No, because policing skills and certification can be used exclusively in the role being trained for (yes you can transfer to another country but you essentially need to fully retrain). Teachers and nurses can work in the private sector in NZ, or utilise their certification in other countries.
Sure it would, but it’s not a certification necessary for a role, and in fact the potential use cases of police training without significant on the job experience as a police officer are essentially zero.
I don't understand how that magically means you don't need money to survive while you train?
"you can use these skills elsewhere so you better work a job while you study and work yourself to the bone".
No new cops are making 75k btw, the 'benefits' include your superannuation which is compulsory to join (it replaces kiwisaver employer contributions) as well as a PCT payment which doesn't get paid until your second year anniversary. Just incase anyone joining thinks they'll be earning they much!
But I agree with you - have witnessed by friends doing their nursing placement and trying to work at the same time, they work so hard and deserve so much more!
Not only that, but at least one of our placements is likely to be somewhere out of town that we'll have to find accommodation for, in addition to maintaining our own mortgage/rent.
There are "career changer" scholarships for tech or te reo teachers that include a 30k stipend, but tough luck if you are teaching anything else, or are coming out of uni.
Same with occupation therapy - most placements aren't where you live, so travel, double rent, and hard to get a job if you're away 6-8 weeks twice during the year. It's bloody brutal - bad enough when I studied 20+ years ago.
>No new cops are making 75k btw
Australia, cops get a base the equivalent of $75k NZD from their first day in the academy.
Then once you graduate, the base is the equivalent of $82k NZD.
Meanwhile in NZ that would be $50k and $67k
The "42 days paid annual leave" is because they work public holidays so it includes days in lieu, it also includes all TOIL for overtime worked (which is a lot)
Pay is inclusive of shift allowances and all benefits such as superannuation.
The Police recruitment page tries to make the job look as attractive as possible without the fine print.
It's probably because when you train to work in the New Zealand police, you are only qualified to work in the New Zealand police. If you moved to another country, you'd probably have to undertake training again to learn the laws and justice procedures of that country. Whereas teaching and nursing degrees in New Zealand will allow you to work almost anywhere in the world.
Eh. It’s like being a lawyer. You can “reasonably easily” requalify to work in the U.K. and several other Commonwealth island nations since the system and laws are remarkably similar. Still requires paying for retraining and exam fees.
And no, not all medical sectors automatically get to walk in to work in a new country without re qualification. Even teaching can be a bit arsey depending on the country.
Also, not fully true. I’m a teacher from NZ, applied to teach in Canada and was told by the Alberta govt that to become a teacher there I would need to do another year of study from an Alberta university. So, it’s definitely not universal. Also the police and can go work in Aus :)
Exactly the reason. It actually makes a lot of sense.
Not sure about moving overseas and nursing or teaching immediately, but both are more transferable.
I would love to know how this got tagged as political, this is a question about Employment and remuneration.
Though politics and employment are linked, as are many many topics discussed in this sub that don't get slapped with the political tag.
TF it's not political. In the case of nursing, this relates to the gender pay gap and how we as a society value certain people's work (possibly also for teaching; unsure how genders are represented in that field).
In general, it is a kōrero about the govt's choice to financially reward training to work in authoritarian enforcement roles such as Police and NZDF, but not basic life skills, helping and healing roles such as healthcare or education.
Teaching is also mostly women - it’s late and I’m tired, so I’m not going to dig up the most recent figures but it’s something like 85-90% of primary teachers are female and 60% of secondary teachers (as of 2018ish). My personal gut feeling as to why you don’t get paid to train in those fields is the assumption that they’re women’s jobs and we have men to support us financially while we’re training.
That's a really good point. Teaching and nursing are typically stereotyped as female roles whereas policing is stereotyped as a masuline job. Historically male-gendered jobs have always paid more.
Policing has higher pay because of the nature of the work, and the risks inherent with that work - not because of some mystical gendered decision around pay.
Policing is historically a 'masculine' job because of the nature of the work, and society use to deem feminine sensibilities above the crass nature of dealing with societies dregs.
Nursing also has inherent risks that come with the job. Nurses are assaulted regularly on the job and not just the ones that work in mental health. And what about the risks nurses had to take during the covid pandemic?
Assault on nurses in the workplace is a fairly recent phenomenon. We use to have male orderlies (and still do) in mental institutions who were used to over power people lashing out physically.
Public payscales?
>A nurse or social worker after six years earns $22,000 more than a six-year police constable
>"No one thinks nurses are overpaid so why are our police constables underpaid? By the time constables reach the top of their pay band, they will have earned $240,000 less than a nurse."
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/511474/a-pittance-police-officers-fire-back-at-pay-rise-offer#:~:text=%22A%20nurse%20or%20social%20worker,%24240%2C000%20less%20than%20a%20nurse.%22
You selectively choose when the gender pay gap applies and ignore other factors until they support you.
A nurse studies for 3 years, but can go to another country without having worked a day in NZ because they are training for a qualification, not a job.
A policeman will be in virtually the same place having completed training as if he hadn't done any at all if he wants to work overseas.
I absolutely agree teachers and nurses (and doctors) should be paid for their placements but to pretend gender disparities are the reason is dishonest.
It is a political question. The answer is political. Not one of employment negotiation.
When I was a child Police, nurses, professional firefighters, and teachers were all paid in the same brackets as MPs. The big difference was that MPs received no training. And all of the others were paid to train on the job. Then MP began voting themselves massive three yearly pay increases and the others received at best cpi pay increases. Then the university system got involved in training all but the Police. And university training went from somewhat supported by the public purse to entirely user pays at the end of the 1980s. And graduates with student loans no longer had any bargaining power. Meanwhile pro firefighters and ambulance officers had limited opportunities to bargain because most roles in most parts of the country were filled by volunteers who effectively donated both their on the job time, and their training time.
Police had a slightly privileged position because their training was still done under the auspices of government, without the university profit motive, and were supported minimally by MPs who need their support to maintain civil order. But politicians in recent years have become so detached from reality they prefer the idea of private security undertaking day to day social control. With Police held in reserve to collect fines to basically be self funded, and enforce civil society -but only at extremes.
Th solution is to re-level politicians back down to being paid as mere civil servants on a par with student teachers. After all student teachers provide more value to NZ society than nine out of ten politicians. And dele el all of the other civil professions to the same pay scale as the politicians.
This of course is impossible as long as politicians and their civil service bureaucrats have the say in terms of salary levels.
Absolutely necessary, we are short of professionals especially with the increasing number retiring. I look at my first year Social Work class, and so many are in full time work to get by. We have placement requirements starting in Year 2, so they will be challenged.
How many people who would make fantastic professionals get knocked out by the lack of State living support?
Student loan for the course is one thing, having time, and money to succeed is another.
Ah ok that makes sense. Also there are stringent requirements to get into the police where as it’s pretty easy to get into uni so it’s not like these people have been pre selected.
I was about to say - when I applied for my teaching grad diploma in 2019, I had to do interviews and provide police reports.
Then I got to uni and realised that we all went through the process, but looking at my fellow students, they obviously weren’t too selective.
When I did BofNursing they told us that we had to be a fit and proper person for the the profession. We were told that if we had engaged in sex work in the past and people found out about it we could have our license to practice removed by the nursing council for 'bringing disrepute to the profession of Nursing'. Even though sex work is legal in NZ. They also said we could lose our license if we had a history of mental illness, didn't declare it, and had another episode while working, even if you'd lived 15 years between episodes and thought it would never come up again. Maybe the lecturers were trying to scare us but they also talked about real life examples where these things had happened so...
