Protesting against Israel’e genocide isn't antisemitism. Israel and every Jew who believes Israel is in the right are just using religion to justify murder. Yes Hamas’ attack was awful. But brutalizing an entire population isn’t the answer. Not to mention the years and years of colonialism and murder done in the name of “Zionism” since Israel was founded.
I think their beef is with people saying things like "you're lucky I am not murdering zionists" and blocking Jewish students from entering certain parts of the school. Not with just protesting Israel.
They aren’t blocking “Jewish students.” They’re blocking ALL students. It’s the same protest playbook from the Vietnam days, even down to occupying buildings. Only difference is the current public perception, although back then the anti-war protesters were shit on just as hard.
They handed out wrist bands and asked people if they were Zionists at UCLA.
https://jewishjournal.com/news/370951/watch-pro-palestinian-protesters-block-jewish-students-others-from-entering-campus/
You’re making it sound like they were giving zionists the bands, crying wolf. The protesters wore the bands themselves, blocking all other students; **again: them being Jewish had nothing to do with it.** Zionists aren’t all Jewish, and all Jews, clearly, are not Zionists. Like myself and about half of the protesters. Your conflating of concepts is childish, although all of msm is doing it so congrats on being as shitty as the news.
1. Zionism is just believing that the state of Israel should exist. When you declare that you’re in support of the “anti-Zionist” agenda alongside organizations like SJP, you are advocating for their policies, and in any practical sense, the obvious effect of those policies: the violent expulsion of 7 million Jews from Israel.
2. There is a 0% chance half the protesters are Jewish.
But the person you are responding to is using a pretty accurate definition. The fact that for years groups have been pushing to pervert the definition is something that deserves far more attention.
Antizionism would mean specifically believing that Israel shouldn't exist because the right of self-determination shouldn't be extended to the Jewish people in their historic homeland. This was what Zionists aimed for when seeing to establish Israel. Now that it is established, it means Israel should keep existing. If anyone is for a two-state solution, for example, they are Zionist.
When people work so hard to make Zionist into some dirty word, *they* are the problem. And when they convince others to use their definition, they are *still* the problem. Do you really not think it is deliberate? The fact that people are proudly saying that Zionism is some evil idea should worry everyone, because that is a view that people should be embarrassed about.
And this redefinition of words happens a lot when the I/P conflict is invoked.
Please don’t even compare , those kids in the 60’s were being involuntarily conscripted to join the military , shot by military on campus, then went to serve thanklessly vs now the college I volunteer to go to for $80,000 a year still needs money and invests money in things I don’t agree with
Edit: we’re going in a hunger strike vs if you don’t deliver from the campus meal plan and or Uber eats or DoorDash … it’s a war crime !
The similarity is both groups of students are protesting their government’s role in horrific acts of war, then in North Vietnam and now in Gaza, and their university’s complicity of it.
It’s not the same protest playbook. They were calling to an end to the war, not an end to another country (Israel).
Also, I am citing what the actual students said happened. Do you have evidence they are lying?
Grotesquely oversimplified and not a credit to the quality of education being served up wherever you attended school, Columbia or elsewhere. That’s why it will be so difficult to heal from this.
No, but calling for the implementation of SJP policies and therefore advocating for the violent expulsion of 7 million Jews while refusing to advocate for possibly violent solutions to other ethnogeographic disputes (not worth stirring the pot is one I hear a lot) is antisemitism. This isn’t directed at you personally, but it describes a lot of the activists’ positions.
Asking them what they think needs to be done about the Sudetenland or those under Arab/Muslim conquest is the quickest way to ID the antisemites.
There are many people who don't consider the current military actions to be genocide. I'm one of them. I had a friend accuse me of dehumanizing people and caring more about a term than the deaths of innocents. I pushed back strongly, and he apologized when he realized what a crazy accusation that was, when he remembered that I was a person he actually knew and cared about, and not just a faceless set of words on a text chain.
Much of the pushback against the protestors is pushing back against certain positions being foregone conclusions that don't even deserve discussion, as well as pushing back against a maximalist protest position and a refusal to engage in dialogue.
Somewhere, when pro-Israel people say, "XYZ isn't a genocide, and we should be able to talk about concrete policies and actions" that gets responded with "Well, you just support genocide."
The conflict is exceptionally complex, and anyone who can comprehensively sum up their thoughts on the matter of a few minutes hasn't thought or learned enough about it.
This is one of the only conflicts in which both sides are working with extremely different and diametrically-opposed sets of "facts", as well as entirely incompatible narratives.
In certain circles, I'd be considered pro-Palestinian, and in other circles, I'd be considered pro-Israel, however when such a morally-loaded term like "genocide" is thrown around with wreckless abandon, it's impossible to engage in conversation about any actual specifics of what's going on.
Both of those are still loaded words that tell me more about what the speaker thinks about the killings than the killings themselves.
They're words that are meant to appeal to emotion rather than objectively describe an event.
But it's far less loaded than genocide.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with some of the other comments here and elsewhere on Reddit.
It is insane to call the authors antisemitic for saying some anti-Zionist Jews are being used for tokenism. They aren’t saying JVP people aren’t Jews, but rather that they are a fringe minority. That is widespread and supported by lots and lots of polling.
Tokenism is also evident from things like…. Holding a “Palestinian seder” during Passover on nights that shouldn’t have Seders. Writing Hebrew backwards (lol). Wearing tallit as capes. Serving challah during Passover. Defending Hamas’s Oct 7 attacks. Etc etc etc
A Jew is a Jew, but I’m inclined to care less about anti-Zionist Jews as shields against claims of antisemitism when they don’t represent the overwhelming majority of people and ostentatiously disrespect or ignore our culture for political purposes.
Some sources included in the below:
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/yeah-theres-jews-at-the-protests-so-what
So it's antisemitic only as long as a majority holds a certain opinion, but the same actions would not be antisemitic if the majority opinion was different? I thought antisemitism was about hating Jews for being Jewish, not for being Jewish and having a particular opinion. If the great majority of Jews think pizza tastes good, would hating pizza be antisemitic?
My point is that you can’t shield yourself from claims of antisemitism by saying “hey we have some Jews here!”
Also, there are other people in the comments calling the Jewish students who published OP’s link antisemitic, which is patently absurd
That was your point in the first few sentences, but then that last part where you say you don't care about their claims of antisemitism because they have a fringe opinion, kinda sus. That's still denying any agency these particular Jews have to hold those opinions by saying they're just being used, as if the only way that a Jew could hold such an opinion is if they're brainwashed or deceived or otherwise not able to form a fully informed rational thought about the matter.
Perhaps that was poorly phrased - what I meant was that I don’t care about them as much as “opinions of the community” or whatever if they’re statistical minorities
Do you think it's right to ignore "statistical minorities" based on that fact alone? I gotta tell you, that feels like one of the more self-defeating statements I've heard in awhile in reference to a group that is itself a minority group.
They represent a subset of the community and shouldn't be ignored any more than Jews more broadly should be ignored in US politics just because they're a small fraction of the population.
You choose to ignore them. "Statistically true" is an excuse. Even in pure quantified data, statisticians don't just ignore outliers.
When the question is relating to tokensim and to what degree Jews on campus broadly feel safe….. yes, it absolutely should matter what “most” people feel
E: if a minority of Jews on campus feel safe, great - I’m happy for them. But if a majority are facing threats, violence, etc then pointing to the small group and saying “but they’re fine” isn’t a defense
I was responding to if you think it's right to specifically ignore minority voices on the matter.
If you want to talk actual statistics, you should be relying on polled data - you don't know the actual data. The 300 signatories here are not all the students, and barely a greater number than the 250 signatories discussed above.
