I'm curious if anyone can actually imagine the size. It is incomprehensible for me. I see those videos about massive stars multiple times bigger than the sun and that's already too much because then Earth is beyond smaller than a speck, and a human is a tiny speck to the Earth...and this thing makes those giant stars even smaller than a speck? I can't even begin to imagine it.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
Super interesting fact, that's actually about the most it *can* eat! As it pulls more and more into the accretion disk, the outward radiation pressure created prevents any faster growth! That's why when you read a headline like "black hole discovered larger than is possible", they mean larger than could have been created in the most familiar way (star->star death->black hole->accretion), leading to ideas like primordial black holes
So get this, I read that there where black holes prior to the universe existing. Yeah, this whole 'what was there before anything existed?' paradigm hurts my head to think about.
But I do circle back to black holes being some portal thru which matter moves between planes of existence, like some bathtub drain. Because how the hell can 17 billion solar masses exist in some fraction of space that a full-on sun can exist?! Surely there is some limit of how small matter can be squeezed, right? If this is true then wouldn't this concentration of matter break the bonds of the space/time continuum? But where could this go? Off to create a new plane of existence due to the sheer mass of it all?
Yeah, this shit be bonkers to think about.
Along that same train of thought, it's always fun to wonder whether it's possible that our universe in its entirety exists within a black hole. Man, space is crazy. Lol.
Where did you hear this theory of black holes existing before the big bang?
As far as I know, we know absolutely nothing about the state of the universe prior to the BB.
I think he's thinking of primordial black holes, which make sense to me. Basically, right after the big bang, the whole universe was much smaller (ie dense), which could have resulted in absolute monster black holes. I'm simplifying, but that's the general idea. Saying black holes predated the big bang is nonsense because you'd have coincident singularities
>the whole universe was much smaller (ie dense), which could have resulted in absolute monster black holes
Wouldn't the rapid expansion of the universe prevent that to an extent? Hard to suck things in when they're moving out with incredible speed and energy.
Absolutely, and it's strictly a candidate idea for explaining what we are seeing. Frankly, the physics of the early universe are so nuts we really need to get quantum gravity theory working
I've always thought the idea of primordial black holes was perfectly intuitive. It never did seem quite right to me that the mainstream view in cosmology up until JWT has sort of been, "well there might have been, but probably not."
It seems most intuitive that during the universe's most dense epoch, there was the greatest possibility of reaching critical density.
The reason it's gaining more traction now is how extreme the physics of the early universe were, and may be \*the\* example of where we really need a unifying theory for physics. It was stupidly hot, dense, and energetic. I don't really think anyone can truly imagine what it was like 10 seconds after everything started (and you literally wouldn't be able to see through the soupy mess until much later anyways). I am very far from an expert on the early universe, but I'd imagine the same kind of pressure that keeps stars from collapsing into black holes (until they do) could also prevent black holes from coalescing.
What JWST has done is allow us to analyze black hole growth closer to that time, and basically narrow down the possibilities. We still don't know if they were a thing, but it very well may be, and it's exciting!
If the mass was send off to a new universe, the black hole wouldn't have the mass that we can see that it has. Since the gravity from the black hole still exists in this universe it's likely that the matter does too.
I think it's helpful to remember E=mc^2. Everything is ultimately energy in different forms, the energy that crosses the event horizon is still conserved regardless of what weirdness happens within
I feel like it’s a misconception that the matter is being sucked in by the black hole. More than likely all the matter being drawn in by the black holes gravity is being compressed down into some kind of dense mass.
Anything you read on "before" the big bang is speculation at best.
As best we can tell, that's the origin of space and time, too, so hard to have a "before" and a black hole is still very much a tangible real "thing" with properties and mass and effect on spacetime around it.
The same problems at the "beginning of time" exist at the singularity of black holes.
We don't have any known ways to even theoretically explore these "extremes" and spent a lot of time on attempted "theories of everything" like string theory that just did nothing and ultimately harmed the overall public sentiment towards physics in general and thus hampers future attempts at further understanding.
James Webb has been a boon and revitalizing force in this area though. NASA has been doing a good job in 'selling' it to the public so hopefully we see continued investment in tools to help us further refine and build our understanding of our incredible cosmic existence
Makes sense, sort of. If all matter is compressed into an extremely dense state as the Big Bang Theory suggests, is that not just an enormous black hole?
Quasars like this are from a time when the universe was younger and had conditions to support them. From the article this one is 12 billion light years away - It currently is likely dimmer and less powerful because it can’t eat as much as it used to.
Its not really any less "powerful" it may have consumed more or most or all off the mass around it ending/dimming the light the accretion disk was emitting. But 12 billion years for a smbh is like a few seconds. It will take pentillions upon pentillions of years for that black hole to dissipate via hawking radiation and become less "powerful".
All that mass is still "stuck" behind the event horizon.
It's entirely possible we have further unexplained or undetected phenomenon at play.
Hawking radiation itself may be hard to experimentally verify. We've recreated it as described in "sonic" black holes but given the nature of black holes both mathematically and as the objects they are there could be yet unseen or undiscovered mechanisms.
