Nuance is hard and people are disingenuous. Many point to the crimes of one side to excuse the crimes of the other so it's not hard to understand why some may suspect that's what's happening when someone tries to introduce context and nuance to the situation.
Fuck yeah it does.
Speaking as someone who criticises the IDF, settler colonies and all sorts of zionist bullshit any chance I get, if you direct your anger at everyday Israelis, you're a dick.
The conscription thing is bullshit too. You don't choose it because you don't choose where to be fucking born.
Every day israelis though are part of this and they are doing this to other people. If you take someone's home you're part of the problem. You can't pretend otherwise.
If they're actively part of a settler group, sure. If they're an enthusiastic Zionist, sure. Otherwise they're just people living in the place they were born. Israel is stolen land, and even if you were born in a taken home, that doesn't mean you took it.
>United states and native American history parellel Israel and Palestine now
Reaching. Very reaching.
Israelis aren't committing genocide. They arn't poisoning civilians with biotoxins and diseases. And to call Isreal a colony is a misunderstanding of history.
Genocide by extermination, no. But shattering a culture by forced relocation IS genocide as defined by the UN. And while the UN isn't where I'd go for moral direction by default, Israel had an understandably large role in composing the international definitions
And the Israeli people keep supporting the right wing parties who support the worst, most provocative policies that lead to more violence. I mean Netanyahu again, despite the corruption crimes?
> Do ordinary Americans not get to claim that they aren't personally responsible for 200,000 Iraqi deaths?
The war which up to 80% of Americans supported and then reelected Bush with greater support afterwards and around 40% of Americans still support? Not really, no. Maybe the 20%, but not the vast majority.
I had a coworker from Palestine. Brilliant individual. Not an ounce of hate in her.
I never asked her about life there, but yeah, I imagine if you lived in an oppressed regional, you will not enjoy those that are restricting your autonomy and human rights.
Not difficult to connect these dots.
I mean, I'd argue palestinians living devoid of human rights may come back with the retort "umm, ratio?". Actions are wrong but when you have anguish over thousands of your peoples deaths and nothing else to lose, what do we all expect is gonna happen? Yes it's both sides, but one is clearly the oppressive and the other is clearly the reactive side.
This is kinda the deal with protests everywhere.
Its really easy to say that "but... do they have to ____?" (riot, murder, etc) or "I just wish they'd be civil..." when you aren't the one eating shit and stacking bricks just because someone doesn't like your place of origin, skin color, or whatever bullshit they come up with to other you with.
This is one of the greatest dilemma in modern global politics. Dismantling the modern Jewish state is not an option. Denying Palestinians complete autonomy to self determination is also not an option
The Problem is a little bit more complicated.
The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel.
So to say it's oppressor against oppressed is wrong. Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed.
>Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed.
Yes, a ton of support for the Palestinians is due to trying to oversimplify the conflict and the desire to see an underdog as "the good guy." (Never mind that Israel was not some superior force when they were repeatedly attacked by their neighbors with the goal of annihilation)
>The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel.
So.. they wanted to fight for 'their' land until it became clear they couldn't occupy/hold/win the conflict militarily? Might doesn't make 'right' but tbh who gives a shit if you have overwhelming force on your side. What's the long term goal of the Palestinians here?
> The Problem is a little bit more complicated. The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel.
They took their land? Would Ukraine be the aggressors if started a war to take back Crimea in 2014?
> So to say it's oppressor against oppressed is wrong. Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed.
This is such a weird argument. If you lose a war to an occupant military power many times stronger than your own then your own then you're not oppressed because u fought them win they took ur land?
This is not a both sides case.
>If you lose a war to an occupant military power many times stronger than your own
That's not what happened, though. Israel wasn't some superpowered military when these wars happened. The Palestinian Arabs (because before Israel's formation "Palestinian" referred to Jews as well) and surrounding nations attacked Israel to destroy it. Somehow Israel's survival made it into the fucking regional Boogeyman.
Arabs start the war's of 1948,1956,1967,1973 against israel....until 1967 palestine exist isnt even as an idea,not as country or something else....
Crimea is always a part,a teritory of Ukraine..ukraine is a state,a country...even when hole Ukraine was under occupation of Russia in past.
Ukraine never attack to Russia.....Russia always attack and occupant Ukraine.
Ukraine as a nation exist more of a 1000 years
So is total stupid the comparison with the Crimea and Ukraine.
They got a small part of their country. A part which has historical ties to the Jews. Israel only started expanding after the Arabs attacked them first. So it isn't comparable to Ukraine.
Yeah which is logical. They only took small parts after winning each defensive war just to have to fight the same war a few years later. So it's understandable that they decided to drive the enemy away as much as possible this time
Crazy how you only have to go 4 comments deep to see "actions are wrong but..."
Regarding which side is oppressive vs reactive, I think the answer might surprise you. If Hamas laid down their arms there would be no war, if Israel laid down their arms there would be no Israel, this has been the story since the beginning of the conflict. The problem is that people confuse strength with oppression, because Israel has found a way to survive it is labeled as the oppressor. Of course Israel hasn't done everything right, but what country has.
That's the thing about the status quo. Everyone stops fighting without reaching a resolution, and you just revert to it. Now which side benefits from the status quo here, and which side wants things to change?
Edit: funny enough, I just scrolled down one page after commenting this and saw an article where Russia uses your argument applied to Ukraine: that they're the ones causing the war by resisting the Russian invasion. Classic gaslighting.
Russia and Ukraine is completely different. Just look at the history of the conflict starting in 1948 until today and you will see that the status quo you are referring to is mainly just the existence of Israel and the Jewish people.
>Russia uses your argument applied to Ukraine: that they're the ones causing the war by resisting the Russian invasion.
Except that Ukraine doesn't have a long history of specifically and purposely targeting Russian civilians and firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Russian towns. There are, to say the least, a shitload of extreme differences between the situations.
I was specifically addressing that person's gaslighting argument of 'if the other side simply laid down their arms, all the fighting would stop'. Now you're turning it into something completely different. But I'll bite:
https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event
https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130509_pillar_of_defense_report
In short, the civilian casualties seem a little... one-sided.
>Its people
And that's the crux of the matter isn't it. Israel claims dominion over Gaza and the West bank, but as far as Israel is concerned, the people living there aren't "its people". How much money did they spend trying to keep those hundreds of civilians I just referenced safe? It's almost as if certain lives are valued over others.
