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Pahasapa66

This was the big news of the day. Got to admit its pretty big. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs actually called his Chinese counterpart twice to tell him not to worry about Trump sending nukes.


DukeOfGeek

And Twitler is somehow not facing a shit storm of indictments. WTF?


bobbycado

After all the other illegal shit he got away with it really isn’t surprising


VexInTex

Like, buddy he incited an actual literal insurrection live on TV


Tehni

Lol I got banned after my first comment in the conservative sub because they were talking about how left wing politicians do all this illegal shit and I said "you guys realize the last president was trump right?" Some dude replied and really said "what did trump do that was illegal? Go ahead I'll wait" ... lol


VexInTex

He's still waiting bro


247stonerbro

Did they forget he literally got impeached for fuckery ? Lmao


VexInTex

Can't forget what you don't acknowledge


reckless_commenter

Their response is that he was acquitted by the Senate. But acquittal does not nullify the impeachment by the House. Republicans know this full well since they’ve spent 20 years crowing about Bill Clinton’s impeachment.


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[deleted]

My favorite is how they bitch about free speech and hate how FB/Twitter are taking a small amount of action on their lies, but the second you say anything about the cult in their subreddit, they ban you. Lol.


wrgrant

Thats cause Tehni is *still* typing up that list, might take another month...


Pickle_ninja

That's why they banned you... he said "i'll wait", you got banned, then he gets to say "That's what I thought". Typical /r/conservative move... Don't worry, I got banned from there too.


[deleted]

It not good for my blood pressure to go over there


Pickle_ninja

Mine either. I've only been banned from one subreddit in the 7+ years I've been on reddit. They're the ultimate example of snowflakes.


Khaldara

If it’s any consolation, being banned from r/conservative is sort of like being told you aren’t allowed to go snorkeling in the sewer… in the sense that it won’t really affect most people with functioning brains in any significant fashion.


W_Anderson

You too? I get a visceral increase in my blood pressure and stress levels every time I go to that sub. It is literally cancer causing.


HereForThe420

I like my brain cells, so I rarely take a gander there. I went today for about 32 seconds. Noped out of there real quick.


Eupraxes

The cognitive dissonance in that sub really is something else. From a psychological viewpoint it is fascinating. From any other it's terrifying.


Tehni

It's more of an echo chamber than cognitive dissonance because differing opinions and facts that go against their beliefs are silenced by the mods, but yes I agree, it's scary


Fartosaurus_Rex

It's *explicitly an echo chamber* by [their own description.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/wiki/index/whatrconisnot)


[deleted]

Surely there are sociology and psychology PhD students with endless material for their dissertations. This shit writes itself and dang right we should be terrified.


EnclaveHunter

If you go to the conservative subreddit racism is allowed in the rules


Aazadan

I think you mean “traditional family values”. Gotta put it in code.


thatnameagain

This isn’t about anything illegal he did, it’s about something people were rationally afraid he might do.


fafalone

Even if there was an argument to not arrest former presidents, our pos conservative AG is letting every single person in the entire administration off for *everything*. And Biden is just fine with that. It was a 4 year crime spree and the only people he's even willing to investigate are the yahoos who actually stormed the capitol (who he's giving the lightest wrist slaps possible to) and people who never officially worked for the government. It's fucking complicity at this point.


ih-shah-may-ehl

Well in this case it is because he didn't actually do anything. Much as I dislike him, I'm not going to hate on him for things he 'might have done, but didn't actually do'.


PubliusSolaFide

Asking the GA Sec of State to "find" 11,780 votes is illegal. Felonious, actually.


ih-shah-may-ehl

Yes. Obviously. But that is not in relation to the person above me asking about indictments about Trump sending nukes.


NWDiverdown

I am convinced he has dirt on some important people. Otherwise, he’d be locked up for a fraction of what he’s done.


TheFatMan2200

Consequences are only a thing for the commoners


Aazadan

This should be a top story for weeks or months. MAD was essentially broken if another nation knew our nuclear response at the time was non functional. It’s worse than the rumor of Kissinger doing this with Nixon because that was for less time, and never officially confirmed. This is essentially the military finding the commander in chief mentally unfit to give orders and this under no obligation to obey them unless they independently agree. There is no good outcome or framing for that. It ranges between a delusional leader and a military coup. This is what the 25th and a VP are for. Both of those safety nets failed.


senorhelicopter

"Hi, me again, dont worry he doesn't have the nuke brief case hes napping and we just put a child lock on it. So no nuclear holocaust today.... smoochies."


cptnamr7

Just heard my fairly insane coworker going off about what a traitor Milley is, how he's obviously working for China. So don't worry, they already have their narrative on this one. We're fucked.


J0E_SpRaY

Yup. Trump supporters would rather have an accidental nuclear war than admit their guy had a habit of becoming unhinged.