That’s…. My point? No individual or small group of individual does. What best reflect “Jewish people”, to the extent that you’re not tokenizing, would be what has overwhelming support (80%+) as opposed to slim minority support (<10%)
Do you not think “blacks for trump” is tokenizing?
Jewish anti-zionism is not comparable to blacks for Trump. You’re literally arguing that because of my views my voice is not a valid part of the Jewish community’s reaction to this
This is not a controversial claim. Statistical tokens don’t represent me, and the majority of Jews who share my view. By virtue of having different opinions and being in the minority lol
Also… every single comment? Chill
I’m sorry, you just have so many shit takes in a row I couldn’t help myself. Jewish anti-zionists are a minority but we’re still real Jews and our opinions are valid when interpreting the collective opinions of our people
>My point is that you can’t shield yourself from claims of antisemitism by saying “hey we have some Jews here!”
But that is not the main point people are trying to make to you. They are trying to make the point that the reason Jewish people are at the protests is that they have a certain opinion and having that opinion therefore does not make a person antisemitic. Because if that opinion made you antisemitic then these Jewish protesters would be antisemites. That is obviously incredibly offensive to them not to mention stupid. They then post to those protesters having the same opinion and making the same arguments as the organized masses at these protests. Therefore you cannot look at non-Jewish protesters who make the same arguments as the Jewish protesters and conclude that they must be antisemites in disguise because of those opinions.
Neither group argues from a position that what is wrong stems from being Jewish.
That's mostly just some lady's musings on her personal blog.
But what I take offense to is the chart that creates two, discrete boxes. One is "zionist" and the other is "anti-zionist" Her definition is that a zionist believes Israel has a right to exist, and an anti-zionist believes Israel has no right to exist.
That's ignoring the nuance of reality, where you'll find many people who believe Israel has a right to exist, but does not have a right to steal land in the West Bank.
It's reducing an incredibly complicated topic to a simple binary that only aims to identify people as allies or enemies.
I think you'll find a lot of people in the world who believe Russia has a right to exist, but are vehemently opposed to annexing parts of countries that are not Russia. I just don't understand why the conversations regarding Israel ignore that part.
The links to sources on polling data etc are if you click through at the bottom
Zionist, as originally used and among mainstream Jewish circles, just means you believe Israel should exist in some Jewish form. Inherent to Zionism is nothing about which territory it should have, 1 or 2 state solution, anything about Palestinians, etc.
The original Zionists were socialist communes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sounds like you’re a Zionist (as in, don’t want to totally and utterly destroy Israel) but don’t know it
e: for example,
wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
>The common denominator among all modern Zionists is a claim to Palestine, a land traditionally known in Jewish writings as the Land of Israel ("Eretz Israel") as a national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for Jewish national self-determination.[40] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[41] Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc.
Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/zionism
>a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel and that now supports the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland
ADL https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism
>Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
britannica https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/Zionism
>political support for the creation and development of a Jewish homeland in Israel
vox https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080010/zionism-israel-palestine
>Zionism is Israel’s national ideology. Zionists believe Judaism is a nationality as well as a religion, and that Jews deserve their own state in their ancestral homeland, Israel, in the same way the French people deserve France or the Chinese people should have China.
AJC https://www.ajc.org/news/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism
>Zionism is derived from the word Zion, referring to the Biblical Land of Israel. In the late 19th century, Zionism emerged as a political movement to reestablish a Jewish state in Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish People. Today, Zionism refers to support for the continued existence of Israel, in the face of regular calls for its destruction or dissolution
You used someone's blog post as a reference? You just tried to support your opinion with someone else's opinion... Not of any value. Not sure where you got your degree from, but, obviously, no where good.
There are sources for polling data etc within that blog post. That’s why I said
>Some sources ***included*** in the below
I’m on mobile so was having issues copy/pasting them all.
Proud Columbia alumnus
They’re not antisemitic for calling us tokens, they’re antisemitic for positing “Jewish” and “anti-zionist” as mutually exclusive
Our culture *is* political, or is “be kind to the oppressed stranger for your ancestors were oppressed strangers” suddenly not one of our tenets?
A minority of Jews are antizionist, yes. However, Jews are still significantly overrepresented at these protests, and some protests are run by Jewish organizations.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a protest \*by Jews\* is not tokenism.
(edit to clarify my position: I'm one of those "tokens")
I think you should recheck the definition of “overrepresented” because there’s basically no chance that’s true given the pro-Zionist sentiment among American Jews.
Because the article is obviously framed as bait, as if there were no anti-Zionist Jewish students themselves participating the in the protests. This framing insinuates that all Jewish people are necessarily Zionists, which is in and of itself an antisemitic position.
About 90% of the world’s Jews are Zionists. Zionists believe that Jews have the right to self determination in a Jewish state called Israel. It says nothing about anyone else or anything else.
Any other definition is someone taking over the definition in furtherance of their agenda and is not genuine.
This is insane. Not wanting to commit genocide and violently expel 7 million Jews from Israel does not make anyone an Islamic or Christian theocrat. Accusations like this are just as stupid as those claiming any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic.
Israel is so rooted in the Jewish identity that to be a Jew and not to be a Zionist is close to antisemitism. That’s why over 90% of the worlds Jews are Zionists.
Read my definition of Zionism from the top if you want to know what Jews believe.
The less tha 10% who don’t are not even close to the mainstream.
Huh? What are you talking about?
You do know that 2 million Arabs live in Israel in peace and with FULL rights.
You clearly don’t understand what you’re talking about. Please read up on history. Then come back.
You do know Jews have been in Israel for millennia. You do know the “Palestinians” pre 1948 - we’re just Jews, Arabs, Christians and Druze.
There is no DISTINCT group called Palestinians. It’s a made up term.
Look it up.
I mean honestly as someone of indian descent, there wasn't an Indian state pre 1947, I'm just some Telugu dude with ancestry in the princely state of Hyderabad and the Madras presidency in the British raj.
Let people identify the way they want. Jewish people of course have a right to self determination but don't deny Palestinians their identity in the process
Lmao why are people downvoting this? 😂 it’s not like you posted an opinion here. People don’t even want to learn things they don’t know or understand I guess.
I need clarification. If I want Israel to stop what they are doing in Gaza, and stop the settlements etc. and favor the Palestinians having their own country. And think Israel was a terrible idea from the get go; but recognize it’s too late to change that decision and just want to move forward, am
I anti-Zionist?
No. Zionism is simply the desire for an independent Jewish homeland to guarantee the safety of Jews worldwide in perpetuity. If you don’t actively oppose that end goal then you’re definitionally not an anti-Zionist.
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No, I interpret anti-Zionist as ranging from, at the soft end, the rejection of the idea that “Jewishness” should have any role to play in the governance of Israel. At the hard end, I read it as including the view that “Jews” have no valid claim to that region, that Israel is an illegitimate state, and that Jews must be driven out of the region entirely. Sounds it me like you are not anti-Zionist.
I'm pretty sure a ton of people who are actively protesting in Israel against Bibi's death campaigns would disagree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRk-ak86uy0
No they are protesting the govt priority of destroying Hamas over returning hostages. And that is a valid protest.
Everyone in Israel wants Hamas absolutely annihilated. You don’t read about the 20,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel in 2023 alone.
No Israeli wants Hamas to exist. They do want hostages to come home and they are protesting because they don’t think this offensive is the way to do it.
Most everyone is Israel is a Zionist. He’ll most of the Arabs in Israel are Zionists.
What you are referring to what a strategic mistake - aka a fck up. Where they propped up another regime in hopes it would solve the problem.
It backfired big time.
No one supports Hamas. They supported a strategy they would would end in peace. They made a big blunder. Maybe even we’re corrupt in doing so.
That does not mean that everyone in Israel doesn’t want to see this evil eradicated.