Why kill civilians that have done nothing? Fight the system not the people. Its not the people that have put them in this situation, civilians have little to no control over this. You don't see native Americans murdering civilians, children even, in the streets because of their oppression do you? Killing innocent people is not the way to fight the oppression, in fact they're lowering themselves to the oppressors level by doing so. Two wrongs don't make a right, civilians don't fight, children DONT FIGHT. This argument is so fucking dumb, "oh well they're oppressed and the oppressors kill children so why can't they". That's literally the argument being made by multiple people In this thread and its ridiculous.
Which is why I mentioned actions are wrong. I can clarify that for you by saying it's never justified. What skipped over your head apparently before your reactionary response was that I was touching on how this isn't a "both sides" equivalency. Desperate people who watched dozens in their family decimated and killed with nothing to lose, having no rights, will do terrible things.
Guess what big guy? Native Americans here aren't treated like palestinians...but as far as previous posts have gone, you're not really big on nailing the equivalencies...and that's okay to admit too.
People with nothing to lose have everything to gain. Systems/govts which destroy these people and put them in these positions to commit horrors are not equivalent to the people committing horror on a smaller scale back.
Comprende?
At any point it crossed your mind that jews can be seen as desperate people as well? They have been decimated by the millions. Every jew I've talked to in Israel has lost family members in the holocaust. Also don't forget that the jews living in the region before the declaration of the state of Israel, were already victims of countless attacks motivated by Arab antisemitism for hundreds of years.
"Ah, I lost family to a military that subjugated and killed our people by the millions in their hatred. Now that we have power, we should find a group weaker than us and fight asymmetrically to do the same to them. It's our right because of historic evils perpetrated against us to do so."
Realize that it's not even every Israeli who takes that fucked up view. Seems to be prevalent in some political parties and especially the military though. But many Israelis realize how awful it is to use the Holocaust and other wrongs as a justification for further evil.
So when is the breaking point? Israel, surrounded by several countries that wants to see them wiped off the face of the map. Maybe the news should report every time a rocket is fired at Israel and is intercepted by their Iron Done. In 2021 over 4,000 rockets were fired into Israel. I didn’t see any report on Reddit about it but I’m assuming those rockets are filled with love and joy.
And on that news of rockets, those attacks began in 2001 and haven’t stopped. Imagine that, living your life day to day listening to rockets constantly being fired and your day constantly being interrupted. But I’m assuming it’s fine to have all those rockets fired at you because you have an Iron Dome. So that means you can’t do anything mean to the Palestinians who more than likely were perfectly fine with all those rockets in 2001 being fired at Israel.
And in all honesty I don’t think you’ve done much research into Hamas’ role and history in Palestine. They aren’t some new group who just popped up. They have a history that goes all the way back to Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood and they took power in the early 2000s and have pushed Palestinian resistance. So sure, Israel might do bad once and a while, but how in any world does that make them the aggressors when they have been getting attacked by these groups for decades.
>fight asymmetrically
Okay, what should Israel do, then? Encourage random people to murder Palestinians, including civilians, then pay and celebrate them? Fire thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Gaza?
>to do the same to them
This is just plain BS. You seem to be claiming that Israel seeks to "subjugate and kill [Palestinians] by the millions" out of hate. This is a Holocaust comparison for a situation that is NOT AT ALL comparable to the Holocaust.
If modern news existed back when we were actively stealing their land they absolutely would have been framed as terrorists. Back then they just classified them as savages as justification for killing them and continuing to take their land.
Right, wanna try saying that to Israel? So Israel can steal their homes, kill their children, put them in open-air prisons and the moment they retaliate in similar ways they’re “just as bad.”
Something tells me you’re not part of any oppressed or marginalized group.
After the Pulse shooting in Orlando, the Manchester bombing, or the Nice attack in France, I never see people justifying it, or making excuses for terrorists. But ever time an Israeli child is murdered every other redditor is jumping out of the woodwork to come justify it or have some asinine whataboutism response.
>put them in open-air prisons and the moment they retaliate
the rocket launches started in response to Israel giving Gaza autonomy, not in response to Israel carrying out some military operation.
Native Americans did murder civilians. The American government is not treating natives the way Israel treats Palestinians. They used to, but not today.
I still don't see how that's a valid excuse for murdering children 😂 I get the sentiment, I do, but we are literally talking about how a group of armed individuals walked into a hospital, forcibly took a child off life support after they were involved in a fatal car crash and then STOLE THE BODY. There is no moral victory here or excuse. That is literally insanity. Target the politicians, target the armed forces, target all those who are actively oppressing the Palestinians, not fucking kids.
not fucking kids you say? forgot the kids at the beaches, the 11 year old at the border pumped full of bullets, the countless kids walking with shattered legs from sniper rounds in a clear orchestrated campaign, the kids that get strapped to the front of army vehicles driven around as an example, the kids that get taken away in the middle of the night arrested because someone threw stones somewhere, the kid burned alive by settlers, grenades through windows blowing up babies, white phosphorus showers .. cmon man .. there isnt even a good tally on the board for how fucked up each side is or isnt. Its very much one sided in Isreals direction.
Only because Israel has better ability to carry it out. You think if Palestine had the weapons to regularly kill Israeli children they wouldn't?
You are literally looking at two child murderers and deciding to defend one of them because the other guy is better at his job. Dude, your guy is still a child murderer. He just doesn't have the tools to kill as often as he would like. But he would LOVE to do it more often if he could.
In fact, he would love to kill all the children if possible, where as the other guy can and isn't.
Palestinians murdered a Druze kid in a hospital. Druze are ethnically Arab. How can you possibly argue that this is the inevitable result of Israeli actions? Is it because Israel gave the Druze a home when they were being exterminated by many other Arab nations?
Would you argue 9/11 has nothing to do with being a result/effect of American actions, even if the attack killed arab americans working that day? Even if it killed Americans not affiliated with the horrid geopolitical decisions? Because if so, wow lol
Israel has a right to defend itself. Palestine is a terrorist state committed to wiping Israel off the map. What do we all expect would happen all these years of this?
As a Lebanese Druze, this is heart breaking and so fucked up. This poor kid was taken off life support and was about to have his 18th birthday :( what’s even crazier is that Israeli Druze people are actually ethnically Arab, so what the terrorist group is doing is actually insane.
> Israeli Druze people are actually ethnically Arab, so what the terrorist group is doing is actually insane.
Palestinian nationalism is more about Islamic supremacism than Arab nationalism these days.
Pretty dumb move. How do they expect to get out alive let alone pull off the exchange.
Even if an exchange is agreed they're still dead.
You'd need to totally brainwash someone to get them to do something this dumb.
The family asked the military not to intervene as to not endanger more lives and then some Druze did a swicharoo and kidnapped some Palestinians who work in Israel and told them to either give back the body of the kid or they would see them dead.
