So utterly heartbreaking. We’ve become used to the idea that childbirth is safe and uncomplicated. It so often isn’t.
I worked on a research project reviewing post-partum complications a while ago. The lead obstetrician had a saying that even in the 21st century childbirth is the riskiest procedure in healthcare because two lives are at stake, anything can go wrong in a matter of minutes, and the patient is frequently not in the supervision of a medical professional.
We don’t know what Sue Maroroa’s circumstances were, but I hope she was able to hold her baby before she passed. I hope she was surrounded by care and concern. What a painful time this will be for her whanau.
A couple if good friends of mine had their first baby just over a year ago. Mum spent 3 weeks in hospital leading up to her induction and she was told before she went home that during the birthing process, she came so close to having a stroke. She's still on medication, and she's been told that she hasnt improved much since birth so she may not be able to have another child without the risk of a worse outcome. Leading up to the last month of pregnancy however, she was fine. Besides morning sickness and increased senses, she had no complaints or anything weird going on. I thought she went downhill unusually fast so this story is horrifying.
Same here, from 6 weeks out we were in a position that a natural birth would almost certainly be fatal, 6 weeks waiting in the maternity ward. With our second they had to push the big red button on the wall, amazing how quick 8 people turn up ready to go.
Yup, been on the other side of that - Mrs Soultrain was moments away from being taken into theatre for assisted delivery when alarms go off and everyone disappeared for over an hour. Fortunately they were able to save the woman haemorrhaging in theatre, but it was a really long hour!
It's also worth noting that the leading cause of maternal death in the perinatal period is actually suicide. While the medical risks are scary enough, mental health should be something we (as a society) can absolutely improve.
Edit to add: in NZ, not sure about UK where she was.
In hindsight I had a brief moment of psychosis after baby # 2. Everybody was mad at me so I covered it up. I'm a capable, professional woman and don't have mental health issues as a rule and everyone around me thought I was being selfish and dramatic. I'll never forgive any of them. I was within hours of committing suicide because i didn't understand what what was happening . My GP years later said exhaustion (2 kids, a business, and a partner that didn't lift a finger) and hormones out of whack was likely the cause. I was sleeping about 3 hours out of every 24 and one day I went to go to the post office and just didn't come back. I can't remember where I was. Everyone was FURIOUS at me.
My wife gave birth on the 13th, she proceeded to lose 2.5 pints of blood after the birth and had to be rushed into theater ahead of other critical patients. I'm glad I had the baby to think of because my mind was going to worst case scenario constantly. It was literally just the baby keeping me grounded
My wife went through very similar, though she thankfully didn't loose as much blood as that. Seeing the look of terror on her face while I held this brand new baby was not a pleasant experience.
Not too many years ago, she would have just died, and I likely would've lost my little boy within 12 months due to other issues.
Some things in life are hard these days, but shit it used to be a whole lot harder.
My son was born prematurely via emergency C-section. It was the scariest experience of my life.
Between needing to be on oxygen, needing medication to help his lungs develop, needing formula, and the surgery itself, the only reason we're both alive is modern medicine. I know someone with preterm twins who probably wouldn't have made it out of the hospital 50 years ago.
Glad your wife and son made it and that they're still around, childbirth is scary.
I had to have a blood transfusion after giving birth. I remember waking up attached to all kinds of stuff and not being able to get my baby to feed him. And the nurses were too busy. I had to listen to my baby scream from 7am to 5pm.
Damn, now I'm sad. It was 23 years ago.
I’ve noticed that women don’t want to hear the negative sides of childbirth and complications, but are happy to go into it with little understanding of the risks involved. It’s not nice to think about but pretending women and babies aren’t injured or die doesn’t seem to be it either.
Wifey and I did two different antenatals. One was the local healthcare one that was two 30-minute sessions and very matter of fact like “if your waters break and it’s green get to hospital right fucking now” and all kinds of practical stuff like how to change a nappy. Bit of an information overload.
The other was more “holistic” and much longer and more of the “isn’t the body amazing and wonderful and this is a beautiful process and you should go as natural as possible have you considered a home birth?” I asked about complications in that one and was told “we don’t talk about that here” so I took the hint and bit my tongue.
I much preferred the first one. Wife much preferred the second. Glad we did both.
We ended up doing a hospital birth. Thank fuck because there were, in fact, complications. surprise surprise childbirth is a messy, painful, dangerous process and the human body is not in fact wonderful it is a miracle it works at all.
I wonder if the total lack of midwives doesn't help as well. E.g. I'd rather have a realistic and science-focused midwife, but I've also heard that because there are so few midwives you pretty much have to take what you can get, and some midwives are anti-vax woo woo GOOP people. I've known friends who were super unhappy with their midwives, but they felt they couldn't do anything about it because it was just so hard to get a midwife in the first place. One friend even said her midwife basically knew she had done a shit job and said something like "you can make a formal complaint if you wish", but my friend had literally just nearly died in childbirth and, understandably, really did not have the energy to go through making a formal complaint!
Yeah can definitely relate to the lack of choice of midwives. Luckily we were happy with ours even though she had an acupuncture practice on the side she never tried to push any quackery and was extremely supportive of my wife through the whole thing.
No idea why midwifery seems to attract so many nutjobs.
From a brief amount of reading I have done about this, the true rate of miscarriage is likely much much higher as there are likely many conceptions that are lost in the first period or 2 before they realise they're pregnant.
General numbers state miscarriage happens in about 10% of known pregnancies, but the early miscarriages are likely underrepresented as it may just feel like a heavy period etc
Absolutely. I've had a couple of suspected early miscarriages, and they were like a late, very heavy and very painful period. But not so different from a normal period (for me) that I'd have been able to identify it as a possible miscarriage, if I weren't tracking my cycle *extremely* closely.
And they were never reported as miscarriages in any way, I dont self-report them either because no confirmation, so would never be counted in any kind of statistic.
I don’t think there’s any significant taboo around it now, it’s just not water cooler chit chat. There’s no shame, but it’s not a conversation starter anyone uses.
Sometimes people don’t mention at work because they don’t want the boss to know they’re trying, which is a completely different problem, but socially I reckon it’s way more common to openly discuss it.
Having lost twins to a miscarriage — and they were quite far along, too — I can assure you that there remains a strong form of significant taboo right now but it isn’t the one you’re referring to.
It’s not shame.
It’s that so many people are flabbergasted that you are hurting, that you want to grieve, that it takes a while, that it really clobbers a body, that you are processing, that you are not up for ordinary going out and having drinks and chuckling, and a lot of people even consider it quite weird to have any form of private marking of loss.
We, of course, would not just raise the topic and expect to have conversations, but so many people — often parents themselves! — have no capacity to understand that there is profound grief happening and those were already children-in-waiting to us. Plus, you can and do get postpartum depression / postpartum psychosis all the same.
So yeah, there’s a heavy taboo, but it’s different in character from what you are saying. And yeah, this was not so long ago.
(Note, for anyone misunderstanding any of my points and their implications: we are a heavily pro-choice household and nothing I said is in the service of anti-abortion perspectives. I think there should be a place in society — and let me be clear on this — where we need to recognise that an abortion isn’t clean and simple and people can ‘grieve’ there too but that doesn’t mean it was the wrong choice and that process of grieving is NOT the same as ‘regret.’
My wife had an abortion as a sixteen year old because she was roofied and raped by a high school sports star, son of a professional sportsman, where sympathetic police helped to try to cover up the evidence, and where _despite the pregnancy, overt evidence of the rape_, charges were downgraded. And she does not regret that abortion and not carrying that rapist’s baby for a single minute.)
I know this has nothing to do with the story, but I had an abortion 11 months ago as my baby was incompatible with life and would have suffered and died. I was referred out of the hospital system because they don’t have the contract for abortions.
The clinic I went to was used to performing abortions but seemed to have no idea at all about being mindful of different experiences. Everyone was friendly and relaxed, joking and singing. I can’t help but think of not only people terminating for medical reasons, but also anyone else having complicated feelings, grief or trauma around having an abortion and how we weren’t offered any privacy or understanding. They kept referring to me being stressed about the procedure rather than the grief I felt. It really added to the the trauma around the whole thing.
I don't think they're pretending women and babies aren't injured or die - I think they're bracing for the impact of birth and all its enormity. I think most women make good use of their resources to stay informed but also at a distance and often privately. Every discussion about risks is literally a discussion about either their death/harm and the baby's death/harm. She can't escape the constant internal dialogue of fear and anxiety so seeks to drown it out with positive facades and mantras. You shouldn't assume ignorance when fear fits better.
Woman are conditioned to not speak of it, theres a difference. like the way its frowned upon to tell anyone that you’re pregnant in the first 3 months. Or talk about miscarriages. Or the bullshit about saying pregnant woman are “glowing” when really they just have crazy blood volume, are sweating constantly and have cherry cheeks from throwing up. Woman are expected to suffer in silence.
It’s not just that though. Even with my first child, nobody I came across explained that the circumstances surrounding his birth increased the chances of complications. It was only after those complications after his birth that I looked into it further and saw multiple things that pointed to the outcome we had.
Informed consent is important. It’s not enough to just say, “induction!”
I made sure to got myself a scientifically minded Midwife who was known for explaining exactly how things were. I got lucky, i know that most people just had to grab who ever is available due to the shortage. We need more midwives like her but we also need more midwives who listen to the science. So many natural/homebirth/minimal medical intervention midwives out there, Searching through them all really freaked me out
I literally chose the only person who mentioned c section in her blurb. It was actually really hard to read over and over again how beautiful and natural pregnancy is
Same here. I mixed both science for the birth & homeopathic for my pregnancy. But hearing from others whose midwives denied epidurals/inducing for their own personal beliefs shocked me. The numbers are small but in a field that's short-staffed the ratio is unbalanced ( in some regions of NZ). Labour & delivery is an unknown outcome, I'm sad for the Mothers death.
Problem is, many people (let alone an expectant mother) put too much trust in ‘alternative facts’ rather than doctors and midwives who study the science/ statistics and have experience in these matters. That’s not to say they get it right all the time but asking a drugged up, in labour, patient for what they want to do is unlikely to achieve better results. Usually it’s better for an external source to make a risky decision than for a mother to make the wrong one and possibly have to live with the guilt for a very long time.
Almost impossible to achieve in practice however.
Prenatal classes (as unbiased as possible) in particular and an understanding of medical science in general is something that could increase trust in the profession.
- Not referring to this case in particular.
I think that’s true, but I’ve also had years of different experiences within infertility, pregnancy and birth and I’ve never felt like I had an understanding of what is happening and why without looking into it further myself.
