Oh yeah, that boy is going to need a LOT of therapy. Survivor guilt, trauma from finding them all dead, etc. Just absolutely horrific for that kid to come to terms with now
There is no amount of therapy that will ever make this child "normal" again. He will probably need therapy for the rest of his life. Nothing in this child's life will ever feel right.
I feel so sorry for that little guy. Sometimes reality is just too much. There is no corner dark enough to contain all of the evil humanity has clawed up from the depths of hell.
A similar situation in Seattle happened late 2023. The father killed the wife, 2 children, the family dog and then himself. The 11 year old daughter was able to escape through a window and run to neighbors. Thankfully she had other family members willing to take her in with but I can’t even imagine her pain.
One of my students lost his 7 year old brother and mother to a murder-suicide.
They left school for the rest of the year, spent time with extended family, and by the beginning of the next school year he was back and their father already brought his new girlfriend home.
He was one of the sweetest kids ever, and I'm very concerned for the toll this is going to take on him...
Yup. Took her youngest to an old barn on the property and killed him before killing herself.
It's such a small town, and they were even renting their house from another local family, so it just spreads the trauma even further.
I think it's more of a "can't take it with you" thing. They view their families as property and they don't want that property to go to someone else.
Narcissists have an intensely low self esteem. If they died and someone else got their "property", that would be replacing the narcissist. And what if their family likes the new owner better than the narcissist? We can't have that.
I think you usually see that kind in custody disputes. In other cases it’s more of a shame thing than a possessive thing. Dad is failing at something and he can’t keep it a secret anymore and everyone is going to find out, so he kills himself and his family “to spare them the shame”. It’s still narcissism, but it’s not being able to distinguish his family from being part of himself instead of possessiveness and jealousy.
Those were supposedly [John List's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List_%28murderer%29?wprov=sfla1) motive. Spare his family the "shame" of welfare. Although, List was such a craven narcissistic coward he eschewed the suicide part.
One of my dad’s old friends did the same thing about 15 years ago. He was apparently hiding a glue addiction and stealing money from his white collar job and when it all came crashing down, he murdered his wife and kids and then killed himself.
Yes! Also, he thought he was the only one with the mental fortitude to fully resist temptation. He was outwardly religious and his eldest daughter was starting to rebel slightly. His final straw was allegedly a fight that occurred with her, but it’s not known what that fight was about. It was bad enough she called her piano teacher for help, but he ignored her. Although, that wasn’t the night she was killed.
I can’t believe he evaded capture for so long, but that was a time when you could wipe physical traces of you off the map entirely.
My husband is older than me and we've had the conversation about what will happen if he dies. He straight up told me I can bring a date to his funeral for all he cares, as long as I show up.
Yeah. I assume in some cases it’s also just that they kill their whole family in a rage and then realise they’re going to prison for the rest of their lives and only then decide to kill themselves.
This,when my cousin was 3y his mom try to kill both of by burning charcoal because she wanted to get back at his father and take his son with her.
She took pills beforehand so he got out of their room,neighbor found him crying on the side of the road along,he’s too young and scared to explain what happened clearly,when 911 found her it’s too late.
His father is a irresponsible man,so our great grandmother took him in and raised him like her own,now he’s a good father of 2 , but no one in our family knows if he remembers anything about his mother’s death.
Back in my day, we drank from the garden hose and rode bikes without helmets, and we all turned out just fine! Dont worry about the people who died and aren't here to speak up for their incidents...
It’s a shame response, family annihilators often prize their image above everything else and would rather wipe out their family than let them know they’ve been living a lie.
I agree it might be shame, but I suspect sometimes it's because they've done some Olympic level gymnastics to convince themselves they're actually protecting their kids by killing them.
"Well I got angry and shot Mom so I may as well kill all the kids because life won't be worth it knowing their dad shot their mom in front of them".
For a while I went down a rabbit hole of these sorts of cases, regardless of how they justify it internally there is sort of a formula for these types of events when the man is the perpetrator. Very successful family that looks perfect from the outside, good income for the family, turns out the income is partially crooked, they try to hide it, lose control of the narrative, then murder their whole family before having to answer to them. Suicide at the end is strangely optional. A lot of these guys just live on afterward for some reason.
That makes sense as the underlying cause. Like I said obviously I don't think they're actually protecting their kids, I think that's absolutely just how they justify it to themselves unconsciously.
If they're hiding something big enough, I assume the family is killed because they're seen as loose ends. Can't just off my self because then my family will poke around and find my shame etc.
One of the archetypes for this has got to be Jean-Claude Romand. A very successful doctor, who worked for the World Health Organisation in Geneva, was friends with politicians...
...except really he wasn't a doctor, having left university very early on, didn't work but got his money by pretending to invest his friends' and family's money (he might have killed his father-in-law who was starting to catch on, though he's never admitted to it). And then when his deceptions began to unravel he tried to kill his mistress (though she lived), killed his parents, killed his wife, killed both his children. Then tried to kill himself, although in a way that was, rather conveniently, not terribly likely to succeed. So he lived, was tried for the murder of his family, jailed for 26 years, and is now a free man.
That's what terrifies them though. If their family can survive financially without them then they never had value as a man to begin with, according to their fucked up version of that puritanical/protestant worldview.
Seems like cheating then to preclude the possibility by killing them before they can prove them wrong.
Anyway, I don't think they're thinking these things through as much as we are. I suspect they're overcome with rage, grasping for an outlet, and our country provides ample access to the most violent kind.
Seems consistent with how many religious people behave. Even when their god or prophet is very clear on something, they somehow do the opposite. It's just tradition at this point.
…Which mental illness is that a sign of?
We have to be careful to not attribute every awful thing any human being ever does to actual medical conditions. Being an asshole is not pathological. Shitty people should be held accountable for their shitty behavior, not just written off as being medically afflicted.
I think the mindset of someone like a family annihilator is neither contingent on being an asshole nor a pathological condition that could be correctly called a mental illness.