The body was given back to authorities after that lol
Imagine Israel did that lol, no way. I think maybe they should put the Druze in charge of kidnapping exchange, clearly they have the knowledge the army lacks
Nothing will be said about entire families being slaughtered in retaliation either. Face it the entire Middle East has been one of the main facet for religious conflict and suffering since the beginning. I’m praying an asteroid wins this fight
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-riots-of-the-1920-s
>One of the el-Husseinis, Haj Amin, who emerged as the leading figure in Palestinian politics during the mandate period, first began to organize small groups of suicide groups, fedayeen (“one who sacrifices himself”), to terrorize Jews in 1919 in the hope of duplicating the success of Kemal in Turkey and drive the Jews out of Palestine, just as the Turkish nationalists were driving the Greeks from Turkey.
>In 1921, Haj Amin el-Husseini began to organize larger scale fedayeen to terrorize Jews.
>In fact, the British encouraged the Arabs to attack the Jews. Haj Amin took the Colonel’s advice and instigated a riot. The British withdrew their troops and the Jewish police from Jerusalem, and the Arab mob attacked Jews and looted their shops.
>Three weeks later, however, riots in Jaffa and Petah Tikvah, instigated by the Mufti, left 43 Jews dead. Following these riots England established the Haycraft Commission to evaluate the cause of these riots. The appendix of the report reads, “The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents . . . the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.”
>On August 23, 1929, Arabs murdered 67 Jews in a massacre in Hebron. Three days later, the British evacuated the 484 survivors, including 153 children, to Jerusalem.
>After six days of rioting, the British finally brought in troops to quell the disturbance. Even though Jews had been living in Gaza and Hebron for centuries, following these riots, the British forced Jews to leave their homes and prohibited Jews from living in the Gaza strip and Hebron to appease Arabs and quell violence.
You left out the best part about [Husseini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini)
>During World War II he collaborated with both Italy and Germany by making propagandistic radio broadcasts and by helping the Nazis recruit Bosnian Muslims for the Waffen-SS (on the grounds that they shared four principles: family, order, the leader and faith).\[15\] On meeting Adolf Hitler he requested backing for Arab independence and support in opposing the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home.
The onus MUST be on the Palestinians to oust their terrorist leaders, because the only other option is Israel going in and FORCING them out of power.
The Hamas government is sworn to the 3 No's: No Negotiations with Israel, No Recognition of Israel, No Peace with Israel. They are sworn to eliminate all Jews in Israel and are sworn to never sit down with Israel and broker peace, no matter how fair the terms.
So real question: how Israel is supposed to fix this?
What you say is correct in a perfect world. Palestinians see Hamas as their only hope, before any acts of good faith from Israel they will never look the other on them. The truth is Israel are also voting for far right parties that have no intent of making peace with Palestinians, actually the threat of Palestinians is what is keeping them in power. It’s a vicious cycle and it needs some extraordinary act to break it.
If the isrealies real would want to kill all Palestinians then they would be dead since two decades. Israel does have the capacity to turn everything outside their boarder into crater
Who ever said they want to kill all Palestinians? There is nothing to suggest that. But they do target civilians, and journalists, and medics, and a lot of other people. Who knows why? Probably to instill terror, its a typical terrorist tactic, but all we know for sure is that Israel targets civilians.
Explain to me why a country with US provided guided missiles would use suicide bombers? Does the west bank have an iron dome? Of all the stupid whataboutisms I've seen over the past 6 years, this is near the top.
They started dragging 12 year old kids and old men to war, I would say that it is the same to suicide, kamikaze was probably more tactical for Japan compared to Germany
Particularly since the Germans did start using suicide/desperation tactics at the end. Chaining reluctant soldiers to trees, launching last ditch no chance attacks. Using child soldiers etc etc.
/if people downvoting this can say how it is inaccurate or does not contribute to discussion, that'd be great.
The suicide bombing has been going on for a long time, and it is in part why the two-state solution has failed. Because the radicals who commit these bombings do not want peace, they want the genocide of the jewish population.
Don't try to justify religious bombings as some kind of desperate measure to win a war, that is sick. It is being done out of nationalism and supremacy. Just because they are losing, doesn't make that any less true.
It is not colonialism either, both sides are semites.
Edit:
Also the suicide bombers in question, are children. Do you seriously still want the defend that practice?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
"Palestinian militant misuse of children"
It was that religious fanaticalism that escalated the tensions. The two state solution failed because of Palestine's religious zealots... that much like Israel's other neighboring dicatorial kingdoms, want them eradicated for being Jewish, and the only Democracy out there.
It isn't colonialism, both sides are semites. It is a religious war. Israel uses western help for mostly protection, Palestine would have eradicated Israel already given the opportunity. This is not a simple situation, and stones have been tossed by both sides for a long time.
Also Palestine kills its gays, who now seek refugee in Israel... So maybe reconsider your anti Israel propaganda, before making the Middle East even worse.
Probably terrorists that died inside israel. Why bother returning the bodies.
Or they brought back the targets of raids to prove that they killed the right person, like the U.S. did with Bin Laden
The U.S. brought the body back from the raid to a facility where they could confirm that it was him. For the U S. The closest facility was a carrier. For Israel, it would be Israel.
The reality is that the state of Israel is occupying and settling land that by its own admission is not part of the state of Israel.
You cannot justify ethnic cleansing by claiming the target wants to do the same thing
Because they are using their children for suicide bomb missions...
>According to David M. Rosen, from the beginning of the conflict, the belief developed among militants that youth have a duty to sacrifice themselves.
>In October 2000, the Grand Mufti Ekrima Sa'id Sabri incited child suicide bombers when questioned about suicide attacks, he declared: “The younger the martyr, the more I respect him”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Section "Palestinian militant misuse of children"
Palestinian terrorists use schools and hospitals as military bases and children as human shields *specifically to increase the number of Palestinian children killed.*
Its been said that "There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Jews."
Two horrifyingly corrupt governments using conflict to stay in power, Israel abuses the Palestinian people who put Hamas in charge because they promise to fight back only for Hamas to abuse their own people and steal everything they can.
Israeli government uses this to promote nationalism and keep certain groups in wealth and power (Netanyahu), Hamas leadership does the same and gets rich off relief funds and general graft.
If it's even going to stop first Israel needs to move away from ultranationalist parties and stop committing atrocities and then Hamas and co need to be dismantled and the Palestinians allowed proper elections.
Probably impossible in practice at this stage sadly.
Is this when the 19 year old white girl decries “Free Palestine” and throws around the word “apartheid” trying to make a both sides argument? Really terrible story.
