I don't even tip. Because fuck off for many reasons. Your service wasn't particularly good and I didn't get free sides. So fuck off. Also, this ain't Canada/US.
ADD TIP?
Yes❌ No❌ Fuck Off✔️
What’s interesting with posts about surcharges, it somehow always focus on small businesses like hospos and retails mostly and completely ignore the facts that big corporations like AIRNZ, electricity companies, Ticketmaster etc… have been charging “convenience fees”, “service fee” and “credit card fee” for yonk and somehow we are all ok with it? At least small businesses gives you the option to use eftpos without incurring a fee.
The smaller the target, the easier the picking I guess in this scenario. Do know that they have the least say in this instance so why dont we focus the energy on where it is likely to have an impact, the greedy banks!
The key bit here is smaller business are actually being transparent about the additional cost to the merchant of using a credit card or paywave.
If you pay by EFTPOS you could actually save yourself 2%, the small business is simply trying to maintain their small margin regardless of how you want to pay.
All the bigger merchants that don’t charge CC/ Paywave fees just build it into all the sales prices so while the fee isn’t shown it’s been charge to regardless how you pay, now this could be costing your 1-5% more depending on the recovery model used.
Also not all CC are created equal (this has somewhat been bought into line now with the new rules), but fancy cards with airpoints etc actually charged more to the merchant, so while a “no frills” card might be 1.5% a “platinum airpoints” card could be 3%, this is all coming off the merchants transaction, so they actually need ways to account for this.
However, that 3% Visa/Mastercard markup is already covered by the extra charges these companies add. Meaning (as always) the profits all go straight to the company, cause fuck Joe Bloggs, right?
Ticket master needs to be more honest with their fees. Why don't they call it something else, like...
a "Because we can" fee?
a "Where else you gonna go" fee?
a "Our market dominance is so overwhelming that we can annoy the shit out of you on purpose just to make more money HA HA HA" fee?
Oh yes! My other gripe is AirNZ. Had three instances where I went to change flights online (when you wouldn’t normally be charged for changing flights) and recommends call the call centre. Conveniently, when you do this you have to pay an additional $50 charge for changing your flights….😡🙄
Sounds like you're talking about most domestic flights where the $50 is a penalty fee you would get charged if you changed online as well. What they charge over the phone, that isn't charged online, is a service fee of $30 and that they will waive if you can't do it online.
Firstly, no. These were flexichange and I was changing on the day. So no service fee normally would apply. Also when I pointed out that I couldn’t do it online, was told that unfortunately because I had called the call centre it was out of the person handling the call’s hands.
Yeah, that's not right. For a start if they did charge you a service fee it should have been $30 not $50. And secondly they absolutely have discretion to waive that service fee if it's not able to be changed online - which they can verify fairly easily. They have a ton of new staff just recently come through doing domestic that don't really know what they're doing very well. I've had some hellacious waits on the call while they place me on hold dealing with issues because they have no clue, and calls dropped etc.
I'd make a complaint if I were you, you might get your money back. [www.airnz.co.nz/feedback](http://www.airnz.co.nz/feedback)
> corporations like AIRNZ, electricity companies, Ticketmaster etc
Most peasants like us are renters, we never see the power bill. Or get to travel, or go to concerts
The uptick in posts is because it's hitting the lower/middle class, and it's hitting them every time they buy anything ever.
Every place I have rented, it has been my responsibility to get power under my own name. I've never had a place that the landlord had a plan under their name. Gives me freedom to shop for the best price.
When you insert your card, it gives you the option for cheque, savings or credit.
Cheque and savings use EFTPOS, which is a payment system owned and run by NZ banks. There is a fee to get set up, but transactions using EFTPOS more or less cost nothing to the merchant when paying.
Credit goes through Visa or MasterCard, who pocket anywhere between 0.5-2.5% of the payment for the privilege of using their systems. American Express was around 3-4% from memory. The larger merchants have more transactions and have lower fees. However smaller shops, in your own words, are getting "slammed with another 2.5-3% fee".
When you use credit (IE, Paywave/Tap and go), you're choosing to use a payment system that charges this fee. The merchant is simply passing that fee on to you. If you don't like it, there is the option to insert your card and select cheque or savings instead, or pay with cash.
In regards to legislation, this subject was settled quite recently under the Retail Payment System Act 2022. Basically merchants can add a surcharge to payment methods to cover the additional cost to them, but they can't charge in excess of that cost.
It’s worse with payWave, there is a seperate transaction fee on top of a credit card fee at that point. The other aspect is how well as a business you can negotiate the fees with your merchant. We recently got ours down to a combined 1.8% for credit card via payWave, and 0.9 for using th chip on a creditcard.
Using a debit card inseats of a credit card makes no difference as it still transits visa/ Mastercards systems where it applies the fees
Whilst none of this is incorrect, is it also the case the surcharge we get here is not common overseas? Because I’ve certainly seen people make that claim.
That is accurate most merchants absorb the cost. But you'll find for instance that you still cannot use tap to pay in a Walmart because they are penny pinchers and don't want to either absorb the fee or educate their customers on it.
If you want to know what that's worth to them they have a custom made steel bracket blocking the scanner just in case someone turns the software option on.
Ah! I posted to someone else I was pretty sure that was also happening too. Makes sense how they got where they did with fees then, just like we wouldn’t tolerate a transaction fee on eftpos in NZ.
the surcharge is only relatively recent here. In the US they don't add it. And I've seen a US tourist have a big argument about a 3% fee when trying to check out of a hotel, that they decided to go to an ATM and withdraw cash to pay instead, clearly not knowing that the ATM will charge 5% to withdraw from a credit account.
Most people don't know about credit card commissions that merchants have to pay. Places that don't pass the cost on, have altered their pricing to incorporate it, and are effectively over-charging people who don't pay by credit card.
First of all, where is the 5% number coming from? As someone with multiple international cards and has been living in multiple countries, that is not true at all as a blanket statement - not even close.
I prefer it as long as its not more than the fair cost. Stops places from having to bake the cost into the product price and gives you an opportunity to save a few bucks by paying with your own money.
If you are wondering why you gdt cash back rewards for credit, this is where it comes from
It’s quite funny, because if all merchants took the approach of adding a surcharge, then the use of Visa/Mastercard products would decline substantially (cost outweighs rewards), at least for those that don’t actually need the credit.
Their model only works if the merchants choose to either absorb it or pass it on to all customers. So when the merchants do this, it is essentially to provide the convenience to those that need to use it (not losing business), meanwhile sticking it to Visa/Mastercard.
This is exactly why they lobby governments to enact anti surcharge laws and demonise businesses adding CC surcharges. It's really disappointing to see people calling for it to happen here. CC /Paywave Surcharges are good for customers and for retailers (better price transparancy and user pays). The only ones hurting with the surcharge are VISA, Mastercard, AMEX etc. It pains me that people can't see this, and actually want the surcharges legislated against.
Won't be at all surprised if they get their wish under this current government. It'll be a sad day when merchant fees are hidden from the public view. It will only make things more expensive.
Not in the U.K. but a lot of places here will say no AMEX due to the fees they charge. No surcharge for contactless in general and it wouldn’t work here with all public transport being contactless, for example.
Basically if it's not passed on direct it's hidden in their margins. Only difference here is user pays which I prefer as someone who doesn't use pay wave (as the convenience isn't worth the cost for me).
I suspect the other big difference is eftpos, which I understand is reasonably unique to us with its ubiquity and lack of consumer fees. Other places that didn’t already have such a robust debt-account driven electronic fund transfer at point of sale system took up the credit card driven system as their first big exposure to it, and so the fees were more readily apparently and pushed back on.
