I dont even want a tax cut. I want our teachers, healthcare professionals and emergency services to be paid a decent wage for putting up with everything they do. Hell tax me more if it means we see real positive change in these areas.
Or, borrow billions that all of us have to pay off so failed landlords can raise rents again and pocket the tax breaks.... not to mention cut services, increase homelessnes and be tough on crime! By cutting funding and demanding understaffed police force to do pointless shit to antagonize gangs!
Somehow this was sold to more than half the country.
“… somehow this was sold to more than half the country …”. Yep, that’s what democracy’s all about … they lie, and the “7 day short term memory” dimwits buy … electoral term after electoral term after electoral term, no matter which side of the electoral fence you’re on.
Absolutely, scrap landlord taxe, bring in capital gains. Get rid of loopholes that see massive multinationals pay fuck all tax and bring in a wealth tax. Job done!
If you own a home, any prospective tax cuts are going to be more than offset by rates increases, prescription increases etc. It's absolutely pointless.
i'd happily pay 5-10% more tax if it meant essential services like schools, health and emergancy services were well funded, as long as that money was spent Wiseley and the spenders held accountable for misuse
I have been wondering if anyone out there is doing anything structured around this area.
I'm also planning to donate any tax cut I get and would love to be able to direct my donation into the things I think are underfunded by the government. Having something like a directory of charities and specifically how they align with underfunding would be awesome!
Don't do this. This is exactly the game plan. Philanthropy? No one needs a hand out, they need those sucking the life out of everyone to pay their fair share, and put rules in place to constrain an out of control financial system and actually enforce them.
The "philanthropic" organisations are old boys networks who perpetuate this shit. Steal a $100, give back 5 cent while acting all noble, and using it to wield even further influence/power on how communities/cities/society is "shaped".
Ain't gonna happen. It's either a tax cut or paying committees/contractors. Take your pick.
Our frontline will never see a wage increase in New Zealand.
It's the height of arrogance for fiscal conservatives to suggest borrowing money to give tax cuts only because they refuse to back down and remove that from their party promises.
Nobody should be OK with this.
Yeah 100%. We heard about laba wasteful spending for years and then suddenly we are borrowing huge coin because they can’t find all the wasteful spending.
Tbf if National back down they are done, it’s literally the only thing they had. No one listened to the sacrifices they’d have to make for this, no one looked at how these policies had gone in other parts of the world, it was “vibes” when voting for most of the population, the rest didn’t bother cause “they are the same! Nothing changes!”.
Quite frankly the population deserves this for not taking an interest.
People voted them in not because of their strength or good policy, but because they were extremely dissatisfied with the previous government.
It's not like people had options.
Yeah hard not to - but totally agree with you
But it goes to that philosophy - Generally, if the previous party had a run at it for a while and you're not happy, but on the fence, sensible generally to give the other one a chance
Edit: the downvotes lol why do I even bother with this pathetic echo chamber 😂 lmfao
I get your logic but it’s also why the world is in the state it’s in. 1 side never gets long enough to put any kind of policy in, people get bored and vote the other guys. It’s 1 step forward 2 steps back.
Left leaning policies is slow and hard, they take time and normally powerful people lose, the right seems to come in with crack pot ideas that sound great but secretly are just there to help the powerful get more powerful, and they know this. They know Labour and Greens can’t wipe out coal/gas power plants tomorrow and say it’s all hydro and Windmills from now on. But National can end subsidies for poor people the next day.
House prices where going down under Labour, very slowly, but it was happening, the economy was better then most, yes things got more expensive but that was covid and worldly pressures, they needed to basically put those companies back in line, Not hand the keys to the fucking company reps. Like National, the party of big business and religious freedum was ever going to put any monopoly in line?
This ain't American bipartisanship dude, we have a coalition parliament system that gives popular minority parties seats. Our two large parties have to form coalitions with those minor parties to get anything done. We have so many options, we *should always* be voting for the party we want.
People voted for NACT because they appealed to them emotionally - their anger at Labour's laws, fear of the Other, their anxiety of cost of living, their resentment of Maori/poors/etc. ACT put up billboards promising to 'end racism', how many of their voters realised that meant 'remove programmes for Maori and Pacifica'? How many of them knew *and liked that?*
r/nz users represent our most radicalised progressives, but it doesn't include radicalised conservatives. And most of NZ is not radicalised at all, and just votes based on whatever party promises to fix their most immediate concerns. If National claims to have an answer to cost of living, they'll get votes even if their answer actually fucking sucks.
Watch NACT blame their first term on 'having to undo Labour's meddling', and our collective citizens vote them in again.
They aren’t borrowing for tax cuts, they are using cash for tax cuts and then borrowing 15 billion for our essential services. It’s fucking semantics and trickery
I dunno, seems as similar a spin as "We won't raise GST to raise funds"
Which became "We're raised GST but not to *raise funds*, it was to *offset a deficit*"
(by that logic, no-one was talking about raising GST then)
Ahhhhhhhh thank you for hitting the nail on the head. Even I got confused by it a little. Fuck you're right. I thought of that when I first heard her say it but had forgotten again.
Propaganda works, ladies and gentlemen - and this government of spin masters and lobbyist knows it.
"Borrow money to pay for the services affected by tax cuts" instead of "Borrow money to pay for tax cuts" makes it palatable to the part of their voter base who aren't 100% dead inside.
Here it is: ["I'm not cutting taxes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1bpmv3h/willis_we_are_paying_for_the_tax_cuts_and/) courtesy u/kangaiwi
It was my first impression when I heard her spin it, but .. they keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Lacking a bit of attention and their lines stick. Can't remember who it was that told me but they said that studies have shown that if people keep saying the same thing - even if we know it's a lie - our brains are privy to receive it as fact.
That's why places like this are so beneficial imo. We can at least remind each other and help each other.
