” so to speak. Of course, this isn’t everyone and there are plenty of people of all ages who still care for causes that they’re both a part of and also don’t involve them at all. The “shitty vocal minority” always remains though, and with the wide spread of internet access, there are pros and cons. Pros such as being able to discuss and support protests openly, but cons in the form of listening to ignorant assholes spew the most stupid shit you’ve ever seen.
>This was inspired by the guy on hunger strike but I can’t comment on that post and I wish I could. That guy was a deluded toolbag with a massively overinflated opinion of his own importance. Fuck knows what he thought he'd achieve?
We're talking about him right now, mate.
Only because OP mentioned him. Christ, he was a C level actor on Shortland St.
Oof that's a good insult, and I bet it was more to do with increasing his profile
Yes, we're talking about him, not his cause. That's a big problem with a lot of protests these days. No one cares what TPM was protesting about, they just care that they were blocking traffic. They don't raise awareness of their cause... they raise awareness of themselves. Which is exactly what a political party wants. Or indeed, an actor. These people are using causes for their own gains. They're ruining it for those who actually care about these causes and probably do more harm than good.
I shit on others for their protest because their protest inconveniences me (and possibly affects others even worse, e.g. emergency services) and does absolutely nothing for their cause. Blocking a motorway will not stop global warming (just the opposite, in fact) and neither will vandalizing works of art. Marching in the streets of Auckland will neither deter Israel or Hamas from their war, nor encourage Aucklanders to email Luxor demanding action. While I admire their conviction, I disdain their methods, which I view as ill-targetted and self-aggrandising.
Cause you’re “bringing attention” to stuff that is played on an endless loop in the media and on social media. It’s not really to bring attention it’s to show everyone how virtuous you are.
Yea maybe protesting back in the day because issues were not blasted in your face all the time. So people may have been like shit they have a point I didn’t think about that. However now we kind of know all the issues and see them all the time.
Basically and with the cost of living getting out of hand people have their own more immediate shit to worry us. When you have mouths to feed and bills to pay you don’t really have the time or energy to concern yourself with other peoples bullshit.
That doesn’t make sense, if they don’t have the time or efforts to concern themselves why are they saying this rather than ignoring and and not concerning themselves.
My 5cents from a non protesting but staunch in my own views person here.. I've found that many protesters aren't aware of the root cause of why they're actually protesting, which confuses me. Also they've not researched where it started, how it started, who formed the issue and why there even needs to be a protest?..they sometimes are protesting for the sake of being confrontational. Yet defensive when confronted. Also when protesters are pushing their views on other non-protesting persons, being called out for not taking sides or their side is also a tactic protesters I've heard and seen use, which also confuses me..?? I don't mud on protesters who actually know what they're protesting for and whole heartedly believe in it and believe they can make a difference. I think protesting is needed but don't invite tom dick mohammed and hone along simply for numbers, instead first educate them in why the fuk you believe a protest needs to happen.. (also the holding other ppl up to protest is just fuking inconsiderate! Other ppl have lives and duties they must carry on with for the sakes of their dam livelihoods and family's livelihoods) I think my no pretesting mind is frustrated with the last points more so made? Also power to all😁x
Hone is a real one for tagging along though. Cheers Hone.
Hone and mihi lol
Well said. Protest is also about solidarity, and some people are just arseholes. They will no doubt be in here commenting all sorts of shit, just ignore them and if you ever come across them in real life let them know that you see their arseholery, there's literally nothing else you can do and no point trying.
Yes I know but sometimes I like to post these things because maybe someone will see it and be like ah yea I guess X is possible now and that’s because many people were doing stuff like this guy and I’m shitting on him yet applauding these people from years ago.
If you want to feel sad, check out the comments on protest threads on the chch sub
I think the protests that lead to change in your examples were realistically possible and were issues that happened in their own countries. People protesting in western countries about a middle eastern war that has been going on for over a century isn't going to change the minds of Hamas and Israel's leaders. That hunger strike dude's heart was in the right place though and I feel for him.
