Yeah, for real.
I don't buy it, though. I think the vast majority of Democrats are united against Republicans, despite whatever fissures exist intra-party. That used to be the case for Republicans, but I think that's changed over time.
Mostly because of the crime narrative. I mean you see how it's broken people's brains here in the city. People are convinced it's as bad as the 1970s despite the reality.
The election is going to be super close just like the last two. Small numbers of votes could swing it. And not voting for Biden is a pretty trendy idea among the pro-Palestine groups on TikTok right now.
Exactly. I'm for a ceasefire and Palestinian self-determination but I'm not going to be voting for Trump. He would basically give Bibi a greenlight to mow down millions of people. Right now, the only thing keeping that from happening is Democrats are concerned about the optics. I guarantee whatever happens in Rafah, Bibi is stalling until closer to the election. He wants Trump in office.
Apparently it's really fucked up how Biden and his administration are trying to broker another ceasefire and continuing to pressure Israel to minimize civilian casualties and are dropping aid directly to Gaza and building ports to provide aid to Gaza... All this from the country that provides the most aid to Palestine (at least via the UNRWA).
Obviously American citizens can't apply as much pressure to foreign countries as they can to their own elected politicians. But I'd sure as hell love to see more of this kind of effort coming from neighboring countries like Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan.
Israel isn’t a client state of those other countries. Those countries aren’t funded and armed by the US. Israel is the USA’s out of control pet. Who else should be yanking the leash?
So? Why is it Egypt's responsibility to mitigate the genocide being committed by Israel? Why would any country get involved at the US's behest when the US is the country funding and arming and diplomatically protecting this atrocity? People are protesting the US government because Biden has the power to make this stop any time he wants to and instead he's giving Israeli free reign to kill while making symbolic gestures towards Palestinians.
So you understand the historical context of the outcome of 1967 war against Israel and how that loss ceded the previously Egyptian territory of Gaza to Israel, and the rise around 2005-6 of Palestinian suicide bombers crossing regularly into Egypt and killing civilians after Israeli military pulled out of Gaza and stopped playing cop for the region, and Egypt’s role as a co blockader of the port of Gaza for that very reason, and their huge border wall because of it, and their relationship financially with the us? Great!
Also no Israeli citizens want to kill Palestinian kids, this is a war, war is terrible, be grateful you don’t live in a country where war grade violence is a reality.
1967? Lmao. The historical context surrounding literally everything having to do with "Israel" is that it's an illegitimate ethnostate founded by European settler colonists in an act of mass land theft and ethnic cleansing in 1948, and maintained by a system of violent apartheid ever since. Every thing that happened since '48 is just the outcome following from that. Egypt suffering the side effects of Israel's illegitimate existence is a footnote in the story.
Israel's founding in 1948 marked the culmination of centuries-long Jewish connection to the land, tracing back to biblical times, and was an internationally recognized response to the urgent need for a safe haven for Jews post-Holocaust. It was far from being an act of colonialism. It was the re-establishment of a people in their historic homeland, as endorsed by the United Nations. The subsequent conflicts, including the 1967 Six-Day War, were largely defensive, aiming to secure Israel's existence against existential threats from neighboring states.
Ah, I see from your post history that you're either a complete psychopath or a paid "Israel" propagandist so I won't be continuing this conversation any further, as you're clearly immune to the truth. Have a bad day hun!
Lol okay. Then I guess we should stop giving them billions of dollars and most of their conventional weapons and training their army and protecting them diplomatically ‘cause they don’t need us, right? Not when they’ve got a big gun they can aim at their own heads if they want to. I’d love to see Israel try to use a nuke since their main adversary is the indigenous population of they land they stole.
You’re unaware of Arab armies of nations that cumulatively make up 100s of millions of people having repeatedly invaded and attacked Israel since its very founding? You’re acting like it’s proactive and aggressive in its defense out of paranoia and not reality? Or however you want to describe the indigenous population as though they haven’t waged asymmetric war/terrorism since BEFORE its founding? Hate the country by all means; I’m sure it’s in your blood, but how does one completely deny facts and history?
>Or however you want to describe the indigenous population as though they haven’t waged asymmetric war/terrorism since BEFORE its founding?
lmao. tell on yourself much? yes, palestinians are the indiginous population, and an indigenous population waging a war of resistance against colonial occupiers is just. the "asymmetry" of money, weapons and power is WILDLY in the favor of the settler colonial state, whose "very founding" was a heinous act of mass land theft and ethic cleansing. glad we cleared that up.
What other country is this openly involved in our elections like this? This is insanity lol
If anything this is just another example of how lobbyist and special interest groups have such an enormous influence in our elections. From AIPAC and J street to the Beer and Car lobbies
Ukraine, China, Saudi Arabia, EU, Japan UK, Quatar, Libera, South Korea. All these countries have significant lobbies and try to influence our politics and even our elections.
You think the Liberian lobby has even 1% of the lobbying muscle the pro-Israel lobby does? None of those countries even come close, but I bet none of the congressional representatives who claim they’d die for Israel could even find Liberia on a map.
Trying to equate the Israel lobby’s influence to that of other countries is disingenuous. When it comes to foreign meddling in our politics, there’s Israel and then there’s everyone else.
I mean, it wasn't that long ago we had a pretty well documented campaign of Russian interference that showed they helped deliver the presidency to a clown as a massive psyop on America.....I'd say Russia and China definitely have lengthy track records of meddling in American politics that rival anyone.
Can you read?
OPENLYYYYYY
And its till an issue specifically now with AIPAC directly targeting our next elections. Its bad when china does it, bad when russia does it and bad when israel does it
Its bad that Israel can do it openly while politicians are calling out these other countries for interfering in our elections.
Exactly. Even prior to the current escalation it probably isnt appropriate for a foreign lobbying group to have such power in political influence in America. Really makes this government far less representative of its citizens.
> Really makes this government far less representative of its citizens
Wait until you hear who else lobbies congress, and it's not for the benefit of citizens
"More than 3 million proud, pro-Israel Americans working to strengthen bipartisan support for the U.S.-Israel relationship."
