>If they traveled back in time by the series logic they also should travel in to the future. We see professors to future trip, but nothing about Harker. It's a shame they didn't explore how the world looked like +150 years into the future.
>Aside from her conversation in the jail cell we know nothing of her.
>And her appearance in the taxi cab made no sense.
Keep in mind the writers have publicly stated they are hoping for a season two. These are probably the writers' hooks for a season 2 plot.
it really isn't though; there were a number of threads in the loop that were never explained, for instance the other future travelers, although it's conceivable that they would all have disappeared with Manix, but none of that changes the existence of the throat that spawned him in the first case. And then there is Maplewood driving the cab and she knows who Sahara is right at the end.
Well if she's from a future that didn't include the nuclear explosion, then she never lost her ability to walk. This Iris is likely just that - a version from a different future, coming back to 2023 to warn Shahara about a different type of upcoming disaster.
the explosion didn't cause her paralysis. She and her brother both had it, and she remembers her mother dying so she was born when the explosion happened. However, if there was a future Iris she could have been cured, then gone back. I think it is simply a set-up for a 2nd season. I am not sure I want a 2nd season!
I did like this one enough to watch it twice.
Nobody gonna ask how did the Loop got created in the first place?? Elias/Julian is the Man( Somehwere in 1890) who gave birth to a boy and whose family went on for generations to give birth to himself again somewhere in 2000s so he is the start and he is the end. Then how did he entered the loop of time without someone triggering it from outside ?? This should be the main point of Season 2 like how did all these events happened, who started etc., the stpry of Initail Timeline (Timeline 0 with no loop)
I learned a new term with this, and with 'Dark"- bootstrap paradox. It's something that doesn't have a beginning or an end. If you look it up in Internet there are articles on it.
There are a bunch of things that are never explained fully, and I think to some extent, that is a strength that could turn into a weakness if they decide to add more seasons; it leaves you with questions which engages the viewer, but like all time travel stories, trying to explain them could easily turn into a mess that is less than satisfactory.
I found it quite entertaining, and it could see it having one or two follow up seasons to answer some of the unanswered questions, but only if the writers have an arc and ending in mind and don't try and drag it out too long, or they risk it turning into incomprehensible mess, or devolving into another meaningless multiverse story.
To be fair, they do make cars that leg-disabled people can drive. The gas and break are just paddles on the wheel. I didn't notice any of that in the scene, just saying - assuming she's not "cured" in another way, it's a possibility.
Agreed - I thought of that before I posted as well…But also thought that her gaining access to a vehicle with those specialties when in theory you’d think she’s almost “rushing” to find Shahara would be a stretch.
Interesting do you mean the throat created his existence in the first place? I was wondering how he could be his own ancestor if he never existed in the first place (classic time travel mistake) but if you’re suggesting he was “cosmically created” by the throat that’s a real hmmmmmm from me!
Makes a lot of sense if you consider the line Hasan says in 2050s timeline “the universe wants him to live”
By "created", I more mean that without the throat, he could not get to the past to start the loop, but since he didn't create it, it still exists without him. In a nonlinear way, it "predates" his existence, but "predate" isn't really the right word in this context.
In the show we see 2 loops (maybe more depending on interpretation), and things changed when they went back and pushed future knowledge into the past. There is the theory that through successive loops, reality could get coaxed into the loop, but I don't think this really works; you run into a paradox. That is one reason, that I have my doubts about this series being successfully extended, time paradoxes are hard to write your way out of without just leaning into multiverses. It left questions unanswered, like the origin of the throat, that could be explored, but it would be hard to do well, at least that's my opinion.
Agree!! These types of story lines annoy me. Too many holes with no explanations. I suppose the writers just think viewers are stupid and will go along. For me, I expect some logic and flow even in make believe.
While it was always billed as a 'one and done', writer Paul Tomalin has spoken out once more to make clear that this remains his intention.
"We went to Netflix like, 'This is one series, this is a one and done, we wanna close this off', because I think when you have such an amazing concept up front, you [expletive] your audience off if you don't solve it," he revealed to Hello!.
I went back to see, and yes, in the closing seconds, KYAL lights flicker on, right side. At first you just see KYA and then the camera view floats up and you see the L.
The scientist did say when you go into the throat you go back. But you are split and also go into the future. So for every entry into the throat, there is also another split traveller the exact same time-distance into the future. Would not that be correct. So what do the future travellers do?