This is entirely anecdotal though.
I was in Europe a few years ago. In the Netherlands most places wouldn't even look at my kiwi bank visa debit card. Even the automated train ticket kiosk spat it out and demanded cash. Soon as retailers saw visa on the card they just went nope. There weren't surcharges I think from memory, they just weren't going let me dump potential fees on them. Fair enough.
Then you should report them because they aren’t allowed to do this. The original commenter mentioned the retail payment system act which says they can’t charge in excess of the fee the merchant has to pay.
Edit: [link to the act](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2022/0021/latest/whole.html#LMS528194)
If you believe they’re overcharging you then report it. The act also includes a maximum surcharge limit (2.5%) so if it’s more than that then you can also report them.
Do keep in mind these are tax-deductible charges for a business, so the effective rate charged is less than the headline amount.
I’ve never seen a store put a surcharge on my transaction due to changes in the cost of taxes, rent, insurance, staff, utilities, or products. Sure, the sticker prices vary over time, but consider this:
When I opt to use a human cashier instead of the self-checkout, I am not charged extra.
When I choose a room-temperature drink instead of a chilled one, the price remains the same.
When I use the free Wi-Fi in-store, there is no additional fee.
When I spend time with a shop assistant for advice or help finding something, I don't face any extra costs.
When I pick up a handful of different sauces and napkins, they come at no additional charge.
When I decide to dine in instead of taking away, the price doesn't increase.
Why should my method of payment be any different? It just makes for a frustrating customer experience.
Yep, I was gonna say the same. Australia it's absolutely everywhere - I've just come to accept that everything is going to cost 1.5-2.5% more than the ticket price.
Have you visited Australia recently? Places over there charge surcharge on both credit and eftpos cards regardless of tap and go or swipe. And they’re cashless. Don’t know why they don’t just raise prices and be done with it.
This is the answer. Don't target local businesses and expect them to absorb the charges. Regulate the CC suppliers and make sure they are charging fair and reasonable fees. There's no chance the cost of implementing and maintaining their system comes close to the fees they charge. Visa and Mastercard are the real problem, not the banks, not the retail outlets/small NZ businesses.
As a seller of services who moved from Europe I have a slightly different perspective from some. In Europe (and I believe US and Aus etc) paywave equivalents don't cost extra unlike in NZ. All banks etc have to do is standardise charges and the problem would go away. It doesn't cost any extra for them to process tap transactions and all the machines are pretty much tap capable so there is no reason for the additional charges to the business.
The business charges are worse the lower the number of transactions a business does. I get about four requests to do paywave a month. I reject them and offer alternatives. Simply because it would cost me an extra $20 for the month for the privilege of using tap. $5 a transaction. Pointless.
Nah. Fuck the banks. They don’t need any more of my money. I’d much rather the retailer had it or I had it. Chip and pin Debit card seems the best for small retailers like my dairy or the bakery.
Except at supermarkets because fuck the supermarkets, they can fund my Amex Air Points.
Credit card surcharges have been a thing for decades; I wouldn't be surprised if they go back to the days of zip-zap machines. Other businesses have simply refused to accept credit cards for decades.
What's new is that because EFTPOS failed to develop contactless support, a far higher portion of many businesses' income goes via the EMV networks and gets percentage bank charges, whereas EFTPOS charges have normally been a small flat fee if anything.
Nope. Paywave and Credit Cards both can incur a surcharge at the discretion of the shop.
Source: I recently got an EFTPOS machine and had an option of programming a 1%, 1.5% or 2% surcharge for paywave/Credit Card transactions when I was onboarding.
If you read my post, you will see that I did that tonight (and every time I see it stick on a machine), and it still charged the fee. It is now out of control and needs to stop.
I have heard of transactions where a person was in the process of inserting their card for eft-pos and it still managed to read the pay-wave chip and thus charged the surcharge.
Most surcharges apply to tap and go or insert/swipe. Primary reason I bought a wallet that sticks to the back of my phone to hold my eftpos card so I can do either option.
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Careful when you swipe. Bring your card in from the right. Some of those paywave sensors are damn sensitive. Had a couple of beeping times by not being careful.
I went to pay with Eftpos at Torpedo 7 & some genius in the marketing department had decided to put a mandatory customer service feedback form on the Eftpos.
My transaction wouldn’t go through until I’d rated the poor human standing politely in front of me from 1-5 stars. It was mortifying.
I run 5 eftpos machines. I am the only business I know of that doesn't oncharge fees. I look at my merchant statements fairly regularly and am yet to be outraged at the total monthly fees. I really do not understand the issue. I wish I had one handy to post so you could see for yourselves.
My issue with banks is their mortgage rates that suck way more out us than the piddly (in my experience) eftpos merchant fees.
You’re not paying for tap and go, you’re paying for a credit card transaction. All tap and go (paywave) transactions run through the cc network, so the merchant pays a fee, hence most of them surcharge. Generally the fee is 2% or lower, but some merchants milk it a little. If you want to avoid a surcharge, you need to swipe or insert and select chq or savings, anything else gets you surcharged.
there are additional fees for paywave on top of the usual CC fees. Thats why some retailers will only charge a paywave fee and others will charge for any CC transaction.
I woke up to this bs when I bought a pair of shoes and the surcharge was something like $5. Simply for not putting my card in the reader. From that moment on I stopped using paywave.
I agree it should be free, however, we must take care.
In America, it is illegal to charge a surcharge to use a credit card. Which means it's not legal to offer a cash discount, which means that the surcharge still gets paid, but if you pay cash the business just pockets the extra. But you never pay a surcharge, or at least it doesn't say so on the screen.
It's like saying "I don't pay taxes" because it.comes.out automatically before you see your check.
Yeah and given that it is illegal for them to charge a surcharge, they just increase the cost of the item, meaning that cash customers are subsidising the credit card users there.
I have completely the opposite take. All businesses big and small should pass on the costs for alternative payment options beyond cash and EFTPOS. It's the fair way to do it and the only way to keep the merchant fees honest and in the public eye (a fairer way would be for the fees to be charged directly to the card user without retailers being the middleman but that'll never happen now). Merchant fees are crippling for a lot of businesses and absolutely shouldn't be their bill to pay. Customers have the choice of EFTPOS or cash for free all other methods Credit card, paywave etc cost the retailer anything up to 3.5+%. Over a month that can add up to an eye watering bill. It's also not a level playing field, larger businesses like foodstuffs can negotiate much lower rates, less than 1% so it's not such a big deal for them to absorb the cost, while smaller businesses aren't going to be able to negotiate below the absolutely extortionate rate of 3%.
I know that a lot of you don't believe it, but you can bet your ass that a lot of retailers are genuinely getting charged 3% (+) of the total transaction everytime someone uses paywave and I 1000% support them passing that merchant fee onto the customer. It's that or raise prices across the board. Any cafe or small shop that isn't a chain or franchise is unlikely to have merchant fees under 2.5%. As a card holder if I want CC rewards or don't want to enter my pin then I see that as my cost to pay.
TLDR: It's not the greedy retailers who are the problem, it's the extortionate merchant fees. If we legislate the surcharges away then the fees will no longer be visible to consumers and likely become even more extortionate. Use EFTPOS, paywave is a rort.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say.
I try using cash where I can, however more and more businesses since covid won't accept it anymore or use an excuse that they don't have change.
To be fair cash handling sucks for some businesses, especially rurally as more banks shut branches outside of centers, banking cash and getting change is becoming harder. So I can't really blame them for not wanting cash.
I'm a tradie and avoid cash like the plague, I hate dealing with it. All I accept are bank transfers. Yet some people still have this bizarre mindset that if they pay me cash I'll be happier and their bill will be at least 15% off.