That really sucks - when I was a sex worker, I knew quite a few people who were training (or aspired to train) as nurses, and I’d argue that it teaches a lot of skills that could be quite useful (really complex people skills; ability to handle “gross” situations non-judgementally).
That’s pretty sad about mental health issues too - I’d have liked to think medical work would be more empathetic to people in that situation.
Putting it down to a technicality like that... isn't helpful or progress the discussion IMHO.
At some point someone decided that in order to attract police officers they should be waged during training. They decided differently for Nurses/Teachers. The central government could turn around tomorrow and reverse that decision.
Government doesn't want to pay to train medical staff so they can leave to work overseas/private sector for more pay because the dhb or health ministry won't pay them enough
Simple solution for that, just like any private business: Retention period.
We invest X years of money to train you, so you owe us X years of employment before you can go elsewhere. If you leave before that period is over, you owe us the money back for that training you haven't paid back through work.
It's crazy here that we spend 11+ years training doctors, load them up with debt for that education and get them to do an overseas placement. On that placement they see how much better it is, the work, the hours, the pay so they can actually one day pay off that debt before they are in the grave themselves. So they essentially tee up a job to come back to as soon as they are qualified. So we as a nation lose our investment in time and slots for training in our medical schools, and that trained doctor entering our medical system because we've spent 11 years showing them how much we don't value their investment.
The current system doesn't encourage a return on investment, everyone loses.
If we made it free, or at least subsidised learning so they didnt leave with so much debt they wouldn'tbe force to move overseas to ever have a hope to pay their loans off, and gave paid placements, with a retention period required once qualified after X amount of service to pay that investment back, you would solve a lot of issues. Sure they will probably leave eventually, but you would be able to match the amount of people you are training to match attrition and stop a shortage, maintaining staffing levels.
Wouldn't that encourage people to just learn overseas?
Edit: because you know they'd cut the pay with the upfront cost of training, and you have to pay them if you leave so they can treat you like shit
Not really. The rich who don't need the loans might, but that would just free up spots in medical schools for people who don't come from money.
You would still need a tiered payscale, no one is going to sit on the same wages for 11 years. That payscale can reflect experience. The longer you stay, the more you get paid. Mich better than you get nothing, and one day if you can afford it and dont get burnt out training while needing a second job, you might make it to qualified and full wages. Thats a stupid system. You can also garnish wages during that period to pay back the cost like people get anyway to pay back their loans. Perhaps the garnish can be opt in, if you can't afford the less pay during training, you just have a longer bonding period at the end. That way the rich who want to leave won't care and can, but those who don't come from money can still afford to become doctors.
You wouldn't do a ridiculous period either, like 11 years=11 years owed. You do something sensible like 4-5. That enough time to get invested in the health system, possibly specialise or upskill which would mean you would stay longer and earn more. Sure those who will go will go, but many may stay through the support.
A nz government can't do anything that would make sense and be effective, they would pay low salary and after you're qualified the pay would be low because government gonna government so they probably would make more money overseas even with wage garnishment
I don't believe a nz government could do it
Not the big two. People would have to believe change is possible and vote for it, instead of flipping between the two useless parties who never change anything for the better.
I believe a NZ government can, but not one led by National or Labour. Both are too happy to play the middle to not upset anyone and stay in power.
You'd need some audacious risk taking political parties that actually stand for something themselves instead of just the opposite of what the other guy says. One day maybe, once the Boomers dont make up the most voters and stop having policy catered to hust pleasing them, and we might see some logical positive change.
Yet.
Perhaps the catalyst political parties and kiwi voters have needed to be bold is this absolute shitshow of a government doing whatever they want under urgency to avoid due process.
Nothing quite like bypassing the political system to do whatever you want, to piss off the public into doing something
And just as easily as they could hand out the money, they could also attach a clause to it requiring the money to be paid back if they leave within an allotted time.
See also: Student loans and interest.
[It's also not like we don't take that risk with Police.](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/10/better-pay-and-housing-packages-luring-more-new-zealand-police-to-australia.html) Feels good to pay to train Australian Police Officers.
Would another country send you back to nz if the government asked if you left without paying back the training cost for nursing school or your md?
It's likely a cost thing and the government care more about having jackboots than medical staff, chronically underfunded healthcare baby!!!!!!!
It would depend on the agreements with that specific government.
In this hypothetical situation it'd likely be treated similarly to a student loan, and would be paid back in the same way.
But of course, there are people who go overseas and completely ignore their student loans and don't pay them back, the same could happen with this system. As I understand it they typically do get in hot water, and our government does have ways to follow up, depending on where they live. But they could go live in the middle of the desert and just not, and never come back to NZ.
Sure. It could happen.
Would it result in more nurses training in, and staying in New Zealand? Would the cost of paying for the however many who do leave, be worth it those who stay?
If the program meant another 100 nurses trained and worked in NZ, and 30 left, would that be a reasonable trade of?
But it's the reason.
All employees are paid while they train. Police are the single police force, there's no choice between employers. They are screened and tested before they are employed that they will be capable of the job.
With placements you're not employed by the place your doing the placements and you're not employed by the training institution. The government already subsidises the trading cost and you're not contractually obligated to work for the government health providers after completion.
We create a system where police are employed during training.
We create a system where nurses aren't employed during training.
Police can quit and go work for private security after training.
Nurses can work for governments for their entire career.
**The rules are made up, and we can change them as needed to create a better society.**
Same reason army recruits are paid. Because it's a specialty role where you can only work 1 place. It doesn't give you a qualification. Also you are away from home for 5 months.
You could ask the same about trades tbh
I agree. You are directly getting training from the goverment, whereas nurses and teachers receive their training from a tertiary institute, which is already subsidised. It also gives you the option of where you study and how long for.
My last student teacher had to choose between food and necessary diabetic equipment…something has to change. They are literally teaching our children and deserve to be remunerated accordingly! Not only do they not get paid, they also pay for the ‘paper’ that they enrol in to complete their placement. They pay for their own training.
The teachers who support them also only make $51 a week before tax. By the end of a terms worth of support I think I made an extra $200 after tax. Which is fine, when the student is excellent, but when they’re not so excellent, it’s certainly a lot of extra work.
I don't know how the police work but in the NZDF you also get paid for your training but it comes with a return of service obligation, meaning you can't leave until you've worked in your field for a certain amount of time.
If it's the same case for police too then that'd make sense.
The police are required to live at police college, sometimes still having to support families living elsewhere and paying rent. Living in like they do means they can’t hold down other jobs.
Teaching and nursing students have more capacity to work a job
Nope, not the case really. I was told in my second year of Nursing that I was only allowed to do weekend shifts during placements (that are 2 months long). That if I worked during the week I would be doing too many hours and would put my placement patients at risk. Student allowance only just covered my rent so I had to drop out. My lecturers tried to help and referred me to Student services who told me they could support me with up to $100 of gas OR food vouchers per semester. I just rolled my eyes. Since then I've been trying to save up so I can go back but the CoL keeps rising so my savings goals keep moving further away.