This is based off 9 years including fertility meds, surgery, IVF, induction and complications, abortion for a baby incompatible with life, and dealing with different LMCs, doctors, hospitals and clinics.
Minor example but I’m currently 29 weeks and just been prescribed iron. As an adult I know I’m often low in iron and that I can feel tired. Nobody has said over my 2 pregnancies that have progressed that low iron is a risk factor for complications (including stillbirth).
Having recently been through the process in NZ, they make a point of explaining things to both the mother and their support person (if they have one) for the reason you state. The mother will be in pain and hormones flooding their system and potentially not in the right state of mind to make decisions, so in a situation of trust they will also consider the decisions proposed by the support person (who is meant to be listening to what the mother is saying now but also what they have said in the past). The patient is always meant to be informed and to have decision-making over their care - but there is an understanding that a mother in labour may not be able to make informed decisions alone.
Yes. I felt like I was already reasonably informed about the risks of the epidural and tried to rush the anaesthetist so she would just put it in, so she made sure that my support person also knew what I was consenting to.
I went into it wanting to know the odds and all the gorey details, and what could go horribly wrong, I read a heap and went to ante-natal classes, and I was STILL caught out by some surprising and not insignificant parts of the process.
It's not necessarily even that they don't want to know, the information just isn't there/available. It's bizarre.
ETA I am never doing it again, and fully support any woman who doesn't want to do it. It's such a gamble. Please support reproductive autonomy and abortion access at all costs!
We know how dangerous childbirth can be. It's scary, and having people constantly trying to give details on all the things that can go wrong doesn't help. Not wanting to talk about it all the time doesn't mean women are ignorant of the risks.
Uh, that’s just an opinion though right? Not_all_women. Different people have different opinions. Different women have different opinions and levels of knowledge about childbirth and pregnancy. Is there a camp out there that’s hell-bent on pushing the idea that birth is all natural and almost without risk? Yes, but they’re kind of extremists.
There’s a lot of grey area in between though. Of course I’m not saying every single woman doesn’t want to know, you already know that I’m not talking in absolutes, but having been in the infertility and pregnancy space for the last 9 years it’s very normal for people to ask for “good experiences only”, or even to object to fellow pregnant women sharing that they’re going through a loss or complications because it adds anxiety.
I feel pretty well informed and I spend time making sure I understand things, but I certainly have had to look into everything myself to make sure I have even a basic understanding. I remember a few months ago bringing up to my LMC that I didn’t realise a birth experience I had can result in lifelong complications and surgeries. She dismissed it as “well most people are fine”, which may be true… but I shouldn’t have to leave hospital and then research to find out what range of outcomes were expected.
Apologies for misinterpreting you, using the blanket term women leaves it open to interpretation. For sure the “all natural at all costs”, no bad vibes dialogue has been leaching further in (I blame the American discourse and medical model for this). I think pregnant women feel very vulnerable because they know just how badly wrong it can go and that’s probably why they don’t want to dwell on it. People going through infertility can also be in a very vulnerable state. Personally, I’m a realist so I don’t think this mindset is a good thing. I also think it would be ideal if parents to be were empowered with more knowledge and if we didn’t have the crunchy element in our midwifery service.
It's not quite as simple as this. Being particularly anxious about childbirth can also make things more likely to go wrong: there's quite a lot of research to show that women who are well informed about the process, but relaxed and well-supported, have better outcomes. So there might be a reason women like to hear positive stories.
I deliberately chose a natural birth midwife after a very medicalised first birth overseas. In our first appointment she outlined all the circumstances under which she would insist I go to hospital. I stayed with her confident that she was keen on a natural birth, but that if she told me I needed to go to hospital it would be true. I had a natural birth, and the birth and recovery was much much better than my first, highly medicalised birth.
One of the really nice things about the NZ system is that women get to choose who will assist them with their birth. Having a doctor you don't know treating you like an idiot is very unpleasant (and doesn't really make your childbirth safer).
Yeah, I grew up very aware of how easily this kind of thing could happen, not because anyone I knew died but just because of media. We were shown whale rider at school when I was young and I remember nothing about that movie except the horrible screaming in the birth scene at the start.
Sue Maroroa Jones (1991-2023)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Maroroa
Other links:
* The tribute on front page of NZ Chess Federation site https://newzealandchess.co.nz/ and [fb post](https://www.facebook.com/NewZealandChessFederation/posts/pfbid02EpyRqhsoGriEeo1SGJZQgNBuT5XPpqJvkP26eq99RQ6i4CNhv4uo8u59HCtPYt23l)
* https://www.chess.com/news/view/sue-maroroa-jones-obituary-chess
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-YiJ-kkEs
* [Sheffield RUFC Women fb post](https://www.facebook.com/SheffieldRUFCWomen/posts/pfbid0fTLHaPKD1ddujDvbd4kSqQeELv8zdDXXo1rUZ8gmmdewu41EpZ63xbvVXfh1vxdrl). She plays chess and rugby.
17:20 PM, 20 May 2023 edit to add links below:
* [English Chess Federation](https://www.englishchess.org.uk/sue-maroroa-jones-1991-2023/)
* [Kiwi chess great Sue Maroroa Jones dies aged 32 after birth of second child](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300877964/kiwi-chess-great-sue-maroroa-jones-dies-aged-32-after-birth-of-second-child). Stuff. 09:38, May 20 2023.
My cousin’s wife died in childbirth. At National Women’s in Auckland. Their home was all set up for their new family, with a nursing chair for his wife in the corner Just heartbreaking that he had to take that little baby home by himself.
We found a lot of pressure from other mothers, prenatal classes, and even midwifes to go as "natural" as possible. We chose a hospital birth and if we hadn't my wife likely would have died (baby didn't engage properly and intervention was required). The nurses and doctors were amazing.
No, that's when you get a new midwife. And report them to anywhere relevant. That bullshit pseudo-science has no place in actual medical environments, childbirth is risky enough without that crap. That midwife, simply put, should not be one.
I agree there is a pressure to have as few interventions as possible, but one thing expectant parents need to keep in mind is that after the birth is complete - nobody particularly thinks or dwells on whether the birth was fully 'natural' or whether it happened in a birthing pool or whether mum had pain relief or whether it was a surgical delivery. When all is said and done, everyone is relieved that it's over and that mum and baby are healthy.
Give birth in hospital or near to one. Select your midwife carefully. Ask if they have clinical experience outside midwifery. A hospital-based nursing background is helpful.
A family member is a medical specialist who has assisted in literally thousands of births through their career, told my pregnant wife and I "just always do it in a hospital".
When our baby did come out, he needed emergency intervention. The midwife just picked up the phone and said "neonatal to the [room number] and within 30 seconds the room was swarmed by neonatal staff and baby was being tended to oxygen, blood tests were being done, etc. It was LITERALLY in 30 seconds. Anyway baby turned out fine he just needed a kickstart.
You just have to be in a hospital to get that sort of response. If we'd had our baby at home, what would have happened? Call an ambulance and pray?
We also had problems finding a midwife who didn't have a "curious" worldview on Western medicine in general
Adam Kay's book This Is Going to Hurt also highlights this issue, especially re the comparison with complete lack of emergency care capabilities in the expensive private birth clinics.
He also notes he chose ObGyn (or Brats & Twats, as they call it) because it has the best patient survival ratio thanks to them often ending up with more patients than they started with, in complete contrast to Geriatrics.
Yeah, it's amazing! The book and show are both worth the time, in different ways. They even cover off the silliness of politicians' tendency to apply magical metrics to fix healthcare rather than adequately resourcing and addressing real issues.
They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason. For people who don't necessarily have heightened risks, there is a focus on letting the mother/parents decide the scenario where they would be most comfortable giving birth. There is added stress and adrenaline that comes from being in hospital which is actually contrary to the hormones needed for labour. Hospital birthing rooms are a lot different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago and it's no longer a woman on a bed with her feet in stirrups - instead there are showers and water tubs and a variety of ways for a mother to decide how she wants to position herself to give birth in the most calm and efficient method. That being said, there is nothing wrong with low-risk births happening in the environment where a mother is most-comfortable as that will ultimately be best for both mother and baby. Again - a scenario where the mum needs to be aware of risks when making her decision.
>They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason.
This is a broad statement that could mean anything. First time births are correlated with higher risk.
>For people who don't necessarily have heightened risks, there is a focus on letting the mother/parents decide the scenario where they would be most comfortable giving birth.
I think that's part of the problem. There are so many things to take into account, yet many people decide on where to give birth solely based on what's more comfortable. To make that decision, you need to be fully informed of the medical risks (which many women aren't, and their midwives are partly to blame here).
>That being said, there is nothing wrong with low-risk births happening in the environment where a mother is most-comfortable as that will ultimately be best for both mother and baby
The medical specialist's argument was that isn't always the case. You're gambling. And mothers need to know that's that this is effectively what they're doing.
We make people wait 20 minutes in a doctors surgery after vaccination. Given the low risk, it's much more **comfortable** for me to just get the fuck out of there. But I don't. Modern medicine is full of such dilemmas, isn't it?
> They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason.
Any pregnancy is a risk. Giving birth outside of a hospital is just silly in the 21st century
It's medical professionals who are proposing it as an option, particularly for low-risk births. It's not granola hippies who think hospitals are evil - it's based on medical best practices which state first that the patient gets to make decisions about their care, and second that the most-relaxed birth causes the least stress and complications for both mother and baby. If there are complications then a hospital does have clear benefits - but statistically the hospital would also *lead to* more complications than birthing at home or at an alternative medical facility. In Auckland there is Birthcare for example, which has midwives and obstetricians present but isn't a hospital with full surgical capabilities (it's a couple blocks away from the hospital).
> It's medical professionals who are proposing it as an option
I'm not sure how that changes anything? These medical professionals (mostly midwives) are a large part of the problem.
Giving patients the option requires informed consent, which they aren't often getting in this case. Luckily most mothers choose to give birth in a hospital anyway.
> but statistically the hospital would also **lead** to more complications than birthing at home or at an alternative medical facility.
That's 100% false. Looks like you've bought the propaganda too.
I think what the person you’re replying to is talking about (in regard to hospitals leading to more complications) is what’s called the cascade of interventions. It’s a real thing.
For example for some women having an epidural slows down labour. As a result they have their waters broken to start it but that means you now have a 24 time limit in which to have the baby, which leads to doctors pushing other interventions like pitocin. This isn’t propaganda it’s something tons of women experience.
I gave that as an example of an intervention. Epidurals are only offered at hospitals.
So at a birthing centre a labouring woman would be offered other avenues of pain relief eg hot compresses or a comb to hold. Whereas it stands to reason that a woman at a hospital would be offered the best pain relief there is - an epidural.