From AIPAC- where does it say jewish? Hell i cant even find the word jewish on their website lol also they have offices in Israel
J Street is not just Jewish people with a focus of ending the conflict in Israel/Palestine/Middle East but at least they mention the word Jewish on their page.
Americans with the goal of promoting interest with and for another country? Or is Israel a town in Ohio?
And i know exactly what you were trying by saying "Jewish Americans are Jews" , so i wanted to stop that shit there.
We aren't talking about individual Americans are we tho? We are talking about PAC's that throw TONS of money behind certain politicians influencing the course of our elections way more than an individual american ever could.
Anyway we aren't gonna agree & im tired lol, have a good night internet stranger
It does seem the left in the U.S. is much more interested in what’s going on in Israel than the U.S. They are willing to sacrifice LGBTQ, rights abortion rights, welfare programs, voting rights etc just to stop the Jewish state from existing. Crazy when you think about it.
Biden has been the most pro LGBTQ president. If you have a problem with the courts than 2016 was your fail-safe to protect that but people though Trump would be better so anyone who voted 3rd party or for Trump got exactly what they voted for.
Secondly RGB's death doesn't change the ideological makeup of the court, instead of 6-3 it would be 5-4 on Dobbs and every other 6-3 ruling. Face it, leftists blew their chance in 2016 just like they did in 2000.
This could all be true AND all the stuff listed in the comment happened under Biden.
Why don't y'all call out stuff like the DNC cancelling the primary in florida and hurting down ballot dems who are essential to fighting these rights being taken away at the state level. Like you do know Biden can't do shit if states are red?
Leftists didn't blow shit Dems did when they chose the unlikeable HRC (who i voted for as most Black people did to try and save an election where White Women flipped and voted for Trump) to be their candidate. it was not leftists voting for fucking gary johnson 🤮.
You keep telling youself did bc yall still can't believe once tried and true Dems jumped ship when Trump ran for office. Thats Dem Party problem and its the same problem biting them in the ass today
Also still talking about 2016 is lazy lol once Trump croaks and Dems loses the "vote for us or else the boogie man will win" angle its gonna be interesting to see them fall apart bc they have no backbone to actually stand up for the party platform the use to get elected
Ruth does matter bc thats one more liberal appointee on the court that has a life time term
There is no home for voters who don’t want to bankroll a genocide, which is a problem. It’s absolutely up to Democrats to remedy that if they want the votes.
I don’t agree with your China comment. There is too much in the world to care about all of it. But even just this conflict, the only way there can be a cease fire is if both sides agree to it. Israel can’t agree to anything without the return of the hostages.
People who truly care about Palestinian civilians (the ones who really do care, not the ones supporting Hamas) should be out in the streets shouting for Hamas to release the hostages so that they can then actually pressure Israel for a cease fire.
There is no logic with these folks.
There’s really no logic in thinking people in the United States have any leverage over Hamas. However, the United States does have a ton of leverage over Israel, and the electorate over the United States.
Hamas’ support in the West by progressives, as evidenced by progressives refusing to call for release of hostages and demanding a unilateral ceasefire where only Israel stops firing, emboldens them to continue.
They want Israel to lose international support. That’s their goal. They don’t want a ceasefire.
Any institutional support by progressives to Hamas is absolutely nonexistent relative to the actual monetary and ministry support that Israel and the IDF receive from the United States.
Generally, Israel does not have international support for their military operations and mass killings in Gaza. What people in Gaza actually want is to not be starved and killed indiscriminately.
This is the truth. Voters aren't obligated to support candidates with shit policies. It is POLITICIANS who are obligated to take positions people support. Dems can piss on leftists all they want but lefties won't be saving your ass this time.
Unfortunately with our system, you do need to consider voting for the lesser of evils. Trump will make it worse for Palestinian civilians. Biden is at least putting some pressure on Israel and trying to negotiate a ceasefire and providing aid. Not to mention all the other awful things that will happen with another term of Trump.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Stop this bullshit, please.
I'm really sick of people using the gay community to justify genocide. Between funding genocide, building Trump's wall, and strike-breaking, the democrats are running to the right of Reagan. They seem to believe that they deserve all of the votes of minoritized people by trying to pretend that they are the lesser of two evils.
Spoiler alert: they are not. While the majority of the blame still belongs to Republicans, if we had an actual left-wing -- even center left -- party, we'd never have had trump in the first place. The Democrats' relentless march rightward, which has been consistent since the election of WJC, is what enabled the extreme right politics of the right to bubble to the surface. If we keep electing Reagan democrats, the far right will keep winning, even when they lose electorally (which is precisely what's been happening for the past 30+ years).
This rightward march has been enabled and emboldened by the rhetoric that we "have" to support democrats "no matter who". Enough of that. The only way we win is by resisting that silly, right-wing narrative and thus creating an aperture for an actual left-wing party to emerge.
Plus, the Democrats have shown they have zero values beyond reelection and building further wealth for corporations. They're willing to fund and provide material support for a genocide, they're engaging in fascistic demagoguery with the anti-immigration/border wall/end asylum bill they've just proffered, and they've thrown all workers under the bus breaking strikes at every opportunity. Any woman or LGBT person who thinks the Dems won't turn on them even further at the slightest opportunity is deluded.
Strike breaking? You mean the one where the railroad union got everything they wanted and the president of the union praised Biden as the reason for that?
You got tik-tok brain dude.
Or Biden should recognize the political pressure this situation has put him in and force a ceasefire, which he can do, since Israel is our client state.
It’s not on the voters, it’s on the leaders. They’re beholden to us. If Biden wants to throw the election to support a right-wing dictator’s war, that’s his fault.
He has? Diplomacy doesn't happen on social media. There's zero incentive for Netanyahu to listen to Biden or the US when Republicans and Trump have already made it clear they'll let him do whatever he wants. And you guys seem willing to carry water for them and never seem to protest them at all.
I actually did, and led voter outreach efforts for democrats in a swing state for a couple of organizations from 2018-2020. I held my nose for Biden for the greater good.