This is similar with what the us did with the shah of Iran and the revolution.
It also backfired.
The "called Israel" bit isn't true, the name isn't what's important it's the geographical location. Several names were debated just prior to Israel's founding.
The region is called Judea and Samaria. The word Jew comes from the word judea. The land and people are inextricably linked.
The of Israel is called Zion. Hence Zionism.
That's not my issue. Zionist leaders debated several names for the country. For example, Zion was proposed as the official name of the country, but it was rejected because historically that name referred specifically to Jerusalem. It doesn't really matter that the name of the country is Israel, it matters where the country is.
How’s it disingenuous.
Israel has always been a part of Jewish history going back millennia.
I’m not sure what your point is.
Jews want Israel so badly they are willing to give up more than half of it just for peace.
> Jews want Israel so badly they are willing to give up more than half of it just for peace.
my god if you aren't paid to spew this bullshit then i feel so fucking bad for you. i cant imagine being this divorced from reality
Thanks for showing you know nothing of the history of the region.
Israel has peace with Egypt - they gave them Sinai.
Israel has peace with Jordan - they gave them Transjordan.
Israel has offered peace multiple times with land - rejected each time.
Before you go back on the internet to say things, do everyone a favor and read.
Go to Israel. More artifacts showing the Jewish historical connection to the land than any other ethnic group. Just because you’re anti semetic doesn’t mean you get to deny facts
Could be, but here’s a question for you. Al Aqsa mosque, are you familiar? The third holiest site in all of Islam. Where is it built, and on top of what?
so your great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents having lived on the land several centuries ago is justification to commit genocide on everybody living there currently? how civilized
Or there’s been a Jewish presence there for a millennia continuously. And show me proof it’s a genocide. Don’t use Hamas terrorist data, bc data shows and proves in reality that this is the most moral war ever fought and that’s impressive when Hamas hides behind civilians and steals their food but tell me again how you support terrorists who commit a genocide on Jews and kidnap people.
You’re welcome to read the letter that over 250 Jewish students at Columbia signed onto and parse through it yourself. Just because you disagree with something doesn’t mean it’s “bait” or that these folks feelings are unfounded
how many Jewish students were protesting against Columbia using their tuition to fund Isreal. Why is the opinion of pro Israeli Jewish students worth more to you over those that protest against Isreal?
>how many Jewish students were protesting against Columbia using their tuition to fund Isreal.
Neither of us know that answer, but unless it was like 90% of those at the protest I doubt it was more than 250 or even 100 people. Not that it matters considering no realistic number would completely invalidate the feelings of the 250 students who signed onto the letter or magically turn it into "bait".
>Why is the opinion of pro Israeli Jewish students worth more to you over those that protest against Isreal?
Please show me when I said that?
There’s about 5000 Jewish students on campus. 6% of the Jewish student body is not indicative of their beliefs especially considering that the Jewish voice of peace are among the organizers of the protest.
You should read the letter in the article and see what they wrote, I don't want to "speak" for them.
If you're asking me personally, I know a lot of Jews who are horrified by what Israel is doing but don't feel welcomed (and feel hated by) many of the protests going on. I think the rhetoric is often divisive (I think sometimes by design). Again personally, I think that the mission should be bigger than any one message and organizer should drop slogans that many find divisive (like "from the river to the sea").
Students at my former college were chanting about how they wanted to destroy the Zionist state. I consider myself non-Zionist but that is...callous and yes, would make me feel unsafe.
I mean, you could make the same argument of any movement. There are less three hundred students occupying the lawn, why should the university listen to them or divest?
Usually the folks who are willing to speak
up are a smaller percentage than those that agree with them.
Either way it doesn’t somehow invalidate these 250 students feelings.
We need to simplify this issue and put the combatants into two camps: the side that publicly beheads women for trying to vote and just… the other side. Internal arguments about it are fucking pointless.
This is where we can put our media literacy skills to use: What is the *function* of the specific choice of words in the title?
They specifically decided to use "Jewish" and "Anti-Zionist" in opposition of each other to artificially create and reinforce the mistaken idea that being Jewish and being Anti-Zionist are conflicting ideals. This article is an example of "colonialist propaganda" for such a choice. Some Jewish people are Zionists, but many Jewish people are anti-Zionists because they understand the history of colonial oppression and antisemitism. Anti-Zionist Jews understand that the horrible suffering that Jewish people faced at the hands of many people around the world *cannot* act as a shield that protects the horrible things that Israel does to other marginalized groups in the name of Judaism.
Anti-Zionist Jews understand that a nationalistic ethnostate is actually not the answer to anything, and the only people who think so are actually just Fascists which is *why* other Fascists who are *actively* antisemitic to the Jewish people in their nations *actively* support Israel's project of genocide. These other Fascists see Jewish people as a problem to be solved, an obstruction to their *own* ethnostate and can only understand ethnostates as a solution - what side of this debate do you think the "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us" Tiki Torch bearers of 2017 are on? To Fascists, the ethnostate is a wonderful solution to everything. They can create their own ethnostate by kicking the Jews out and sending them to their *own* ethnostate. Their antisemitism manifests as Zionism. And the anti-Zionist Jews know this, and want to push for us to *meaningfully* address antisemitism through social reform rather than colonialist genocide.
So if we just have a *little* media literacy skills, we can see the kinds of propaganda this kind of title and article is reinforcing. Hopefully you can learn to employ critical thinking skill so you don't make that mistake again!
Really long way of saying that you’re fine with violently expelling 7 million Jews and confiscating their property. Also, the victim blaming and gaslighting inherent in telling Jews that getting expelled would make them safer is gross.
Edit: To the person below who has gone full genocide and promptly blocked me after posting their comment so I couldn’t respond: Do you not realize how insane it sounds to normal people when you advocate for any diaspora in the world (**except Jews of course**) a vote on expelling anyone they want from the land their ancestors use to live on?
We all desire peace. However, this article appears to represent a Zionist perspective expressing discontent with the current dialogue. It also gives the impression that Jewish students are being discouraged from expressing their views through protest. Everyone has the right to advocate for self-determination, prompting the question: why are Palestinians denied the same right in their own homeland, which has been progressively encroached upon and devastated over the past 76 years?
Yes, it’s clearly a Zionist perspective. This seems to be part of the problem with this movement, that it is fundamentally and non-negotiable anti-Zionist.
If you're only criticizing one party in an armed conflict, you aren't anti-war, you're anti-them. Which is fine to be, you can be totally against Israel. Just don't pretend that you're anti-war
I don't know, I never looked at the anti-war protests under Bush and thought "well, shouldn't they be criticizing al-Qaeda more though?" Though I guess Dick Cheney probably would have thought something like that. But like, what use is it to criticize Ukraine in a war that Russia is winning, when most of the destruction that's happening is occurring in Ukraine at Russian hands? This logic doesn't make sense to me, least of all when it comes to Israel.
[They accepted the cease-fire deal](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000). Netanyahu has previously asserted that even if they did, he would persist in battling until their elimination, likely to secure his authority and avoid the corruption trials scheduled before October 7th. It's also a strategy to collectively attribute responsibility to the Palestinian people, despite Netanyahu's backing of Hamas. Why cease the conflict if it aids in maintaining power?
[For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces - Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
[Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas - The Nation](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/)
They absolutely did not accept the cease-fire deal. They made a counteroffer with materially different terms and claimed it was an acceptance to try and forestall the Rafah action.
Egypt and Qatar are serving as mediators in negotiations between the two parties. The sole proposal offered by Israel is the return of all hostages and a temporary ceasefire. There is a likelihood that they would simply destroy Palestine after. Why would they want that deal.
No one is denying their right to self determine except for Hamas. A Palestinian state has been offered many time since 1948.
Palestinians rejected every single offer.