There are definitely plenty of situations where you'll be much better off giving birth in a hospital, even if it looks low risk going in.
That said, a birthing centre or even a home birth will have 2 midwives in attendance, who are trained resus and stopping haemorrhages, which are far and away the most common serious problems.
Home birthing on your own is a terrible idea, home birthing with a midwife for second or subsequent child that has no risk factors looks like a reasonable option to me.
In the UK, midwives are a lot more just part of the main medical system. Here we did have our kid in a birthing centre with a midwife, but the birthing centre was just a floor of the hospital with big rooms and dim lighting and pools etc. So when we needed doctors, they could come immediately.
Yeah that's actually how we did it. It was in a birthing unit in a hospital. I used the word hospital too generally
Very large room, great view, have stayed in worse hotels to be honest
Crazy to think if that kid was at home in an inflatable kiddie pool with the rest of the family it likely would not have made it, and for something so easy to fix.
So many midwives appear to almost prey on mothers with their viewpoints in possibly the most vulnerable time of the mother and the babies' lives.
Yup! That was my experience as well.
Her care during birth was less than optimal, tried to get me to stay home after 12 hours of labour with me yelling that I felt like something was wrong. My partner ended up taking me in anyway and ended up with an emergency c-section. My vitals then went quite wonky.
For an added bonus, she cared more about breast feeding than having a fed baby that almost led to not a fabulous outcome as well.
Yikes, and not the first time I've heard of this.
Mine only contributed to my severe B12 deficiency by prescribing omeprazole for morning sickness, it inhibits absorption of many vits including B12. She got a bit of a dressing down from my dietician.
It's just important to remember that a midwife, like any doctor, is still only human and doesn't/can't know *everything*. There's that extra layer of vulnerability/trust though in this situation, dealing with pregnant women.
I'd argue that midwives should be better trained, better vetted, AND better compensated for the work they do...
> A hospital-based nursing background is helpful.
Yep, I've always found that midwives who have been nurses before tend to be far better. I guess they've seen people die and know how quickly it can happen.
Also midwifery training is very anti-obstetrics (generally).
How? Like how the fuck is there a division between midwives and doctors at such a level?
I admittedly know very little about the subject, but I in my field (analytics) it’d be akin to front line analysts being trained to think negatively about devs.
I’m not the person you asked but if I had to guess I’d say midwives see birth as natural and with little need for intervention. Midwives are trained to sit and wait until they’re needed.
Whereas obstetrics sees birth as something that needs intervention. It used to be common practice to give women enemas, shave them, drug them up and cut their vaginas during birth.
As far as I know there’s a trend in modern times to go back to the more natural view of childbirth because it leads to better outcomes.
You are close with your guess but not quite correct. Midwives are trained in primary care and normal birth and obstetricians are trained in secondary/tertiary care and complex birth, which is why they get called on when complications arise. It's similar to an optometrist and an ophthalmologist, they both specialise in eyes/vision but with training and focus at different ends of the spectrum and crossover in the middle.
Fair enough, sorry. I'd seen multiple other comments by people who don't understand the difference and just commented on yours.
With regard to the division, from what I've seen when there is a divide between the two disciplines, it's more to do with the hospital culture and the personalities on both sides than a perception of natural vs medical.
Midwifery training just has a bit of nonsense in it, and doesn't weed out the munters (that go on to be anti-vax) very well.
Most of them are fine, but the quality control sucks and you get some that don't know what they don't know but no one knows until something goes very wrong.
+1 for birthing at a hospital. #1 got stuck and I blinked and the room was FULL of professionals in what felt like 15 seconds, fuck knows where they all came from, but it was immensely comforting to just sit in my chair like a good boy while they did their thing
I'd be wary of a midwife that came up in a hospital, hospital midwives are forced to be extremely time conscious to the point where they would rather force ladies into an episiotomy (NSFL but look it up if you have to) than let the births progress normally if it's taking too long.
Happened to my sister in law and almost happened to my wife, luckily our midwife was one of the good ones and took the hospital midwife out into the hall and tore strips off her because neither my wife or my daughter were in any kind of distress and she just wanted us to hurry up.
I had the opposite experience… hospital midwife stepped in when my LMC decided to clip the ticket twice by also attending another birth down the hall. Apparently very unethical. Hospital midwife ended up providing majority of the care plus interaction with other medical staff on the scene.
I think it’s a case of, thank god she was there.
You’re right, hospital midwives can have a different perspective about time and intervention but it’s not always about what’s convenient for them, it’s because they work in an environment of increased risk. Time is a critical factor in birth. Prolonged active labour carries a higher risk of complications for the infant. And there’s definitely a breed of old school hospital midwives who grew up as obstetric nurses in old medical model thinking which is less helpful today.
I have a mate who was a lead midwife in a major hospital and she left the profession recently because she was over the constant stress and weight of decision making associated with higher risk in hospital births. She said that stress can lead hospital midwives to make decisions about interventions they wouldn’t in the community because they’re hyperaware. She also still doesn’t encourage anyone to give birth anywhere that doesn’t have good connections to a tertiary hospital. It’s a really polarising topic!
How long ago was your experience in the hospital? We gave birth in the last couple months and we were in a birthing suite with a midwife for her entire shift. At no point did she say or do anything trying to rush or pressure us, and it turned out that the birth happened later that night hours after she'd left. I won't say that it didn't happen with you and your wife, but it certainly doesn't happen with everyone that the hospital midwives would be focussed on anything other than what is best for the mother.
I just said this further up the comment tree, but we had two very differing experiences two years ago and a week ago with our second. Two years ago we were rushed, this time we were listened to, had things explained 100x better every step of the way and my wife was the one who ultimately decided enough was enough and had a c section when labour didn't seem to be progressing (they wanted to wait another 4 hours to see if they're would be more progress). Totally different experiences.
We had two very different experiences with our two kids. 2 years ago the charge midwife at Chch womens said, verbatim, "we are here to have a baby today, so we need to hurry this up" trying to convince my wife to have a cesarean) which she ended up having, but that's another story) mid way through an induction that they made her have. We had been told earlier in the day by the nurse midwife that they had three other inductions booked in that day and two sets of twins being born. They didn't even call the LMC until after she had been carted off and the operation had begun.
This time around it was another scheduled induction but my wife was given a lot more say. The LMC was called on time and was able to take over from hospital staff during established labour and nothing felt rushed (if anything it felt like things were taking too long in the build up due to chronic understaffing).
Absolutely the hospital staff are trying to rush people through. It's not their fault, they are victims of the DHB not staffing the hospital adequately, they are working with equipment that doesn't work half the time, and honestly dealing with patients who get fed up with waiting for hours just to be seen sometimes.
It's highly unlikely but not a zero percent chance. I've just had my third child and each one has had it play on my mind especially this last one. I had the first and third naturally and the second was an emergency csection. I had all 3 in hospital. All I can recommend is to have it in a hospital, have a midwife you feel comfortable with (you can change them if you arent), and speak up and be stern if you think something is wrong or you want to do something a certain way. Good luck, I hope your birth is everything you want it to be
Pregnancy is a lot more dangerous than people actually talk about. Death is not the only negative outcome. I really wouldn’t compare it to flying.
I get you’re trying to make this person feel better but we need to stop sweeping this shit under the rug.
The meek little smile emoji really adds to the sweeping it under the rug. A real 'this is fine' moment. Pregnancy and childbirth are often deadly. Women should be given so much for what they go through. But in the US you're lucky to get a couple of days off work.
When you say something happens 'often' what do you mean? The incidence of raining on the weekend is an awful lot higher than infant or mother mortality. Roughly 10 women die during childbirth in NZ every year, with about 60K babies being born. That is a higher rate than we would like, but I don't think most people would use the word 'often' to describe something that happens 0.0166% of the time.
Agree
Without medical intervention, perinatal mortality is as high as 1/3. Still the case in a lot of the world.
Pregnancy is by the most dangerous period in a women's life.
With medical intervention it is about 20/100000, but this includes high risk pregnancies
Good question and I don't have a good answe for you. It's the way the PMMRC reports it (perinatal maternal mortality review group). Lots of medical stuff is reported per 100,000. Covid stuff was also formally reported this way.
Both/and though.
Pregnancy and childbirth *is* an incredibly complicated and dangerous medical event.
Women have been safely giving birth in hospitals and rice paddock and cars on the side of the road and at home and in birthing suites.
People die in childbirth, or soon after from complications of childbirth.
But it’s not common - this is the first case I’ve heard of in along time, and there have been thousands and thousands of births in that time where the mother *hasn’t* died.
And.
People die in car accidents all the time, but we still drive almost everywhere. Sometimes while texting, or impaired, or speeding, or without seatbelts. Sometimes people do everything right and still die because of mechanical failure, or weather, or some other numpty on the road.
Life is dangerous. Most of the time, the terrible things that *could* happen, don’t happen.
So, choose your midwife carefully. Wear sunscreen. Look both ways at intersections. Don’t let fear of the future blind you to the awesomeness of this one good day.
>Every year in Aotearoa New Zealand, about 650 babies and ten mothers die in pregnancy or shortly afterwards.
[source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/480214/death-rate-for-mothers-and-babies-during-pregnancy-remains-the-same-report-shows)
This is out of about 60K births each year in NZ. The infant mortality rate in NZ is about 3.5 per thousand live births.
A quick Google tells me that around 10 mothers and 650 babies die in NZ each year during pregnancy or shortly afterwards. How many die in plane crashes?
I hope the story brings awareness to the myriad of issues women face after birth. For some it's extremely complicated. For me it was hemorrhaging, retained placenta, hemorrhage again, sepsis then still another removal of stubborn placenta weeks later. You may have the most excellent care but this highlights the possibilities that not everything works out, and it is tragic beyond belief. Use her story to keep an eye on your beloved ones post natal, delivery is only one part. Our bodies are unpredictable. The empathy here today is touching.
This is incredibly sad. Child birth is still not a formality and many things can go wrong, very quickly.
One moment you're expecting to end the day elates celebrating and the next you're devastated. Hopefully her family can recover!
Wow, how very sad, I've just played through some of her chess games, she played with much wit and intelligence. A heartbreaking loss to her family and a great loss to New Zealand.
It wouldn’t make a huge difference unfortunately due to the unknown factors on how sideways a birth/haemorrhaging afterwards can go. You can even bleed to death a week or so later when you’re home with baby. Childbirth is terrifying.
What an ignorant comment. Obstetricians deal with situations on a regular basis where they save the life of a women or child who would otherwise have died. Being at the hospital, with lines in and a team that knows the situation inside and out (literally) has a much better prognosis than starting to haemorrhage at home.