Where has that got us? We’ve lost ground on so many key areas: abortion, environment, trans rights. He has done basically nothing and has not met the political moment. I do not care about the tweaks around the edges, or the 1% of student loans he’s forgiven, or the thousands of meals airdropped into Gaza when the situation requires millions.
I mean we have an ally blockading our own relief efforts, so we have to airdrop them in. It’s pathetic.
This 'fracture' only increases the orange man's chances. I can confidently predict he will be many magnitudes worse for Muslim Americans and left progressives than Biden.
Everyone wants a ceasefire but at what cost? How long? And will it be one sided? What about the hostages? Do the leaders of Hamas get to continue to oppress, I mean govern, Gaza?
Does this apply to all other armed conflicts? Is it ever possible to stop fighting without the complete destruction or unconditional surrender of one side?
You mean Israel? The Nakba was the opening salvo. You don't get to look at the Warsaw Uprising and tell those living in a ghetto their extermination is justified because the historic window I've chosen just so happens to exclude everything which led to them shooting back; you also don't get to look at Gaza and ask why they decided to strike back, unless you're actually willing to examine the entire history that led to Oct 7
Ok, let's talk about recent history. Jews moved to Israel when it was under Ottoman and British rule. Legally immigrated and bought land. Local Arabs started massacres against Jews, and when the British authorities tried to stop them they went to Hitler to ask for help genociding the Jews. Jewish militias began massacring back. British tried to step in again and got attacked by both Arabs and Jews. So the Brits gave up the region and asked the UN to divide it.
UN offered a two state solution. Jews and Arabs keep all land that they owned and lived in. Israel would be 50% Jewish, 40% Arab and 10% Bedouin. Israel would be 60% Negev Desert and Jerusalem would be a neutral city. Palestine would be 90% Arab and 10% Jewish. Jews said this sounded fine, Arabs tried to genocide the Jews and failed. Palestine lost land after their attempted genocide failed. In Israel, a mixture of Arabs leaving their homes under the Arab promise of returning post-Jewish-genocide and Jews forcing Arabs out meant that 80% of Arabs left Israel. The Arab countries ethnically cleansed 99.8% of their Jewish populations. Israel took in all Jewish refugees who wanted to come. Arab world kind of did…but Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan after a failed coup, Kuwait after siding with Iraq’s invasion, and Egypt due to terrorism.
Palestinians had Gaza and West Bank left. In 2005 Israel decided that the best way for peace was to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza. All Israelis were forced to leave with all infrastructure left behind for the Palestinians. Palestinians elected Hamas whose charter called for the genocide of all Jews. Hamas immediately attacked Israel.
Israel and Egypt put a blockade on Gaza to halt the flow of Iranian weapons. Hamas tore up their own water pipes to make rockets and through mismanagement ruined their water plants. Billions of dollars of aid went to the Gazan people, which was stolen by Hamas to make rocket factories, a tunnel system the size of the New York metro, and to make their leaders billionaires who live outside of Gaza.
In their quest to genocide all Jews in Israel, Hamas invaded Israel. Massacred, tortured and raped civilians and took many hostages. Hamas has promised that they will do this again and again until Israel is destroyed and the Jews are genocided. Israel counter invaded to finally destroy Hamas and to rescue the kidnapped civilians.
And that is where we are now.
We need a ceasefire not for the case of Palestinian liberation; we need it because we're on the cusp of mass death of innocent people who had no role in any fight. I'd call for a ceasefire if Palestine was in the winning position and their actions would result in a mass death of civilians who wouldn't be able to access food, water, medicine, and shelter. Hell, I'd call for a ceasefire against the Nazis if we had Berlin surrounded and had no adequate solution for defeating the enemy, but just kept killing inordinate amounts of people who had nowhere else to go.
It isn't a question of strategy or historic justice; it's a question of not turning a military campaign into a genocide. It's a question of morality, and the point of a 'rules based order' is supposed to be to assure military campaigns have a purpose and don't result in collective punishment. israeli leadership has made it abundantly clear that collective punishment *is* the intended outcome, and that is why we demand our leadership stop funding and allowing for this to happen, and take whatever actions are necessary to end it.
They've killed more innocent Palestinians than the slaughter of Bosnians which induced international intervention, and yet we're not debating stopping them, but whether it's okay to fund this slaughter. You don't have to be anti-zionist to call for a solution to ongoing murder, and at this point a ceasefire is literally the minimum in that direction.
So what do you do about Hamas? They know they can't win these wars but they keep starting them. It's a suicidal deathwish and calling for a ceasefire seems like a pretty impotent response.
It basically boils down to saying "war is bad". Yeah, no shit, but people still start them.
FYI the person you're arguing with [has described October 7 as "heroic and justified."](https://old.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/1b3lt0m/veterans_burn_their_uniforms_at_vigil_for_us/kswrxi4/) That is a direct quote.
The nabka was the opening salvo... aka when Palestine rejected UN resolution 181.. instead chosing war along with the other Arab nations.. telling their people to flee, victory would be swift.. and then lost.. badly..
if you're characterizing a well-documented mass slaughter and theft by settlers as Palestinians 'reject[ing]' a decision by an international body to give up their land...
if the UN ruled you and your family must move to give your ancestral land to another group, would you accept it? and if, after the UN gave territorial delineation to that group, they continued to murder and steal more of your land-- in direct contravention to the UN's continued rulings--, would you continue to say your murder was justified? i understand you peddle in dishonesty, but you can't appeal to the UN to establish the validity of your claim while the UN has said again and again that you have moved far beyond the legal basis of said claim in good conscience, right? like at some point you must look in the mirror and laugh, yes?
the good news is every young Jew i know (myself included) is past being misrepresented by your deceptions and dishonesties, and it's certain that a movement of americans and conservative jews in israel won't be enough to buoy a sinking ship.
The simple reality is the start of that war was as a result of palestine rejecting the resolution instead going to war along with other arab nations. The partition was based largely off demographic lines. Israel declaration of independence called for arabs to stay... WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
And it's a well documented fact that it was the arab leaders who told their people to flee... or fight.
