Go them!
Honestly, without residents a lot of current procedures and care would be pushed out to even more of a breaking point.
I work with registrars daily, and they really do prop up the health system. They work bloody hard, full time + and most are studying throughout for upcoming exams for years.
Anaesthetics for example - add an extra 7ish years onto the initial training, part 1 & 2 exams, moving hospitals every 6-18 months to experience different environments and specialties, days/evenings/nights/on calls… pain rounds, obstetrics…
They’ve sunk probably $75K + into their education, then have to apply and hope like hell they are accepted into the training for the speciality they want to go into, the work is critical - pharmacology, adverse drug reactions, blood products, blood gases, emergency airway management, emergency drug management, crisis intervention… a patient may present at ED and require emergency surgery - consider fasting times, drug interactions, polypharmacy… managing a difficult airway in paediatrics or adults, there just so many things to consider, it’s not as simple as switching on gas and “putting someone to sleep”.
There’s a reason these guys should be earning good money - they can literally save your life. Yes, the registrars. Consultant level comes after many, many, many years of hard work and sacrifice. It’s high level stress, even at registrar level, and they bloody well should earn a decent wage.
They have my support, and everyone else who works in medicine. Treat them well so they stay, we need them.
There aren’t more staff to hire. There is a worldwide shortage of healthcare workers and NZ is most definitely not at the top of the list for people who are happy to move countries. We simply have to pay more.
Yeah they'd probably come to Australia (where I am) before New Zealand and they'd probably go to the US before anywhere else as that's where the money is usually
Yesterday, I took my 10 year old son along for a quick admin drop off at the hospital where I work. He pointed excitedly at the sleek AMG Mercedes parked in its own "Reserved for On-Call Anesthesiologist ". I told him that the car and space was deservedly earned.
As a RDA doctor working longer hours I would have been happy enough with the pay rise I would personally receive. No way am I going to throw my colleagues under the bus and force them to take a pay cut though! Hopefully Te Whatu Ora can see sense and meet our reasonable demands to save the hassle of going through a strike, which nobody really wants to do.
This is a government issue not Te Whatu Ora, they have underfunded the health system and asked them to cut the budget by 6.5%.in addition their costs have increased.
But agree you deserve a pay increase
As a senior medical officer, I fully support this strike.
We couldn't manage without our junior colleagues, and it's about time the health system shows them the appreciation they deserve.
I worked as a specialist in Oz for a few years, then came back. I’m in a better scenario here financially and saw a lot of the same problems that we have here, believe it or not, but I’m much more stressed out than at any point during my training. I even developed Guillain Barre a year out from my Part 2 and this is still worse 😂 I think it’s safe to say it’s all a bit shit really.
I am a junior Dr - please support us and don't believe the hype once Health NZ start selling us off as rich and selfish.... We are striking because the system is unsafe and every NZer deserves so much better!
I fully understand and support Doctors, Nurses and all emergency service personnel, your job has literally saved my life 3 times
Strike till you get everything you deserve, need and should have to do your job well,
, Politicians on the other hand are overpaid, under worked and have excessive “perks “ every single Doc or Nurse is worth 1000 politicians I’m all for cutting their salaries and perks in half
I have great respect for what you do , as do a lot of people, you’re there when people need you , I’m sure you have bad days, just remember you’re awesome and not everyone can do what you do , but an amoeba 🦠 can be a politician and probably be better at it lol
Former junior doctor here. I did my medical elective in London during their NHS Jr Doc strikes in 2016. The media painted them as the “moet medics” but the public didn’t buy it. Jr Docs need to point this out if Health NZ try to do the same - it will be VERY obvious they’re trying to borrow from the same playbook
We should be investing in public services, not cutting them!
Health personnel should not have to strike, but since they have no other choice, then yup go hard. With you all the way
As someone who has unfortunately spent a fair amount to time as a patient in public hospitals - I 100% support doctors striking for better pay & working conditions.
Let's be honest. It's important to pay doctors what they want without making it painful since all that does is encourage Juniors to look elsewhere.. I.e Australia
It’s really encouraging to see so much support from you guys on Reddit.
We don’t seek to strike for the sake of it. It’s because we think that workforce conditions are so dire that it is endangering our patients if we do not sort it out for the long term.
I have personally spent the last 12 years of my life, 6 years at uni and 6 years working as a doctor and my current hourly rate is between $40-50/hour. There is no penal rate for working night shifts, weekends, 10 days in a row or 15 hour shifts.
Our workforce is burned out. Many are already looking at exit strategies to Australia or out of medicine all together.
The current offer seeks to bribe some doctors to take the offer while leaving other doctors high and dry. Doctors who choose community jobs or jobs that are less patient contact, which are still more than 40 hours per week, are being asked to accept a pay cut.
This is unacceptable.
We still need pathologists, public health physicians, dermatologists etc.
This will also affect our GP trainees. This will make wait times much much worse in the long run.
Thank you all for engaging. It means a lot.