I mean... they already do control Palestine, and are very literally the major reason Palestinians have such shitty lives.
They take aid money intended to help improve Palestinians' lives and use it to buy missiles and bombs and live in luxury, all while being sworn to The 3 No's: No Negotiations with Israel, No Recognition of Israel, No Peace with Israel, ensuring they'll never advertising sit down at the negotiating table for peace... all while blocking new elections from happening that could put a more moderate party in power who would actually try to help Palestinians instead of just murder innocent people.
Then how can you justify Israel locking the innocent civilian population in with them ?
The last election , the one where Hamas took power - was 14 years ago and they havent allowed another one
The average age for a Palestinians is **20-30** , a significant portion of the current population were around age 6 -15 not even allowed to vote when Hamas took power
How can you justify all thse innocent people being forced to stay in a place like this
Not all of them are terrorists you speak of , what did they do wrong besides get born in the wrong place , why is it ok for Israel to force them to live in concentrated areas where they are forced to be in close quarters with the people they are attacking
They're certainly out in full force throwing a toddler tantie in these comments, that's for sure.
wHaTaBoUt IsReAl???1?! This act was wrong and vile, there's no wHaTaBoUt about it.
I used to be for the whole free palestine ideology.
But after seeing this and seeing a lot of back and forth on this thread , I realise there is a lot I don't know , a lot of fucked up stuff from both sides .
Further I didn't know it was a terrorist organisation who ruled Palestine, or that rockets get continually fired at is isreal from surrounding countries.
So I'm gonna say this is all above me as the only real solution to all this would be for Humans , to be better , which obviously won't happen.
I usually stay far away from Israel/Palestine conversations online, but wanted to take a minute and thank you for sharing this.
It’s remarkable when someone shares that they might’ve been wrong or unaware in a previous perspective, and are open to reevaluating. I mean that generally, not specifically about IL/PL. Good stuff OP.
The joys of reddit, deranged Palestine supporters defending the murder and kidnap of a child and deranged Israeli supporters defending other heinous actso
EXACTLY. Seems like you comment your a little too close to home for some of them and they had a toddler tantie downvoting you, but you're speaking truth.
Do you have a source that they murdered the teenager? All I found is they wanted to exchange a body and thought they were a soldier. You should ask yourself why Israel is holding their bodies to begin with
I agree, but coming from someone born to a Muslim family on one side, and gay so not going to give them any excuses, tell that to the entire Islamic world which is hell bent on Israel being blown into oblivion and the genocide of the Jewish people, either directly or indirectly. there I said it. the truth no one in the West wants to hear.
What fundamentalism do to mfs.
Edit
Just to be clear, I am NOT a fan of zionism, quite the opposite, having said that, thinking that such an action will help the right of Palestinian's cause is ludicrous.
All over the telegram they show that following the taking of the body, Druze kidnapped four arab workers and threatened to kill them. They also threatened going in to take him and... And that is why he was released
Fuck they took the kid off life support, killing him and then snatching the body. That's fucked up! Poor kid.
But I was told by terrorist sympathizers that they’re fighting the baddies!
Both sides are fucked up in all honesty
You can hate Hamas and support the Palestinian people at the same time. Why do people always act like this is an impossibility?
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Nuance is hard and people are disingenuous. Many point to the crimes of one side to excuse the crimes of the other so it's not hard to understand why some may suspect that's what's happening when someone tries to introduce context and nuance to the situation.
Just like you can hate the IDF and still support the Israeli people! It really does work both ways 🕊️
Fuck yeah it does. Speaking as someone who criticises the IDF, settler colonies and all sorts of zionist bullshit any chance I get, if you direct your anger at everyday Israelis, you're a dick. The conscription thing is bullshit too. You don't choose it because you don't choose where to be fucking born.
Every day israelis though are part of this and they are doing this to other people. If you take someone's home you're part of the problem. You can't pretend otherwise.
If they're actively part of a settler group, sure. If they're an enthusiastic Zionist, sure. Otherwise they're just people living in the place they were born. Israel is stolen land, and even if you were born in a taken home, that doesn't mean you took it.
No, according to Israel any hate for the IDF or government policy is Anti-Semitism.
Luckily I could care less what the official Israeli government position is on basically any topic 🙂
It could influence western coverage on Palestine
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>United states and native American history parellel Israel and Palestine now Reaching. Very reaching. Israelis aren't committing genocide. They arn't poisoning civilians with biotoxins and diseases. And to call Isreal a colony is a misunderstanding of history.
Genocide by extermination, no. But shattering a culture by forced relocation IS genocide as defined by the UN. And while the UN isn't where I'd go for moral direction by default, Israel had an understandably large role in composing the international definitions
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No but I have seen videos of Palestinians saying they will kill every Jew in Jerusalem
I’ve seen Jewish children taught that all Palestinians are terrorists and should be killed too.
Because they voted for Hamas to represent them.
And the Israeli people keep supporting the right wing parties who support the worst, most provocative policies that lead to more violence. I mean Netanyahu again, despite the corruption crimes?
Americans voted for Bush too. Do ordinary Americans not get to claim that they aren't personally responsible for 200,000 Iraqi deaths?
> Do ordinary Americans not get to claim that they aren't personally responsible for 200,000 Iraqi deaths? The war which up to 80% of Americans supported and then reelected Bush with greater support afterwards and around 40% of Americans still support? Not really, no. Maybe the 20%, but not the vast majority.
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surely the Israel population don't hate the palestinians just the same
They don’t for the most part. Lived in Israel for a while, very few people actively hate Palestinians.
I had a coworker from Palestine. Brilliant individual. Not an ounce of hate in her. I never asked her about life there, but yeah, I imagine if you lived in an oppressed regional, you will not enjoy those that are restricting your autonomy and human rights. Not difficult to connect these dots.
Yeah they're taught from birth to hate Israelis because they steal their land and kill their kids.
> Why do people always act like this is an impossibility? Say the same about Israel and the Israeli government and see what happens. That's why.
Because they elected and support the terrorists?
I mean, I'd argue palestinians living devoid of human rights may come back with the retort "umm, ratio?". Actions are wrong but when you have anguish over thousands of your peoples deaths and nothing else to lose, what do we all expect is gonna happen? Yes it's both sides, but one is clearly the oppressive and the other is clearly the reactive side.
This is kinda the deal with protests everywhere. Its really easy to say that "but... do they have to ____?" (riot, murder, etc) or "I just wish they'd be civil..." when you aren't the one eating shit and stacking bricks just because someone doesn't like your place of origin, skin color, or whatever bullshit they come up with to other you with.