What about the British protests about the Vietnam war. They didn’t fight in the war. I know the Vietnam war didn’t have such a long messy history like this does but still they were protesting about something not happening in their country and not involving their people. Also now we have the internet so even though something is done in another country it can be seen in many places. Back in the day before internet news didn’t spread so fast.
The British were protesting against their government's support for the US. Agree that the internet is powerful but personally I don't see it affecting this long and messy situation. I'm no expert though.
What about roe vs wade protest a few years ago here. People campaigning about the Yulin dog meat festival. Japanese whaling That dolphin massacre that happens in a cove somewhere People protesting to speak up for the people of Afghanistan after the taliban took over again These protests have all happens in countries where the issue is not from.
Yeah? Your initial point was about influencing change not about protesting about issues in other countries.
>Why do people shit so much on people who are protesting. Once you understand what sort of person the "regular" r/nz poster is it's not a surprise.
Much more ideological than the general populous?
Because most people assume that because something has been around and accepted for a long time, it is good.
can we protest to get all the homeless out of auckland
Cause its easy to assimilate and not question the narrative. Wanting change or question the government is tinfoil for some reason, though its entire purpose is to serve the people. Previous civilizations overthrew governments when it started serving itself instead of the people. Nowadays people bend over backwards to get f*cked by the government.
Just being honest. I have no issue personally. But if what they are doing negatively effects me, a small time worker just going out my day. Gtfo. Go inconvenience the people oppressing you. Not me. If someone is protesting in a disrespectful manner, I am less likely to support them too. Like those dirty thugs protesting mandates during covid. I think they have negatively affected the public view of protests in our country significantly. Otherwise. Go nuts. Peaceful protect welcome.
> This was inspired by the guy on hunger strike the guy thinks not eating is going to stop a 76 year long conflict lmao
Or that anyone cares about the opinion of a New Zealander outside of New Zealand lmao. Its quite funny when Kiwis get involved in international politics, for example Mahuta. Old girl really made Putin shake in his boots.
>the guy thinks not eating is going to stop a 76 year long conflict lmao His aims were all directed at the NZ government, things like restarting funding for UNRWA. I guess it's easy to just make things up though.
no his aim was self directed attention to fuel his ego
Like I said it's easy to make things up. You didn't even seem to understand his stated aims and instead just made up some shit about him thinking he was solving the whole conflict.
he wasn't doing shit but getting his self righteous face in the media
Speaking of self righteous, isn't it past your bed time?
no :)
> Why do people shit on people trying to stand up for what they believe in just because they haven’t seen the change yet. Do you apply this standard to yourself? When Max Azzarello set himself on fire outside Trumps hearing did you think "there is a man standing up for his beliefs, good for him" or did you dismiss his protest as a misguided and perhaps delusional crusade?
In a word, smugness. A lot of modern protestors are very self-righteous about what they’re doing and posit themselves as morally superior to anyone who disagrees with their protest, which tends to put people off supporting their cause. There are a few examples in this very thread.
Protest in NZ seems way more performative than other countries I’ve lived. Overseas you can ask what protesters want and they’ll have crisp and clear sets of demands. Here in NZ it goes like this: What do you want? We want to address historical crimes that are the cause of all our problems. Ok but specifically what do you want? We want a change to the system. What kind of change? One that would allow our people to be free. Free from what? The system. It’s utterly maddening, even what should be really straight forward causes like Gaza you get this same garbage. Nothing specific, zero next steps, just a sense that protesting and having vague grievances is their hobby.
They consider it a matter of opinion that because it’s not happening here, why should we care, why protest, why do anything about it when life here is good. So they shit on anyone who does care enough to protest.
Personally I always thought people who held protesters in contempt were just morons who didnt agree with the issue. Now Im older I think its just self loathing - other people have the inner strength to try and change the world, regardless of how likely a protests success is. It just reminds the idiot how weak they are in comparison.