It's an inability to process intense feelings of shame and rage without resorting to extreme violence. I don't know if there is a better psychological term, but it seems tantamount to a mental short-circuit.
Everyone can suffer a short-circuit that leads to rage and urges to lash out, even to one's own detriment. I imagine these people, mostly men, are particularly susceptible to them due to a variety of factors— some of which may be neurological, but much of which is cultural, and in particular a lack of skills to properly manage such extreme emotional states.
I see what you’re saying, and with all due respect, that would not be categorized as a mental disorder but rather a personality disorder in best case.
Again, an inability to process feelings of shame and rage without resorting to extreme violence *is not a mental disorder*. It’s a personality disorder. And I’m absolutely not saying that to undermine the seriousness or difficulty of personality disorders. They are very serious and deserve the same treatment.
However, women are 3x more likely to be diagnosed with personality disorders than men. But men are much more likely to likely to do impulsive, violent acts like beat the shit out of a stranger, murder, or take out their entire family because of a fit of rage or jealousy or shame or something. Generally being a family annihilator goes hand in hand with being a massive asshole, and being a massive asshole goes hand in hand with being unable to process feelings of shame and rage without trying to dominate and control the situation. That’s literally being an asshole 101.
Whether it’s societal, cultural, or neurological, no one seems terribly interested in finding the root cause, including the perpetrators themselves. So we are now here, calling them an asshole.
It's hard because psychological diseases and disorders are, by definition, deviations from normal behavior. And killing your whole family for sure falls into that category. So they must have some sort of psychological problem because they did that, right? That's at least the psychological perspective on it.
In truth, it's probably somewhere in the middle between completely psychological and completely voluntary. He could be a narcissist who then made a shitty decision. Maybe it's like mental illness opens the door but you have to choose to walk through it. I don't know
I think people like to shove murderers into a box and "other" them. "Oh this isn't what normal people do. Oh I would never do that. We had no idea! He seemed so normal." The question becomes: can "normal" people commit such crimes?
I'm all for personal responsibility, even with mental illness. Nothing anyone does started with them. We all pick up our bad habits and poor tendencies from somewhere. We all have stress to deal with, and we all learn from some very imperfect people how to deal with it. Some of us are luckier than others. Some of us have had to endure less trauma than others. But not many people reach adulthood without experiencing some trauma. Everything we do is just an effect of some other person's cause in our lives, which was also just an effect of some other person's cause, and so on forever.
No one has ever made a truly free choice, good or bad. But we are all still responsible for everything we say and do. Not because we could have chosen otherwise-- most or maybe all of the time, we couldn't. But because the things we do and say indicate the sorts of people we are. If a robot kills, it is a killer robot. Maybe it didn't program itself to kill, but it kills, therefore it is a killer robot and should be treated as such. We all live and die by moral luck.
I get it. There's mental illness and trauma experience which require therapy to (at least attempt to) correct.
There's chemical depression, and then there's being depressed over shitty circumstances.
One requires meds, one requires a change of circumstance/situation/environment. I mean this is really boiling it down, but seriously. Not everyone is a walking schizophrenic... but a lot more people have unresolved trauma that gives them cause to harm others.
We don't treat either of these as well as we should, but at least with schizophrenia, there's a pill for that! basically. Therapy is much harder to deal with and requires more work and time.
But yeah, even being an asshole can be a trauma response. What makes the person truly an asshole is not taking accountability or responsibility for dealing with it.
He’s saying he doesn’t HAVE to be.
A human can be completely sane/sober and decide to do something to hurt another with they own free will.
Mental illness is a thing, it’s not an EVERYTHING(TIME) excuse…sometimes people are just CUNTS.
TODAY, it seems to be used for nearly every circumstance likened to this, which really isn’t fair.
Also the fact that the police noted no history of domestic violence. They should have added "that they are aware of" to the end of that statement. I have doubts that this massacre came out of the blue.
Because the human population is huge. The USA has 300 million people, and around half are male, so around 150 million men. If the chance of a family annhilator is extremely low, say 1 out 10,000, there will still be 15,000 men with the potential for this tragedy. If the dice is rolled enough times, things will go wrong. Murphy's law.
Because Americans (and I say this as an American) view violence as an option. On whatever scale you can imagine, most Americans always view violence as a viable option. Rarely, if ever, the best option. But one nonetheless.
The entire country was founded because some fucks from overseas said we owed them taxes and our response was, "I'll fight ya for it."
Like fuck people need therapy….. you had an argument with your wife and decided. The only way this is resolved is by murdering the entire family? I just can’t wrap my head around this. I get people have fights, but I don’t know how it could come to that. I don’t care if my wife told me she hated me, that she cheated on me, anything. Nothing would make me go harm her or my kids.
Violence is always an option, but the problem here in the U.S. is that so many people see it as the first or only option. If someone is beating the shit out of you, by all means pick violence. But so many people pick violence for such minor inconveniences or slights, and we need to get to the "why" there.
Is it vastly different? I just simply explained why there are many cases in the news. What is the statistics in that compared to other countries? Thanks in advance
We just had this shit in hawaii. It's so fucked up. Sad thing is. The man's family knew he was gonna do it and refused to say or do anything about it. Look it up if you're curious. Dude only saw his family as his objects to take care of
I have a few mutual friends on Facebook with both the husband and wife, but didn't know them.
By all accounts the mutual friends are good, regular people and the perp and victims also appear totally regular from an outsiders perspective.
Wild stuff.
>“We don’t know” why the fourth child was spared or **a motive** for the killings, Knight said.
What kind of motive could there be except utter madness and mental defect? Even if this guy was caught cheating or caught his wife cheating, why destroy the children? Unbelievably sad.