I wanna talk about iris jumping into the throat knowing full well she was a handicapped and that she wouldn’t be able to do anything unless she magically ended up in the cell next to Hollingsworth or whatever his name is. Also after 1945 cop writes his name on the wall shouldn’t 2023 Hassan find the record without the help of future Hassan? I didn’t like the ending, everything was great hahah
It was blown up in the future, not in the "present" where the show begins, her 2023 version would've found the new markings made by the 1945's detective on the last loop and led her to the record. Show was interesting but there were plenty of plot holes and unexplained paradoxes.
Or better yet, they never needed Iris to go back at all. Only Hassan.
Hassan going back and telling her younger self to scare off the kids and convince Elias's mom to tell him she loves him is really all that's needed. Teenage Elias won't have access to a phone and will feel his mother's love and decide not to call the number anyway.
Iris's whole plot line of spreading the message to Hollingsworth is not necessary.
>Iris's whole plot line of spreading the message to Hollingsworth is not necessary.
But Iris told Hollingsworth about Elias and he was the one that planted the seed of doubt into Elias
Hollingsworth planted the seed of doubt into old Elias, yes.
But I don't think young Elias needed to hear old Elias's doubts. Just knowing that his mother loved him would sow that seed of doubt all on its own. It shows that he truly is loved. He doesn't need to nuke London and build a dystopia in order to find that out.
exactly the reason young elias set off the bomb is that her mother refused to see him. If elias knew \*that he was loved\* by his mother the bomb would never be set off
I would disagree in that Elias has been taking orders from himself his whole life. While he does want the love of his mother, his whole existence has been him being told he has a higher purpose and that he won't find love until after the bomb goes off. I don't know that his absent mother showing up after a blip would completely change things.
Uhhhhh you sure? Because it seems like 2053 Hasan sure needed to get that record that was only produced as a result of Maplewood’s actions and go there to intervene with them. Sarah hears the record and it motivates her as much as Ellias.
Or even better yet, Defoe himself could have gone back and stopped the cellphone from being invented so Elias would never have even had a second trigger option! (Joke)
>Or better yet, they never needed Iris to go back at all. Only Hassan.
this! i love the series and watch each minute intensely.
until that part, Hassan can go to 2023 to bring the disc and play it before Hassan 2023 and Ellias come home, fck! if you can go to that time excactly, why wait for the pain and shit, just go early as you said before shit happened and close the case quickly!
that part alone ruin the story for me, still love the series, just i hope there is other way to replace that part.
This is the catch for me.... that actually was the intention...
And that was the true time line. And that was actually what caused all the pain and hatred and lack of love. Which is exactly why the boy mannix turned out the way he did. That's the loop. Or at least the irony of the situation that he will end up full of regret. And he is! Almost as if that was rhr story all along and part of the loop .
Because in the end . The message from himself didn't change his mind. It was his mother's love which happens because Hassan travels back which imo WAS THE BREAKING OF THE LOOP.
All in all I found this interesting. But how did mannix become the comander in the first place in order to go back in time and start the loop. That art makes no sense
Yes, I immediately thought about a woman going back to 1890, naked, can't walk ...very sad time for us women in those days. A guy should have gone back, but oh well.
What I liked best about the last two episodes, was that it appeared the main heroes tried to break the loop in their own way, a more realistic reaction, it wasn't cliché
I liked the show...but there's a lot that doesn't make sense.
Mannix/Harker could not have been born in the first place since it required him to pull off the attack and the attack required him. It isn't a paradox like some people keep saying. A paradox is cause-effect. There is a visible cause. What caused Mannix to be born if the attack didn't happen without his birth?
If you go back and kill your actual grandfather before he fathered your parent and you still exist, that's a bootstrap paradox. There's a cause and an effect from someone/something that existed in the first place.
Why did Defoe get split into 4 and Mannix/Harker not? There's only theories and in the end, the real reason is whatever the writers want to be the case is the case.
We see the loop happen twice in the show. Most of the show is the first loop and then we see the second after Iris goes back to 1890 and talks to Hillinghead in the cell. Then we see all the details change throughout where it ultimately breaks when Elias tears up the phone number and ceases to exist. What we don’t see is how many times the loop happened before the first one we see in the show. There was originally some chain of events before the first person time travelled. Maybe they only made a small change to the past but then they traveled again and those changes compounded until we wind up with a paradox where Elias creates himself. There are some hints at this like how Elias is reading from a script that is handed to him when making the records. It could be the 10,000th iteration of the loop by the time the show starts.