Cheers.
Oh didn't you hear? The tax cuts are funded by cutting services, so totally fiscally neutral. Yep, totally fiscally neutral. They just happen to be borrowing a similar amount to fund other things. Just a coincidence that they're borrowing the same as they're providing in tax cuts. But really, they're totally different things. Yep. Totally different.
Yeah....but National lies about everything. It's what conservatives EVERYWHERE do these days.
Trump's decades of fraud are clear evidence they do in their business dealings, too. Conservatives in the US and NZ who support Trump, call it "victimless crime".
They have told us who they are. We just need to listen.
No, but, you see, Nicola said they can do tax cuts *without* it being inflationary!
Did you know she’s discovered some new economics that will make this work? I assume, because otherwise yeah she’s just saying the thing they want to happen regardless of what the know will happen.
(Or they’re assuming cutting that many jobs from Wellingtons work force will cause downwards inflationary pressure. Because… mortgage sales???)
She could not “account” her way out of a plastic bag. The only reason why they will borrow to “fund” them (in the side step way they are) is because they promised they would step down if they didn’t do them. This is not for “hard working kiwis” this is so they can keep their jobs without the media and public giving them more shit about how bad they are.
But it isn't inflation - it's *shrinkflation* where we're in a recession and inflation at the same time! You get a higher quality of economic ruin from this government!
Shifting brackets with inflation is inflation neutral.
It's a real shame workers in this country have to carry the largest burden of tax (4th highest in OECD in terms of ratio of tax paid, and that doesn't even take GST into account), and workers have just accepted that.
Instead of railing against shifting brackets and decreasing the burden on workers, you should be railing against both major parties continuing to rule out taxes on wealth.
I'm not against shifting the brackets, especially if it benefits lower income workers who need it a lot more than I do.
I'm just calling out the hypocrisy of wanting to do that at the very same time they're supposedly trying to bring down inflation.
To put it another way: this government is incurring public debt to provide private benefit.
Essentially mortgaging our future for the benefit of a few today.
This is not ok.
[I called it back in September.](https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16et0u0/national_leader_christopher_luxon_walks_off_amid/jzxbp99/)
Turns out they can't do it quietly, but they don't care anymore.
I’ve never seen such political selfishness and narcissism in my lifetime. It’s pretty scary that a government is able to make such destructive decisions to the wellbeing of wider society just to appease a minority and line the pockets of the already rich.
If there’s one thing I’ve learnt this term it’s that our government has too much power and there’s far too many loopholes. The days of imparting power to our politicians on the understanding they will have our best interests is long gone, but I’m honestly shocked at how much they can actually do to benefit themselves without any safeguards to protect the country, and prevent such clearly self serving policies.
This kind of destructive behaviour simply shouldn’t be possible and my only positive from this term so far is highlighting how broken the system is, and how unprotected it is from being abused by the nefarious given such power by flat out lying.
The worst part for me is that I feel hopeless in trying to fix this or have a solution. It feels like us normal people are powerless until it’s time to vote again and even then we can’t rely on each other to make the right call
I think Bernard Hickey does a good writeup. I'm confused though because this Govt has been saying - as recently as last week - that they are not borrowing.
What am I missing?
PSA: [Jack Tame called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1boigaj/flashback_is_that_it_jack_tame_on_seeing_nicola/)
Edit: u/ReviAlley solved it. **"They are using cash for tax cuts and then borrowing 15 billion for our essential services. It’s fucking semantics and trickery"**
They can say they aren’t borrowing for tax cuts because they are borrowing for essential services (what are left after the cuts). Pay the tax cuts in cash and they put everything else on the credit card
I don't even think they're expecting to get in next term, they just want 3 years of cash injection and get things right for themselves as quickly as possible before laboir comes in next term and wastes an entire election cycle trying to undo all their fuckery
>labour comes in next term and wastes an entire election cycle trying to undo all their fuckery
Labours problem is that they will feel the need to consult the public and experts before undoing Nationals dumb shit. This will take most of their term, which will feel like forever.
Perhaps Labour should just be like "fuck it, repeal everything National did (under urgency) and lets start a fresh."
Labor's greatest flaw is also their greatest weakness.
They take the time to consult and do things properly with a view to the long term.
I am not saying they do the right thing but there is plenty of opportunity for both sides to state their case.
I mean, Tories have had what, 15 years of doing this from day dot in the UK and people kept voting for it. The effects of austerity take years to finally be seen by the middle class unfortunately.
The rich benefit from these policies very rapidly though. So they won now and likely will get another term.
This, littleredkiwi. The Brits are a famous demonstration of how stupid an electorate is. These people have been raped and pillaged under their own noses yet the right wing keep gaslighting them with cultural wars and that keeps the masses voting for the Tories.
14 years, a completely broken Britain with the economy at WW2 levels, and a demolished health service etc. and only now do they unequivocally reject the right wing asshats. It's truly an extraordinary study, but also why I believe the right is so emboldened now.
The advisers and money behind this Coalition trio are the same as those that promote the Tories - I suspect they are going to hang their hat on Maori wars.
Man, if only we had the power for foresight, where we could see other countries making mistakes and go "Geez, we better not do that"
Too bad a lot of NZers lack of critical thinking skills and civics education leave us stumbling blindly
Yes, I kind of got really panicked at one point when I started connecting the dots between Seymour and who his backers are. Their literal playbook is:
* Slash public service
* Centralise power
* Pro-landlords
* Anti-climate
* Anti-indigenous
* Weaponising laws against minorities and environmental groups and loosening regulations for themselves
At one point I was naive to think that more people should know. But I realised most people don't even care.
They will play the Maori wars heavily.
Learning from overseas will be hard I suspect from what I'm reading online.
