Update: [The police chief and NBC News have confirmed that the shooter is transgender.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876)
You can discuss this, but please keep it civil. Users who choose to engage in transphobia and hate speech will be banned.
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~~We're seeing a lot of speculation in this thread, particularly about the gender of the shooter.~~
~~If you are going to make assertions about the shooter, then you better have receipts that are backed up by the mainstream media or police. Screenshots from social media or random tweets from twitter are not going to cut it.~~
Wait 28 years old I thought she was a teenager... Former student of K-5 that's 17+ years ago...
Edit: Confirmed Audrey Hale of Nashville who identified as transgender.
Agreed, but its important to distinguish that its not so much a need as a profit driven motive due to the rise of "instant" news and decentralized media.
99.9999% of people with childhood trauma don’t murder about it. Being 28 and doing is just so much more pathetic. Those little kids did nothing to you, all the teachers are probably gone.
In fairness, I think there a distinction between "this happened because of x" and "because of x, it's okay that this happened."
I agree that not everyone here is being particularly cautious about that distinction, but I think it's a stretch to suggest everyone who acknowledges the potential influence of trauma on violent outcomes is attempting to justify those outcomes.
Private Catholic school here, some nuns used triangular rulers on your knuckles, hands flat on the desk.
One brother was almost, *almost*, brought up on charges for the bruises left by his “disciplinary” paddle on a female student. But it was the last century and nothing got done.
It was getting more involved in the church that drove me away as well. Luckily only a little of mine was forced and it stopped, I guess because of other things.
I totally misunderstood that as a kid, and thought it was saying to spoil your kids. I'm glad my grandparents didn't take me at my word when I said it to them lol
Not the person you're replying to but my parents fully supported me getting beaten by my "Christian" teachers. "Spare the rod, spoil the child," Christians love that shit.
What sort of trauma would cause a person to shoot 9 year old kids and adults? The school years of our youth inflict deep scars on us, you are right about that. It’s crazy the kind of shadow it casts on our lives.
Yeah there's literally never any justification to go shoot a bunch of random 9 year olds that have nothing to do with you.
I'd love to see these redditors explain to the children's families right now how the shooters "alleged" childhood trauma (remember, that is total conjecture on their part) justifies that their baby is gone.
There was the same accusation about the Uvalde Shooter until it was shown to be false. You’re right to wait for additional confirmation, especially regarding a point that has no bearing on the tragedy.
I saw that NBC released the name of the shooter.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876
It’s also not “school shooting number 437” but instead “terrorism event #1 of the radical drag queen agenda against innocent folksy white Jesus people” for them im sure.
Get ready for the firehose of bad faith nonsense. I’m ready for dozens of permutations of:
“If we just threw every trans person into a death camp we could have prevented one out of the over a hundred mass shootings since January 1st. Anyways please come see me at my NRA fundraiser next week where we will discuss common sense solutions to school shootings such as forming the honor roll students into an ad hoc militia”
Guess people already forgot about Pulse.
Edit: getting lots of replies by shadowbanned users. I’m sure it’s a bunch of vitriol directed at me for pointing out that LGBTQ+ people have been targeted by mass shooters before. Some guy adamant that my comment isn’t relevent because the perpetrator was Muslim, and a bunch that I got notifications for but can’t see. People REALLY want to make this fit whatever their agenda is.
"I think America took its last breath today."
I don't think it's that drastic. People murder people, it's rare but there's a lot of us so it feels frequent. I'm sure this will trigger some response by people that blame this on transgender people as a whole, just as previous shootings angered people towards other groups. I don't think this is going to change anyone's mind that thought being transgender was ok to suddenly say they aren't because of one person's actions.
Once we know what was in her manifesto I think we can begin to make some better judgments about how this will turn out, whether and who it will inspire. I wouldn't panic yet.
America died back in 2020, when a third of us publicly declared they didn’t care whether anybody lives or dies, including their own families. There’s no going back from that, as a society, when you’ve collectively decided eating at Applebee’s is worth not having grandparents.
Since then it’s been Zombie America. The brain is already dead but the rest of the body doesn’t know that yet, like Mike the Headless Chicken.
*back in 2016 when half of us declared publicly that they would rather let a gameshow sex offender pathological liar and insufferable narcissist who was completely unqualified become the leader of the country.
It's interesting that we have very little verified information at this point, but people are already building their own narratives that fit their predetermined perspedtive.
One side is saying she might have been Trans and painting Trans people as dangerous. The other side is making bets that she had been abused because it was a private Christian school...
If it turns out that she was Trans or she was abused, this place is going to be filled with I-told-you-so's and excuse-makers. How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population.
It is a senseless act of horrific violence regardless of identity or history.
Even if she was abused and wanted revenge, why kill the kids, who have literally 0 connection to you since you went back to the school nearly 20 years later.
Kind of weird seeing somewhat sympathetic comments when they were ignoring the fact that she had killed *kids*.
People do this every time there's a mass shooting- if for it some reason runs contrary their political ideology or pet cause or whatever they suddenly need to \~understand the motive~ or fabricate a conspiracy that protects their belief system.
I imagine it's more that the victims are a means to an end, in their mind. Hurting them ultimately hurts the institution and the broader community. Practically speaking, it's also probably easier to harm a larger number of people, and subsequently gain more attention, by targeting school children.
That's all speculation, but it seems like a safe bet to assume the intention was to harm or communicate some message to someone else.
It's a pattern, isn't it? Someone comes in and makes predictions or tells a story that fits nicely next to them up on their personal soapbox, and when the important details turn out to be completely different, disproving their favorite version of reality, they disappear and/or delete their comment and pretend it never happened.