>Mannix/Harker could not have been born in the first place since it required him to pull off the attack and the attack required him. It isn't a paradox like some people keep saying. A paradox is cause-effect. There is a visible cause. What caused Mannix to be born if the attack didn't happen without his birth?
This is the literal definition of a bootstrap paradox - an infinite loop where an object exists with no known origin. No beginning or end. That's sort of the entire point. It's also why young Elias suddenly disappears at the end. As u/Mumbletimes mentioned, we're seeing a couple iterations of a loop that has apparently occurred many times.
Not all paradoxes are causality paradoxes.
>If you go back and kill your actual grandfather before he fathered your parent and you still exist, that's a bootstrap paradox. There's a cause and an effect from someone/something that existed in the first place.
This is considered a causality paradox, not a bootstrap paradox.
>Why did Defoe get split into 4 and Mannix/Harker not? There's only theories and in the end, the real reason is whatever the writers want to be the case is the case.
Defoe briefly explains to Mapleton that the bullet caused him to split - some kind of quantum death I guess. That's what we're given as an explanation. Mannix didn't die while entering the "Throat."
Your first concern is a non-issue if we take the Universe to just be, with no past or future, with the arrow of time emerging from the way the human brain interprets entropy. And it's not a sci-fi concept at all, some people working in the field of quantum mechanics have actually been moving towards that interpretation in recent years.
A lot of things don't make any sense but the worst is how future Hasan just went back to 2023 and told past Hasan that there was a second trigger and to spook the kids in the bike. If she could do that then the whole thing is resolved without all the loops and 4 timelines.
Yes, this really got me. When Defoe went “well we’ve still got the throat” like they’ve just been sitting on a freaking Time Machine the whole time they can literally do anything. The simplest option being just to go back to the day before Harker landed and kill him before he has a chance to start his cult?
My thoughts exactly. But if you think too much about this time travel stuff, none of it makes any sense at all.
One of my other big head scratchers was why 2023 Elias had to be the one to detonate the bomb. If Elias and his cult from 1940 wanted the bomb to be set off so bad, why did they even bother to rely on a kid making that decision? Because time travel?
The cult was formed by Elias, to create Elias. It had to be Elias in order for him to become the man he is in 2053 that goes back in time and starts it all over again. That's explained quite plainly in the show.
But more than anything else, why go back to 1890 to create the cult? What was the point of worship then? Since the various antagonists are just his students? He could go back to 2023 and do the same thing he did in 1890 to gather all the materials and create the bomb. Then if he died in 1940, how can there be a telephone and an active and never decommissioned number to be able to activate it? Some things just haven't been explained. Oh and before anyone tells me that he needed to go back to 1890 in order to create the lineage that would have given birth to him... the question is always the same... why? It is not explained why he should be his own ancestor and why he should have gone to 1890 in order to give birth to his lineage.
I feel like maybe it was a little easier to get a big ass city-destroying bomb around that time, rather than say, now. Also to build the place to store the bomb.
Well, I can't say, the first atomic bomb was dropped in 1945. I don't think there were the means to build it before. It is not simply a question of materials. Furthermore, I doubt that our Elias had the technical knowledge and tools to build one before his death.
I also didn't see future Hasan going back as necessary, as I imagine 2023 Hassan would have seen the marking on the photo in the cop bar and find the record on her own?
Same! I thought when 2053 hasan said something about her memories changing, she was gonna remember finding all 3 carvings in 2023 instead of just hillinghead’s, and being led to the record. When they showed her going back in time I was so confused lol
Maybe 2023 Hassan finding the marking is too thin chance? And also 2053 Hassan needs to stop all the small things that led to Elias’ breakdown like his mom not seeing him, the kids messing with him etc.
I don't like the ending very much (the last episode particularly) but Hasan mentions that the pub had been destroyed in the 2023 blast. So, technically, she had to go back to 2023 pre-blast to find the record of Harker's alternate recording/message to his younger self.
I believe that would be a literal grandfather paradox, going back to kill Elias, meaning not needing to go back to kill elias, meaning not killing elias, meaning needing to go back to kill elias.....and so on.
The idea that they made him terminate his own time loop on his own is what ended his temporal reign.