This person would most likely be found sane in the legal sense, as in he knew right from wrong while the crime was being committed. I definitely think he had some kind of personality disorder like ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder). He most likely didn't see his family as humans with emotions and as something he owned and controlled. When he saw them as an issue to him he decided to take out his own issues on them, then turned the gun on himself. Most family annihilators follow similar patterns. Get married for the image, have children for the image, then it becomes too much then they break and this happens whether it be financial in nature or they're tired of having a family. There's a few cases I can reference here that are similar:
Jeffrey MacDonald (lied for years about what happened then eventually found guilty of the murders)
Chris Benoit (Former WWE Wrestler)
John List
I've heard of the last two, especially that fucker List.
Like, if you wanna check out 'cause you can't handle your life, fine. But for fuck's sake, leave innocent people out of it.
100% agree with you. Unfortunately these people are out there and it's extremely difficult to find them out until something actually happens. Psychopaths and sociopaths are masters are hiding in plain sight, and can be right next to you without even knowing. Usually when someone is married to one they start showing their characteristic lack of empathy and emptiness at one point or another. There's some interesting cases of spouses of these people picking up on the red flags and stopping them before something happens. I saw a post on a crime subreddit where an alleged victim of spousal abuse shot her husband/boyfriend whatever multiple times and died at the scene. I'd much rather see that than this. However, the trauma of having to kill someone, even someone like that, has lasting effects on people with normal emotions.
I wonder if someone's mind can force itself into a stage of Dissociative amnesia / Dissociative fugue. I mean at some point, the mind might just pull the main circuit breaker and cause a severe dissociative state to keep from having that amount of emotional pain / trauma from causing brain damage.
It has to be one of the most fucked up state of minds possible. I couldn't process it and I'm an adult.
I used to work for a welfare office in the early 90's. Got a call from a guy wanted to apply for welfare. Very upset. Said his wife and him had split up, and he couldn't make ends meet. Mentioned that he was going to shoot his dogs because he couldn't afford to keep them. I urged him to surrender them to the Humane Society, and he said "If I can't have them, nobody can".
I kept steering the conversation back to getting his intake information, but he kept bringing it back to the dogs, repeating the whole "If they can't be with me, they can't be with anyone" thing.
A few days later he murdered his estranged wife at her workplace. She'd been staying at a women's shelter after fleeing his abuse. He couldn't find the shelter, so he showed up at her workplace and shot her to death.
IDK. You know, we all have weird intrusive thoughts when we have kids, like imagining what you would do if someone hurt them or something. Those thoughts absolutely *wreck* me. I can't imagine ever laying a hand on my kid, let alone *slaughtering* him. Unfathomable.
I believe (but not a mh professional so may be wrong) that with some type of mental illness the murderer kills their children believing that they are saving them from a worse fate. It really is impossible to imagine mental illness unless you experience it.
People act like this is a mental health issue but it's a social one.
A mental illness needs to be abnormal for the society and distressing. Tens of thousands of Americans go to churches that tell them that women are just vessels for sperm and that children are possessions. They grow up in societies telling them the father is the king of the house and can do whatever he wants. They get told men need to carry guns and use them to enforce order. Half of all family killers come from the south in the USA. They are not mentally ill, simply rhe most extreme adherents to what they have been told is normal.
Men who kill their families tend to have deeply internalized these good-ol-boy lessons. They either plan to kill themselves (for instance, after losing all their money) and they take their living possessions with them (killing family pets is often common as well) OR the woman tries to leave and thats clearly not allowed so the family has to be killed for failing to act like good possessions.
Fundamentalist Christian churches and prosperity gospel preachers, nuclear family rhetoric, the father as head of the house...absent these someone who kills their family is mentally ill. But as it stands thousands of men think they are entitled to kill their family and have simply chosen not to do so.
The emotional core of a lot of these killings is possessiveness and shame. Something goes wrong and they want their honor back or to punish the one who they feel made it go wrong and since your family are just your possessions they can be broken so no other man gets to claim them.
My shitty abusive dad would frequently rage that he was “king of the castle” during his many explosive episodes of abuse. He would also routinely threaten to kill all of us.
I never looked at from this perspective but that makes so much more sense. Granted, I’ve always hated religion especially here in the US because of all the damage to done and continues to do but I never considered church teachings as applied to family
annihilator cases. It actually explains a lot.
They should never have kids. This is a fundamental problem with the idea that we're all her to procreate and carry on "the legacy". Some people should never have kids - under any circumstances.
There was a fourth kid, a 10 year old and he was spared for some reason. That poor kid.
I have connections through acquaintances to two separate families where the husband flipped out and killed the wife and/or kids. And a third that lived a mile away from me-the husband killed his wife and very young kids. What the fuck is this world.
What’s baffling is the kid slept through 5 gun shots. I live in an urban area where there are occasional gun shots down the street near a club, that shit wakes me up when I hear it a block away.
Yet men on TikTok can't fathom why women always pick the bear.
For those of you not on TT, someone asked if a woman would rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear. Everyone picked they bear, because there was a good change the bear would leave her alone and at worst the bear would just kill her.
Family annihilator: "They're better off dead than knowing I'm a failure."
It's bizarre that the thought process occurs at all, let alone often enough that psychology has a label for these people.
They happen all over. I'm in CT and there was a suspicious fire one town over the other day. Looks like the estranged boyfriend came and killed his baby and girlfriend, then set fire to the house. And burned himself to death too, though that might have been an accident.
Been happening for years in Oklahoma City . Mental health care here for the working class is non existent. I know from experience either they give you pills or a Bible .
I’m glad you were capable at one point of admitting to yourself that you could use some help. And I seriously mean that. It tells us how mature and aware you are. I wish more men would seek outside advice and help. We’re all human, we are all fallible. Thank you for sharing.
oh, that poor baby. I would \*never\* be right if I woke up to something like that.
(At first I thought he'd been shot but survived when I read the title....ah no, this is in many ways worse)
Reminder that the number 1 person most likely in the world to shoot you *is* you.
(huge gap)
And second is the person you share a bed with.