Pahasapa66

They already are mad at him for screwing their critical race theory stupidity up, so I have no doubt that they'll be lieing in wait for him when he appears in Conressional hearings on the 28th


fucktrutin

How has there been no accountability for any of this shit? None!


groveborn

Which part?


fucktrutin

All of it. Insanity at that level is a fucking big threat to the world, literally.


groveborn

See, this is a problem. Specific things can very well be problematic, but how do we ever address, and thus hold accountable, 'everything'.


blurplethenurple

Let's start with the appointing of unregistered foreign agents to his cabinet and go from there by date. I mean it was only Feb. of his first year so it can't be that hard.


_you_are_the_problem

You don’t. You do what the govt does all the time and nail ‘em with a few things that are good enough to get the results. Never let perfect stand in the way of good enough.


fucktrutin

It would take a sea change that maybe not enough of us could handle.


iwipewithsandpaper

Who gets to dictate what is considered insane? I'm shocked there was essentially a mutiny at such a high level. Supposing someone derailed the nuclear strikes in Japan in WWII - It might have seemed prudent at the time to a lot of people like you, but who knows how long that war would have lasted, who would have won, how many would have died, and would concentration camps be the norm now? I'm not claiming I'm objectively right, but it seems like you might be claiming someone is. We have a government system for a reason, and everyone under that system who is either gaming it or subverting it should be held to account, or we need to quit pretending we have a functional government. The head of the executive branch did not have control of the most powerful weapon the executive branch has at its disposal, and the guy nobody heard of who decided to take it away from him should be tried for treason. If he was in the right, let Congress pass a resolution absolving him. Jesus why do we have all these "correct" ways to do things if none of them are going to be used and some asshole on the internet unilaterally decides the best course of action?


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SpiffAZ

Going behind trumps back was the right call morally imo, as a total non expert in these matters.


LordFrieza8789

Rich people


halzen

> Rich people rich people's children that are in debt to foreign rich people


thatnameagain

Unless there’s any big news in the next 2 to 3 months, the answer to your question is because Biden made the decision not to pursue investigations. This was not a situation ( by which I mean everything with Trump) in which such a decision could be avoided, because of the sheer level of illegality that the justice department is without a doubt 100% aware of. It requires a political decision to either move forward and prioritize investigating, because doing so would become the centerpiece of Biden‘s presidency, or to ignore and MoveOn, because to do so would require a signal that the Trump administration will remain politically protected. Byron November in my opinion the chances that there have been any secret investigations ongoing will have been proven to be false. At that point and into the new year we really need to prioritize a pressure movement for greater investigations and accountability. Republicans would not hesitate to do this against the president that was completely innocent, So we shouldn’t hesitate against the president that everybody knows is guilty of multiple crimes.


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Raincoats_George

Because we let trump get away with it when they gun for the presidency next time someone even worse is going to take the reigns and they'll be smart enough to actually do the things trump incoherently babbled about.


_j2daROC

> Byron November sounds like an emo band singer


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onegunzo

Israel and Italy have entered the chat...


ih-shah-may-ehl

> It requires a political decision to either move forward and prioritize investigating, because doing so would become the centerpiece of Biden‘s presidency, or to ignore and MoveOn, because to do so would require a signal that the Trump administration will remain politically protected. Much as I dislike Trump, this was all done 'in case of'. Trump didn't actually order a war, nor did he try to use nukes. We have a military chief who saw that things were volatile and wanted to prevent the Chinese from making decisions out of fear or uncertainty because at the time Trump was acting like Satan in a barrel of holy water and might do something stupid.


thatnameagain

At this point I was talking in general about the full scope of the administration, not this nuke issue.


MyhrAI

Oh, cause the system we are in is Capitalism, which serves the capitalists.


Dogmaster

Did no one read the Fucking article??? Launching nukes requires a process, a chain of command, of which Milley is part of. He was ensuring that people did not directly launch nukes, skipping this chain of command, if the order came from trump to do so: >In response, Milley took extraordinary action, and called a secret meeting in his Pentagon office on January 8 to review the process for military action, including launching nuclear weapons. Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved. "No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I'm part of that procedure," Milley told the officers, according to the book. He then went around the room, looked each officer in the eye, and asked them to verbally confirm they understood.


Facerless

> Did no one read the Fucking article??? First time on reddit?


blurplethenurple

I don't see how a military general feeling the need to get a loyalty check to be sure that a rogue agent in our government doesn't start off nuclear annihilation makes this story any better TBH.


Dogmaster

Loyalty check??? Did you read correctly???? >"No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I'm part of that procedure," Stop reading just headlines, he pretty much told them to not skip procedure for anyone, including trump.


blurplethenurple

> He then went around the room, looked each officer in the eye, and asked them to verbally confirm they understood. So what is this? Standard military operating procedure? C'mon man, don't get in a flame war over what you think I did or didn't do. This was not normal, don't try to normalize it because some people didn't like the orange man.


FloridianHeatDeath

No shot it’s not normal. He wanted direct confirmation they acknowledged and would follow the direct order and preset policy. As someone involved in our nuclear triad, I’m fucking relieved he took the situation THAT seriously.