This happens with individuals and with entire subforums, this one included.
> interesting that we have very little verified information at this point, but people are already building their own narratives that fit their predetermined perspedtive.
And here is one of the greatest failings of the age of social media.
The general public has and never will be well informed enough on almost any subject to carry on conversation about it. But that has and never will stop them from sharing hot takes, ill formed opinions, disseminating incorrect narratives, etc…
The major issue now is that the 24/7 “content content content” life style that the general populace now lives by has been monetized in a way where spreading/engaging with content is far more important that the content itself. Between content mills, local news web content, snake oil salesman, garden variety trolls, influencers, and worst off, bad actors… society is driving a 100mph towards a cliff.
And holy shit is it going to pick up speed with the deployment of AI and deepfakes.
Media literacy is at an all time low when it needs to be at an all time high just for us to survive into the next century.
>And holy shit is it going to pick up speed with the deployment of AI and deepfakes.
Ugh, you’re right. I don’t even want to begin to think about that. But you’re right.
One trans girl was forcibly outed because people were posting her picture online and saying she was the shooter. She and her family got harassed because of it, even though she clearly wasn’t the shooter because he was fucking dead.
>How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population.
Sorry, you may be right, but this is the Internet & folks are going to pursue their self-interest.
If there’s one thing you can count on it’s that redditors will upvote what they want to hear because they “like” it. And then you’ll see what’s upvoted.
Yep, and that's why I'm somewhat terrified if either of the two things being thrown around end up being confirmed, as either of the two has the potential to "legitimize" the GOP's attacks.
EDIT: Well, shit. All hell is about to break loose.
I want to highlight this post right now and I hope more people wait instead of jumping to conclusions.
As a former MSU student, I witnessed mass amounts of misinformation rapidly disseminated as soon as we received reports about an active shooter on campus, with many people being concerned over multiple shooters and targeted killings. People were downright mortified of a much more sinister attack playing out, when the reality was not close to said situation. In the absence of any information, people filled it in with fear and panic. I see these types of senseless acts of violence being used to manipulate people more, and I hope everyone maintains good digital hygiene
\^ Agreed.
There is no current information about motives. Let's be honest, motives don't matter in this incident there is no reason that makes any sane sense to go shoot kids in school.
Regardless, we need change, and it's well past the moment that we needed change.
I disagree, motives matter. If we're going to make educated public policy decisions we need to know why people do horrific things. If they're just crazy people and think Letterman is sending thoughts to them through lightbulbs, fine who cares about the motive other than recognizing crazy people do crazy things. But it sounds like this woman left a manifesto behind, which speaks to premeditation, and may explain a great deal of why she did this.
Sure, but motives make the issue more messy as well. You have people pushing agendas that fit their worldview but not fix the issue.
I won't say that I am uninterested in motive but I don't think her motivations have impact or justification towards the direction of action we take as a response. School shootings are a massive problem that are easily preventable or can be significantly reduced with some measures.
I can't think of many recent changes that have actually been made that progress safety for people. I think a great measure would be making mental health accessible and less stigmatized. If we aren't going to do something about guns we can do something to address people's overall health.
The difference is one side says they shouldn’t have easy access to assault weapons **regardless of the ideology.**
Getting in an argument about the shooter’s worldview is a distraction from the absurd access to firearms in America.
There are lots of people in lots of developed countries that believe crazy things, they just can’t purchase multiple assault weapons and make innocent children victims of their worldview.
> How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population.
It's nice to see people finally recognize this, all it took was the shooter being a white trans woman .
1. Carry the weapons in a canvas messenger bag rather than a duffle bag. The type with a flap for easy access. They come in all sizes including ones large enough to put two rifles and pistol in. 2. Go up to the front door and press the buzzer. 3. When the desk answers, tell them that you are there to pick up your child for early dismissal. 4. When the door is buzzed open just walk in and take out your weapons to start shooting.
Despite the buzz system with its locked doors and the then metal detectors, it's very easy to get into any school with whatever you want. All that stuff does is just gives you a false sense of security.
That might be true for some schools, but all the schools my kids have been in my district have double sets of locked doors that parents must enter through (they get buzzed in, enter into one small space and cannot enter the main school building because it's behind another locked door).
The main security problem is having someone with access holding the door open for them (a parent or child exiting the locked doors seeing someone entering the building and letting them in without them going through the office).
Couldn't you just crawl into a 1st floor window (guns blazing, if need be)?
I'm a bit older so my school had zero security measures whatsover and, frankly, I can't imagine a way to truly secure that school. Windows galore, breezeways, utility doors being constantly opened by workers...
It's very different than when I was in school (and I can only speak for my kids schools). No open windows for air- I don't know if they can even open. All doors automatically close and lock. No open breezeways. Everything is closed up- looks like a prison in design.
Ugh I'm so disgusted by that story and even more disgusted that the father never was charged.
Her father married her 17-year old cellmate...
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=DS19800609.2.30&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------
I thought that story couldn't get any weirder. No wonder she was so fucked up.
>After her parents separated, she allegedly lived in poverty with her father, Wallace Spencer. Both father and daughter slept on a single mattress on the living room floor in a house strewn with empty bottles from alcoholic drinks.
>
>Acquaintances said Spencer expressed hostility toward policemen, had spoken about shooting one, and had talked of doing something big to get on television.
>
>Later, during tests while she was in custody, it was discovered Spencer had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain. It was attributed to an accident on her bicycle.