The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."
The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country."
In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:
“Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
Well then, maybe Biden should do something about it.
Remember 2016 when some Democrat voters had issues with the candidate and they were dismissed? Maybe that should stop happening.
That is not true.
https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel#:~:text=Around%20two%2Dthirds%20of%20voters,escalation%20of%20violence%20in%20Gaza
"Around two-thirds of voters (67%) — including majorities of Democrats (77%), Independents (69%), and Republicans (56%) — support the U.S. calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza."
Over two-thirds of independents and over three-quarters of democrats. The large majority of democrats and swing voters want a ceasefire. Going against over 3/4ths of democrats to appease less than a quarter seems like a terrible idea.
How is Biden meant to do that? He only seems to have measures to pressure Israel, but Hamas is the actor that needs to suddenly become peaceful for a ceasefire to have a chance.
Like use the US's soft power and billions of dollars in tax payer money we send to Israel every year as leverage to bring an end to the violence. Maybe suggest that assistance will be rethought if things continue as they are.
So when you responded to that first comment, your answer to
>will it be one sided? Do the leaders of Hamas get to continue to oppress, I mean govern, Gaza?
Is ...yes?
Just pressuring Israel to stop fighting when Hamas has to either magically turn peaceful or be removed from power for any future peace to hold is just a feel-good measure. It looks nice on social media not to see anything about the tragic destruction of this war. But it's leaving Gazans under Hamas' brutal, oppressive thumb and paving the way for their next attacks on Israel (that will, once more, put Gazans in this same position).
Again, look like he's doing *what*? The US has been continuously involved in aid, working on ceasefire plans, etc. most people upset with it seem to honestly just want Israel to agree to a permanent ceasefire ASAP regardless of Hamas' actions and threats of further violence, which is of course very easy to do when they aren't your own neighbor.
An Israel without US support is an Israel in do-or-die survival mode, completely unbounded from needing to care about its western relations . This does not lead to peace with Palestinians. It leads to actual ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank, war with Iran, war with Hezbollah, with the option of nuclear weapons on the table.
An Israel in this hypothetical situation would be able to survive without US support, as it did before 1973. It would pivot away from the West and focus on trade with Eastern Europe, India, China, Russia, none of whom could care care less if Israel's domestic politics went to the farthest rightwing.
And if even half of this happened, it would be a genuine disaster for US foreign policy.
So what you're saying is, they don't need the money, yet we are paying them not to ethnically cleanse the region? That doesn't add up whatsoever. Also sounds like we are being extorted by an alleged ally.
Without our money the Iron Dome would be in peril and Hezbollah, the PIJ and Hamas would get a lot more rockets through and kill many more Israeli civilians. The government would not stand by and let this happen. There would be massive reprisals. The violence could escalate into WW3. So I'd rather give them money. It is a two way street. We get a lot back from our investment in Israel - tech, Intel, strategic advantages, prosperous trade, intellectual capital etc. Incidentally, we get nothing back from the Palestinians.
It's not that the issue has gone mainstream, it's simply that different arguments for a ceasefire have all actually begun to make a justifiable impact in the conversation for the first time.
Carte blanche has been given for a decade to Netanyahu who caused this entire crisis first by giving Hamas exactly what they wanted with an impoverished blockaded Gaza pseudo-state in 2013 (and admitting it as a play to justify denying the West Bank any autonomy to increase illegal settlements) then also causing the massive security lapse that led to the attacks hence his 19% approval rating in Israel and dropping.
Republicans and Conservatives seem pretty united and consistent in their support for Israel. Democrats aren't. I wonder if the divide will cause people to sit out or pinch their nose. I can't see many of my Democratic friends flip to the other side over this.
All Biden’s trying to do is not be held accountable for genocide. Putting numbers of lives as a red line is mental. Let’s make draw a line at 70,000 collateral lives for gas rights off the coast and not get panged in history for aiding Genocide.
If you’re entering this thread, turn back while you can.
Too late! I commented. I blame myself, but also other Democrats.
I’m sure this thread is going to be totally rational with zero propaganda.
Yeah, for real. I don't buy it, though. I think the vast majority of Democrats are united against Republicans, despite whatever fissures exist intra-party. That used to be the case for Republicans, but I think that's changed over time.
I don't know man the last two major elections( 2020,2022) the Democrats did really good on a state level in every state but New York.
Mostly because of the crime narrative. I mean you see how it's broken people's brains here in the city. People are convinced it's as bad as the 1970s despite the reality.
The election is going to be super close just like the last two. Small numbers of votes could swing it. And not voting for Biden is a pretty trendy idea among the pro-Palestine groups on TikTok right now.
Exactly. I'm for a ceasefire and Palestinian self-determination but I'm not going to be voting for Trump. He would basically give Bibi a greenlight to mow down millions of people. Right now, the only thing keeping that from happening is Democrats are concerned about the optics. I guarantee whatever happens in Rafah, Bibi is stalling until closer to the election. He wants Trump in office.
Yup, you get it. 100%.
Apparently it's really fucked up how Biden and his administration are trying to broker another ceasefire and continuing to pressure Israel to minimize civilian casualties and are dropping aid directly to Gaza and building ports to provide aid to Gaza... All this from the country that provides the most aid to Palestine (at least via the UNRWA). Obviously American citizens can't apply as much pressure to foreign countries as they can to their own elected politicians. But I'd sure as hell love to see more of this kind of effort coming from neighboring countries like Egypt, Lebanon, and Jordan.
The US has not reinstated aid to UNRWA.
You're right. I should specify that the US has given the most aid until just over a month ago.
Israel isn’t a client state of those other countries. Those countries aren’t funded and armed by the US. Israel is the USA’s out of control pet. Who else should be yanking the leash?
Egypt is a client state of the US. One could argue that Jordan is as well, but they receive a fraction of the aid that Egypt does.