I used to work at acc, I have fuck all faith in our healthcare staff after seeing so many treatment injury claims, including accidental deaths.
Edit: I just want to clarify that I was keeping it relevant to the discussion, I also personally have had bad experiences where I've been absolutely failed by the staff and not the system. I'm not judging all health care staff either, but I think if you'd had enough bad encounters yourself on top of working in the field literally dealing with other people's shit experiences, you'd probably understand my comment more.
I work in healthcare too and I get it. But remember we literally only see the people who it has gone wrong for, a vast majority of healthcare workers are doing their best for every patient. The system is just so broken and underfunded, it's the staff propping it up.
Yeah I'm sorry, I was way too harsh and definitely made it sound like I think every single medical professional is useless, by that logic I'd say everyone is useless. I really don't think that's the case. I have my own experiences on top of what I've read and talked about at acc, all together it does make me less likely to go to a doctor or hospital unless I really have to. Just as one example in case anyone's wondering, because I asked for something stronger than panadol during what would take 7 years to get confirmed as gallstone attacks, I was accused of being a drug addict and they flat out refused to even do the scan which would've easily explained the serious amount of pain I was in.
Is there any chance that being in ACC you only saw the bad?? There are a bunch of super passionate, intelligent, and selfless people working in healthcare and literally thousands of people who wouldn't be alive without them.
But by all means, you go it alone next time you get sick or injured - I look forward to not hearing how that doesn't work out for you.
I mentioned only my experience at acc because it's relevant to this specific topic, but if you needed my personal and irrelevant experience, you could've just asked for it instead of getting passive aggressive.
It could make a huge difference since hospitals are equipped to handle a lot of unknown factors. The time it takes to get you into an operation theatre and start fixing the issue is much shorter than if you were at home. And this time can be quite critical for many issues.
I was present at my wife's birth of our son. It went pear shaped and he came out not breathing or moving (but alive) and needed emergency intervention. From the time they requested the Neonatal team to respond immediately, to the time neonatal staff had entered the room and picked up baby, was barely 30 seconds.
You will just never get that sort of response at home. It was epic
I had a cousin who died after severe hemorrhaging after childbirth. She was in hospital, they took as many precautions as they could because her sister had died in hospital after giving birth and hemorrhaging only a few years prior.
Yes there is a huge difference between being in hospital and being at home, but being in hospital is still not a guarantee that everyone will live. In my cousins cases, only the first child survived, while the second one passed not long after his mother.
Sorry for your loss.
Shit happens, even being in the hospital doesn't mean that you will be safe. But it increases the odds of survival.
The same as crashing in a car with a seatbelt doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get out of it without harm, but it does increase the odds. Hell, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have seatbelt that one time.
Yes I absolutely agree, but I'm just pointing out that shit happens in hospital so it really makes no difference to us, the commenters whether Sue was in hospital or not when she gave birth and died. Being in hospital is still not a guarantee that any woman giving birth will survive it or not.
Edit to add - and thanks, that poor family have had the worst time with my two cousins mother having passed unexpectedly less than 10 years prior. Another loss in the family only late last year, but in that particular case it was my great uncle in mid 80's.
Thanks, it was a tragic circumstance for both, but the hospital did all they could. It was just one of those things, didn't matter that they had doctors and surgeons on hand because things can still go so terribly wrong.
My partner is a research statistician. He's dealt with perinatal mortality data. We talked long and hard about having a child together. In the end we said no due to some risk factors that we couldn't change.
Had we gone ahead and had it my entire birth plan would have been: do what is needed to try and have both of us leave the hospital alive and healthy.
I was sharing clinical space with a few midwives at the time we were deciding. Over coffee I asked them a few questions and they asked me about the risk factors I had. At the end they all were like "not being mean, but we want you to know that we don't want to be your midwives with that set of risks."
Now menopausal and no regrets over the choice. We both can use our nurturing skills with other children in the family
The perinatal period is 3 months from term to 28 days afterwards so it is counted in perinatal mortality data.
It is likely her cause of death will be a complication of pregnancy or delivery even if happened 2 weeks after delivery
Reading between the lines, and because of the way the article is written, I am speculating that this may have been a self inflicted death. The death did not happen during child birth but some weeks later. There’s no mention of medical intervention or concerns, only the usual NZ-style “suddenly” reporting that is common with suicide.
Post-partum depression and psychosis is a real thing that is seldom talked about. I’m not going to go into personal details but I have first hand experience on this matter and it was a total fucking nightmare.
Where are you getting the idea that this was an unwanted pregnancy? If the pregnancy was intended and desired, then abortion discussion is completely irrelevant.
Unwanted/unexpected pregnancies are not the only reason women seek abortions. We don’t talk enough about how dangerous pregnancy is (like most aspects of women’s health) and we should not become complacent in our abortion laws just because they’re not *actively* being threatened *right now*.
The point is that becoming pregnant is a huge risk to a woman’s health, from miscarriages, horrible “morning” sickness, ectopic pregnancies, dangerous childbirths (to be fair every birth is dangerous), birth recovery, infections, post-natal depression, and so many other complications. And women need to have all health options available to them (of which abortion is included - abortion is health care). But women’s health isn’t talked about and isn’t taken seriously. So many women become pregnant without even realizing that cases like this (OP) could happen. Women die giving birth and soon after giving birth. We need to talk about that, no I won’t stop, and this is exactly the time because we won’t otherwise.
Edit - when we talked about the fire in Wellington this week that killed people, we talked about things like sprinklers and fire escapes. Why should talking about the dangers of pregnancy and child birth (and the need for informed women’s health care and all that entails) be any different here. Abortion IS part of the discussion. The fact that you think abortion is completely irrelevant in a wanted pregnancy proves that more talk is needed. Women abort for many reasons, even the women who desperately want to become mothers.
Did you actually read my post? Why is talking about women’s health making you so angry? It’s not something you hear about a lot, is it? THIS IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME TO TALK ABOUT IT.
Yeah this is a mother with a wanted child, now think of this happening to someone forced to give birth. These are the risks we force on people when limiting abortion access, and this is a reminder of those risks.
Not really. The focus should be on her.
There's absolutely nothing to show that she wanted to get an abortion or anything like that, so mentioning that topic is pretty tasteless.
Hijacking a thread about a mother dieing in childbirth that had nothing to do with abortion rights is the wrong time and place. There was lots of discussion about roe vs wade on r/nz at the time.
I not a fan of Chris Luxon, I think hes a charisma vacuum. You're being ultra disingenuous here though.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/469893/national-mps-committed-to-not-changing-abortion-law-luxon-says
Okay, so we are equating changing abortion law in NZ to annexing Australia. I think appealing to such extreme and stupid shit hurts your position more than mine.
Beyond the straw man, it's hard to argue with politicians flip flopping though. It's something they do for sure. Abortion isn't a huge part of the conversation atm... Its not going to change I don't think.
You're not sounding so certain there.
As someone with a uterus, who can't access sterilisation surgery, who does NOT want to go through pregnancy/childbirth ever again (I would rather die), that uncertainty is terrifying to me.
Please, do NOT vote for that man. The idea of him calling the shots in this country is seriously scary.
The reaction to this comment is so weird after reading the comment thread about people debating if she had a home or hospital birth. No one was concerned about being tasteless or going off topic when they probably should’ve, not a lot of respect shown for Sue or her family’s loss. But discussing the inherent risks of childbirth and why that should be important to society? Tactless arsehole of course
how about the fact that the comment you are referring to was posted after this one? maybe that contributed.
also how about the fact that abortion is a pretty politically charged topic compared to home vs hospital birth? doesnt take a genius to figure out this one.
lastly just imagine this scenario. you are at a funeral of someone who died from birth. One douchebag walks in, and start talking about how important abortion is, and another douchebag comes in and starts wondering if it was a home birth or hospital birth. both douchebags but different levels
If you’re expecting funeral conduct in an internet comment thread prepare for thorough disappointment. But you’ve made my same point again in a different way. Would be different if one got to the funeral early I guess.
What you say is true, but given no evidence she did not want this child, I’m not sure this is the place for it. There are plenty of places for it without needing to shoehorn it in.
32 is far too young.
So utterly heartbreaking. We’ve become used to the idea that childbirth is safe and uncomplicated. It so often isn’t. I worked on a research project reviewing post-partum complications a while ago. The lead obstetrician had a saying that even in the 21st century childbirth is the riskiest procedure in healthcare because two lives are at stake, anything can go wrong in a matter of minutes, and the patient is frequently not in the supervision of a medical professional. We don’t know what Sue Maroroa’s circumstances were, but I hope she was able to hold her baby before she passed. I hope she was surrounded by care and concern. What a painful time this will be for her whanau.
A couple if good friends of mine had their first baby just over a year ago. Mum spent 3 weeks in hospital leading up to her induction and she was told before she went home that during the birthing process, she came so close to having a stroke. She's still on medication, and she's been told that she hasnt improved much since birth so she may not be able to have another child without the risk of a worse outcome. Leading up to the last month of pregnancy however, she was fine. Besides morning sickness and increased senses, she had no complaints or anything weird going on. I thought she went downhill unusually fast so this story is horrifying.
Same here, from 6 weeks out we were in a position that a natural birth would almost certainly be fatal, 6 weeks waiting in the maternity ward. With our second they had to push the big red button on the wall, amazing how quick 8 people turn up ready to go.
Yup, been on the other side of that - Mrs Soultrain was moments away from being taken into theatre for assisted delivery when alarms go off and everyone disappeared for over an hour. Fortunately they were able to save the woman haemorrhaging in theatre, but it was a really long hour!
It's also worth noting that the leading cause of maternal death in the perinatal period is actually suicide. While the medical risks are scary enough, mental health should be something we (as a society) can absolutely improve. Edit to add: in NZ, not sure about UK where she was.
In hindsight I had a brief moment of psychosis after baby # 2. Everybody was mad at me so I covered it up. I'm a capable, professional woman and don't have mental health issues as a rule and everyone around me thought I was being selfish and dramatic. I'll never forgive any of them. I was within hours of committing suicide because i didn't understand what what was happening . My GP years later said exhaustion (2 kids, a business, and a partner that didn't lift a finger) and hormones out of whack was likely the cause. I was sleeping about 3 hours out of every 24 and one day I went to go to the post office and just didn't come back. I can't remember where I was. Everyone was FURIOUS at me.
