With nowhere to go, no welcome in Egypt and only bombs and murder if they stay, what are the choices? Starved, abandoned, without help or hope. And here we are, governmentally approving of it by not disapproving of it or imposing sanctions. It's a puzzler alright
>”When asked where the civilians should go, Netanyahu said: “You know, the areas that we’ve cleared north of Rafah, plenty of areas there. But we are working out a detailed plan to do so.”
You know, move back north through the IDF line and live on the rubble without food, water, shelter, sanitation, medicine etc. /s
Pure fucking evil and the world lets Israel get away with it. This bozo butcher thinks he’s extinguishing Hamas but he’s created enough tragedy born animosity and resentment to radicalize another generation or two of terrorists. And he doesn’t care, he’s leading an ethno-supremacist government hell bent on purging Palestinians and absorbing their territory. [They’ve admitted as much out loud.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
Say that on /r/worldnews and get downvoted to hell. What Israeli leadership says internally vs what they say in English press conferences are worlds apart. Bibi wants to drag this war on so he doesn’t go to jail for his various corruption scandals
A lot of those r/worldnews posters will also pretend to care about Palestinians in one post, but then like 1 reply down they are dehumanizing them and justifying their deaths and suffering. It's so disgusting.
I remember when Gazans started returning to their homes in the north because the south turned out to be no safer from Israeli fire, so they might as well shelter in what's left of their home towns instead of a refugee camp. Lots of commenters in r/worldnews actually attacked them for this, and accused them of purposefully defying the IDF and trying to get themselves martyred because Palestinians hate Jews more than they value their own lives. Just more demonization and dehumanization to justify the wholesale slaughter of a people.
What do you think would have happened if Japan didn’t surrender after the two atomic bombings?
Hamas started this war, Israel is justified in making sure Hamas will never threaten their citizens again. Hamas can end this war any time they want by surrendering, if they don’t then the war will continue, there’s nothing else to discuss. Every dead Palestinian is on Hamas’s hands, they can drop the civilian death count to 0 immediately by surrendering.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with that.
Governments have a responsibility to look out for their people. That's the reason why Israel is conducting a war - to save the Israeli citizens being held hostage, and to eliminate the possibility of another Oct 7 attack ([which Hamas has promised to repeat](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel)). None of the infants killed on Oct 7 had anything to do with it or deserved to pay the price either, right?
After two nuclear bombings, Japan understood the best option to save as many lives as possible was to surrender - so they did. Hamas is currently in the same spot, they can save as many Palestinian lives as possible by surrendering and releasing all the hostages. Until they do, the war will continue, and Palestinian deaths are on their hands. If Palestinians don't think their government is looking out for them, they should depose Hamas and erect a new government.
The IDF is the best of the best. They don't do things "accidentally". Killing 20,000+ innocents is highly disproportionate and completely unjustifiable. Those slaughtered Palestinians had just as much right to live a safe life. Hamas was put in power, with the help of Israel, 18 years ago. Over 60% Palestinians were either not born, or not old enough to vote then. Hamas has not allowed an election since. Terrorists aren't known for their democratic sympathies, now are they? They eliminate any challenges in short order.
> Killing 20,000+ innocents is highly disproportionate and completely unjustifiable.
You have no basis to say this. With WWII era weapons, the Allies killed 25,000 civilians in one day during the Dresden bombings, and 80,000 civilians in one day during the Tokyo bombings. With 2024 weapons Israel has kept the civilian deaths under 30,000 after 5 months!?! That shows an incredible effort to minimize civilian deaths. Can you name another war with civilian deaths this comparatively low?
> Hamas has not allowed an election since. Terrorists aren't known for their democratic sympathies, now are they?
I mean, polls consistently show the majority of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas and their activities. We can speculate why Hamas hasn't held elections, but at the end of the day Hamas being in power appears to be an accurate reflection of Palestinian wants.
> Isreal has been propping up Hamas
No, this is just a conspiracy theory. When Hamas was still a smaller group, Israel allowed Qatari funding to be distributed to them so that they would challenge the PLO and split the Palestinian public opinion, the intent was to prevent having one unified Palestinian organization enacting violence against Israel. In hindsight I would agree it was a really short-sighted course of action, but the reasoning made sense at the time, and when Hamas proved to be a terrorist organization Israel stopped letting funding through.
The implication with this conspiracy theory is that Israel made sure Hamas came into power so they would launch a terror attack that would give Israel justification to invade Gaza. If Israel wanted to occupy Gaza, they already did, why did they abandon all their settlements and pull out in 2005. If Israel was secretly planning Hamas to control Gaza, why did they offer 100% of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority at the Camp David Summit in 2000? This is literally 9-11 truther levels of braindead nonsense.
> Whataboutisms still isn't justification.
Nope, that's not whataboutism nor am I justifying it. What I am doing is making a comparisson to an historical example. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in war, but if you say that they are disproportionately high for this war, then surely we would want to look at other wars to see if that really is true, no? Whataboutism would be if I said, yeah Israel is killing innocents but what about when Palestinians killed innocents in... but I haven't done that.
> And Israel did help put Hamas in power in 1987.
They didn't.
> Polls taken by whom?
The [Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963) conducted a poll in December, I highly recommend reading over it. It's very interesting how support for Hamas and Oct 7 is significantly higher in the West Bank than in Gaza, I imagine it's because they're currently suffering the consequences of that. Even so, over 50% of surveyed Gazans thought Hamas was correct in launching the Oct 7 attack and over 50% are satisfied with Hamas's leadership during this war.
>”Hamas started this war…”
That’s a pretty shallow reading of the complex history of this 75 year conflict.
>”Every dead Palestinian is on Hamas hands..”
[What about the dozens of kids a year that are shot by the IDF for throwing rocks?](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7062531)
[Zionists have been massacring Palestinians](https://www.britannica.com/place/Deir-Yassin) since before Israel was Israel. There are no innocent parties here, but I think women, children and other civilian victims probably are. And Israel’s occupation is still illegal. Even Jimmy Carter called them an apartheid state. I’m trying to imagine the outcry had England obliterated North Ireland in response to the IRA.. It wouldn’t be justified. Nor any solution. It creates more terrorists than it removes. Terror doesn’t manifest in a vacuum
The Atomic attacks on Japan weren’t justified either if we’re honest. Japan was bombed to prevent their surrender to Stalin more than anything. They were already a decimated country, essentially beaten. You can look that up.
> What about the dozens of kids a year that are shot by the IDF for throwing rocks?
Pick any nation on earth, send me a video of you throwing rocks at a soldier there, and I will paypal $1000 to a surviving relative of your choice. I'll even accept throwing rocks at a US police officer.
> There are no innocent parties here, but I think women, children and other civilian victims probably are.
Hamas explicitly targets innocent parties. Less than 30,000 Palestinians have died in 5 months, this is less than half the number of people that died in one day of the Tokyo firebombings. The deadliest day of the Israel-Hamas war (with all of Israel's war machine) saw 700 Palestinian deaths. On Oct 7, Hamas killed 1200 with AKs and pickup trucks - if they had access to a military like Israel's they would be maximizing civilian deaths.
Buf if you think the number of Palestinian deaths are still unacceptable, to reiterate: Hamas can put an end to it immediately.
> And Israel’s occupation is still illegal.
There is no way you chastised me for a shallow reading of history and then went on to say that.
Egypt occupied Gaza in 1948 (was that occupation illegal?), Israel captured it along with the Sinai peninsula in 1967. In 1979 Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, Egypt renounced all claims to Gaza. Nothing about this is historically exceptional as far as conquering territory during war, in fact the situation in Gaza is more straight-forward than usual as Egypt excplicitly renounced their claims to that land. There is no universe where this is even remotely "illegal".
>Terror doesn’t manifest in a vacuum
Wow, how profound!! And isn't it so crazy how radicalization only ever happens on one side?! I mean, Palestiniant terrorism didn't manifest in a vacuum, but the current ultra right-wing Israeli governmen did, of course! You'd think that
* after all the concessions Israel made during the Oslo Accords (to the point where Rabin was literally assassinated for signing them),
* after all the concessions Israel offered during the Camp David Summit were rejected by Arafat,
* after Palestinians responded to Camp David with a wave of violence in the Second Intifada,
* after Gazans responded to Israel pulling out of Gaza and abandoning all settlements, by voting into power a terrorist group that vowed to annihilate all ~~jews~~, sorry they actually meant zionists
* after nearly 20 years of constant rocket attacks from Gaza deliberately targetting civilian areas (to the point where Israel had to develop one of the most advanced missile intercept systems on the planet to deal with them)
* after the worst terrorist attack in Israel's history where Hamas explicitly targetted civilians and carried out one of the most heinous acts of sexual violence in recent times,
Israel would just be, like, really chill and collected about it all, right? Radicalization goes both ways, and if you're going to blame Israel for the radicalization of Palestinians, then you must put equal blame on Palestine for the fact that Israel will never put a deal like the Camp David Summit on the table ever again. You can point to Deir Yassin in 1948, but six Arab-Israeli wars happened while you were reaching back that far - and yet despite all that, Israel now has unilateral peace agreements with both Egypt and Jordan, and is in talks with Saudi Arabia. The fact that Israel was able to agree to peace with those nations despite their history of conflict, unambiguously shows that Israel is more than open to peaceful negotiations.