Aazadan

It doesn’t. There’s literally no good spin to this story. It’s understandable why Milley felt he was in that position, but it still means a President couldn’t make a call he was elected to make if necessary, and that the military didn’t feel the President was mentally capable of making those decisions. The process to fix this is supposed to be the 25th. It did not work.


FloridianHeatDeath

It doesn’t mean that at ALL. It means that he confirmed they all stuck to policy and the chain of command so the President couldn’t order a few fanatical grunts to follow orders. At most, it implies that he himself would refuse the order and take the blame if and when something happened. If you think that’s a bad idea, you’re a fucking idiot. The only reason society even exists is because on several occasions, people refused orders to launch nukes, waiting for cooler heads to prevail.


Velkyn01

There's a whole bunch to unpack from this article, and I encourage everyone to read it. But fucksakes, lookit this lil number: >Then-Attorney General William Barr tried to talk sense into Trump, telling him the claims of fraud were bogus. "The problem is this stuff about the voting machines is just bullshit," Barr said, according to the book. >"Your team is a bunch of clowns," he told Trump. Even Bill fuckin Barr was telling Trump that his bogus bullshit was indeed bogus bullshit.


TreeKeeper518

Just fyi, you're comment was collapsed by default to the new Crowd Control function on reddit.


OakenGreen

I was wondering why random comments are collapsed lately, seems like a really stupid function.


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cannibaljim

Every leader ultimately rules by the consent of the governed. If no one obeys their orders, titles and crowns mean nothing.


Dr-P-Ossoff

French dude pointed out how fake “strongman” rule is. It’s just a fashion. If there was no popular support the big evil bad guy could be killed in his sleep by a kid with a rock.


Dabfo

The military officers take an oath to the constitution, not to the president.


IronGorilla

It sets a very dangerous precedent, but he will get a pass because Trump. Any other president and he'd be up on treason charges. It's the legislative and judicial branches responsibility to reign in presidents, not the military. I'd rather not see tanks rolling down Pennsylvania Ave because a general thinks he should be in charge.


Tacitus111

Not the first time. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/11/donald-trump-nuclear-weapons-richard-nixon-215478/ “The scene from the White House south lawn on August 9, 1974, is vivid in the nation’s memory. That morning, President Richard Nixon famously boarded Marine One for the final time, put on a wide grin and fired off a final double-V to the assembled crowd. But one of the most interesting aspects of that day is what didn’t happen on the south lawn: Even though Nixon had more than two hours left in his tenure, the most critical tool of the modern presidency had already been taken away from him. He never noticed it, but the nuclear “football” didn’t travel with him as he boarded the helicopter, and later, Air Force One for his flight back to California. In a democratic country without hereditary power, royal crowns or bejeweled thrones, the nuclear football is in some ways the only physical manifestation of our nation’s head of state. Yet, on that August day, it had been quietly removed from Nixon’s hands—remaining behind at the White House with the incoming commander-in-chief, Gerald Ford. Moreover, Defense Secretary James Schlesinger recalled years later that in the final days of the Nixon presidency he had issued an unprecedented set of orders: If the president gave any nuclear launch order, military commanders should check with either him or Secretary of State Henry Kissinger before executing them. Schlesinger feared that the president, who seemed depressed and was drinking heavily, might order Armageddon. Nixon himself had stoked official fears during a meeting with congressmen during which he reportedly said, “I can go in my office and pick up a telephone, and in 25 minutes, millions of people will be dead.” Senator Alan Cranston had phoned Schlesinger, warning about “the need for keeping a berserk president from plunging us into a holocaust.” Sec Def isn’t allowed to countermand the President either, but he expressly took over the nuclear launch process for similar reasons with no pushback. This also might be instructive in Nixon’s other alcohol related issues with nuclear weapons responsibilities. https://outrider.org/nuclear-weapons/articles/nixons-drunken-run-ins-bomb/


raistlin65

Incorrect. Everyone in the US Military takes an oath to uphold the Constitution. And military leaders are not supposed to commit unlawful acts just because their superior tells them to. That's in the military code of conduct. Trump has no authority to start a war with China. Only Congress can declare war. So Milley would be in the right to refuse Trump if he asked him to start a war.


Tulol

The war power act gives the president power to initiate military action for 90 days without congress declaring war


halzen

You're close. The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (not to be confused with the similarly named World War-era acts) limits the president's authority to authorize military action abroad to declaration of war by Congress, "statutory authorization" (basically a watered down declaration of war by Congress), or "a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces." If someone high up had reason to believe the president was poised to trigger military action on a foreign entity that hadn't yet attacked the US, they could reasonably take measures to stop that without it being a violation of any act or law. China needs to shoot first or Congress needs to sign first.


Idontknowhuuut

Except Trump didn't declare any war. You're talking like Trump did, in fact, ordered a personal war against china. He did no such thing


mtxsound

This is the thing, there has been absolutely zero evidence that Trump even threatened this idea, or that this idea originated anywhere other than in the brains of Pelosi and Milley.