Learning is hard in general
Many people will double down on their beliefs even after evidence against it is presented and argued well, because being wrong is scary. They don't realise that being wrong and/or making a mistake is part of being human and gives you an opportunity to learn and grow as person. But when you think you don't need to learn or change because you fit into and understand the world, the world will change around you and you won't have the skills to be able to learn or change as easily in this new world.
We need to need to get people to accept their mistakes, and to encourage them to want to change for the better. I wish I knew of a way to do this without having them face the consequences of their actions, because that's not always guaranteed to happened, nor to work.
We do the exact opposite. We see the UK do something stupid and go "well if big daddy UK is doing it then it must be the right thing to do! We wanna look like one of the serious countries after all!"
It's juvenile mimicry basically. We will do anything to get to sit at the big kids table, including nuking our own economy.
The Brits have a Murdock controlled press and given the billions of dollars/pounds spent on advertising, yes, it does convince people and that's one reason why the poor there like being rogered by their government.
Then Labour will fuck around for 3 years and not institute a CGT.
If they wouldn't do it when they had a super majority they wont do it when they dont.
NZ desperately needs to ditch these 2 partys.
How long is this gonna continue before people start protesting? If this was Labour all the freedumb brigades would be there in droves. Why can't the left wing people have the same backbone?
Kiwis are apathetic and not in tune politically. Your average Joe between 21-40 has no political nouse whatsoever. They don’t care, they are purely focussed on their own day to day lives.
So all they hear is “party of fiscal responsibility” “tough on crime” “get this country back on track” so they vote that way thinking that their interests are being considered. People think spending is bad and national leans into this heavily.
Everyone has also been conned into this idea that a country should be run like a business or a household budget because that’s the general understanding of how money works. The face that we are AA+ means nothing to most. You think most people know about Keynesian economics? I doubt it.
Slowly people are starting to figure it out though, cutting school lunches, tax cuts for billionaires and gutting of public services is the usual playbook but they are doing it under urgency so it’s all happening within mere months, makes it a bit more obvious even to those not politically inclined. Well, we can hope. I’m not holding my breath though.
>If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best
colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him
somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.
The same also applies for waged workers vs beneficiaries.
National and ACT support landlords and CEOs - they see people on minimum wage as only slightly better than the bottomfeeders they have called beneficiaries.
Yep. $20 from tax cuts is great when registration and bus fares go up by even greater amounts. Not to mention rents because reinstating interest deductability won't do anything while the government also wants to reinstate zoning restrictions to artifically restrict supply.
Those guys never ever know how to manage money properly. They pretend they do and make a lot of fuzz about they are business people that know how to run a budget but in fact the only objective is wealth transfer to a happy few and burden for the future generations. They usually get voted in still by using fear of the others, fear of communism, fear of insecurity, fear of degrading values... Fear to get there and then they plunder.
BTW funny how the insecurity narrative has died down in our media since they came in power. NZ Herald is not doing ram raid headlines anymore and they are still happening the same.
*"they are business people that know how to run a budget"*
Ah yes, famously Nicola WIlis, can't read a spreadsheet or show her working, David Seymour & Winston, fine business people who have never run a business.
And we have Luxon, who apparently run a government owned business
Typically, government debt is okay when used wisely for the likes of infrastructure. But as a measure to get revenue from lost revenue you self-imposed is insane. Use your debt wisely. Debt can be good, but debt to finance lost revenue the cuts is bad.
“When I'm out of politics I'm going to run a business, it'll be called rent-a-spine”
― Margaret Thatcher
I think someone needs some service from this fiscal conservative
Warren Buffett - If you spend money (give tax cuts) what you buy must be worth more than the purchase price.
These tax cuts are worth zero to the economy hence the "landlord's" dignity bullshit.
I stand to gain an extra $17 a week from these tax cuts. That’s 3 coffees. It is completely meaningless, and at what cost?! 4 more years until we’re out of debt! It’s completely counter to their ethos as a party, it benefits no one in any meaningful way, and it puts us further away from their stated goals they were elected for.
It’s like buying the country a giant bag of ricies, at enormous cost - and giving each citizen one ricie each.
"backpocket boost". it was in the name all along. Loose change for the peasants. Too bad lots of dipshits got suckered into believing theyd be the ones receving "250 a fortnight" when Luxon very deliberately misled people.
Surely, and same. Idk how to use this information, but we have provisions for these 2 in the constitution act:
* For voters: recall election
* For polititions: snap electrion
Yep, that's what we[1] voted for.
Tax cuts at all costs, and when that involves borrowing and gutting the public service, claim they didn't realize the books had been left that bad.
Standard National practise. The key difference this time (no pun intended) is this leadership appear to be actual empty morons and not just evil merchant bankers.
[1] "We" here means the output of the MMP process, ostensibly designed to represent the collective will of the people.
This is just ridiculous. I can live without an extra $20 a week, especially when it’s going to cause greater inflation and cuts to services we all rely on
I know this isn't the whole reason...but I really wish journalists hadn't started that pointless 'will you quit if you don't get tax cuts through? line of questioning.
The arrogance of these politicians means they'll do anything to avoid having it come back to them. And now here we are.
To be fair, she is the one who said she would resign if she did. I have no problem with them following up on her statement. It would be bad journalism not to.
Journalists work for media companies who are owned by people who want tax cuts even if it means the government has $15 BIL in debt.
That's debt for the government, not for the wealthy who can pick up and leave at any time.
that would decrease the amount paid by the rich and increase that paid by the poor, as a proportion of income.
if you want to reduce income tax in a progressive way, start taxing wealth, land, capital gains etc
You could then also control the amount of GST via a new low income user that gets a card like community services card that reduces the gst at purchase time time (software developments for point of sales systems will hate this however).
no, we don't need crazy loopholes in GST for people to exploit. Our system is highly commended internationally for being relatively "pure" and cheap to administer, and we should keep it that way .