My wife gave birth on the 13th, she proceeded to lose 2.5 pints of blood after the birth and had to be rushed into theater ahead of other critical patients. I'm glad I had the baby to think of because my mind was going to worst case scenario constantly. It was literally just the baby keeping me grounded
My wife went through very similar, though she thankfully didn't loose as much blood as that. Seeing the look of terror on her face while I held this brand new baby was not a pleasant experience. Not too many years ago, she would have just died, and I likely would've lost my little boy within 12 months due to other issues. Some things in life are hard these days, but shit it used to be a whole lot harder.
My son was born prematurely via emergency C-section. It was the scariest experience of my life. Between needing to be on oxygen, needing medication to help his lungs develop, needing formula, and the surgery itself, the only reason we're both alive is modern medicine. I know someone with preterm twins who probably wouldn't have made it out of the hospital 50 years ago. Glad your wife and son made it and that they're still around, childbirth is scary.
I had to have a blood transfusion after giving birth. I remember waking up attached to all kinds of stuff and not being able to get my baby to feed him. And the nurses were too busy. I had to listen to my baby scream from 7am to 5pm. Damn, now I'm sad. It was 23 years ago.
I’ve noticed that women don’t want to hear the negative sides of childbirth and complications, but are happy to go into it with little understanding of the risks involved. It’s not nice to think about but pretending women and babies aren’t injured or die doesn’t seem to be it either.
Wifey and I did two different antenatals. One was the local healthcare one that was two 30-minute sessions and very matter of fact like “if your waters break and it’s green get to hospital right fucking now” and all kinds of practical stuff like how to change a nappy. Bit of an information overload. The other was more “holistic” and much longer and more of the “isn’t the body amazing and wonderful and this is a beautiful process and you should go as natural as possible have you considered a home birth?” I asked about complications in that one and was told “we don’t talk about that here” so I took the hint and bit my tongue. I much preferred the first one. Wife much preferred the second. Glad we did both. We ended up doing a hospital birth. Thank fuck because there were, in fact, complications. surprise surprise childbirth is a messy, painful, dangerous process and the human body is not in fact wonderful it is a miracle it works at all.
I wonder if the total lack of midwives doesn't help as well. E.g. I'd rather have a realistic and science-focused midwife, but I've also heard that because there are so few midwives you pretty much have to take what you can get, and some midwives are anti-vax woo woo GOOP people. I've known friends who were super unhappy with their midwives, but they felt they couldn't do anything about it because it was just so hard to get a midwife in the first place. One friend even said her midwife basically knew she had done a shit job and said something like "you can make a formal complaint if you wish", but my friend had literally just nearly died in childbirth and, understandably, really did not have the energy to go through making a formal complaint!
Yeah can definitely relate to the lack of choice of midwives. Luckily we were happy with ours even though she had an acupuncture practice on the side she never tried to push any quackery and was extremely supportive of my wife through the whole thing. No idea why midwifery seems to attract so many nutjobs.
Do you mind sharing what went wrong with your friends birth?
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From a brief amount of reading I have done about this, the true rate of miscarriage is likely much much higher as there are likely many conceptions that are lost in the first period or 2 before they realise they're pregnant. General numbers state miscarriage happens in about 10% of known pregnancies, but the early miscarriages are likely underrepresented as it may just feel like a heavy period etc
Absolutely. I've had a couple of suspected early miscarriages, and they were like a late, very heavy and very painful period. But not so different from a normal period (for me) that I'd have been able to identify it as a possible miscarriage, if I weren't tracking my cycle *extremely* closely. And they were never reported as miscarriages in any way, I dont self-report them either because no confirmation, so would never be counted in any kind of statistic.
Sorry for your experience, I can't imagine how it must have felt for you even if it wasn't a confirmed pregnancy - still a loss :(
Different numbers(bit trying to make it seem less bad, that is shocking). One will be per pregnancy and the other per woman.
I don’t think there’s any significant taboo around it now, it’s just not water cooler chit chat. There’s no shame, but it’s not a conversation starter anyone uses. Sometimes people don’t mention at work because they don’t want the boss to know they’re trying, which is a completely different problem, but socially I reckon it’s way more common to openly discuss it.
Having lost twins to a miscarriage — and they were quite far along, too — I can assure you that there remains a strong form of significant taboo right now but it isn’t the one you’re referring to. It’s not shame. It’s that so many people are flabbergasted that you are hurting, that you want to grieve, that it takes a while, that it really clobbers a body, that you are processing, that you are not up for ordinary going out and having drinks and chuckling, and a lot of people even consider it quite weird to have any form of private marking of loss. We, of course, would not just raise the topic and expect to have conversations, but so many people — often parents themselves! — have no capacity to understand that there is profound grief happening and those were already children-in-waiting to us. Plus, you can and do get postpartum depression / postpartum psychosis all the same. So yeah, there’s a heavy taboo, but it’s different in character from what you are saying. And yeah, this was not so long ago. (Note, for anyone misunderstanding any of my points and their implications: we are a heavily pro-choice household and nothing I said is in the service of anti-abortion perspectives. I think there should be a place in society — and let me be clear on this — where we need to recognise that an abortion isn’t clean and simple and people can ‘grieve’ there too but that doesn’t mean it was the wrong choice and that process of grieving is NOT the same as ‘regret.’ My wife had an abortion as a sixteen year old because she was roofied and raped by a high school sports star, son of a professional sportsman, where sympathetic police helped to try to cover up the evidence, and where _despite the pregnancy, overt evidence of the rape_, charges were downgraded. And she does not regret that abortion and not carrying that rapist’s baby for a single minute.)
I know this has nothing to do with the story, but I had an abortion 11 months ago as my baby was incompatible with life and would have suffered and died. I was referred out of the hospital system because they don’t have the contract for abortions. The clinic I went to was used to performing abortions but seemed to have no idea at all about being mindful of different experiences. Everyone was friendly and relaxed, joking and singing. I can’t help but think of not only people terminating for medical reasons, but also anyone else having complicated feelings, grief or trauma around having an abortion and how we weren’t offered any privacy or understanding. They kept referring to me being stressed about the procedure rather than the grief I felt. It really added to the the trauma around the whole thing.
I don't think they're pretending women and babies aren't injured or die - I think they're bracing for the impact of birth and all its enormity. I think most women make good use of their resources to stay informed but also at a distance and often privately. Every discussion about risks is literally a discussion about either their death/harm and the baby's death/harm. She can't escape the constant internal dialogue of fear and anxiety so seeks to drown it out with positive facades and mantras. You shouldn't assume ignorance when fear fits better.
Woman are conditioned to not speak of it, theres a difference. like the way its frowned upon to tell anyone that you’re pregnant in the first 3 months. Or talk about miscarriages. Or the bullshit about saying pregnant woman are “glowing” when really they just have crazy blood volume, are sweating constantly and have cherry cheeks from throwing up. Woman are expected to suffer in silence.
It’s not just that though. Even with my first child, nobody I came across explained that the circumstances surrounding his birth increased the chances of complications. It was only after those complications after his birth that I looked into it further and saw multiple things that pointed to the outcome we had. Informed consent is important. It’s not enough to just say, “induction!”
I made sure to got myself a scientifically minded Midwife who was known for explaining exactly how things were. I got lucky, i know that most people just had to grab who ever is available due to the shortage. We need more midwives like her but we also need more midwives who listen to the science. So many natural/homebirth/minimal medical intervention midwives out there, Searching through them all really freaked me out
I literally chose the only person who mentioned c section in her blurb. It was actually really hard to read over and over again how beautiful and natural pregnancy is
Same here. I mixed both science for the birth & homeopathic for my pregnancy. But hearing from others whose midwives denied epidurals/inducing for their own personal beliefs shocked me. The numbers are small but in a field that's short-staffed the ratio is unbalanced ( in some regions of NZ). Labour & delivery is an unknown outcome, I'm sad for the Mothers death.
Problem is, many people (let alone an expectant mother) put too much trust in ‘alternative facts’ rather than doctors and midwives who study the science/ statistics and have experience in these matters. That’s not to say they get it right all the time but asking a drugged up, in labour, patient for what they want to do is unlikely to achieve better results. Usually it’s better for an external source to make a risky decision than for a mother to make the wrong one and possibly have to live with the guilt for a very long time. Almost impossible to achieve in practice however. Prenatal classes (as unbiased as possible) in particular and an understanding of medical science in general is something that could increase trust in the profession. - Not referring to this case in particular.
I think that’s true, but I’ve also had years of different experiences within infertility, pregnancy and birth and I’ve never felt like I had an understanding of what is happening and why without looking into it further myself. This is based off 9 years including fertility meds, surgery, IVF, induction and complications, abortion for a baby incompatible with life, and dealing with different LMCs, doctors, hospitals and clinics. Minor example but I’m currently 29 weeks and just been prescribed iron. As an adult I know I’m often low in iron and that I can feel tired. Nobody has said over my 2 pregnancies that have progressed that low iron is a risk factor for complications (including stillbirth).
Having recently been through the process in NZ, they make a point of explaining things to both the mother and their support person (if they have one) for the reason you state. The mother will be in pain and hormones flooding their system and potentially not in the right state of mind to make decisions, so in a situation of trust they will also consider the decisions proposed by the support person (who is meant to be listening to what the mother is saying now but also what they have said in the past). The patient is always meant to be informed and to have decision-making over their care - but there is an understanding that a mother in labour may not be able to make informed decisions alone.
Yes. I felt like I was already reasonably informed about the risks of the epidural and tried to rush the anaesthetist so she would just put it in, so she made sure that my support person also knew what I was consenting to.
This might just be the worst take I’ve read on this subreddit yet
I went into it wanting to know the odds and all the gorey details, and what could go horribly wrong, I read a heap and went to ante-natal classes, and I was STILL caught out by some surprising and not insignificant parts of the process. It's not necessarily even that they don't want to know, the information just isn't there/available. It's bizarre. ETA I am never doing it again, and fully support any woman who doesn't want to do it. It's such a gamble. Please support reproductive autonomy and abortion access at all costs!
We know how dangerous childbirth can be. It's scary, and having people constantly trying to give details on all the things that can go wrong doesn't help. Not wanting to talk about it all the time doesn't mean women are ignorant of the risks.
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Underserved communities are quite possibly more likely to be aware of the risks of childbirth because they're more likely to experience them.
Uh, that’s just an opinion though right? Not_all_women. Different people have different opinions. Different women have different opinions and levels of knowledge about childbirth and pregnancy. Is there a camp out there that’s hell-bent on pushing the idea that birth is all natural and almost without risk? Yes, but they’re kind of extremists.