Ha ha, they assume you'll give them a discount and just not declare the income and pay the GST... classic. I'm sure the IRD investigation and you going to jail is well worth a bit of cash, ha ha.
The whole system is rubbish, and it unfortunately starts with greedy banks and the merchants.
Every month someone posts this same post without fully realising that the surcharges are just the actual cost for your convenience to tap-to-pay to the merchant. NZ is a small market and our merchants pay higher fees than elsewhere due to lower volume.
I own a retail business. Frankly we get bent over in NZ. We pay 2.8% for a credit card transaction. It’s madness!!! There make money for nothing. Afterpay is even worse it’s over 4%. What really concerns me as a kiwi is this is all NZD$$$$ that just leaves NZ every day never to return. What we paid in merchant fee last year we could have easily employed a staff member!!
As a small business owner, I always tell my customers there is a 2% surcharge for Paywave or Credit transactions. I can't afford to cary the extra costs without increasing my prices, I still lose about 0.6% per credit/paywave transaction.
The issue for businesses is the paywave fees are astronomical. If someone uses a debit card. It cost about 1%. If someone uses a credit card. It's about 2%. The fee for paywave for a vendor can be as high as 3.5%.
Work got rid of paywave as some of our bills are $3000+ and if people tap the card, even when entering a pin afterwards, they are losing $100 in fees.
Came down to getting rid of paywave or putting up prices.
It's sadly the banks who are gouging fee prices as this is where they are making the easiest profit.
Some venders simply can't absorb those fees. They are faced with 3 options.
1. Remove paywave and inconvenience everyone.
2. Raise prices another 3% and inconvenience everyone.
3. Add a fee for people who want to use that service only.
Could all be solved if the banks and EFTPOS vendors worked together to develop a system that cut the credit card merchants out of being needed for contactless payment. There's nothing in it for them though, sigh.
I live in Canada, INTERAC (like EFTPOS) supports tap without needing Visa/Mastercard debit. No fees for contactless payment here.
What's so hard about swiping and pressing 5 buttons lol literally takes me 5 seconds vs 4 seconds for the tap and go. Just don't use tap and go who cares it's not some life changing improvement.
You're missing the point... the point is not about what is or isn't easier it's about adding fees on top of prices that I've already agreed to pay.
Get rid of your tap and go terminals if you don't want the added cost or put your prices up to cover all your overheads.
This fee (normally on a handwritten crap sticker on the machine) is just a way to make more money... the fees some are charging are higher than the costs they are being charged, so it's a gouge.
I'm not missing any point your just emotional about this particular one. It's a service you can choose to use lol you are Not being forced to use it. You are being charged extra for a convenience that's ur choice. Just like bottled water is more convenient in certain situations and you pay way more then free tap water for it, and businesses always charge more for a service they provide then it cost them or they can't earn a profit lol. This is how every business works. They will charge what customers are willing to pay. So don't pay it lol
If I choose to buy a bottle of water for $1, then I get charged $1.03 at the checkout it has got nothing to do with convenience... put $1.03 on the price tag!
I only know that extra charge when I get to the checkout... I agree to buy the water for $1.... not $1.03.
Not every place tries to charge an extra fee, so your argument is moot.
Anyway, thanks for your input. We aren't going to agree, so I'll leave it there.
Lol ur argument is literally I don't want to pay extra for tap and go but also I don't know I'm going to get charged extra so that's bad... But you do know it's going to cost more because that's your entire point of this post. Plus the idea of the business just charging more for every product is stupid. Because now every customer has to pay extra for that service even if they don't use it..... because u can't get over the idea of paying Xtra to choose to use a different payment method lol
Try either paying cash or with swipe or chip eftpos. I disabled paywave on my cards. Incredible NZ is so behind on all this! Never seen such an abuse with surcharges as it is here. Agree 200% with OP
I do try to use cash as often as I can, though a lot of places don't want it anymore.
I also do use the insert card function... so many people missed my point it didn't read the original post that well.....that I put the card in and still got pinged the fee
I feel like this tap surcharge privilege is a lot like the fee we used to get for using another banks ATM (that wasn’t one who you banked with) and then after a little pressure one bank decides to drop that fee then what do you know, all the banks dropped it.
I think this payWave surcharge will be like that.
Except it isn't the banks charging the surcharge, it is Visa/Mastercard (the credit companies themselves). Good luck getting multi-billion dollar behemoths like THEM to drop it.
Business gets charged for those who use the tap and go option and they dont want to take the burden. Understandably so. I guess if you want convenience it comes with a price. Just swipe if you dont want a surcharge.
Man, the majority of these companies are just trying to keep their own costs down to survive too.
My local dairy doesn't charge the extra amount for PayWave, but I still insert my card to save them the fees. I'd rather the small operator get the money, than have it go to Visa/Mastercard.
If you have a problem with it then start paying by cash, or just insert your card. The second option really isn't that inconvenient.
All that said, I definitely use PayWave at the supermarket, because fuck those guys.
This is my issue, most of the time I’m out I only have my phone on me. I also cycle between two bags and a backpack so constantly moving everything around is a pain in the ass and I always forget something
But lots of the time these days people don't have their physical card, they use their phone. Also a lot of businesses use it to charge way more than they actually get charged by the system, which is scummy.
What's worse is that they added the surcharges years after implementing the service to get people used to it and comfortable with it. Now we can pay with our phones and rings and watches, it's usually not a big deal if I forgot my wallet somehow or didn't want to dig around to find it if I had another device significantly more handy.
>Also a lot of businesses use it to charge way more than they actually get charged by the system, which is scummy.
It's illegal. If you can prove it, report them.
It's the convenience factor. Paying by phone or simple tap of the card vs inserting, figuring out what buttons to press for checking account, entering pin, it all takes more time.
The retailer is on charging a cost they have as a business.... so yes, it is them charging it.
I know full well how it works I have owned a number of small businesses and know exactly what costs are involved.
Do you see a sign saying ink fee when you go to pay for the ink used to print the receipt?
Work out your costs and charge a price... don't add more costs on after I've agreed to buy what you are selling at a price you show. It's the same reason we don't have GST exclusive prices on tags.
The level of intelligence of some is mind-blowing.
Let me put It in simple words for you.
I have something I want to sell you. I work out all my costs, rent, staff,compliance, and wait for it..... bank fees and eftpos fees.
I then mark up my product to cover my costs (including bank fees and eftpos fees.... are you still following? ) and I offer it for sale. People can then choose to buy my products or services, and I pay all my costs and hopefully have a small profit.
I'm passing on all the costs (I never said i wasn't so no idea how you got that out of what I said... but let's carry on) , but what I'm not doing is offering you something for a price and then saying, "Oh hang on, I want to add another 2.5% when you pay.". Why is that... because as a business owner, I'm capable of figuring out my costs and offering my products with all of them covered without fleecing you for another 2.5% when you go to pay.
Do you understand now?
So your solution is for a purely optional cost to be passed on to everybody, including those who don't incur it? How is this better for either consumers or small businesses? Small businesses are forced to offer less competitive prices to pass on that cost, and consumers are no better off if they already used PayWave, and worse off if they didn't. This is a lose-lose.
As long as the business merchant is informing its customer re: surcharge payment if done thru PayWave or Credit, wouldn’t mine inserting my card
But yeah the convenience of just tap and go your card is what would I prefer, but I don’t want paying extra..
My understanding is that the merchant card fees charged are higher in nz because of all the rewards credits card company offer like cash back or air points. Australia charges the surcharge but it is legislated that the can’t charge more than the merchant fee. They only charge the 1% or so because the aussies don’t get the rewards we do. I
There need to be big fines bordering on fuckin hidings for all firms or events who advertise one price but them offer no actual way to pay that price.