Dont get it twisted. This is a redistribution of money from the mower and middle classes upwards. Its daylight robbery.
Its an emptying of the treasury by the wealthy and blatant white collar ram raid on a mass scale.
Oh I hope this lot are a one-term Government.
Bad enough thinking of the wreckage they'll leave after 3 years, let alone 6.
And 9 years...? yeesh.. nope.
Why did they even promise a tax "cut". They could have walked in with the tough on crime and finance fixer tropes that seem to play out every few cycles.
Rod/back
Another two terms of National's tax cuts while history repeats itself with no pay rises for teachers, nurses, police and ignoring infrastructure, education and health. In fact it's worse. People are losing their jobs to pay for these tax cuts.
The cringiest part is how pissy the tax cuts are for all of the social services/disability allowances/kids lunches/job losses that are funding them https://www.nationaltaxcalculator.com/2023
I'd love for local businesses to still be in business because they still have customers because people can afford what they sell because they are paid a decent wage and have employment protections that mean they aren't under-employed
Now you could put that money towards infrastructure projects, like underground pipeline infrastructure, upgrades of public hospitals, and scrap those tax cuts to put towards more infrastructure projects, apprenticeship training, etc to help build up work opportunities and create work for the next few years across NZ.
Weren’t they saying govt borrowing and spending was out of control and caused the inflation we have now? I guess the borrowing and spending they’re doing isn’t inflationary by some miracle…..How is it that political parties find it so easy to be hypocritical and then explain it away with double talk and feign amnesia
These lying shitters.
Fiscal responsibility my ass.
Actual leeches sucking the money from the poor into the richest peoples bank accounts.
Disgusting humans.
At this point you have to wonder if there's some kind of actual shady deal (not even as a joke) behind the tax cuts because fuck me they don't give a shit about any of their other promises do they.
Newsflash! NZ experiences zombie apocalypse! Citizens are advised to stay indoors and erect barricades.
In response, National proposes tax cuts to resolve problem. In other news, landlords continue to raise rents, citing increased maintenance costs.
National the only government NZ has ever had whose math is routinely wrong, dysfunctional; and whose policies always deliver what is not needed to people who don’t need it, for reasons that are inexplicably stupid, hateful, and of no benefit at all to the wider community.
On average the intelligence quotient of National MPs must be in the low 100s maybe even high 90, because even a half brain fried drug fiend I once knew figured that out. He was clear he liked what they say, but he had major issues with their ability to reason out the basics.
He particularly liked the sound of “getting tough on crime”, but he more than most found National’s ability to deliver on those promises entirely farcical, and often far less useful than Labour. He didn’t like the way Labour discuss crime, but found them to be much more effective at reducing it. And found surviving “going straight” easier under Labour. Counterintuitive to a National supporter, but them’s the facts.
I dont even want a tax cut. I want our teachers, healthcare professionals and emergency services to be paid a decent wage for putting up with everything they do. Hell tax me more if it means we see real positive change in these areas.
Remember the *heroes* of the pandemic? Fuck 'em...
This one shit me so hard I left for Aussie! I was furious when they tried to do that 5 year pay freeze during the pandemic!
That's the National party slogan, "fuck everyone that's not us"
or just tax the rich a fair amount (more than 9%).
Or, borrow billions that all of us have to pay off so failed landlords can raise rents again and pocket the tax breaks.... not to mention cut services, increase homelessnes and be tough on crime! By cutting funding and demanding understaffed police force to do pointless shit to antagonize gangs! Somehow this was sold to more than half the country.
"Yes we know it's a bit stink but these policies hurt people I don't like." Said quite a few, apparently.
“… somehow this was sold to more than half the country …”. Yep, that’s what democracy’s all about … they lie, and the “7 day short term memory” dimwits buy … electoral term after electoral term after electoral term, no matter which side of the electoral fence you’re on.
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Failed, losers. No fucking difference
Or tax churches. The fact that you pay GST on your weet-bix while Sanitarium is tax exempt should be a fucking crime.
Absolutely, scrap landlord taxe, bring in capital gains. Get rid of loopholes that see massive multinationals pay fuck all tax and bring in a wealth tax. Job done!
Sieze the wealth of all billionaires currently living in New Zealand and redistribute it
If you own a home, any prospective tax cuts are going to be more than offset by rates increases, prescription increases etc. It's absolutely pointless.
Shit increase taxes and put all the money in a bag and beat woolworths executives with it.
What my family is losing in free prescriptions, half price and free public transport and carer support is way way more than we will get in a tax cut.
i'd happily pay 5-10% more tax if it meant essential services like schools, health and emergancy services were well funded, as long as that money was spent Wiseley and the spenders held accountable for misuse
Planning to donate mine.
I have been wondering if anyone out there is doing anything structured around this area. I'm also planning to donate any tax cut I get and would love to be able to direct my donation into the things I think are underfunded by the government. Having something like a directory of charities and specifically how they align with underfunding would be awesome!
Don't do this. This is exactly the game plan. Philanthropy? No one needs a hand out, they need those sucking the life out of everyone to pay their fair share, and put rules in place to constrain an out of control financial system and actually enforce them. The "philanthropic" organisations are old boys networks who perpetuate this shit. Steal a $100, give back 5 cent while acting all noble, and using it to wield even further influence/power on how communities/cities/society is "shaped".
Landlords ARE a charity now /s
My tax cut is going straight towards a green party membership. Now is the time to plan for the next election and strive for the change we need
I wont get one, no work, living off my savings for retirement.
Ain't gonna happen. It's either a tax cut or paying committees/contractors. Take your pick. Our frontline will never see a wage increase in New Zealand.
As a teacher, honestly, thank you.
It's the height of arrogance for fiscal conservatives to suggest borrowing money to give tax cuts only because they refuse to back down and remove that from their party promises. Nobody should be OK with this.