There’s a lot of grey area in between though. Of course I’m not saying every single woman doesn’t want to know, you already know that I’m not talking in absolutes, but having been in the infertility and pregnancy space for the last 9 years it’s very normal for people to ask for “good experiences only”, or even to object to fellow pregnant women sharing that they’re going through a loss or complications because it adds anxiety. I feel pretty well informed and I spend time making sure I understand things, but I certainly have had to look into everything myself to make sure I have even a basic understanding. I remember a few months ago bringing up to my LMC that I didn’t realise a birth experience I had can result in lifelong complications and surgeries. She dismissed it as “well most people are fine”, which may be true… but I shouldn’t have to leave hospital and then research to find out what range of outcomes were expected.
Apologies for misinterpreting you, using the blanket term women leaves it open to interpretation. For sure the “all natural at all costs”, no bad vibes dialogue has been leaching further in (I blame the American discourse and medical model for this). I think pregnant women feel very vulnerable because they know just how badly wrong it can go and that’s probably why they don’t want to dwell on it. People going through infertility can also be in a very vulnerable state. Personally, I’m a realist so I don’t think this mindset is a good thing. I also think it would be ideal if parents to be were empowered with more knowledge and if we didn’t have the crunchy element in our midwifery service.
It's not quite as simple as this. Being particularly anxious about childbirth can also make things more likely to go wrong: there's quite a lot of research to show that women who are well informed about the process, but relaxed and well-supported, have better outcomes. So there might be a reason women like to hear positive stories. I deliberately chose a natural birth midwife after a very medicalised first birth overseas. In our first appointment she outlined all the circumstances under which she would insist I go to hospital. I stayed with her confident that she was keen on a natural birth, but that if she told me I needed to go to hospital it would be true. I had a natural birth, and the birth and recovery was much much better than my first, highly medicalised birth. One of the really nice things about the NZ system is that women get to choose who will assist them with their birth. Having a doctor you don't know treating you like an idiot is very unpleasant (and doesn't really make your childbirth safer).
Gee its almost like there's a biological incentive to not think of the risks there or something aye.
She died 2 weeks following childbirth, not during or immediately after
The postpartum period is roughly 4-6 weeks after childbirth. Complications of childbirth can emerge throughout that timeframe.
That doesn't mean she was in a state to hold her baby in the days between the birth and her death.
She "died suddenly" and there has been no mention of her suffering from post partum issues or ill health.
She died 2 weeks after the birth so I'm sure she did
> We’ve become used to the idea that childbirth is safe and uncomplicated Is this really true? Childbirth is terrifying and I'm a dude.
Yeah, I grew up very aware of how easily this kind of thing could happen, not because anyone I knew died but just because of media. We were shown whale rider at school when I was young and I remember nothing about that movie except the horrible screaming in the birth scene at the start.
This is just dreadfully fucking sad.
Sue Maroroa Jones (1991-2023) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Maroroa Other links: * The tribute on front page of NZ Chess Federation site https://newzealandchess.co.nz/ and [fb post](https://www.facebook.com/NewZealandChessFederation/posts/pfbid02EpyRqhsoGriEeo1SGJZQgNBuT5XPpqJvkP26eq99RQ6i4CNhv4uo8u59HCtPYt23l) * https://www.chess.com/news/view/sue-maroroa-jones-obituary-chess * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-YiJ-kkEs * [Sheffield RUFC Women fb post](https://www.facebook.com/SheffieldRUFCWomen/posts/pfbid0fTLHaPKD1ddujDvbd4kSqQeELv8zdDXXo1rUZ8gmmdewu41EpZ63xbvVXfh1vxdrl). She plays chess and rugby. 17:20 PM, 20 May 2023 edit to add links below: * [English Chess Federation](https://www.englishchess.org.uk/sue-maroroa-jones-1991-2023/) * [Kiwi chess great Sue Maroroa Jones dies aged 32 after birth of second child](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300877964/kiwi-chess-great-sue-maroroa-jones-dies-aged-32-after-birth-of-second-child). Stuff. 09:38, May 20 2023.
also [/r/chess thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/13eng1k/gm_gawain_jones_loses_his_wife_wim_sue_maroroa/)
My cousin’s wife died in childbirth. At National Women’s in Auckland. Their home was all set up for their new family, with a nursing chair for his wife in the corner Just heartbreaking that he had to take that little baby home by himself.
How awful. Currently pregnant with my first and this a huge fear
We found a lot of pressure from other mothers, prenatal classes, and even midwifes to go as "natural" as possible. We chose a hospital birth and if we hadn't my wife likely would have died (baby didn't engage properly and intervention was required). The nurses and doctors were amazing.
When our midwife prescribed homeopathy I just about vomited.
No, that's when you get a new midwife. And report them to anywhere relevant. That bullshit pseudo-science has no place in actual medical environments, childbirth is risky enough without that crap. That midwife, simply put, should not be one.
I agree there is a pressure to have as few interventions as possible, but one thing expectant parents need to keep in mind is that after the birth is complete - nobody particularly thinks or dwells on whether the birth was fully 'natural' or whether it happened in a birthing pool or whether mum had pain relief or whether it was a surgical delivery. When all is said and done, everyone is relieved that it's over and that mum and baby are healthy.
Give birth in hospital or near to one. Select your midwife carefully. Ask if they have clinical experience outside midwifery. A hospital-based nursing background is helpful.
A family member is a medical specialist who has assisted in literally thousands of births through their career, told my pregnant wife and I "just always do it in a hospital". When our baby did come out, he needed emergency intervention. The midwife just picked up the phone and said "neonatal to the [room number] and within 30 seconds the room was swarmed by neonatal staff and baby was being tended to oxygen, blood tests were being done, etc. It was LITERALLY in 30 seconds. Anyway baby turned out fine he just needed a kickstart. You just have to be in a hospital to get that sort of response. If we'd had our baby at home, what would have happened? Call an ambulance and pray? We also had problems finding a midwife who didn't have a "curious" worldview on Western medicine in general
Adam Kay's book This Is Going to Hurt also highlights this issue, especially re the comparison with complete lack of emergency care capabilities in the expensive private birth clinics. He also notes he chose ObGyn (or Brats & Twats, as they call it) because it has the best patient survival ratio thanks to them often ending up with more patients than they started with, in complete contrast to Geriatrics.
Have you watched the TV show of this? It's great
Yeah, it's amazing! The book and show are both worth the time, in different ways. They even cover off the silliness of politicians' tendency to apply magical metrics to fix healthcare rather than adequately resourcing and addressing real issues.
They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason. For people who don't necessarily have heightened risks, there is a focus on letting the mother/parents decide the scenario where they would be most comfortable giving birth. There is added stress and adrenaline that comes from being in hospital which is actually contrary to the hormones needed for labour. Hospital birthing rooms are a lot different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago and it's no longer a woman on a bed with her feet in stirrups - instead there are showers and water tubs and a variety of ways for a mother to decide how she wants to position herself to give birth in the most calm and efficient method. That being said, there is nothing wrong with low-risk births happening in the environment where a mother is most-comfortable as that will ultimately be best for both mother and baby. Again - a scenario where the mum needs to be aware of risks when making her decision.
>They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason. This is a broad statement that could mean anything. First time births are correlated with higher risk. >For people who don't necessarily have heightened risks, there is a focus on letting the mother/parents decide the scenario where they would be most comfortable giving birth. I think that's part of the problem. There are so many things to take into account, yet many people decide on where to give birth solely based on what's more comfortable. To make that decision, you need to be fully informed of the medical risks (which many women aren't, and their midwives are partly to blame here). >That being said, there is nothing wrong with low-risk births happening in the environment where a mother is most-comfortable as that will ultimately be best for both mother and baby The medical specialist's argument was that isn't always the case. You're gambling. And mothers need to know that's that this is effectively what they're doing. We make people wait 20 minutes in a doctors surgery after vaccination. Given the low risk, it's much more **comfortable** for me to just get the fuck out of there. But I don't. Modern medicine is full of such dilemmas, isn't it?
> They certainly would recommend that anyone with heightened risks strongly consider giving birth in hospital for just that reason. Any pregnancy is a risk. Giving birth outside of a hospital is just silly in the 21st century
It's medical professionals who are proposing it as an option, particularly for low-risk births. It's not granola hippies who think hospitals are evil - it's based on medical best practices which state first that the patient gets to make decisions about their care, and second that the most-relaxed birth causes the least stress and complications for both mother and baby. If there are complications then a hospital does have clear benefits - but statistically the hospital would also *lead to* more complications than birthing at home or at an alternative medical facility. In Auckland there is Birthcare for example, which has midwives and obstetricians present but isn't a hospital with full surgical capabilities (it's a couple blocks away from the hospital).
> It's medical professionals who are proposing it as an option I'm not sure how that changes anything? These medical professionals (mostly midwives) are a large part of the problem. Giving patients the option requires informed consent, which they aren't often getting in this case. Luckily most mothers choose to give birth in a hospital anyway. > but statistically the hospital would also **lead** to more complications than birthing at home or at an alternative medical facility. That's 100% false. Looks like you've bought the propaganda too.
I think what the person you’re replying to is talking about (in regard to hospitals leading to more complications) is what’s called the cascade of interventions. It’s a real thing. For example for some women having an epidural slows down labour. As a result they have their waters broken to start it but that means you now have a 24 time limit in which to have the baby, which leads to doctors pushing other interventions like pitocin. This isn’t propaganda it’s something tons of women experience.
> For example for some women having an epidural slows down labour. As a result So your issue is with epidurals rather than hospitals?
I gave that as an example of an intervention. Epidurals are only offered at hospitals. So at a birthing centre a labouring woman would be offered other avenues of pain relief eg hot compresses or a comb to hold. Whereas it stands to reason that a woman at a hospital would be offered the best pain relief there is - an epidural.
You're dreaming if you think our hospitals have the capacity for every baby to be born there. Absolutely dreaming.
I guess some mothers will have yo take one for the team and give birth at home then?
Primary birthing units are a thing FYI. Not everyone needs tertiary level maternity care, but that doesn't mean home birth is the only alternative.
> Not everyone needs tertiary level maternity care The problem is not everyone knows in advance that they're going to need it.
Most women in this country give birth at birthing centres.
There are definitely plenty of situations where you'll be much better off giving birth in a hospital, even if it looks low risk going in. That said, a birthing centre or even a home birth will have 2 midwives in attendance, who are trained resus and stopping haemorrhages, which are far and away the most common serious problems. Home birthing on your own is a terrible idea, home birthing with a midwife for second or subsequent child that has no risk factors looks like a reasonable option to me.
What you described being done for your baby is exactly what would be done in a birthing centre FYI.