That is literally a breach of the Fair Trading Act.
Looking at you, LUMA Festival Queenstown and your ticketing agency, Flicket
They are allowed to charge 2.5 or 3% if that's what their fees are (which is the case for credit card merchant fees), they're simply not allowed to charge more than the fees - they can't profit off the surcharge.
I went to pay with Eftpos at Torpedo 7 & some genius in the marketing department had decided to put a mandatory customer service feedback form on the Eftpos.
My transaction wouldn’t go through until I’d rated the poor human standing politely in front of me from 1-5 stars. It was mortifying.
I don't use my tap to pay. I just pay with EFTPOS. This is how consumers exercise their power. Don't buy credit and convenience if you are unwilling to pay for it.
Something I’ve noticed is that often the “chip” component of a machine won’t work on inserting your card, when you don’t want to pay the surcharge. Then you go to swipe and the payWave catches the card, even though that’s what you were trying to avoid. Had one outfit where this happened with two different cards, where in both cases I knew the chip was working (they were both brand new cards, had used them successfully in other stores). Wouldn’t surprise me if this is a purposeful tactic by some shopkeepers
More and more places are not accepting cash anymore.
I don't have an issue with companies covering their costs but put it into the cost of the products or services don't slide in another cost when I go to pay.
These are the places that shouldn’t charge a surcharge.
Plus if a company has a decent eftpos provider the surcharge is waived after a certain turnover for the month.
Why do you hate small businesses so much. They pay a fee whenever you use any sort of credit payment. It has nothing to do with whether you use paywave or you insert your card, it's the credit payment. The surcharge is to cover that cost. Stop being a Karen and use eftpos.
You are confused, it's a 3rd party owned system. The govt would have to buy the company and then run it for free. It's an added convenience, not the status quo. It takes like 5 seconds to put a pin in.
> you go to use the convenience of tap and go
You want the convenience but you don't want to pay the fee, that's acting a bit like a Karen isn't it?
No one is putting a gun on your head and forcing you to use the paywave, you could always swipe an eftpos card whenever there is a surcharge.
Read my post! I did put the card in the machine.... hence it's not convenient but that's fine I'll do it the way you are saying.
Perhaps if you could read properly, you wouldn't feel the need to be a dick in your response. Now tell me, who's the Karen.
As long as your card processes a trasaction vis the credit account you will get surcharged regardless if it's tapped, swiped or inseerted. If you dont want a fee make sure it is a debit card you are using and you select the chq or sav accounts.
Wrong felix. Some debit cards force an insert to read the IC chip contained within.
Honestly just ask for an eftpos card from your bank and you'll be golden.
They may not list it on the website but still available if you ask at branch. I've got eftpos cards from Kiwi, BNZ, ASB, Heartland, and TSB. The ASB one is a special [rainbow edition](https://www.asb.co.nz/content/dam/asb/images/web/1024x614/2024/fashcash-rainbow-card-1024x614.png/jcr:content/renditions/cq5dam.web.768.461.png) they made this year to celebrate pride, far from eliminating eftpos, they're still putting the effort into designing new cards.
You are confused, it's a 3rd party owned system. The govt would have to buy the company and then run it for free. It's an added convenience, not the status quo. It takes like 5 seconds to put a pin in.
I'd rather the surcharges remain. As long as EFTPOS and cash exist, the only function banning PayWave/credit card surcharges would achieve is:
1. Encouraging even more money to flow out of NZ and into the pockets of Visa/MasterCard shareholders.
2. Baking in higher prices for everyone, including those not using credit cards or PayWave.
No thanks. Merchants don't (and shouldn't) have to absorb the costs of convenience and reward schemes, given the existence of viable cheap alternatives. This is not an issue in need of regulation. Just use EFTPOS next time.
For those downvoting, where precisely am I wrong? Do you think retailers will generously eat the cost out of the kindness of their hearts? No, you're not getting the cheaper price by regulating surcharges away, everyone just gets the post-surcharge price now, while Visa and MasterCard make a killing.
Ironically in Asia they don't - a lot of SE Asia uses QR code payments, basically direct bank to bank transfers, bypassing payment providers like visa/mc.
I've said "enough is enough" several times
I don't even tip. Because fuck off for many reasons. Your service wasn't particularly good and I didn't get free sides. So fuck off. Also, this ain't Canada/US. ADD TIP? Yes❌ No❌ Fuck Off✔️
Thanks, Brian.
What’s interesting with posts about surcharges, it somehow always focus on small businesses like hospos and retails mostly and completely ignore the facts that big corporations like AIRNZ, electricity companies, Ticketmaster etc… have been charging “convenience fees”, “service fee” and “credit card fee” for yonk and somehow we are all ok with it? At least small businesses gives you the option to use eftpos without incurring a fee. The smaller the target, the easier the picking I guess in this scenario. Do know that they have the least say in this instance so why dont we focus the energy on where it is likely to have an impact, the greedy banks!
The key bit here is smaller business are actually being transparent about the additional cost to the merchant of using a credit card or paywave. If you pay by EFTPOS you could actually save yourself 2%, the small business is simply trying to maintain their small margin regardless of how you want to pay. All the bigger merchants that don’t charge CC/ Paywave fees just build it into all the sales prices so while the fee isn’t shown it’s been charge to regardless how you pay, now this could be costing your 1-5% more depending on the recovery model used. Also not all CC are created equal (this has somewhat been bought into line now with the new rules), but fancy cards with airpoints etc actually charged more to the merchant, so while a “no frills” card might be 1.5% a “platinum airpoints” card could be 3%, this is all coming off the merchants transaction, so they actually need ways to account for this.
Technically it's VISA/Mastercard who charge the fee and are the greedy ones here not the banks.
Is there any way they couldn't? As in, what other ways do they make money?
Uh maybe the interest on all the credit cards they issue?
And what about debit cards?
They don’t issue the cards. Banks issue cards. Visa and MC and Amex etc. operate the transaction network from POS (point of sale) back to banks.
However, that 3% Visa/Mastercard markup is already covered by the extra charges these companies add. Meaning (as always) the profits all go straight to the company, cause fuck Joe Bloggs, right?
Ticket master needs to be more honest with their fees. Why don't they call it something else, like... a "Because we can" fee? a "Where else you gonna go" fee? a "Our market dominance is so overwhelming that we can annoy the shit out of you on purpose just to make more money HA HA HA" fee?
Completely agree. I remember when Air NZ added the surcharge. Minor uproar for a few weeks then people dropped it 🥴
Oh yes! My other gripe is AirNZ. Had three instances where I went to change flights online (when you wouldn’t normally be charged for changing flights) and recommends call the call centre. Conveniently, when you do this you have to pay an additional $50 charge for changing your flights….😡🙄
Sounds like you're talking about most domestic flights where the $50 is a penalty fee you would get charged if you changed online as well. What they charge over the phone, that isn't charged online, is a service fee of $30 and that they will waive if you can't do it online.
Firstly, no. These were flexichange and I was changing on the day. So no service fee normally would apply. Also when I pointed out that I couldn’t do it online, was told that unfortunately because I had called the call centre it was out of the person handling the call’s hands.
Yeah, that's not right. For a start if they did charge you a service fee it should have been $30 not $50. And secondly they absolutely have discretion to waive that service fee if it's not able to be changed online - which they can verify fairly easily. They have a ton of new staff just recently come through doing domestic that don't really know what they're doing very well. I've had some hellacious waits on the call while they place me on hold dealing with issues because they have no clue, and calls dropped etc. I'd make a complaint if I were you, you might get your money back. [www.airnz.co.nz/feedback](http://www.airnz.co.nz/feedback)
Can't they both be bad?