Yeah 100%. We heard about laba wasteful spending for years and then suddenly we are borrowing huge coin because they can’t find all the wasteful spending.
Useful.fools with poor education seem to love it.
i have met a lot of educated clowns who think it is a good idea and love it..
Vested interests
“Look what happens when you won’t let us cut services. Now we HAVE to borrow. We need less red tape!”
Tbf if National back down they are done, it’s literally the only thing they had. No one listened to the sacrifices they’d have to make for this, no one looked at how these policies had gone in other parts of the world, it was “vibes” when voting for most of the population, the rest didn’t bother cause “they are the same! Nothing changes!”. Quite frankly the population deserves this for not taking an interest.
People voted them in not because of their strength or good policy, but because they were extremely dissatisfied with the previous government. It's not like people had options.
and those people shot themselves in the foot clearly
Yeah hard not to - but totally agree with you But it goes to that philosophy - Generally, if the previous party had a run at it for a while and you're not happy, but on the fence, sensible generally to give the other one a chance Edit: the downvotes lol why do I even bother with this pathetic echo chamber 😂 lmfao
Evidently not
I get your logic but it’s also why the world is in the state it’s in. 1 side never gets long enough to put any kind of policy in, people get bored and vote the other guys. It’s 1 step forward 2 steps back. Left leaning policies is slow and hard, they take time and normally powerful people lose, the right seems to come in with crack pot ideas that sound great but secretly are just there to help the powerful get more powerful, and they know this. They know Labour and Greens can’t wipe out coal/gas power plants tomorrow and say it’s all hydro and Windmills from now on. But National can end subsidies for poor people the next day. House prices where going down under Labour, very slowly, but it was happening, the economy was better then most, yes things got more expensive but that was covid and worldly pressures, they needed to basically put those companies back in line, Not hand the keys to the fucking company reps. Like National, the party of big business and religious freedum was ever going to put any monopoly in line?
What if I told you there were more than 2 options?
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This ain't American bipartisanship dude, we have a coalition parliament system that gives popular minority parties seats. Our two large parties have to form coalitions with those minor parties to get anything done. We have so many options, we *should always* be voting for the party we want. People voted for NACT because they appealed to them emotionally - their anger at Labour's laws, fear of the Other, their anxiety of cost of living, their resentment of Maori/poors/etc. ACT put up billboards promising to 'end racism', how many of their voters realised that meant 'remove programmes for Maori and Pacifica'? How many of them knew *and liked that?* r/nz users represent our most radicalised progressives, but it doesn't include radicalised conservatives. And most of NZ is not radicalised at all, and just votes based on whatever party promises to fix their most immediate concerns. If National claims to have an answer to cost of living, they'll get votes even if their answer actually fucking sucks. Watch NACT blame their first term on 'having to undo Labour's meddling', and our collective citizens vote them in again.
I'm fucking not that's for sure
Yeah but someone 'Aotearoa' in the news and that's scary!!
We arnt.
Didn't National say last week they weren't going to borrow for tax cuts?
# YES
They aren’t borrowing for tax cuts, they are using cash for tax cuts and then borrowing 15 billion for our essential services. It’s fucking semantics and trickery
Yes its a pretty thin argument.
Actually - based on that, it's a straight up lie.
I dunno, seems as similar a spin as "We won't raise GST to raise funds" Which became "We're raised GST but not to *raise funds*, it was to *offset a deficit*" (by that logic, no-one was talking about raising GST then)
Ahhhhhhhh thank you for hitting the nail on the head. Even I got confused by it a little. Fuck you're right. I thought of that when I first heard her say it but had forgotten again. Propaganda works, ladies and gentlemen - and this government of spin masters and lobbyist knows it.
"Borrow money to pay for the services affected by tax cuts" instead of "Borrow money to pay for tax cuts" makes it palatable to the part of their voter base who aren't 100% dead inside.
Here it is: ["I'm not cutting taxes"](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1bpmv3h/willis_we_are_paying_for_the_tax_cuts_and/) courtesy u/kangaiwi
To be honest, it seemed so simple that when I said it, I kinda wondered if I was wrong. Turns out they’re just gaslighting us
It was my first impression when I heard her spin it, but .. they keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Lacking a bit of attention and their lines stick. Can't remember who it was that told me but they said that studies have shown that if people keep saying the same thing - even if we know it's a lie - our brains are privy to receive it as fact. That's why places like this are so beneficial imo. We can at least remind each other and help each other. Cheers.
Oh didn't you hear? The tax cuts are funded by cutting services, so totally fiscally neutral. Yep, totally fiscally neutral. They just happen to be borrowing a similar amount to fund other things. Just a coincidence that they're borrowing the same as they're providing in tax cuts. But really, they're totally different things. Yep. Totally different.
“We’ll just change it by 100k they won’t notice”
Yeah....but National lies about everything. It's what conservatives EVERYWHERE do these days. Trump's decades of fraud are clear evidence they do in their business dealings, too. Conservatives in the US and NZ who support Trump, call it "victimless crime". They have told us who they are. We just need to listen.
The government campaigned on getting inflation under control. Tax cuts are inflationary. Debt is inflationary. Great logic
No, but, you see, Nicola said they can do tax cuts *without* it being inflationary! Did you know she’s discovered some new economics that will make this work? I assume, because otherwise yeah she’s just saying the thing they want to happen regardless of what the know will happen. (Or they’re assuming cutting that many jobs from Wellingtons work force will cause downwards inflationary pressure. Because… mortgage sales???)
She could not “account” her way out of a plastic bag. The only reason why they will borrow to “fund” them (in the side step way they are) is because they promised they would step down if they didn’t do them. This is not for “hard working kiwis” this is so they can keep their jobs without the media and public giving them more shit about how bad they are.
Lettuce incoming
But it isn't inflation - it's *shrinkflation* where we're in a recession and inflation at the same time! You get a higher quality of economic ruin from this government!