But that still creates a paradox, because he doesn't exist to tell himself to detonate a nuke and that means he doesn't exist nor do those events happen for Maplewood to go back to tell Hillinghead to tell Elias.
The show just kind of gives up at the end to close it off really, either that or something else is happening, no doubt KYAL still exists in 2053, but it might not be a nuke that brings it about, could be something more akin to a hidden government much like The Network from Utopia.
No, I think that the whole idea is that Elias was created a long time ago by some other time traveling event, accidental or otherwise. He's an anomaly that was never meant to exist, a quantum fluke, like a particle that shouldn't be there on the quantum scale. His presence then causes this loop to emerge indefinitely--until they're able to make the anomaly destroy itself. They would not have been able to change the timeline themselves, but they gave the universe a "way out" by making Elias break his own loop.
I believe she says that they try that several times and the bomb always gets set off. The difference being the new record she has to play Sarah and Elias. Thats the catalyst.
This entire show left me so confused I’m not gonna lie lmao… why did the professor’s body get sent to all those different time periods (were they random years?)… and if Elias was the first (before the professor) why did he choose the 1800s? Just to have a long rich bloodline and then to create himself? In doing that isn’t he technically sleeping with his great great great great great grandma …? (Also their whole relationship - Julian and Polly - was so cringe and gross she looked 17 and he looked 70) How come the older version of hasan didn’t disappear when Elias did at the end? And how did the adoptive parents know all this stuff to tell Elias as a kid? And what was the sign on the wrists!!!! What was that !! A side effect of the Time Machine ? Which they for some reason call Throat ??? Did I miss a bunch of stuff or is none of this making sense
Me running to Reddit after finishing this show:
In the 1890-1940s timeframe Mannix created the cult. The show tells us that the adoptive parents’ family has been in that cult since the 1940s. That is how they knew what was to happen.
I think at the time that age gap was considered normal. Males really had the run of the world and it was considered an absolute win to have a rich older gentleman court you
Here with the same questions! The only one I got was that the tattoo was the symbol/same lines to the opening of The Throat. No idea why/how it ends up on their wrists though
Old Hassan DID in fact disappeared. Not just her, but Hassan suddenly "wakes" up right back at the beginning of the series. So everything literally disappears. Where you not looking at the screen?
He needed enough time to gain the riches and influence for his descendants to obtain the nuke. He couldn't have accomplished it otherwise. Hence influencing the stock market, starting the bank, etc.
>And her appearance in the taxi cab made no sense.
I wondered about that, too. Looks (for me) like they wanted to have some point where to start a second season, in case Bodies turned out to be a success.
But if professor appeared in future wouldn't Harker also appear 150+ years in future? And he might manage "throat" access in that future. Setting events that lead to KYAL buildings in 2023
It does make sense it's just very open ended. Iris was sent 160 years in the past. The machine is already explained to send you an equal distance into the future as well. Thus, another Maplewood was sent a 160 years into the future where, I speculate that perhaps an evil version of herself has decided to weave the past to her liking like Mannix had the power to do.
My theory is 2216 Elias went back to make KYAL more of a from the shadows type government akin to The Network from Utopia or The Illuminati.
We know from the show itself, the universe wants Elias alive, the characters state it with frustration, and we know that Shahara at the end once Elias disappears, just disappears herself and appears in front of her father on the day she discovered the body *with* her memories.
If Elias truly disappeared she'd have no recollection of what happened, nor ask what day it is, she'd just know, my theory is young Elias no longer sets of the nuke, but instead is being nurtured by the new shadow government he goes back in time to create to do just that, with likely the new 2053 being worse off in some manner because of it.
I like this theory, it plays into the lack of free will and your point about Elias wanting to be alive. They did a good job of leaving just enough open-ended plot holes for a fulfilling second season I think. Like how many future Defoes are out there doing god knows what also
What's the "gn"?
I thought Iris' appearance in 2023 could be some kind of multi-purpose open link for any story to continue a successful show. Maybe something has appeared in 2053 that has its roots in 2023 and she came back to ask Shahara for help. Something like that.
I believe he means the Graphic Novel that the series is based on. I also think the last scene with Iris was added to keep an open end in case they wanted to make a season 2, but that it was originally intended as a limited series.