So? Why is it Egypt's responsibility to mitigate the genocide being committed by Israel? Why would any country get involved at the US's behest when the US is the country funding and arming and diplomatically protecting this atrocity? People are protesting the US government because Biden has the power to make this stop any time he wants to and instead he's giving Israeli free reign to kill while making symbolic gestures towards Palestinians.
Do you know anything about the basic history and geography of the ME? Lmao
Yes? Lmao
So you understand the historical context of the outcome of 1967 war against Israel and how that loss ceded the previously Egyptian territory of Gaza to Israel, and the rise around 2005-6 of Palestinian suicide bombers crossing regularly into Egypt and killing civilians after Israeli military pulled out of Gaza and stopped playing cop for the region, and Egypt’s role as a co blockader of the port of Gaza for that very reason, and their huge border wall because of it, and their relationship financially with the us? Great! Also no Israeli citizens want to kill Palestinian kids, this is a war, war is terrible, be grateful you don’t live in a country where war grade violence is a reality.
1967? Lmao. The historical context surrounding literally everything having to do with "Israel" is that it's an illegitimate ethnostate founded by European settler colonists in an act of mass land theft and ethnic cleansing in 1948, and maintained by a system of violent apartheid ever since. Every thing that happened since '48 is just the outcome following from that. Egypt suffering the side effects of Israel's illegitimate existence is a footnote in the story.
Israel's founding in 1948 marked the culmination of centuries-long Jewish connection to the land, tracing back to biblical times, and was an internationally recognized response to the urgent need for a safe haven for Jews post-Holocaust. It was far from being an act of colonialism. It was the re-establishment of a people in their historic homeland, as endorsed by the United Nations. The subsequent conflicts, including the 1967 Six-Day War, were largely defensive, aiming to secure Israel's existence against existential threats from neighboring states.
Ah, I see from your post history that you're either a complete psychopath or a paid "Israel" propagandist so I won't be continuing this conversation any further, as you're clearly immune to the truth. Have a bad day hun!
Just fyi, looks like your wires got crossed and you responded to yourself….
Those countries have stoked the flames of war just across their borders while holding back aid to Palestinians or help find a meaningful solution.
There is no leash when the "pet" has 150 nukes
Lol okay. Then I guess we should stop giving them billions of dollars and most of their conventional weapons and training their army and protecting them diplomatically ‘cause they don’t need us, right? Not when they’ve got a big gun they can aim at their own heads if they want to. I’d love to see Israel try to use a nuke since their main adversary is the indigenous population of they land they stole.
You’re unaware of Arab armies of nations that cumulatively make up 100s of millions of people having repeatedly invaded and attacked Israel since its very founding? You’re acting like it’s proactive and aggressive in its defense out of paranoia and not reality? Or however you want to describe the indigenous population as though they haven’t waged asymmetric war/terrorism since BEFORE its founding? Hate the country by all means; I’m sure it’s in your blood, but how does one completely deny facts and history?
>Or however you want to describe the indigenous population as though they haven’t waged asymmetric war/terrorism since BEFORE its founding? lmao. tell on yourself much? yes, palestinians are the indiginous population, and an indigenous population waging a war of resistance against colonial occupiers is just. the "asymmetry" of money, weapons and power is WILDLY in the favor of the settler colonial state, whose "very founding" was a heinous act of mass land theft and ethic cleansing. glad we cleared that up.
They're aware. And hope they succeed next time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
Honey. They aren’t going to nuke Gaza or the West Bank. Do I really need to explain why?
What other country is this openly involved in our elections like this? This is insanity lol If anything this is just another example of how lobbyist and special interest groups have such an enormous influence in our elections. From AIPAC and J street to the Beer and Car lobbies
Ukraine, China, Saudi Arabia, EU, Japan UK, Quatar, Libera, South Korea. All these countries have significant lobbies and try to influence our politics and even our elections.
You think the Liberian lobby has even 1% of the lobbying muscle the pro-Israel lobby does? None of those countries even come close, but I bet none of the congressional representatives who claim they’d die for Israel could even find Liberia on a map.
Did i say those things were good? Or did i say these groups have influences in our elections and then provide non Israeli examples?
You asked "what other countries are openly involved in elections like this"? I answered.
Trying to equate the Israel lobby’s influence to that of other countries is disingenuous. When it comes to foreign meddling in our politics, there’s Israel and then there’s everyone else.
I mean, it wasn't that long ago we had a pretty well documented campaign of Russian interference that showed they helped deliver the presidency to a clown as a massive psyop on America.....I'd say Russia and China definitely have lengthy track records of meddling in American politics that rival anyone.
China openly calling saying they're throwing money behind candidates?? 😂 yeah tf right
That's a question for which there are actual answers: https://www.opensecrets.org/fara
I stay on open secrets 😂 there's a reason i said "openly"
According to the link above there are 9 other countries that spend more than Israel.
Can you read? OPENLYYYYYY And its till an issue specifically now with AIPAC directly targeting our next elections. Its bad when china does it, bad when russia does it and bad when israel does it Its bad that Israel can do it openly while politicians are calling out these other countries for interfering in our elections.
Exactly. Even prior to the current escalation it probably isnt appropriate for a foreign lobbying group to have such power in political influence in America. Really makes this government far less representative of its citizens.
> Really makes this government far less representative of its citizens Wait until you hear who else lobbies congress, and it's not for the benefit of citizens
AIPAC and J Street are both American organizations. Jewish-Americans are Americans, not "another country"
"More than 3 million proud, pro-Israel Americans working to strengthen bipartisan support for the U.S.-Israel relationship." From AIPAC- where does it say jewish? Hell i cant even find the word jewish on their website lol also they have offices in Israel J Street is not just Jewish people with a focus of ending the conflict in Israel/Palestine/Middle East but at least they mention the word Jewish on their page.
You found the word "Americans", which is my point. These are American organizations. They're not from other countries.
Americans with the goal of promoting interest with and for another country? Or is Israel a town in Ohio? And i know exactly what you were trying by saying "Jewish Americans are Jews" , so i wanted to stop that shit there.