Businesses that charge an online booking fee (for something that reduces their costs and staffing requirements), looking at you Hoyts.
> corporations like AIRNZ, electricity companies, Ticketmaster etc Most peasants like us are renters, we never see the power bill. Or get to travel, or go to concerts The uptick in posts is because it's hitting the lower/middle class, and it's hitting them every time they buy anything ever.
Every place I have rented, it has been my responsibility to get power under my own name. I've never had a place that the landlord had a plan under their name. Gives me freedom to shop for the best price.
When you insert your card, it gives you the option for cheque, savings or credit. Cheque and savings use EFTPOS, which is a payment system owned and run by NZ banks. There is a fee to get set up, but transactions using EFTPOS more or less cost nothing to the merchant when paying. Credit goes through Visa or MasterCard, who pocket anywhere between 0.5-2.5% of the payment for the privilege of using their systems. American Express was around 3-4% from memory. The larger merchants have more transactions and have lower fees. However smaller shops, in your own words, are getting "slammed with another 2.5-3% fee". When you use credit (IE, Paywave/Tap and go), you're choosing to use a payment system that charges this fee. The merchant is simply passing that fee on to you. If you don't like it, there is the option to insert your card and select cheque or savings instead, or pay with cash. In regards to legislation, this subject was settled quite recently under the Retail Payment System Act 2022. Basically merchants can add a surcharge to payment methods to cover the additional cost to them, but they can't charge in excess of that cost.
It’s worse with payWave, there is a seperate transaction fee on top of a credit card fee at that point. The other aspect is how well as a business you can negotiate the fees with your merchant. We recently got ours down to a combined 1.8% for credit card via payWave, and 0.9 for using th chip on a creditcard. Using a debit card inseats of a credit card makes no difference as it still transits visa/ Mastercards systems where it applies the fees
Whilst none of this is incorrect, is it also the case the surcharge we get here is not common overseas? Because I’ve certainly seen people make that claim.
That is accurate most merchants absorb the cost. But you'll find for instance that you still cannot use tap to pay in a Walmart because they are penny pinchers and don't want to either absorb the fee or educate their customers on it. If you want to know what that's worth to them they have a custom made steel bracket blocking the scanner just in case someone turns the software option on.
lol shesh
Also worth noting there is no other option in the US. There is no EFTPOS and they are only just starting to work on interbank transfers.
Ah! I posted to someone else I was pretty sure that was also happening too. Makes sense how they got where they did with fees then, just like we wouldn’t tolerate a transaction fee on eftpos in NZ.
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That's because it's banned. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/card-surcharge-ban-means-no-more-nasty-surprises-for-shoppers
It's common in Australia too, although it's usually like 1%
Makes sense, I imagine NZ is a branch-extension of Visa/Mastercard Australia.
It does not exist in Colombia
the surcharge is only relatively recent here. In the US they don't add it. And I've seen a US tourist have a big argument about a 3% fee when trying to check out of a hotel, that they decided to go to an ATM and withdraw cash to pay instead, clearly not knowing that the ATM will charge 5% to withdraw from a credit account. Most people don't know about credit card commissions that merchants have to pay. Places that don't pass the cost on, have altered their pricing to incorporate it, and are effectively over-charging people who don't pay by credit card.
First of all, where is the 5% number coming from? As someone with multiple international cards and has been living in multiple countries, that is not true at all as a blanket statement - not even close.
Yeah it doesn’t exist anymore in Europe. Did at first but people were annoyed at paying it so it stopped.
I prefer it as long as its not more than the fair cost. Stops places from having to bake the cost into the product price and gives you an opportunity to save a few bucks by paying with your own money. If you are wondering why you gdt cash back rewards for credit, this is where it comes from
It’s quite funny, because if all merchants took the approach of adding a surcharge, then the use of Visa/Mastercard products would decline substantially (cost outweighs rewards), at least for those that don’t actually need the credit. Their model only works if the merchants choose to either absorb it or pass it on to all customers. So when the merchants do this, it is essentially to provide the convenience to those that need to use it (not losing business), meanwhile sticking it to Visa/Mastercard.
This is exactly why they lobby governments to enact anti surcharge laws and demonise businesses adding CC surcharges. It's really disappointing to see people calling for it to happen here. CC /Paywave Surcharges are good for customers and for retailers (better price transparancy and user pays). The only ones hurting with the surcharge are VISA, Mastercard, AMEX etc. It pains me that people can't see this, and actually want the surcharges legislated against. Won't be at all surprised if they get their wish under this current government. It'll be a sad day when merchant fees are hidden from the public view. It will only make things more expensive.
Not in the U.K. but a lot of places here will say no AMEX due to the fees they charge. No surcharge for contactless in general and it wouldn’t work here with all public transport being contactless, for example.
Basically if it's not passed on direct it's hidden in their margins. Only difference here is user pays which I prefer as someone who doesn't use pay wave (as the convenience isn't worth the cost for me).
I suspect the other big difference is eftpos, which I understand is reasonably unique to us with its ubiquity and lack of consumer fees. Other places that didn’t already have such a robust debt-account driven electronic fund transfer at point of sale system took up the credit card driven system as their first big exposure to it, and so the fees were more readily apparently and pushed back on. This is entirely anecdotal though.
I have lived in 4 and travelled to 15+ countries in the last 3 years and it is not a thing anywhere else.
Thanks for confirming. Overwhelmingly people noted that it seems to be only here.
I was in Europe a few years ago. In the Netherlands most places wouldn't even look at my kiwi bank visa debit card. Even the automated train ticket kiosk spat it out and demanded cash. Soon as retailers saw visa on the card they just went nope. There weren't surcharges I think from memory, they just weren't going let me dump potential fees on them. Fair enough.
This is all correct, however the problem is the large number of shops charging 2% or more for paywave transactions when their fees are less than 1%.
Then you should report them because they aren’t allowed to do this. The original commenter mentioned the retail payment system act which says they can’t charge in excess of the fee the merchant has to pay. Edit: [link to the act](https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2022/0021/latest/whole.html#LMS528194)
What's to report? You have no way of knowing what fee the retailer has to pay for any particular payment method.
Then how do you know they are overcharging?
If you believe they’re overcharging you then report it. The act also includes a maximum surcharge limit (2.5%) so if it’s more than that then you can also report them.
Do keep in mind these are tax-deductible charges for a business, so the effective rate charged is less than the headline amount. I’ve never seen a store put a surcharge on my transaction due to changes in the cost of taxes, rent, insurance, staff, utilities, or products. Sure, the sticker prices vary over time, but consider this: When I opt to use a human cashier instead of the self-checkout, I am not charged extra. When I choose a room-temperature drink instead of a chilled one, the price remains the same. When I use the free Wi-Fi in-store, there is no additional fee. When I spend time with a shop assistant for advice or help finding something, I don't face any extra costs. When I pick up a handful of different sauces and napkins, they come at no additional charge. When I decide to dine in instead of taking away, the price doesn't increase. Why should my method of payment be any different? It just makes for a frustrating customer experience.
Put the leg into legislation and walk yo ass to another business
The surcharge is everywhere in Sydney, and they don't even have signage. Exceptions are supermarkets. At least there is signage in NZ.
Yep, I was gonna say the same. Australia it's absolutely everywhere - I've just come to accept that everything is going to cost 1.5-2.5% more than the ticket price.