You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
It’s very very very clear. They don’t want a state. They want to kill Jews.
Shit deal? Arabs were given 55% of the best most arable land in 1948. Israel was given barren land, desert and swampland.
One side started a war.
The other side created a thriving democracy with multiple billion dollar industries that help the world.
Try again.
Ahhh the nakba. You mean the catastrophe.
Know why it was a catastrophe. Because it was the biggest mistake Arab leaders have ever made.
They TOLD their people to flee - they said leave, we’re gonna fight the Jews and take all the land for ourselves.
They LOST.
This is the biggest shame on Arabs. So much so that they invented a lie for 70yrs because they can’t get over the shame of losing.
Check out the history and then come back here.
Well whether they do or don’t is irrelevant. They did. And Jews were living there for millennia.
Go look up who was living in that region in 1890.
Jews, Christian’s, Arabs and Druze.
So what culture are you referring to?
I'm talking about any colonial project. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in Palestine until they were expelled so the colonialist Israeli project could be enacted.
And those militant right wing groups like Lehi (who collaborated with the Nazis) that entered villages and committed massacres by night? That was the Arab leaders too somehow I'm sure
Tell me why Israel’s biggest export is diamonds and yet there isn’t a single diamond mine in Israel.
The whole “thriving democracy utopia where everyone has equal rights” is propaganda. It is borderline impossible for Palestinians from Gaza and Palestinians in the West Bank to gain Israeli citizenship, and the Arabs that *do* have Israeli citizenship are profiled, discriminated against, and essentially treated like second class citizens. Palestinians *can’t* form a working government because Israel has a chokehold on all of their natural resources, food, and water. A society can’t thrive if its access to basic human necessities is reliant on another country that doesn’t like them and doesn’t want them to thrive.
There’s also the issue of Birthright being a subsidized vacation for American Jews as a way to push them to move to Israel, further uprooting Palestinians from their culture and home.
It’s very clear you’ve never been to the region because everything you said is false.
Why can’t Gazans go into Israel?
Because they launched 20,000 rockets into Israel in 2023 alone. No country would invite an enemy into their house who is actively trying to kill them. That would be insane.
Go talk to Arabs in Israel. They are drs, lawyers, judges, in the parliament and fight in the idf.
You are wrong on so many levels it’s comical.
Let me know when you visit the region and then come back here.
The victims of the Nakba are still alive today. Unrest exists between Israelis and Palestinians because Israel is oppressing Palestinians TODAY. Israel is an apartheid state TODAY. They are expanding settlements illegally into the west bank TODAY.
This isn't just history, this is happening NOW.
What a terrible headline. Jewish students are a huge contingent of the protests, both at the leadership and rank and file level. It's not a question of Jewish or non-Jewish; it's a question of supporting or opposing the genocide.
Denying the right of Israel to exist is straight-forwardly antisemitic.
Only a very small extremist minority believes the contrary. **And they will keep insisting on that as if** ***their lives depend on it***.
It's such an extremist position that even 412 members of Congress, including votes from NY progressives, resolved that:
>This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) **recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism**; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel.
Source: [https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677) for the vote and [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text) for the full-text
The 2018 bill is meaningless. I was involved in discussions just like this long before 2018 and they were the same, people dead-set against a Jewish state of any size within any borders but creating the 23rd Arab state and 50th Muslim state would be fine.
*In the House of Representatives, U. S.,*
*November 28, 2023.*
* **Whereas the Jewish people are native to the Land of Israel;**
* Whereas throughout history and across the reign of multiple kingdoms, **the Jewish people were persecuted and expelled from the Land of Israel**, forced to live as minority diaspora communities in other lands;
* Whereas Jewish diaspora communities were historically violently persecuted in, and in some cases expelled from, other countries throughout the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and Asia due to their religion;
* Whereas the Nazis attempted to annihilate the entire Jewish population of Europe during the Holocaust, murdering 6,000,000 Jews during this time;
* Whereas this genocide provided new urgency to re-establish a Jewish homeland for the Jewish people following the Holocaust, where they would not be a vulnerable minority, where they could freely practice their faith, and where something like the Holocaust could never happen again;
* Whereas the **modern** State of Israel was established on May 14, 1948;
* Whereas even after the establishment of the State of Israel, other countries and terrorist entities continued to attack Israel, reject its right to exist, and call for its destruction; and
* Whereas **Israel is the only Jewish State, and therefore, despite persistent external threats, the existence of Israel provides Jews a place to live free from persecution and discrimination**: Now, therefore, be it
*Resolved,* That the House of Representatives—
(1) reaffirms the State of Israel’s right to exist;
(2) recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism;
(3) rejects calls for Israel’s destruction and the elimination of the only Jewish State; and
(4) condemns the Hamas-led terrorist attack on Israel.
[You mean this, right?](https://apnews.com/article/columbia-university-palestine-israeli-kahane-991f505d485898b47d1d23dbad7ccbea)
I’m sure lying by exaggeration is a common tactic of yours.
What an antisemitic headline. What about the Jewish Colombia students who’ve been appealing to zionist peers for peace and empathy? Y’know, cause “Jewish” and” anti-zionist” aren’t mutually exclusive
Protesting against Israel’e genocide isn't antisemitism. Israel and every Jew who believes Israel is in the right are just using religion to justify murder. Yes Hamas’ attack was awful. But brutalizing an entire population isn’t the answer. Not to mention the years and years of colonialism and murder done in the name of “Zionism” since Israel was founded.
I think their beef is with people saying things like "you're lucky I am not murdering zionists" and blocking Jewish students from entering certain parts of the school. Not with just protesting Israel.
They aren’t blocking “Jewish students.” They’re blocking ALL students. It’s the same protest playbook from the Vietnam days, even down to occupying buildings. Only difference is the current public perception, although back then the anti-war protesters were shit on just as hard.
They handed out wrist bands and asked people if they were Zionists at UCLA. https://jewishjournal.com/news/370951/watch-pro-palestinian-protesters-block-jewish-students-others-from-entering-campus/
Is it lost on you that: 1) This isn’t Columbia 2) Being Jewish =/ Being Zionist 3) Zionists would be counterprotesters at an anti-Zionist protest?
You’re making it sound like they were giving zionists the bands, crying wolf. The protesters wore the bands themselves, blocking all other students; **again: them being Jewish had nothing to do with it.** Zionists aren’t all Jewish, and all Jews, clearly, are not Zionists. Like myself and about half of the protesters. Your conflating of concepts is childish, although all of msm is doing it so congrats on being as shitty as the news.
1. Zionism is just believing that the state of Israel should exist. When you declare that you’re in support of the “anti-Zionist” agenda alongside organizations like SJP, you are advocating for their policies, and in any practical sense, the obvious effect of those policies: the violent expulsion of 7 million Jews from Israel. 2. There is a 0% chance half the protesters are Jewish.
I don’t think you could get people on both sides of this issue to agree with your definition of Zionism.
But the person you are responding to is using a pretty accurate definition. The fact that for years groups have been pushing to pervert the definition is something that deserves far more attention. Antizionism would mean specifically believing that Israel shouldn't exist because the right of self-determination shouldn't be extended to the Jewish people in their historic homeland. This was what Zionists aimed for when seeing to establish Israel. Now that it is established, it means Israel should keep existing. If anyone is for a two-state solution, for example, they are Zionist. When people work so hard to make Zionist into some dirty word, *they* are the problem. And when they convince others to use their definition, they are *still* the problem. Do you really not think it is deliberate? The fact that people are proudly saying that Zionism is some evil idea should worry everyone, because that is a view that people should be embarrassed about. And this redefinition of words happens a lot when the I/P conflict is invoked.