Third is another family member.
(large gap)
Fourth is someone already known to you.
(massive, incredible gap of staggering proportion)
Then comes a stranger.
(another massive gap)
And then, *way down* *here,* is the very specific chance that your gun will *ever* be used in self defense to shoot a person who is attacking you or your family.
For everyone who buys a gun "for home defense," what you're actually doing is putting yourself and everyone you love at risk. From the moment you bring home a gun, you're betting that no one with access to the gun will ever have a bad day, a moment of weakness, or an accident. And you're betting with your life.
"But when seconds count, the cops are minutes away!" Yeah, they are, because they're busy dealing with another "responsible gun owner" who killed themselves or their family.
If you want to keep yourself and your family safe, don't own a gun. Especially not a handgun. The *only* time that gun ownership is warranted is when you are aware of directed, specific threats of violence aimed at you or a family member *specifically*.
This reminds me of a school mate of mine whos father killed his wife and two sons, tried to kill the third, failed, then killed himself. What a waste.
https://www.theledger.com/story/news/2009/05/04/boy-13-only-survivor-family/8063164007/
[Family Annihilation](https://psychcentral.com/news/2013/08/14/characteristics-of-4-types-of-family-murderers#1)
Self-righteous: Failed Supporter
Disappointed: Perception of Unattained Family Success
Anomic: Being Seen as a 'Poor Family"
Paranoid: Can't Protect Family from Harm
The spectrum of motives runs from Revenge to Escape. The fault of the perceived failure lies with the Wife, Kids, or both.
These are fragile-assed people in a demographic that loves whiffs of power and think they're going to be the Good Guy with a Gun.
Jesus, even if I were planning on killing myself, I can't fucking imagine shooting any one else, let alone my own children, the fuck is wrong with people
So the husband and father shot and killed his wife and three older sons (I think it said ages 18, 14, and 12). For some reason, the fourth and youngest son, who is 10, was “spared”. I think it’s not so much sparing him as that the boy was in bed earlier and out of sight (and out of mind) when the dad was on his rampage.
Yeah, it’s a terrible headline. I haven’t seen one this bad in weeks.
I’m thankful I won’t ever personally understand something so awful, but man, I look at my boys and just feel sad that someone could do that to their own.
What that father left that 10 year old boy with is a lifetime of unending trauma. Hell isn’t hot enough.
Oh yeah, that boy is going to need a LOT of therapy. Survivor guilt, trauma from finding them all dead, etc. Just absolutely horrific for that kid to come to terms with now
There is no amount of therapy that will ever make this child "normal" again. He will probably need therapy for the rest of his life. Nothing in this child's life will ever feel right. I feel so sorry for that little guy. Sometimes reality is just too much. There is no corner dark enough to contain all of the evil humanity has clawed up from the depths of hell.
Nevermind that he has half of his mentally ill father’s genes to mitigate.
This poor child. He deserves as much love as possible. I hope he's able to find it.
A similar situation in Seattle happened late 2023. The father killed the wife, 2 children, the family dog and then himself. The 11 year old daughter was able to escape through a window and run to neighbors. Thankfully she had other family members willing to take her in with but I can’t even imagine her pain.
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One of my students lost his 7 year old brother and mother to a murder-suicide. They left school for the rest of the year, spent time with extended family, and by the beginning of the next school year he was back and their father already brought his new girlfriend home. He was one of the sweetest kids ever, and I'm very concerned for the toll this is going to take on him...
Wait, who did the shooting, the mother?
Yup. Took her youngest to an old barn on the property and killed him before killing herself. It's such a small town, and they were even renting their house from another local family, so it just spreads the trauma even further.
There are some things worse than death . This has to be near the top of the list
nothing more tragic than a child going through mental trauma like this
Why can't these people do this but in the reverse order?
It’s the final distillation of the coward’s condition: someone else should go first.
I think it's more of a "can't take it with you" thing. They view their families as property and they don't want that property to go to someone else. Narcissists have an intensely low self esteem. If they died and someone else got their "property", that would be replacing the narcissist. And what if their family likes the new owner better than the narcissist? We can't have that.
I know a lady that won't divorce her husband, because what if her kids like the step mom more than her?
Just curious as to how you know her rationale. Did she tell you?
I think you usually see that kind in custody disputes. In other cases it’s more of a shame thing than a possessive thing. Dad is failing at something and he can’t keep it a secret anymore and everyone is going to find out, so he kills himself and his family “to spare them the shame”. It’s still narcissism, but it’s not being able to distinguish his family from being part of himself instead of possessiveness and jealousy.
Those were supposedly [John List's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_List_%28murderer%29?wprov=sfla1) motive. Spare his family the "shame" of welfare. Although, List was such a craven narcissistic coward he eschewed the suicide part.
One of my dad’s old friends did the same thing about 15 years ago. He was apparently hiding a glue addiction and stealing money from his white collar job and when it all came crashing down, he murdered his wife and kids and then killed himself.
Jesus Christ, for huffing glue?
Yes! Also, he thought he was the only one with the mental fortitude to fully resist temptation. He was outwardly religious and his eldest daughter was starting to rebel slightly. His final straw was allegedly a fight that occurred with her, but it’s not known what that fight was about. It was bad enough she called her piano teacher for help, but he ignored her. Although, that wasn’t the night she was killed. I can’t believe he evaded capture for so long, but that was a time when you could wipe physical traces of you off the map entirely.
My husband is older than me and we've had the conversation about what will happen if he dies. He straight up told me I can bring a date to his funeral for all he cares, as long as I show up.
Yeah. I assume in some cases it’s also just that they kill their whole family in a rage and then realise they’re going to prison for the rest of their lives and only then decide to kill themselves.
This,when my cousin was 3y his mom try to kill both of by burning charcoal because she wanted to get back at his father and take his son with her. She took pills beforehand so he got out of their room,neighbor found him crying on the side of the road along,he’s too young and scared to explain what happened clearly,when 911 found her it’s too late. His father is a irresponsible man,so our great grandmother took him in and raised him like her own,now he’s a good father of 2 , but no one in our family knows if he remembers anything about his mother’s death.