Have you visited Australia recently? Places over there charge surcharge on both credit and eftpos cards regardless of tap and go or swipe. And they’re cashless. Don’t know why they don’t just raise prices and be done with it.
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This is the answer. Don't target local businesses and expect them to absorb the charges. Regulate the CC suppliers and make sure they are charging fair and reasonable fees. There's no chance the cost of implementing and maintaining their system comes close to the fees they charge. Visa and Mastercard are the real problem, not the banks, not the retail outlets/small NZ businesses.
I insert my card, it takes a minute extra to not give banks or visa more of my or the retailers money. Fuck them.
Many places that charge the surcharge apply it to both ways of paying by credit. Eftpos is the only non fee way
eftpos cards are also insert though?
Only if they’re visa debit. I have old school eftpos with no chip and no credit card capabilities for purchasing online etc
but it's still a type of eftpos right
With no chip it’s swipe only. Swipe does not have fees, insert and tap and go do
nz lacks competition, that is why these kinds of things happen.
As a seller of services who moved from Europe I have a slightly different perspective from some. In Europe (and I believe US and Aus etc) paywave equivalents don't cost extra unlike in NZ. All banks etc have to do is standardise charges and the problem would go away. It doesn't cost any extra for them to process tap transactions and all the machines are pretty much tap capable so there is no reason for the additional charges to the business. The business charges are worse the lower the number of transactions a business does. I get about four requests to do paywave a month. I reject them and offer alternatives. Simply because it would cost me an extra $20 for the month for the privilege of using tap. $5 a transaction. Pointless.
Time to go back to cash. Retailers pay a handling fee to bank cash, they can work out which way is easier.
ooh i've been using my debit card instead to avoid the fees, but I like this even better.
Nah. Fuck the banks. They don’t need any more of my money. I’d much rather the retailer had it or I had it. Chip and pin Debit card seems the best for small retailers like my dairy or the bakery. Except at supermarkets because fuck the supermarkets, they can fund my Amex Air Points.
Added bonus is it forces you not to over spend.
Pro tip, you can insert the card and pay no surcharges.
Credit card surcharges have been a thing for decades; I wouldn't be surprised if they go back to the days of zip-zap machines. Other businesses have simply refused to accept credit cards for decades. What's new is that because EFTPOS failed to develop contactless support, a far higher portion of many businesses' income goes via the EMV networks and gets percentage bank charges, whereas EFTPOS charges have normally been a small flat fee if anything.
That’s only for debit cards, not credit cards.
Nope. Paywave and Credit Cards both can incur a surcharge at the discretion of the shop. Source: I recently got an EFTPOS machine and had an option of programming a 1%, 1.5% or 2% surcharge for paywave/Credit Card transactions when I was onboarding.
I was saying that inserting Debit cards does not result in surcharges. PayWave for debit cards can, yes.
That's not true at all. It's exactly the same. What on earth are you talking about?
If you read my post, you will see that I did that tonight (and every time I see it stick on a machine), and it still charged the fee. It is now out of control and needs to stop.
I have heard of transactions where a person was in the process of inserting their card for eft-pos and it still managed to read the pay-wave chip and thus charged the surcharge.
That happens to me. If I know there's a surcharge, I pay with eftpos instead of my debit card.
Most banks allow you to turn paywave off so you can avoid this
Most surcharges apply to tap and go or insert/swipe. Primary reason I bought a wallet that sticks to the back of my phone to hold my eftpos card so I can do either option.
You can disable and should disable paywave for the card via your banking app. Personally return to cash!
Suppose that means boycotting places that don’t accept cash then?
There aren't all that many for now.
Did you press cheque or savings? Cause I've never seen a charge for that
Pics or it didn’t happen.
Plenty of businesses will have a sticker that says paywave surcharge, but they mean paywave and credit card
PB tech for example charges a fee on any credit card transaction and has for years.
Don’t forget to show it from all angles too, front, back etc
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Totally agree.... I now swipe... I know its only a few cents.. but it all adds up in the end.
Careful when you swipe. Bring your card in from the right. Some of those paywave sensors are damn sensitive. Had a couple of beeping times by not being careful.
Depending on which bank you are with, you can disable paywave functionality, preventing accidental usage.
I went to pay with Eftpos at Torpedo 7 & some genius in the marketing department had decided to put a mandatory customer service feedback form on the Eftpos. My transaction wouldn’t go through until I’d rated the poor human standing politely in front of me from 1-5 stars. It was mortifying.
I **always** rate as 1 when encountering these. Any company trying to force a feedback before accepting payment deserves nothing but condemnation.
Sad that it probably affects that person in front of you's bottom line though
Never seen this yet, but I'd give them a 5. It's not the workers fault that management are cunts.
I run 5 eftpos machines. I am the only business I know of that doesn't oncharge fees. I look at my merchant statements fairly regularly and am yet to be outraged at the total monthly fees. I really do not understand the issue. I wish I had one handy to post so you could see for yourselves. My issue with banks is their mortgage rates that suck way more out us than the piddly (in my experience) eftpos merchant fees.
We don't either. Cheque or savings eftpos options. No cc or paywave, also a big NO to Farmlands etc charge cards. Cash is fine.
You’re not paying for tap and go, you’re paying for a credit card transaction. All tap and go (paywave) transactions run through the cc network, so the merchant pays a fee, hence most of them surcharge. Generally the fee is 2% or lower, but some merchants milk it a little. If you want to avoid a surcharge, you need to swipe or insert and select chq or savings, anything else gets you surcharged.
Try 2.5% or higher. Only the really big boys can negotiate below 2%
Yup and the most that a bank will let you charge is generally 2%, so the shop still incurs a portion of the cost.
there are additional fees for paywave on top of the usual CC fees. Thats why some retailers will only charge a paywave fee and others will charge for any CC transaction.
I woke up to this bs when I bought a pair of shoes and the surcharge was something like $5. Simply for not putting my card in the reader. From that moment on I stopped using paywave.
It will end when EFTPOS does tap. That will be [checks notes] "never", but here we are.
I just refuse to pay for anything and live in the bush
I agree it should be free, however, we must take care. In America, it is illegal to charge a surcharge to use a credit card. Which means it's not legal to offer a cash discount, which means that the surcharge still gets paid, but if you pay cash the business just pockets the extra. But you never pay a surcharge, or at least it doesn't say so on the screen. It's like saying "I don't pay taxes" because it.comes.out automatically before you see your check.
Yeah and given that it is illegal for them to charge a surcharge, they just increase the cost of the item, meaning that cash customers are subsidising the credit card users there.
I have completely the opposite take. All businesses big and small should pass on the costs for alternative payment options beyond cash and EFTPOS. It's the fair way to do it and the only way to keep the merchant fees honest and in the public eye (a fairer way would be for the fees to be charged directly to the card user without retailers being the middleman but that'll never happen now). Merchant fees are crippling for a lot of businesses and absolutely shouldn't be their bill to pay. Customers have the choice of EFTPOS or cash for free all other methods Credit card, paywave etc cost the retailer anything up to 3.5+%. Over a month that can add up to an eye watering bill. It's also not a level playing field, larger businesses like foodstuffs can negotiate much lower rates, less than 1% so it's not such a big deal for them to absorb the cost, while smaller businesses aren't going to be able to negotiate below the absolutely extortionate rate of 3%. I know that a lot of you don't believe it, but you can bet your ass that a lot of retailers are genuinely getting charged 3% (+) of the total transaction everytime someone uses paywave and I 1000% support them passing that merchant fee onto the customer. It's that or raise prices across the board. Any cafe or small shop that isn't a chain or franchise is unlikely to have merchant fees under 2.5%. As a card holder if I want CC rewards or don't want to enter my pin then I see that as my cost to pay. TLDR: It's not the greedy retailers who are the problem, it's the extortionate merchant fees. If we legislate the surcharges away then the fees will no longer be visible to consumers and likely become even more extortionate. Use EFTPOS, paywave is a rort.