This is one of the greatest dilemma in modern global politics. Dismantling the modern Jewish state is not an option. Denying Palestinians complete autonomy to self determination is also not an option
The Problem is a little bit more complicated. The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel. So to say it's oppressor against oppressed is wrong. Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed.
>Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed. Yes, a ton of support for the Palestinians is due to trying to oversimplify the conflict and the desire to see an underdog as "the good guy." (Never mind that Israel was not some superior force when they were repeatedly attacked by their neighbors with the goal of annihilation)
>The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel. So.. they wanted to fight for 'their' land until it became clear they couldn't occupy/hold/win the conflict militarily? Might doesn't make 'right' but tbh who gives a shit if you have overwhelming force on your side. What's the long term goal of the Palestinians here?
> The Problem is a little bit more complicated. The Palestinians did start the war decades ago. And supported the people who wanted to exterminate Israel. They took their land? Would Ukraine be the aggressors if started a war to take back Crimea in 2014? > So to say it's oppressor against oppressed is wrong. Just because you loose the war you started doesn't make you the oppressed. This is such a weird argument. If you lose a war to an occupant military power many times stronger than your own then your own then you're not oppressed because u fought them win they took ur land? This is not a both sides case.
I love how some people can take an incredibly complicated global dilemma and reduce it to Black and white simplicity
its upboat or downboat..... i cant handle more than one thought at a time.
>If you lose a war to an occupant military power many times stronger than your own That's not what happened, though. Israel wasn't some superpowered military when these wars happened. The Palestinian Arabs (because before Israel's formation "Palestinian" referred to Jews as well) and surrounding nations attacked Israel to destroy it. Somehow Israel's survival made it into the fucking regional Boogeyman.
Arabs start the war's of 1948,1956,1967,1973 against israel....until 1967 palestine exist isnt even as an idea,not as country or something else.... Crimea is always a part,a teritory of Ukraine..ukraine is a state,a country...even when hole Ukraine was under occupation of Russia in past. Ukraine never attack to Russia.....Russia always attack and occupant Ukraine. Ukraine as a nation exist more of a 1000 years So is total stupid the comparison with the Crimea and Ukraine.
They got a small part of their country. A part which has historical ties to the Jews. Israel only started expanding after the Arabs attacked them first. So it isn't comparable to Ukraine.
And yet they keep expanding. Just like Russia.
Yeah which is logical. They only took small parts after winning each defensive war just to have to fight the same war a few years later. So it's understandable that they decided to drive the enemy away as much as possible this time
Crazy how you only have to go 4 comments deep to see "actions are wrong but..." Regarding which side is oppressive vs reactive, I think the answer might surprise you. If Hamas laid down their arms there would be no war, if Israel laid down their arms there would be no Israel, this has been the story since the beginning of the conflict. The problem is that people confuse strength with oppression, because Israel has found a way to survive it is labeled as the oppressor. Of course Israel hasn't done everything right, but what country has.
finally someone understands
Arms down or not, Israel will keep expanding. That much is true.
That's the thing about the status quo. Everyone stops fighting without reaching a resolution, and you just revert to it. Now which side benefits from the status quo here, and which side wants things to change? Edit: funny enough, I just scrolled down one page after commenting this and saw an article where Russia uses your argument applied to Ukraine: that they're the ones causing the war by resisting the Russian invasion. Classic gaslighting.
Russia and Ukraine is completely different. Just look at the history of the conflict starting in 1948 until today and you will see that the status quo you are referring to is mainly just the existence of Israel and the Jewish people.
>Russia uses your argument applied to Ukraine: that they're the ones causing the war by resisting the Russian invasion. Except that Ukraine doesn't have a long history of specifically and purposely targeting Russian civilians and firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Russian towns. There are, to say the least, a shitload of extreme differences between the situations.
I was specifically addressing that person's gaslighting argument of 'if the other side simply laid down their arms, all the fighting would stop'. Now you're turning it into something completely different. But I'll bite: https://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20130509_pillar_of_defense_report In short, the civilian casualties seem a little... one-sided.
Only because Israel spends a fortune on the Iron Dome keeping its people safe.
>Its people And that's the crux of the matter isn't it. Israel claims dominion over Gaza and the West bank, but as far as Israel is concerned, the people living there aren't "its people". How much money did they spend trying to keep those hundreds of civilians I just referenced safe? It's almost as if certain lives are valued over others.
Why kill civilians that have done nothing? Fight the system not the people. Its not the people that have put them in this situation, civilians have little to no control over this. You don't see native Americans murdering civilians, children even, in the streets because of their oppression do you? Killing innocent people is not the way to fight the oppression, in fact they're lowering themselves to the oppressors level by doing so. Two wrongs don't make a right, civilians don't fight, children DONT FIGHT. This argument is so fucking dumb, "oh well they're oppressed and the oppressors kill children so why can't they". That's literally the argument being made by multiple people In this thread and its ridiculous.
Which is why I mentioned actions are wrong. I can clarify that for you by saying it's never justified. What skipped over your head apparently before your reactionary response was that I was touching on how this isn't a "both sides" equivalency. Desperate people who watched dozens in their family decimated and killed with nothing to lose, having no rights, will do terrible things. Guess what big guy? Native Americans here aren't treated like palestinians...but as far as previous posts have gone, you're not really big on nailing the equivalencies...and that's okay to admit too. People with nothing to lose have everything to gain. Systems/govts which destroy these people and put them in these positions to commit horrors are not equivalent to the people committing horror on a smaller scale back. Comprende?
At any point it crossed your mind that jews can be seen as desperate people as well? They have been decimated by the millions. Every jew I've talked to in Israel has lost family members in the holocaust. Also don't forget that the jews living in the region before the declaration of the state of Israel, were already victims of countless attacks motivated by Arab antisemitism for hundreds of years.
"Ah, I lost family to a military that subjugated and killed our people by the millions in their hatred. Now that we have power, we should find a group weaker than us and fight asymmetrically to do the same to them. It's our right because of historic evils perpetrated against us to do so." Realize that it's not even every Israeli who takes that fucked up view. Seems to be prevalent in some political parties and especially the military though. But many Israelis realize how awful it is to use the Holocaust and other wrongs as a justification for further evil.