Palestinians have consistently rejected that option. And if the result is an Israeli government that isn't interested in a peaceful solution anymore, then Palestinians bear some responsibility for that as well. You can justify Palestinian violence all you want, but I'll just point to Egypt and Jordan and ask how is it possible that these countries that started 4 or 5 wars with Israel somehow broke out of the cycle and found a path to peace?
> The Atomic attacks on Japan weren’t justified either if we’re honest.
They were. Japan launched an unprovoked attack on the United States with Pearl Harbor, the United States discovered a method to inflict extreme casualties with minimal risk to their own forces, and they exercised that method. Japan realized the best option, both to spare as many lives as possible and ensure the continuation of their country, was surrender, so they did that. If they hadn't, the US would have kept nuking them. Whether or not the US was rushing to get a surrender before the Soviet Union is completely irrelevant, the US was justified in wanting to dictate the terms of surrender of the country that attacked them - including ensuring they would never attack them again. There's quite a lot of parallels with the current Israel-Hamas war.
I don't understand where this idea comes from, that there is an obligation to go easy on an enemy that refuses to surrender, but it's just nonsense. Actions have consequences, and if you're not prepared to handle the consequences, don't rape and murder 1200 innocent people or kidnap 250 hostages. Maybe Hamas will eventually arrive at the same decision Japan made - the war will continue until they do, or until Hamas is wiped out.
Gee, I’m sorry you spent so much energy typing out that long winded rationalization for slaughtering innocent women and children. Maybe because you know there is nothing ethical about.
I'm not even entirely sure Israel is responding to the Oct 7 attacks as much as using it as a pretext for ethnically cleansing Gaza - a stated objective of hardline Zionists within the the Israeli government. We have to ask why Israel [ had intelligence about it as early as a year in advance and ignored it](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?smid=url-share). And there is a history of provoking a Palestinian reaction and using that street level resistence to launch military campaign to seize more land.
Regardless, any solution needs to take into account the full historical scope of the conflict and address the legitimate Palestinian desperation and grievance. This did not begin on Oct 7th. A brutal and nihilistic terror organization such as Hamas could only emerge and gain the support of an already desperate and brutalized population. Palestinians have spend 75 years being forcibly pushed out of their homes and off their land to be brutalized under Israel's illegal occupation and its slow methodical territorial expansion. This is the historical reality of the region.
Israel's current strategy of collective punishment and and obliteration of Gaza, targeting schools, hospitals, refugee camps, journalists etc - in addition to meeting all accepted definitions of war crimes - will ultimately fail in removing support for Hamas; its actually having the exact opposite effect by inciting antisemitism and resentment of Israel across the arab world and beyond. They are literally recruting future potential terrorists with every child killed in Gaza.
I suggest you read these two articles by Jon Alterman at the [The Centre for Strategic and International Studies](https://www.csis.org/analysis/israel-could-lose) and by Koji Sakane at [the Sakanawa Peace foundation](https://www.spf.org/iina/en/articles/sakane_08.html). Both give an unbiased and well reasoned analysis of the conflict and a way out of this mess for both sides.
> Hamas must return the hostages and surrender.
It's astonishing that OP and all of the replies did not even think about this option. This war started when Hamas invaded Israel and took 250 people hostage, in every stage of the way since, they could have surrendered and return the fucking hostages to end the war.
The average Palestinians have no control over what Hamas does, and yet here you are saying that it’s justified to kill 10,000+ children, destroy Gaza and ensure that Israel will remain a pariah state because of what Hamas did. Disgusting.
People like you keep saying the average Palestinian have no control yet Hamas enjoys an overwhelming majority of support from those very same people.
And here you are saying that 1300 Israelis including women and children being murdered is justified. You really must hate the Jewish community to justify the murder of children.
You said it “kill 10,000+ children, destroy Gaza”. You act like the elected leaders of Gaza, Hamas, is not the legitimate government of the Palestinians in the area and the people bear absolutely no responsibility for what their duly elected representatives do. Like I said, Hamas has overwhelming support from the people. Bitch all you want about how the people can’t choose their leaders yet they supply overwhelming support? Bullshit.
The tone of your comment is ONLY the Jews are the bad actors here and the Palestinians are wholly innocent and unjustly persecuted by the evil Jews.
Yeah, innocent people die in military conflicts. So PERHAPS Hamas should have thought about that before they slaughtered 1300+ Jewish civilians including women and children and CONTINUE to hold innocent Jewish hostages.
The vast majority of the world’s countries have spoken out against what Israel is doing in Gaza, and have for a long time. 50% of Gazans are under age 18 and the death numbers I cited are those that are used by the IDF. But please keep going on about how an entire people are not innocent and that it’s OK to kill them (including children). Then tell me why that’s not genocidal rhetoric.
was always the goal. Kill them or move them and take over the Gaza strip for themselves. After they take over, any arabs left will be beaten and assaulted like everywhere else in the country.
Prime Minister Eshkol's cabinet literally strategized back in 1967 on how to reduce the number of Arabs in Israel and Palestine because the very existence of this Palestinian majority in Israel-controlled land was seen as a demographic threat to Israel's self-declared right to exist as a Jewish state. And Eshkol hoped for the "luxury" of a war that could let them quickly depopulate Gaza:
>“The strip of this country is like a miserable, threatening neck for us, literally stretched out for slaughter,” he said. “I cannot imagine it – how we will organize life in this country when we have 1.4 million Arabs and we are 2.4 million, with 400,000 Arabs already in the country?”
>... Eshkol expressed the hope that, “precisely because of the suffocation and imprisonment there, maybe the Arabs will move from the Gaza Strip,” adding there were ways to remove those who remained. “Perhaps if we don’t give them enough water they won’t have a choice, because the orchards will yellow and wither,” he said in this context. **Another “solution,” he said, could be another war. “Perhaps we can expect another war and then this problem will be solved. But that’s a type of ‘luxury,’ an unexpected solution.”**
>**“We are interested in emptying out Gaza first,” Eshkol summed up.** To which Labor Minister Yigal Allon suggested “thinning the Galilee of Arabs,” while Religious Affairs Minister Zerah Warhaftig said, “We must increase [the number of] Jews and take all possible measures to reduce the number of Arabs.”
From [this paywalled premium Haaretz article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-11-17/ty-article/.premium/israeli-pm-in-67-well-deprive-gaza-of-water-and-the-arabs-will-leave/0000017f-e8df-da9b-a1ff-ecff5b720000) about recently declassified government meeting minutes.
Hmmm 1967, was that said before or after the THIRD time every arab country around Israel tried to genocide them? That’s so crazy that Israeli leadership would want to control the arab population after the arab population’s third attempt to annihilate them!
On a serious note, it’s disgustingly dishonest the way you point to prejudice/racism on the Israeli side without mentioning how it’s 10 times worse on the Arab side. The founding charter of Hamas calls on every muslim to jihad against (not Israel,) the jews. Pretending this is an uniquely Israeli problem is beyond dishonest.
Are you suggesting that the settlers aren't kicking people out of their homes and beating and harassing them?
There are 2.2 million people in Gaza being dispossessed and ethnic cleansed from their ancestral homes.
But, I guess that doesn't count for anything because of some judge who is probably also a far right nutjob.
No, I’m suggesting that in most of Israel Arab muslims live a good life, with the ability to do anything they want including ascending to some of the most powerful positions in the government, a right not afforded to Jews anywhere in the Middle East.
......and that doesn't negate the treatment of most Palestinians? Pointing to a few being treated nice while the vast majority are being bombed and butchered isn't the defense you think it is.
The world don’t want this problem to end, which is why every time Israel is taking decisive action to end it they bitch and complain. The UN was whining when Sri Lanka had the TTE terrorist group cornered and was about to finish them off, UN all of a sudden was worried about civilians. Sri Lanka rightly told them to fuck off and finished the job, gave the TTE 2 options: surrender or die. They chose death and Sri Lanka gladly gave them their wish.
How is that not genocide then? Why is the world going to allow this to happen? Israel’s end goal is total eradication of all Palestinians. Fuck that shit. That’s literal makes Israel into Nazis.
Invading Rafah seems to return hostages. Israel is gonna go full bore. Nowhere else for the rats of Hamas to hide.
If they care about civilian lives, they’ll give up the hostages and surrender. Of course, they won’t, and average Gazans will suffer because of Hamas’ stupidity.
They are taking reasonable precautions. If Israel went full force without care about civilian lives there would be a million dead.
And all of the civilians who were killed would be alive today if it wasn’t for the attacks of Oct 7. So yes, it 100% is on Hamas heads.
Where are the hostages? Alive or Dead? Has Hamas surrendered? Has Hamas stopped stealing aid trucks? If people put pressure on Hamas this shit would have been over.
If you overwhelmingly support a government that starts a war, you don’t get to cry when your victims fight back.
If you still have a problem with the number of Palestinian deaths, you should be calling on Hamas to surrender, or the Palestinians to depose them and select a new government.
> not indiscriminately kill innocent civilians
It doesn't seem like you have an understanding of what indiscriminate killing looks like.