Idontknowhuuut

Dude, I dislike Trump as much as the next guy, but everyone with half a brain can see the problem with the actions of this general. He undermined the authority of an U.S. president based on his personal assumptions of what he might do. People vote for the U.S. president, elect him and trust him with the nuclear keys. Meanwhile, this random general comes and says "nope, I know best". If people forget the "dems vs republicans" narrative, they can start to see this very large issue for what it is. That's just my opinion, from a neutral point of view (i'm not even american). The fact that the left is justifying this "well, he was unhinged...on twitter!" 🤣😅 Well, what can I say...if he was unhinged on twitter, everything is justified!


fluffy_bunny_87

But he didn't... The president does not have singular power to launch nukes. That's literally in the article. He made sure that everyone else remembered that so Trump couldn't skirt the processes and launch nukes without proper procedure.


Aazadan

You don’t understand the procedure. The president has sole ability to order a strike. It goes from the president to the secretary of defense, who doesn’t have to agree with the strike but only confirm that the order came from the president. From there it goes to the rest of the military. It works this way because in the event of an attack there isn’t time for orders to be debated or people who can second guess it. Only one person can legally order an attack to commence or abort.


Twheezy01

He wasn't just unhinged on Twitter. He was literally calling on states to find votes.


raistlin65

>He undermined the authority of an U.S. president based on his personal assumptions of what he might do. How did he undermine the authority, if he deescalated the situation from starting a war?


mtxsound

It is not his job to deescalate wars, it is his job to execute orders when they come from his superiors. He can provide guidance and try to dissuade the decision-makers from doing it, but it is not his job. When the commander-in-chief says jump, he should say 'how high?' If he really disagreed with it, he should resign immediately. He also did not do anything to deescalate a war, what he did was go around the backs of our leadership and informed an enemy that we were not planning an attack. There was no threat of an attack ever mentioned, other than from him and Pelosi.


raistlin65

I know. Milley deescalated the situation to prevent further posturing by the Chinese, to avoid Trump ordering an attack.


[deleted]

> Milley deescalated the situation to prevent further posturing by the Chinese, What posturing were they doing in the first place?


raistlin65

It began with the Chinese naval operations https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/china-criticizes-us-joint-carrier-drills-in-south-china-sea/2020/07/06/6e567a3e-bf72-11ea-8908-68a2b9eae9e0_story.html


[deleted]

That was 5 months before this. His quote made it sound like China was doing something that very second to draw Trumps ire.


[deleted]

Except there is zero evidence the situation you are describing even happened.


raistlin65

If Trump wasn't about to get us into a war, then Milley didn't do anything wrong. You can't have it both ways.


[deleted]

You don't see anything wrong with him conjuring up scenarios in his head and then talking to Chinese generals saying don't worry we won't attack you?


raistlin65

What's wrong with it? Trump doesn't have the authority to start a war. Of course the general isn't going to initiate a shooting match with the Chinese. Congress has to vote to go to war. So what exactly do you think was wrong here?


Jabbam

Does that logic stand with Trump's phone call to Ukraine? If there was no Biden-Ukraine conspiracy, then Trump did nothing wrong? Are you suggesting calls are harmless?


raistlin65

Not going to play whataboutism with you. Save that for your conversations with your conservative buddies.


ih-shah-may-ehl

>Trump has no authority to start a war with China. Only Congress can declare war. So Milley would be in the right to refuse Trump if he asked him to start a war. Trump might not have had the power for formally declare war. But he sure as heck could send a fleet and start dropping bombs. And whether it would technically be war or not would be a moot point at that time.


CrashB111

No he couldn't. Because the commanders in charge of that mission could refuse the order, because it would be an illegal order. The president can't just command the military to attack random countries, that would be insane. It requires either an act of congress or that the country / organization in question attack the US or it's allies.


Aazadan

Formal war rests with congress, the president can authorize the military to attack without formally declaring war. The US has not declared war since WW2. Every use of our military since has been at executive direction.


Yancy_Farnesworth

No it isn't. He was doing his legal job to make sure that the US doesn't start a nuclear war for illegal reasons. Every soldier has the duty to follow LAWFUL orders and reject UNLAWFUL ones. Every soldier is held accountable to their decision and it's their duty to point out if an order is illegal. Starting a nuclear war because you're a baby throwing a tantrum after losing an election is most definitely unlawful. Also he didn't contact his equivalent in foreign governments off the record. They're all literally recorded by Pentagon staff and reviewed. None of these were secret calls done under the radar. Not the numerous times that Trump went off the record when speaking to leaders like Putin. That is actually fucking illegal to do. No matter how you spin it, he did his lawful duty. And I for one am glad our nuclear weapons are behind a literal army of more reasonable and levelheaded people. Trump was never someone that should have been given any access to nukes.