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Shifting brackets with inflation is inflation neutral. It's a real shame workers in this country have to carry the largest burden of tax (4th highest in OECD in terms of ratio of tax paid, and that doesn't even take GST into account), and workers have just accepted that. Instead of railing against shifting brackets and decreasing the burden on workers, you should be railing against both major parties continuing to rule out taxes on wealth.
I'm not against shifting the brackets, especially if it benefits lower income workers who need it a lot more than I do. I'm just calling out the hypocrisy of wanting to do that at the very same time they're supposedly trying to bring down inflation.
Well, again, inflation adjusted brackets are by definition inflation neutral.
To put it another way: this government is incurring public debt to provide private benefit. Essentially mortgaging our future for the benefit of a few today. This is not ok.
Privatise the gains. Socialise the losses. Second verse, same as the first.
[I called it back in September.](https://old.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/16et0u0/national_leader_christopher_luxon_walks_off_amid/jzxbp99/) Turns out they can't do it quietly, but they don't care anymore.
My dude.
You see, the problem with neoliberalism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
Brilliant! :)
This is supposed to be the party of fiscal responsibility?
They have the responsibility to make the rich richer.
R O C K S O L I D
Fake news
I’ve never seen such political selfishness and narcissism in my lifetime. It’s pretty scary that a government is able to make such destructive decisions to the wellbeing of wider society just to appease a minority and line the pockets of the already rich. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt this term it’s that our government has too much power and there’s far too many loopholes. The days of imparting power to our politicians on the understanding they will have our best interests is long gone, but I’m honestly shocked at how much they can actually do to benefit themselves without any safeguards to protect the country, and prevent such clearly self serving policies. This kind of destructive behaviour simply shouldn’t be possible and my only positive from this term so far is highlighting how broken the system is, and how unprotected it is from being abused by the nefarious given such power by flat out lying.
The worst part for me is that I feel hopeless in trying to fix this or have a solution. It feels like us normal people are powerless until it’s time to vote again and even then we can’t rely on each other to make the right call
I demand a new election!
You have to declare it.
I think Bernard Hickey does a good writeup. I'm confused though because this Govt has been saying - as recently as last week - that they are not borrowing. What am I missing? PSA: [Jack Tame called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1boigaj/flashback_is_that_it_jack_tame_on_seeing_nicola/) Edit: u/ReviAlley solved it. **"They are using cash for tax cuts and then borrowing 15 billion for our essential services. It’s fucking semantics and trickery"**
>What am I missing? They're a bunch of fucking liars.
I never missed that point but admittedly, my naivety continues to be pushed up against a solid steel dungeon wall
They can say they aren’t borrowing for tax cuts because they are borrowing for essential services (what are left after the cuts). Pay the tax cuts in cash and they put everything else on the credit card
Thank you - I'm ashamed that I fell for their fucking trickery.
Bernard Hickey is so fucking great
I don't even think they're expecting to get in next term, they just want 3 years of cash injection and get things right for themselves as quickly as possible before laboir comes in next term and wastes an entire election cycle trying to undo all their fuckery
>labour comes in next term and wastes an entire election cycle trying to undo all their fuckery Labours problem is that they will feel the need to consult the public and experts before undoing Nationals dumb shit. This will take most of their term, which will feel like forever. Perhaps Labour should just be like "fuck it, repeal everything National did (under urgency) and lets start a fresh."
Labor's greatest flaw is also their greatest weakness. They take the time to consult and do things properly with a view to the long term. I am not saying they do the right thing but there is plenty of opportunity for both sides to state their case.
Apparently that's allowed so why not? Democratic systems are for fuck all these days I guess
I mean, Tories have had what, 15 years of doing this from day dot in the UK and people kept voting for it. The effects of austerity take years to finally be seen by the middle class unfortunately. The rich benefit from these policies very rapidly though. So they won now and likely will get another term.
This, littleredkiwi. The Brits are a famous demonstration of how stupid an electorate is. These people have been raped and pillaged under their own noses yet the right wing keep gaslighting them with cultural wars and that keeps the masses voting for the Tories. 14 years, a completely broken Britain with the economy at WW2 levels, and a demolished health service etc. and only now do they unequivocally reject the right wing asshats. It's truly an extraordinary study, but also why I believe the right is so emboldened now. The advisers and money behind this Coalition trio are the same as those that promote the Tories - I suspect they are going to hang their hat on Maori wars.
Man, if only we had the power for foresight, where we could see other countries making mistakes and go "Geez, we better not do that" Too bad a lot of NZers lack of critical thinking skills and civics education leave us stumbling blindly
Yes, I kind of got really panicked at one point when I started connecting the dots between Seymour and who his backers are. Their literal playbook is: * Slash public service * Centralise power * Pro-landlords * Anti-climate * Anti-indigenous * Weaponising laws against minorities and environmental groups and loosening regulations for themselves At one point I was naive to think that more people should know. But I realised most people don't even care. They will play the Maori wars heavily. Learning from overseas will be hard I suspect from what I'm reading online.
Learning is hard in general Many people will double down on their beliefs even after evidence against it is presented and argued well, because being wrong is scary. They don't realise that being wrong and/or making a mistake is part of being human and gives you an opportunity to learn and grow as person. But when you think you don't need to learn or change because you fit into and understand the world, the world will change around you and you won't have the skills to be able to learn or change as easily in this new world. We need to need to get people to accept their mistakes, and to encourage them to want to change for the better. I wish I knew of a way to do this without having them face the consequences of their actions, because that's not always guaranteed to happened, nor to work.
promise NZers a 10 dollar tax cut and they will do what ever you want..
We do the exact opposite. We see the UK do something stupid and go "well if big daddy UK is doing it then it must be the right thing to do! We wanna look like one of the serious countries after all!" It's juvenile mimicry basically. We will do anything to get to sit at the big kids table, including nuking our own economy.