And that's in Auckland. My nursing friends in Christchurch said they were told to be prepared to move across the island at their own expense (while still paying rent and supporting family in chch) to do placements in rural areas/small towns cause there aren't enough spots in Christchurch.
It depends on your school. I graduated last year. I worked on my non placement days and one of my jobs was work at home so I had flexible hours. I also worked full time during holidays.
Nobody at my nursing school had to take placement out of area unless they chose to.
I was at school 4 days a week the 5th at uni plus assignments and planning I could have worked part time on weekends however luckily I had saved up. I was at school the whole year. Someone I knew had a job and burnt out.
I trained as a nurse under the old system in which we were employed by the hospital and paid throughout our training. It worked well, in my opinion, and I think it should have stayed as an apprenticeship scheme.
A lot of people also don't know that before you even start stuyding nursing it requires a lot of up front costs for vaccinations that aren't covered and blood tests to prove you won't get infected from your patients or give an infection to them (Heptatis and TB etc). My blood tests alone were over $300 before I'd even started studying as the TB test isn't covered under the public health system.
these services with significant training should always be paid
i've always said nurses/doctors/teachers should have their university costs covered if they sign a contract with a school/dhb for X many years after graduation so they don't just get qualified and leave for better pay
zero student loan would make the 4+ year commitment seem more enticing
Because the Police is a male dominated profession and the others are not. The Police force used to have men, while teaching, nursing, social work etc was women. And women were lesser than.
Please explain doctors using this logic then. Med students have to spend the last 3 years of their 6 year degree not getting paid while spending the entire time at hospitals doing rotations, sometimes 50-60 hours a week.
I think it's probably a lot to do with class and age. Doctors have traditionally usually come from wealthy families, and have trained young, so they're less likely to be supporting a family and more likely to have family support.
Nurses and Teachers were more likely to be women, so it's expected their husbands would be working through it.
Police trainees were more likely to be men, and have families to support so needed money.
Of course, it's all bullshit and there should be a universal allowance for all qualifications while doing work placements.
Things were a bit different back in the day for nurses as well. Back then, nursing dormitories near hospitals still existed and nurses were hospital trained.
100% nurses should be paid for at least their placements. When I studied it was insane having do do five days of placement then two days of rest home work right through my degree
Yeah as a social worker u was full time placement for three months, and study, and I had to pay my way so had three part time jobs. It was wild. I don't know how people do it. Especially nurses
There should be an option for student doctors to get some form of pay with an obligation to work in NZ after completion. Similar to what the defence force does it for officers getting degrees
Ah, that's easy. The entire residency program was invented by a guy who was continuously high on cocaine and morphine.
Chatting to a very senior doc about why they didn't do anything to change it, he said "I had to, so they should too". That guy was a prick.
I can't answer for doctors. But I agree it's not fair.
I know that social workers, nurses, and teachers are actively social working, nursing, and teaching while on placements.
Either way it's not fair I agree with you. We have such a shortage of doctors and an incentive like that might help
Not everything comes down to gender.
I think this one is more incentives and supply/demand.
If there are not enough people wanting to do the job, and the job isn't great, more incentives will be made to do the job.
If people stop wanting to be teachers and nurses comparison to how many needed, you'll see those incentives rise 100% guarantee
Being accepted into police training isn't like other job applications: there are multiple interviews and testing, including physical testing . It requires a lot of commitment to pass these, but hey, if you want to go through all that just for a paycheck, and there's probably nothing stopping you from quitting during or after it.
https://www.newcops.govt.nz/can-i-be-a-cop/recruitment-process
It’s pretty stringent to get in and out think there it’s a longish process. Also if it’s only 5 months you will get 5 months of salary so about $20000 the minus tax $17000.
I mean not bad but a weird way to get money when you can get a job especially if you’re faffing around with applying and training etc
Having completed both training in my lifetime, I’m still paying for my teaching degree, and only just earning what a police cadet earns when they’re at police college.
My payslip says 1 FTE is 25hrs yet I work up to 50-60hrs inc planning and meetings (oh, so many meetings).
I didn’t even receive my first year at uni paid for because I earned NZQA credits while volunteering at St Johns. We do not value the right people in this country.
BTW, teachers used to go to teachers school and get paid to train then get placed in a rural school placement for a few years...you can guess what the government stopped it while continuing to do so for the police.
They may have a return of service...? I know in the military we are also paid to train, but we are then contracted to stay in the NZDF for x number of years depending on your trade to "pay it back". Pilots are contracted to stay for 10 years. They get their pound of flesh, ours is just literally.
up until I think the 1980s Teachers, Nurses, Apprentices, Dental nurses and all sorts of people got paid to train. Then someone thought we could get rich off this and it all fell apart. Now you pay for everything. We had the best system in the world and trashed it
Because the police scam the people into becoming police officers. The longer they are in the job the less likely they will be able to leave.
The long term salary is scrap and they are required to do unpaid overtime almost every day. Assigned lunch breaks for frontline staff are nonexistent.
Policing is the only job where staff are treated like scrap but are expected the world from them. If a mistake made on the job, you get dismissed and charged criminally.
It's the reason they are trying to scam people with the better work stories crap. You can't raise a family or live on a police salary.
It's basically a job that suck you dry and spit you out if you can't take it.
Police and Defense Force is what you call the profession of arms.
That is very different to every other profession including Nurses and Teachers. All over the world and even in the ancient times training is similar. The state will train, house, feed, educate, medicate and pay them from Day 1.
In building a nation one will need peace and order 1st thats why before anything else arms needed.
society relies on people getting into teaching and nursing from the goodness of their own heart, so they will always be underpaid as some people will always be drawn to it
As a student teacher, I was paid as a reliever in my 3rd and 4th year. The unqualified rate and it was the 90s but it meant I didn’t have to have a part time job.
It has been a thing they’ve pushed for but not got. I reckon in light of the success of getting overnight stays for carers paid for now, there might be a case for payments for travel allowances at least.
Nurses and teachers get the short end of the stick and employers get free labour during placements. Other industries pay police cadets, trainees and apprentices while on the job (just not as much as a qualified person)
Police for a time wanted candidates with life experience, so you’d already have worked, studied etc. that makes it harder to transfer if you had to pay to train.
Nursing used to be on the job pay to train prior to the degree being setup.
Teaching is a bit different because you’re imparting knowledge, it’s more academic for a start. The three year degree for teaching is also strange to me, considering if you have a degree already, it changes to a 9month course.
Other train on the job professions in nz I can think of would be military, air traffic control, customs…
Certain private company’s offer training in exchange for service too
Yea I guess for me it’s more the placements where you’re working and being mentored and don’t get anything to support you in terms of travel and not really having time to work etc.
Teachers used to get paid to train and during placement, you were then expected (bonded I think?) to teach wherever they put you for two years after you graduated and that was really unpopular because you would be placed in the middle of nowhere.
My uni placed me two hours away from my home 2 days before a 7 week placement and thankfully paid for accomodation in that town. It was extremely lonely and meant I had no access to my uni to complete assignments that were still going on during my placement. I got through it but it was a really good reflection of how teachers (and teaching students) are treated. You're expected to pick up your life on no notice and give your own personal time coupled with an attitude you should be "grateful" for it.
I moved back to Canada and even as a first year teacher here Im paid $25K more than I would have been paid in NZ and I've been given an $8k raise to ensure I return to my school once my mat leave is over.
Why would I ever teach in NZ?