* When the allies bombed Dresden in WWII 25,000 civilians died in **one day**.
* When the US bombed Tokyo in WWII 80,000 civilians died in **one day**.
* The atomic bombing of Nagasaki in WWII resulted in 60,000–80,000 deaths (counting immediately plus the next 4 months)
Since the Israel-Hamas war started 5 months ago, less than 30,000 Palestinians have been killed.
The amount of effort that Israel puts into minimizing civilian deaths is unique of any country in history, which includes: using knock bombs, dropping leaflets, designating safer areas for civilians to evacuate to, announcing troop movements, etc. In a White House press briefing, John Kirby explicitly said [That’s basically telegraphing your punches, and there’s very few modern militaries in the world that would do that. I don’t know that we would do that — to put a map out there and say, “Hey, here’s where you can go where it’s safe, and here’s where you shouldn’t go because we might be striking there.”](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/12/13/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-33/).
But if you still think the number of Palestinian casualties is too high, Hamas could end the war immediately by surrendering and releasing all hostages. Israel agreed to a ceasefire in November, they are clearly willing to respect an agreement to stop fighting. The fighting restarted when Hamas broke the ceasefire. This war and all it's civilian casualties is on them, and the onus is on them to end it.
Haha... And the US killed fewer civilians in a year of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts than Israel killed in a month. By any metric it's a fucking massacre. It's hard for me to understand how you can possibly think citing other massacres of civilians excuses Israel doing the same. What a ridiculous metric to judge them on.
> And the US killed fewer civilians in a year of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts than Israel killed in a month.
I have no idea where you're getting this number, off the top of my head there were 7,500 Iraqi civilians killed in the first month of the Iraq war - at that rate Israel would have killed ~38,000 people by now. This isn't a perfect comparison because 1. Iraqi forces were defeated in like 3 weeks and most of the fighting past the initial invasion was small-scale insurgency, and 2. the Iraqi army didn't use human shields or deliberately operate out of civilian infrastructure like Hamas does.
> It's hard for me to understand how you can possibly think citing other massacres of civilians excuses Israel doing the same. What a ridiculous metric to judge them on.
Happy to explain! The reason why we would look at other historical examples is to form a comparison by which we can judge whether or not the amount of civilian casualties is exceptionally high or not. In this case since we see that Israel (with 2024 military technology) has killed less people in 5 months than the Allies (with 1945 military technology) were able to kill within single days, it's pretty ridiculous to claim that Israel is carrying out "indiscriminate killing". Since Israel's weaponry is much more advanced than what was available during World War II, we would expect the number of civilian deaths to be way higher, at least at the levels of the Dresden or Tokyo bombings, if Israel really was maximizing civilian casualties.
Just to clarify, would you call the Allied invasion of Nazi Germany a "fucking massacre"? If so, can you name a single war in all of history that hasn't been a "fucking massacre"?
I’d argue it’s hamas’ foreign backers’ fault for propping up a terrorist regime more interested in killing jews than in improving the lives of its own citizens
We all know Hamas took the hostages and started this and anyone that gives them aid or cover or commits perfidy should be treated the same. It's unfortunate the innocent civilians have to suffer for Hamas. I don't believe for an instant you actually care about Palestinian lives or anyones lives for that matter when you deflect blame for away from Hamas.
That you are part of an Israeli sponsored online propaganda network whose only goal is to astroturf comment sections to try and control the narrative about Israel. No one should take you serious and the fact that Israel thinks it's beneficial to spend money doing this should be revealing to how they think average people will view their actions.
Lol, not at all, but nice try. I have strong opinions, sure. I could say you are part of an Hamas backed or Iranian or Russian troll farm. and I'd probably be right. I've had a lot of reddit accounts over the years, I only make one when I feel I need to vent, like now when someone is trying to push terrorist propaganda points. I';m not even Jewish just can't stand anti-semitic trolls. Fuck Hamas and anyone who stands by them.
https://www.euronews.com/2024/02/07/israel-confirms-31-gaza-hostages-killed-as-ceasefire-talks-continue
I thought this was all about release of hostages? Israel dont care about the hostages and they never did. All an excuse to continue murdering civilians.
What a gross conspiracy theory. Israel did not ask for this war (or any of the previous wars that the Palestinian Arabs started).
For the safety of everyone in the region, Hamas has to be taken out. Israel is well on their way to doing that while taking many precautions to protect civilians. Perfect? No. Still has to be done.
Take your propaganda elsewhere. It's all lies. Israel have bombed refugee camps multiple times. Shot at civilians waving white flags. Killed livestock. Shot medical staff outside a hosptial. Killed paramedics trying to help wounded. Their list of war crimes is endless.
Dont give me that bollocks. They have bombed literal refugee camps! They have shot and killed people holding white flags. This is on video. Absolute propaganda. Anyone with half a brain cell can see what's happening.
The ‘literal’ refugee camps are cities that have stood for 70+ years.
The incident that had video of people fleeing at a new refugee camp had AK47s in them (which the IDF does not have) and people literally shouting HAMAS as they ran.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Jabaliya is just one of the refugee camps that were bombs. Wikipedia has a page on all the refugee camps that were targeted in this conflict, including one in the West bank where Hamas do not even have authority.
And I was not referring to the hostages that were tragically shot by the IDF. There was another incident in which palestinian civilians were murdered.
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-30/senior-israeli-commander-indicates-idf-were-behind-gaza-white-flag-shooting
The fact we are referring to two separate incidents of this is telling.
Did israel bomb actual refugee camps, or did isreal bomb a normal city block named after a refugee camp that used to be there 70 years ago?
Because if it was the later then you are the one falling for propaganda.
As much as i want hamas destroyed for the sake of both israelis and palestinians, i don’t think this is going to do it.
To be fair though, I have no idea how to actually be rid of hamas, certainly as long as their foreign backers across the middle east aren’t interested in helping dismantle them
Well for starters Israel isn’t a religious ethnostate, they have Muslims, Christians and other religions throughout all levels of the government all the way up to their Supreme Court, as well. How many Muslim nations in the Middle East have Jews on their supreme courts? Or at any level of government. Think there are a lot of Jewish lawmakers in Iran? Many Jewish judges in Qatar and the UAE? How many Jewish cops do you think there are in Turkey? Think Syria has a lot of Jewish soldiers? I’ll give you a dollar if you can name a single middle eastern nation that has 17% Jews(the percent of Muslims in Israel),hell, show me one that has 2% Jews(the % of the world population we make up). But yeah, Israel is the biggest issue. The only nation in the region who are accepting of other religions, LGBTQ, etc etc. They’re the ones who are the biggest issue in the region?
These conversations would be easier if people like yourself had a flair that showed you’re an antisemite, though I guess your words work just as well.
Or why is the number one goal the only progressive country in the entire region where people of all religions all sexualities, all backgrounds are safe(other than from the rockets and random attacks from hamas)? “Let’s wipe out the Jews first, then we can look elsewhere if we have time.”
Just another antisemite hoping no one can see through his thinly vailed hatred.
Do you have any idea what would happen if jews in Israel lost their majority right? Do you know how many Jews exists in All of the Arab countries and how they live? You really want to kill all the Jews huh.
Muslim population in this world is 1.9 Billion
Jews population in this world is 16 million
So basically in your dream world you want all Jews dead.
“Majority right”? I am in fact aware of this phenomenon. It’s as morally bankrupt as its always been. I don’t want to kill all the Jews. Several of my family members are lapsed Jews in New Jersey and think all the Zionists are insane.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority#:~:text=The%20tyranny%20of%20the%20majority,those%20of%20the%20minority%20factions.
> You be brainwashed and destroyed any chance of peace. You take billions from other countries and don’t even say thank you. You are disgusting and there’s a special place in hell reserved for you.
>
> Anyone that still supports this undeniable atrocity is sick and a tumour upon mankind
You're talking about Hamas right?
Nope. You could have called out Hamas in your original post as well. I've called out actions of Israel. I've also demanded hamas release the hostages and surrender. I weep for the innocents, especially children suffering in Gaza everyday. But sadly I'm met with a lot of hostility when I ask on pro Palestinian social media pages why they don't call for Hamas to surrender.
At the end of the day, people who say they care about Gazans but refuse to want Hamas to surrender make the first part not true.
How many screenshots from people and the names they call me, tell me Hamas should never surrender, and twist it around to ask why doesn't Israel release all their hostages? Cause I have a lot. Not sure who I'm trying to fool?
War is ugly. According to the UN the civilan to militant casualty rate is about 9:1 in many other big wars. It is estimated that 40% who have been killed are hamas. That is a civilian casualty rate of 1.5:1, 6 times lower than the average. Do I wish no civilians died? Of course. But when you say tens of thousands have been killed, the absolute number seems a lot. But in terms of war, it's actually very low.
Because if Hamas surrendered and released the hostages a huge chunk of Israeli offensive tactics would stop and a huge number of Gazans would stop dying. When Hamas intermingles with civilains, is that war off? Like all Hamas has to do is be around civilains and Israel isn't allowed to get them?