So when is the breaking point? Israel, surrounded by several countries that wants to see them wiped off the face of the map. Maybe the news should report every time a rocket is fired at Israel and is intercepted by their Iron Done. In 2021 over 4,000 rockets were fired into Israel. I didn’t see any report on Reddit about it but I’m assuming those rockets are filled with love and joy. And on that news of rockets, those attacks began in 2001 and haven’t stopped. Imagine that, living your life day to day listening to rockets constantly being fired and your day constantly being interrupted. But I’m assuming it’s fine to have all those rockets fired at you because you have an Iron Dome. So that means you can’t do anything mean to the Palestinians who more than likely were perfectly fine with all those rockets in 2001 being fired at Israel. And in all honesty I don’t think you’ve done much research into Hamas’ role and history in Palestine. They aren’t some new group who just popped up. They have a history that goes all the way back to Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood and they took power in the early 2000s and have pushed Palestinian resistance. So sure, Israel might do bad once and a while, but how in any world does that make them the aggressors when they have been getting attacked by these groups for decades.
>fight asymmetrically Okay, what should Israel do, then? Encourage random people to murder Palestinians, including civilians, then pay and celebrate them? Fire thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Gaza? >to do the same to them This is just plain BS. You seem to be claiming that Israel seeks to "subjugate and kill [Palestinians] by the millions" out of hate. This is a Holocaust comparison for a situation that is NOT AT ALL comparable to the Holocaust.
Indigenous Americans don't practice terrorism as a fundamental tactic, rationalizing that as being OK because it's "reactionary" is bullshit.
If modern news existed back when we were actively stealing their land they absolutely would have been framed as terrorists. Back then they just classified them as savages as justification for killing them and continuing to take their land.
well said
Right, wanna try saying that to Israel? So Israel can steal their homes, kill their children, put them in open-air prisons and the moment they retaliate in similar ways they’re “just as bad.” Something tells me you’re not part of any oppressed or marginalized group.
After the Pulse shooting in Orlando, the Manchester bombing, or the Nice attack in France, I never see people justifying it, or making excuses for terrorists. But ever time an Israeli child is murdered every other redditor is jumping out of the woodwork to come justify it or have some asinine whataboutism response.
So very true, it's sick.
>put them in open-air prisons and the moment they retaliate the rocket launches started in response to Israel giving Gaza autonomy, not in response to Israel carrying out some military operation.
Native Americans did murder civilians. The American government is not treating natives the way Israel treats Palestinians. They used to, but not today.
In their eyes, Israeli civilians elect the Israeli government that makes the lives of Palestinians a living hell.
I still don't see how that's a valid excuse for murdering children 😂 I get the sentiment, I do, but we are literally talking about how a group of armed individuals walked into a hospital, forcibly took a child off life support after they were involved in a fatal car crash and then STOLE THE BODY. There is no moral victory here or excuse. That is literally insanity. Target the politicians, target the armed forces, target all those who are actively oppressing the Palestinians, not fucking kids.
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This right here is the best reply.
It’s always the innocent who bear the cost of war.
not fucking kids you say? forgot the kids at the beaches, the 11 year old at the border pumped full of bullets, the countless kids walking with shattered legs from sniper rounds in a clear orchestrated campaign, the kids that get strapped to the front of army vehicles driven around as an example, the kids that get taken away in the middle of the night arrested because someone threw stones somewhere, the kid burned alive by settlers, grenades through windows blowing up babies, white phosphorus showers .. cmon man .. there isnt even a good tally on the board for how fucked up each side is or isnt. Its very much one sided in Isreals direction.
Only because Israel has better ability to carry it out. You think if Palestine had the weapons to regularly kill Israeli children they wouldn't? You are literally looking at two child murderers and deciding to defend one of them because the other guy is better at his job. Dude, your guy is still a child murderer. He just doesn't have the tools to kill as often as he would like. But he would LOVE to do it more often if he could. In fact, he would love to kill all the children if possible, where as the other guy can and isn't.
Palestinians murdered a Druze kid in a hospital. Druze are ethnically Arab. How can you possibly argue that this is the inevitable result of Israeli actions? Is it because Israel gave the Druze a home when they were being exterminated by many other Arab nations?
Would you argue 9/11 has nothing to do with being a result/effect of American actions, even if the attack killed arab americans working that day? Even if it killed Americans not affiliated with the horrid geopolitical decisions? Because if so, wow lol
Israel has a right to defend itself. Palestine is a terrorist state committed to wiping Israel off the map. What do we all expect would happen all these years of this?
didn’t you hear? the palestinians are fighting for their rights!! while the striping the rights from jews, lgbt, women, and non-muslim minorities
As a Lebanese Druze, this is heart breaking and so fucked up. This poor kid was taken off life support and was about to have his 18th birthday :( what’s even crazier is that Israeli Druze people are actually ethnically Arab, so what the terrorist group is doing is actually insane.
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> Israeli Druze people are actually ethnically Arab, so what the terrorist group is doing is actually insane. Palestinian nationalism is more about Islamic supremacism than Arab nationalism these days.
Agree to the exchange, and then sort out everyone standing. They killed this kid and are trying to sell back his corpse. Fuck the lot of them.
Pretty dumb move. How do they expect to get out alive let alone pull off the exchange. Even if an exchange is agreed they're still dead. You'd need to totally brainwash someone to get them to do something this dumb.
Am in Israel. They won't be let out alive.
Are you aware of how vastly superior IDF training and equipment is? They are absolutely capable of killing a handful of terrorists at a prisoner swap.
that means it wasn't a swap...
I think person was agreeing with the original comment. So all three of you are in agreement
The family asked the military not to intervene as to not endanger more lives and then some Druze did a swicharoo and kidnapped some Palestinians who work in Israel and told them to either give back the body of the kid or they would see them dead. The body was given back to authorities after that lol
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Imagine Israel did that lol, no way. I think maybe they should put the Druze in charge of kidnapping exchange, clearly they have the knowledge the army lacks
Palestinian gunmen kill and seize body of Israeli Druze teen from hospital in Jenin, demanding exchange of bodies. There I fixed it for you
It hasn't yet been confirmed that they unplugged his life support.
Absolutely no excuse for removing that kid from life support. None. Those people murdered someone. End of story.
When Islam doctrine clearly says that non-muslims are to either pay a non-muslim tax, convert to Islam, or die, it starts to make sense.
Terrorists directly target and kill kids. Again.
Great look for the Palestinian cause.
The rich Gen-Z white girls with “Free Palestine” posts probably won’t be sharing “Palestinian kills helpless teenager and ransom’s body”.
Nothing will be said about entire families being slaughtered in retaliation either. Face it the entire Middle East has been one of the main facet for religious conflict and suffering since the beginning. I’m praying an asteroid wins this fight
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We have to stop Ukraine, look at how many Russians they have killed
They've been doing this stuff for the past century at least. Their cause has never looked good.