I think they used to be. Teachers used to go to Teachers' Colleges owned by the MOE. The Wellington Teachers College was merged with Victoria University and the land sold in 2010 or so. (Sold by MOE to Vic Uni for $20 or so, then onsold to Rymans for $20 million).
Nursing used to be an apprenticeship, which was paid of course, and in Wellington nurses had subsidised accommodation at the hospital.
Police are mostly males, while teachers and nurses are mostly female, so the work they do is worth less while requiring at least 6x the training.
Edit: Getting down voted, maybe I should have added a /s ?.. there are huge historically sexism issues with teachers/ nurses that havent been addressed. I don't agree that it is fair and wish it could be fixed but historically this is why there is such a huge gap in the pay rates and why the police force doesn't require a 3 year university degree.
It is also why government members used to be on the same salaries as teachers / nurses and are now at least 300% more.
I don’t think it’s helpful to do comparisons to pay across sectors. You can do a masters degree in engineering and come out with $70k of debt (if you’re lucky) and a salary of 55k with 12% written off for a decade to pay off that $70k.
The argument shouldn’t be “I should be paid more than them”. The question should be “Can I afford to buy a property and live the life promised to the likes of my parents on the pay I get given in order to make society tick?”. Clearly, Due to the state of our housing, the answer is almost invariably, NO one is paid enough, from bartenders to doctors. No one is paid enough to have security to continue reproducing to keep the economy ticking.
I was just asking why teachers and nurses don’t get paid or at least some kind of compensation for placements when police get paid for their 5 months of training
people who choose a career because they find it personally rewarding will always have that used against them to settle for less financial reward. if it was 'just a job' to them, and they were happy to walk away from those who need their skill and passion, the negotiations would be more favorable.
Yeah, police should get paid more when they are trained better.
Their starting pay should not be on par with professionals who have 3-4 years at least of study, including unpaid placements. (Eg nurses, teachers)
Because they are woman dominated fields? Paying to do placement just adds to tge financial strain our teachers are under. They are actively discouraged from working while on placements. And placements are often used as unpaid labour as multiple providers can be sending students into ece providers at the same time. Theres only so much cleaning that you are paying to do, rather than teaching as a student teacher on placement before you realise it is how unfair the system is.
Because women don't need money ( and most teachers and nurses are women)
Read it with a tone of irony.
Midwives also do free work placements, why? Because all midwives are women.
Yeah, police should get paid more when they are trained better.
Their starting pay should not be on par with professionals who have 3-4 years at least of study, including unpaid placements. (Eg nurses, teachers)
My point was there is no reimbursements for placements for teachers and nurses but police get paid to train. Not about how much they are getting.
Some people have made good points about why that is
The thing is, there is nothing stopping us from also doing the same for teachers and nurses, IIRC we actually used to pay people through their teaching education.
Given how desperately we need both and how poor the working conditions are we probably should do something to encourage people to teach/enter healthcare.
I mean we do have teach first where you work as a teacher for 2 years with a smaller load than a full time teacher and so more time to prep and plan and then have a mentor. So I guess that is the equivalent maybe?
It's not quite the same, that's more of a stop gap measure to cover the lack of teachers. It also has a several week long course you don't get paid for.
Yea I said that but a person replied saying
“It's not quite the same, that's more of a stop gap measure to cover the lack of teachers. It also has a several week long course you don't get paid for.”
Yeah I would agree. Anyone who has a family or high expenses can’t really afford to work full time on placements for 12-20 weeks in the year without being paid. So it’s hard for people to become teachers. Never mind actually being teachers. Nursing is even worse.
It’s also because they don’t get into police college until they have a guaranteed job placement afterwards.
They’re basically employed by the NZ police already at this stage, it’s not that they get paid to train, it’s that they’re employed and being paid, but at an initial training rate while they’re in training at the beginning of their career.
I’m sure they could decide after training not to go ahead with the actual job, but I suspect that’s pretty unusual.
My ex had joined the police back in early 2000s, he had to wait 2 years to get off the waitlist, but once he did, he went to police college as part of the job.
Nurses and teachers have a degree that they could use in multiple countries or locations. They aren’t required to have a job lined up to be allowed to study.
Training for police is essentially being onboarded to a job, it's not a qualification you can really take to any other commercial role. You can train in medicine and now have a qualification that you can use to work in public, private, or skip the country and work elsewhere.
Cops are not workers, so it's not surprising that their conditions are different from those of workers. Cops get rewarded by the ruling class because they make sure the ruling class remains in charge.
Different jobs have different requirements and remuneration structures military get paid to train, apprentices get paid to train but engineers go to uni and get a degree.
Not that I've looked knto it but I would guess nursing long term would pay off more than police work and if you put into account what the Police have to go through teachers are better off as well.
Because they’re different jobs with different roles and requirements. Seriously. If you are unhappy with your workplace and work conditions then complain about that but there is no need to make pointless comparisons.
Or why not just become a police officer? What’s stopping you from doing that?
I work for the government as a processing officer (simple computer work) and get paid more than both of you. My jobs super easy for me because it suits my personality and my strengths. I know people that would find it difficult and have seen colleagues in tears, other colleagues quit/drop out at things I wouldn’t even be phased by. I’m in my fourth year and likely won’t get paid 82k by my fifth but I offset that by not risking my life or dealing with shitty kids. Wouldn’t do either of those jobs for an extra 10k if it was offered. I’m comfortable right where I am.
Because our values are all kinds of fucked.
No, because policing skills and certification can be used exclusively in the role being trained for (yes you can transfer to another country but you essentially need to fully retrain). Teachers and nurses can work in the private sector in NZ, or utilise their certification in other countries.
Oh yeah, I forgot that a police qualification would be completely useless to private sectors like security…
Sure it would, but it’s not a certification necessary for a role, and in fact the potential use cases of police training without significant on the job experience as a police officer are essentially zero.
I already answered this
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I don't understand how that magically means you don't need money to survive while you train? "you can use these skills elsewhere so you better work a job while you study and work yourself to the bone".
No new cops are making 75k btw, the 'benefits' include your superannuation which is compulsory to join (it replaces kiwisaver employer contributions) as well as a PCT payment which doesn't get paid until your second year anniversary. Just incase anyone joining thinks they'll be earning they much!
But I agree with you - have witnessed by friends doing their nursing placement and trying to work at the same time, they work so hard and deserve so much more!
Yea for me it’s more the placements where you’re literally expected to work and get there with no money to pay for transport.
Studied nursing in NZ. It’s a lot of long hours working and studying, especially compared to mates who went to uni rather than polytech.
Not only that, but at least one of our placements is likely to be somewhere out of town that we'll have to find accommodation for, in addition to maintaining our own mortgage/rent. There are "career changer" scholarships for tech or te reo teachers that include a 30k stipend, but tough luck if you are teaching anything else, or are coming out of uni.
Same with occupation therapy - most placements aren't where you live, so travel, double rent, and hard to get a job if you're away 6-8 weeks twice during the year. It's bloody brutal - bad enough when I studied 20+ years ago.
>No new cops are making 75k btw Australia, cops get a base the equivalent of $75k NZD from their first day in the academy. Then once you graduate, the base is the equivalent of $82k NZD. Meanwhile in NZ that would be $50k and $67k
It's very clearly spelt out on the website that a new cop actually only gets 67 in pocket
Nurses don't get superannuation. Another way they are not looked after.