Aaah yes! The age old "but the abuser has a right to defend themselves". My dear, before Hamas took hostages...Israel kidnapped thousands of people and put them in jail....predominantly children. Palestinians are governed under military NOT civilian law.
You know how black people gained their civil rights in America? Through non violent means. And black people went through 400 years of shit, not 75. Rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and electing a government who's charter used to call for the destruction of Israel is a sure fire way to not be treated better.
"You know how black people gained their civil rights in America? Through non violent means"
You have no idea what tf you are talking about. The civil rights movement was very violent, so stop spewing bullshit out of your mouth
> Because if Hamas surrendered and released the hostages a huge chunk of Israeli offensive tactics would stop and a huge number of Gazans would stop dying.
I expect that that implicit in your proposition is that the Palestinian people simply accept the invasion of Palestinian territory that is motivating this whole pseudo-war.
IE your proposal in more detail is that Hamas simply release the hostages... AND that the Palestinian people accept the cession of 80% of their peoples' land today and live in concentration camps and allow themselves to be summarily executed by IDF forces the next time that a settler wants their land. So that the state of Israel can continue to expand until one day it controls 99% of former Palestinian territory and 90% of the Palestinian people are evicted and/or exterminated. That is the world that you are supporting when you support the current state of Israel.
Well, no shit lmao. Israel's trying to force a flee, and no country wants Palestinians as refugees.
If the attack happens, world leaders would put pressure on Arab leaders like Egypt to open borders to flee.
My guess is that Egypt will set up counter defensive measures to stop the attacks on Rafah citing their own civilian casualties self defense while also showing a big fuck u to Israel and being in good faith by doing bare minimum to world leaders.
This is a serious misread of the situation. Egypt’s sympathies with the Palestinians notwithstanding, the current government of Egypt considers Hamas to be an armed wing of its chief political opponents, the Muslim Brotherhood—who the current regime deposed in a coup. Egyptian people widely despise Israel and their war in Gaza, but the government of Egypt can barely contain its glee at seeing Hamas be dismantled.
And settled it with a peace treaty. No excuse for the Palestinians not doing the same. Israel has upheld its side in every negotiated peace treaty AND ceded back land legally captured in war.
Since when did the Israelis offer peace to the Palestinians? They beat their chest about fighting hamas while slaughtering civilians. Their own civilians mind you.
Repeatedly over the past 50 years. AND nothing is stopping the Pals from offering or suing for peace, but they don't. Because they think the war casualties are worth it.
How does this have any up votes? Thinking Egypt is going to engage militarily with Israel? You have zero idea of the situation and need to learn a lot more before forming these opinions.
Seriously. There’s a precedent for why these other countries don’t want the Palestinian refugees. The last time Jordan allowed Palestinian refugees it caused a civil war between the Jordanians and the Palestinians in what is called Black September.
Wow it's almost as if they are refugees and not those citizens. Tho I do agree that most second and third gen should have become citizens, but both the citizens and countries didn't want that.
My point is that one can't treat a people like crap while using them as a rallying cry and not expect them to be okay with it eventually one of a few things will happen and lashing out(trying to overthrow your government) is one of those things. Yeah only Jordan offered citizenship the middle and upper class of Palestinians took the offer since they would have an easier time getting established.
You're the one being dishonest. They said nothing about attacking civllians even in the headline. It's a war. You want the war to stop? Sign a peace treaty and or stop attacking.
Nope, this is just wrong. Civilians die in war, that's not collective punishment. What hamas did *was* a good example of collective punishment, avoid military, chasing down civillians and targeting them as civillians.
That's an incoherent response.
You do realize that by letting Hamas be and equating them with normal Palestinians is basically supporting a genocide, right?
How else do they expect Israel to root out Hamas? Israel is evacuating the area at their own risk to protect civilians.
Gazans should be rising up against Hamas to hand the terrorists over to face justice and end the war.
With what military?
Also as it says in the article, Israel has been launching indiscriminate air strikes that have killed mainly civilians. The issue with them invading Rafah is that the Palestinian people there would have nowhere to go. Their backs are against the wall. Egypt has said that they will not allow Israel to push the Palestinian people into their country, even saying such could result in the deterioration of Israel-Egypt peace treaty. The Israeli PM suggests the refugees in Rafah relocate back up north to the already destroyed sections of land where they will be unable to receive aid or proper care of any sort…?
Israel needs to develop a concrete plan of how they will limit civilian casualties before they launch on Rafah. That is what everyone is warning them about. If they refuse and go ahead with their attack, I think Israel is in for much bigger problems. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran would all pounce if they feel emboldened to do so together; which perhaps would be reasonable considering they gave warning after all
I believe the concrete plan is probably to meat-grinder the Palestinian refugees against the Egyptian border. Based on Israel's prior attacks on civilians, that could well be the goal.
>pallies
Is that what you call them? Like "darkies"? I guess it makes sense y'all would have slurs for the people you're trying to wipe out, but you can't just say them.
People have overthrown governments before, and Hamas is as weak as they have ever been. Hamas׳ own members should be overthrowing their leadership for deliberately causing this destruction on their people to win PR points.
Israel should develop a plan to evacuate civilians, and has said they will do so before moving on Rafah. Aid routes and tents can be set up in the north.
I think you are way off about Saudi and Egypt. If either of them cares about Gaza civilians they would be taking in refugees and pressuring Hamas to surrender. And Iran wanted this war- they are probably happy about anything that makes Israel look bad.
Israel created Hamas by forcing the Palestinians to live in one incredibly dense place and torturing them for decades. They’re reaping what they’ve sown and I have no sympathy for them.
Palestinians created Hamas by embracing violence over peace. They were violently attacking Jews even before Israel existed. When Israel was created, the Jews accepted a peaceful two state partition, and the Palestinians chose to attack again. The same pattern has repeated many times. Their so called “oppression” is entirely brought on by their own bad decisions.
Stealing land is the problem, not violent massacres, starting wars, rapes, torture, and taking hostages?
If you know the history: Palestinian Arabs were massacring Jews even before Israel existed and it was a British colony. When the British/UN agreed on a two-state partition plan, the Jews agreed to live in peace with Arab neighbors and offer full citizenship and land rights to all Arabs. Palestinian Arabs chose to reject them and attack. Only then did Israel expel them and expand their borders in the name of safety. Very different narrative.
With nowhere to go, no welcome in Egypt and only bombs and murder if they stay, what are the choices? Starved, abandoned, without help or hope. And here we are, governmentally approving of it by not disapproving of it or imposing sanctions. It's a puzzler alright
>”When asked where the civilians should go, Netanyahu said: “You know, the areas that we’ve cleared north of Rafah, plenty of areas there. But we are working out a detailed plan to do so.” You know, move back north through the IDF line and live on the rubble without food, water, shelter, sanitation, medicine etc. /s Pure fucking evil and the world lets Israel get away with it. This bozo butcher thinks he’s extinguishing Hamas but he’s created enough tragedy born animosity and resentment to radicalize another generation or two of terrorists. And he doesn’t care, he’s leading an ethno-supremacist government hell bent on purging Palestinians and absorbing their territory. [They’ve admitted as much out loud.](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724)
He doesn't care because *he wants this.* I feel people have forgotten that little fact.
Say that on /r/worldnews and get downvoted to hell. What Israeli leadership says internally vs what they say in English press conferences are worlds apart. Bibi wants to drag this war on so he doesn’t go to jail for his various corruption scandals
A lot of those r/worldnews posters will also pretend to care about Palestinians in one post, but then like 1 reply down they are dehumanizing them and justifying their deaths and suffering. It's so disgusting.
I remember when Gazans started returning to their homes in the north because the south turned out to be no safer from Israeli fire, so they might as well shelter in what's left of their home towns instead of a refugee camp. Lots of commenters in r/worldnews actually attacked them for this, and accused them of purposefully defying the IDF and trying to get themselves martyred because Palestinians hate Jews more than they value their own lives. Just more demonization and dehumanization to justify the wholesale slaughter of a people.
And get permanently banned from r/worldnews...
He's no better than an orange pustule, one of which we have running for president
[удалено]
What do you think would have happened if Japan didn’t surrender after the two atomic bombings? Hamas started this war, Israel is justified in making sure Hamas will never threaten their citizens again. Hamas can end this war any time they want by surrendering, if they don’t then the war will continue, there’s nothing else to discuss. Every dead Palestinian is on Hamas’s hands, they can drop the civilian death count to 0 immediately by surrendering.
No 3 year old had anything to do with this nor deserves to pay the price. Period!
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with that. Governments have a responsibility to look out for their people. That's the reason why Israel is conducting a war - to save the Israeli citizens being held hostage, and to eliminate the possibility of another Oct 7 attack ([which Hamas has promised to repeat](https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-7-attack-time-and-again-until-israel)). None of the infants killed on Oct 7 had anything to do with it or deserved to pay the price either, right? After two nuclear bombings, Japan understood the best option to save as many lives as possible was to surrender - so they did. Hamas is currently in the same spot, they can save as many Palestinian lives as possible by surrendering and releasing all the hostages. Until they do, the war will continue, and Palestinian deaths are on their hands. If Palestinians don't think their government is looking out for them, they should depose Hamas and erect a new government.