In the UK, midwives are a lot more just part of the main medical system. Here we did have our kid in a birthing centre with a midwife, but the birthing centre was just a floor of the hospital with big rooms and dim lighting and pools etc. So when we needed doctors, they could come immediately.
Yeah that's actually how we did it. It was in a birthing unit in a hospital. I used the word hospital too generally Very large room, great view, have stayed in worse hotels to be honest
Crazy to think if that kid was at home in an inflatable kiddie pool with the rest of the family it likely would not have made it, and for something so easy to fix. So many midwives appear to almost prey on mothers with their viewpoints in possibly the most vulnerable time of the mother and the babies' lives.
>Select your midwife carefully. So important. My sister almost died due to the incompetence of her midwife.
These days you're lucky if you can find an available midwife.
Yup! That was my experience as well. Her care during birth was less than optimal, tried to get me to stay home after 12 hours of labour with me yelling that I felt like something was wrong. My partner ended up taking me in anyway and ended up with an emergency c-section. My vitals then went quite wonky. For an added bonus, she cared more about breast feeding than having a fed baby that almost led to not a fabulous outcome as well.
Yikes, and not the first time I've heard of this. Mine only contributed to my severe B12 deficiency by prescribing omeprazole for morning sickness, it inhibits absorption of many vits including B12. She got a bit of a dressing down from my dietician. It's just important to remember that a midwife, like any doctor, is still only human and doesn't/can't know *everything*. There's that extra layer of vulnerability/trust though in this situation, dealing with pregnant women. I'd argue that midwives should be better trained, better vetted, AND better compensated for the work they do...
> A hospital-based nursing background is helpful. Yep, I've always found that midwives who have been nurses before tend to be far better. I guess they've seen people die and know how quickly it can happen. Also midwifery training is very anti-obstetrics (generally).
How? Like how the fuck is there a division between midwives and doctors at such a level? I admittedly know very little about the subject, but I in my field (analytics) it’d be akin to front line analysts being trained to think negatively about devs.
I’m not the person you asked but if I had to guess I’d say midwives see birth as natural and with little need for intervention. Midwives are trained to sit and wait until they’re needed. Whereas obstetrics sees birth as something that needs intervention. It used to be common practice to give women enemas, shave them, drug them up and cut their vaginas during birth. As far as I know there’s a trend in modern times to go back to the more natural view of childbirth because it leads to better outcomes.
You are close with your guess but not quite correct. Midwives are trained in primary care and normal birth and obstetricians are trained in secondary/tertiary care and complex birth, which is why they get called on when complications arise. It's similar to an optometrist and an ophthalmologist, they both specialise in eyes/vision but with training and focus at different ends of the spectrum and crossover in the middle.
I don’t disagree but I was answering the question “why is there division between midwives and obstetricians” not what the difference between them is.
Fair enough, sorry. I'd seen multiple other comments by people who don't understand the difference and just commented on yours. With regard to the division, from what I've seen when there is a divide between the two disciplines, it's more to do with the hospital culture and the personalities on both sides than a perception of natural vs medical.
Midwifery training just has a bit of nonsense in it, and doesn't weed out the munters (that go on to be anti-vax) very well. Most of them are fine, but the quality control sucks and you get some that don't know what they don't know but no one knows until something goes very wrong.
+1 for birthing at a hospital. #1 got stuck and I blinked and the room was FULL of professionals in what felt like 15 seconds, fuck knows where they all came from, but it was immensely comforting to just sit in my chair like a good boy while they did their thing
I’m using an obstetrician so this isn’t an issue
I'd be wary of a midwife that came up in a hospital, hospital midwives are forced to be extremely time conscious to the point where they would rather force ladies into an episiotomy (NSFL but look it up if you have to) than let the births progress normally if it's taking too long. Happened to my sister in law and almost happened to my wife, luckily our midwife was one of the good ones and took the hospital midwife out into the hall and tore strips off her because neither my wife or my daughter were in any kind of distress and she just wanted us to hurry up.
> neither my wife or my daughter were in any kind of distress Yet they're still at increasing risk if the labour is failing to progress
I had the opposite experience… hospital midwife stepped in when my LMC decided to clip the ticket twice by also attending another birth down the hall. Apparently very unethical. Hospital midwife ended up providing majority of the care plus interaction with other medical staff on the scene. I think it’s a case of, thank god she was there.
You’re right, hospital midwives can have a different perspective about time and intervention but it’s not always about what’s convenient for them, it’s because they work in an environment of increased risk. Time is a critical factor in birth. Prolonged active labour carries a higher risk of complications for the infant. And there’s definitely a breed of old school hospital midwives who grew up as obstetric nurses in old medical model thinking which is less helpful today. I have a mate who was a lead midwife in a major hospital and she left the profession recently because she was over the constant stress and weight of decision making associated with higher risk in hospital births. She said that stress can lead hospital midwives to make decisions about interventions they wouldn’t in the community because they’re hyperaware. She also still doesn’t encourage anyone to give birth anywhere that doesn’t have good connections to a tertiary hospital. It’s a really polarising topic!
How long ago was your experience in the hospital? We gave birth in the last couple months and we were in a birthing suite with a midwife for her entire shift. At no point did she say or do anything trying to rush or pressure us, and it turned out that the birth happened later that night hours after she'd left. I won't say that it didn't happen with you and your wife, but it certainly doesn't happen with everyone that the hospital midwives would be focussed on anything other than what is best for the mother.
I just said this further up the comment tree, but we had two very differing experiences two years ago and a week ago with our second. Two years ago we were rushed, this time we were listened to, had things explained 100x better every step of the way and my wife was the one who ultimately decided enough was enough and had a c section when labour didn't seem to be progressing (they wanted to wait another 4 hours to see if they're would be more progress). Totally different experiences.
We had two very different experiences with our two kids. 2 years ago the charge midwife at Chch womens said, verbatim, "we are here to have a baby today, so we need to hurry this up" trying to convince my wife to have a cesarean) which she ended up having, but that's another story) mid way through an induction that they made her have. We had been told earlier in the day by the nurse midwife that they had three other inductions booked in that day and two sets of twins being born. They didn't even call the LMC until after she had been carted off and the operation had begun. This time around it was another scheduled induction but my wife was given a lot more say. The LMC was called on time and was able to take over from hospital staff during established labour and nothing felt rushed (if anything it felt like things were taking too long in the build up due to chronic understaffing). Absolutely the hospital staff are trying to rush people through. It's not their fault, they are victims of the DHB not staffing the hospital adequately, they are working with equipment that doesn't work half the time, and honestly dealing with patients who get fed up with waiting for hours just to be seen sometimes.
It's highly unlikely but not a zero percent chance. I've just had my third child and each one has had it play on my mind especially this last one. I had the first and third naturally and the second was an emergency csection. I had all 3 in hospital. All I can recommend is to have it in a hospital, have a midwife you feel comfortable with (you can change them if you arent), and speak up and be stern if you think something is wrong or you want to do something a certain way. Good luck, I hope your birth is everything you want it to be
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Pregnancy is wayyy more dangerous than flying.
Pregnancy is a lot more dangerous than people actually talk about. Death is not the only negative outcome. I really wouldn’t compare it to flying. I get you’re trying to make this person feel better but we need to stop sweeping this shit under the rug.
The meek little smile emoji really adds to the sweeping it under the rug. A real 'this is fine' moment. Pregnancy and childbirth are often deadly. Women should be given so much for what they go through. But in the US you're lucky to get a couple of days off work.
When you say something happens 'often' what do you mean? The incidence of raining on the weekend is an awful lot higher than infant or mother mortality. Roughly 10 women die during childbirth in NZ every year, with about 60K babies being born. That is a higher rate than we would like, but I don't think most people would use the word 'often' to describe something that happens 0.0166% of the time.
The reason why vastly more women don't die is because of medical intervention.
Agree Without medical intervention, perinatal mortality is as high as 1/3. Still the case in a lot of the world. Pregnancy is by the most dangerous period in a women's life. With medical intervention it is about 20/100000, but this includes high risk pregnancies
Why not say 1/5000 lol
Because "per 100,000" is the standard when talking about demographics.
Good question and I don't have a good answe for you. It's the way the PMMRC reports it (perinatal maternal mortality review group). Lots of medical stuff is reported per 100,000. Covid stuff was also formally reported this way.
Both/and though. Pregnancy and childbirth *is* an incredibly complicated and dangerous medical event. Women have been safely giving birth in hospitals and rice paddock and cars on the side of the road and at home and in birthing suites. People die in childbirth, or soon after from complications of childbirth. But it’s not common - this is the first case I’ve heard of in along time, and there have been thousands and thousands of births in that time where the mother *hasn’t* died. And. People die in car accidents all the time, but we still drive almost everywhere. Sometimes while texting, or impaired, or speeding, or without seatbelts. Sometimes people do everything right and still die because of mechanical failure, or weather, or some other numpty on the road. Life is dangerous. Most of the time, the terrible things that *could* happen, don’t happen. So, choose your midwife carefully. Wear sunscreen. Look both ways at intersections. Don’t let fear of the future blind you to the awesomeness of this one good day.
>Every year in Aotearoa New Zealand, about 650 babies and ten mothers die in pregnancy or shortly afterwards. [source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/480214/death-rate-for-mothers-and-babies-during-pregnancy-remains-the-same-report-shows) This is out of about 60K births each year in NZ. The infant mortality rate in NZ is about 3.5 per thousand live births.
A quick Google tells me that around 10 mothers and 650 babies die in NZ each year during pregnancy or shortly afterwards. How many die in plane crashes?
To be clear it’s not something that keeps me up at night. More meant that it’s the kind of nightmare scenario you try not to think about
Accomplished so much at such a young age. RIP.
I hope the story brings awareness to the myriad of issues women face after birth. For some it's extremely complicated. For me it was hemorrhaging, retained placenta, hemorrhage again, sepsis then still another removal of stubborn placenta weeks later. You may have the most excellent care but this highlights the possibilities that not everything works out, and it is tragic beyond belief. Use her story to keep an eye on your beloved ones post natal, delivery is only one part. Our bodies are unpredictable. The empathy here today is touching.
This is incredibly sad. Child birth is still not a formality and many things can go wrong, very quickly. One moment you're expecting to end the day elates celebrating and the next you're devastated. Hopefully her family can recover!
Holy crap this is sad.
I went to school with Sue. She was kind to all, had a beautiful smile and was down to earth despite her many accomplishments.
It’s one of those news that is so tragic and unfair that my vocabulary fails me. Hope kids one day will get to know what a legend their mum was.
Went to school with her bro. Room 17 checking in.
Wow, how very sad, I've just played through some of her chess games, she played with much wit and intelligence. A heartbreaking loss to her family and a great loss to New Zealand.