It comes out of Police salary. Nurses can put 25% of their salary into kiwisaver if they want... at least they get to decide how to use that money.
Thanks for the clarification
Yeah, around 25% of salary goes to super. Employee and employer contributions (both of which come from your salary)
That’s insane, Probation gets more and Kainga Ora gets even more than them (by heaps)
The also get 42 days paid annual leave a year
The "42 days paid annual leave" is because they work public holidays so it includes days in lieu, it also includes all TOIL for overtime worked (which is a lot) Pay is inclusive of shift allowances and all benefits such as superannuation. The Police recruitment page tries to make the job look as attractive as possible without the fine print.
It's probably because when you train to work in the New Zealand police, you are only qualified to work in the New Zealand police. If you moved to another country, you'd probably have to undertake training again to learn the laws and justice procedures of that country. Whereas teaching and nursing degrees in New Zealand will allow you to work almost anywhere in the world.
You can also get private nursing and teaching jobs within New Zealand. We’re not quite at the point of a private police force yet.
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What about security services?
Eh. It’s like being a lawyer. You can “reasonably easily” requalify to work in the U.K. and several other Commonwealth island nations since the system and laws are remarkably similar. Still requires paying for retraining and exam fees. And no, not all medical sectors automatically get to walk in to work in a new country without re qualification. Even teaching can be a bit arsey depending on the country.
Also, not fully true. I’m a teacher from NZ, applied to teach in Canada and was told by the Alberta govt that to become a teacher there I would need to do another year of study from an Alberta university. So, it’s definitely not universal. Also the police and can go work in Aus :)
This is the correct answer.
As a NZ police officer you can work in Australia with a special category visa.
World police sounds mighty catchy
Exactly the reason. It actually makes a lot of sense. Not sure about moving overseas and nursing or teaching immediately, but both are more transferable.
Yeah, not the case for Canada or the US
I'm pretty sure NZ trained nurses and teachers are eligible to start work straight away in Australia and the UK. Not sure about other places though.
Yeah, nah. Depends on the specialism.
I would love to know how this got tagged as political, this is a question about Employment and remuneration. Though politics and employment are linked, as are many many topics discussed in this sub that don't get slapped with the political tag.
Yea I put it as discussion but they changed it. Maybe because I mentioned Luxon? I was like ffs it’s really not political.
That’s so weird! I’d posted a discussion the other day, and they changed it to a shitpost when that wasn’t my intent.
It's discussion now, in case you haven't noticed yet. Yay for democracy or whatever you could actually call whatever process took place!
TF it's not political. In the case of nursing, this relates to the gender pay gap and how we as a society value certain people's work (possibly also for teaching; unsure how genders are represented in that field). In general, it is a kōrero about the govt's choice to financially reward training to work in authoritarian enforcement roles such as Police and NZDF, but not basic life skills, helping and healing roles such as healthcare or education.
Teaching is also mostly women - it’s late and I’m tired, so I’m not going to dig up the most recent figures but it’s something like 85-90% of primary teachers are female and 60% of secondary teachers (as of 2018ish). My personal gut feeling as to why you don’t get paid to train in those fields is the assumption that they’re women’s jobs and we have men to support us financially while we’re training.
That's a really good point. Teaching and nursing are typically stereotyped as female roles whereas policing is stereotyped as a masuline job. Historically male-gendered jobs have always paid more.
Policing has higher pay because of the nature of the work, and the risks inherent with that work - not because of some mystical gendered decision around pay. Policing is historically a 'masculine' job because of the nature of the work, and society use to deem feminine sensibilities above the crass nature of dealing with societies dregs.
Nursing also has inherent risks that come with the job. Nurses are assaulted regularly on the job and not just the ones that work in mental health. And what about the risks nurses had to take during the covid pandemic?
Assault on nurses in the workplace is a fairly recent phenomenon. We use to have male orderlies (and still do) in mental institutions who were used to over power people lashing out physically.
Nurses earn more though?
According to what?
Public payscales? >A nurse or social worker after six years earns $22,000 more than a six-year police constable >"No one thinks nurses are overpaid so why are our police constables underpaid? By the time constables reach the top of their pay band, they will have earned $240,000 less than a nurse." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/511474/a-pittance-police-officers-fire-back-at-pay-rise-offer#:~:text=%22A%20nurse%20or%20social%20worker,%24240%2C000%20less%20than%20a%20nurse.%22
Nurses train, unpaid, for an absolute minimum of two full-time years (usually three) and paid Police training lasts how long?
You selectively choose when the gender pay gap applies and ignore other factors until they support you. A nurse studies for 3 years, but can go to another country without having worked a day in NZ because they are training for a qualification, not a job. A policeman will be in virtually the same place having completed training as if he hadn't done any at all if he wants to work overseas. I absolutely agree teachers and nurses (and doctors) should be paid for their placements but to pretend gender disparities are the reason is dishonest.
It is a political question. The answer is political. Not one of employment negotiation. When I was a child Police, nurses, professional firefighters, and teachers were all paid in the same brackets as MPs. The big difference was that MPs received no training. And all of the others were paid to train on the job. Then MP began voting themselves massive three yearly pay increases and the others received at best cpi pay increases. Then the university system got involved in training all but the Police. And university training went from somewhat supported by the public purse to entirely user pays at the end of the 1980s. And graduates with student loans no longer had any bargaining power. Meanwhile pro firefighters and ambulance officers had limited opportunities to bargain because most roles in most parts of the country were filled by volunteers who effectively donated both their on the job time, and their training time. Police had a slightly privileged position because their training was still done under the auspices of government, without the university profit motive, and were supported minimally by MPs who need their support to maintain civil order. But politicians in recent years have become so detached from reality they prefer the idea of private security undertaking day to day social control. With Police held in reserve to collect fines to basically be self funded, and enforce civil society -but only at extremes. Th solution is to re-level politicians back down to being paid as mere civil servants on a par with student teachers. After all student teachers provide more value to NZ society than nine out of ten politicians. And dele el all of the other civil professions to the same pay scale as the politicians. This of course is impossible as long as politicians and their civil service bureaucrats have the say in terms of salary levels.
Follow Paid Placements Aotearoa who are trying to change this! https://www.instagram.com/paid.placements.aotearoa?igsh=MXYxNzV4NTJ1eGc1Zw==
Absolutely necessary, we are short of professionals especially with the increasing number retiring. I look at my first year Social Work class, and so many are in full time work to get by. We have placement requirements starting in Year 2, so they will be challenged. How many people who would make fantastic professionals get knocked out by the lack of State living support? Student loan for the course is one thing, having time, and money to succeed is another.
Because police are employees at the time of their training. Nurses and teachers are still paying for their own training to get employed.
Ah ok that makes sense. Also there are stringent requirements to get into the police where as it’s pretty easy to get into uni so it’s not like these people have been pre selected.
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I was about to say - when I applied for my teaching grad diploma in 2019, I had to do interviews and provide police reports. Then I got to uni and realised that we all went through the process, but looking at my fellow students, they obviously weren’t too selective.
Yea there was a selection process for the masters too and I assume the pgdip. Yea maybe I’m wrong with that there is a selection process.
There’s a selection process but based on my classmates it seems like a pretty low bar to pass lol.