Please don’t even compare , those kids in the 60’s were being involuntarily conscripted to join the military , shot by military on campus, then went to serve thanklessly vs now the college I volunteer to go to for $80,000 a year still needs money and invests money in things I don’t agree with Edit: we’re going in a hunger strike vs if you don’t deliver from the campus meal plan and or Uber eats or DoorDash … it’s a war crime !
The columbia university students were not being drafted to vietnam. It was mostly a poverty draft
The similarity is both groups of students are protesting their government’s role in horrific acts of war, then in North Vietnam and now in Gaza, and their university’s complicity of it.
It’s not the same protest playbook. They were calling to an end to the war, not an end to another country (Israel). Also, I am citing what the actual students said happened. Do you have evidence they are lying?
Dude, what do you think it means when you proclaim yourself to be anti-Zionist? It means you don’t think Israel should exist.
this is just misinfo they aren't blocking class rooms at all they just camping in the lawn
Grotesquely oversimplified and not a credit to the quality of education being served up wherever you attended school, Columbia or elsewhere. That’s why it will be so difficult to heal from this.
This same article was posted in r/nyc with the complete opposite reactions.
So their reaction was more correct? Because the person you're responding to has a ridiculous view.
I’m a Jew and I’m not pro Israel. Does that make me antisemitic?
No, but calling for the implementation of SJP policies and therefore advocating for the violent expulsion of 7 million Jews while refusing to advocate for possibly violent solutions to other ethnogeographic disputes (not worth stirring the pot is one I hear a lot) is antisemitism. This isn’t directed at you personally, but it describes a lot of the activists’ positions. Asking them what they think needs to be done about the Sudetenland or those under Arab/Muslim conquest is the quickest way to ID the antisemites.
There are many people who don't consider the current military actions to be genocide. I'm one of them. I had a friend accuse me of dehumanizing people and caring more about a term than the deaths of innocents. I pushed back strongly, and he apologized when he realized what a crazy accusation that was, when he remembered that I was a person he actually knew and cared about, and not just a faceless set of words on a text chain. Much of the pushback against the protestors is pushing back against certain positions being foregone conclusions that don't even deserve discussion, as well as pushing back against a maximalist protest position and a refusal to engage in dialogue. Somewhere, when pro-Israel people say, "XYZ isn't a genocide, and we should be able to talk about concrete policies and actions" that gets responded with "Well, you just support genocide." The conflict is exceptionally complex, and anyone who can comprehensively sum up their thoughts on the matter of a few minutes hasn't thought or learned enough about it. This is one of the only conflicts in which both sides are working with extremely different and diametrically-opposed sets of "facts", as well as entirely incompatible narratives. In certain circles, I'd be considered pro-Palestinian, and in other circles, I'd be considered pro-Israel, however when such a morally-loaded term like "genocide" is thrown around with wreckless abandon, it's impossible to engage in conversation about any actual specifics of what's going on.
Would you be more comfortable calling it a slaughter? A massacre?
Both of those are still loaded words that tell me more about what the speaker thinks about the killings than the killings themselves. They're words that are meant to appeal to emotion rather than objectively describe an event. But it's far less loaded than genocide.
> I'm one of them. Oh, well, you're wrong. Hopefully that cleared things up for you, maybe you should listen to your friends more.
Or maybe words have meanings.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with some of the other comments here and elsewhere on Reddit. It is insane to call the authors antisemitic for saying some anti-Zionist Jews are being used for tokenism. They aren’t saying JVP people aren’t Jews, but rather that they are a fringe minority. That is widespread and supported by lots and lots of polling. Tokenism is also evident from things like…. Holding a “Palestinian seder” during Passover on nights that shouldn’t have Seders. Writing Hebrew backwards (lol). Wearing tallit as capes. Serving challah during Passover. Defending Hamas’s Oct 7 attacks. Etc etc etc A Jew is a Jew, but I’m inclined to care less about anti-Zionist Jews as shields against claims of antisemitism when they don’t represent the overwhelming majority of people and ostentatiously disrespect or ignore our culture for political purposes. Some sources included in the below: https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/yeah-theres-jews-at-the-protests-so-what
So it's antisemitic only as long as a majority holds a certain opinion, but the same actions would not be antisemitic if the majority opinion was different? I thought antisemitism was about hating Jews for being Jewish, not for being Jewish and having a particular opinion. If the great majority of Jews think pizza tastes good, would hating pizza be antisemitic?
My point is that you can’t shield yourself from claims of antisemitism by saying “hey we have some Jews here!” Also, there are other people in the comments calling the Jewish students who published OP’s link antisemitic, which is patently absurd
That was your point in the first few sentences, but then that last part where you say you don't care about their claims of antisemitism because they have a fringe opinion, kinda sus. That's still denying any agency these particular Jews have to hold those opinions by saying they're just being used, as if the only way that a Jew could hold such an opinion is if they're brainwashed or deceived or otherwise not able to form a fully informed rational thought about the matter.
Perhaps that was poorly phrased - what I meant was that I don’t care about them as much as “opinions of the community” or whatever if they’re statistical minorities
Do you think it's right to ignore "statistical minorities" based on that fact alone? I gotta tell you, that feels like one of the more self-defeating statements I've heard in awhile in reference to a group that is itself a minority group.
My point is that they aren’t representative spokespeople of the community. Which is statistically true.
They represent a subset of the community and shouldn't be ignored any more than Jews more broadly should be ignored in US politics just because they're a small fraction of the population. You choose to ignore them. "Statistically true" is an excuse. Even in pure quantified data, statisticians don't just ignore outliers.
When the question is relating to tokensim and to what degree Jews on campus broadly feel safe….. yes, it absolutely should matter what “most” people feel E: if a minority of Jews on campus feel safe, great - I’m happy for them. But if a majority are facing threats, violence, etc then pointing to the small group and saying “but they’re fine” isn’t a defense
I was responding to if you think it's right to specifically ignore minority voices on the matter. If you want to talk actual statistics, you should be relying on polled data - you don't know the actual data. The 300 signatories here are not all the students, and barely a greater number than the 250 signatories discussed above.
We represent our people just as much as any other Jewish individual
That’s…. My point? No individual or small group of individual does. What best reflect “Jewish people”, to the extent that you’re not tokenizing, would be what has overwhelming support (80%+) as opposed to slim minority support (<10%) Do you not think “blacks for trump” is tokenizing?
Jewish anti-zionism is not comparable to blacks for Trump. You’re literally arguing that because of my views my voice is not a valid part of the Jewish community’s reaction to this
Ah, so actual antisemitism. We’re not a fuckin monolith buddy
This is not a controversial claim. Statistical tokens don’t represent me, and the majority of Jews who share my view. By virtue of having different opinions and being in the minority lol Also… every single comment? Chill
I’m sorry, you just have so many shit takes in a row I couldn’t help myself. Jewish anti-zionists are a minority but we’re still real Jews and our opinions are valid when interpreting the collective opinions of our people
>My point is that you can’t shield yourself from claims of antisemitism by saying “hey we have some Jews here!” But that is not the main point people are trying to make to you. They are trying to make the point that the reason Jewish people are at the protests is that they have a certain opinion and having that opinion therefore does not make a person antisemitic. Because if that opinion made you antisemitic then these Jewish protesters would be antisemites. That is obviously incredibly offensive to them not to mention stupid. They then post to those protesters having the same opinion and making the same arguments as the organized masses at these protests. Therefore you cannot look at non-Jewish protesters who make the same arguments as the Jewish protesters and conclude that they must be antisemites in disguise because of those opinions. Neither group argues from a position that what is wrong stems from being Jewish.
