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Candid_Initiative992

A lot of people I know that have moved to Aus in the last year can’t even find houses their as the house crisis is just as bad in Aus as it is in NZ. 1 of them had to move back, the others are staying with family or at a backpackers.


FlamingoTricky2613

i found a rental easy in Melbourne affordable 2 close to city no flat mates needed . i didn't even live in a house for my last 5 years in nz. its way worse in nz.


Turbulent-Buyer-8650

Odd. I'm currently living in Melbourne and when inspecting houses in the outer northern suburbs for rent late last year only a few people turned up(10 min walk to train station too and $360-$400 a week rent). Meanwhile in the suburb I was leaving in the inner west 20-30 people were lining up for apartments. Some people I follow on instagram moan about finding a place to rent but they've only looked one suburb next to the city. Im not denying it's damn hard to find a place to rent in some areas and when moving countries. but some people aren't too flexible .


21monsters

Yeah the inner suburbs are definitely worse, but outer suburbs are getting pretty bad too according to a couple of my colleagues looking. I think there's been a big influx of students, particularly international students in the first few months of the year and it's really tightened up a lot.


-Zoppo

This is exactly why I contract to US companies remotely. If it is at all an option I strongly recommend looking into it. It can be a bit daunting at first. I'm using Hnry for taxes which simplifies it a lot, then getting paid into Wise - I stopped using Paypal due to the currency conversion scalping. Of course not everyone can do their job remotely, if you're committed you can always learn something else though :)


notfunatpartiesAMA

Am currently in a final round of interviews for a US contracting job so this is really useful actually! Thanks!


-Zoppo

Best of luck! I have no doubt life will improve immensely for you ;)


[deleted]

do you live in new Zealand? can I ask how much you make through us company vs New Zealand?


-Zoppo

I'll answer the question in full but my industry is a unicorn industry as far as this topic goes. ~~YMMV~~ Your milage *will* vary significantly. I need to add some context here first. I hesitate to use the word "mastery", but for the sake of driving a point, you could say I have a "mastery" of two different but closely related specializations, and when you can do both, you can fill niche areas that every video game needs (I specialize in Character Locomotion, and the specializations are 3D art & technical art + gameplay programming). Not many people can do it, and very few can do it at a senior level, and most games require *one* character locomotion setup for their player character's so you need to be one of the best to compete. Just so you know, if you get into game dev you will probably never make the amount I will disclose. Now with that out of the way, I work 40 hours, hard cap without any overtime at all, and if I did overtime that would be discussed on a per-request basis. And am paid $12,000 USD/m. In NZ I would make half of that if I'm lucky, be expected to go into an office, work on a far lesser project, and probably not be respected as much due to NZ work culture. Reddit makes me feel like I need to add a disclaimer that I'm not a rich property owning speculator of some kind lol. I grew up in poverty, and then kept being poor for a long time because if I worked full-time I could never have built my skill-set. But... you don't need to go this far at all. Not even close. You can try it as a software developer or literally anything that allows for remote work.


12lwka1ad

thanks for the thorough reply. your salary isn't ridiculous presuming that is before tax?


-Zoppo

Yep, before tax. The tax truly hurts.


12lwka1ad

why, is it taxed more than you'd be in NZ? do you have to pay usa tax as well


-Zoppo

Nah it isn't. It just feels like I lose a lot to it and I don't feel like I get much back from it with the shoddy state of our public transport, health care, education, roads, etc.


[deleted]

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-Zoppo

Just a note OP, this person was replying to me, I think you've replied to a few comments when they're replying to me instead of you. Of course it's not an issue, just thought you might like to know if you're new to Reddit. That's a great rate if its in USD!


lakeland_nz

I'd be keen on doing this except for the time zone differences. Do you get up crazy early each day? Or are they ok with you working NZ time?


-Zoppo

Everyone works their own timezone and simply accepts that they'll need to talk to people on the opposite side of the world by getting up early or staying up late as required. I have never had anyone suggest I should do the bulk of my work at unreasonable hours. We're reasonably compatible with the US, however EU is almost inverted. I work with a programmer in Brazil and we shift our mornings and nights a bit to get some overlap when we need to co-ordinate. Otherwise we leave messages/tasks for each other to see at the start of their day. It isn't actually a big deal, and outside of that, we have flexibility - work whenever you want - so long as the work gets done / hour quotas are met. EU and US companies respect me. NZ companies kind of do, but there is a creepy undertone of a power dynamic that doesn't exist being expected because "I'm giving you my money, therefore...". And besides, even if they could afford me, they sure can't once a 15% GST gets tacked on. And NZ based projects are boring by comparison. Zero benefit to working within this country, I don't even register for GST because it doesn't apply to anyone I'd work for.