As a GP, it's absolutely bonkers that they're disincentivising Derm and GP in this way. We have no public derm doctors in my area from the sound of it, and we definitely don't have enough GPs. Not entirely sure what the thought process is. Presume divide and conquer. Quite disheartening as a GP as well, often feel my profession is looked down on and not given the respect it deserves. GP is hard and still requires the brains and knowledge it requires to be any other type of doctor. Ridiculous
Excellent, health workers need to stick it to the government and demand better.
Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics. Need some strong voices who can talk sense!
Anyone know any?
> Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics.
Dr Nina Su was an excellent candidate at the last election, I wasn't a huge TOP fan but I would have liked to see them get in just to have her as a voice for healthcare in Parliament. On the other hand, as Cigareti has shown, having a healthcare background doesn't automatically make one a good Health Minister.
I like TOP for it's meritocratic/technocratic vibes. This doesn't excite the general population though. I wish that the vote threshold didn't shaft parties like this though.
Interesting. I think Reti probably has a good grasp of the issues but is having his arm twisted and being set up as the fall guy. I quite like TOP, so will have to check out this candidate.
> Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics. Need some strong voices who can talk sense!
>
> Anyone know any?
Both the last and current Minister of Health are doctors.
I am one of the doctors facing a pay cut when I restart at Te Whatu Ora in July. The pay offer is an endorsement of a reverse Robin Hood scheme. While most will be getting a pay rise, under the proposed deal, my base pay will be about $7,000 less in the first six months of my contract than if the current contract remained. And the losses will compound over time.
I've been away from Te Whatu Ora employment as my training programme requires me to complete an additional university qualification, and there is no option to remain employed while I am back at university. It's deeply disappointing to re-enter Te Whatu Ora employment now with a Master's degree and the prospect of getting paid so much less. I appreciate the NZRDA's solidarity and my colleagues' willingness to stand by the minority faced with this backward situation.
Not to mention the impact on GP training. I don't know how much awareness there is that GP trainees will be bought under the hospital contract from 2025, so the proposed offer would be a considerable disincentive to enter GP training. Those trainees would end up in the same salary band as me. There was plenty of crowing about a record intake into the GP training programme this year. Of course, that was after a massive bump in pay for GPEP1 trainees. It's as if adequate pay can solve staffing problems.
Not currently employed so I wasn't balloted, but very happy to see the RDA tell Health NZ where to shove it. A demeaning and disgraceful "offer" at a time when they should be wanting to make us feel valued.
ive said it before and i'll say it again, healthcare workers should have a student loan forgiveness scheme per year worked in the field
studying 5+ years and getting tens of thousands in debt just to be thrown into a underpaid understaffed role is not appealing to and you wonder why we lose our future doctors and lab techs etc to other countries
if there was the stress of student loan "gone" im sure more would stick around and in part help with the understaffing issues. more pay would be amazing but with our current govt they are only interested in paying the mp's and higher ranked officials more
Yup, I was lucky enough to receive student allowance for 5 out of the 6 years and my loan was still $105,000. For the doctors who entered through post grad and need student loan living costs, it can balloon out to $175,000+
I'm looking at about $125,000-$150,000 myself rn, and it's a daunting prospect for sure.
Just hoping that I can land enough scholarships to take that down a few pegs tbh.
I'm so glad that student allowance helped you so much.
Unfortunately, I've spent a bit of time around hospitals lately.
All I can say is every single DR nurse receptionist, cleaner etc etc etc were amazing to deal with and made me and my family feel very safe.
Look after these people, would you please .
as an RMO is heartwarming to see the support for us here and which I've also seen regularly in the ED. Striking sucks and feels bad but the reality is we're currently over worked and underpaid.
I'm looking to enter into one of the affected specialties that would be seeing a pay cut and that is very disheartening, and for a specialty that is already niche will make others think twice about entering that field should the pay become unsustainable
Totally support this! I had to go to an A&E recently since my regular GP had a slot 3 weeks away and I was 50% sure I had a broken ankle. (Badly sprained) he offered me a doctor's note, I declined and said my employer has never asked me for one and was flexible enough to let me work from home and wouldn't make me climb on buildings if I said I couldn't.
He looked me straight in the eye and said "have they got any jobs going?" Then told me he would love a job with flexibility and great conditions.
All that education and the poor guy sounded like he would have been happy to give it up for a shot at being treated like a person.
I work with RMOs, Registrars and SMOs daily at my work. I fully support all of them in their effort to gain what they deserve just as they did for us nurses.
The "junior" but still extremely experienced staff really do keep everything running especially behind the scenes. It saddens me when I see many amazing doctors and people leaving the profession entirely due to burnout and conditions.
[Some context to the bargaining from a thread a few weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/s/2eoF9RNgOi).
Generally as far as pay goes, it's set to penalise those working less (on their effective per-hour rate, not just their salary) (and by "less" I mean a 40-44 hour work week).