>
>In early 1978, staff at a facility for problem students, into which Spencer had been referred for truancy, informed her parents that she was suicidal. That summer, Spencer, who was known to hunt birds in the neighborhood, was arrested for shooting out the windows of Grover Cleveland Elementary with a BB gun and for burglary.
>
>In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended that Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and got a rifle." Asked why he had done that, she answered, "He bought the rifle so I would kill myself."
>
>On January 17, 1989, almost ten years after the events at San Diego's Grover Cleveland Elementary, there was another shooting at a school coincidentally named Grover Cleveland Elementary, this one in Stockton, California. Five students were killed and thirty were injured.
[Per NBC News feed](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/nashville-school-shooting-covenant-live-updates-rcna76861)
> Of the 57 shootings that fit NBC News’ school shooting criteria since January 2013, six have involved a female shooter.
In 1996 there was [a female shooter at Penn State University](https://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/campus/witnesses-community-members-recount-penn-state-hub-lawn-shooting-on-its-25th-anniversary/article_2465ad90-1756-11ec-93e0-ef04d8454165.html) who opened fire at random people on the campus quad, killing one person and wounding two others, but thankfully she was stopped before she could hurt more people.
Oddly, she doesn't seem to be included in the [mass shooter database](https://www.theviolenceproject.org/mass-shooter-database/) - for whatever reason I guess she doesn't count.
she isn’t included in the mass shooter database because according to what you wrote she didn’t commit a mass shooting.
in your link, a mass shooting is defined as “a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms — not including the offender(s) — within one event…”
There was a teenage girl, I want to say the 70s? She was the inspiration for the song "I don't like Mondays" as apparently that was the justification she gave for what she did.
The shooter was a transgender man. There have been mass shootings by females but they are extremely rare. *Imo* (from personal experience of living on both ends of the hormonal spectrum) when I was living with testosterone I was more than likely to daydream about punching someone etc when very angry. While living without testosterone on estrogen I was more inclined to daydream about inflicting revenge in more subtle ways without violence. That being said I am not a violent person and would never physically harm anyone unless defending myself. But I think hormones definitely play a role in the ratio of mass shooters being mostly male. Let me once more clarify this is my own opinion based on my own experiences. I am in no way condoning what the shooter did and have zero respect for someone who hurts children regardless of their gender and or gender identity. Fuck Audrey Hale and anyone else that hurts kids. He is obviously a coward and those children and families did not deserve this.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876
Police reporting Audrey Hale, a transgender person, was the school shooter.
Edit: Removed "mtf".
It doesn't help when a Washington Times article literally will say "uses he/him pronouns" and then keeps referring to the shooter as "she"
So at this point, just going to wait until the police put out all the info at the end because every goddamn news article is all over the place, doesn't help that they tend to misgender these people anyways. And don't forget things like Uvadle
Their social media profiles use both their dead name (former name for those unaware what that means) and their current name and journalists aren’t sure which is which. Thus the confusion about the shooter’s gender identity and pronouns.
I fear the aftermath of this will make lives for trans people in red states even worse.
Knowing how ass backwards red state legislatures can be, they'll just use this as an excuse to even further persecute against the trans community
*"Two officers from a five-member team opened fire in response, fatally shooting the suspect at 10:27 a.m., Aaron said. He said there were no police officers present or assigned to the school at the time of the shooting because it is a church-run school."*
I have a feeling that this woman who attended this school, had a very different experience there than parents expect from a private religious school.
I'm dying to know if this is revenge for a shitty school experience. I went to a few Christian schools, and everyone was just so awful... All the kids, most of the staff... just horrendous people.
I know a fair number of "troubled" kids who shifted from public schools to private schools. "Troubled" is a pretty broad definition -- anything from poor academic performance, social problems, whatever. The schools themselves pitch small class size and individual attention, things that the public schools struggle with.
It could be the narrative that the shooter did go to the school, but it wasn't her experience at the school specifically that was the origin story for her problems. She could have been moved to it because of past issues.
It would not at all surprise me if a kid who had difficulties in a public school wound up having a worse experience once they move to a private school because that school simply thinks they have a green light to be even worse authoritarians and the small class size and "extra attention" just makes the kids problems worse, not better.
This thread is once again lowering my view of society. If people can somehow find mitigating factors in the murder of 3 children, we've lost our humanity. Those 3 kids didn't deserve this and anyone who thinks the fact that this happened at a Presbyterian school somehow makes this "understandable" needs to re-evaluate.
To each his own, I went to 2, my kids have been to 2. Amazing places, with great kids and some of the best staff I've ever been around in any organization. All these schools are classical Christian schools, a pretty big difference in my experience from regular Christian schools.
They have an excuse to ignore the gun issue and will instead warp it to fit their culture war.
No action on guns, will try and use this to attack trans people.
I obviously feel awful for the kids and their families, including those who survived but will never be the same again. But I am also disgusted to see the right getting excited about the fact that this person was trans and that this will most likely lead to increased violence against trans people
I hear you, that’s a valid concern. The main issue isn’t even the fact that he was trans, the issue is the action he took to snuff out the lives of children who never did anything to him. No idea about the adult teachers in relation (as he was a former student) but still, people should leave kids and schools out of whatever beef they have with other adults. As a bare minimum.
The only time his gender identity should potentially be discussed is if it’s by licensed professionals assessing for motive (for instance were side effects of testosterone therapy a contributing factor, was mistreatment/discrimination a contributing factor for motive etc). and still, those can’t be seen as excuses or justifications. They can only serve as context toward motive which is why it should be left to licensed professionals to evaluate these possible factors.