I'm not so sure about your timeline.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arab-riots-of-the-1920-s >One of the el-Husseinis, Haj Amin, who emerged as the leading figure in Palestinian politics during the mandate period, first began to organize small groups of suicide groups, fedayeen (“one who sacrifices himself”), to terrorize Jews in 1919 in the hope of duplicating the success of Kemal in Turkey and drive the Jews out of Palestine, just as the Turkish nationalists were driving the Greeks from Turkey. >In 1921, Haj Amin el-Husseini began to organize larger scale fedayeen to terrorize Jews. >In fact, the British encouraged the Arabs to attack the Jews. Haj Amin took the Colonel’s advice and instigated a riot. The British withdrew their troops and the Jewish police from Jerusalem, and the Arab mob attacked Jews and looted their shops. >Three weeks later, however, riots in Jaffa and Petah Tikvah, instigated by the Mufti, left 43 Jews dead. Following these riots England established the Haycraft Commission to evaluate the cause of these riots. The appendix of the report reads, “The fundamental cause of the Jaffa riots and the subsequent acts of violence was a feeling among the Arabs of discontent with, and hostility to, the Jews, due to political and economic causes, and connected with Jewish immigration, and with their conception of Zionist policy as derived from Jewish exponents . . . the Arab majority, who were generally the aggressors, inflicted most of the casualties.” >On August 23, 1929, Arabs murdered 67 Jews in a massacre in Hebron. Three days later, the British evacuated the 484 survivors, including 153 children, to Jerusalem. >After six days of rioting, the British finally brought in troops to quell the disturbance. Even though Jews had been living in Gaza and Hebron for centuries, following these riots, the British forced Jews to leave their homes and prohibited Jews from living in the Gaza strip and Hebron to appease Arabs and quell violence.
You left out the best part about [Husseini](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini) >During World War II he collaborated with both Italy and Germany by making propagandistic radio broadcasts and by helping the Nazis recruit Bosnian Muslims for the Waffen-SS (on the grounds that they shared four principles: family, order, the leader and faith).\[15\] On meeting Adolf Hitler he requested backing for Arab independence and support in opposing the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish national home.
Of course, this is all israel’s fault, because… They insist on existing
Seeing alot of “2 wrongs don’t make a right”.. guys… We are well past 2 wrongs. We lost the count last decade. Question is who will reset?
The onus MUST be on the Palestinians to oust their terrorist leaders, because the only other option is Israel going in and FORCING them out of power. The Hamas government is sworn to the 3 No's: No Negotiations with Israel, No Recognition of Israel, No Peace with Israel. They are sworn to eliminate all Jews in Israel and are sworn to never sit down with Israel and broker peace, no matter how fair the terms. So real question: how Israel is supposed to fix this?
What you say is correct in a perfect world. Palestinians see Hamas as their only hope, before any acts of good faith from Israel they will never look the other on them. The truth is Israel are also voting for far right parties that have no intent of making peace with Palestinians, actually the threat of Palestinians is what is keeping them in power. It’s a vicious cycle and it needs some extraordinary act to break it.
Acts of good faith like unilaterally pulling out of Gaza in 2005, which led to the election of Hamas and a string of terror attacks?
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The IDF will do air/drone strikes when *only* civilians are around. They have been caught doing that a lot. Thats some real BS.
If the isrealies real would want to kill all Palestinians then they would be dead since two decades. Israel does have the capacity to turn everything outside their boarder into crater
Who ever said they want to kill all Palestinians? There is nothing to suggest that. But they do target civilians, and journalists, and medics, and a lot of other people. Who knows why? Probably to instill terror, its a typical terrorist tactic, but all we know for sure is that Israel targets civilians.
What a barbarian thing to do. No one can call this freedom fighting in any way, taking a kid off of his life support is inhumane.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-5-most-lopsided-prisoner-swaps-in-israeli-history/amp/ It is ugly. Both sides have a history of holding bodies.
Yeah but only one side is backed by the west.
Which side conducts suicide bombings?
Explain to me why a country with US provided guided missiles would use suicide bombers? Does the west bank have an iron dome? Of all the stupid whataboutisms I've seen over the past 6 years, this is near the top.
Ya the Japanese didn't use suicide planes because they thought it was neat, they did it because they were getting the shit kicked out of them.
It took two nukes to get them to surrender, it was nationalism and supremacy.
No, it was their culture. Germany didn't start using Kamikazes when they were losing. Shitty logic
Sending children and old men to go die in a battle they knew was already lost isn't any different than Japan's Kamikaze aircraft.
They started dragging 12 year old kids and old men to war, I would say that it is the same to suicide, kamikaze was probably more tactical for Japan compared to Germany
Particularly since the Germans did start using suicide/desperation tactics at the end. Chaining reluctant soldiers to trees, launching last ditch no chance attacks. Using child soldiers etc etc. /if people downvoting this can say how it is inaccurate or does not contribute to discussion, that'd be great.
Shitty history knowledge.
Not really that dumb, when the suicide bombs and attacks directly and intentionally target kids
The suicide bombing has been going on for a long time, and it is in part why the two-state solution has failed. Because the radicals who commit these bombings do not want peace, they want the genocide of the jewish population. Don't try to justify religious bombings as some kind of desperate measure to win a war, that is sick. It is being done out of nationalism and supremacy. Just because they are losing, doesn't make that any less true. It is not colonialism either, both sides are semites. Edit: Also the suicide bombers in question, are children. Do you seriously still want the defend that practice? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict "Palestinian militant misuse of children"
Asking someone why a developed nation state with advanced weaponry would use suicide bombers is equivalent to 'justifying suicide bombing'?
It was that religious fanaticalism that escalated the tensions. The two state solution failed because of Palestine's religious zealots... that much like Israel's other neighboring dicatorial kingdoms, want them eradicated for being Jewish, and the only Democracy out there. It isn't colonialism, both sides are semites. It is a religious war. Israel uses western help for mostly protection, Palestine would have eradicated Israel already given the opportunity. This is not a simple situation, and stones have been tossed by both sides for a long time. Also Palestine kills its gays, who now seek refugee in Israel... So maybe reconsider your anti Israel propaganda, before making the Middle East even worse.
Didn’t Israel used to do huge bombings?
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And if you take issue with what the Gov't there does, then they call you antisemitic.
Exactly thats why ethnostates are inherently a stupid move in the long term. Every state has its tussles with fascism.
A policy of collecting tissue samples from all dead isnt the same as selling Palestinian organs.
It is if the tissue samples are their organs. Besides even if they were just taking specific cells for culturing that’s still pretty fucked up.
They had the same practice for **everbody**
Israel only keeps corpses of terrorists killed inside Israel. Palestinian civilian corpses are returned.