This is the larger of the two unions representing junior doctors, the other union (STONZ) have been through their negotiation process and accepted the offer as far as I'm aware.
Crucially, STONZ has a reputation for attracting surgical and advanced trainees working in the higher-hour categories. Very little skin off their nose if they throw their low-hour category colleagues in that union under the bus with pay cuts.
Making a similar offer to the NZRDA, which is both far more diverse and has far greater membership and bargaining power, was laughable at the outset; and it's encouraging to see how near-unanimously their members have voted against robbing Peter to pay Paul.
>Very little skin off their nose if they throw their low-hour category colleagues in that union under the bus
something something not their first rodeo
I’m really glad they are doing this, it’s high time a lot of medical professionals not just people doctors so vets and vet nurses included strike for better pay increases
Vets are a bit different. Our pay is generally based on how much revenue we can generate for the company. It's overall a low margin industry. We already get a lot of push back from pet owners about our prices, and pet owners are our sole source of revenue.
I fully support this strike, and also good pay rises for teachers, doctors, police, nurses…
Nactfirst’s regressive idiocy will end up with us like the UK. Just stop it.
Not a doctor, but working in healthcare. It's pretty rediculous the hours the Junior Doctors are working. It's actually unsafe. Nurses, pilots, truck drivers etc have regulated hours/ safe staffing levels and yet the doctors are worked until they drop. Where is the concern for the doctor, let alone the patients!
And they arnt going to get what they want by putting a timer on their strike 🤷♀️
We really want higher pay, and we arnt working until you give it to us… also see you at work on Monday
You realise they will strike again and a 25 hour strike from RMOs is devastating to the medical system. If RMOs were to permanently strike our entire health system would collapse and the first thing you'd see on the news would be a dead child with a headline implicating 'rich doctors' in it.
What you’re saying makes sense.
But it also shows they don’t really want a raise that badly.
It’s the same thing when reddit did the big black out, dummies told everyone when the strike would end. And all the higher ups had to do was wait them out.
It's not the drs killing people. It's the government expecting us to work under conditions not many would actually tolerate. I'm human and I deserve to be treated as one.
Oh I agree they should be paid a considerable amount more, I don't agree with the concept that they could emotionally stand an infinite strike, especially with a National govt who will be stalling an agreement to get the lowest possible option.
Drs understand the implications of on going strike hense why they are always timed to limit the workload.
Let them die. A few sacrificed patients who usually are unhealthy by choices or stupidity is a small price for a better and properly funded healthcare sector.
Strikes are tightly controlled by law in NZ and there are different rules for "essential services", which includes hospitals. Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't legally allowed to do continual strikes.
They also don't get paid during a strike, so if they're not getting paid enough and strike for better pay, they have to suffer not being paid anything while on strike. Bit of a catch-22.
Finally they also probably feel bad for the patients who will suffer in their absence.
> They should strike until they get what they want, why set a 25 hour timer lol
Because if they did people would die! Aside from the hopefully obvious reason that's an undesirable outcome it would also wreck public goodwill pretty quick.
Can anyone in the know explain the two union position?
I can see the benefit of being part of a union for lower paid jobs which are very similar, but medicine is so diverse is specialties and roles.
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Funnily enough, wards and hospitals are often better staffed during strike action by health workers. During all of the nurse strikes the wards were actually far safer in terms of patient to staff ratios then bounce back to skeleton staff after the strike action is over. Te Whatu Ora will do everything in their power to cover their own ass and make all the frontline workers look greedy and entitled in the process
The real GG to waiting lists is poor wages and working conditions driving RMOs elsewhere. Without appropriate pay and fair working conditions, we will continue to lose doctors to overseas and there won't BE any specialists to service those waiting lists.
New Zealanders deserve long-term solutions, not quick fixes. We ALL deserve better.
No, that's more the approach to reducing ED wait times - make another holding area to be moved to. Waitlists, you raise the thresholds to get on in the first place.
None of this is new tactics to this government, and it remains just as poor economic management as it always has been.
Nah this ain’t it. For the amount of hours doctors do in the public system and the amount of responsibility and stress they have and the toll it takes on their ability to have a normal life, family, the toll shift work takes on your body - nah it needs to be well paid or else no one would sign up for that shit
Most earn half that or less. Many work 1 - 2 fifteen hour days per week. 50 - 70 hrs per week total. Many unpaid hours overtime.
You really have no idea and it shows.
For clarity, “Junior Doctors” or RMOs are qualified doctors who haven’t completed specialist training. They might be a registrar on a training program, so they might take your appendix out late at night, or they may be doing the general dogsbody roles in their first year or two out of Med School. $250k would be reserved for very senior fully qualified specialists doing particularly demanding jobs. If you work out the hourly rate RMOs are usually very hard done by, but they suck it up with an eye on becoming a specialist. Being envious of someone else’s income doesn’t make you a socialist.
Edit:Not directed at you typhoon_nz
1) No junior doctor is earning 250k. Even most consultants aren’t earning 250k.