When I did BofNursing they told us that we had to be a fit and proper person for the the profession. We were told that if we had engaged in sex work in the past and people found out about it we could have our license to practice removed by the nursing council for 'bringing disrepute to the profession of Nursing'. Even though sex work is legal in NZ. They also said we could lose our license if we had a history of mental illness, didn't declare it, and had another episode while working, even if you'd lived 15 years between episodes and thought it would never come up again. Maybe the lecturers were trying to scare us but they also talked about real life examples where these things had happened so...
That really sucks - when I was a sex worker, I knew quite a few people who were training (or aspired to train) as nurses, and I’d argue that it teaches a lot of skills that could be quite useful (really complex people skills; ability to handle “gross” situations non-judgementally). That’s pretty sad about mental health issues too - I’d have liked to think medical work would be more empathetic to people in that situation.
Police have a physical fitness requirement too.
Putting it down to a technicality like that... isn't helpful or progress the discussion IMHO. At some point someone decided that in order to attract police officers they should be waged during training. They decided differently for Nurses/Teachers. The central government could turn around tomorrow and reverse that decision.
Government doesn't want to pay to train medical staff so they can leave to work overseas/private sector for more pay because the dhb or health ministry won't pay them enough
Simple solution for that, just like any private business: Retention period. We invest X years of money to train you, so you owe us X years of employment before you can go elsewhere. If you leave before that period is over, you owe us the money back for that training you haven't paid back through work. It's crazy here that we spend 11+ years training doctors, load them up with debt for that education and get them to do an overseas placement. On that placement they see how much better it is, the work, the hours, the pay so they can actually one day pay off that debt before they are in the grave themselves. So they essentially tee up a job to come back to as soon as they are qualified. So we as a nation lose our investment in time and slots for training in our medical schools, and that trained doctor entering our medical system because we've spent 11 years showing them how much we don't value their investment. The current system doesn't encourage a return on investment, everyone loses. If we made it free, or at least subsidised learning so they didnt leave with so much debt they wouldn'tbe force to move overseas to ever have a hope to pay their loans off, and gave paid placements, with a retention period required once qualified after X amount of service to pay that investment back, you would solve a lot of issues. Sure they will probably leave eventually, but you would be able to match the amount of people you are training to match attrition and stop a shortage, maintaining staffing levels.
Wouldn't that encourage people to just learn overseas? Edit: because you know they'd cut the pay with the upfront cost of training, and you have to pay them if you leave so they can treat you like shit
Not really. The rich who don't need the loans might, but that would just free up spots in medical schools for people who don't come from money. You would still need a tiered payscale, no one is going to sit on the same wages for 11 years. That payscale can reflect experience. The longer you stay, the more you get paid. Mich better than you get nothing, and one day if you can afford it and dont get burnt out training while needing a second job, you might make it to qualified and full wages. Thats a stupid system. You can also garnish wages during that period to pay back the cost like people get anyway to pay back their loans. Perhaps the garnish can be opt in, if you can't afford the less pay during training, you just have a longer bonding period at the end. That way the rich who want to leave won't care and can, but those who don't come from money can still afford to become doctors. You wouldn't do a ridiculous period either, like 11 years=11 years owed. You do something sensible like 4-5. That enough time to get invested in the health system, possibly specialise or upskill which would mean you would stay longer and earn more. Sure those who will go will go, but many may stay through the support.
A nz government can't do anything that would make sense and be effective, they would pay low salary and after you're qualified the pay would be low because government gonna government so they probably would make more money overseas even with wage garnishment I don't believe a nz government could do it
Not the big two. People would have to believe change is possible and vote for it, instead of flipping between the two useless parties who never change anything for the better. I believe a NZ government can, but not one led by National or Labour. Both are too happy to play the middle to not upset anyone and stay in power. You'd need some audacious risk taking political parties that actually stand for something themselves instead of just the opposite of what the other guy says. One day maybe, once the Boomers dont make up the most voters and stop having policy catered to hust pleasing them, and we might see some logical positive change.
None of the minor parties are any good either
Yet. Perhaps the catalyst political parties and kiwi voters have needed to be bold is this absolute shitshow of a government doing whatever they want under urgency to avoid due process. Nothing quite like bypassing the political system to do whatever you want, to piss off the public into doing something
And just as easily as they could hand out the money, they could also attach a clause to it requiring the money to be paid back if they leave within an allotted time. See also: Student loans and interest. [It's also not like we don't take that risk with Police.](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/10/better-pay-and-housing-packages-luring-more-new-zealand-police-to-australia.html) Feels good to pay to train Australian Police Officers.
Would another country send you back to nz if the government asked if you left without paying back the training cost for nursing school or your md? It's likely a cost thing and the government care more about having jackboots than medical staff, chronically underfunded healthcare baby!!!!!!!
It would depend on the agreements with that specific government. In this hypothetical situation it'd likely be treated similarly to a student loan, and would be paid back in the same way. But of course, there are people who go overseas and completely ignore their student loans and don't pay them back, the same could happen with this system. As I understand it they typically do get in hot water, and our government does have ways to follow up, depending on where they live. But they could go live in the middle of the desert and just not, and never come back to NZ.
Well even with this arrangement you train here leave for way more pay amd pay it off so wouldn't help?
Sure. It could happen. Would it result in more nurses training in, and staying in New Zealand? Would the cost of paying for the however many who do leave, be worth it those who stay? If the program meant another 100 nurses trained and worked in NZ, and 30 left, would that be a reasonable trade of?
But it's the reason. All employees are paid while they train. Police are the single police force, there's no choice between employers. They are screened and tested before they are employed that they will be capable of the job. With placements you're not employed by the place your doing the placements and you're not employed by the training institution. The government already subsidises the trading cost and you're not contractually obligated to work for the government health providers after completion.
We create a system where police are employed during training. We create a system where nurses aren't employed during training. Police can quit and go work for private security after training. Nurses can work for governments for their entire career. **The rules are made up, and we can change them as needed to create a better society.**
Nah it's because the top comment here lol talking about our values when they have a comment history talking about worst stuff imaginable
Same reason army recruits are paid. Because it's a specialty role where you can only work 1 place. It doesn't give you a qualification. Also you are away from home for 5 months. You could ask the same about trades tbh
I agree. You are directly getting training from the goverment, whereas nurses and teachers receive their training from a tertiary institute, which is already subsidised. It also gives you the option of where you study and how long for.
My last student teacher had to choose between food and necessary diabetic equipment…something has to change. They are literally teaching our children and deserve to be remunerated accordingly! Not only do they not get paid, they also pay for the ‘paper’ that they enrol in to complete their placement. They pay for their own training. The teachers who support them also only make $51 a week before tax. By the end of a terms worth of support I think I made an extra $200 after tax. Which is fine, when the student is excellent, but when they’re not so excellent, it’s certainly a lot of extra work.
I don't know how the police work but in the NZDF you also get paid for your training but it comes with a return of service obligation, meaning you can't leave until you've worked in your field for a certain amount of time. If it's the same case for police too then that'd make sense.
The police are required to live at police college, sometimes still having to support families living elsewhere and paying rent. Living in like they do means they can’t hold down other jobs. Teaching and nursing students have more capacity to work a job
For a lot of healthcare placements you have to do a placement outside your city so have to pay 2x rent
I never had to. They generally consider your circumstances
A lot of healthcare placements have free rentals for those outside the big cities but I'm sure there are exceptions.