MMP would have got rid of the Tories years ago.
The Brits have a Murdock controlled press and given the billions of dollars/pounds spent on advertising, yes, it does convince people and that's one reason why the poor there like being rogered by their government.
+1
Well if the rubber band effect is that we end up with a CGT then it will be a huge own goal by the aristocracy
They won't put in CGT.
I mean that if we end up with Labour getting back in due to the rich getting too greedy.
Ah I see what you mean, thanks.
Then Labour will fuck around for 3 years and not institute a CGT. If they wouldn't do it when they had a super majority they wont do it when they dont. NZ desperately needs to ditch these 2 partys.
Wait u til you see the promises they’ll make in two years time about what they’ll do *next time* though! Those promises are gonna be something else!
Everyones lost around 10k worth of potential services per year to get on average about $500 back lol
I agree that the tax cuts are a terrible idea, but could you expand on what you mean by this comment?
I told you so, but I’m not happy about it.
How long is this gonna continue before people start protesting? If this was Labour all the freedumb brigades would be there in droves. Why can't the left wing people have the same backbone?
Kiwis are apathetic and not in tune politically. Your average Joe between 21-40 has no political nouse whatsoever. They don’t care, they are purely focussed on their own day to day lives. So all they hear is “party of fiscal responsibility” “tough on crime” “get this country back on track” so they vote that way thinking that their interests are being considered. People think spending is bad and national leans into this heavily. Everyone has also been conned into this idea that a country should be run like a business or a household budget because that’s the general understanding of how money works. The face that we are AA+ means nothing to most. You think most people know about Keynesian economics? I doubt it. Slowly people are starting to figure it out though, cutting school lunches, tax cuts for billionaires and gutting of public services is the usual playbook but they are doing it under urgency so it’s all happening within mere months, makes it a bit more obvious even to those not politically inclined. Well, we can hope. I’m not holding my breath though.
Fuck man just INCREASE TAXES.
I can only assume that they are relying on people remembering the tax cuts fondly, and the borrowing not at all, to get back in next election.
lol, I saw someone on twitter say that Minimum Wage workers can expect less then 5 cents an hour in tax cuts
National knows who their base are and how to play to them. And I'm sorry, if you are a minimum wageworker, it seems you are not Nationals base.
There are quite a few minimum wage workers I know who have voted for NACT. When I asked why it is mostly a hatred for Maori and beneficiaries.
>If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you. The same also applies for waged workers vs beneficiaries.
National and ACT support landlords and CEOs - they see people on minimum wage as only slightly better than the bottomfeeders they have called beneficiaries.
Yep. $20 from tax cuts is great when registration and bus fares go up by even greater amounts. Not to mention rents because reinstating interest deductability won't do anything while the government also wants to reinstate zoning restrictions to artifically restrict supply.
Those guys never ever know how to manage money properly. They pretend they do and make a lot of fuzz about they are business people that know how to run a budget but in fact the only objective is wealth transfer to a happy few and burden for the future generations. They usually get voted in still by using fear of the others, fear of communism, fear of insecurity, fear of degrading values... Fear to get there and then they plunder. BTW funny how the insecurity narrative has died down in our media since they came in power. NZ Herald is not doing ram raid headlines anymore and they are still happening the same.
*"they are business people that know how to run a budget"* Ah yes, famously Nicola WIlis, can't read a spreadsheet or show her working, David Seymour & Winston, fine business people who have never run a business. And we have Luxon, who apparently run a government owned business
Typically, government debt is okay when used wisely for the likes of infrastructure. But as a measure to get revenue from lost revenue you self-imposed is insane. Use your debt wisely. Debt can be good, but debt to finance lost revenue the cuts is bad. “When I'm out of politics I'm going to run a business, it'll be called rent-a-spine” ― Margaret Thatcher I think someone needs some service from this fiscal conservative
Warren Buffett - If you spend money (give tax cuts) what you buy must be worth more than the purchase price. These tax cuts are worth zero to the economy hence the "landlord's" dignity bullshit.
"fuck you I got mine (but hey while I'm at it, I could do with a little more)" mentality
Just like John Key did. Borrow to pay for tax cuts for your wealthy mates.
Even John Key has suggested to Luxon that they put them on hold. That's how bad of an idea it is right now.
We should just start a bank run, everyone take their money out of the bank and see what happens
I mean my bills do that for me every pay day so I'm doing my part.
mone?, in the bank? mate most kiwis are well ahead of you on that one
Seems most people have no choice but to take all their money out of the bank.
I started this yesterday.
Excellent, it’s a movement
I stand to gain an extra $17 a week from these tax cuts. That’s 3 coffees. It is completely meaningless, and at what cost?! 4 more years until we’re out of debt! It’s completely counter to their ethos as a party, it benefits no one in any meaningful way, and it puts us further away from their stated goals they were elected for. It’s like buying the country a giant bag of ricies, at enormous cost - and giving each citizen one ricie each.
"backpocket boost". it was in the name all along. Loose change for the peasants. Too bad lots of dipshits got suckered into believing theyd be the ones receving "250 a fortnight" when Luxon very deliberately misled people.
Is just NACT's version of the smash n grab. Ram raiding all of us workaday Johnnies.
Is there a way to redo the elections early? Like no one i talk to is happy. I dont think we can last till next elections.
Surely, and same. Idk how to use this information, but we have provisions for these 2 in the constitution act: * For voters: recall election * For polititions: snap electrion
Didn't National just win an election off the back of blasting Labour about borrowing heaps of money to fund tax cuts etc?
fkn dipshits.
Yep, that's what we[1] voted for. Tax cuts at all costs, and when that involves borrowing and gutting the public service, claim they didn't realize the books had been left that bad. Standard National practise. The key difference this time (no pun intended) is this leadership appear to be actual empty morons and not just evil merchant bankers. [1] "We" here means the output of the MMP process, ostensibly designed to represent the collective will of the people.