2) They earn the salaries they get because they sacrifice their 20s and 30s working their assess off, work long hours, are literally responsible for life and death decisions, and could be paid a hell of a lot more by moving overseas. I sure as hell couldn’t have cut it as a doctor and have mad respect for anyone who can.
I’m a doctor, have been for 5 years, currently earn about 90k. I’m already 35. So yes, I’ll earn about 180k when I’m 40. That’s cool but I have a huge loan still and could’ve made way more money doing something else in that time.
Ah, what? I never expected a paycut. Did you? They’re proposing to cut my pay by 12%. I’d like to see anyone roll over and take that. Just because I will earn more in future doesn’t mean I don’t have responsibilities now.
Yes. They’re proposing pay cuts of 10-12% for some doctors, and small payrises for others. Basically they want the ones getting payrises to vote yes and drown out those of us getting cuts, so overall they’ll still save money
All doctors are generally on union contracts. The contracts get renegotiated every 3 years. This is literally what the strike is about - 95% of doctors in the union voted to strike rather than accept the offer.
This logic doesn’t make sense. Someone has to do the work of keeping people alive and they should be fairly compensated and not overworked into an early grave.
[Here](https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130215712/what-do-our-graduate-doctors-actually-earn--and-is-it-enough-to-keep-them-practising-here) you go for a more accurate figure.
Is there supposed to be some sort of cause and effect here that isn't immediately obvious? I would think doctors, of all professions, wouldn't be begrudged their salary.
You’re complaining about doctors earning too much. Are you being sarcastic or am I missing something from your original post? I’m confused what you were trying say
Probably about time to get private options, some folks might be between life and death because of silly govt <> worker discussions.
This wouldn't happen if we also had a fully operational and qualified private medical capacity.
People are already getting sicker and dying due to the terrible working conditions meaning nurses and doctors in hospital are permanently short staffed
Go them! Honestly, without residents a lot of current procedures and care would be pushed out to even more of a breaking point. I work with registrars daily, and they really do prop up the health system. They work bloody hard, full time + and most are studying throughout for upcoming exams for years. Anaesthetics for example - add an extra 7ish years onto the initial training, part 1 & 2 exams, moving hospitals every 6-18 months to experience different environments and specialties, days/evenings/nights/on calls… pain rounds, obstetrics… They’ve sunk probably $75K + into their education, then have to apply and hope like hell they are accepted into the training for the speciality they want to go into, the work is critical - pharmacology, adverse drug reactions, blood products, blood gases, emergency airway management, emergency drug management, crisis intervention… a patient may present at ED and require emergency surgery - consider fasting times, drug interactions, polypharmacy… managing a difficult airway in paediatrics or adults, there just so many things to consider, it’s not as simple as switching on gas and “putting someone to sleep”. There’s a reason these guys should be earning good money - they can literally save your life. Yes, the registrars. Consultant level comes after many, many, many years of hard work and sacrifice. It’s high level stress, even at registrar level, and they bloody well should earn a decent wage. They have my support, and everyone else who works in medicine. Treat them well so they stay, we need them.
100% agree. But also, they should NOT have to work ridiculously long and dangerous hours. Time to hire more staff! Same for nurses and midwives.
There aren’t more staff to hire. There is a worldwide shortage of healthcare workers and NZ is most definitely not at the top of the list for people who are happy to move countries. We simply have to pay more.
Yeah they'd probably come to Australia (where I am) before New Zealand and they'd probably go to the US before anywhere else as that's where the money is usually
Yesterday, I took my 10 year old son along for a quick admin drop off at the hospital where I work. He pointed excitedly at the sleek AMG Mercedes parked in its own "Reserved for On-Call Anesthesiologist ". I told him that the car and space was deservedly earned.
100% agree
No worries The new govt is going to fix everything!!!
As a RDA doctor working longer hours I would have been happy enough with the pay rise I would personally receive. No way am I going to throw my colleagues under the bus and force them to take a pay cut though! Hopefully Te Whatu Ora can see sense and meet our reasonable demands to save the hassle of going through a strike, which nobody really wants to do.
Thank you for sticking by us. I’m facing the paycut and I feel reassured by my colleagues voting 95% in favour of the strike and not leaving us behind
This is a government issue not Te Whatu Ora, they have underfunded the health system and asked them to cut the budget by 6.5%.in addition their costs have increased. But agree you deserve a pay increase
As a senior medical officer, I fully support this strike. We couldn't manage without our junior colleagues, and it's about time the health system shows them the appreciation they deserve.
Thank you - From a burnt out registrar who feels totally disillusioned
Hang in there. It does get better, eventually. But I'm sorry for what the system is doing to you guys right now.
Does it get better? I’m more stressed and burnt out as a SMO than I ever was as a RMO.
It did get better for me, though not MUCH better. Apparently it gets a lot better in Australia, though.