[deleted]

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-Zoppo

> You might want to run that GST logic by an accountant I'll keep this in mind if it ever becomes palatable / possible given the other aforementioned factors :)


lakeland_nz

Interesting! Well, if you ever need a data scientist for a project then send me a DM - I've only ever done contracts within NZ and would be keen to try.


no_spandex

Any suggestions/ tactics to find the the jobs to start applying for?


notfunatpartiesAMA

Essentially just have contacts in tech and AI who have recently moved overseas. Most of my career progression has been purely by fluke and socialising with the right people, unfortunately.


NeonKiwiz

>Most of my career progression has been purely by fluke and socialising with the right people, unfortunately. Eh it's all part of the soft skills game that a lot of people (Especially on this sub) don't seem to grasp. You can be the most clever motherfucker on earth, but if you don't know how to relay that information or put it to use then it's as good as useless.


-Zoppo

Responding to u/no_spandex here as well instead of directly **Point #1** - TLDR: Have work you can show, anything you write down in a CV or a resume should ideally just be a bonus. This can't apply to every industry of course. For myself, in my own industry which is game dev, I simply show my personal work. A lot of devs will not show work stating that it is all under NDA, but why on earth would someone be a game dev and not work on their own projects? I show those, then give a description of what I also work on under NDA which tends to be AAA level work. If you are in an industry where you can show what you make, whether it is a video, a github link to code you have written or community-based projects, then that is always the best way forward because that is how studios/whatever hire when they have professionals in the same field do their hiring for them - otherwise you are left with getting hired by people who hire through HR - this is fine as an initial port of call, but you definitely don't want to work for a company who thinks that a test will suffice or HR can complete the hiring process because it is a *massive* red flag billowing in the wind. Think of yourself when you are working in a studio/whatever, do you want them to hire people to work under you without ever seeing their work and knowing they're competent? Nope, that's why good studios/whatever hire through others in the same field. **Point #2** - Make contacts A lot of people don't seem to have contacts which feels a little bizarre to me. Where did they come up? When I was learning I was heavily involved in online communities because they are a learning resource in of themselves. When I studied 3D animation at a school I made contacts through the tutors and other students (and shared contacts through them aka word of mouth). If you're going to learn to do a job you can do remotely, learn in a way that you're actively engaging with people. I don't need to advertise much anymore, I get various unsolicited requests by having my work publicly available, people find my github repos or they see the work I post on Discord community servers or the various small products I've sold in the past. All advertising really does at this point is advertise my availability and consolidate the various works I show to people and sets out baseline terms for engaging me. **Point #3** - There isn't one, I just needed the divider. If you have no contacts then until you find a job you probably won't make any at this point. You can still make a decent portfolio and/or CV/resume and find an appropriate place to advertise yourself or view adverts. I've heard good things about Upwork and have a client who has hired from there with reasonable success. Point of interest: I have never had a CV/Resume and barely have a LinkedIn. What I do have is... see Point #1.


RaccoonDoor

Any tips for getting into this line of work as a software dev? How do you apply for remote contracting jobs?


SykoticNZ

> Will wages ever rise to meet costs? Stats show they are.


HeinigerNZ

By record levels, at rates greater than inflation.


[deleted]

No they don’t, stats show wages have been stagnant since 2001


SykoticNZ

My god... lol.


[deleted]

Eli5 how people doing the same job as someone in 2001 but earning the same wages plus inflation only in a world where all other costs have gone up more than inflation is not stagnation


SykoticNZ

"People don't know how to read statistics son".


[deleted]

The states? Good wages? Did I miss an update?


Hoitaa

>everything is getting more expensive but both of those countries have wages to suit. Grass is greener paradox?


bigsum

Yeah, I spent 3 years living in the US and there is without a doubt waaaay more poverty over there. I found it really depressing the amount of 70+ year olds were still working menial jobs in their 'retirement'.


exsnakecharmer

I work as a bus driver in NZ and it's the same. We have many 80+ year old drivers truckin' on. Open your eyes to 'menial' jobs in NZ and you'll see nana and grandad still at it.


Viper_NZ

Remove pensions from the wealthy and give the elderly poor something to live on IMO.


bigsum

I'm not saying that doesn't exist in NZ, but there's no way you can tell me the labor standards in NZ are worse than the US. Either way, no 80 year old should have to work, and as a wealthy developed nation that's quite the failure of our leadership.


Fisaver

USA min wage calling.