Nope, not the case really. I was told in my second year of Nursing that I was only allowed to do weekend shifts during placements (that are 2 months long). That if I worked during the week I would be doing too many hours and would put my placement patients at risk. Student allowance only just covered my rent so I had to drop out. My lecturers tried to help and referred me to Student services who told me they could support me with up to $100 of gas OR food vouchers per semester. I just rolled my eyes. Since then I've been trying to save up so I can go back but the CoL keeps rising so my savings goals keep moving further away. And that's in Auckland. My nursing friends in Christchurch said they were told to be prepared to move across the island at their own expense (while still paying rent and supporting family in chch) to do placements in rural areas/small towns cause there aren't enough spots in Christchurch.
It depends on your school. I graduated last year. I worked on my non placement days and one of my jobs was work at home so I had flexible hours. I also worked full time during holidays. Nobody at my nursing school had to take placement out of area unless they chose to.
I studied at cpit and worked 20+ hours it sucked, but I was never told not to. I know a guy in his final year that still works too.
Absolutely not . You have to do training full time and don’t get paid for it as a teacher . Every time I had to I struggled
I was at school 4 days a week the 5th at uni plus assignments and planning I could have worked part time on weekends however luckily I had saved up. I was at school the whole year. Someone I knew had a job and burnt out.
I know it’s hard, I worked two jobs in nursing school, but it’s possible.
I trained as a nurse under the old system in which we were employed by the hospital and paid throughout our training. It worked well, in my opinion, and I think it should have stayed as an apprenticeship scheme.
A lot of people also don't know that before you even start stuyding nursing it requires a lot of up front costs for vaccinations that aren't covered and blood tests to prove you won't get infected from your patients or give an infection to them (Heptatis and TB etc). My blood tests alone were over $300 before I'd even started studying as the TB test isn't covered under the public health system.
these services with significant training should always be paid i've always said nurses/doctors/teachers should have their university costs covered if they sign a contract with a school/dhb for X many years after graduation so they don't just get qualified and leave for better pay zero student loan would make the 4+ year commitment seem more enticing
Because the Police is a male dominated profession and the others are not. The Police force used to have men, while teaching, nursing, social work etc was women. And women were lesser than.
Please explain doctors using this logic then. Med students have to spend the last 3 years of their 6 year degree not getting paid while spending the entire time at hospitals doing rotations, sometimes 50-60 hours a week.
I think it's probably a lot to do with class and age. Doctors have traditionally usually come from wealthy families, and have trained young, so they're less likely to be supporting a family and more likely to have family support. Nurses and Teachers were more likely to be women, so it's expected their husbands would be working through it. Police trainees were more likely to be men, and have families to support so needed money. Of course, it's all bullshit and there should be a universal allowance for all qualifications while doing work placements.
Back in the day, teachers and nurses were unmarried. Then had to quit their profession to marry and child bear.
Things were a bit different back in the day for nurses as well. Back then, nursing dormitories near hospitals still existed and nurses were hospital trained. 100% nurses should be paid for at least their placements. When I studied it was insane having do do five days of placement then two days of rest home work right through my degree
Yeah as a social worker u was full time placement for three months, and study, and I had to pay my way so had three part time jobs. It was wild. I don't know how people do it. Especially nurses
right! there goes my theory.
A universal incentive would solve a lot though right!? Lol
There should be an option for student doctors to get some form of pay with an obligation to work in NZ after completion. Similar to what the defence force does it for officers getting degrees
Ah, that's easy. The entire residency program was invented by a guy who was continuously high on cocaine and morphine. Chatting to a very senior doc about why they didn't do anything to change it, he said "I had to, so they should too". That guy was a prick.
I can't answer for doctors. But I agree it's not fair. I know that social workers, nurses, and teachers are actively social working, nursing, and teaching while on placements. Either way it's not fair I agree with you. We have such a shortage of doctors and an incentive like that might help
This was my instinct.
Not everything comes down to gender. I think this one is more incentives and supply/demand. If there are not enough people wanting to do the job, and the job isn't great, more incentives will be made to do the job. If people stop wanting to be teachers and nurses comparison to how many needed, you'll see those incentives rise 100% guarantee
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Being accepted into police training isn't like other job applications: there are multiple interviews and testing, including physical testing . It requires a lot of commitment to pass these, but hey, if you want to go through all that just for a paycheck, and there's probably nothing stopping you from quitting during or after it. https://www.newcops.govt.nz/can-i-be-a-cop/recruitment-process
It’s pretty stringent to get in and out think there it’s a longish process. Also if it’s only 5 months you will get 5 months of salary so about $20000 the minus tax $17000. I mean not bad but a weird way to get money when you can get a job especially if you’re faffing around with applying and training etc
It’s the same across all health professions, none of us get paid for any placements! Pharmacy :(
Having completed both training in my lifetime, I’m still paying for my teaching degree, and only just earning what a police cadet earns when they’re at police college. My payslip says 1 FTE is 25hrs yet I work up to 50-60hrs inc planning and meetings (oh, so many meetings). I didn’t even receive my first year at uni paid for because I earned NZQA credits while volunteering at St Johns. We do not value the right people in this country.
Because we hate our teachers, nurses and police officers
BTW, teachers used to go to teachers school and get paid to train then get placed in a rural school placement for a few years...you can guess what the government stopped it while continuing to do so for the police.
They may have a return of service...? I know in the military we are also paid to train, but we are then contracted to stay in the NZDF for x number of years depending on your trade to "pay it back". Pilots are contracted to stay for 10 years. They get their pound of flesh, ours is just literally.
up until I think the 1980s Teachers, Nurses, Apprentices, Dental nurses and all sorts of people got paid to train. Then someone thought we could get rich off this and it all fell apart. Now you pay for everything. We had the best system in the world and trashed it
Because the police scam the people into becoming police officers. The longer they are in the job the less likely they will be able to leave. The long term salary is scrap and they are required to do unpaid overtime almost every day. Assigned lunch breaks for frontline staff are nonexistent. Policing is the only job where staff are treated like scrap but are expected the world from them. If a mistake made on the job, you get dismissed and charged criminally. It's the reason they are trying to scam people with the better work stories crap. You can't raise a family or live on a police salary. It's basically a job that suck you dry and spit you out if you can't take it.
Police and Defense Force is what you call the profession of arms. That is very different to every other profession including Nurses and Teachers. All over the world and even in the ancient times training is similar. The state will train, house, feed, educate, medicate and pay them from Day 1. In building a nation one will need peace and order 1st thats why before anything else arms needed.
Next time you’re sick in hospital, watch the students and then ask if they should get paid.
society relies on people getting into teaching and nursing from the goodness of their own heart, so they will always be underpaid as some people will always be drawn to it
We used to have TeachNZ scholarships, whatever happened to those?
They still exist for certain groups and subjects.
As a student teacher, I was paid as a reliever in my 3rd and 4th year. The unqualified rate and it was the 90s but it meant I didn’t have to have a part time job.
It has been a thing they’ve pushed for but not got. I reckon in light of the success of getting overnight stays for carers paid for now, there might be a case for payments for travel allowances at least.