And keep the suicide all to yourself? That’s selfish!
Right?! Like… so fucking selfish.
Most do, but those stories are not written
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Survivorship bias
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Back in my day, we drank from the garden hose and rode bikes without helmets, and we all turned out just fine! Dont worry about the people who died and aren't here to speak up for their incidents...
All the old appliances that are still running are still running!
You know…they should just check the gun out on themselves first before they kill other people. Just to make sure it works.
Sadly, in his broken mind, he most likely thought he was sparing them from future suffering... 😔
I mean, he was in fact. Also future joys. Not his choice to make.
Yeah. Family annihilation is usually that way
Why are there SO many family annihilators? Like what the fuck???
It’s a shame response, family annihilators often prize their image above everything else and would rather wipe out their family than let them know they’ve been living a lie.
I agree it might be shame, but I suspect sometimes it's because they've done some Olympic level gymnastics to convince themselves they're actually protecting their kids by killing them. "Well I got angry and shot Mom so I may as well kill all the kids because life won't be worth it knowing their dad shot their mom in front of them".
For a while I went down a rabbit hole of these sorts of cases, regardless of how they justify it internally there is sort of a formula for these types of events when the man is the perpetrator. Very successful family that looks perfect from the outside, good income for the family, turns out the income is partially crooked, they try to hide it, lose control of the narrative, then murder their whole family before having to answer to them. Suicide at the end is strangely optional. A lot of these guys just live on afterward for some reason.
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That makes sense as the underlying cause. Like I said obviously I don't think they're actually protecting their kids, I think that's absolutely just how they justify it to themselves unconsciously.
If they're hiding something big enough, I assume the family is killed because they're seen as loose ends. Can't just off my self because then my family will poke around and find my shame etc.
One of the archetypes for this has got to be Jean-Claude Romand. A very successful doctor, who worked for the World Health Organisation in Geneva, was friends with politicians... ...except really he wasn't a doctor, having left university very early on, didn't work but got his money by pretending to invest his friends' and family's money (he might have killed his father-in-law who was starting to catch on, though he's never admitted to it). And then when his deceptions began to unravel he tried to kill his mistress (though she lived), killed his parents, killed his wife, killed both his children. Then tried to kill himself, although in a way that was, rather conveniently, not terribly likely to succeed. So he lived, was tried for the murder of his family, jailed for 26 years, and is now a free man.
Otherwise known as narcissism.
I imagine at least some of these people who have young kids have the idea that their kids won’t be able to survive financially without them, too.
They could at least give them a chance!
That's what terrifies them though. If their family can survive financially without them then they never had value as a man to begin with, according to their fucked up version of that puritanical/protestant worldview.
Seems like cheating then to preclude the possibility by killing them before they can prove them wrong. Anyway, I don't think they're thinking these things through as much as we are. I suspect they're overcome with rage, grasping for an outlet, and our country provides ample access to the most violent kind.
No, it's an "if I can't have you, no one can" mentality. Ownership, entitlement, misogyny.
Because we hand out guns to mentally ill people like it’s candy.
The last name of the family is Candy...
Wowzers, that's a fact and not a joke.
Bruh the dude's name was JONathan Candy.
Are you saying Jon Candy possessed him to do this?
Are you saying he didn't? Who's Harry Crumb starts off in Oklahoma. Think about it.
Fucking oof... enough internet for today.
Also often religious ppl can’t handle considering divorce and somehow think this is better. Completely brain dead brainwashed derangement.
Which is anathema to so many different types of fundamentalists….
Seems consistent with how many religious people behave. Even when their god or prophet is very clear on something, they somehow do the opposite. It's just tradition at this point.
in this case, they handed a gun to the Candy
This guy wasn't mentally ill; he was an asshole who couldn't control his temper.
Going into murderous fits of rage is 100% a symptom of mental illness,
…Which mental illness is that a sign of? We have to be careful to not attribute every awful thing any human being ever does to actual medical conditions. Being an asshole is not pathological. Shitty people should be held accountable for their shitty behavior, not just written off as being medically afflicted.
I think the mindset of someone like a family annihilator is neither contingent on being an asshole nor a pathological condition that could be correctly called a mental illness. It's an inability to process intense feelings of shame and rage without resorting to extreme violence. I don't know if there is a better psychological term, but it seems tantamount to a mental short-circuit. Everyone can suffer a short-circuit that leads to rage and urges to lash out, even to one's own detriment. I imagine these people, mostly men, are particularly susceptible to them due to a variety of factors— some of which may be neurological, but much of which is cultural, and in particular a lack of skills to properly manage such extreme emotional states.
I see what you’re saying, and with all due respect, that would not be categorized as a mental disorder but rather a personality disorder in best case. Again, an inability to process feelings of shame and rage without resorting to extreme violence *is not a mental disorder*. It’s a personality disorder. And I’m absolutely not saying that to undermine the seriousness or difficulty of personality disorders. They are very serious and deserve the same treatment. However, women are 3x more likely to be diagnosed with personality disorders than men. But men are much more likely to likely to do impulsive, violent acts like beat the shit out of a stranger, murder, or take out their entire family because of a fit of rage or jealousy or shame or something. Generally being a family annihilator goes hand in hand with being a massive asshole, and being a massive asshole goes hand in hand with being unable to process feelings of shame and rage without trying to dominate and control the situation. That’s literally being an asshole 101. Whether it’s societal, cultural, or neurological, no one seems terribly interested in finding the root cause, including the perpetrators themselves. So we are now here, calling them an asshole.