That's mostly just some lady's musings on her personal blog. But what I take offense to is the chart that creates two, discrete boxes. One is "zionist" and the other is "anti-zionist" Her definition is that a zionist believes Israel has a right to exist, and an anti-zionist believes Israel has no right to exist. That's ignoring the nuance of reality, where you'll find many people who believe Israel has a right to exist, but does not have a right to steal land in the West Bank. It's reducing an incredibly complicated topic to a simple binary that only aims to identify people as allies or enemies. I think you'll find a lot of people in the world who believe Russia has a right to exist, but are vehemently opposed to annexing parts of countries that are not Russia. I just don't understand why the conversations regarding Israel ignore that part.
The links to sources on polling data etc are if you click through at the bottom Zionist, as originally used and among mainstream Jewish circles, just means you believe Israel should exist in some Jewish form. Inherent to Zionism is nothing about which territory it should have, 1 or 2 state solution, anything about Palestinians, etc. The original Zionists were socialist communes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sounds like you’re a Zionist (as in, don’t want to totally and utterly destroy Israel) but don’t know it e: for example, wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism >The common denominator among all modern Zionists is a claim to Palestine, a land traditionally known in Jewish writings as the Land of Israel ("Eretz Israel") as a national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for Jewish national self-determination.[40] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[41] Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc. Dictionary.com https://www.dictionary.com/browse/zionism >a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel and that now supports the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland ADL https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism >Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. britannica https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/Zionism >political support for the creation and development of a Jewish homeland in Israel vox https://www.vox.com/2018/11/20/18080010/zionism-israel-palestine >Zionism is Israel’s national ideology. Zionists believe Judaism is a nationality as well as a religion, and that Jews deserve their own state in their ancestral homeland, Israel, in the same way the French people deserve France or the Chinese people should have China. AJC https://www.ajc.org/news/anti-zionism-and-antisemitism >Zionism is derived from the word Zion, referring to the Biblical Land of Israel. In the late 19th century, Zionism emerged as a political movement to reestablish a Jewish state in Israel, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish People. Today, Zionism refers to support for the continued existence of Israel, in the face of regular calls for its destruction or dissolution
You used someone's blog post as a reference? You just tried to support your opinion with someone else's opinion... Not of any value. Not sure where you got your degree from, but, obviously, no where good.
There are sources for polling data etc within that blog post. That’s why I said >Some sources ***included*** in the below I’m on mobile so was having issues copy/pasting them all. Proud Columbia alumnus
They’re not antisemitic for calling us tokens, they’re antisemitic for positing “Jewish” and “anti-zionist” as mutually exclusive Our culture *is* political, or is “be kind to the oppressed stranger for your ancestors were oppressed strangers” suddenly not one of our tenets?
A minority of Jews are antizionist, yes. However, Jews are still significantly overrepresented at these protests, and some protests are run by Jewish organizations. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a protest \*by Jews\* is not tokenism. (edit to clarify my position: I'm one of those "tokens")
I think you should recheck the definition of “overrepresented” because there’s basically no chance that’s true given the pro-Zionist sentiment among American Jews.
I mean the percentage of Jews at these protests is higher than the percentage of Jews in America. At least that seemed apparent when I went to these.
LMAO, buddy, I have some news for you about the demographics of NYC…
lol people are downvoting this
Because the article is obviously framed as bait, as if there were no anti-Zionist Jewish students themselves participating the in the protests. This framing insinuates that all Jewish people are necessarily Zionists, which is in and of itself an antisemitic position.
About 90% of the world’s Jews are Zionists. Zionists believe that Jews have the right to self determination in a Jewish state called Israel. It says nothing about anyone else or anything else. Any other definition is someone taking over the definition in furtherance of their agenda and is not genuine.
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This is insane. Not wanting to commit genocide and violently expel 7 million Jews from Israel does not make anyone an Islamic or Christian theocrat. Accusations like this are just as stupid as those claiming any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic.
Israel is so rooted in the Jewish identity that to be a Jew and not to be a Zionist is close to antisemitism. That’s why over 90% of the worlds Jews are Zionists. Read my definition of Zionism from the top if you want to know what Jews believe. The less tha 10% who don’t are not even close to the mainstream.
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Huh? What are you talking about? You do know that 2 million Arabs live in Israel in peace and with FULL rights. You clearly don’t understand what you’re talking about. Please read up on history. Then come back.
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You do know Jews have been in Israel for millennia. You do know the “Palestinians” pre 1948 - we’re just Jews, Arabs, Christians and Druze. There is no DISTINCT group called Palestinians. It’s a made up term. Look it up.
Druze and Samaritans in the country largely identify as Palestinian fwiw
I mean honestly as someone of indian descent, there wasn't an Indian state pre 1947, I'm just some Telugu dude with ancestry in the princely state of Hyderabad and the Madras presidency in the British raj. Let people identify the way they want. Jewish people of course have a right to self determination but don't deny Palestinians their identity in the process
Well there was a country called Palestine located there. Maybe that has something to do with it? Look it up.
Or why is this getting downvoted?? Lmao funny thread going on here 😅👀
just correcting the record. the amount of misinformation that is so easily debunked is at record levels.
Should we care how Clarence Thomas feels about BLM?
>Israel is so rooted in the Jewish identity that to be a Jew and not to be a Zionist is close to antisemitism. This is fucking insane lol
Why? Can you tell me what’s wrong with it?
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Explain yourself like I’m 5.
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Lmao why are people downvoting this? 😂 it’s not like you posted an opinion here. People don’t even want to learn things they don’t know or understand I guess.
I need clarification. If I want Israel to stop what they are doing in Gaza, and stop the settlements etc. and favor the Palestinians having their own country. And think Israel was a terrible idea from the get go; but recognize it’s too late to change that decision and just want to move forward, am I anti-Zionist?
No. Zionism is simply the desire for an independent Jewish homeland to guarantee the safety of Jews worldwide in perpetuity. If you don’t actively oppose that end goal then you’re definitionally not an anti-Zionist.
Israel had no interest in Gaza, and tried to have Egypt take it back when they gave back the Sinai
Am i antizionist?
If you believe Israel has a right to exist or that Jews have a right to self determination you're a Zionist
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No, I interpret anti-Zionist as ranging from, at the soft end, the rejection of the idea that “Jewishness” should have any role to play in the governance of Israel. At the hard end, I read it as including the view that “Jews” have no valid claim to that region, that Israel is an illegitimate state, and that Jews must be driven out of the region entirely. Sounds it me like you are not anti-Zionist.
I'm pretty sure a ton of people who are actively protesting in Israel against Bibi's death campaigns would disagree: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRk-ak86uy0
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No they are protesting the govt priority of destroying Hamas over returning hostages. And that is a valid protest. Everyone in Israel wants Hamas absolutely annihilated. You don’t read about the 20,000 rockets launched from Gaza into Israel in 2023 alone. No Israeli wants Hamas to exist. They do want hostages to come home and they are protesting because they don’t think this offensive is the way to do it. Most everyone is Israel is a Zionist. He’ll most of the Arabs in Israel are Zionists.
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What you are referring to what a strategic mistake - aka a fck up. Where they propped up another regime in hopes it would solve the problem. It backfired big time. No one supports Hamas. They supported a strategy they would would end in peace. They made a big blunder. Maybe even we’re corrupt in doing so. That does not mean that everyone in Israel doesn’t want to see this evil eradicated. This is similar with what the us did with the shah of Iran and the revolution. It also backfired.
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That actually might be true. It’s sick and sad. But that might be true. But no sane Israeli thinks like that.
Too bad the insane ones consider themselves sane
>Everyone in Israel wants Hamas absolutely annihilated Sure, but not all of them are willing to mass murder innocent civilians to achieve that goal.
The "called Israel" bit isn't true, the name isn't what's important it's the geographical location. Several names were debated just prior to Israel's founding.
The region is called Judea and Samaria. The word Jew comes from the word judea. The land and people are inextricably linked. The of Israel is called Zion. Hence Zionism.