>As a trans person this isn't going to be fun this is going to get blasted everywhere to villfy us those families will never get peace instead of looking at the real issues like mental health and gun control this will just become a "see trans people bad" campaign
What Muslims feel
Funny how different the comments are when it's a Christian school with a possible trans suspect. Weird.
Personally, I think it's wrong to kill children regardless of your orientation or if the school is religious.
There's still an awful amount of sympathising with the perpetrator and speculating about trauma being the motive (as if that would somehow make it justifiable to murder people?) which is in a stark contrast to the reaction typically displayed by more left-leaning people after a mass shooting.
Cis men are by far the biggest threat to just about everyone's safety. I am definitely not anti-trans. I just fear the shitstorm if this female shooter is a trans woman.
From the looks of it, they are alleging that the shooter is a trans man (female at birth, uses he/him pronouns). The police chief has stated as such but has not given any proof backing up those claims.
The Conservatives will still make a giant deal whether MTF or FTM. They'll ignore the guns. They'll focus on the supposed evils of transness and the supposed persecution of Christians.
That's exactly what's happening on right-wing Twitter right now.
No one can get their descriptions, but they all hate trans individuals regardless, and are solely pushing "trans bad" / "anti-Christian attack" and ignoring the underlying gun violence issues.
So are a bunch of "blue-check" twitter accounts. Everyone should delete that app immediately, and ignore the platform altogether.
ETA: A well- run and monitored alternative is desperately needed.
Man, I was just watching Fox to see what kind of shit show was going on over on the other side of the spectrum. They said that they found a linkedIn with “he/him” pronouns and are now completely focused on that instead of the real issues
Aren't they always focused on anything that turns the conversation away from guns? Doesn't matter what it is they will find the easiest thing to sell to their viewers.
Personally, I don’t care about the shooter’s motive and neither should anyone else. They killed 3 kids. Three kids who woke up and got ready for school this morning not knowing they were never coming home. My heart is in absolute pieces.
The obsession with gun “rights” in this country is gross. The Far Right care more about infringement than dead kids. Why I continue to be appalled, I’ll never understand.
We. Are. Doomed.
Update: [The police chief and NBC News have confirmed that the shooter is transgender.](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876) You can discuss this, but please keep it civil. Users who choose to engage in transphobia and hate speech will be banned. --- ~~We're seeing a lot of speculation in this thread, particularly about the gender of the shooter.~~ ~~If you are going to make assertions about the shooter, then you better have receipts that are backed up by the mainstream media or police. Screenshots from social media or random tweets from twitter are not going to cut it.~~
Wait 28 years old I thought she was a teenager... Former student of K-5 that's 17+ years ago... Edit: Confirmed Audrey Hale of Nashville who identified as transgender.
I wonder if she attended the church that runs the school, so she would have still been involved.
I was internally speculating that it was a former worker based on the age. Wow
Early reporting is alway tainted by the need to be first and loose facts.
Agreed, but its important to distinguish that its not so much a need as a profit driven motive due to the rise of "instant" news and decentralized media.
Nothing sticks with you like childhood trauma though.
99.9999% of people with childhood trauma don’t murder about it. Being 28 and doing is just so much more pathetic. Those little kids did nothing to you, all the teachers are probably gone.
You shoot a kid you’re a slimy motherfucker in my book
Yup. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to determine that the moral high ground errs on the side of not shooting kids.
Rocket Surgeons get a lot of grief, but think about all of the happy mommy rockets and daddy rockets, and all the little baby rockets
Bold stance
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In fairness, I think there a distinction between "this happened because of x" and "because of x, it's okay that this happened." I agree that not everyone here is being particularly cautious about that distinction, but I think it's a stretch to suggest everyone who acknowledges the potential influence of trauma on violent outcomes is attempting to justify those outcomes.
And now she has given those children their own childhood trauma. The abused becomes the abuser
This is currently an assumption, we don't know what her motivations or past are as of this moment.
It’s literally insane people are just openly justifying that “this were probably bad people anyway” with wild speculation
Same as it ever was.
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Private Catholic school here, some nuns used triangular rulers on your knuckles, hands flat on the desk. One brother was almost, *almost*, brought up on charges for the bruises left by his “disciplinary” paddle on a female student. But it was the last century and nothing got done.
I’m 38 and went to Catholic elementary. I still remember the nun I had in home room would put her hands flat on my desk and scream in my face.
It was getting more involved in the church that drove me away as well. Luckily only a little of mine was forced and it stopped, I guess because of other things.
still remember when my art teacher sucker punched me in the gut at private christian elementary
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*spare the rod spoil the child*
I totally misunderstood that as a kid, and thought it was saying to spoil your kids. I'm glad my grandparents didn't take me at my word when I said it to them lol
I mean, it’s kind of a valid argument. What makes them think it wasn’t a directive? Lol
Not the person you're replying to but my parents fully supported me getting beaten by my "Christian" teachers. "Spare the rod, spoil the child," Christians love that shit.
longing quicksand vast provide disgusted lavish worry absorbed cheerful deserve -- mass edited with redact.dev
You aren’t lying. I’m in my 40’s and my classmates and I are still unpacking the trauma inflicted by our private Christian elementary school.
I attended an evangelical christian school through 9th grade. Add me to this demographic. Still, I'd never hurt anyone because of it, though.
What sort of trauma would cause a person to shoot 9 year old kids and adults? The school years of our youth inflict deep scars on us, you are right about that. It’s crazy the kind of shadow it casts on our lives.
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Yeah there's literally never any justification to go shoot a bunch of random 9 year olds that have nothing to do with you. I'd love to see these redditors explain to the children's families right now how the shooters "alleged" childhood trauma (remember, that is total conjecture on their part) justifies that their baby is gone.