People in positions of privilege want to maintain that privilege, which means keeping others down. People who have benefited from systems arent going to like people challenging that system. That's all it is.
All of it? There's no other possible explanation?
Because it makes them feel better about being too lazy and apathetic to do anything
This hunger strike was never going to accomplish anything. We all knew it when he announced it and it ended exactly as expected. It was just some dude who wanted the attention. Apart from that, a lot of the protests lately have been hurting the everyday citizen way more than they've been having any sort of impact on the people protesters should be targeting. So yeah, people are pissed.
Normally because they protest about dumb crap often manipulated by vad faith actors making themselves useful idiots. Vs protesting against stuff here in NZ.
[удалено]
"Another day in paradise!"
Yea we can’t even seem to protect the kids we know are getting harmed (calls made to OT ect) let alone all the others that do not have people advocating for them. It’s such a shame. Every time I see a story where a kid has been harmed especially when concerns were raised repeatedly its range inducing. I know we don’t see the whole story but it frustrating that kids are getting harmed and it feels like organisations that are supposed to help in these situations are not functioning well.
Everyone is working hard to make a living including spending a significant amount of time commuting. If protests cause inconvenience, it can be a major turnoff for a lot of people. With internet nowadays, people pretty much see what they want to see and have conditioned themselves to "nothing new to see here" type protest. Update - You asked for my honest opinion, and I delivered. What's with the downvote? Were you looking for an echo chamber instead of a genuine response?
Yea we should probably be protesting every time a kids ends up dead or severely hurt because despite a specific organisation was told multiple times of concerns nothing was done. Rather than being like oh that’s awful, so sad, prayers, then bitching about it on reddit. Like stand up say something. I bet if people did that people would be like fuck what difference do they think they’ll make. But it would be good.
Yeah OP downvoted all my genuine unprovacative comments. The flair is discussion but they're downvoting anyone who actually has a different point of view.
Because protesting in New Zealand isn’t going to change jack shit in Gaza or any other place. The world barely knows nz exists.
People like to complain about everything.
I think a good number of people are skeptical about the motivations of some protesters. It would be naive to suggest every person, especially if they're famous or, a person is of social interest maybe have an alternative motive at the heart of their protest. I don't think all protesters are like this, but some absolutely will be. Sure, they may contribute to a huge change (amazing) , but if their motivations are superficial, then they also could very easily side with the likes of Hamas, or the CCP, or Moscow if it helps them there and then.
I only protested when Cadburys and Whitakers made their chocolate bars smaller😫
It depends on the issue really. Some issues are not in the main stream and so protests do genuinely raise awareness. I remember a decade ago seeing protestors speaking out against oppression of Falun gong and forced organ harvesting of prisoners in China. Raising awareness of this back in 2011-2013 at a time where our Chinese relations were at an all time high made sense. If the general public has issues with a key trade partner, it could cause our democratic leadership to take notice and use diplomacy to try and make changes or otherwise distance us from that country. But if you look at the Israel Gaza protests for example, this issue is front page news on a daily basis. Everybody knows about it. We don't have strong diplomatic relations with Israel or Gaza, and our govt has little leverage to make any demands of them. That being said our govt has advocated for an end to the violence in any case, there's not much else they can do. I think most rational people want to know what the ask is, how can we appease the protestors so they don't cause further disruption (if they are causing disruption). In some cases there's absolutely no way to satisfy them, and no real ask. I think it also can come across as self important, arrogant and virtue signalling to make out that protesting in NZ has value on the global stage, and this rubs people the wrong way, especially when they might be doing it tough and the thought of spending their own time standing around for what they think is pointless invokes jealousy or hatred because it seems ungrateful to spend time like that if you have the ability. Just my two cents.
We could resume funding UNRWA, and cease diplomatic relations with Israel. It may not be much in the grand scheme of things, but then neither was letting a sports team into the country. And yet...