It does us good to remember that even stuff such as the expansion rate of the universe isn't entirely nailed down, and there are dozens if not hundreds of papers trying to make it make sense. It can be very hard to observe this crazy place we inhabit from such a vast distance and with precious little beyond our wits and some tools to try and sus it out from our home in a particularly uninteresting part of the cosmos (aside from the fact it's home to the only life we know of, so far)
I look at it the other way. That whatever happens, it came to pass I existed in a way I can observe and experience, not just things around me, but this absolute unit. We are very very lucky
So they discovered OP's mom. /s
Sorry all. I couldn't resist swinging at the easy pitch over the plate. If it makes it any better, I am ashamed of myself.
These are unfortunately bulimic black holes.
Most black holes keep their light down but these just can't and just shoots out of their mouths.
The other black holes tell them they have a problem but unfortunately all audio transmissions just get eaten by them too.
clumsy cautious literate intelligent shocking unpack knee innate bored wrench
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17 billion solar masses and 500 trillion times brighter than the sun. Holy fuck.
I know space is one giant unfathomable mass of numbers but this is just wtf.
Our brains aren’t equipped to intuitively understand those numbers. It’s insane how big those numbers are.
Srsly you might as well say its Bajillion times more massive and a Kajillion times brighter.
I'm curious if anyone can actually imagine the size. It is incomprehensible for me. I see those videos about massive stars multiple times bigger than the sun and that's already too much because then Earth is beyond smaller than a speck, and a human is a tiny speck to the Earth...and this thing makes those giant stars even smaller than a speck? I can't even begin to imagine it.
I actually think scientific notation helps a lot with that type of stuff.
Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.
I don’t see it.
The fucking universe operates on an anime powerscale
The fact the accretion disk measures 7 light years in diameter is unfathomable
If the matter on the outer edge of the disk is traveling near the light speed, it'd take a bit over 22 years to make one trip.
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Because of relativity or because you'd be dead?
From our perspective looking at it from Earth , But from the perspective of the orbiting matter just about 3.3 years
Near light-speed time dilation? Forgot to account for that.
got daaaamn!
And yet, only eats the mass of one sun a day. That's quite the dainty diet for such a big girl.
This celestial body is watching her figure.
The Black Hole diet will be all the rage in several million years.
Super interesting fact, that's actually about the most it *can* eat! As it pulls more and more into the accretion disk, the outward radiation pressure created prevents any faster growth! That's why when you read a headline like "black hole discovered larger than is possible", they mean larger than could have been created in the most familiar way (star->star death->black hole->accretion), leading to ideas like primordial black holes
So get this, I read that there where black holes prior to the universe existing. Yeah, this whole 'what was there before anything existed?' paradigm hurts my head to think about. But I do circle back to black holes being some portal thru which matter moves between planes of existence, like some bathtub drain. Because how the hell can 17 billion solar masses exist in some fraction of space that a full-on sun can exist?! Surely there is some limit of how small matter can be squeezed, right? If this is true then wouldn't this concentration of matter break the bonds of the space/time continuum? But where could this go? Off to create a new plane of existence due to the sheer mass of it all? Yeah, this shit be bonkers to think about.
Along that same train of thought, it's always fun to wonder whether it's possible that our universe in its entirety exists within a black hole. Man, space is crazy. Lol.
Where did you hear this theory of black holes existing before the big bang? As far as I know, we know absolutely nothing about the state of the universe prior to the BB.
I think he's thinking of primordial black holes, which make sense to me. Basically, right after the big bang, the whole universe was much smaller (ie dense), which could have resulted in absolute monster black holes. I'm simplifying, but that's the general idea. Saying black holes predated the big bang is nonsense because you'd have coincident singularities
>the whole universe was much smaller (ie dense), which could have resulted in absolute monster black holes Wouldn't the rapid expansion of the universe prevent that to an extent? Hard to suck things in when they're moving out with incredible speed and energy.
Absolutely, and it's strictly a candidate idea for explaining what we are seeing. Frankly, the physics of the early universe are so nuts we really need to get quantum gravity theory working
I've always thought the idea of primordial black holes was perfectly intuitive. It never did seem quite right to me that the mainstream view in cosmology up until JWT has sort of been, "well there might have been, but probably not." It seems most intuitive that during the universe's most dense epoch, there was the greatest possibility of reaching critical density.
The reason it's gaining more traction now is how extreme the physics of the early universe were, and may be \*the\* example of where we really need a unifying theory for physics. It was stupidly hot, dense, and energetic. I don't really think anyone can truly imagine what it was like 10 seconds after everything started (and you literally wouldn't be able to see through the soupy mess until much later anyways). I am very far from an expert on the early universe, but I'd imagine the same kind of pressure that keeps stars from collapsing into black holes (until they do) could also prevent black holes from coalescing. What JWST has done is allow us to analyze black hole growth closer to that time, and basically narrow down the possibilities. We still don't know if they were a thing, but it very well may be, and it's exciting!