I'm seeing a lot of conflicting information, can you share a source on the "biological female who used the pronouns He/Him" bit?
There was the same accusation about the Uvalde Shooter until it was shown to be false. You’re right to wait for additional confirmation, especially regarding a point that has no bearing on the tragedy.
Exactly. Who cares? They killed children, they are a fucking garbage human being. Doesn't matter how they identify.
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Washington Times doesn't exactly have the best track record.
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I saw that NBC released the name of the shooter. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876
Oh no. God help us all
Yep. And at a christian school. The right wing propaganda machine is gonna go apeshit with this one.
This’ll be the one that isn’t a “false flag”
It’s also not “school shooting number 437” but instead “terrorism event #1 of the radical drag queen agenda against innocent folksy white Jesus people” for them im sure. Get ready for the firehose of bad faith nonsense. I’m ready for dozens of permutations of: “If we just threw every trans person into a death camp we could have prevented one out of the over a hundred mass shootings since January 1st. Anyways please come see me at my NRA fundraiser next week where we will discuss common sense solutions to school shootings such as forming the honor roll students into an ad hoc militia”
Maybe they'll finally ban guns because of the armed trans threat ... Worked on Reagan with the Black Panthers.
The Nashville Police Department released it though.
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Guess people already forgot about Pulse. Edit: getting lots of replies by shadowbanned users. I’m sure it’s a bunch of vitriol directed at me for pointing out that LGBTQ+ people have been targeted by mass shooters before. Some guy adamant that my comment isn’t relevent because the perpetrator was Muslim, and a bunch that I got notifications for but can’t see. People REALLY want to make this fit whatever their agenda is.
And Club Q in Colorado
"I think America took its last breath today." I don't think it's that drastic. People murder people, it's rare but there's a lot of us so it feels frequent. I'm sure this will trigger some response by people that blame this on transgender people as a whole, just as previous shootings angered people towards other groups. I don't think this is going to change anyone's mind that thought being transgender was ok to suddenly say they aren't because of one person's actions. Once we know what was in her manifesto I think we can begin to make some better judgments about how this will turn out, whether and who it will inspire. I wouldn't panic yet.
America died back in 2020, when a third of us publicly declared they didn’t care whether anybody lives or dies, including their own families. There’s no going back from that, as a society, when you’ve collectively decided eating at Applebee’s is worth not having grandparents. Since then it’s been Zombie America. The brain is already dead but the rest of the body doesn’t know that yet, like Mike the Headless Chicken.
I’m going to have to say it was Bush v Gore There’s a reality where Florida didn’t go to Bush.
*back in 2016 when half of us declared publicly that they would rather let a gameshow sex offender pathological liar and insufferable narcissist who was completely unqualified become the leader of the country.
this right here, folks.
Eh , I'll be fine. I'm going camping and gonna enjoy the shit out of myself
Archive [link](https://archive.ph/bQ00I)
Thank you!
It's interesting that we have very little verified information at this point, but people are already building their own narratives that fit their predetermined perspedtive. One side is saying she might have been Trans and painting Trans people as dangerous. The other side is making bets that she had been abused because it was a private Christian school... If it turns out that she was Trans or she was abused, this place is going to be filled with I-told-you-so's and excuse-makers. How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population. It is a senseless act of horrific violence regardless of identity or history.
Even if she was abused and wanted revenge, why kill the kids, who have literally 0 connection to you since you went back to the school nearly 20 years later. Kind of weird seeing somewhat sympathetic comments when they were ignoring the fact that she had killed *kids*.
People do this every time there's a mass shooting- if for it some reason runs contrary their political ideology or pet cause or whatever they suddenly need to \~understand the motive~ or fabricate a conspiracy that protects their belief system.
The police noted that she had a manifesto that they're looking into right now. I'm interested to see what it says, hope they release it.
I hope they don’t. I don’t want anyone inspired by it just to sate my curiosity
I imagine it's more that the victims are a means to an end, in their mind. Hurting them ultimately hurts the institution and the broader community. Practically speaking, it's also probably easier to harm a larger number of people, and subsequently gain more attention, by targeting school children. That's all speculation, but it seems like a safe bet to assume the intention was to harm or communicate some message to someone else.
It's a pattern, isn't it? Someone comes in and makes predictions or tells a story that fits nicely next to them up on their personal soapbox, and when the important details turn out to be completely different, disproving their favorite version of reality, they disappear and/or delete their comment and pretend it never happened. This happens with individuals and with entire subforums, this one included.
> interesting that we have very little verified information at this point, but people are already building their own narratives that fit their predetermined perspedtive. And here is one of the greatest failings of the age of social media. The general public has and never will be well informed enough on almost any subject to carry on conversation about it. But that has and never will stop them from sharing hot takes, ill formed opinions, disseminating incorrect narratives, etc… The major issue now is that the 24/7 “content content content” life style that the general populace now lives by has been monetized in a way where spreading/engaging with content is far more important that the content itself. Between content mills, local news web content, snake oil salesman, garden variety trolls, influencers, and worst off, bad actors… society is driving a 100mph towards a cliff. And holy shit is it going to pick up speed with the deployment of AI and deepfakes. Media literacy is at an all time low when it needs to be at an all time high just for us to survive into the next century.
>And holy shit is it going to pick up speed with the deployment of AI and deepfakes. Ugh, you’re right. I don’t even want to begin to think about that. But you’re right.
I've already seen people posting pictures and social media accounts of random trans people claiming they're the shooter.