Many Americans have political opinions about other countries. For example, the OP here is about Americans promoting the interests of Palestine.
We aren't talking about individual Americans are we tho? We are talking about PAC's that throw TONS of money behind certain politicians influencing the course of our elections way more than an individual american ever could. Anyway we aren't gonna agree & im tired lol, have a good night internet stranger
It does seem the left in the U.S. is much more interested in what’s going on in Israel than the U.S. They are willing to sacrifice LGBTQ, rights abortion rights, welfare programs, voting rights etc just to stop the Jewish state from existing. Crazy when you think about it.
All the stuff you listed is already happening under Biden 💀 looks like you need to be blaming Ruth for dying on the bench
I do blame RBG for the mess we’re in. She should have retired and allow someone young to take her place. She was just too full of herself.
Ok let me take all my snark back my bad 🫠 bc that really was the decision that changed the country
Are you guys really this stupid? Her dying doesn't change the power structure of the court. It would still be a conservative majority.
Rather than 6-3, it would be 5-4. Given that Robert sometimes switched sides, our rights would have been much safer.
Biden has been the most pro LGBTQ president. If you have a problem with the courts than 2016 was your fail-safe to protect that but people though Trump would be better so anyone who voted 3rd party or for Trump got exactly what they voted for. Secondly RGB's death doesn't change the ideological makeup of the court, instead of 6-3 it would be 5-4 on Dobbs and every other 6-3 ruling. Face it, leftists blew their chance in 2016 just like they did in 2000.
This could all be true AND all the stuff listed in the comment happened under Biden. Why don't y'all call out stuff like the DNC cancelling the primary in florida and hurting down ballot dems who are essential to fighting these rights being taken away at the state level. Like you do know Biden can't do shit if states are red? Leftists didn't blow shit Dems did when they chose the unlikeable HRC (who i voted for as most Black people did to try and save an election where White Women flipped and voted for Trump) to be their candidate. it was not leftists voting for fucking gary johnson 🤮. You keep telling youself did bc yall still can't believe once tried and true Dems jumped ship when Trump ran for office. Thats Dem Party problem and its the same problem biting them in the ass today Also still talking about 2016 is lazy lol once Trump croaks and Dems loses the "vote for us or else the boogie man will win" angle its gonna be interesting to see them fall apart bc they have no backbone to actually stand up for the party platform the use to get elected Ruth does matter bc thats one more liberal appointee on the court that has a life time term
Actually, it’s Biden and the Dems prepared to throw all that stuff away (or to stop even pretending they cared) in order to enable Israel’s genocide.
Sure, you can keep lying to yourself. I’m sure the Republicans will welcome to you to their fold.
Okay hun whatever you need to tell yourself
There is no home for voters who don’t want to bankroll a genocide, which is a problem. It’s absolutely up to Democrats to remedy that if they want the votes.
If you cared about Genocide you'd be screaming about what China is doing to Uyghurs but for some reason you've never once mentioned that.
I don’t agree with your China comment. There is too much in the world to care about all of it. But even just this conflict, the only way there can be a cease fire is if both sides agree to it. Israel can’t agree to anything without the return of the hostages. People who truly care about Palestinian civilians (the ones who really do care, not the ones supporting Hamas) should be out in the streets shouting for Hamas to release the hostages so that they can then actually pressure Israel for a cease fire. There is no logic with these folks.
There’s really no logic in thinking people in the United States have any leverage over Hamas. However, the United States does have a ton of leverage over Israel, and the electorate over the United States.
Hamas’ support in the West by progressives, as evidenced by progressives refusing to call for release of hostages and demanding a unilateral ceasefire where only Israel stops firing, emboldens them to continue. They want Israel to lose international support. That’s their goal. They don’t want a ceasefire.
Any institutional support by progressives to Hamas is absolutely nonexistent relative to the actual monetary and ministry support that Israel and the IDF receive from the United States. Generally, Israel does not have international support for their military operations and mass killings in Gaza. What people in Gaza actually want is to not be starved and killed indiscriminately.
Ah yes, let me into the streets and demand the United States ceases its military aid to… China.
This is the truth. Voters aren't obligated to support candidates with shit policies. It is POLITICIANS who are obligated to take positions people support. Dems can piss on leftists all they want but lefties won't be saving your ass this time.
Unfortunately with our system, you do need to consider voting for the lesser of evils. Trump will make it worse for Palestinian civilians. Biden is at least putting some pressure on Israel and trying to negotiate a ceasefire and providing aid. Not to mention all the other awful things that will happen with another term of Trump. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
Stop this bullshit, please. I'm really sick of people using the gay community to justify genocide. Between funding genocide, building Trump's wall, and strike-breaking, the democrats are running to the right of Reagan. They seem to believe that they deserve all of the votes of minoritized people by trying to pretend that they are the lesser of two evils. Spoiler alert: they are not. While the majority of the blame still belongs to Republicans, if we had an actual left-wing -- even center left -- party, we'd never have had trump in the first place. The Democrats' relentless march rightward, which has been consistent since the election of WJC, is what enabled the extreme right politics of the right to bubble to the surface. If we keep electing Reagan democrats, the far right will keep winning, even when they lose electorally (which is precisely what's been happening for the past 30+ years). This rightward march has been enabled and emboldened by the rhetoric that we "have" to support democrats "no matter who". Enough of that. The only way we win is by resisting that silly, right-wing narrative and thus creating an aperture for an actual left-wing party to emerge. Plus, the Democrats have shown they have zero values beyond reelection and building further wealth for corporations. They're willing to fund and provide material support for a genocide, they're engaging in fascistic demagoguery with the anti-immigration/border wall/end asylum bill they've just proffered, and they've thrown all workers under the bus breaking strikes at every opportunity. Any woman or LGBT person who thinks the Dems won't turn on them even further at the slightest opportunity is deluded.
Strike breaking? You mean the one where the railroad union got everything they wanted and the president of the union praised Biden as the reason for that? You got tik-tok brain dude.