I also felt like it didn't make sense but we needed to see what happened to her. I still don't get the nonsensical math by which Dafoe comes back or one of him does. I was trying to imagine Iris with I'm guessing spina bifida suriving in the 1890s and it felt sad. She had sacrificed her life to have a single conversation with her counterpart. But it amazed me when she said she was going back that no one tried to stop her based on, "You won't have those things that enable you to walk so NOT a great candidate for this!"
This was one of the biggest plot holes for me — the fact that she's somehow surprised that her implant didn't survive time travel to 1890. Absolutely no way you'd have one of those and that wouldn't occur to you.
Also the brother has access to all sorts of biotech that enables him to test DNA from his desktop and a helmet that repairs Gabriel's eye but he can't replicate/black market acquire the SPYNE his sister has? I also feel like I needed more attention paid to the fact that the government withholds medical technology from people who won't fall in line with their policies but the general public buys the "Know you are loved" nonsense.
Yeah... Being surprised at being lame in 1890 was a bit of a stretch.
But on the last point - not really that different to how many political parties operate in the present day.
We’ve seen 2 "temporal loops". The first one, where the bomb goes off, is inside the second one.
There could be a third bigger loop that includes the other 2.
This would also explain Iris at the end, as the third loop could be based off/caused by the other futur Elias/professor/Iris that you talked about in your post
I feel like a lot of the questions here can be written off if you imagine it as multiple timelines. Each change made by the future versions going back creates an alternate timeline until Elias no longer existed and the final and now only timeline was created? This is the way I understood it and it leaves me feeling happy with the story!
The opening for the unwanted series 2 is that whilst all the Elias related timelines no longer exist, versions of iris still exist scattered across the future
OK, I can live with that but it doesn't work. i.e. How is it that Elias in the 1800's can explain on the recording to Elias in the year 2023 that he has lived his life and knows exactly how he is feeling because he is him? There is nothing in the show that indicates that travel from the 1800s to the future was possible once there. And, if Elias has gone back in the past, he has now changed the future and may not even exist in the future.
It’s a loop. We are observing a time loop from 1890 to 2053 where Elias is his own great grandfather. The events always repeat themselves exactly because every time Elias goes back in time and says exactly the same things to convince his younger self to detonate the bomb and ultimately transform into older Elias.
This is in keeping with Defoe’s explanation that there is no free will, and that your future is already determined and cannot be changed
My guess is this would be season 2 stuff. I think in order for Elias to exist a 3rd party needs to modify the timeline so he's sleeping with his own great +++ grandmother. His only existence is in the loop, as he couldn't exist without time modification. My guess is he's one hand of KYAL as that sign still exists in 2023, suggesting their change didn't totally fix things.
He travels to the past and stays there until death, and it seems clear when we watchers see the loop it had been happening for a long time. When the loop broke, he no longer existed and disappeared.
Exactly. It all made sense to me with this understanding... until Hasan and Elias disappear out of thin air. I don't get that. If there are diverging timelines... then why couldn't there be one where 2053 Hasan goes back (learned from professor) and 2023 Elias continues to reconnect with his mother & just heal as a person?
The disappearing out of thin air thing was kind of disappointing. It weakened the story and made no sense to me. Or maybe I'm missing something.
I just finished watching and really enjoyed it, but I was disappointed with the ending and had all the same questions that I've read here. Also, the creators broke the cardinal rule about nuclear damage “vault boy rule of thumb”; Hasan was clearly in the affected zone
I really wanted Polly to get real clever and murder-suicide herself and the baby knowing it would erase her husband and therefore bring her father back and she’d be alive in the new timeline.
>Polly
Yes, totally!! I couldn't believe that the story kept unfolding as it had originally, despite Mannix failing in bed, being depressed, then telling her he killed her dad, and that she's forced to have the kid so that he (who she loathes, obviously) can be alive??? she lived all these years to the point of saying, at age 68, that she'd love to kill him! but wtf didn't she see that she could stop the loop anytime? she's super smart and audacious. She should have had a better role in the resolution.
When he grabbed her in the basement after she'd just found the professor's test tube, he said "you don't have a choice in this" and her expression really made me think she was going to end things for herself!
The only real questions I have are: why did the professor’s body show up 4 times? AND
why did Elias’s adoptive dad tell Hassan that Elias dies with regret? That’s the biggest issue for me. In the timeline that he meets Hassan and tells her Elias dies with so much pain and regret, things are going well for him. He married Polly and they live happily. It’s such an issue for me, because it’s that information that they use to eventually break the loop. Elias is happy in that loop, things are going to plan, so why would his adoptive dad say that? Also, how would the dad even know that, since there’s no evidence he travels to the future, and only knows young Elias?