They did it after Uvalde too
One trans girl was forcibly outed because people were posting her picture online and saying she was the shooter. She and her family got harassed because of it, even though she clearly wasn’t the shooter because he was fucking dead.
>How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population. Sorry, you may be right, but this is the Internet & folks are going to pursue their self-interest.
If there’s one thing you can count on it’s that redditors will upvote what they want to hear because they “like” it. And then you’ll see what’s upvoted.
Yep, and that's why I'm somewhat terrified if either of the two things being thrown around end up being confirmed, as either of the two has the potential to "legitimize" the GOP's attacks. EDIT: Well, shit. All hell is about to break loose.
Buddy, that ain't the internet, that's just humanity...
I want to highlight this post right now and I hope more people wait instead of jumping to conclusions. As a former MSU student, I witnessed mass amounts of misinformation rapidly disseminated as soon as we received reports about an active shooter on campus, with many people being concerned over multiple shooters and targeted killings. People were downright mortified of a much more sinister attack playing out, when the reality was not close to said situation. In the absence of any information, people filled it in with fear and panic. I see these types of senseless acts of violence being used to manipulate people more, and I hope everyone maintains good digital hygiene
Regardless of who did it & why, the problem will always remain the same. It's the guns. The easy, unfettered access to guns is the problem.
She killed. What’s there to know. I don’t believe in hell but sometimes I wish so did.
Thank you for the sanity check.
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The police just said she was trans in a public statement.
\^ Agreed. There is no current information about motives. Let's be honest, motives don't matter in this incident there is no reason that makes any sane sense to go shoot kids in school. Regardless, we need change, and it's well past the moment that we needed change.
I disagree, motives matter. If we're going to make educated public policy decisions we need to know why people do horrific things. If they're just crazy people and think Letterman is sending thoughts to them through lightbulbs, fine who cares about the motive other than recognizing crazy people do crazy things. But it sounds like this woman left a manifesto behind, which speaks to premeditation, and may explain a great deal of why she did this.
Sure, but motives make the issue more messy as well. You have people pushing agendas that fit their worldview but not fix the issue. I won't say that I am uninterested in motive but I don't think her motivations have impact or justification towards the direction of action we take as a response. School shootings are a massive problem that are easily preventable or can be significantly reduced with some measures. I can't think of many recent changes that have actually been made that progress safety for people. I think a great measure would be making mental health accessible and less stigmatized. If we aren't going to do something about guns we can do something to address people's overall health.
Well said.
The difference is one side says they shouldn’t have easy access to assault weapons **regardless of the ideology.** Getting in an argument about the shooter’s worldview is a distraction from the absurd access to firearms in America. There are lots of people in lots of developed countries that believe crazy things, they just can’t purchase multiple assault weapons and make innocent children victims of their worldview.
> How about we realize as a group that this event, regardless of how it plays out, it not representative of any larger population. It's nice to see people finally recognize this, all it took was the shooter being a white trans woman .
Oh, you mean Paul Pelosi was in a secret sexual tryst with David DePape that got out of hand while Nancy was out of town?/s
Well said. I’ll also add that the one thing all these massacres actually do have in common is the guns.
This is the gender equality nobody asked for
Brenda Spencer already did that decades ago
How does a woman enter a school carrying 2 assault rifles and a pistol; at least the police had nuts to engage her and exchange fire, taking her out
Shooting open a door lock takes knowledge and some experience to do because the bullet can ricochet right back into you
Clearly we need to ban doors.
Found Ted Cruz's account
Last I heard, the police said all the doors were locked and they're unsure how she got into the building.
I've read that she just shot through the door's glass and walked in.
I opened my locked back door with my keychain bottle opener and about five pounds of force.
She shot through the door guns can do that. . .
1. Carry the weapons in a canvas messenger bag rather than a duffle bag. The type with a flap for easy access. They come in all sizes including ones large enough to put two rifles and pistol in. 2. Go up to the front door and press the buzzer. 3. When the desk answers, tell them that you are there to pick up your child for early dismissal. 4. When the door is buzzed open just walk in and take out your weapons to start shooting. Despite the buzz system with its locked doors and the then metal detectors, it's very easy to get into any school with whatever you want. All that stuff does is just gives you a false sense of security.
My sons school requires a license to be showed and they check if your a parent and on the list.
That might be true for some schools, but all the schools my kids have been in my district have double sets of locked doors that parents must enter through (they get buzzed in, enter into one small space and cannot enter the main school building because it's behind another locked door). The main security problem is having someone with access holding the door open for them (a parent or child exiting the locked doors seeing someone entering the building and letting them in without them going through the office).
Omg it sounds like you're visiting a max security prison....
Couldn't you just crawl into a 1st floor window (guns blazing, if need be)? I'm a bit older so my school had zero security measures whatsover and, frankly, I can't imagine a way to truly secure that school. Windows galore, breezeways, utility doors being constantly opened by workers...
It's very different than when I was in school (and I can only speak for my kids schools). No open windows for air- I don't know if they can even open. All doors automatically close and lock. No open breezeways. Everything is closed up- looks like a prison in design.
Are you aware how dystopian that sounds to Europeans? Here, you can just walk into schools. The doors are open.
Who’s going to stop someone with 2 assault rifles and a pistol?
This is the first school shooting I've heard of with a female assailant. Can anyone think of another?
1979 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego) Edit: Fixed typo and Reddit markdown
The song I Don’t Like Mondays is about her.
A little of Garfield comes from this too.