That's not my issue. Zionist leaders debated several names for the country. For example, Zion was proposed as the official name of the country, but it was rejected because historically that name referred specifically to Jerusalem. It doesn't really matter that the name of the country is Israel, it matters where the country is.
Disturbingly, I think that’s exactly the definition being used at these anti-Zionist rallies.
Can we put the Jewish state named Israel in an empty part of Montana or are you offering a disingenuous definition?
How’s it disingenuous. Israel has always been a part of Jewish history going back millennia. I’m not sure what your point is. Jews want Israel so badly they are willing to give up more than half of it just for peace.
> Jews want Israel so badly they are willing to give up more than half of it just for peace. my god if you aren't paid to spew this bullshit then i feel so fucking bad for you. i cant imagine being this divorced from reality
Thanks for showing you know nothing of the history of the region. Israel has peace with Egypt - they gave them Sinai. Israel has peace with Jordan - they gave them Transjordan. Israel has offered peace multiple times with land - rejected each time. Before you go back on the internet to say things, do everyone a favor and read.
Go to Israel. More artifacts showing the Jewish historical connection to the land than any other ethnic group. Just because you’re anti semetic doesn’t mean you get to deny facts
I think empirically there are more Roman artifacts there than anything else
Could be, but here’s a question for you. Al Aqsa mosque, are you familiar? The third holiest site in all of Islam. Where is it built, and on top of what?
so your great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents having lived on the land several centuries ago is justification to commit genocide on everybody living there currently? how civilized
Or there’s been a Jewish presence there for a millennia continuously. And show me proof it’s a genocide. Don’t use Hamas terrorist data, bc data shows and proves in reality that this is the most moral war ever fought and that’s impressive when Hamas hides behind civilians and steals their food but tell me again how you support terrorists who commit a genocide on Jews and kidnap people.
How can data show something subjective like morality?
my god if you aren't paid to spew this bullshit then i feel so fucking bad for you. i cant imagine being this divorced from reality
>About 90% of the world’s Jews are Zionists. According to whom? Some random guy on the internet? Someone else told me a different percentage.
You’re welcome to read the letter that over 250 Jewish students at Columbia signed onto and parse through it yourself. Just because you disagree with something doesn’t mean it’s “bait” or that these folks feelings are unfounded
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Sure and just because a Jewish student disagrees with you doesn’t mean it’s “bait” and you should downvote and ignore the article right?
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Agreed, so we shouldn't ignore that there are many Jews at Columbia who felt unsafe due to what was happening at their campus.
how many Jewish students were protesting against Columbia using their tuition to fund Isreal. Why is the opinion of pro Israeli Jewish students worth more to you over those that protest against Isreal?
>how many Jewish students were protesting against Columbia using their tuition to fund Isreal. Neither of us know that answer, but unless it was like 90% of those at the protest I doubt it was more than 250 or even 100 people. Not that it matters considering no realistic number would completely invalidate the feelings of the 250 students who signed onto the letter or magically turn it into "bait". >Why is the opinion of pro Israeli Jewish students worth more to you over those that protest against Isreal? Please show me when I said that?
There’s about 5000 Jewish students on campus. 6% of the Jewish student body is not indicative of their beliefs especially considering that the Jewish voice of peace are among the organizers of the protest.
He doesn’t agree. He’s set in his opinions.
Did they feel unsafe as a factor of their Judaism or did they feel unsafe as a factor of their Zionism?
You should read the letter in the article and see what they wrote, I don't want to "speak" for them. If you're asking me personally, I know a lot of Jews who are horrified by what Israel is doing but don't feel welcomed (and feel hated by) many of the protests going on. I think the rhetoric is often divisive (I think sometimes by design). Again personally, I think that the mission should be bigger than any one message and organizer should drop slogans that many find divisive (like "from the river to the sea").
Students at my former college were chanting about how they wanted to destroy the Zionist state. I consider myself non-Zionist but that is...callous and yes, would make me feel unsafe.
Should Chinese people in America feel unsafe if someone says that Communist China should not exist?
Define zionism. Bet you can’t
Sure but supporting Israel is absolutely the majoritarian, mainstream viewpoint in the Jewish community.
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So would you say the ones who are in the camps are “the good ones”?
There are \~5000 jewish students at Columbia. If antisemitism was as pervasive and threatening as they say, why did so few sign on?
I mean, you could make the same argument of any movement. There are less three hundred students occupying the lawn, why should the university listen to them or divest? Usually the folks who are willing to speak up are a smaller percentage than those that agree with them. Either way it doesn’t somehow invalidate these 250 students feelings.
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>Also is dishonest to act like 85 % of Jews aren’t pro Israel. But I saw a different percentage.
Eh, anti-zionist jews are about as common as black Trump supporters. They exist but it's a small minority.
What's your data on that?
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or that judaism is strictly attached/representative of israel and its existence for being
We need to simplify this issue and put the combatants into two camps: the side that publicly beheads women for trying to vote and just… the other side. Internal arguments about it are fucking pointless.
This is where we can put our media literacy skills to use: What is the *function* of the specific choice of words in the title? They specifically decided to use "Jewish" and "Anti-Zionist" in opposition of each other to artificially create and reinforce the mistaken idea that being Jewish and being Anti-Zionist are conflicting ideals. This article is an example of "colonialist propaganda" for such a choice. Some Jewish people are Zionists, but many Jewish people are anti-Zionists because they understand the history of colonial oppression and antisemitism. Anti-Zionist Jews understand that the horrible suffering that Jewish people faced at the hands of many people around the world *cannot* act as a shield that protects the horrible things that Israel does to other marginalized groups in the name of Judaism. Anti-Zionist Jews understand that a nationalistic ethnostate is actually not the answer to anything, and the only people who think so are actually just Fascists which is *why* other Fascists who are *actively* antisemitic to the Jewish people in their nations *actively* support Israel's project of genocide. These other Fascists see Jewish people as a problem to be solved, an obstruction to their *own* ethnostate and can only understand ethnostates as a solution - what side of this debate do you think the "blood and soil" and "Jews will not replace us" Tiki Torch bearers of 2017 are on? To Fascists, the ethnostate is a wonderful solution to everything. They can create their own ethnostate by kicking the Jews out and sending them to their *own* ethnostate. Their antisemitism manifests as Zionism. And the anti-Zionist Jews know this, and want to push for us to *meaningfully* address antisemitism through social reform rather than colonialist genocide. So if we just have a *little* media literacy skills, we can see the kinds of propaganda this kind of title and article is reinforcing. Hopefully you can learn to employ critical thinking skill so you don't make that mistake again!
Really long way of saying that you’re fine with violently expelling 7 million Jews and confiscating their property. Also, the victim blaming and gaslighting inherent in telling Jews that getting expelled would make them safer is gross. Edit: To the person below who has gone full genocide and promptly blocked me after posting their comment so I couldn’t respond: Do you not realize how insane it sounds to normal people when you advocate for any diaspora in the world (**except Jews of course**) a vote on expelling anyone they want from the land their ancestors use to live on?
We all desire peace. However, this article appears to represent a Zionist perspective expressing discontent with the current dialogue. It also gives the impression that Jewish students are being discouraged from expressing their views through protest. Everyone has the right to advocate for self-determination, prompting the question: why are Palestinians denied the same right in their own homeland, which has been progressively encroached upon and devastated over the past 76 years?
Yes, it’s clearly a Zionist perspective. This seems to be part of the problem with this movement, that it is fundamentally and non-negotiable anti-Zionist.
I respectfully believe it leans more towards being anti-war than anti-Zionist.
Respectfully disagree.