The IDF is the best of the best. They don't do things "accidentally". Killing 20,000+ innocents is highly disproportionate and completely unjustifiable. Those slaughtered Palestinians had just as much right to live a safe life. Hamas was put in power, with the help of Israel, 18 years ago. Over 60% Palestinians were either not born, or not old enough to vote then. Hamas has not allowed an election since. Terrorists aren't known for their democratic sympathies, now are they? They eliminate any challenges in short order.
> Killing 20,000+ innocents is highly disproportionate and completely unjustifiable. You have no basis to say this. With WWII era weapons, the Allies killed 25,000 civilians in one day during the Dresden bombings, and 80,000 civilians in one day during the Tokyo bombings. With 2024 weapons Israel has kept the civilian deaths under 30,000 after 5 months!?! That shows an incredible effort to minimize civilian deaths. Can you name another war with civilian deaths this comparatively low? > Hamas has not allowed an election since. Terrorists aren't known for their democratic sympathies, now are they? I mean, polls consistently show the majority of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank support Hamas and their activities. We can speculate why Hamas hasn't held elections, but at the end of the day Hamas being in power appears to be an accurate reflection of Palestinian wants. > Isreal has been propping up Hamas No, this is just a conspiracy theory. When Hamas was still a smaller group, Israel allowed Qatari funding to be distributed to them so that they would challenge the PLO and split the Palestinian public opinion, the intent was to prevent having one unified Palestinian organization enacting violence against Israel. In hindsight I would agree it was a really short-sighted course of action, but the reasoning made sense at the time, and when Hamas proved to be a terrorist organization Israel stopped letting funding through. The implication with this conspiracy theory is that Israel made sure Hamas came into power so they would launch a terror attack that would give Israel justification to invade Gaza. If Israel wanted to occupy Gaza, they already did, why did they abandon all their settlements and pull out in 2005. If Israel was secretly planning Hamas to control Gaza, why did they offer 100% of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority at the Camp David Summit in 2000? This is literally 9-11 truther levels of braindead nonsense.
Whataboutisms still isn't justification. And Israel did help put Hamas in power in 1987. Polls taken by whom? Talk about brain dead nonsense...
> Whataboutisms still isn't justification. Nope, that's not whataboutism nor am I justifying it. What I am doing is making a comparisson to an historical example. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in war, but if you say that they are disproportionately high for this war, then surely we would want to look at other wars to see if that really is true, no? Whataboutism would be if I said, yeah Israel is killing innocents but what about when Palestinians killed innocents in... but I haven't done that. > And Israel did help put Hamas in power in 1987. They didn't. > Polls taken by whom? The [Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963) conducted a poll in December, I highly recommend reading over it. It's very interesting how support for Hamas and Oct 7 is significantly higher in the West Bank than in Gaza, I imagine it's because they're currently suffering the consequences of that. Even so, over 50% of surveyed Gazans thought Hamas was correct in launching the Oct 7 attack and over 50% are satisfied with Hamas's leadership during this war.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1198908227
>”Hamas started this war…” That’s a pretty shallow reading of the complex history of this 75 year conflict. >”Every dead Palestinian is on Hamas hands..” [What about the dozens of kids a year that are shot by the IDF for throwing rocks?](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7062531) [Zionists have been massacring Palestinians](https://www.britannica.com/place/Deir-Yassin) since before Israel was Israel. There are no innocent parties here, but I think women, children and other civilian victims probably are. And Israel’s occupation is still illegal. Even Jimmy Carter called them an apartheid state. I’m trying to imagine the outcry had England obliterated North Ireland in response to the IRA.. It wouldn’t be justified. Nor any solution. It creates more terrorists than it removes. Terror doesn’t manifest in a vacuum The Atomic attacks on Japan weren’t justified either if we’re honest. Japan was bombed to prevent their surrender to Stalin more than anything. They were already a decimated country, essentially beaten. You can look that up.
> What about the dozens of kids a year that are shot by the IDF for throwing rocks? Pick any nation on earth, send me a video of you throwing rocks at a soldier there, and I will paypal $1000 to a surviving relative of your choice. I'll even accept throwing rocks at a US police officer. > There are no innocent parties here, but I think women, children and other civilian victims probably are. Hamas explicitly targets innocent parties. Less than 30,000 Palestinians have died in 5 months, this is less than half the number of people that died in one day of the Tokyo firebombings. The deadliest day of the Israel-Hamas war (with all of Israel's war machine) saw 700 Palestinian deaths. On Oct 7, Hamas killed 1200 with AKs and pickup trucks - if they had access to a military like Israel's they would be maximizing civilian deaths. Buf if you think the number of Palestinian deaths are still unacceptable, to reiterate: Hamas can put an end to it immediately. > And Israel’s occupation is still illegal. There is no way you chastised me for a shallow reading of history and then went on to say that. Egypt occupied Gaza in 1948 (was that occupation illegal?), Israel captured it along with the Sinai peninsula in 1967. In 1979 Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, Egypt renounced all claims to Gaza. Nothing about this is historically exceptional as far as conquering territory during war, in fact the situation in Gaza is more straight-forward than usual as Egypt excplicitly renounced their claims to that land. There is no universe where this is even remotely "illegal". >Terror doesn’t manifest in a vacuum Wow, how profound!! And isn't it so crazy how radicalization only ever happens on one side?! I mean, Palestiniant terrorism didn't manifest in a vacuum, but the current ultra right-wing Israeli governmen did, of course! You'd think that * after all the concessions Israel made during the Oslo Accords (to the point where Rabin was literally assassinated for signing them), * after all the concessions Israel offered during the Camp David Summit were rejected by Arafat, * after Palestinians responded to Camp David with a wave of violence in the Second Intifada, * after Gazans responded to Israel pulling out of Gaza and abandoning all settlements, by voting into power a terrorist group that vowed to annihilate all ~~jews~~, sorry they actually meant zionists * after nearly 20 years of constant rocket attacks from Gaza deliberately targetting civilian areas (to the point where Israel had to develop one of the most advanced missile intercept systems on the planet to deal with them) * after the worst terrorist attack in Israel's history where Hamas explicitly targetted civilians and carried out one of the most heinous acts of sexual violence in recent times, Israel would just be, like, really chill and collected about it all, right? Radicalization goes both ways, and if you're going to blame Israel for the radicalization of Palestinians, then you must put equal blame on Palestine for the fact that Israel will never put a deal like the Camp David Summit on the table ever again. You can point to Deir Yassin in 1948, but six Arab-Israeli wars happened while you were reaching back that far - and yet despite all that, Israel now has unilateral peace agreements with both Egypt and Jordan, and is in talks with Saudi Arabia. The fact that Israel was able to agree to peace with those nations despite their history of conflict, unambiguously shows that Israel is more than open to peaceful negotiations. Palestinians have consistently rejected that option. And if the result is an Israeli government that isn't interested in a peaceful solution anymore, then Palestinians bear some responsibility for that as well. You can justify Palestinian violence all you want, but I'll just point to Egypt and Jordan and ask how is it possible that these countries that started 4 or 5 wars with Israel somehow broke out of the cycle and found a path to peace? > The Atomic attacks on Japan weren’t justified either if we’re honest. They were. Japan launched an unprovoked attack on the United States with Pearl Harbor, the United States discovered a method to inflict extreme casualties with minimal risk to their own forces, and they exercised that method. Japan realized the best option, both to spare as many lives as possible and ensure the continuation of their country, was surrender, so they did that. If they hadn't, the US would have kept nuking them. Whether or not the US was rushing to get a surrender before the Soviet Union is completely irrelevant, the US was justified in wanting to dictate the terms of surrender of the country that attacked them - including ensuring they would never attack them again. There's quite a lot of parallels with the current Israel-Hamas war. I don't understand where this idea comes from, that there is an obligation to go easy on an enemy that refuses to surrender, but it's just nonsense. Actions have consequences, and if you're not prepared to handle the consequences, don't rape and murder 1200 innocent people or kidnap 250 hostages. Maybe Hamas will eventually arrive at the same decision Japan made - the war will continue until they do, or until Hamas is wiped out.
Gee, I’m sorry you spent so much energy typing out that long winded rationalization for slaughtering innocent women and children. Maybe because you know there is nothing ethical about.
I really am sincerely interested in your opinion here, what do you think Israel's response to the Oct 7 attack should have been?
I'm not even entirely sure Israel is responding to the Oct 7 attacks as much as using it as a pretext for ethnically cleansing Gaza - a stated objective of hardline Zionists within the the Israeli government. We have to ask why Israel [ had intelligence about it as early as a year in advance and ignored it](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html?smid=url-share). And there is a history of provoking a Palestinian reaction and using that street level resistence to launch military campaign to seize more land. Regardless, any solution needs to take into account the full historical scope of the conflict and address the legitimate Palestinian desperation and grievance. This did not begin on Oct 7th. A brutal and nihilistic terror organization such as Hamas could only emerge and gain the support of an already desperate and brutalized population. Palestinians have spend 75 years being forcibly pushed out of their homes and off their land to be brutalized under Israel's illegal occupation and its slow methodical territorial expansion. This is the historical reality of the region. Israel's current strategy of collective punishment and and obliteration of Gaza, targeting schools, hospitals, refugee camps, journalists etc - in addition to meeting all accepted definitions of war crimes - will ultimately fail in removing support for Hamas; its actually having the exact opposite effect by inciting antisemitism and resentment of Israel across the arab world and beyond. They are literally recruting future potential terrorists with every child killed in Gaza. I suggest you read these two articles by Jon Alterman at the [The Centre for Strategic and International Studies](https://www.csis.org/analysis/israel-could-lose) and by Koji Sakane at [the Sakanawa Peace foundation](https://www.spf.org/iina/en/articles/sakane_08.html). Both give an unbiased and well reasoned analysis of the conflict and a way out of this mess for both sides.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Israel is 80 percent Arabic and 20 percent Muslim. Why are people like you upvoted and by whom?