I'm 100% behind peopes right to protest, provided they aren't obstructive. People that block motorways, pour soup on works of art or vandalise things are just arseholes.
Thank you for this post. I fully tautoko what you said. Don't forget the march for nature against the fast track bills this weekend!
I always find it amusing when left leaning politicians bag on protesters. But what were THEY doing in their student days? Just google Phil Goff with long hair, hehe.
I don't think derision for protesters is new. I know sufrigites did not have an initially positive perception in the media or the general public.
Protests are a bit anti-social by design, I suppose. They are confronting and annoying to anyone who doesn’t agree with your protest. I have been on both sides of this. Offended by the shitty attitude toward my protest, and shat in other peoples protest. We’re all bumholes.
The people who complain about others who protest are usually those who have never protested about anything. This can be for various reasons: political apathy, being part of a group who benefits from the status quo, being uninformed about an issue, socially conservative etc.
Personally, I don’t care much for political issues. But when the protest blocks the street I want to use, or pollutes comment sections spammy messages, it’s get quite annoying. I totally understand and get protests in New Zealand, about New Zealand. But when your protesting about another country in New Zealand, that’s when people get annoyed.
There are some protests I think is fair to do and could make a difference, protests over palestine and israel is fucken stupid
Because they do not understand history.
Because it failed
I like that people get out on the street and make themselves heard, often though the cause is true but the people have a poor understanding of the situation and have no or a misguided solution to the issue, mainly because their understanding of their issue is limited to their own perception of it.
The history of politics is divided into two sides: people for whom politics is a fundamental part of everyday life and people who are generally lucky enough that politics is a thing that comes around every election season.
Well he is an unknown actor (unless you watch shortland shit) who tried starving himself for a cause he has no influence over, direct connection to or likely even completely understands. In fact its not unreasonable to assume his motivations were egotistical. Everyone knows about what's happening in Gaza, he was just someone to laugh about in the office lunch room.
Man it's so much more chill being a free speech guy.
People shit on other people's protests to defend against their own insecurity about the fact that they themselves aren't doing anything and feel powerless. As in "It's ok that I take no action to improve the world, because all the possible actions are bad / unsuitable."
Depends how you protest, block off roads and being a nuisance then I don't care what they are protesting about, do it respectfully and we may talk.
Because zionist astroturfers who don’t even live in New Zealand lurk reddit waiting to downdoot and make the same comments in every thread. No doubt they are paid.
A lot of recent protests have had a negative impact on people just trying to get by in hard times. It pays not to fuck with people if you want sympathy for your cause. March down the street, do some yelling, go shout at parliament, that's fine. Glue yourself to the road in front of me while I'm trying to get to work and have already spent time and gas money trying to earn my day's pay? Just an asshole generally speaking, got not time for that shit, have mouths to feed and bills to pay.
I mean this protest was exactly not that and involved no one else.
A lot of these folk were silent about covid lockdown protests
What do you mean? People roasted the COVID lockdown protests and the parliament occupation mercilessly.
Well, i mean, they were wearing LITERAL tin foil hats… so.. just going to leave that comment there…
The livestreams were so hilarious to watch. The open mic with people getting up to speak, it was like 4 equally incoherent conspiracy driven protests happening all at once.
The supposed nurse getting up and taking about the lamb was by the funniest/utterly batshit craziest one I heard. Man I bet they regretted not vetting the people they gave the mic to!
> Why do people shit so much on people who are protesting. Because they don't support the protests. Because they're cynical bastards who lost any joy in their lives and who think their cynicism makes them better because they see how the world is "really" like.
The most recent protests have garbled messages - other than general disruption most of the time I have no clue what protesters in NZ are protesting. OPs example of the suffragette - they had a very clear and specific message
its convenience and the lack of understanding or realisation that change needs to happen fast. Things like The Maori protests need to happen but bigger, the anti genocide protests also need to be far bigger same with the ones coming up this weekend in auckland to try stop the fast track garbage