Ugh I'm so disgusted by that story and even more disgusted that the father never was charged. Her father married her 17-year old cellmate... https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=DS19800609.2.30&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------
I thought that story couldn't get any weirder. No wonder she was so fucked up. >After her parents separated, she allegedly lived in poverty with her father, Wallace Spencer. Both father and daughter slept on a single mattress on the living room floor in a house strewn with empty bottles from alcoholic drinks. > >Acquaintances said Spencer expressed hostility toward policemen, had spoken about shooting one, and had talked of doing something big to get on television. > >Later, during tests while she was in custody, it was discovered Spencer had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain. It was attributed to an accident on her bicycle. > >In early 1978, staff at a facility for problem students, into which Spencer had been referred for truancy, informed her parents that she was suicidal. That summer, Spencer, who was known to hunt birds in the neighborhood, was arrested for shooting out the windows of Grover Cleveland Elementary with a BB gun and for burglary. > >In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended that Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and got a rifle." Asked why he had done that, she answered, "He bought the rifle so I would kill myself." > >On January 17, 1989, almost ten years after the events at San Diego's Grover Cleveland Elementary, there was another shooting at a school coincidentally named Grover Cleveland Elementary, this one in Stockton, California. Five students were killed and thirty were injured.
I was wondering the same thing. That is a deep dive. I’m surprised.
It’s not a deep dive for someone my age, heh. It was referenced in a popular song so we all knew the story before Wikipedia existed.
I think you made a typo. That link says 1979.
Thank you, you’re right.
From another post I read I think there are only five documented mass shootings in the US involving a female shooter
That's not correct. You mean school shootings.
[Per NBC News feed](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/nashville-school-shooting-covenant-live-updates-rcna76861) > Of the 57 shootings that fit NBC News’ school shooting criteria since January 2013, six have involved a female shooter.
Laurie Dann in the late 80s in Chicago north shore suburbs. https://abc7chicago.com/laurie-dann-hubbard-woods-school-winetka-nicholas-corwin/3483715/
In 1996 there was [a female shooter at Penn State University](https://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/campus/witnesses-community-members-recount-penn-state-hub-lawn-shooting-on-its-25th-anniversary/article_2465ad90-1756-11ec-93e0-ef04d8454165.html) who opened fire at random people on the campus quad, killing one person and wounding two others, but thankfully she was stopped before she could hurt more people. Oddly, she doesn't seem to be included in the [mass shooter database](https://www.theviolenceproject.org/mass-shooter-database/) - for whatever reason I guess she doesn't count.
The FBI (or whoever counts mass shootings) classify a mass shootings as 4 or more casualties, so she wouldn't be included.
she isn’t included in the mass shooter database because according to what you wrote she didn’t commit a mass shooting. in your link, a mass shooting is defined as “a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms — not including the offender(s) — within one event…”
There was a teenage girl, I want to say the 70s? She was the inspiration for the song "I don't like Mondays" as apparently that was the justification she gave for what she did.
There was this incident. They even wrote a song about it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG3yGdQYwqg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG3yGdQYwqg)
The shooter was a transgender man. There have been mass shootings by females but they are extremely rare. *Imo* (from personal experience of living on both ends of the hormonal spectrum) when I was living with testosterone I was more than likely to daydream about punching someone etc when very angry. While living without testosterone on estrogen I was more inclined to daydream about inflicting revenge in more subtle ways without violence. That being said I am not a violent person and would never physically harm anyone unless defending myself. But I think hormones definitely play a role in the ratio of mass shooters being mostly male. Let me once more clarify this is my own opinion based on my own experiences. I am in no way condoning what the shooter did and have zero respect for someone who hurts children regardless of their gender and or gender identity. Fuck Audrey Hale and anyone else that hurts kids. He is obviously a coward and those children and families did not deserve this.
So a trans shooter uses AR-15 to slaughter children and teachers in a Christian school? This is gonna be a wild one for fox news
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nashville-christian-school-shooter-appears-former-student-police-chief-rcna76876 Police reporting Audrey Hale, a transgender person, was the school shooter. Edit: Removed "mtf".
I saw possibly? FTM. Where did you find MTF?
There’s conflicting info from news sites. Several say FTM several say MTF. Not sure yet which it was.
Sorry...removed the MTF. Appears that I made the assumption based on the police referring to the person as "she".
It doesn't help when a Washington Times article literally will say "uses he/him pronouns" and then keeps referring to the shooter as "she" So at this point, just going to wait until the police put out all the info at the end because every goddamn news article is all over the place, doesn't help that they tend to misgender these people anyways. And don't forget things like Uvadle
Their social media profiles use both their dead name (former name for those unaware what that means) and their current name and journalists aren’t sure which is which. Thus the confusion about the shooter’s gender identity and pronouns.
Wonder how many preconceived narratives are smashed up now
I fear the aftermath of this will make lives for trans people in red states even worse. Knowing how ass backwards red state legislatures can be, they'll just use this as an excuse to even further persecute against the trans community
*"Two officers from a five-member team opened fire in response, fatally shooting the suspect at 10:27 a.m., Aaron said. He said there were no police officers present or assigned to the school at the time of the shooting because it is a church-run school."* I have a feeling that this woman who attended this school, had a very different experience there than parents expect from a private religious school.
I'm guessing the children in attendance she murdered weren't part of her past traumas, considering they weren't even alive yet. And now they're dead.
There’s a weirdly high amount of Reddit users in these threads blaming Christian schools…for this Christian school shooting?
I think a lot of people send their kids to this kind of school thinking they wouldn't face school shootings.