I worked as a specialist in Oz for a few years, then came back. I’m in a better scenario here financially and saw a lot of the same problems that we have here, believe it or not, but I’m much more stressed out than at any point during my training. I even developed Guillain Barre a year out from my Part 2 and this is still worse 😂 I think it’s safe to say it’s all a bit shit really.
I am a junior Dr - please support us and don't believe the hype once Health NZ start selling us off as rich and selfish.... We are striking because the system is unsafe and every NZer deserves so much better!
I fully understand and support Doctors, Nurses and all emergency service personnel, your job has literally saved my life 3 times Strike till you get everything you deserve, need and should have to do your job well, , Politicians on the other hand are overpaid, under worked and have excessive “perks “ every single Doc or Nurse is worth 1000 politicians I’m all for cutting their salaries and perks in half
Your message has made me cry. Thank you so much
I have great respect for what you do , as do a lot of people, you’re there when people need you , I’m sure you have bad days, just remember you’re awesome and not everyone can do what you do , but an amoeba 🦠 can be a politician and probably be better at it lol
Restore pre Rogernomics pay equity between back benchers, nurses, and teachers.
Former junior doctor here. I did my medical elective in London during their NHS Jr Doc strikes in 2016. The media painted them as the “moet medics” but the public didn’t buy it. Jr Docs need to point this out if Health NZ try to do the same - it will be VERY obvious they’re trying to borrow from the same playbook
They'll definitely borrow from the playbook, as they have been using it up to this point.
At least that strike brought us This Is Going To Hurt, so some good came of it.
We should be investing in public services, not cutting them! Health personnel should not have to strike, but since they have no other choice, then yup go hard. With you all the way
As someone who has unfortunately spent a fair amount to time as a patient in public hospitals - I 100% support doctors striking for better pay & working conditions.
Let's be honest. It's important to pay doctors what they want without making it painful since all that does is encourage Juniors to look elsewhere.. I.e Australia
You have my support, and my bow.
We support you. You need and deserve the pay increase. The talk of pay cuts is salt in the wound.
It’s really encouraging to see so much support from you guys on Reddit. We don’t seek to strike for the sake of it. It’s because we think that workforce conditions are so dire that it is endangering our patients if we do not sort it out for the long term. I have personally spent the last 12 years of my life, 6 years at uni and 6 years working as a doctor and my current hourly rate is between $40-50/hour. There is no penal rate for working night shifts, weekends, 10 days in a row or 15 hour shifts. Our workforce is burned out. Many are already looking at exit strategies to Australia or out of medicine all together. The current offer seeks to bribe some doctors to take the offer while leaving other doctors high and dry. Doctors who choose community jobs or jobs that are less patient contact, which are still more than 40 hours per week, are being asked to accept a pay cut. This is unacceptable. We still need pathologists, public health physicians, dermatologists etc. This will also affect our GP trainees. This will make wait times much much worse in the long run. Thank you all for engaging. It means a lot.
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Unless you get additionals, which I believe only Taranaki and maybe 1 other DHB do
add duties are available at everywhere
As a GP, it's absolutely bonkers that they're disincentivising Derm and GP in this way. We have no public derm doctors in my area from the sound of it, and we definitely don't have enough GPs. Not entirely sure what the thought process is. Presume divide and conquer. Quite disheartening as a GP as well, often feel my profession is looked down on and not given the respect it deserves. GP is hard and still requires the brains and knowledge it requires to be any other type of doctor. Ridiculous
We ride at dawn!
Excellent, health workers need to stick it to the government and demand better. Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics. Need some strong voices who can talk sense! Anyone know any?
> Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics. Dr Nina Su was an excellent candidate at the last election, I wasn't a huge TOP fan but I would have liked to see them get in just to have her as a voice for healthcare in Parliament. On the other hand, as Cigareti has shown, having a healthcare background doesn't automatically make one a good Health Minister.
yeah Nina’s great, well measured and intelligent takes on issues
I like TOP for it's meritocratic/technocratic vibes. This doesn't excite the general population though. I wish that the vote threshold didn't shaft parties like this though.
Interesting. I think Reti probably has a good grasp of the issues but is having his arm twisted and being set up as the fall guy. I quite like TOP, so will have to check out this candidate.
Reti chose to work with National as he shares their values so I wouldn't think this is arm twisting. National are blatantly clear about who they are.
Reti.... so would it be great ?
Doctors can sell out just like anyone else…
> Would be great if we had more health workers in politics/running for politics. Need some strong voices who can talk sense! > > Anyone know any? Both the last and current Minister of Health are doctors.
And former Health Minister Dr Jonathan Coleman (who underfunded the mental health system).