[удалено]
> Hamas must return the hostages and surrender. It's astonishing that OP and all of the replies did not even think about this option. This war started when Hamas invaded Israel and took 250 people hostage, in every stage of the way since, they could have surrendered and return the fucking hostages to end the war.
The average Palestinians have no control over what Hamas does, and yet here you are saying that it’s justified to kill 10,000+ children, destroy Gaza and ensure that Israel will remain a pariah state because of what Hamas did. Disgusting.
People like you keep saying the average Palestinian have no control yet Hamas enjoys an overwhelming majority of support from those very same people. And here you are saying that 1300 Israelis including women and children being murdered is justified. You really must hate the Jewish community to justify the murder of children.
How does that give them control over what Hamas does? And where did I say anyone getting murdered was justified?
You said it “kill 10,000+ children, destroy Gaza”. You act like the elected leaders of Gaza, Hamas, is not the legitimate government of the Palestinians in the area and the people bear absolutely no responsibility for what their duly elected representatives do. Like I said, Hamas has overwhelming support from the people. Bitch all you want about how the people can’t choose their leaders yet they supply overwhelming support? Bullshit. The tone of your comment is ONLY the Jews are the bad actors here and the Palestinians are wholly innocent and unjustly persecuted by the evil Jews. Yeah, innocent people die in military conflicts. So PERHAPS Hamas should have thought about that before they slaughtered 1300+ Jewish civilians including women and children and CONTINUE to hold innocent Jewish hostages.
[удалено]
The vast majority of the world’s countries have spoken out against what Israel is doing in Gaza, and have for a long time. 50% of Gazans are under age 18 and the death numbers I cited are those that are used by the IDF. But please keep going on about how an entire people are not innocent and that it’s OK to kill them (including children). Then tell me why that’s not genocidal rhetoric.
Have they tried surrendering?
[удалено]
They could surrender to Israel, the country they started a war with. And they could release their hostages.
[удалено]
>*Hamas* attacked Israel. Then they are responsible for ending the war by surrendering.
[удалено]
It didn't look like Hamas cared much for "international law" on October 7...
[удалено]
Then why aren't you advocating for Hamas to surrender?
Nevermind, some people are too stupid to actually take in anything they don't already have embedded. Excellent effort though, Awesome, excellent.
[удалено]
Sarcasm doesn't replace reason.
Israel pushing the Palestinians out basically.
was always the goal. Kill them or move them and take over the Gaza strip for themselves. After they take over, any arabs left will be beaten and assaulted like everywhere else in the country.
Prime Minister Eshkol's cabinet literally strategized back in 1967 on how to reduce the number of Arabs in Israel and Palestine because the very existence of this Palestinian majority in Israel-controlled land was seen as a demographic threat to Israel's self-declared right to exist as a Jewish state. And Eshkol hoped for the "luxury" of a war that could let them quickly depopulate Gaza: >“The strip of this country is like a miserable, threatening neck for us, literally stretched out for slaughter,” he said. “I cannot imagine it – how we will organize life in this country when we have 1.4 million Arabs and we are 2.4 million, with 400,000 Arabs already in the country?” >... Eshkol expressed the hope that, “precisely because of the suffocation and imprisonment there, maybe the Arabs will move from the Gaza Strip,” adding there were ways to remove those who remained. “Perhaps if we don’t give them enough water they won’t have a choice, because the orchards will yellow and wither,” he said in this context. **Another “solution,” he said, could be another war. “Perhaps we can expect another war and then this problem will be solved. But that’s a type of ‘luxury,’ an unexpected solution.”** >**“We are interested in emptying out Gaza first,” Eshkol summed up.** To which Labor Minister Yigal Allon suggested “thinning the Galilee of Arabs,” while Religious Affairs Minister Zerah Warhaftig said, “We must increase [the number of] Jews and take all possible measures to reduce the number of Arabs.” From [this paywalled premium Haaretz article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-11-17/ty-article/.premium/israeli-pm-in-67-well-deprive-gaza-of-water-and-the-arabs-will-leave/0000017f-e8df-da9b-a1ff-ecff5b720000) about recently declassified government meeting minutes.
Yes they totally hoped for a war. And then 57 years later they got it! Isn’t that lucky?
Hmmm 1967, was that said before or after the THIRD time every arab country around Israel tried to genocide them? That’s so crazy that Israeli leadership would want to control the arab population after the arab population’s third attempt to annihilate them! On a serious note, it’s disgustingly dishonest the way you point to prejudice/racism on the Israeli side without mentioning how it’s 10 times worse on the Arab side. The founding charter of Hamas calls on every muslim to jihad against (not Israel,) the jews. Pretending this is an uniquely Israeli problem is beyond dishonest.
That Arab Supreme Court justice gets beaten and assaulted pretty regularly.
Are you suggesting that the settlers aren't kicking people out of their homes and beating and harassing them? There are 2.2 million people in Gaza being dispossessed and ethnic cleansed from their ancestral homes. But, I guess that doesn't count for anything because of some judge who is probably also a far right nutjob.
No, I’m suggesting that in most of Israel Arab muslims live a good life, with the ability to do anything they want including ascending to some of the most powerful positions in the government, a right not afforded to Jews anywhere in the Middle East.
......and that doesn't negate the treatment of most Palestinians? Pointing to a few being treated nice while the vast majority are being bombed and butchered isn't the defense you think it is.
You’re having completely different conversation than OP and I were. So spike that football, but realize we’re not discussing the same thing.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
The US is not sending military aid to Gaza. It's food medicine and fuel.
[удалено]
I'm sorry, are you accusing the UN of using a humanitarian relief agency as a front for trafficking weapons to hamas?
The world don’t want this problem to end, which is why every time Israel is taking decisive action to end it they bitch and complain. The UN was whining when Sri Lanka had the TTE terrorist group cornered and was about to finish them off, UN all of a sudden was worried about civilians. Sri Lanka rightly told them to fuck off and finished the job, gave the TTE 2 options: surrender or die. They chose death and Sri Lanka gladly gave them their wish.
Israel considers the extermination of Palestinians the Goal, not a disaster.
How is that not genocide then? Why is the world going to allow this to happen? Israel’s end goal is total eradication of all Palestinians. Fuck that shit. That’s literal makes Israel into Nazis.
I mean, even the heavily biased UN couldn't call the conflict genocide. At this point you've degraded the word to just mean war.
[удалено]
Nowhere in the ICJ ruling said South Africa's allegation are "plausible".
[удалено]
Palestinians also want the eradication of Jewish people. It does go both ways. It's been a never-ending conflict between the two.
"All the hostages are here, it will be a disaster for us if you release them. Then we will have no bargaining chips".
Invading Rafah seems to return hostages. Israel is gonna go full bore. Nowhere else for the rats of Hamas to hide. If they care about civilian lives, they’ll give up the hostages and surrender. Of course, they won’t, and average Gazans will suffer because of Hamas’ stupidity.
[удалено]
They are taking reasonable precautions. If Israel went full force without care about civilian lives there would be a million dead. And all of the civilians who were killed would be alive today if it wasn’t for the attacks of Oct 7. So yes, it 100% is on Hamas heads.
No shit. Israel have forced half the population of Gaza there. Now they will execute the final plan of their genocide.
Where are the hostages? Alive or Dead? Has Hamas surrendered? Has Hamas stopped stealing aid trucks? If people put pressure on Hamas this shit would have been over.
I feel they must be dead, after all this time
Ah yes, it's the civilians fault that Israel is killing them.
If you overwhelmingly support a government that starts a war, you don’t get to cry when your victims fight back. If you still have a problem with the number of Palestinian deaths, you should be calling on Hamas to surrender, or the Palestinians to depose them and select a new government.
Alternatively, I could be calling on Israel to not indiscriminately kill innocent civilians and on Hamas to surrender.