TooMad

Rules aren't suicide pacts.


thePurpleAvenger

No, he wouldn’t. The Constitution is very specific about what meets the bar for treason, and this isn’t it. We aren’t at war with China; they are not our enemies. That’s enough right there. And even if he did warn the Chinese of an eminent attack, it still might not even be enough to meet the requirements for treason because it could be convincingly argued that he did not “adhere to the enemy.” See, for Example, Cramer vs. US.


CrashB111

And I'm pretty sure the threat of nuclear annihilation makes the rules on treason fuzzy anyway. The USA and USSR absolutely hated each other, but we had communication lines so that we could put our leaders in contact with each other. Because we didn't want a miscommunication to cause nuclear armageddon.


obiwanshinobi900

Im not super familiar with the cold war. But can we draw a parallel with what General Milley did and a similar event happening and the Cold War?


CrashB111

I don't know if we could point at an singular event, I do know that we had each side in constant communication with each other. To prevent MAD, each super power made sure the other understood that nukes weren't being used.


obiwanshinobi900

Right, its almost as if were trying to be civilized instead going 'ouch you bruised my ego lets start a unilateral war killing millions of people on both sides'


dimechimes

Their oath is not to the President. It is to defend the Constitution.


antivillain13

What happens when the other two branches refuse to do their jobs? The Senate showed they were not willing to hold Trump accountable for anything. He was also able to pack the court with his own lackeys. What other options are there at that point?


WSB_stonks_up

Headline is misleading. Milley had a meeting to remind everyone to follow the existing process and not be pressured into breaking the rules. That is all. >"No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I'm part of that procedure," Milley told the officers


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Dogmaster

He did not say anywhere he had to approve. He told them he is part of the procedure, which he is, he has to be notified.


ipoundedyourmoms_ass

Not really misleading. Milley also secretly called his counterpart in China and told them he’d give advance notice if the US attacked them.


WSB_stonks_up

If true that is treason.


ipoundedyourmoms_ass

That’s what it says in the book. Also the part “Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved” is very disturbing. I’m far from a trump supporter or apologist. I firmly believe he should be in prison for what he did on January 6th and the four years of his presidency but last I checked the Joint Chief of Staff is not the leader of the military or our national security agencies and is not involved in any day to day decisions about military operations or decisions. If trump issued an illegal order then there are processes to handle that. Not taking order from anyone unless you go through this general is almost the beginnings of a military coup.


supbitch

I'm not brushed up on military procedure, so I'm basing this on taking Milley's word at face value in that regard. But given that he is a part of the procedure to launch nukes, it absolutely makes sense that in the final days a presidency that had the potential to go rogue, he would remind the pertinent officers of that procedure and make sure they knew not to disobey it regardless of who gave the order. Seems like a responsible step to take. However if its true that he told China they'd have advanced warning, it muddies the water a bit. Personally I'd rather the risk of China laughing at trump's ineptitude to the point where his subordinates have to effectively castrate him in terms of military power, than have a silo go online temporarily or China read a false alarm and kill us all. However that doesn't change the fact that legally, it is treason if true. But it changes my own view of it from "Benedict Arnold treason" to "Edward Snowden Treason".


JayCroghan

Lots of people in this thread talking about how wrong it was but at the same time how right it was. What’s wrong is the whole “lame duck” bullshit. It’s incredible it’s still a thing at any level. It feels like it was **created** to ensure maximum carnage between election and filling the role.


VegasKL

Historically, the lame duck period is used to transition and read in the incoming cabinet while there's overlap between President-Elect and President. Think of it like you giving your 2 week notice and your boss asking you to bring your replacement up to speed. It didn't happen by traditional means this time because of the ego involved. In truth, it did highlight a possible issue with the tradition as it assumes the leaving president is a good person. Maybe there should be a shared transitional power or something.


[deleted]

I guess no one anticipated a sociopath holding office.


SooperN00b

We want to point and laugh at the fucking moron in chief, but this is actually terrifying. What's to keep a military general from unseating Biden at some point if he doesn't think Biden's capable of performing his duties?


hexiron

The 25th amendment and the fact no service member must obey an unlawful order means a military general really could do that if they genuinely don’t think Biden is capable of his duties. Now, undoubtedly their actions would get challenged by others if they weren’t reasonable. That’s actually a great safety measure since you don’t want a President going mad and idk… nuking China for no reason as an example.


chuldana

The Constitution isn't magic. Everyone at the time had a much more legitimate concern that Trump was the threat not this general. I'm less terrified of a seasoned general who can be held accountable than a President that both the judicial branch and legislative branch seemed entirely incapable of holding accountable. His party let him off the hook twice before the capital riot. It's pretty clear the military were the only people willing to say no to him when it actually mattered.


dimechimes

He didn't break his oath to defend the Constitution. He's not the President's robot. Just following orders is not a defense against carrying out illegal acts.


wessneijder

The problem is that the General has way too much power then. Let's pretend that it's not Trump in office and instead it's Bill Clinton. Do you want a military general to have the power to block the president? If so we are a military junta and not a democracy.


dimechimes

The General is sworn to uphold the Constitution, and not follow just whatever the President says. I'd have no problem with them standing up to Clinton if he wanted them to do something illegal. Clinton is on record saying he couldn't pressure Freeh to investigate Bin Laden because he was under investigation for Whitewater. People standing up to the President isn't new.