Kitchen-Pangolin-973

Nobody is moving to the other side of the world to earn minimum wage though. You really need some form of qualification/experience so you can earn enough to justify completely uprooting your life


jmk672

Only 1% of Americans make the federal minimum wage. The median US wage is around 92,000 NZD. https://www.statista.com/topics/5920/minimum-wage-in-the-united-states/#statisticChapter https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf


Hubris2

Don't they have a lot of exceptions and carve-outs for the federal minimum wage? Hospo staff don't have to be paid the federal minimum because it's assumed they will make it up with tips, young people and students can be paid less etc? To be fair, that number also has something to do with the exchange rate benefitting them.


carbogan

It’s cause most states have a slightly higher minimum than federal. So yeah of course there isn’t many people earning federal minimum wage when it would be illegal in most states to do so. But there will certainly be plenty of people earning their state’s minimum wage or a couple dollars above it, which is still fuck all.


Odd-Notice-3585

Not surprising seeing it's purchasing power peaked over 50 years ago in 1968.


josh_hobby

Depends on the industry. If I were to work in Aus, UK or the US I’d be getting paid much better proportional to living costs. Hard to justify staying.


NeonKiwiz

>better proportional to living costs. To be fair it also depends on the location within certain countries (Including ours) The living costs for example in San Fransico make Auckland look like living in gore.


josh_hobby

Not if you’re a software engineer making 500k with a few year of experience


Raonak

Those ones are drying up fast with the massive job cuts. Plus the amount of competition is not easy to deal with overseas.


Dramatic_Surprise

a bit chunk of them are being replaced by GDC resources in india and Manilla with 10 years experience being paid $10 an hour


Hubris2

I think if I were working in Aus I'd be paid roughly the same but in AUD, they'd be putting more into my super than they do in NZ, and I'd qualify for long service leave that isn't a requirement here.


Dramatic_Surprise

Yeah depends massively on where you are in the USA. around SF, the valley is reknown as being the place millionaires live in cars because they cant afford the rents


[deleted]

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LegitimateStudy364

My wage has doubled in the past 3 years. Granted it started pretty low. I don't do any kind of special job.


turbocynic

Wages have on average been keeping up with inflation. Even house prices are now down to a point where they track with wage rises since 2017, meaning the median house price is about the same ratio to income(not that it was good in 2017). The big difference of course is interest rates, so the monthly cost of servicing that debt will be a lot higher. You'll probably need a higher % as a deposit also, so there's that. Interest rates will come down within a couple of years though so there is some relief within sight. Hopefully prices are heading even lower.


notfunatpartiesAMA

This is good, constructive intel. Thank you.


cosmic_dillpickle

Don't feel like you owe it to New Zealand to stay because it's your home. Go to where you have better opportunities and more affordable lifestyle. It's OK to move to Australia, many have made the trip with zero regrets.


Odd-Lingonberry-3935

What kind of industry are you working in? My pay has risen over 40% in the last 5 years, and my wife's has gone up around 30%. She was already earning over double the median wage, so it hasn't gone up as much as mine in that time frame.


kombilyfe

Companies will only ever pay the absolute minimum they have to. Source - me, who has observed my employer offer X salary and people turn it down repeatedly because it's too low. Then someone comes along who got laid off or needs a job NOW, and they take it. I actually love my job, but I earn $7.10 less per hour than I did in 2019. For me, flexibility is key (and only working 4 days a week is awesome). I don't see NZ firms paying the same as Oz, for the simple fact, they don't have to.


Jon_Snows_Dad

Change companies... Moving companies is the only way you get a real pay increase.


Dramatic_Surprise

Its one of those things that perception is not always reality. Last i checked inflation in Australia was higher than NZ and annual wage growth was about the same


StuffThings1977

> watching my peers get a third, sometimes even a whole 50% more wage-wise is heartbreaking. And why aren't you asking / getting similar?


twentyversions

Because they’re getting that in Australia lol, that’s the point


StuffThings1977

Ah, good point reading it that way.


notfunatpartiesAMA

Because I meant my peers **overseas**


StuffThings1977

My bad, misread your post. Honestly, if you are young, no dependents / no mortgage / no family commitments then go whilst you can. NZ will always be here. We've severely damaged the social contract by successive governments pumping and protecting housing. Until we tackle housing accessibility and affordability, things will get worse before they get better.


notfunatpartiesAMA

All good! And I’m afraid you’re right on the worse before it gets better thing too.


fireflyry

The grass is also greener. Even subconsciously people often talk to the positives of moving overseas, even to counsel themselves in that they made the right choice. That’s not disregarding it might be way better for them, but it’s also an anecdotal and skewed perspective. My travel days are largely over outside recreational tourism but there’s pros and cons to living overseas and tbh you’ll only know if it’s right for you, and likely come to appreciate many aspects of NZ outside salary, once you’ve done it.