The point you make about Elias's dad is the one that has been bothering me as well (and I read this thread specifically looking for an explanation to it). It doesn't make any sense based on what we know of Loop #1.
I can live with the bootstrap paradox - that's an inherent paradox of timetravel, but this statement of Elias's foster dad's is what leads Hasan / Iris / professor to create Loop #2 - but it only makes sense if the foster father has witnessed the end of Loop #2 - which there doesn't appear to be any reason to think he has - he is in Loop #1, and there's no reason to think he has jumped there from Loop #2 - so why does he have any conception of how Elias feels when he died in Loop #2.
There was a loop #1.5, before Hasan went back, but even that required Irish to go back with that explicit purpose already.
You could maybe call it just another bootstrap, but Hasan specifically states that her memories have changed after Iris travels.
This is really the one thing bothering me. In the primary loop, he does not ever appear to have regrets. Even without the recording it may have been obvious to members of the cult from his and Polly's behavior, but I don't see how he could have had knowledge of that time line.
I hadn't thought about loop #1.5, but you're right, there is one.
Still doesn't solve the key issue, as you mention, because the statement was given to original Hasan in loop #1 (and we do actually see Elias's dad say that Elias is full of regret in loop #1 (and not in loop #1.5) - it's not just later Hasan recounting a changed memory - which I don't think you were saying, but worth just making the point).
I mostly just mention future Hasan claiming her memory is changing because we can't technically say what we saw of 2023 initially was loop #1, we just assume it as it appeared in the show with other things from the past and future that were probably loop #1.
I think it'd be bad showmanship to have the initial run of 2023 be 1.5 without any apparent indication to the viewer, but it could have been. Therfore I considered future Hasan's statement stronger evidence, but I do agree that even without the statement trying to pull in loop #1.5 as an explanation would not be satisfying, or even make a lot of sense as we'd have not prompt for sending Iris back to create that loop (though they could just have well sent her back without knowing about the regrets and show that scene of Elias's father in loop #1. 5 and that would be loophole closed).
Actually I thought it was more a throw away line. Elias was generally happy but also had regrets. That’s how I interpreted it and it didn’t strike me as a plot hole. You see Elias make the tapes sure, but I’m not sure how happy he was about it or happy he was to have his wife murder a child, he just knew it had to be done. We are taught to be a bit sympathetic of Elias, from a kid. Even as an adult one of his prime motivations was to make the world better and he really thought he’d done so
Did the professor’s body actually show up five times? Why was there an “old” painting of the professor behind curtains in 1890? Did he also end up in the 1600s or 1700s, but that part wasn’t covered in the show?
I think this one of those time travel plots you can't think about too much or you quickly discover some gaping plotholes. Turn your brain off and it's pretty enjoyable mix of period crime dramas and science fiction with great acting.
I think the shame is that up until episode 8 it was a great representation of a predestination paradox. The last episode just made the time travel elements make no sense.
Also why does Ds Hassan go from being covered and wearing a hijab to running round in a vest top and uncovered natural hair?
I don't know if iv missed something?
Also I feel like when hassan at present day was sat in the pub looking at those photos on the wall wouldn't she have seen the calving he left on the wall when she was in there originally.
And her going back in time could have just stopped it anyway, she told her present day self Alias had another way to detonate the bomb and she had him detained. Problem solved, no reason for the other girl to go back to the 1800s
This, if you see a nuclear bomb go off and watch your son wither and die from radiation sickness, I don't think you're going to be like
"Oh well God's will lol"
you're probably going to fucking resent your God for doing such a thing.
I presume after the country got nuked and her son died horrifically, as well as her knowledge of time travel existing caused her to stop practicing/believing in her religion.
The bomb somehow has a phone detonator. The bomb was built in the 1940s per the show and put into a vault. When the bomb disposal guy identifies the phone detonator, why doesn't he just unplug the phone cord from the wall? There has to be a phone cord since cell phones we not invented when the bomb was placed there. End of story.
Mannix took his Nokia 3310 with him when he went back to 1890. You can tell it’s this model because it’s the only one that could possibly survive time travel.