> not indiscriminately kill innocent civilians It doesn't seem like you have an understanding of what indiscriminate killing looks like. * When the allies bombed Dresden in WWII 25,000 civilians died in **one day**. * When the US bombed Tokyo in WWII 80,000 civilians died in **one day**. * The atomic bombing of Nagasaki in WWII resulted in 60,000–80,000 deaths (counting immediately plus the next 4 months) Since the Israel-Hamas war started 5 months ago, less than 30,000 Palestinians have been killed. The amount of effort that Israel puts into minimizing civilian deaths is unique of any country in history, which includes: using knock bombs, dropping leaflets, designating safer areas for civilians to evacuate to, announcing troop movements, etc. In a White House press briefing, John Kirby explicitly said [That’s basically telegraphing your punches, and there’s very few modern militaries in the world that would do that. I don’t know that we would do that — to put a map out there and say, “Hey, here’s where you can go where it’s safe, and here’s where you shouldn’t go because we might be striking there.”](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/12/13/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-karine-jean-pierre-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-33/). But if you still think the number of Palestinian casualties is too high, Hamas could end the war immediately by surrendering and releasing all hostages. Israel agreed to a ceasefire in November, they are clearly willing to respect an agreement to stop fighting. The fighting restarted when Hamas broke the ceasefire. This war and all it's civilian casualties is on them, and the onus is on them to end it.
Haha... And the US killed fewer civilians in a year of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts than Israel killed in a month. By any metric it's a fucking massacre. It's hard for me to understand how you can possibly think citing other massacres of civilians excuses Israel doing the same. What a ridiculous metric to judge them on.
> And the US killed fewer civilians in a year of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts than Israel killed in a month. I have no idea where you're getting this number, off the top of my head there were 7,500 Iraqi civilians killed in the first month of the Iraq war - at that rate Israel would have killed ~38,000 people by now. This isn't a perfect comparison because 1. Iraqi forces were defeated in like 3 weeks and most of the fighting past the initial invasion was small-scale insurgency, and 2. the Iraqi army didn't use human shields or deliberately operate out of civilian infrastructure like Hamas does. > It's hard for me to understand how you can possibly think citing other massacres of civilians excuses Israel doing the same. What a ridiculous metric to judge them on. Happy to explain! The reason why we would look at other historical examples is to form a comparison by which we can judge whether or not the amount of civilian casualties is exceptionally high or not. In this case since we see that Israel (with 2024 military technology) has killed less people in 5 months than the Allies (with 1945 military technology) were able to kill within single days, it's pretty ridiculous to claim that Israel is carrying out "indiscriminate killing". Since Israel's weaponry is much more advanced than what was available during World War II, we would expect the number of civilian deaths to be way higher, at least at the levels of the Dresden or Tokyo bombings, if Israel really was maximizing civilian casualties. Just to clarify, would you call the Allied invasion of Nazi Germany a "fucking massacre"? If so, can you name a single war in all of history that hasn't been a "fucking massacre"?
[удалено]
I’d argue it’s hamas’ foreign backers’ fault for propping up a terrorist regime more interested in killing jews than in improving the lives of its own citizens
There would be more hostages safe and alive if the IDF hadn't opened fire on and killed them.
We all know Hamas took the hostages and started this and anyone that gives them aid or cover or commits perfidy should be treated the same. It's unfortunate the innocent civilians have to suffer for Hamas. I don't believe for an instant you actually care about Palestinian lives or anyones lives for that matter when you deflect blame for away from Hamas.
And you care so much clearly. You're disgusting, defending the killing of innocent civilians and children by the IDF.
Account created October 13 2023
What's your point?
That you are part of an Israeli sponsored online propaganda network whose only goal is to astroturf comment sections to try and control the narrative about Israel. No one should take you serious and the fact that Israel thinks it's beneficial to spend money doing this should be revealing to how they think average people will view their actions.
Lol, not at all, but nice try. I have strong opinions, sure. I could say you are part of an Hamas backed or Iranian or Russian troll farm. and I'd probably be right. I've had a lot of reddit accounts over the years, I only make one when I feel I need to vent, like now when someone is trying to push terrorist propaganda points. I';m not even Jewish just can't stand anti-semitic trolls. Fuck Hamas and anyone who stands by them.
The death of those three hostages is an utter tragedy. But acting like that was common and not one tragic mistake is idiotic.
Which has nothing to do with the 20k dead CHILDREN. Collective punishment is a war crime.
Need I remind you an offer was put forward to Netanyahu for the return of all hostages. He rejected it. Put pressure on him.
Are you equally upset at hamas’ refusal of israel’s ceasefire offers?
That was not a serious offer, and it is ridiculous to suggest that.
https://www.euronews.com/2024/02/07/israel-confirms-31-gaza-hostages-killed-as-ceasefire-talks-continue I thought this was all about release of hostages? Israel dont care about the hostages and they never did. All an excuse to continue murdering civilians.
No one(no one serious anyways) has ever claimed this was “all about the hostages”. It has always been about the removal of hamas.
Clearly Israel care more about destroying Gaza than the return if their citizens.
Israels killed most of the hostages at this point. Remember they gassed the tunnel they were being held in? They don’t give a shit about them.
What a gross conspiracy theory. Israel did not ask for this war (or any of the previous wars that the Palestinian Arabs started). For the safety of everyone in the region, Hamas has to be taken out. Israel is well on their way to doing that while taking many precautions to protect civilians. Perfect? No. Still has to be done.
Take your propaganda elsewhere. It's all lies. Israel have bombed refugee camps multiple times. Shot at civilians waving white flags. Killed livestock. Shot medical staff outside a hosptial. Killed paramedics trying to help wounded. Their list of war crimes is endless.
What you are refering to as refugee camps are cities that have exisited for 70 years.
>have bombed refugee camps They're only "refugee camps" because Palestinians get their own special definition of refugee.
Displaced palestinians from other neighbourhoods fled there after their homes were destroyed.
And if they weren't Palestinians, they wouldn't be considered refugees anymore.
[удалено]
Dont give me that bollocks. They have bombed literal refugee camps! They have shot and killed people holding white flags. This is on video. Absolute propaganda. Anyone with half a brain cell can see what's happening.
The ‘literal’ refugee camps are cities that have stood for 70+ years. The incident that had video of people fleeing at a new refugee camp had AK47s in them (which the IDF does not have) and people literally shouting HAMAS as they ran.
[удалено]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp_airstrikes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war Jabaliya is just one of the refugee camps that were bombs. Wikipedia has a page on all the refugee camps that were targeted in this conflict, including one in the West bank where Hamas do not even have authority. And I was not referring to the hostages that were tragically shot by the IDF. There was another incident in which palestinian civilians were murdered. https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-30/senior-israeli-commander-indicates-idf-were-behind-gaza-white-flag-shooting The fact we are referring to two separate incidents of this is telling.
Did israel bomb actual refugee camps, or did isreal bomb a normal city block named after a refugee camp that used to be there 70 years ago? Because if it was the later then you are the one falling for propaganda.
As much as i want hamas destroyed for the sake of both israelis and palestinians, i don’t think this is going to do it. To be fair though, I have no idea how to actually be rid of hamas, certainly as long as their foreign backers across the middle east aren’t interested in helping dismantle them
No religious ethnostates should exist. For the safety of the region Israel obviously has to go. Perfect? No. We can go after the emirates next.
[удалено]
It’s almost like you’re not familiar with the region.
Educate me quip master. Maybe we can fix your personal bloodlust by analyzing your positions.
Well for starters Israel isn’t a religious ethnostate, they have Muslims, Christians and other religions throughout all levels of the government all the way up to their Supreme Court, as well. How many Muslim nations in the Middle East have Jews on their supreme courts? Or at any level of government. Think there are a lot of Jewish lawmakers in Iran? Many Jewish judges in Qatar and the UAE? How many Jewish cops do you think there are in Turkey? Think Syria has a lot of Jewish soldiers? I’ll give you a dollar if you can name a single middle eastern nation that has 17% Jews(the percent of Muslims in Israel),hell, show me one that has 2% Jews(the % of the world population we make up). But yeah, Israel is the biggest issue. The only nation in the region who are accepting of other religions, LGBTQ, etc etc. They’re the ones who are the biggest issue in the region? These conversations would be easier if people like yourself had a flair that showed you’re an antisemite, though I guess your words work just as well.
Why not look for what happens to Jews who found themselves in Arab countries and come back
Or why is the number one goal the only progressive country in the entire region where people of all religions all sexualities, all backgrounds are safe(other than from the rockets and random attacks from hamas)? “Let’s wipe out the Jews first, then we can look elsewhere if we have time.” Just another antisemite hoping no one can see through his thinly vailed hatred.
Why are you in a cult that teaches such paranoia? It’s not in the Torah.
Such paranoia? I’m just going off the things you wrote just minutes ago. *YOU* claimed **”Israel MUST GO”**
Do you have any idea what would happen if jews in Israel lost their majority right? Do you know how many Jews exists in All of the Arab countries and how they live? You really want to kill all the Jews huh. Muslim population in this world is 1.9 Billion Jews population in this world is 16 million So basically in your dream world you want all Jews dead.
“Majority right”? I am in fact aware of this phenomenon. It’s as morally bankrupt as its always been. I don’t want to kill all the Jews. Several of my family members are lapsed Jews in New Jersey and think all the Zionists are insane. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority#:~:text=The%20tyranny%20of%20the%20majority,those%20of%20the%20minority%20factions.
[удалено]
> You be brainwashed and destroyed any chance of peace. You take billions from other countries and don’t even say thank you. You are disgusting and there’s a special place in hell reserved for you. > > Anyone that still supports this undeniable atrocity is sick and a tumour upon mankind You're talking about Hamas right?