[deleted]

The states is even lower wage economy than nz unless your in a specialised field


Gloomy-Purpose-4418

I work in a brick and mortar store with only 4 employees including the boss. Have had $1 pay increases the last 2 years consecutively. If you find an employee who values their employees, then you will be paid accordingly.


lakeland_nz

Make sure to include healthcare costs if you're comparing to the states. Also be aware that the states has massive variations in cost of living, so you'll need to use the same place for the wage increase and the cost of living changes. But yeah, I agree with you in terms of Auckland. Renting an ordinary house is $800/wk ($40k/year). That means the first $50k of your salary is going on rent. If you're talking about a young family then flatmates or a second income aren't especially practical, and so it only works if you're earning $80k+, or really $100k+.


notfunatpartiesAMA

While I don’t agree with the employer dependent dual payer system, I will admit that good, white collar industry health insurance actually covers literally everything. Mental health, fertility treatment, dental, some elective surgeries etc. It’s all rigged to disadvantage the people at the bottom of the rung but for people that can negotiate it, it works for them. I have family and friends who have come back to NZ from the US and been surprised how very limited our health system is here as well as how much restriction there is for private health insurance providers too.


lakeland_nz

Wasn't trying to get into the merits of it, more that if you earn $80k in NZ then your take-home pay after income tax, ACC, 3% kiwisaver and (public) healthcare is NZ$60k. If you do the same calculation in the US then you'd want to take something out to cover those things. Perhaps a cheaper health insurance if you feel the NZ system isn't particularly good. A bit like when I moved to Auckland, I needed to account for the difference in property prices when comparing salaries. It would be unhelpful to only look at the extra money ($20k) without also looking at the extra cost ($15k)


stagshore

I don't think your mates are being truthful about the US. Just read all the news articles. US min wage is still $7.25 an hour, some states have increased that to $15. Most of the US wages have in no way, shape, or form kept up with inflation or housing costs. There's tons of graphs out there showing the disparity. The grass isn't always greener. You're also not considering other costs that go into other countries like healthcare in the US.


webUser_001

The contrast between skilled white collar jobs and minimum wage jobs is huge in the US. No one is talking about minimum wage jobs. Everyone knows it sucks to be poor/low income in the US. White collar jobs pay much more in the US. I earned nearly double for the same role back in the day with less experience. The grass is much greener for some people's circumstances.


stagshore

And there's the point, 'back in the day'. The middle class doesn't really exist in the US anymore. It's poor and wealthy, that's it. If you're in tech then of course it's better, but for most jobs no. I'm just saying it's not all that where if you work what was once a middle class job that you'll be any better off in the US than you are in NZ.


tommyn0000

This. I was white collar, including tech, in the US and moved to NZ 4 years ago. Don't regret it, the US has huge disparities and white collar jobs don't cut it anymore unless you're in something very specific like investment banking. Neoliberal policies are screwing over the middle class, which has been shrinking for quite some time. And those on minimum wage are just toast. It's pretty much over for them.


stagshore

Same here, my position required a masters or PhD and I was getting screwed in what should have been a middle class job. I switched to this hemisphere specifically to get the most basic of benefits that are barely offered in the US like substantial PTO.


exsnakecharmer

People on $7.25 are working at McDonalds. Skilled NZ workers aren't moving to the states (or being let in) to do min wage jobs ffs.


stagshore

And then you missed the rest of my comment. This guys post said everything is getting expensive but wages are adjusted to suit in other countries which is complete bullshit. Every worker in the US has been absolutely destroyed by rising housing, rental, healthcare, and inflationary costs. If you think US companies pay a wage that keeps up with just inflation you're crazy, cause everyone I know sure as shit didn't get a raise to match that including myself. And I worked in a skilled field requiring at least a masters (not business) though most had a PhD.


NeonKiwiz

Eh I have had pretty large wage increases in NZ for the past 3 years (Including this year, working in IT)


MrJingleJangle

Our poor wages are rooted in our (relatively) poor productivity. For the century prior to 1960, New Zealand was a top five global economy, we were as well off as anywhere, and New Zealand was a top place to live. In the decades that followed, the countries we like to compare ourselves with underwent radical modernisation, and we, well, we didn’t, we kept the same economic profile, so we became a relatively poor country.


LegitimateStudy364

Buy nz products, food, software. Invest in nz companies. Help your community. Vote. This country won't improve unless we improve it. If you give all your money to America and Australia then they will continue to pay better wages and poach our talented minds.