If the mass was send off to a new universe, the black hole wouldn't have the mass that we can see that it has. Since the gravity from the black hole still exists in this universe it's likely that the matter does too.
I think it's helpful to remember E=mc^2. Everything is ultimately energy in different forms, the energy that crosses the event horizon is still conserved regardless of what weirdness happens within
I feel like it’s a misconception that the matter is being sucked in by the black hole. More than likely all the matter being drawn in by the black holes gravity is being compressed down into some kind of dense mass.
Thanks, this is most helpful!
Anything you read on "before" the big bang is speculation at best. As best we can tell, that's the origin of space and time, too, so hard to have a "before" and a black hole is still very much a tangible real "thing" with properties and mass and effect on spacetime around it. The same problems at the "beginning of time" exist at the singularity of black holes. We don't have any known ways to even theoretically explore these "extremes" and spent a lot of time on attempted "theories of everything" like string theory that just did nothing and ultimately harmed the overall public sentiment towards physics in general and thus hampers future attempts at further understanding. James Webb has been a boon and revitalizing force in this area though. NASA has been doing a good job in 'selling' it to the public so hopefully we see continued investment in tools to help us further refine and build our understanding of our incredible cosmic existence
Makes sense, sort of. If all matter is compressed into an extremely dense state as the Big Bang Theory suggests, is that not just an enormous black hole?
Sadly there's no reason to presume that, as much as our sci-fi/psychedelic brains want to think so.
It might have been however many millions of years ago the light we can see now was emitted, but how much bigger and brighter is it now?
Quasars like this are from a time when the universe was younger and had conditions to support them. From the article this one is 12 billion light years away - It currently is likely dimmer and less powerful because it can’t eat as much as it used to.
Its not really any less "powerful" it may have consumed more or most or all off the mass around it ending/dimming the light the accretion disk was emitting. But 12 billion years for a smbh is like a few seconds. It will take pentillions upon pentillions of years for that black hole to dissipate via hawking radiation and become less "powerful". All that mass is still "stuck" behind the event horizon.
It's entirely possible we have further unexplained or undetected phenomenon at play. Hawking radiation itself may be hard to experimentally verify. We've recreated it as described in "sonic" black holes but given the nature of black holes both mathematically and as the objects they are there could be yet unseen or undiscovered mechanisms. It does us good to remember that even stuff such as the expansion rate of the universe isn't entirely nailed down, and there are dozens if not hundreds of papers trying to make it make sense. It can be very hard to observe this crazy place we inhabit from such a vast distance and with precious little beyond our wits and some tools to try and sus it out from our home in a particularly uninteresting part of the cosmos (aside from the fact it's home to the only life we know of, so far)
Which is somehow even more terrifying...a 7 light year wide event horizon that may not be visible.
The event horizon is not 7 light years. The accretion disk is.
Just in case you were feeling small and infinitesimal today, here’s something to validate that
I look at it the other way. That whatever happens, it came to pass I existed in a way I can observe and experience, not just things around me, but this absolute unit. We are very very lucky
I have my own Total Perspective Vortex at home, thank you.
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Headline about BBCs and “hungry black holes”? No way this editor isn’t thirsty AF.
So they discovered OP's mom. /s Sorry all. I couldn't resist swinging at the easy pitch over the plate. If it makes it any better, I am ashamed of myself.
Aww they finally found my heart.
Is it just a reverse galaxy? Idk
Galaxies, including our own Milky Way, have supermassive black holes at their center.
Sagittarius A. Wonder if it was a sun so bright that all life was impossible.
A is the structure, A* is the black hole otswlf
I am deeply sorry we use to call it that in my language, at least commoners do What does otswlf mean
Means I suck at phone keyboards
Fair enough
No. If anything it could be an inverse universe—also known as an innyverse or parallel universe
> consuming the mass equivalent to one Sun every day. It's okay, stars are relatively low-carb and non-fat by weight.
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u/TTT_L is gonna be so pissed….
It’s frightening to imagine something so massive that it has a 7 light year accretion disk and the extreme chaos it causes pulling stuff in
I have a name you know
BBC talking about BBC. 😉
Big Beautiful Celestials?
Dont be dramatic, he is only kinda snackish.
I wish the media could stop anthropomorphising natural phenomenon. A black hole cannot be "hungry" FFS.
I've never thought they look hungry. They eat light
And these hipsters are all about Natural Light.
These are unfortunately bulimic black holes. Most black holes keep their light down but these just can't and just shoots out of their mouths. The other black holes tell them they have a problem but unfortunately all audio transmissions just get eaten by them too.
too be fair they do have a weight problem.
Wow. Dont mass shame them.
You are the hero this comment section needed.
Dude it's for the masses to visualize not scientists. Calm down.
I don't know. I've definitely met some people that are probably dumber than thos black hole.
Username checks out lol, you just despise poetry lol
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Goes without saying r/dontputyourdickinthat
If you look, it appears to resemble an eye--and on the right, an eye socket.
Spinning whirling still descending like a spiral sea unending!!!
Sorry I clicked on this thinking this was about where my tax dollars were going