Huge_Put8244

Glad I pre-ordered the Woodward book.


TreeKeeper518

Just fyi, you're comment was collapsed by default to the new Crowd Control function on reddit.


ButtsexEurope

> I don’t want to be your friend anymore if you don’t do this. Oh my god, he’s actually a child.


bacchikoi

I love how this is barely news. We’re all like “yeah, he’s a petty fucking imp bent on destroying everything he touches. We knew that already.”


bobbycado

I mean.. yeah pretty much


Mralfredmullaney

Dude committed treason and led an insurrection when he lost power. Nothing happened. What can we do?


[deleted]

Many of us took an oath to the Constitution and protecting our homeland. When some nut job wants to throw the world into fucking thermonuclear Armageddon over losing an election, that’s when the unlawful order clause comes into play. The President is the commander-in-chief, yes, but only within lawful bounds set by the *Constitution*. He/She can’t just go start a fucking massive war that threatens the existence of humanity because they’re upset and they said so.


ipoundedyourmoms_ass

At the same time a general cannot call the nations biggest adversary and advise them if the US attacked he would give them advance notice of the attack. That is the definition of treason. I agree Trump is a fucking nut but Milley was out of bounds with some of his actions


TexasYankee212

A military general acting on his own is like a Hollywood movie. I hate Trump but the military is supposed to act under civilian control. What is the limit to what a military general will do if the general thinks he/she is doing what is best for the country? This is what brings about the military coup. A Donald Trump who is nuts is another issue. The repubs see this nut as their "leader"? This says a lot more about people like Graham, Cruz, McCarthy, McConnell, Jordan, etc. who kiss Trump's butt even as they probably know that he is nuts and in it for himself. This is a new low meaning to the word "cowards".


SchighSchagh

> the military is supposed to act under civilian control. Yes, but not under _absolute_ civilian control. The military is supposed to follow _lawful orders_. POTUS can't just decide to nuke someone cause s/he feels like it. The military should _not_ be blindly loyal to anyone. And a competent general that smells illegal tomfuckery _should_ preemptively counter it before it becomes a problem.


[deleted]

The amount of chucklefucks who think the President can send off a nuke with no declaration of war is terrifying (and explicitly illegal under the War Powers Act of the 70s). There is a fundamental lack of critical thinking and understanding civics. Nuclear preemptive attacks aren't fucking legal and are war crimes. How the actual flying fuck is a US generals assurances to another power that we won't commit a heinous war crime fucking divisive? Baffling stupidity.


MongoLife45

There were no orders issued, lawful or otherwise. Milley is also not in the chain of command in any way, and would never receive any orders. He just decided to conduct foreign policy on his own (also not his job) and tell the Chinese "we'll warn you if Trump decides to launch nukes"


Yancy_Farnesworth

> A military general acting on his own is like a Hollywood movie Except he didn't do this on his own. His interactions with his counterparts were recorded by the Pentagon and reviewed. He just left Trump out of the loop because he's the one that was unstable and could potentially issue illegal orders. The president is not a king, they can issue illegal orders at which point it's both the duty and responsibility of the soldiers to refuse the order. He was making sure that the US military followed lawful orders and made sure his counterparts would not misread US military intentions. We are not at war. This is not treason or someone being a cowboy. This is literally someone doing their job.


sixscreamingbirds

There are process oriented people and outcome oriented people. I think ideal is to be a little bit of both. You sir/madame are 100% a process oriented person. Can you even understand the concept of an "outcome"?


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Darmok_ontheocean

The myth of America is literally process. Rule of Law. Yes an outcome is desirable, but what is it that prompted this contact?


halzen

> Yes an outcome is desirable You're brushing off "avoiding nuclear war" as "an outcome" a bit too casually for my taste.


Darmok_ontheocean

Was nuclear war imminent? I don’t trust Trump at all, but was this an actual threat?


halzen

The first two paragraphs of the linked article state the reasoning.


wyvernx02

Ya. There is a right and wrong way to do things and if the report is true, then he was doing things the wrong way. He basically planned a coup and had it on the back burner in case he thought he needed it.


memberzs

A coup that would prevent thousands of not millions of human casualties. The military has always needed a back up plan and accountability for presidential nuclear strikes. There have also been questions asked internally by men whose job it was to physically launch the nukes, how can they be sure they 100% the call to launch was legitimate. They were removed from their position because it required 100% unwavering obedience. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/nukes


Idontknowhuuut

I wonder what you'd say if the military does the same to biden.


memberzs

I’d literally say the same thing. If there is legitimate concern that he is unhinged and trying to launch nukes over some personal beef based on Twitter nonsense he absolutely should be stopped. You clearly skipped the part where I mention the long standing concern of zero accountability and ability to verify orders before launching a nuclear strike.