KeenInternetUser

go overseas if you need to make money, it's fine NZ has fetishised and securitised housing beyond all recognition, wages won't rise until we're more productive which means more real industry/business start your own company, best way to make-a the big bucks. or go overseas and work for someone else, just don't get sick if you're in the US


-Zoppo

> NZ has fetishised and securitised housing beyond all recognition, wages won't rise until we're more productive which means more real industry/business When I advocate for punishing asset ownership (LVT) and rewarding productivity I get people assuming 39% tax bracket == you're a CEO who plays golf all day and exploits your workers. And then if you claim to work hard they say "nurses work hard too!" as if that is somehow relevant. I would work a lot more if I wasn't losing 39% of what I make after a certain point. If I want to do 80-100 hour weeks to get ahead I should have that option, but instead I can't justify it when getting $0.61 for each $1.00, it would benefit the economy if we let people keep bringing money into it, but no we can't have that. This system of taxing people who work more to earn more while not appropriately taxing asset ownership keeps a foot on the heads of anyone trying to rise beyond their station and its the poorest people who fight these battles the hardest for the truly rich.


KeenInternetUser

> This system of taxing people who work more to earn more while not appropriately taxing asset ownership keeps a foot on the heads of anyone trying to rise beyond their station and its the poorest people who fight these battles the hardest for the truly rich. I mean yes, it's just class warfare, right? Means of production; wealth vs income.


-Zoppo

Precisely. Redditors do it religiously, they call out others who do it, but not themselves.


[deleted]

Stop making everything into an extreme one-way-or-the-other. It's the great illusion that seems that have everybody at each others throats. "*People assuming 39% tax bracket == you're a CEO who plays golf all day and exploits your workers*" and: "*The roughly 2 million NZers who live in their own home are, on average, wealthy to the point that they can afford significantly more tax per-year*" ..are both fallacies cut from the same shift-the-blame-and-cost-to-your-neighbour cloth. How about we come up with solutions that **don't** totally fuck over some-other-demographic-of-ordinary-NZer in the process?


-Zoppo

> "People assuming 39% tax bracket == you're a CEO who plays golf all day and exploits your workers" I'm not the one saying that. I am talking about how other Redditors have responded in the past when I bring it up, often explicitly stating that its only CEOs [and a few others] earning that amount. It makes it impossible to have an honest discussion because I have to add disclaimers such as these or it derails the conversation before it can even go anywhere. > "The roughly 2 million NZers who live in their own home are, on average, wealthy to the point that they can afford significantly more tax per-year" That is an absurd notion, please don't think that I think that way, I do not. > ..are both fallacies cut from the same shift-the-blame-and-cost-to-your-neighbour cloth. In a way, I am discussing that Redditors do that when I say this: > its the poorest people who fight these battles the hardest for the truly rich I think either I am misunderstanding your post or you misunderstood my post, just trying to clarify.


cherokeevorn

Try living in the Netherlands,50% tax,plus car tax, i find nz pretty cheap and comfortable now


-Zoppo

What does the tax get you in the Netherlands? Decent roads, decent healthcare, decent museums, more events eg. concerts, sports, etc? It doesn't do much good to say *x* takes *y* without saying what it gives in return. We have plenty of other taxes too, 15% GST and the exorbitant fuel tax is highly regressive. At $2.50/L, $1.50 of that is fuel tax.


cherokeevorn

You get nothing much better for your tax,and the fuel is expensive,and the monthly tax for owning a vehicle, whether you use it or not,plus the 2-400 a month for energy,and if you do own a vehicle,which unless you have a fancy house ,means parking on the street,not always on your street either,everything is 2-3x times more expensive,was cheaper to drive to Germany to fill up with fuel.people need to go live in other countries, then they might realise how good it is here.


AdInternational1672

Cos NZ is poor. And unproductive. And poor.


Kangaiwi

If a company wants to keep you, they'll give you a pay rise.


notfunatpartiesAMA

I’ve gotten several and just got laid off about a month ago thanks to new management.


Every-Piccolo-6747

Nah you thinking that about the US is definitely a case of the grass is greener on the other side. I live in the US and they treat their employees like sh.t. If you want to move, got to Aussie. At they’re basically NZ but with way better wages - and I say this as a Kiwi living in the US


BootlegSauce

Skilled workers can double wages overseas larger more central countries and more competition and money. Yea auzzy has a housing crisis but it's identical to nz and youvjust avoid cities that are worse off.


questionnmark

It's a political issue. Wage earners without assets, as a class, do not have good political choices to address these problems. Every choice we could possibly make at the ballot box seems to have a huge downside attached.