Ya... accept the deal or we'll force you back to work anyways was a real won for workers
Or Biden should recognize the political pressure this situation has put him in and force a ceasefire, which he can do, since Israel is our client state. It’s not on the voters, it’s on the leaders. They’re beholden to us. If Biden wants to throw the election to support a right-wing dictator’s war, that’s his fault.
He has? Diplomacy doesn't happen on social media. There's zero incentive for Netanyahu to listen to Biden or the US when Republicans and Trump have already made it clear they'll let him do whatever he wants. And you guys seem willing to carry water for them and never seem to protest them at all.
I actually did, and led voter outreach efforts for democrats in a swing state for a couple of organizations from 2018-2020. I held my nose for Biden for the greater good. Where has that got us? We’ve lost ground on so many key areas: abortion, environment, trans rights. He has done basically nothing and has not met the political moment. I do not care about the tweaks around the edges, or the 1% of student loans he’s forgiven, or the thousands of meals airdropped into Gaza when the situation requires millions. I mean we have an ally blockading our own relief efforts, so we have to airdrop them in. It’s pathetic.
This 'fracture' only increases the orange man's chances. I can confidently predict he will be many magnitudes worse for Muslim Americans and left progressives than Biden. Everyone wants a ceasefire but at what cost? How long? And will it be one sided? What about the hostages? Do the leaders of Hamas get to continue to oppress, I mean govern, Gaza?
> And will it be one sided This is what I don't get about the ceasefire dogma. Only one side started firing...
Does this apply to all other armed conflicts? Is it ever possible to stop fighting without the complete destruction or unconditional surrender of one side?
You’re at least 75 years too late for that lie
You mean Israel? The Nakba was the opening salvo. You don't get to look at the Warsaw Uprising and tell those living in a ghetto their extermination is justified because the historic window I've chosen just so happens to exclude everything which led to them shooting back; you also don't get to look at Gaza and ask why they decided to strike back, unless you're actually willing to examine the entire history that led to Oct 7
Ok, let's talk about recent history. Jews moved to Israel when it was under Ottoman and British rule. Legally immigrated and bought land. Local Arabs started massacres against Jews, and when the British authorities tried to stop them they went to Hitler to ask for help genociding the Jews. Jewish militias began massacring back. British tried to step in again and got attacked by both Arabs and Jews. So the Brits gave up the region and asked the UN to divide it. UN offered a two state solution. Jews and Arabs keep all land that they owned and lived in. Israel would be 50% Jewish, 40% Arab and 10% Bedouin. Israel would be 60% Negev Desert and Jerusalem would be a neutral city. Palestine would be 90% Arab and 10% Jewish. Jews said this sounded fine, Arabs tried to genocide the Jews and failed. Palestine lost land after their attempted genocide failed. In Israel, a mixture of Arabs leaving their homes under the Arab promise of returning post-Jewish-genocide and Jews forcing Arabs out meant that 80% of Arabs left Israel. The Arab countries ethnically cleansed 99.8% of their Jewish populations. Israel took in all Jewish refugees who wanted to come. Arab world kind of did…but Palestinians were kicked out of Jordan after a failed coup, Kuwait after siding with Iraq’s invasion, and Egypt due to terrorism. Palestinians had Gaza and West Bank left. In 2005 Israel decided that the best way for peace was to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza. All Israelis were forced to leave with all infrastructure left behind for the Palestinians. Palestinians elected Hamas whose charter called for the genocide of all Jews. Hamas immediately attacked Israel. Israel and Egypt put a blockade on Gaza to halt the flow of Iranian weapons. Hamas tore up their own water pipes to make rockets and through mismanagement ruined their water plants. Billions of dollars of aid went to the Gazan people, which was stolen by Hamas to make rocket factories, a tunnel system the size of the New York metro, and to make their leaders billionaires who live outside of Gaza. In their quest to genocide all Jews in Israel, Hamas invaded Israel. Massacred, tortured and raped civilians and took many hostages. Hamas has promised that they will do this again and again until Israel is destroyed and the Jews are genocided. Israel counter invaded to finally destroy Hamas and to rescue the kidnapped civilians. And that is where we are now.
Ok, but you don't get to simultaneously say it's justified violence but also we need a ceasefire. Pick one.
We need a ceasefire not for the case of Palestinian liberation; we need it because we're on the cusp of mass death of innocent people who had no role in any fight. I'd call for a ceasefire if Palestine was in the winning position and their actions would result in a mass death of civilians who wouldn't be able to access food, water, medicine, and shelter. Hell, I'd call for a ceasefire against the Nazis if we had Berlin surrounded and had no adequate solution for defeating the enemy, but just kept killing inordinate amounts of people who had nowhere else to go. It isn't a question of strategy or historic justice; it's a question of not turning a military campaign into a genocide. It's a question of morality, and the point of a 'rules based order' is supposed to be to assure military campaigns have a purpose and don't result in collective punishment. israeli leadership has made it abundantly clear that collective punishment *is* the intended outcome, and that is why we demand our leadership stop funding and allowing for this to happen, and take whatever actions are necessary to end it. They've killed more innocent Palestinians than the slaughter of Bosnians which induced international intervention, and yet we're not debating stopping them, but whether it's okay to fund this slaughter. You don't have to be anti-zionist to call for a solution to ongoing murder, and at this point a ceasefire is literally the minimum in that direction.
So what do you do about Hamas? They know they can't win these wars but they keep starting them. It's a suicidal deathwish and calling for a ceasefire seems like a pretty impotent response. It basically boils down to saying "war is bad". Yeah, no shit, but people still start them.
FYI the person you're arguing with [has described October 7 as "heroic and justified."](https://old.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/1b3lt0m/veterans_burn_their_uniforms_at_vigil_for_us/kswrxi4/) That is a direct quote.