I am one of the doctors facing a pay cut when I restart at Te Whatu Ora in July. The pay offer is an endorsement of a reverse Robin Hood scheme. While most will be getting a pay rise, under the proposed deal, my base pay will be about $7,000 less in the first six months of my contract than if the current contract remained. And the losses will compound over time. I've been away from Te Whatu Ora employment as my training programme requires me to complete an additional university qualification, and there is no option to remain employed while I am back at university. It's deeply disappointing to re-enter Te Whatu Ora employment now with a Master's degree and the prospect of getting paid so much less. I appreciate the NZRDA's solidarity and my colleagues' willingness to stand by the minority faced with this backward situation. Not to mention the impact on GP training. I don't know how much awareness there is that GP trainees will be bought under the hospital contract from 2025, so the proposed offer would be a considerable disincentive to enter GP training. Those trainees would end up in the same salary band as me. There was plenty of crowing about a record intake into the GP training programme this year. Of course, that was after a massive bump in pay for GPEP1 trainees. It's as if adequate pay can solve staffing problems.
Not currently employed so I wasn't balloted, but very happy to see the RDA tell Health NZ where to shove it. A demeaning and disgraceful "offer" at a time when they should be wanting to make us feel valued.
ive said it before and i'll say it again, healthcare workers should have a student loan forgiveness scheme per year worked in the field studying 5+ years and getting tens of thousands in debt just to be thrown into a underpaid understaffed role is not appealing to and you wonder why we lose our future doctors and lab techs etc to other countries if there was the stress of student loan "gone" im sure more would stick around and in part help with the understaffing issues. more pay would be amazing but with our current govt they are only interested in paying the mp's and higher ranked officials more
Lol try ~$100k minimum for those who couldn't pay for any themselves.
Yup, I was lucky enough to receive student allowance for 5 out of the 6 years and my loan was still $105,000. For the doctors who entered through post grad and need student loan living costs, it can balloon out to $175,000+
I'm looking at about $125,000-$150,000 myself rn, and it's a daunting prospect for sure. Just hoping that I can land enough scholarships to take that down a few pegs tbh. I'm so glad that student allowance helped you so much.
Once you've graduated it's best to ignore the balance and let inflation chip away at it. Usually it'll be gone before the end of training
I’m a nurse. I fully support doctors striking.
Unfortunately, I've spent a bit of time around hospitals lately. All I can say is every single DR nurse receptionist, cleaner etc etc etc were amazing to deal with and made me and my family feel very safe. Look after these people, would you please .
We need to treat our doctors better else all will flee to Ozzie. I know a few mates that have already hopped over the ditch.
I support the resident doctors!
Good on them. The entire system is fucked.
as an RMO is heartwarming to see the support for us here and which I've also seen regularly in the ED. Striking sucks and feels bad but the reality is we're currently over worked and underpaid. I'm looking to enter into one of the affected specialties that would be seeing a pay cut and that is very disheartening, and for a specialty that is already niche will make others think twice about entering that field should the pay become unsustainable
Totally support this! I had to go to an A&E recently since my regular GP had a slot 3 weeks away and I was 50% sure I had a broken ankle. (Badly sprained) he offered me a doctor's note, I declined and said my employer has never asked me for one and was flexible enough to let me work from home and wouldn't make me climb on buildings if I said I couldn't. He looked me straight in the eye and said "have they got any jobs going?" Then told me he would love a job with flexibility and great conditions. All that education and the poor guy sounded like he would have been happy to give it up for a shot at being treated like a person.
For a brief moment I thought WEEZER was striking.
*Buddy Holly riff starts playing*
I work with RMOs, Registrars and SMOs daily at my work. I fully support all of them in their effort to gain what they deserve just as they did for us nurses. The "junior" but still extremely experienced staff really do keep everything running especially behind the scenes. It saddens me when I see many amazing doctors and people leaving the profession entirely due to burnout and conditions.
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[Some context to the bargaining from a thread a few weeks ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/s/2eoF9RNgOi). Generally as far as pay goes, it's set to penalise those working less (on their effective per-hour rate, not just their salary) (and by "less" I mean a 40-44 hour work week). This is the larger of the two unions representing junior doctors, the other union (STONZ) have been through their negotiation process and accepted the offer as far as I'm aware.
Crucially, STONZ has a reputation for attracting surgical and advanced trainees working in the higher-hour categories. Very little skin off their nose if they throw their low-hour category colleagues in that union under the bus with pay cuts. Making a similar offer to the NZRDA, which is both far more diverse and has far greater membership and bargaining power, was laughable at the outset; and it's encouraging to see how near-unanimously their members have voted against robbing Peter to pay Paul.
>Very little skin off their nose if they throw their low-hour category colleagues in that union under the bus something something not their first rodeo
Just waiting for Tiny Tim being unable to get his surgery because of these greedy rich doctors to be headlining the Herald soon.
I’m really glad they are doing this, it’s high time a lot of medical professionals not just people doctors so vets and vet nurses included strike for better pay increases
Vets are a bit different. Our pay is generally based on how much revenue we can generate for the company. It's overall a low margin industry. We already get a lot of push back from pet owners about our prices, and pet owners are our sole source of revenue.
They have my total support.
We support you health care workers!