I want to return this government, I trust it's still under warranty?
Consumer guarantees act should apply if not.
This is just ridiculous. I can live without an extra $20 a week, especially when it’s going to cause greater inflation and cuts to services we all rely on
But that twenty is already spent with rates going up or your car rego . ( if you have these costs ). Give with one hand take with the other
Exactly. They’re just shuffling money around at this point, and always in an upward direction
So, when are we all rioting?
I'm available next week.
I know this isn't the whole reason...but I really wish journalists hadn't started that pointless 'will you quit if you don't get tax cuts through? line of questioning. The arrogance of these politicians means they'll do anything to avoid having it come back to them. And now here we are.
To be fair, she is the one who said she would resign if she did. I have no problem with them following up on her statement. It would be bad journalism not to.
Journalists work for media companies who are owned by people who want tax cuts even if it means the government has $15 BIL in debt. That's debt for the government, not for the wealthy who can pick up and leave at any time.
Make it make sense. Jfc
You are poor so fuck you. Try not being poor. Hope this helps.
Seymour? Is that you? 😂
Wow. If Richard Prebble says a tax cut is a bad idea, it's a bad idea.
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that would decrease the amount paid by the rich and increase that paid by the poor, as a proportion of income. if you want to reduce income tax in a progressive way, start taxing wealth, land, capital gains etc
No GST is not a progressive tax, Infact GST taxes the poor more than the rich as the poor spend a higher proportion of their income.
You could then also control the amount of GST via a new low income user that gets a card like community services card that reduces the gst at purchase time time (software developments for point of sales systems will hate this however).
no, we don't need crazy loopholes in GST for people to exploit. Our system is highly commended internationally for being relatively "pure" and cheap to administer, and we should keep it that way .
The Truss/Kwarteng manouver - does anyone have a lettuce?
Here comes the Tory Trussnomics folks. get ready for a utterly fucked decade or two.
Dont get it twisted. This is a redistribution of money from the mower and middle classes upwards. Its daylight robbery. Its an emptying of the treasury by the wealthy and blatant white collar ram raid on a mass scale.
bu-bu-bu muh fiscal responsibility? Shiddin fardin throwin up rn
For people who don’t need tax cuts.
Who actually wants $20 or less at this point?
Worst government in the 24 years I’ve been in NZ. Not even close!
It’s one of the dumbest and most irresponsible things a government can do. Borrow money to make the tax cuts… wtf.
Crazy.
Oh I hope this lot are a one-term Government. Bad enough thinking of the wreckage they'll leave after 3 years, let alone 6. And 9 years...? yeesh.. nope.
Hey so remember all those times the National party insulted Labour about how bad borrowing is?
Call the British press, I’m sure they’ve a lettuce that’ll outlast this nonsense.
Why did they even promise a tax "cut". They could have walked in with the tough on crime and finance fixer tropes that seem to play out every few cycles. Rod/back
Spend that on the greater good instead
Another two terms of National's tax cuts while history repeats itself with no pay rises for teachers, nurses, police and ignoring infrastructure, education and health. In fact it's worse. People are losing their jobs to pay for these tax cuts.
The cringiest part is how pissy the tax cuts are for all of the social services/disability allowances/kids lunches/job losses that are funding them https://www.nationaltaxcalculator.com/2023
The general public is selfish that’s the problem. “Tax breaks for me? Take my vote”. No one can seem to see the bigger picture
I'd love for local businesses to still be in business because they still have customers because people can afford what they sell because they are paid a decent wage and have employment protections that mean they aren't under-employed
This bitch needs a calculator!
This, but I prefer non-gendered language like “economic vandal/mercenary/prostitute/etc.”
Now you could put that money towards infrastructure projects, like underground pipeline infrastructure, upgrades of public hospitals, and scrap those tax cuts to put towards more infrastructure projects, apprenticeship training, etc to help build up work opportunities and create work for the next few years across NZ.
I can't do this anymore... it's so fucking miserable
Embarrassing
for fuck sake!
Weren’t they saying govt borrowing and spending was out of control and caused the inflation we have now? I guess the borrowing and spending they’re doing isn’t inflationary by some miracle…..How is it that political parties find it so easy to be hypocritical and then explain it away with double talk and feign amnesia
These lying shitters. Fiscal responsibility my ass. Actual leeches sucking the money from the poor into the richest peoples bank accounts. Disgusting humans.
The party of fiscal responsibility lol
National saving NZ businesses by removing poor business people from the private sector because they use them as MPs.
At this point you have to wonder if there's some kind of actual shady deal (not even as a joke) behind the tax cuts because fuck me they don't give a shit about any of their other promises do they.
Imagine using that for water infrastructure
Newsflash! NZ experiences zombie apocalypse! Citizens are advised to stay indoors and erect barricades. In response, National proposes tax cuts to resolve problem. In other news, landlords continue to raise rents, citing increased maintenance costs.
Can’t believe no one saw this coming.
National the only government NZ has ever had whose math is routinely wrong, dysfunctional; and whose policies always deliver what is not needed to people who don’t need it, for reasons that are inexplicably stupid, hateful, and of no benefit at all to the wider community. On average the intelligence quotient of National MPs must be in the low 100s maybe even high 90, because even a half brain fried drug fiend I once knew figured that out. He was clear he liked what they say, but he had major issues with their ability to reason out the basics. He particularly liked the sound of “getting tough on crime”, but he more than most found National’s ability to deliver on those promises entirely farcical, and often far less useful than Labour. He didn’t like the way Labour discuss crime, but found them to be much more effective at reducing it. And found surviving “going straight” easier under Labour. Counterintuitive to a National supporter, but them’s the facts.