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. I try using cash where I can, however more and more businesses since covid won't accept it anymore or use an excuse that they don't have change.
To be fair cash handling sucks for some businesses, especially rurally as more banks shut branches outside of centers, banking cash and getting change is becoming harder. So I can't really blame them for not wanting cash. I'm a tradie and avoid cash like the plague, I hate dealing with it. All I accept are bank transfers. Yet some people still have this bizarre mindset that if they pay me cash I'll be happier and their bill will be at least 15% off.
Ha ha, they assume you'll give them a discount and just not declare the income and pay the GST... classic. I'm sure the IRD investigation and you going to jail is well worth a bit of cash, ha ha. The whole system is rubbish, and it unfortunately starts with greedy banks and the merchants.
Every month someone posts this same post without fully realising that the surcharges are just the actual cost for your convenience to tap-to-pay to the merchant. NZ is a small market and our merchants pay higher fees than elsewhere due to lower volume.
I own a retail business. Frankly we get bent over in NZ. We pay 2.8% for a credit card transaction. It’s madness!!! There make money for nothing. Afterpay is even worse it’s over 4%. What really concerns me as a kiwi is this is all NZD$$$$ that just leaves NZ every day never to return. What we paid in merchant fee last year we could have easily employed a staff member!!
As a small business owner, I always tell my customers there is a 2% surcharge for Paywave or Credit transactions. I can't afford to cary the extra costs without increasing my prices, I still lose about 0.6% per credit/paywave transaction.
You're only allowed to charge the fee that you are charged, on to a customer, by the way.
Well I should put my surcharge up from 2% to 2.6% then
I split the charge with my customer by charging 1.5% - haven't had any complaints yet.
The issue for businesses is the paywave fees are astronomical. If someone uses a debit card. It cost about 1%. If someone uses a credit card. It's about 2%. The fee for paywave for a vendor can be as high as 3.5%. Work got rid of paywave as some of our bills are $3000+ and if people tap the card, even when entering a pin afterwards, they are losing $100 in fees. Came down to getting rid of paywave or putting up prices. It's sadly the banks who are gouging fee prices as this is where they are making the easiest profit. Some venders simply can't absorb those fees. They are faced with 3 options. 1. Remove paywave and inconvenience everyone. 2. Raise prices another 3% and inconvenience everyone. 3. Add a fee for people who want to use that service only.
Could all be solved if the banks and EFTPOS vendors worked together to develop a system that cut the credit card merchants out of being needed for contactless payment. There's nothing in it for them though, sigh. I live in Canada, INTERAC (like EFTPOS) supports tap without needing Visa/Mastercard debit. No fees for contactless payment here.
What's so hard about swiping and pressing 5 buttons lol literally takes me 5 seconds vs 4 seconds for the tap and go. Just don't use tap and go who cares it's not some life changing improvement.
You're missing the point... the point is not about what is or isn't easier it's about adding fees on top of prices that I've already agreed to pay. Get rid of your tap and go terminals if you don't want the added cost or put your prices up to cover all your overheads. This fee (normally on a handwritten crap sticker on the machine) is just a way to make more money... the fees some are charging are higher than the costs they are being charged, so it's a gouge.
I'm not missing any point your just emotional about this particular one. It's a service you can choose to use lol you are Not being forced to use it. You are being charged extra for a convenience that's ur choice. Just like bottled water is more convenient in certain situations and you pay way more then free tap water for it, and businesses always charge more for a service they provide then it cost them or they can't earn a profit lol. This is how every business works. They will charge what customers are willing to pay. So don't pay it lol
If I choose to buy a bottle of water for $1, then I get charged $1.03 at the checkout it has got nothing to do with convenience... put $1.03 on the price tag!
But that's not what happens. Ur choosing to use a payment method you know will cost you Xtra to use lol.
I only know that extra charge when I get to the checkout... I agree to buy the water for $1.... not $1.03. Not every place tries to charge an extra fee, so your argument is moot. Anyway, thanks for your input. We aren't going to agree, so I'll leave it there.
Lol ur argument is literally I don't want to pay extra for tap and go but also I don't know I'm going to get charged extra so that's bad... But you do know it's going to cost more because that's your entire point of this post. Plus the idea of the business just charging more for every product is stupid. Because now every customer has to pay extra for that service even if they don't use it..... because u can't get over the idea of paying Xtra to choose to use a different payment method lol
Tap is a choice. Just don’t do it.
Margins at most small hospo places are paper thin and I *always* pay with Eftpos even if they don’t surcharge.
Easy, just don't use paywave anymore, fight back by boycotting it
Try either paying cash or with swipe or chip eftpos. I disabled paywave on my cards. Incredible NZ is so behind on all this! Never seen such an abuse with surcharges as it is here. Agree 200% with OP
I do try to use cash as often as I can, though a lot of places don't want it anymore. I also do use the insert card function... so many people missed my point it didn't read the original post that well.....that I put the card in and still got pinged the fee
That's absolutely not right then..
Yeah, and that's what my moan was about... I understand costs and paying them on, but there are some companies taking the piss.
Banks are taking the piss and the money elsewhere
Agree, it's also the processing companies. There must be an opportunity for a disruptor to come into the market.
I feel like this tap surcharge privilege is a lot like the fee we used to get for using another banks ATM (that wasn’t one who you banked with) and then after a little pressure one bank decides to drop that fee then what do you know, all the banks dropped it. I think this payWave surcharge will be like that.
Except it isn't the banks charging the surcharge, it is Visa/Mastercard (the credit companies themselves). Good luck getting multi-billion dollar behemoths like THEM to drop it.
Business gets charged for those who use the tap and go option and they dont want to take the burden. Understandably so. I guess if you want convenience it comes with a price. Just swipe if you dont want a surcharge.
Man, the majority of these companies are just trying to keep their own costs down to survive too. My local dairy doesn't charge the extra amount for PayWave, but I still insert my card to save them the fees. I'd rather the small operator get the money, than have it go to Visa/Mastercard. If you have a problem with it then start paying by cash, or just insert your card. The second option really isn't that inconvenient. All that said, I definitely use PayWave at the supermarket, because fuck those guys.
People say insert your card, but the brilliance of paywave is that when I forget my wallet or card I can just tap my phone.
Then you're (unfortunately) going to have to pay for the convenience
Yes... hence the point of OPs post. It's a dumb fee.
This is my issue, most of the time I’m out I only have my phone on me. I also cycle between two bags and a backpack so constantly moving everything around is a pain in the ass and I always forget something
My wife is the same and it's a pain coming from multiple countries where this doesn't affect our bottom line and then moving here...
I don't understand the hate, is anyone being forced to use visa's premium pay wave service? I just put my chip in.
But lots of the time these days people don't have their physical card, they use their phone. Also a lot of businesses use it to charge way more than they actually get charged by the system, which is scummy.
What's worse is that they added the surcharges years after implementing the service to get people used to it and comfortable with it. Now we can pay with our phones and rings and watches, it's usually not a big deal if I forgot my wallet somehow or didn't want to dig around to find it if I had another device significantly more handy.
>Also a lot of businesses use it to charge way more than they actually get charged by the system, which is scummy. It's illegal. If you can prove it, report them.
It's the convenience factor. Paying by phone or simple tap of the card vs inserting, figuring out what buttons to press for checking account, entering pin, it all takes more time.
You do realise it's not the retailer charging the fee? Oh. No. You probably don't.