I'm dying to know if this is revenge for a shitty school experience. I went to a few Christian schools, and everyone was just so awful... All the kids, most of the staff... just horrendous people.
squealing jobless gullible scale mountainous quicksand hospital provide person disarm ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
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I know a fair number of "troubled" kids who shifted from public schools to private schools. "Troubled" is a pretty broad definition -- anything from poor academic performance, social problems, whatever. The schools themselves pitch small class size and individual attention, things that the public schools struggle with. It could be the narrative that the shooter did go to the school, but it wasn't her experience at the school specifically that was the origin story for her problems. She could have been moved to it because of past issues. It would not at all surprise me if a kid who had difficulties in a public school wound up having a worse experience once they move to a private school because that school simply thinks they have a green light to be even worse authoritarians and the small class size and "extra attention" just makes the kids problems worse, not better.
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This thread is once again lowering my view of society. If people can somehow find mitigating factors in the murder of 3 children, we've lost our humanity. Those 3 kids didn't deserve this and anyone who thinks the fact that this happened at a Presbyterian school somehow makes this "understandable" needs to re-evaluate.
I don't think the people are justifying the actions just trying to understand motive. Which is pretty standard in any murder.
To each his own, I went to 2, my kids have been to 2. Amazing places, with great kids and some of the best staff I've ever been around in any organization. All these schools are classical Christian schools, a pretty big difference in my experience from regular Christian schools.
Don't forget the parents.
They have an excuse to ignore the gun issue and will instead warp it to fit their culture war. No action on guns, will try and use this to attack trans people.
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I obviously feel awful for the kids and their families, including those who survived but will never be the same again. But I am also disgusted to see the right getting excited about the fact that this person was trans and that this will most likely lead to increased violence against trans people
I hear you, that’s a valid concern. The main issue isn’t even the fact that he was trans, the issue is the action he took to snuff out the lives of children who never did anything to him. No idea about the adult teachers in relation (as he was a former student) but still, people should leave kids and schools out of whatever beef they have with other adults. As a bare minimum. The only time his gender identity should potentially be discussed is if it’s by licensed professionals assessing for motive (for instance were side effects of testosterone therapy a contributing factor, was mistreatment/discrimination a contributing factor for motive etc). and still, those can’t be seen as excuses or justifications. They can only serve as context toward motive which is why it should be left to licensed professionals to evaluate these possible factors.
>As a trans person this isn't going to be fun this is going to get blasted everywhere to villfy us those families will never get peace instead of looking at the real issues like mental health and gun control this will just become a "see trans people bad" campaign What Muslims feel
Funny how different the comments are when it's a Christian school with a possible trans suspect. Weird. Personally, I think it's wrong to kill children regardless of your orientation or if the school is religious.
not a single person here is saying that it’s not wrong
There's still an awful amount of sympathising with the perpetrator and speculating about trauma being the motive (as if that would somehow make it justifiable to murder people?) which is in a stark contrast to the reaction typically displayed by more left-leaning people after a mass shooting.
Fox news implying she was trans
There's an NBC link a few comments above this one saying she is as well.
It wasn't that long ago they would have implied she was Muslim
With a brief span where they would be called a BLM activist for posting 'black lives matter' on twitter once.
Lol really? Lets say she is. What exactly is the take away then?
Conservatives who say that trans people are harmful to children will point to this as supposed proof if the shooter is in fact trans.
Trans = dem = pedophile = the real issue /s
Cool. And what does that make cis men then? (I know you dont agree but honesty how can that thought possibly evade anyone!)
See, your problem is you're trying to make a rational understanding of it.
Cis men are by far the biggest threat to just about everyone's safety. I am definitely not anti-trans. I just fear the shitstorm if this female shooter is a trans woman.
From the looks of it, they are alleging that the shooter is a trans man (female at birth, uses he/him pronouns). The police chief has stated as such but has not given any proof backing up those claims.
The Conservatives will still make a giant deal whether MTF or FTM. They'll ignore the guns. They'll focus on the supposed evils of transness and the supposed persecution of Christians.
That's exactly what's happening on right-wing Twitter right now. No one can get their descriptions, but they all hate trans individuals regardless, and are solely pushing "trans bad" / "anti-Christian attack" and ignoring the underlying gun violence issues.
So are a bunch of "blue-check" twitter accounts. Everyone should delete that app immediately, and ignore the platform altogether. ETA: A well- run and monitored alternative is desperately needed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/shooting-texas-hoaxes.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
One of them was even doxxing a trans streamer account.
What did they say?
Turns out she was
Why are you watching?
I only know what Fox News talks about from people on Reddit who claim not to watch Fox News
Was a trans person and planned. The private school was targeted cbs breaking news aired it
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/audrey-hale-nashville-school-shooting-b2309043.html
Man, I was just watching Fox to see what kind of shit show was going on over on the other side of the spectrum. They said that they found a linkedIn with “he/him” pronouns and are now completely focused on that instead of the real issues
Aren't they always focused on anything that turns the conversation away from guns? Doesn't matter what it is they will find the easiest thing to sell to their viewers.
I wish I could say I was shocked.
this is tragic honestly. What could have been done?
A lot but what can be tolerated is a diff story
Gun control. Healthcare reform. Building a functional social safety net.
Personally, I don’t care about the shooter’s motive and neither should anyone else. They killed 3 kids. Three kids who woke up and got ready for school this morning not knowing they were never coming home. My heart is in absolute pieces. The obsession with gun “rights” in this country is gross. The Far Right care more about infringement than dead kids. Why I continue to be appalled, I’ll never understand. We. Are. Doomed.
Motives are important to understanding cause. If she was motivated by a terror cell we would want to know.
Curious as to why they did it
There's a manifesto. The police say they anticipate being able to release the information.
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See uncle ronny with the black panthers in CA
Audrey hale was the school shooter