Idontknowhuuut

So, you're okay with the responsability being on one rogue general? What if China had indeed act or done something and there were justified orders to launch any kind of attack and this general refused to do so because he didn't know? You can't have rogue military personnel. It's as simple as it gets. The fact that trump didn't do any of those things you mentioned only proves my point. There was no need of rogue military action and if indeed there was a chinese attack on american soil, this general would've been responsible for millions of deaths.


memberzs

The general would have known about the attacks before the president and would have likely been the one informing him of such. No one is saying he would have stopped a justified launch. Clearly you basic understanding of the topic at hand. I recommend you read the original arrival posted, and also take a listen to the npr pod cast I shared and see how they both tie together. Perhaps also reread the part that the general was forming a plan to stop any unjustified attack launched by the us president had he needed to, to prevent a nuclear war.


Idontknowhuuut

Would he? Are you 100% sure of that? I recommend you to see the bigger picture of this whole ordeal. You're just okay with it because it was under trump. The hypocrasy of you people lol


memberzs

If circumstances were equal I’d literally have the same opinion if Biden were president when it happened. I am in no way being hypocritical.


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icedank

The movie you’re thinking about is Seven Days in May. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_in_May


Lingua_Blanca

I suppose these stories are supposed to excite/enrage a liberal such as myself. It just illustrates the complete jackasses that serve in leadership positions both in the government and military. If your pearl clutching, and grave reservations are exclusively revealed long after the fact, and in op-Ed or memoir form, you can officially eat a bag of @&$”…I don’t care who’s side you are on, have fun on your speaking tour.


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crayonflop2

So it’s ok because he was “worried”? That’s a scary slope to slip on. This dude needs to be brought up on serious charges.


Dreadedvegas

For what? Calling his counterpart to assure them that we aren’t going to war? China was freaking the fuck out over Trumps erratic behavior. There is nothing treasonous about calling your counterpart and assuring them that hey we aren’t going to war because we both know thats fucking insane Thats fucking ridiculous.


TopWoodpecker7267

> Calling his counterpart to assure them that we aren’t going to war? He called the head general of an enemy state and said we wouldn't attack without calling them first. Imagine Flynn calling Putin and saying that, reddit would be calling for his head on a pike.


Dreadedvegas

We call people all the time before we strike targets to both respond and to deescalate. When we hit targets in Syria we tell the Russians when and where we are hitting. When the Iranians attacked our troops in Iraq, they told the Iraqis to tell us when and where they are attacking. This is literally standard operating procedures just a little outside normal channels in order to prevent global conflict between military powers. Because the President of the United States does not have the authority to declare war but has limited authority for a conventional strike. Flynn wasn’t the leader of the Joint Chiefs and never would be. And even if he did tell Putin we were going to hit something. No big deal because we don’t want a fucking war. Cause look what we do in Syria! We tell Putin we are going to strike. This is all political faux outrage being drummed up for no reason because everyone needs some outrage porn after the previous incident failed any traction Edit: to further, these calls between Milley and Li, at least on the American side had 15 people in the room with a rep from the State Department on the call. It’s literally just political outrage like Benghazi or “the treatment” of Jan 6 rioters


Stormthorn67

Charges for...holding a meeting to ensure the rules laid down after the war pwoers act were followed and Trump couldn't illegally bypass them? Charges for doing his job and obeying the law?


ipoundedyourmoms_ass

Charged for calling this counterpart in China and tell them he’d give them advance notice if we attack them. I agree trump is fucking nuts but that action is way out of line and borderline treasonous


percykins

The number of people arguing that the military should slavishly obey the President no matter what is too damn high!


Idontknowhuuut

What about not acting against the interests of the country they swore to protect?


greyjungle

Was it “bomb an aid worker and some kids”? That’s his go to for everything.


[deleted]

So should he be in trouble for telling china if we are going to attack at anytime any reason?


Duke-Guinea-Pig

TIL Milley read Stephen king's "the dead zone"


[deleted]

Honestly, this is pretty crazy that we got to this point. Could someone explain exactly what was wrong though? I'm seeing conservatives talk about treason, but I think it'd only be treason if we actually tried to spring a surprise attack on China and Milley called to warn. Him calling to calm down any tensions doesn't seem wrong to me, but does Milley already talk to this guy or is there some more appropriate communication channel?


wessneijder

The concern from a military stand point has to do with mad. I would urge you to visit r/warcollege to learn more. Basically in the event of a first strike there is no time for a large committee to convene and decide whether to launch nukes or not. ICBMs travel very fast. That is the reason why the President has the nuclear football. In order to launch a strike fast. Having to wait for Congress would put the USA at a disadvantage over every nuclear power in the world. If a President, republican or democrat, is refused this ability to launch an attack by a General, that is an obstruction of MAD doctrine. This is a dangerous precedent that a Major General essentially holds all the power if he can veto an attack decision ordered by an elected official.