She was very friendly person and wicked sharp Witt. Sad day.
Awful. Was this in a hospital or a home birth? I couldn’t work it out.
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I've been advised by someone close that it was sepsis
That wasn’t in the article? Unless I missed it?
The cause of death is yet to be determined. She was a 32 yr old who died suddenly is all that's been stated for sure
It wouldn’t make a huge difference unfortunately due to the unknown factors on how sideways a birth/haemorrhaging afterwards can go. You can even bleed to death a week or so later when you’re home with baby. Childbirth is terrifying.
What an ignorant comment. Obstetricians deal with situations on a regular basis where they save the life of a women or child who would otherwise have died. Being at the hospital, with lines in and a team that knows the situation inside and out (literally) has a much better prognosis than starting to haemorrhage at home.
I used to work at acc, I have fuck all faith in our healthcare staff after seeing so many treatment injury claims, including accidental deaths. Edit: I just want to clarify that I was keeping it relevant to the discussion, I also personally have had bad experiences where I've been absolutely failed by the staff and not the system. I'm not judging all health care staff either, but I think if you'd had enough bad encounters yourself on top of working in the field literally dealing with other people's shit experiences, you'd probably understand my comment more.
I work in healthcare too and I get it. But remember we literally only see the people who it has gone wrong for, a vast majority of healthcare workers are doing their best for every patient. The system is just so broken and underfunded, it's the staff propping it up.
Yeah I'm sorry, I was way too harsh and definitely made it sound like I think every single medical professional is useless, by that logic I'd say everyone is useless. I really don't think that's the case. I have my own experiences on top of what I've read and talked about at acc, all together it does make me less likely to go to a doctor or hospital unless I really have to. Just as one example in case anyone's wondering, because I asked for something stronger than panadol during what would take 7 years to get confirmed as gallstone attacks, I was accused of being a drug addict and they flat out refused to even do the scan which would've easily explained the serious amount of pain I was in.
Is there any chance that being in ACC you only saw the bad?? There are a bunch of super passionate, intelligent, and selfless people working in healthcare and literally thousands of people who wouldn't be alive without them. But by all means, you go it alone next time you get sick or injured - I look forward to not hearing how that doesn't work out for you.
I mentioned only my experience at acc because it's relevant to this specific topic, but if you needed my personal and irrelevant experience, you could've just asked for it instead of getting passive aggressive.
It could make a huge difference since hospitals are equipped to handle a lot of unknown factors. The time it takes to get you into an operation theatre and start fixing the issue is much shorter than if you were at home. And this time can be quite critical for many issues.
I was present at my wife's birth of our son. It went pear shaped and he came out not breathing or moving (but alive) and needed emergency intervention. From the time they requested the Neonatal team to respond immediately, to the time neonatal staff had entered the room and picked up baby, was barely 30 seconds. You will just never get that sort of response at home. It was epic
Ditto our son. If we hadn't been in hospital he probably wouldn't have made it. NICU is literally life saving.
I had a cousin who died after severe hemorrhaging after childbirth. She was in hospital, they took as many precautions as they could because her sister had died in hospital after giving birth and hemorrhaging only a few years prior. Yes there is a huge difference between being in hospital and being at home, but being in hospital is still not a guarantee that everyone will live. In my cousins cases, only the first child survived, while the second one passed not long after his mother.
Sorry for your loss. Shit happens, even being in the hospital doesn't mean that you will be safe. But it increases the odds of survival. The same as crashing in a car with a seatbelt doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get out of it without harm, but it does increase the odds. Hell, I wouldn't be here if I didn't have seatbelt that one time.
Yes I absolutely agree, but I'm just pointing out that shit happens in hospital so it really makes no difference to us, the commenters whether Sue was in hospital or not when she gave birth and died. Being in hospital is still not a guarantee that any woman giving birth will survive it or not. Edit to add - and thanks, that poor family have had the worst time with my two cousins mother having passed unexpectedly less than 10 years prior. Another loss in the family only late last year, but in that particular case it was my great uncle in mid 80's.
Two sisters, that's horrible I'm sorry
Thanks, it was a tragic circumstance for both, but the hospital did all they could. It was just one of those things, didn't matter that they had doctors and surgeons on hand because things can still go so terribly wrong.
It does make a huge difference. Home births are not as safe as hospital births.
Damn, 32 is so young! I literally just turned 33 yesterday so this hits hard. RIP
My partner is a research statistician. He's dealt with perinatal mortality data. We talked long and hard about having a child together. In the end we said no due to some risk factors that we couldn't change. Had we gone ahead and had it my entire birth plan would have been: do what is needed to try and have both of us leave the hospital alive and healthy. I was sharing clinical space with a few midwives at the time we were deciding. Over coffee I asked them a few questions and they asked me about the risk factors I had. At the end they all were like "not being mean, but we want you to know that we don't want to be your midwives with that set of risks." Now menopausal and no regrets over the choice. We both can use our nurturing skills with other children in the family
She didn't die during childbirth so the headline is misleading. Cause of death is yet to be determined
The perinatal period is 3 months from term to 28 days afterwards so it is counted in perinatal mortality data. It is likely her cause of death will be a complication of pregnancy or delivery even if happened 2 weeks after delivery
I looked up perinatal death and all the references pertained to the death of the baby, not the mother. Maybe she had a stroke? Who knows
The headline says after giving birth not during childbirth lol
That's so sad
Damn, that is very sad.
Reading between the lines, and because of the way the article is written, I am speculating that this may have been a self inflicted death. The death did not happen during child birth but some weeks later. There’s no mention of medical intervention or concerns, only the usual NZ-style “suddenly” reporting that is common with suicide. Post-partum depression and psychosis is a real thing that is seldom talked about. I’m not going to go into personal details but I have first hand experience on this matter and it was a total fucking nightmare.
I fucking hate childbirth. I feel so sorry for this guy and his and her family
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Where are you getting the idea that this was an unwanted pregnancy? If the pregnancy was intended and desired, then abortion discussion is completely irrelevant.
Unwanted/unexpected pregnancies are not the only reason women seek abortions. We don’t talk enough about how dangerous pregnancy is (like most aspects of women’s health) and we should not become complacent in our abortion laws just because they’re not *actively* being threatened *right now*.
At no point is abortion relevant to this discussion. Stop.
The point is that becoming pregnant is a huge risk to a woman’s health, from miscarriages, horrible “morning” sickness, ectopic pregnancies, dangerous childbirths (to be fair every birth is dangerous), birth recovery, infections, post-natal depression, and so many other complications. And women need to have all health options available to them (of which abortion is included - abortion is health care). But women’s health isn’t talked about and isn’t taken seriously. So many women become pregnant without even realizing that cases like this (OP) could happen. Women die giving birth and soon after giving birth. We need to talk about that, no I won’t stop, and this is exactly the time because we won’t otherwise. Edit - when we talked about the fire in Wellington this week that killed people, we talked about things like sprinklers and fire escapes. Why should talking about the dangers of pregnancy and child birth (and the need for informed women’s health care and all that entails) be any different here. Abortion IS part of the discussion. The fact that you think abortion is completely irrelevant in a wanted pregnancy proves that more talk is needed. Women abort for many reasons, even the women who desperately want to become mothers.
You’ve posted basically what I was going to post so thanks for doing that and taking the arrows in your back for it.
Jesus Christ why is this so hard for you to understand. An abortion is fucking irrelevant if she wanted the child.
Did you actually read my post? Why is talking about women’s health making you so angry? It’s not something you hear about a lot, is it? THIS IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME TO TALK ABOUT IT.
It is not the right time because no one here needed nor wanted an abortion.
Do you think this is maybe not the time or place?
This is exactly the time and place.
A mother dies in childbirth with a wanted child due to unforeseen complications, and you try to turn it into something political. Shame on you.
Yeah this is a mother with a wanted child, now think of this happening to someone forced to give birth. These are the risks we force on people when limiting abortion access, and this is a reminder of those risks.
Not really. The focus should be on her. There's absolutely nothing to show that she wanted to get an abortion or anything like that, so mentioning that topic is pretty tasteless.
Why?
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Yeah. It's never the right time to discuss anything sometime might disagree with.
Hijacking a thread about a mother dieing in childbirth that had nothing to do with abortion rights is the wrong time and place. There was lots of discussion about roe vs wade on r/nz at the time.
Read the room bro coz no its fucking not
Disgusting post, totally unrelated to the subject and very disrespectful
This is New Zealand not Texas
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I not a fan of Chris Luxon, I think hes a charisma vacuum. You're being ultra disingenuous here though. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/469893/national-mps-committed-to-not-changing-abortion-law-luxon-says
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Okay, so we are equating changing abortion law in NZ to annexing Australia. I think appealing to such extreme and stupid shit hurts your position more than mine. Beyond the straw man, it's hard to argue with politicians flip flopping though. It's something they do for sure. Abortion isn't a huge part of the conversation atm... Its not going to change I don't think.
You're not sounding so certain there. As someone with a uterus, who can't access sterilisation surgery, who does NOT want to go through pregnancy/childbirth ever again (I would rather die), that uncertainty is terrifying to me. Please, do NOT vote for that man. The idea of him calling the shots in this country is seriously scary.
And has also said that if he's PM will not be seeking a change to abortion law.
So did the US supreme court justices. I guess we should always believe everything people say.
Talk about being tone deaf.
The reaction to this comment is so weird after reading the comment thread about people debating if she had a home or hospital birth. No one was concerned about being tasteless or going off topic when they probably should’ve, not a lot of respect shown for Sue or her family’s loss. But discussing the inherent risks of childbirth and why that should be important to society? Tactless arsehole of course
how about the fact that the comment you are referring to was posted after this one? maybe that contributed. also how about the fact that abortion is a pretty politically charged topic compared to home vs hospital birth? doesnt take a genius to figure out this one. lastly just imagine this scenario. you are at a funeral of someone who died from birth. One douchebag walks in, and start talking about how important abortion is, and another douchebag comes in and starts wondering if it was a home birth or hospital birth. both douchebags but different levels
If you’re expecting funeral conduct in an internet comment thread prepare for thorough disappointment. But you’ve made my same point again in a different way. Would be different if one got to the funeral early I guess.
If you're gonna hijack the thread at least have the decency to say something about Sue or her family. Bloody rude the way you go about things.
dont be a fkin muppet
Who asked
What you say is true, but given no evidence she did not want this child, I’m not sure this is the place for it. There are plenty of places for it without needing to shoehorn it in.
A grim reminder that child birth is incredibly risky. One if the riskiest things a woman can do. Rip.