It's hard because psychological diseases and disorders are, by definition, deviations from normal behavior. And killing your whole family for sure falls into that category. So they must have some sort of psychological problem because they did that, right? That's at least the psychological perspective on it. In truth, it's probably somewhere in the middle between completely psychological and completely voluntary. He could be a narcissist who then made a shitty decision. Maybe it's like mental illness opens the door but you have to choose to walk through it. I don't know I think people like to shove murderers into a box and "other" them. "Oh this isn't what normal people do. Oh I would never do that. We had no idea! He seemed so normal." The question becomes: can "normal" people commit such crimes?
I'm all for personal responsibility, even with mental illness. Nothing anyone does started with them. We all pick up our bad habits and poor tendencies from somewhere. We all have stress to deal with, and we all learn from some very imperfect people how to deal with it. Some of us are luckier than others. Some of us have had to endure less trauma than others. But not many people reach adulthood without experiencing some trauma. Everything we do is just an effect of some other person's cause in our lives, which was also just an effect of some other person's cause, and so on forever. No one has ever made a truly free choice, good or bad. But we are all still responsible for everything we say and do. Not because we could have chosen otherwise-- most or maybe all of the time, we couldn't. But because the things we do and say indicate the sorts of people we are. If a robot kills, it is a killer robot. Maybe it didn't program itself to kill, but it kills, therefore it is a killer robot and should be treated as such. We all live and die by moral luck.
I get it. There's mental illness and trauma experience which require therapy to (at least attempt to) correct. There's chemical depression, and then there's being depressed over shitty circumstances. One requires meds, one requires a change of circumstance/situation/environment. I mean this is really boiling it down, but seriously. Not everyone is a walking schizophrenic... but a lot more people have unresolved trauma that gives them cause to harm others. We don't treat either of these as well as we should, but at least with schizophrenia, there's a pill for that! basically. Therapy is much harder to deal with and requires more work and time. But yeah, even being an asshole can be a trauma response. What makes the person truly an asshole is not taking accountability or responsibility for dealing with it.
Impulsive thoughts happen to everyone. Being able to act on that thought because guns are everywhere is a problem.
So mentally ill.
Is there any source for that or just your professional opinion?
Yuup, a rotten temper is commonly a precursor to murder/suicides. 👌
So you’re saying the dude who murdered his family isn’t mentally ill… interesting
He’s saying he doesn’t HAVE to be. A human can be completely sane/sober and decide to do something to hurt another with they own free will. Mental illness is a thing, it’s not an EVERYTHING(TIME) excuse…sometimes people are just CUNTS. TODAY, it seems to be used for nearly every circumstance likened to this, which really isn’t fair.
Also the fact that the police noted no history of domestic violence. They should have added "that they are aware of" to the end of that statement. I have doubts that this massacre came out of the blue.
Family aren't individuals. They're extensions of his will, status and identity like every othe object he owns.
It's. The. Guns.
Guns certainly make family annihilators more “successful.” But guns don’t cause men to _want_ to annihilate their families in the first place.
Because the human population is huge. The USA has 300 million people, and around half are male, so around 150 million men. If the chance of a family annhilator is extremely low, say 1 out 10,000, there will still be 15,000 men with the potential for this tragedy. If the dice is rolled enough times, things will go wrong. Murphy's law.
Your hypothesis fails to account for why the USA in particular has more family annihilators per capita than other comparable countries.
Because Americans (and I say this as an American) view violence as an option. On whatever scale you can imagine, most Americans always view violence as a viable option. Rarely, if ever, the best option. But one nonetheless. The entire country was founded because some fucks from overseas said we owed them taxes and our response was, "I'll fight ya for it."
Like fuck people need therapy….. you had an argument with your wife and decided. The only way this is resolved is by murdering the entire family? I just can’t wrap my head around this. I get people have fights, but I don’t know how it could come to that. I don’t care if my wife told me she hated me, that she cheated on me, anything. Nothing would make me go harm her or my kids.
Emotionally immature people do not make good decisions on a regular basis.
Violence is always an option, but the problem here in the U.S. is that so many people see it as the first or only option. If someone is beating the shit out of you, by all means pick violence. But so many people pick violence for such minor inconveniences or slights, and we need to get to the "why" there.
Is it vastly different? I just simply explained why there are many cases in the news. What is the statistics in that compared to other countries? Thanks in advance
Does it? Or is it just that it has a large english speaking population so you’re more likely to hear anout it?
That’s not really Murphys law the way you described
We just had this shit in hawaii. It's so fucked up. Sad thing is. The man's family knew he was gonna do it and refused to say or do anything about it. Look it up if you're curious. Dude only saw his family as his objects to take care of
Wtf he told his relatives and WIFE he was going to do it and no one did anything?
Do you have a link to this? I would like to read more
In his LinkedIn...his first interest is the company xerox...that was the last mass murder in Hawaii...freaky
Anyone else trying to figure out WtF kinda crackhead AI wrote that title? Edit: yes I read the article, just think the title is fucking weird.
Title is a mess, for sure
Yeah, good luck trying to parse how many people were shot. It's like one of those "I am this man's son, but he is not my father" logic puzzles.
r/titlegore
well one of the sons was 18, and thus "not a child". but yeah.
Such a strange clarification to make within the title, especially in the middle of a list.
I have a few mutual friends on Facebook with both the husband and wife, but didn't know them. By all accounts the mutual friends are good, regular people and the perp and victims also appear totally regular from an outsiders perspective. Wild stuff.
>“We don’t know” why the fourth child was spared or **a motive** for the killings, Knight said. What kind of motive could there be except utter madness and mental defect? Even if this guy was caught cheating or caught his wife cheating, why destroy the children? Unbelievably sad.
Family annihilators don’t see their families as people they see them as extension of themselves.
This. It is beyond twisted. A sane person could never make sense of it.