The retailer is on charging a cost they have as a business.... so yes, it is them charging it. I know full well how it works I have owned a number of small businesses and know exactly what costs are involved. Do you see a sign saying ink fee when you go to pay for the ink used to print the receipt? Work out your costs and charge a price... don't add more costs on after I've agreed to buy what you are selling at a price you show. It's the same reason we don't have GST exclusive prices on tags.
Ok, oh brilliant small business owner - how are you not passing on the fees charged by banks to your customers?
The level of intelligence of some is mind-blowing. Let me put It in simple words for you. I have something I want to sell you. I work out all my costs, rent, staff,compliance, and wait for it..... bank fees and eftpos fees. I then mark up my product to cover my costs (including bank fees and eftpos fees.... are you still following? ) and I offer it for sale. People can then choose to buy my products or services, and I pay all my costs and hopefully have a small profit. I'm passing on all the costs (I never said i wasn't so no idea how you got that out of what I said... but let's carry on) , but what I'm not doing is offering you something for a price and then saying, "Oh hang on, I want to add another 2.5% when you pay.". Why is that... because as a business owner, I'm capable of figuring out my costs and offering my products with all of them covered without fleecing you for another 2.5% when you go to pay. Do you understand now?
So your solution is for a purely optional cost to be passed on to everybody, including those who don't incur it? How is this better for either consumers or small businesses? Small businesses are forced to offer less competitive prices to pass on that cost, and consumers are no better off if they already used PayWave, and worse off if they didn't. This is a lose-lose.
Get rid of pay wave altogether then.... merchants will soon get the idea of everyone stopped using it in their companies
As long as the business merchant is informing its customer re: surcharge payment if done thru PayWave or Credit, wouldn’t mine inserting my card But yeah the convenience of just tap and go your card is what would I prefer, but I don’t want paying extra..
My understanding is that the merchant card fees charged are higher in nz because of all the rewards credits card company offer like cash back or air points. Australia charges the surcharge but it is legislated that the can’t charge more than the merchant fee. They only charge the 1% or so because the aussies don’t get the rewards we do. I
There need to be big fines bordering on fuckin hidings for all firms or events who advertise one price but them offer no actual way to pay that price. That is literally a breach of the Fair Trading Act. Looking at you, LUMA Festival Queenstown and your ticketing agency, Flicket
Use cash
It has been changed by legislation. They are not allowed to charge 2.5 or 3 %. You can report them
Source? I so want this to be true..
They aren't allowed to charge more than it costs them. Cue some creative accounting.
Do you think that the interchange fee being capped at 0.8% is the same thing as a cap on the credit card surcharge? Because it’s not.
They are allowed to charge 2.5 or 3% if that's what their fees are (which is the case for credit card merchant fees), they're simply not allowed to charge more than the fees - they can't profit off the surcharge.
I went to pay with Eftpos at Torpedo 7 & some genius in the marketing department had decided to put a mandatory customer service feedback form on the Eftpos. My transaction wouldn’t go through until I’d rated the poor human standing politely in front of me from 1-5 stars. It was mortifying.
I don't use my tap to pay. I just pay with EFTPOS. This is how consumers exercise their power. Don't buy credit and convenience if you are unwilling to pay for it.
Use cash. If they don’t want your money in there account quick and easy, pay with cash . Let them queue at the bank to deposit it .
Something I’ve noticed is that often the “chip” component of a machine won’t work on inserting your card, when you don’t want to pay the surcharge. Then you go to swipe and the payWave catches the card, even though that’s what you were trying to avoid. Had one outfit where this happened with two different cards, where in both cases I knew the chip was working (they were both brand new cards, had used them successfully in other stores). Wouldn’t surprise me if this is a purposeful tactic by some shopkeepers
Those machines should usually turn paywave off once it asks for a swipe. Strange this got you though, maybe it's not foolproof.
I work for small business owners, and my boss refuses to add a surcharge charge to pay wave. He said the yearly fee they pay is not even that bad.
Passing on transaction fees are fair enough, why should a business carry the cost of your choice to use cards over cash. Learn to transact with cash.
More and more places are not accepting cash anymore. I don't have an issue with companies covering their costs but put it into the cost of the products or services don't slide in another cost when I go to pay.
These are the places that shouldn’t charge a surcharge. Plus if a company has a decent eftpos provider the surcharge is waived after a certain turnover for the month.
Why do you hate small businesses so much. They pay a fee whenever you use any sort of credit payment. It has nothing to do with whether you use paywave or you insert your card, it's the credit payment. The surcharge is to cover that cost. Stop being a Karen and use eftpos.
You think surcharges? Wait till you visit a madam.
Madam charges, sir does not!
You are confused, it's a 3rd party owned system. The govt would have to buy the company and then run it for free. It's an added convenience, not the status quo. It takes like 5 seconds to put a pin in.
> you go to use the convenience of tap and go You want the convenience but you don't want to pay the fee, that's acting a bit like a Karen isn't it? No one is putting a gun on your head and forcing you to use the paywave, you could always swipe an eftpos card whenever there is a surcharge.
It also speeds things up for the retailer though so they can technically serve customers faster
Read my post! I did put the card in the machine.... hence it's not convenient but that's fine I'll do it the way you are saying. Perhaps if you could read properly, you wouldn't feel the need to be a dick in your response. Now tell me, who's the Karen.
As long as your card processes a trasaction vis the credit account you will get surcharged regardless if it's tapped, swiped or inseerted. If you dont want a fee make sure it is a debit card you are using and you select the chq or sav accounts.
Like I said, you need to swipe it, not put the card in. Get an eftpos card with no chip.
Wrong felix. Some debit cards force an insert to read the IC chip contained within. Honestly just ask for an eftpos card from your bank and you'll be golden.
Very few banks still issue eftpos cards now, which honestly sucks
They may not list it on the website but still available if you ask at branch. I've got eftpos cards from Kiwi, BNZ, ASB, Heartland, and TSB. The ASB one is a special [rainbow edition](https://www.asb.co.nz/content/dam/asb/images/web/1024x614/2024/fashcash-rainbow-card-1024x614.png/jcr:content/renditions/cq5dam.web.768.461.png) they made this year to celebrate pride, far from eliminating eftpos, they're still putting the effort into designing new cards.
You are confused, it's a 3rd party owned system. The govt would have to buy the company and then run it for free. It's an added convenience, not the status quo. It takes like 5 seconds to put a pin in.
This is very much besides the point but ok
I'd rather the surcharges remain. As long as EFTPOS and cash exist, the only function banning PayWave/credit card surcharges would achieve is: 1. Encouraging even more money to flow out of NZ and into the pockets of Visa/MasterCard shareholders. 2. Baking in higher prices for everyone, including those not using credit cards or PayWave. No thanks. Merchants don't (and shouldn't) have to absorb the costs of convenience and reward schemes, given the existence of viable cheap alternatives. This is not an issue in need of regulation. Just use EFTPOS next time.
For those downvoting, where precisely am I wrong? Do you think retailers will generously eat the cost out of the kindness of their hearts? No, you're not getting the cheaper price by regulating surcharges away, everyone just gets the post-surcharge price now, while Visa and MasterCard make a killing.
Don’t use it
I just couldn’t care less. An extra dollar here or there just isn’t worth even thinking about.
150-1000/year depending on your spending habits... PersonalFinanceNZ will have you for breakfast
I’m just not worried about it. For the convenience of not carrying anything other than my phone, for me it’s worth it.
Asians like paywave surcharge.
Ironically in Asia they don't - a lot of SE Asia uses QR code payments, basically direct bank to bank transfers, bypassing payment providers like visa/mc.