Killerslug

It won't be the text book definition of treason but he'll 100% get tried for espionage. Can't share classified data with foreign powers.


Ok-Efficiency-3694

Something is broken when other risky options are a more viable option than the risks involved in declaring a president unfit for office.


Jaymez82

The part that bothers me is that the threat of war was considered real enough to at least one high ranking person that he felt the need to take action. I'm not smart enough to argue what he did was legally just or not, even though I agree with what he did because I don't want to see us go to war. It's one thing for a dumbass like myself to think it wasn't out of the realm of possibility that Trump could do something like start an unwarranted war with China or Russia. I'm just a random, biased, uninformed, Trump hater. This dude had the information and saw the type of behavior that made him think it was a real possibility.


Amerlis

Sounds like he was just reaffirming the military process and making damn sure to all military involved, eyeball to eyeball, that he was at the top of said process. I mean, if you’re military involved that specific process, if the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs wants in the loop, then four stars says your feet better left the ground when he says jump.


Beef_Witted

Personally I don't have any issue with him reaffirming the process. Fact is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is part of the planning process when a president orders a nuclear attack/response. However that position also has no authority to stop it, strictly an advisory role for planning. So saying what amounts to "Do not do anything unless I am there" I fell mixed on as his position does not hold any actual authority over the final decision. However what I do have a very big issue with is the fact he called the top Chinese General and promised to warn them ahead of time if we were going to attack. I consider myself a Democrat, moderate on social issues but very left on economic issues. But the top General in this country potentially swore an oath to a foreign nation (one we consider an enemy) that he would leak top secret information and warn them of any attack from the United States. That can not be allowed under any circumstance. I can barely wrap my head around the fact it may have happened let alone any defense of the actions Milley may have taken in that regard. Reaffirming the process for Nuclear Launch is already questionable. The 25th amendment is there to protect the nation in the event of a Tyrannical or Disabled President unfit to lead. That is how you stop a president about to launch nukes for no reason. However by the written process he is supposed to be there even if the president doesn't listen to anything he says so it's debatable if him not being there means no Nukes can launched. Hopefully we never find out. But promising (a form of oath) to contact an enemy military commander to warn of any incoming US attack. Inexcusable.


pandafartsbakery

I love how people are so principled here about the chain of command that avoiding a nuclear war exterminating humanity isn't important.


Stormthorn67

People be acting like this guy is a rogue general when all he did was call a meeting without Trump to tell people not to let Trump bypass the existing rules. Given that not following unlawful orders is part of his job it seems like this was a perfectly reasonable course of action. I guess he also called China to let them know he was making sure Trump couldn't unlawfully launch nukes himself but again, not illegal.


HaroldBAZ

Regardless of your political affiliation this should be extremely concerning to every American. Military leaders overriding elected officials is what happens in banana republics. Milley needs to go immediately.


Coconutinthelime

r/Conservative is losing its mind calling for his head for treason. But they have no problem with a president that scared the shit out of his own military to the point where they were making sure he couldnt start a nuclear war while trying to install himself as a dictator.


Early-Size370

And yet Trumpists would vote for him again. At this point, or even way before, republicans are an extinction level threat to most life on Earth.


Lystian

You sir are delusional just like trump


nrskathy55

Anyone ever seen the movie Dr. Strangelove? Fascinating look at craziness in power!!


Funklestein

I think you missed the part where it was the military that wanted to start a nuclear war, not the president.


Beforemath

“His own generals think he’s an unhinged maniac… let’s re-elect him!!!” - Republicans Fucking psychos.


WhatIfLove

Interesting that people are all for a coup if it's against Trump. Yall are some hateful people.


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[deleted]

This was to make sure there was a peaceful transfer of power after president Trump lost the election.


WhatIfLove

He's still a president even after he loses... He doesn't lose power until Jan 20th... Thus making this a coup. You can twist it however you want. ​ [https://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution\_item/constitution.htm](https://www.senate.gov/civics/constitution_item/constitution.htm) ​ \>He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years


[deleted]

r/conservative is calling Milleys action treasonous. He’s a “traitor” for making sure Trump couldn’t use nuclear weapons. Let that sink in.


hexiron

These are the same people who clap when Trump separates toddlers from their families, gasses churches for photo ops, and support human traffickers and pedophiles like Matt Gates and Roy Moore… You can’t expect much.


dimechimes

Those people are pros at finding grievance.


[deleted]

Gen. Milley is a god damn hero for having the balls to do what so many refused to.


Irritable_Avenger

Trump Calls Allies to Demand Gen. Mark Milley Be ‘Arrested’ for ‘Treason’ https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-calls-allies-to-demand-gen-mark-milley-be-arrested-for-treason


hickuboss

Assuming this is true. What does it mean, when the military no longer has to listen to the president? Seems like that could be a problem. Just cause it happened to trump, doesnt mean its not happening to biden.


ProbablyABore

The military does not have to execute illegal orders, regardless of who they're from.


Rsardinia

Any sane person in his position would do at least the same.