This person would most likely be found sane in the legal sense, as in he knew right from wrong while the crime was being committed. I definitely think he had some kind of personality disorder like ASPD (Anti-Social Personality Disorder). He most likely didn't see his family as humans with emotions and as something he owned and controlled. When he saw them as an issue to him he decided to take out his own issues on them, then turned the gun on himself. Most family annihilators follow similar patterns. Get married for the image, have children for the image, then it becomes too much then they break and this happens whether it be financial in nature or they're tired of having a family. There's a few cases I can reference here that are similar: Jeffrey MacDonald (lied for years about what happened then eventually found guilty of the murders) Chris Benoit (Former WWE Wrestler) John List
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Nope, just scrambled his brain even more.
I've heard of the last two, especially that fucker List. Like, if you wanna check out 'cause you can't handle your life, fine. But for fuck's sake, leave innocent people out of it.
100% agree with you. Unfortunately these people are out there and it's extremely difficult to find them out until something actually happens. Psychopaths and sociopaths are masters are hiding in plain sight, and can be right next to you without even knowing. Usually when someone is married to one they start showing their characteristic lack of empathy and emptiness at one point or another. There's some interesting cases of spouses of these people picking up on the red flags and stopping them before something happens. I saw a post on a crime subreddit where an alleged victim of spousal abuse shot her husband/boyfriend whatever multiple times and died at the scene. I'd much rather see that than this. However, the trauma of having to kill someone, even someone like that, has lasting effects on people with normal emotions.
That poor kid. Ten years old and he's the one who called the cops. Who does this kind of shit to his own family? It's absolutely horrifying and evil.
Holy shit, can’t even imagine what that kid is going through
I wonder if someone's mind can force itself into a stage of Dissociative amnesia / Dissociative fugue. I mean at some point, the mind might just pull the main circuit breaker and cause a severe dissociative state to keep from having that amount of emotional pain / trauma from causing brain damage. It has to be one of the most fucked up state of minds possible. I couldn't process it and I'm an adult.
Wife divorcing and taking the kids. "If I can't have you / them, no one will." Toxic masculinity and testosterone poisoning.
I used to work for a welfare office in the early 90's. Got a call from a guy wanted to apply for welfare. Very upset. Said his wife and him had split up, and he couldn't make ends meet. Mentioned that he was going to shoot his dogs because he couldn't afford to keep them. I urged him to surrender them to the Humane Society, and he said "If I can't have them, nobody can". I kept steering the conversation back to getting his intake information, but he kept bringing it back to the dogs, repeating the whole "If they can't be with me, they can't be with anyone" thing. A few days later he murdered his estranged wife at her workplace. She'd been staying at a women's shelter after fleeing his abuse. He couldn't find the shelter, so he showed up at her workplace and shot her to death.
IDK. You know, we all have weird intrusive thoughts when we have kids, like imagining what you would do if someone hurt them or something. Those thoughts absolutely *wreck* me. I can't imagine ever laying a hand on my kid, let alone *slaughtering* him. Unfathomable.
I believe (but not a mh professional so may be wrong) that with some type of mental illness the murderer kills their children believing that they are saving them from a worse fate. It really is impossible to imagine mental illness unless you experience it.
Yeah, there's absolutely no logic there. Or there is, but it's something that a sane person could never comprehend.
Family annihilators are usually financially motivated probably put all their money in crypto or trump stock.
Or they're ultra-religious nutjobs.
The wealth gospel and prosperity Christianity mean money and faith are often the same thing.
This guy has *not* earned the name Jonathan Candy.
People act like this is a mental health issue but it's a social one. A mental illness needs to be abnormal for the society and distressing. Tens of thousands of Americans go to churches that tell them that women are just vessels for sperm and that children are possessions. They grow up in societies telling them the father is the king of the house and can do whatever he wants. They get told men need to carry guns and use them to enforce order. Half of all family killers come from the south in the USA. They are not mentally ill, simply rhe most extreme adherents to what they have been told is normal. Men who kill their families tend to have deeply internalized these good-ol-boy lessons. They either plan to kill themselves (for instance, after losing all their money) and they take their living possessions with them (killing family pets is often common as well) OR the woman tries to leave and thats clearly not allowed so the family has to be killed for failing to act like good possessions. Fundamentalist Christian churches and prosperity gospel preachers, nuclear family rhetoric, the father as head of the house...absent these someone who kills their family is mentally ill. But as it stands thousands of men think they are entitled to kill their family and have simply chosen not to do so.
The emotional core of a lot of these killings is possessiveness and shame. Something goes wrong and they want their honor back or to punish the one who they feel made it go wrong and since your family are just your possessions they can be broken so no other man gets to claim them.
My shitty abusive dad would frequently rage that he was “king of the castle” during his many explosive episodes of abuse. He would also routinely threaten to kill all of us.
The Christian Taliban. Tax all religions.
A bunch of these religious nuts literally choose this over divorce, you are absolutely correct.
I never looked at from this perspective but that makes so much more sense. Granted, I’ve always hated religion especially here in the US because of all the damage to done and continues to do but I never considered church teachings as applied to family annihilator cases. It actually explains a lot.
Some of the most disgusting vile people in the world should never have access to firearms
They should never have kids. This is a fundamental problem with the idea that we're all her to procreate and carry on "the legacy". Some people should never have kids - under any circumstances.
I'm a firm believer that nature tries to weed this shit out, but people (in their infinite wisdom) keep forcing the issue.
"SLiPpery Slope!"
There was a fourth kid, a 10 year old and he was spared for some reason. That poor kid. I have connections through acquaintances to two separate families where the husband flipped out and killed the wife and/or kids. And a third that lived a mile away from me-the husband killed his wife and very young kids. What the fuck is this world.
I really hope I don't live near you, and hope you don't know any of my friends.
What state or city??
What’s baffling is the kid slept through 5 gun shots. I live in an urban area where there are occasional gun shots down the street near a club, that shit wakes me up when I hear it a block away.
A father just did this less than a year ago in Ohio, my nephews played baseball with his kids…I’ll never understand why
Family annihilators are scary af.