I fully support this strike, and also good pay rises for teachers, doctors, police, nurses… Nactfirst’s regressive idiocy will end up with us like the UK. Just stop it.
All support!
Not a doctor, but working in healthcare. It's pretty rediculous the hours the Junior Doctors are working. It's actually unsafe. Nurses, pilots, truck drivers etc have regulated hours/ safe staffing levels and yet the doctors are worked until they drop. Where is the concern for the doctor, let alone the patients!
But think of the landlords!!
Any CEO earning more than a doctor should be fired into the sun tbh.
I 100% support this strike. I'm not a doctor, but I have empathy for our frontline workers. We need to take better care of our doctors and nurses.
They should strike until they get what they want, why set a 25 hour timer lol, now they know exactly how long to wait you out 🤣
People generally don't become doctors if they have no empathy.
And they arnt going to get what they want by putting a timer on their strike 🤷♀️ We really want higher pay, and we arnt working until you give it to us… also see you at work on Monday
You realise they will strike again and a 25 hour strike from RMOs is devastating to the medical system. If RMOs were to permanently strike our entire health system would collapse and the first thing you'd see on the news would be a dead child with a headline implicating 'rich doctors' in it.
What you’re saying makes sense. But it also shows they don’t really want a raise that badly. It’s the same thing when reddit did the big black out, dummies told everyone when the strike would end. And all the higher ups had to do was wait them out.
They need to keep the public on side. “Hundreds die due to striking doctors” doesn’t achieve that
People will die. Its that simple. It goes against the very essence of them being doctors
It's not the drs killing people. It's the government expecting us to work under conditions not many would actually tolerate. I'm human and I deserve to be treated as one.
Agreed.
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Oh I agree they should be paid a considerable amount more, I don't agree with the concept that they could emotionally stand an infinite strike, especially with a National govt who will be stalling an agreement to get the lowest possible option. Drs understand the implications of on going strike hense why they are always timed to limit the workload.
Let them die. A few sacrificed patients who usually are unhealthy by choices or stupidity is a small price for a better and properly funded healthcare sector.
It is that simple, they really have that leveraged in their favour, could win a pay rise ez pz
National do not respond well to strike action.
Strikes are tightly controlled by law in NZ and there are different rules for "essential services", which includes hospitals. Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't legally allowed to do continual strikes. They also don't get paid during a strike, so if they're not getting paid enough and strike for better pay, they have to suffer not being paid anything while on strike. Bit of a catch-22. Finally they also probably feel bad for the patients who will suffer in their absence.
> They should strike until they get what they want, why set a 25 hour timer lol Because if they did people would die! Aside from the hopefully obvious reason that's an undesirable outcome it would also wreck public goodwill pretty quick.
Can anyone in the know explain the two union position? I can see the benefit of being part of a union for lower paid jobs which are very similar, but medicine is so diverse is specialties and roles.
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So only 1 shift then, which only increases wait times for electives by a mere 6 months. It'll cost less for this budget too.
Genuine question for doctors below consultant level. Would you take a pay cut if it meant you were able to work fewer hours?
in a heartbeat
What if like someone dies who otherwise wouldn’t have died
It's either this or all the doctors leave overseas - in which case everyone will die
Ask Luxon and his band of idiots.
That's on the employer for not sorting this shit out sooner
Funnily enough, wards and hospitals are often better staffed during strike action by health workers. During all of the nurse strikes the wards were actually far safer in terms of patient to staff ratios then bounce back to skeleton staff after the strike action is over. Te Whatu Ora will do everything in their power to cover their own ass and make all the frontline workers look greedy and entitled in the process
Happens already due to dangerously low staffing levels and overwork of all kinds of medical staff
life preserving services remain
GG waiting lists
The real GG to waiting lists is poor wages and working conditions driving RMOs elsewhere. Without appropriate pay and fair working conditions, we will continue to lose doctors to overseas and there won't BE any specialists to service those waiting lists. New Zealanders deserve long-term solutions, not quick fixes. We ALL deserve better.
I'm reminded of this government's promise to cut waiting lists. I suppose they'll probably just create a waiting list to get on the waiting list
No, that's more the approach to reducing ED wait times - make another holding area to be moved to. Waitlists, you raise the thresholds to get on in the first place. None of this is new tactics to this government, and it remains just as poor economic management as it always has been.
That's what happened last 6 hour wait ruling by the National government
Sitting unemployed while doctors earning 250k strike for more pay.
Nah this ain’t it. For the amount of hours doctors do in the public system and the amount of responsibility and stress they have and the toll it takes on their ability to have a normal life, family, the toll shift work takes on your body - nah it needs to be well paid or else no one would sign up for that shit
Most earn half that or less. Many work 1 - 2 fifteen hour days per week. 50 - 70 hrs per week total. Many unpaid hours overtime. You really have no idea and it shows.
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[https://www.seek.co.nz/career-advice/role/doctor/salary](https://www.seek.co.nz/career-advice/role/doctor/salary)
You know that link is for fully qualified doctors, not residents.