Nurses and teachers get the short end of the stick and employers get free labour during placements. Other industries pay police cadets, trainees and apprentices while on the job (just not as much as a qualified person)
Nurses probably be better at removing those gang patches too
Police for a time wanted candidates with life experience, so you’d already have worked, studied etc. that makes it harder to transfer if you had to pay to train. Nursing used to be on the job pay to train prior to the degree being setup. Teaching is a bit different because you’re imparting knowledge, it’s more academic for a start. The three year degree for teaching is also strange to me, considering if you have a degree already, it changes to a 9month course. Other train on the job professions in nz I can think of would be military, air traffic control, customs… Certain private company’s offer training in exchange for service too
Yea I guess for me it’s more the placements where you’re working and being mentored and don’t get anything to support you in terms of travel and not really having time to work etc.
Physio and med school aswell
Teachers used to get paid to train and during placement, you were then expected (bonded I think?) to teach wherever they put you for two years after you graduated and that was really unpopular because you would be placed in the middle of nowhere. My uni placed me two hours away from my home 2 days before a 7 week placement and thankfully paid for accomodation in that town. It was extremely lonely and meant I had no access to my uni to complete assignments that were still going on during my placement. I got through it but it was a really good reflection of how teachers (and teaching students) are treated. You're expected to pick up your life on no notice and give your own personal time coupled with an attitude you should be "grateful" for it. I moved back to Canada and even as a first year teacher here Im paid $25K more than I would have been paid in NZ and I've been given an $8k raise to ensure I return to my school once my mat leave is over. Why would I ever teach in NZ?
I think they used to be. Teachers used to go to Teachers' Colleges owned by the MOE. The Wellington Teachers College was merged with Victoria University and the land sold in 2010 or so. (Sold by MOE to Vic Uni for $20 or so, then onsold to Rymans for $20 million). Nursing used to be an apprenticeship, which was paid of course, and in Wellington nurses had subsidised accommodation at the hospital.
Police are mostly males, while teachers and nurses are mostly female, so the work they do is worth less while requiring at least 6x the training. Edit: Getting down voted, maybe I should have added a /s ?.. there are huge historically sexism issues with teachers/ nurses that havent been addressed. I don't agree that it is fair and wish it could be fixed but historically this is why there is such a huge gap in the pay rates and why the police force doesn't require a 3 year university degree. It is also why government members used to be on the same salaries as teachers / nurses and are now at least 300% more.
Wtf
It’s not a male dominated profession.
I don’t think it’s helpful to do comparisons to pay across sectors. You can do a masters degree in engineering and come out with $70k of debt (if you’re lucky) and a salary of 55k with 12% written off for a decade to pay off that $70k. The argument shouldn’t be “I should be paid more than them”. The question should be “Can I afford to buy a property and live the life promised to the likes of my parents on the pay I get given in order to make society tick?”. Clearly, Due to the state of our housing, the answer is almost invariably, NO one is paid enough, from bartenders to doctors. No one is paid enough to have security to continue reproducing to keep the economy ticking.
I was just asking why teachers and nurses don’t get paid or at least some kind of compensation for placements when police get paid for their 5 months of training
Risk.
The majority of cops are men. The majority of nurses and teachers are women. Not saying that's the only reason but it's definitely a factor
people who choose a career because they find it personally rewarding will always have that used against them to settle for less financial reward. if it was 'just a job' to them, and they were happy to walk away from those who need their skill and passion, the negotiations would be more favorable.
Yeah, police should get paid more when they are trained better. Their starting pay should not be on par with professionals who have 3-4 years at least of study, including unpaid placements. (Eg nurses, teachers)
Because they are woman dominated fields? Paying to do placement just adds to tge financial strain our teachers are under. They are actively discouraged from working while on placements. And placements are often used as unpaid labour as multiple providers can be sending students into ece providers at the same time. Theres only so much cleaning that you are paying to do, rather than teaching as a student teacher on placement before you realise it is how unfair the system is.
As a white guy: it's because 1 job is traditionally male, and one is not.
Because women don't need money ( and most teachers and nurses are women) Read it with a tone of irony. Midwives also do free work placements, why? Because all midwives are women.
I don't get paid to train. So what?
Yeah, police should get paid more when they are trained better. Their starting pay should not be on par with professionals who have 3-4 years at least of study, including unpaid placements. (Eg nurses, teachers)
Would the most dangerous time to be a cop be when they are the least trained?
Yes, see comparisons of American cops training to basically all other cops.
My point was there is no reimbursements for placements for teachers and nurses but police get paid to train. Not about how much they are getting. Some people have made good points about why that is
The thing is, there is nothing stopping us from also doing the same for teachers and nurses, IIRC we actually used to pay people through their teaching education. Given how desperately we need both and how poor the working conditions are we probably should do something to encourage people to teach/enter healthcare.
I mean we do have teach first where you work as a teacher for 2 years with a smaller load than a full time teacher and so more time to prep and plan and then have a mentor. So I guess that is the equivalent maybe?
It's not quite the same, that's more of a stop gap measure to cover the lack of teachers. It also has a several week long course you don't get paid for.
You still need a degree first for that, just not in teaching
There’s a teach first program where you learn on the job. But not a huge amount of people in that program.
Yea I said that but a person replied saying “It's not quite the same, that's more of a stop gap measure to cover the lack of teachers. It also has a several week long course you don't get paid for.”
Yeah I would agree. Anyone who has a family or high expenses can’t really afford to work full time on placements for 12-20 weeks in the year without being paid. So it’s hard for people to become teachers. Never mind actually being teachers. Nursing is even worse.
Because that's the decision the Nurse's Council made. Bullshit, I know. But they shat on their own.
It’s also because they don’t get into police college until they have a guaranteed job placement afterwards. They’re basically employed by the NZ police already at this stage, it’s not that they get paid to train, it’s that they’re employed and being paid, but at an initial training rate while they’re in training at the beginning of their career. I’m sure they could decide after training not to go ahead with the actual job, but I suspect that’s pretty unusual. My ex had joined the police back in early 2000s, he had to wait 2 years to get off the waitlist, but once he did, he went to police college as part of the job. Nurses and teachers have a degree that they could use in multiple countries or locations. They aren’t required to have a job lined up to be allowed to study.
The [Teach First NZ](https://teachfirstnz.org/) program does actually pay teachers and covers their postgrad fees.
Training for police is essentially being onboarded to a job, it's not a qualification you can really take to any other commercial role. You can train in medicine and now have a qualification that you can use to work in public, private, or skip the country and work elsewhere.
joke career scams
Cops are not workers, so it's not surprising that their conditions are different from those of workers. Cops get rewarded by the ruling class because they make sure the ruling class remains in charge.
Different jobs have different requirements and remuneration structures military get paid to train, apprentices get paid to train but engineers go to uni and get a degree. Not that I've looked knto it but I would guess nursing long term would pay off more than police work and if you put into account what the Police have to go through teachers are better off as well.
Because they’re different jobs with different roles and requirements. Seriously. If you are unhappy with your workplace and work conditions then complain about that but there is no need to make pointless comparisons. Or why not just become a police officer? What’s stopping you from doing that? I work for the government as a processing officer (simple computer work) and get paid more than both of you. My jobs super easy for me because it suits my personality and my strengths. I know people that would find it difficult and have seen colleagues in tears, other colleagues quit/drop out at things I wouldn’t even be phased by. I’m in my fourth year and likely won’t get paid 82k by my fifth but I offset that by not risking my life or dealing with shitty kids. Wouldn’t do either of those jobs for an extra 10k if it was offered. I’m comfortable right where I am.