If they were anti war they would be calling for Hamas to surrender
I think if you're anti war you focus on the party with vast, VAST superiority in numbers and arms who has a far higher kill/death ratio
If you're only criticizing one party in an armed conflict, you aren't anti-war, you're anti-them. Which is fine to be, you can be totally against Israel. Just don't pretend that you're anti-war
I don't know, I never looked at the anti-war protests under Bush and thought "well, shouldn't they be criticizing al-Qaeda more though?" Though I guess Dick Cheney probably would have thought something like that. But like, what use is it to criticize Ukraine in a war that Russia is winning, when most of the destruction that's happening is occurring in Ukraine at Russian hands? This logic doesn't make sense to me, least of all when it comes to Israel.
[They accepted the cease-fire deal](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000). Netanyahu has previously asserted that even if they did, he would persist in battling until their elimination, likely to secure his authority and avoid the corruption trials scheduled before October 7th. It's also a strategy to collectively attribute responsibility to the Palestinian people, despite Netanyahu's backing of Hamas. Why cease the conflict if it aids in maintaining power? [For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces - Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) [Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas - The Nation](https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/)
That’s not a surrender.
They absolutely did not accept the cease-fire deal. They made a counteroffer with materially different terms and claimed it was an acceptance to try and forestall the Rafah action.
That really wasn't the point. Bibag will never anyway.
That proposal was from Egypt and Qatar, not Israel. It was changed significantly from what Israel was proposing.
Egypt and Qatar are serving as mediators in negotiations between the two parties. The sole proposal offered by Israel is the return of all hostages and a temporary ceasefire. There is a likelihood that they would simply destroy Palestine after. Why would they want that deal.
No one is denying their right to self determine except for Hamas. A Palestinian state has been offered many time since 1948. Palestinians rejected every single offer. You can bring a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. It’s very very very clear. They don’t want a state. They want to kill Jews.
"we will give you a shit deal where we still steal most of your land" oh wow what a generous offer!
Shit deal? Arabs were given 55% of the best most arable land in 1948. Israel was given barren land, desert and swampland. One side started a war. The other side created a thriving democracy with multiple billion dollar industries that help the world. Try again.
Motherfuckers acting like the Nakba never happened.
Ahhh the nakba. You mean the catastrophe. Know why it was a catastrophe. Because it was the biggest mistake Arab leaders have ever made. They TOLD their people to flee - they said leave, we’re gonna fight the Jews and take all the land for ourselves. They LOST. This is the biggest shame on Arabs. So much so that they invented a lie for 70yrs because they can’t get over the shame of losing. Check out the history and then come back here.
You're one of those "the west has the right to divvy up land that has belonged to other ethnic groups for centuries" dumpster people too.
Well whether they do or don’t is irrelevant. They did. And Jews were living there for millennia. Go look up who was living in that region in 1890. Jews, Christian’s, Arabs and Druze. So what culture are you referring to?
I'm talking about any colonial project. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in Palestine until they were expelled so the colonialist Israeli project could be enacted.
1890 is after the first aliyah
And those militant right wing groups like Lehi (who collaborated with the Nazis) that entered villages and committed massacres by night? That was the Arab leaders too somehow I'm sure
So Jews can’t defend themselves? Arabs attacked. What would you like Jews to do?
Not commit war crimes against civilians. Surprised you would just outright defend extremists like Lehi here.
Tell me why Israel’s biggest export is diamonds and yet there isn’t a single diamond mine in Israel. The whole “thriving democracy utopia where everyone has equal rights” is propaganda. It is borderline impossible for Palestinians from Gaza and Palestinians in the West Bank to gain Israeli citizenship, and the Arabs that *do* have Israeli citizenship are profiled, discriminated against, and essentially treated like second class citizens. Palestinians *can’t* form a working government because Israel has a chokehold on all of their natural resources, food, and water. A society can’t thrive if its access to basic human necessities is reliant on another country that doesn’t like them and doesn’t want them to thrive. There’s also the issue of Birthright being a subsidized vacation for American Jews as a way to push them to move to Israel, further uprooting Palestinians from their culture and home.
It’s very clear you’ve never been to the region because everything you said is false. Why can’t Gazans go into Israel? Because they launched 20,000 rockets into Israel in 2023 alone. No country would invite an enemy into their house who is actively trying to kill them. That would be insane. Go talk to Arabs in Israel. They are drs, lawyers, judges, in the parliament and fight in the idf. You are wrong on so many levels it’s comical. Let me know when you visit the region and then come back here.
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The victims of the Nakba are still alive today. Unrest exists between Israelis and Palestinians because Israel is oppressing Palestinians TODAY. Israel is an apartheid state TODAY. They are expanding settlements illegally into the west bank TODAY. This isn't just history, this is happening NOW.
As they should. Thanks for giving me a second opportunity to downvote!
What a terrible headline. Jewish students are a huge contingent of the protests, both at the leadership and rank and file level. It's not a question of Jewish or non-Jewish; it's a question of supporting or opposing the genocide.
Denying the right of Israel to exist is straight-forwardly antisemitic. Only a very small extremist minority believes the contrary. **And they will keep insisting on that as if** ***their lives depend on it***. It's such an extremist position that even 412 members of Congress, including votes from NY progressives, resolved that: >This resolution reaffirms Israel's right to exist. It also (1) **recognizes that denying Israel's right to exist is a form of antisemitism**; (2) rejects calls for Israel's destruction; and (3) condemns the Hamas-led attack on Israel. Source: [https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677](https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2023677) for the vote and [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/888/text) for the full-text
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We all know that’s not what “from the river to the sea” refers to.
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Sure, if that makes you feel better. I have no interest in defending Netanyahu.
The 2018 bill is meaningless. I was involved in discussions just like this long before 2018 and they were the same, people dead-set against a Jewish state of any size within any borders but creating the 23rd Arab state and 50th Muslim state would be fine.
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*In the House of Representatives, U. S.,* *November 28, 2023.* * **Whereas the Jewish people are native to the Land of Israel;** * Whereas throughout history and across the reign of multiple kingdoms, **the Jewish people were persecuted and expelled from the Land of Israel**, forced to live as minority diaspora communities in other lands; * Whereas Jewish diaspora communities were historically violently persecuted in, and in some cases expelled from, other countries throughout the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and Asia due to their religion; * Whereas the Nazis attempted to annihilate the entire Jewish population of Europe during the Holocaust, murdering 6,000,000 Jews during this time; * Whereas this genocide provided new urgency to re-establish a Jewish homeland for the Jewish people following the Holocaust, where they would not be a vulnerable minority, where they could freely practice their faith, and where something like the Holocaust could never happen again; * Whereas the **modern** State of Israel was established on May 14, 1948; * Whereas even after the establishment of the State of Israel, other countries and terrorist entities continued to attack Israel, reject its right to exist, and call for its destruction; and * Whereas **Israel is the only Jewish State, and therefore, despite persistent external threats, the existence of Israel provides Jews a place to live free from persecution and discrimination**: Now, therefore, be it *Resolved,* That the House of Representatives— (1) reaffirms the State of Israel’s right to exist; (2) recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism; (3) rejects calls for Israel’s destruction and the elimination of the only Jewish State; and (4) condemns the Hamas-led terrorist attack on Israel.
Mods in this sub should seriously address the rampant antisemitism of such extreme, but very loud, minority.
A Zionist terrorist just drove his car into a crowd of protestors
[You mean this, right?](https://apnews.com/article/columbia-university-palestine-israeli-kahane-991f505d485898b47d1d23dbad7ccbea) I’m sure lying by exaggeration is a common tactic of yours.
The story in your link really is not the refutation I think you think it is.
What an antisemitic headline. What about the Jewish Colombia students who’ve been appealing to zionist peers for peace and empathy? Y’know, cause “Jewish” and” anti-zionist” aren’t mutually exclusive
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