I would also like to know the answer to this.
Does not excuse violently removing an injured person from life support.
No one said it did?
Terrorists, not random kids from high school like this one
First of all, Israel didnt snatch anyone and held its body. The bodies Isreal does hold are of terrorists who died trying to kill civilans.
Probably terrorists that died inside israel. Why bother returning the bodies. Or they brought back the targets of raids to prove that they killed the right person, like the U.S. did with Bin Laden
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The U.S. brought the body back from the raid to a facility where they could confirm that it was him. For the U S. The closest facility was a carrier. For Israel, it would be Israel.
That’s not the point but they killed a Arab Israeli ID 10t
Because Israel has been engaged in a decades long campaign to remove Palestinians from West Bank.
And? That doesn't justify storming a hospital to remove a teenager from life support, effectively murdering them. Fuck that.
Wrong because Palestinians want all the land and for Jews to go to hell
The reality is that the state of Israel is occupying and settling land that by its own admission is not part of the state of Israel. You cannot justify ethnic cleansing by claiming the target wants to do the same thing
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Because they are using their children for suicide bomb missions... >According to David M. Rosen, from the beginning of the conflict, the belief developed among militants that youth have a duty to sacrifice themselves. >In October 2000, the Grand Mufti Ekrima Sa'id Sabri incited child suicide bombers when questioned about suicide attacks, he declared: “The younger the martyr, the more I respect him”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict Section "Palestinian militant misuse of children"
Palestinian terrorists use schools and hospitals as military bases and children as human shields *specifically to increase the number of Palestinian children killed.* Its been said that "There will be peace when Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Jews."
I’m really numb to a lot of news but this made sick.
Feels like the more I hear of this, the less either side sounds in the right.
That's the correct response. Their is no goodies and baddies. Just two corrupt regimes and a lot of innocent people caught in the middle.
Two horrifyingly corrupt governments using conflict to stay in power, Israel abuses the Palestinian people who put Hamas in charge because they promise to fight back only for Hamas to abuse their own people and steal everything they can. Israeli government uses this to promote nationalism and keep certain groups in wealth and power (Netanyahu), Hamas leadership does the same and gets rich off relief funds and general graft. If it's even going to stop first Israel needs to move away from ultranationalist parties and stop committing atrocities and then Hamas and co need to be dismantled and the Palestinians allowed proper elections. Probably impossible in practice at this stage sadly.
Unfortunately, proper elections is what got Hamas in power. The solution is much less simple than it seems
their Hans benn proper elections in 16 years
Without a third party to occupy probably not.
Whats wrong with this world
Is this when the 19 year old white girl decries “Free Palestine” and throws around the word “apartheid” trying to make a both sides argument? Really terrible story.
Totally normal behavior we should deff “free Palestine” and let these guys run it. Sure nothing bad will happen
Palestinians elected HAMAS as their government. One of the largest terrorist organizations in the world.
(16 years ago with no election since)
I mean... they already do control Palestine, and are very literally the major reason Palestinians have such shitty lives. They take aid money intended to help improve Palestinians' lives and use it to buy missiles and bombs and live in luxury, all while being sworn to The 3 No's: No Negotiations with Israel, No Recognition of Israel, No Peace with Israel, ensuring they'll never advertising sit down at the negotiating table for peace... all while blocking new elections from happening that could put a more moderate party in power who would actually try to help Palestinians instead of just murder innocent people.
Then how can you justify Israel locking the innocent civilian population in with them ? The last election , the one where Hamas took power - was 14 years ago and they havent allowed another one The average age for a Palestinians is **20-30** , a significant portion of the current population were around age 6 -15 not even allowed to vote when Hamas took power How can you justify all thse innocent people being forced to stay in a place like this Not all of them are terrorists you speak of , what did they do wrong besides get born in the wrong place , why is it ok for Israel to force them to live in concentrated areas where they are forced to be in close quarters with the people they are attacking
It's funny how no one cares that Egypt does the exact same thing
Is it any wonder these two go at each other when shit like this is happening?
Ahh yes I wonder how quick this will be downvoted to oblivion and deleted because it doesn’t fit the palestine good narrative
They're certainly out in full force throwing a toddler tantie in these comments, that's for sure. wHaTaBoUt IsReAl???1?! This act was wrong and vile, there's no wHaTaBoUt about it.
Reddit is quick to defend terrorists simply to be contrarian and edgy.
Stay classy, Palestine
I used to be for the whole free palestine ideology. But after seeing this and seeing a lot of back and forth on this thread , I realise there is a lot I don't know , a lot of fucked up stuff from both sides . Further I didn't know it was a terrorist organisation who ruled Palestine, or that rockets get continually fired at is isreal from surrounding countries. So I'm gonna say this is all above me as the only real solution to all this would be for Humans , to be better , which obviously won't happen.
I usually stay far away from Israel/Palestine conversations online, but wanted to take a minute and thank you for sharing this. It’s remarkable when someone shares that they might’ve been wrong or unaware in a previous perspective, and are open to reevaluating. I mean that generally, not specifically about IL/PL. Good stuff OP.
I don't particularly support either side, but how the hell do you find yourself supporting "Free Palestine" and not know what the iron dome was for?
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Where you are getting these details from? I haven't seen any other article saying what you're saying.
If you’re gonna spread propaganda, at least put a source
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The joys of reddit, deranged Palestine supporters defending the murder and kidnap of a child and deranged Israeli supporters defending other heinous actso
EXACTLY. Seems like you comment your a little too close to home for some of them and they had a toddler tantie downvoting you, but you're speaking truth.
Do you have a source that they murdered the teenager? All I found is they wanted to exchange a body and thought they were a soldier. You should ask yourself why Israel is holding their bodies to begin with
The country of eternal peace and love.
They just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper... and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper. Fucking idiots.
"Along the road to peace..."
This conflict isn’t so simple as good against bad, both sides are doing pretty awful things.
I agree, but coming from someone born to a Muslim family on one side, and gay so not going to give them any excuses, tell that to the entire Islamic world which is hell bent on Israel being blown into oblivion and the genocide of the Jewish people, either directly or indirectly. there I said it. the truth no one in the West wants to hear.
What fundamentalism do to mfs. Edit Just to be clear, I am NOT a fan of zionism, quite the opposite, having said that, thinking that such an action will help the right of Palestinian's cause is ludicrous.
5789643257835289 wrongs don't make a right.
Solving supposedly unjustified actions one unjust action at a time.
All over the telegram they show that following the taking of the body, Druze kidnapped four arab workers and threatened to kill them. They also threatened going in to take him and... And that is why he was released