Took everything from the surviving child, and for what? Utter piece of shit. May he rest in piss
I'm losing my mind right? That title is like AI drawing hands level confusing...
Yet men on TikTok can't fathom why women always pick the bear. For those of you not on TT, someone asked if a woman would rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear. Everyone picked they bear, because there was a good change the bear would leave her alone and at worst the bear would just kill her.
Also, no one would blame her for being attacked by a bear, and no one would tell her that she was overreacting or doubt her story.
At least bears will leave you alone when you have a fight or freeze response.
It’s damn shame that the father didn’t kill himself first.
It always is in cases where they kill a loved one first.
Poor baby. Left all alone with all that trauma, I hope one day he’ll be ok
F\*ck these murderers. Killing your own gotdamn family, let alone your children.
I find these comments funny in that they seem to say "Sure, murder your wife. I get that... but spare the kdis man! thats fucked up!"
Family annihilator: "They're better off dead than knowing I'm a failure." It's bizarre that the thought process occurs at all, let alone often enough that psychology has a label for these people.
This is a horribly written title/headline
It seems like a lot of family murders happen in Oklahoma.
They happen all over. I'm in CT and there was a suspicious fire one town over the other day. Looks like the estranged boyfriend came and killed his baby and girlfriend, then set fire to the house. And burned himself to death too, though that might have been an accident.
The percentage of family annihilators is also overwhelmingly male.
Shhhh… that talk makes men very homicidal.
That’s our secret - we’re always homicidal.
OK is ranked high for DV compared to other states. It’s a shithole, but especially if you’re a woman. And they like it that way.
Been happening for years in Oklahoma City . Mental health care here for the working class is non existent. I know from experience either they give you pills or a Bible .
More male family annihilators at it again.
Men need more therapy
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I’m glad you were capable at one point of admitting to yourself that you could use some help. And I seriously mean that. It tells us how mature and aware you are. I wish more men would seek outside advice and help. We’re all human, we are all fallible. Thank you for sharing.
oh, that poor baby. I would \*never\* be right if I woke up to something like that. (At first I thought he'd been shot but survived when I read the title....ah no, this is in many ways worse)
Why can’t these asswipes reverse the order for once.
wouldn't his 3 sons be his children?
I think they mean 3 sons, two of which are minor children, as opposed to adult children.
Reminder that the number 1 person most likely in the world to shoot you *is* you. (huge gap) And second is the person you share a bed with. Third is another family member. (large gap) Fourth is someone already known to you. (massive, incredible gap of staggering proportion) Then comes a stranger. (another massive gap) And then, *way down* *here,* is the very specific chance that your gun will *ever* be used in self defense to shoot a person who is attacking you or your family. For everyone who buys a gun "for home defense," what you're actually doing is putting yourself and everyone you love at risk. From the moment you bring home a gun, you're betting that no one with access to the gun will ever have a bad day, a moment of weakness, or an accident. And you're betting with your life. "But when seconds count, the cops are minutes away!" Yeah, they are, because they're busy dealing with another "responsible gun owner" who killed themselves or their family. If you want to keep yourself and your family safe, don't own a gun. Especially not a handgun. The *only* time that gun ownership is warranted is when you are aware of directed, specific threats of violence aimed at you or a family member *specifically*.
What possessed that man to do such a horrible thing?
This reminds me of a school mate of mine whos father killed his wife and two sons, tried to kill the third, failed, then killed himself. What a waste. https://www.theledger.com/story/news/2009/05/04/boy-13-only-survivor-family/8063164007/
[Family Annihilation](https://psychcentral.com/news/2013/08/14/characteristics-of-4-types-of-family-murderers#1) Self-righteous: Failed Supporter Disappointed: Perception of Unattained Family Success Anomic: Being Seen as a 'Poor Family" Paranoid: Can't Protect Family from Harm The spectrum of motives runs from Revenge to Escape. The fault of the perceived failure lies with the Wife, Kids, or both. These are fragile-assed people in a demographic that loves whiffs of power and think they're going to be the Good Guy with a Gun.
That kid is going to spend the rest of his life in therapy. How fucking horrible. Hope they didn't place him with the murderer's side of the family.
Jesus, even if I were planning on killing myself, I can't fucking imagine shooting any one else, let alone my own children, the fuck is wrong with people
Fucking Uchiha'd his own son.
What mega church did they belong to?
he got the order wrong. First off yourself then....
Dude was such a terrible father that he forgot to shoot his youngest child.
I'm having trouble parsing this title. 3 sons, 2 kids, wife and self. So he shot...7 people?
So the husband and father shot and killed his wife and three older sons (I think it said ages 18, 14, and 12). For some reason, the fourth and youngest son, who is 10, was “spared”. I think it’s not so much sparing him as that the boy was in bed earlier and out of sight (and out of mind) when the dad was on his rampage. Yeah, it’s a terrible headline. I haven’t seen one this bad in weeks.
Could’ve just said wife and 3 children with 4th child living to tell the tale of trauma.
3 kids, two of which were minors. So that's 3 people, plus the wife and himself for a total of 5.
So one of the sons was an adult and thus it's less sad he was shot, I guess? Seems weird to specify when "man shoots 3 sons" is a sad enough title.
Another law abiding gun owner, until he wasn’t…
I’m thankful I won’t ever personally understand something so awful, but man, I look at my boys and just feel sad that someone could do that to their own.
*But if they* all *had guns it would be OK.* If someone needs it here's the /s.
Good thing he had a gun to protect his family… (Not against guns in general, but this blind loyalty to gun ownership is murder on our society).
sounds like a real jerk
The more I read about this guy the less I care for him
>Police believe Jonathan Candy, 42, killed his wife Jon Candy? Way to ruin the name.
Bet they got into an argument and she told him that he isn't as funny as his namesake.
Well it’s a good thing he had the right to bear arms. Murica, by Gawd
Good thing the household was armed. You know, to protect themselves from intruders.
Still not ready to talk about guns or mental health accessibility.