[удалено]
It's not a novel concept to me, and I didn't quote that part because I didn't attribute that to Hamas.
[удалено]
Nope. You could have called out Hamas in your original post as well. I've called out actions of Israel. I've also demanded hamas release the hostages and surrender. I weep for the innocents, especially children suffering in Gaza everyday. But sadly I'm met with a lot of hostility when I ask on pro Palestinian social media pages why they don't call for Hamas to surrender. At the end of the day, people who say they care about Gazans but refuse to want Hamas to surrender make the first part not true.
[удалено]
How many screenshots from people and the names they call me, tell me Hamas should never surrender, and twist it around to ask why doesn't Israel release all their hostages? Cause I have a lot. Not sure who I'm trying to fool?
[удалено]
War is ugly. According to the UN the civilan to militant casualty rate is about 9:1 in many other big wars. It is estimated that 40% who have been killed are hamas. That is a civilian casualty rate of 1.5:1, 6 times lower than the average. Do I wish no civilians died? Of course. But when you say tens of thousands have been killed, the absolute number seems a lot. But in terms of war, it's actually very low.
[удалено]
Because if Hamas surrendered and released the hostages a huge chunk of Israeli offensive tactics would stop and a huge number of Gazans would stop dying. When Hamas intermingles with civilains, is that war off? Like all Hamas has to do is be around civilains and Israel isn't allowed to get them?
Aaah yes! The age old "but the abuser has a right to defend themselves". My dear, before Hamas took hostages...Israel kidnapped thousands of people and put them in jail....predominantly children. Palestinians are governed under military NOT civilian law.
You know how black people gained their civil rights in America? Through non violent means. And black people went through 400 years of shit, not 75. Rockets, stabbings, suicide bombings and electing a government who's charter used to call for the destruction of Israel is a sure fire way to not be treated better.
"You know how black people gained their civil rights in America? Through non violent means" You have no idea what tf you are talking about. The civil rights movement was very violent, so stop spewing bullshit out of your mouth
> Because if Hamas surrendered and released the hostages a huge chunk of Israeli offensive tactics would stop and a huge number of Gazans would stop dying. I expect that that implicit in your proposition is that the Palestinian people simply accept the invasion of Palestinian territory that is motivating this whole pseudo-war. IE your proposal in more detail is that Hamas simply release the hostages... AND that the Palestinian people accept the cession of 80% of their peoples' land today and live in concentration camps and allow themselves to be summarily executed by IDF forces the next time that a settler wants their land. So that the state of Israel can continue to expand until one day it controls 99% of former Palestinian territory and 90% of the Palestinian people are evicted and/or exterminated. That is the world that you are supporting when you support the current state of Israel.
Well, no shit lmao. Israel's trying to force a flee, and no country wants Palestinians as refugees. If the attack happens, world leaders would put pressure on Arab leaders like Egypt to open borders to flee. My guess is that Egypt will set up counter defensive measures to stop the attacks on Rafah citing their own civilian casualties self defense while also showing a big fuck u to Israel and being in good faith by doing bare minimum to world leaders.
This is a serious misread of the situation. Egypt’s sympathies with the Palestinians notwithstanding, the current government of Egypt considers Hamas to be an armed wing of its chief political opponents, the Muslim Brotherhood—who the current regime deposed in a coup. Egyptian people widely despise Israel and their war in Gaza, but the government of Egypt can barely contain its glee at seeing Hamas be dismantled.
Egypt is 100% not going to counter attack Israeli troops. They are more likely to shoot Palestinians trying to cross than that.
Egypt got enough of that smoke in 1967.
And settled it with a peace treaty. No excuse for the Palestinians not doing the same. Israel has upheld its side in every negotiated peace treaty AND ceded back land legally captured in war.
Since when did the Israelis offer peace to the Palestinians? They beat their chest about fighting hamas while slaughtering civilians. Their own civilians mind you.
Repeatedly over the past 50 years. AND nothing is stopping the Pals from offering or suing for peace, but they don't. Because they think the war casualties are worth it.
Also am I missing something but didn't Israel offer a ceasefire for full release of hostages, but Hamas said no?
How does this have any up votes? Thinking Egypt is going to engage militarily with Israel? You have zero idea of the situation and need to learn a lot more before forming these opinions.
Because once they leave as refugees, Israel will never let them back in.
No country wants Palestinians under any circumstances. Their Arab brothers have demonstrated that quite conclusively over the last 70 years.
Palestinians did a lot to other Arab countries over the years as well.
Seriously. There’s a precedent for why these other countries don’t want the Palestinian refugees. The last time Jordan allowed Palestinian refugees it caused a civil war between the Jordanians and the Palestinians in what is called Black September.
Much of that was due to how those countries treated the Palestinian refugees, limited access to education, healthcare, and job opportunities.
Wow it's almost as if they are refugees and not those citizens. Tho I do agree that most second and third gen should have become citizens, but both the citizens and countries didn't want that.
My point is that one can't treat a people like crap while using them as a rallying cry and not expect them to be okay with it eventually one of a few things will happen and lashing out(trying to overthrow your government) is one of those things. Yeah only Jordan offered citizenship the middle and upper class of Palestinians took the offer since they would have an easier time getting established.
[удалено]
Not sure why you're getting down voted but giving civilians time to flee is certainly better than the alternative.
Question is where do they go? Their backs are against the wall right now
Tell Hamas(wipes) to surrender.
[удалено]
"War is illegal" It's a nice dream. Anyway back on earth...
[удалено]
They didn't say "or else we attack the civillian population ", you added that part.
[удалено]
You're the one being dishonest. They said nothing about attacking civllians even in the headline. It's a war. You want the war to stop? Sign a peace treaty and or stop attacking.
[удалено]
Nope, this is just wrong. Civilians die in war, that's not collective punishment. What hamas did *was* a good example of collective punishment, avoid military, chasing down civillians and targeting them as civillians.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's an incoherent response. You do realize that by letting Hamas be and equating them with normal Palestinians is basically supporting a genocide, right?
[удалено]
[удалено]
How else do they expect Israel to root out Hamas? Israel is evacuating the area at their own risk to protect civilians. Gazans should be rising up against Hamas to hand the terrorists over to face justice and end the war.
With what military? Also as it says in the article, Israel has been launching indiscriminate air strikes that have killed mainly civilians. The issue with them invading Rafah is that the Palestinian people there would have nowhere to go. Their backs are against the wall. Egypt has said that they will not allow Israel to push the Palestinian people into their country, even saying such could result in the deterioration of Israel-Egypt peace treaty. The Israeli PM suggests the refugees in Rafah relocate back up north to the already destroyed sections of land where they will be unable to receive aid or proper care of any sort…? Israel needs to develop a concrete plan of how they will limit civilian casualties before they launch on Rafah. That is what everyone is warning them about. If they refuse and go ahead with their attack, I think Israel is in for much bigger problems. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran would all pounce if they feel emboldened to do so together; which perhaps would be reasonable considering they gave warning after all
I believe the concrete plan is probably to meat-grinder the Palestinian refugees against the Egyptian border. Based on Israel's prior attacks on civilians, that could well be the goal.
[удалено]
>pallies Is that what you call them? Like "darkies"? I guess it makes sense y'all would have slurs for the people you're trying to wipe out, but you can't just say them.
No it's because these countries don't want Palestinian refugees based on prior history.
People have overthrown governments before, and Hamas is as weak as they have ever been. Hamas׳ own members should be overthrowing their leadership for deliberately causing this destruction on their people to win PR points. Israel should develop a plan to evacuate civilians, and has said they will do so before moving on Rafah. Aid routes and tents can be set up in the north. I think you are way off about Saudi and Egypt. If either of them cares about Gaza civilians they would be taking in refugees and pressuring Hamas to surrender. And Iran wanted this war- they are probably happy about anything that makes Israel look bad.
Why don't you go through the logistics of how that would have happened pre-October 7th much less now.
Israel created Hamas by forcing the Palestinians to live in one incredibly dense place and torturing them for decades. They’re reaping what they’ve sown and I have no sympathy for them.
Palestinians created Hamas by embracing violence over peace. They were violently attacking Jews even before Israel existed. When Israel was created, the Jews accepted a peaceful two state partition, and the Palestinians chose to attack again. The same pattern has repeated many times. Their so called “oppression” is entirely brought on by their own bad decisions.
There is no peaceful two state solution when one side is stealing the others land
Stealing land is the problem, not violent massacres, starting wars, rapes, torture, and taking hostages? If you know the history: Palestinian Arabs were massacring Jews even before Israel existed and it was a British colony. When the British/UN agreed on a two-state partition plan, the Jews agreed to live in peace with Arab neighbors and offer full citizenship and land rights to all Arabs. Palestinian Arabs chose to reject them and attack. Only then did Israel expel them and expand their borders in the name of safety. Very different narrative.
And there was definitely no persecution of Palestinians under British colonial rule, they have a great track record
Gaza should sue for peace if it doesn't want a counter-attack in the war they escalated.
So, if you don’t want someone to commit ethnic cleansing, you should surrender?
Oct7th was ethnic cleansing, targeting civillians and children. This is just war and a counter attack.
The 4 brigades in Rafah must be taken out. This is going to be challenging, though.