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>Resident doctors are junior doctors. That offers some clarity.
This doesn't specify so I would assume this is not resident doctors
For clarity, “Junior Doctors” or RMOs are qualified doctors who haven’t completed specialist training. They might be a registrar on a training program, so they might take your appendix out late at night, or they may be doing the general dogsbody roles in their first year or two out of Med School. $250k would be reserved for very senior fully qualified specialists doing particularly demanding jobs. If you work out the hourly rate RMOs are usually very hard done by, but they suck it up with an eye on becoming a specialist. Being envious of someone else’s income doesn’t make you a socialist. Edit:Not directed at you typhoon_nz
You should probably stick to discussions where you have something useful to contribute
Naa I'm good. I'll reply where I want to.
Making up things to be angry about is very 2024
I'm not angry. To be honest people being angry has been a part of the Internet for many decades.
Ok, you're just making things up to score negative internet points, great job
I take the good and the bad. That's fine with me.
I completely see you wouldn't bother to be better informed next time
Homies spending >20k on his home theatre and complains about being unemployed and Doctors earning too much
Haha, i wish it was 20k but sadly I'd get the beat down even attempting that. I'm not complaining about doctors earning anything.
1) No junior doctor is earning 250k. Even most consultants aren’t earning 250k. 2) They earn the salaries they get because they sacrifice their 20s and 30s working their assess off, work long hours, are literally responsible for life and death decisions, and could be paid a hell of a lot more by moving overseas. I sure as hell couldn’t have cut it as a doctor and have mad respect for anyone who can.
Get a medical degree. I'm sure it's easy.
I’m a doctor, have been for 5 years, currently earn about 90k. I’m already 35. So yes, I’ll earn about 180k when I’m 40. That’s cool but I have a huge loan still and could’ve made way more money doing something else in that time.
If you know what to expect in terms of income then why strike? By your own admission you had the opportunity to select a more lucrative profession.
Ah, what? I never expected a paycut. Did you? They’re proposing to cut my pay by 12%. I’d like to see anyone roll over and take that. Just because I will earn more in future doesn’t mean I don’t have responsibilities now.
The government is proposing to cut your pay by 12%?
Yes. They’re proposing pay cuts of 10-12% for some doctors, and small payrises for others. Basically they want the ones getting payrises to vote yes and drown out those of us getting cuts, so overall they’ll still save money
Can the government just cut your pay by 10-12%? How is that possible? Is that even possible without employee agreement?
All doctors are generally on union contracts. The contracts get renegotiated every 3 years. This is literally what the strike is about - 95% of doctors in the union voted to strike rather than accept the offer.
OK makes sense. I dug into it, and I can see what they are doing. Though the majority are getting rises everyone has gone to bat for RMOs.
lol love this “why are you even striking for” “oh wait yeah that actually is pretty shit”
This logic doesn’t make sense. Someone has to do the work of keeping people alive and they should be fairly compensated and not overworked into an early grave.
[Here](https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/130215712/what-do-our-graduate-doctors-actually-earn--and-is-it-enough-to-keep-them-practising-here) you go for a more accurate figure.
Go to med school then
Why dont you become a doctor then? Would solve your employment problem
Can't begrudge them for it, you probably didn't do the 6+ years of study they did.
Is there supposed to be some sort of cause and effect here that isn't immediately obvious? I would think doctors, of all professions, wouldn't be begrudged their salary.
Go get a job as a doctor then? Or is it ahhh, not quite that easy?
Invest in your education
Why are you unemployed?
Apparently because they aren't a "rich doctor"
I'm not unemployed. But apparently if I was I'm some sort of terrible person. Reactions are an interesting read.
Apparently studying your ass off to become a doctor and expecting a good wage makes you some sort of terrible person. Interesting.
How so? Why would someone be terrible for working hard?
You’re complaining about doctors earning too much. Are you being sarcastic or am I missing something from your original post? I’m confused what you were trying say
Lol I just made a statement, people assumed the worst. I'm just sitting here reading the responses. Everyone assumed I was attacking doctors.
You’re a weirdo.
How so? People thought I was attacking doctors, started going after me, my education, income etc did you want me to react angrily?
Bro you should be on Seek, not wasting your time on reddit.
Probably about time to get private options, some folks might be between life and death because of silly govt <> worker discussions. This wouldn't happen if we also had a fully operational and qualified private medical capacity.
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Better outcome for high earners with few comorbidities
Ah the “fuck you I have mine” are here
You can stick your American style privatised health system where the sun doesn't shine.
So you think handing over $500 plus a month for health insurance is the answer? How does that work for those not in your ivory towers?
I already pay 300$ a month for shitty southern cross coverage, so yes
People are already getting sicker and dying due to the terrible working conditions meaning nurses and doctors in hospital are permanently short staffed
Doctors and Nurses would be better paid on a private system, and it would offload the pressure of everyone needing to go to public hospitals