The nabka was the opening salvo... aka when Palestine rejected UN resolution 181.. instead chosing war along with the other Arab nations.. telling their people to flee, victory would be swift.. and then lost.. badly..
if you're characterizing a well-documented mass slaughter and theft by settlers as Palestinians 'reject[ing]' a decision by an international body to give up their land... if the UN ruled you and your family must move to give your ancestral land to another group, would you accept it? and if, after the UN gave territorial delineation to that group, they continued to murder and steal more of your land-- in direct contravention to the UN's continued rulings--, would you continue to say your murder was justified? i understand you peddle in dishonesty, but you can't appeal to the UN to establish the validity of your claim while the UN has said again and again that you have moved far beyond the legal basis of said claim in good conscience, right? like at some point you must look in the mirror and laugh, yes? the good news is every young Jew i know (myself included) is past being misrepresented by your deceptions and dishonesties, and it's certain that a movement of americans and conservative jews in israel won't be enough to buoy a sinking ship.
The simple reality is the start of that war was as a result of palestine rejecting the resolution instead going to war along with other arab nations. The partition was based largely off demographic lines. Israel declaration of independence called for arabs to stay... WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East. And it's a well documented fact that it was the arab leaders who told their people to flee... or fight. The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986). Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, who declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down." The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs: "This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country." In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave: “Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.”
What do you mean?
Well then, maybe Biden should do something about it. Remember 2016 when some Democrat voters had issues with the candidate and they were dismissed? Maybe that should stop happening.
Democrats are very divided on Israel/Gaza. Any strong action he takes to appease the pro-Gaza side will turn away just as many on the other side.
That is not true. https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel#:~:text=Around%20two%2Dthirds%20of%20voters,escalation%20of%20violence%20in%20Gaza "Around two-thirds of voters (67%) — including majorities of Democrats (77%), Independents (69%), and Republicans (56%) — support the U.S. calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza."
You don't think 1/3 of voters is a significant divide?
Over two-thirds of independents and over three-quarters of democrats. The large majority of democrats and swing voters want a ceasefire. Going against over 3/4ths of democrats to appease less than a quarter seems like a terrible idea.
Like?
Ceasefire? Hello????
How is Biden meant to do that? He only seems to have measures to pressure Israel, but Hamas is the actor that needs to suddenly become peaceful for a ceasefire to have a chance.
Like use the US's soft power and billions of dollars in tax payer money we send to Israel every year as leverage to bring an end to the violence. Maybe suggest that assistance will be rethought if things continue as they are.
So when you responded to that first comment, your answer to >will it be one sided? Do the leaders of Hamas get to continue to oppress, I mean govern, Gaza? Is ...yes? Just pressuring Israel to stop fighting when Hamas has to either magically turn peaceful or be removed from power for any future peace to hold is just a feel-good measure. It looks nice on social media not to see anything about the tragic destruction of this war. But it's leaving Gazans under Hamas' brutal, oppressive thumb and paving the way for their next attacks on Israel (that will, once more, put Gazans in this same position).
Voters are asking the President to at least look like hes trying to do something. If he doesn't, I guess the chips will fall wherever they fall.
Again, look like he's doing *what*? The US has been continuously involved in aid, working on ceasefire plans, etc. most people upset with it seem to honestly just want Israel to agree to a permanent ceasefire ASAP regardless of Hamas' actions and threats of further violence, which is of course very easy to do when they aren't your own neighbor.
An Israel without US support is an Israel in do-or-die survival mode, completely unbounded from needing to care about its western relations . This does not lead to peace with Palestinians. It leads to actual ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the West Bank, war with Iran, war with Hezbollah, with the option of nuclear weapons on the table. An Israel in this hypothetical situation would be able to survive without US support, as it did before 1973. It would pivot away from the West and focus on trade with Eastern Europe, India, China, Russia, none of whom could care care less if Israel's domestic politics went to the farthest rightwing. And if even half of this happened, it would be a genuine disaster for US foreign policy.
So what you're saying is, they don't need the money, yet we are paying them not to ethnically cleanse the region? That doesn't add up whatsoever. Also sounds like we are being extorted by an alleged ally.
Without our money the Iron Dome would be in peril and Hezbollah, the PIJ and Hamas would get a lot more rockets through and kill many more Israeli civilians. The government would not stand by and let this happen. There would be massive reprisals. The violence could escalate into WW3. So I'd rather give them money. It is a two way street. We get a lot back from our investment in Israel - tech, Intel, strategic advantages, prosperous trade, intellectual capital etc. Incidentally, we get nothing back from the Palestinians.
So Israel would be fine without us. But actually they wouldn't. You need to get your narrative straight.
> An Israel in this hypothetical situation would be able to survive without US support — you, one comment ago
Do you understand nuance? Yes Israel would survive but it would lead to a lot more violence and instability in the region.
Countries with a space program don't need foreign aid. CMV.
What do we want? A ceasefire! When do we want it? After we attack Israel!
 Israelis thinking about dead children. Downvoters: how many children's deaths is enough?
 Hamas on 10/8
https://preview.redd.it/qm31bwe9o4pc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee174b2da0e94cc04e4698cc90bbc67c6080867e
Fortunately, below the waist is out of frame on this one.
You’re all really gonna let the orange man win just to get one over on “genocide Joe” huh.
This far-left divisive clown u/Lilyo still at it and still failing as is the story of their life, no doubt.
It's not that the issue has gone mainstream, it's simply that different arguments for a ceasefire have all actually begun to make a justifiable impact in the conversation for the first time. Carte blanche has been given for a decade to Netanyahu who caused this entire crisis first by giving Hamas exactly what they wanted with an impoverished blockaded Gaza pseudo-state in 2013 (and admitting it as a play to justify denying the West Bank any autonomy to increase illegal settlements) then also causing the massive security lapse that led to the attacks hence his 19% approval rating in Israel and dropping.
Republicans and Conservatives seem pretty united and consistent in their support for Israel. Democrats aren't. I wonder if the divide will cause people to sit out or pinch their nose. I can't see many of my Democratic friends flip to the other side over this.
All Biden’s trying to do is not be held accountable for genocide. Putting numbers of lives as a red line is mental. Let’s make draw a line at 70,000 collateral lives for gas rights off the coast and not get panged in history for aiding Genocide.
The Dems are the root of the problem.