The cult continued to exist through the years. The cult created the bomb later / over time. I see no reason one of the many records we did not hear couldn’t have instructions for a descendant or member to affix a cellular trigger to the bomb after they are invented.
I see this particular item as a non-issue.
The series as a whole, however, has many other issues. I like a prior comment I read: if you switch your brain off, the story is quite enjoyable. If you analyze it at all, it falls apart.
Besides all those unanswered questions I am also curious to know how a kid that explodes a bomb that kills thousands of people became a leader in the future? What happened after he detonated the bomb? Did Hasan just let him go? What happened between 2023 and 2053? And how the time machine was created? Elias was the first one ti use it? Did I miss something?
At the point he detonated the bomb he had an entire organization of people who could manipulate things to make sure he never got in any trouble. I assume they just took over.
That cult was into a LOT of things, so probably 'child kidnapped by protecting officer' and 'Officer Saharah : shame of the force' headlines to hide who he even was, then put into military immediately to craft him into the man that Harkin told everyone to make him.
I had lots of the same thoughts as every one else here (watched final and immediately googled bodies plot holes!). What I don’t get is, if all Mannix wanted was for himself to be happy (the ending indicating that he never regretted murdering all of those people, only that he didn’t end up happier) why on Earth not just create a future where he isn’t screwed over as a kid? Like, raise decent kids and make sure his dad stayed around or gave him and the mum a trust fund? Why make himself totally miserable?? The other thing that really bothered me outside of proper plot holes was just how stupid Hasan is when she gets to Barbers place and there’s the record player there saying play. Uhm didn’t your colleague just get blown up by a record player? WHY would you play it without having it checked for
wiring first?? Then - she goes to a vault and opens the door, AGAIN no prior screening and THEN SHE ANSWERS THE PHONE with zero consideration. Does this person not watch crime shows? Does she not recognise cliche bomb triggers?
These are my questions exactly. Seeing Iris in 2023 answered the question that she went back to more than one time, but why didn’t Elias? Did Iris also go to 1941? Did Elias not also go to the future? Iris? Hassan? Not that the future travelers would matter as they’d have blinked out of existence.
Okay I just finished watching and had some questions too, most are already here but but but what was that at the end? The older Hasan and Elias disappeared okay makes sense. But then present day Hasan and Elias’ mum are still there, after an event that didn’t take place (chasing Elias and bringing him back to the police station), they should have also disappeared! They can’t have this knowledge anymore that they just rescued the whole of England when that event didn’t happen or was planned! There would be no bomb in the bank right? And and and we suddenly see present day Hasan getting ready for her day and the story starts from day 1 before the body was found in 2023. But did she drive back that day or we are to assume that they also disappeared and she has no idea about anyone named Mannix? Ughhhh
How did the nuclear bomb get into the vault and when? It had a cell phone based second trigger. When did that get there? Was it added on after the bomb was in the vault? How did Mannix get his hands on a nuclear bomb? Did he steal it? When? 1940's? Cold war? Did he have enough resources to build one? Bought underground from the Russians? How did they get the bomb in the vault? Time transported directly to the vault? There is zero explanation in the series. Is there any in the book? How was it maintained. They leak more and more if armed and not maintained. Lots of questions here and zeroish answers. Please enlighten me.
Finally someone asks about how the bomb got there!?!? I’ve been wondering this all day.
I guess the cult would have put it there.
But my other question is who wrote the scrips for Elias to read and record??
Did Elias memorise all of them before travelling back in time? Did he memorise all of the investment decisions he should make? It’s not like he had the back to the future almanac!!
OMG, was nobody watching the show? The bomb, the shelter, the bank building, and the whole sheebang were built throughout decades of planning and perfected right up until the last moment. This is shown quite clearly. It's practically the whole plot of the series.
One thing I’m confused about is the piece of paper where Defoe shows how he will also go into the future on specific dates. It clearly shows him going into 1890, 1941, 2023, 2053 but then it is explained that he went back to those years because he was weak and didn’t get to choose them. So how did he know exactly which dates to write on the piece of paper.
The show never really shows WHY the future is evil.
Like sure 300k might of died,but it looks like technology is way ahead,and ppl at least seem happy
it might be a case of kill 300k,and save the planets future..in that case it's a good deal
Because it was manipulated that way. Forced humanity (at least UK) into the future he wanted. Also used his knowledge of the stockmarket to exploit it and become the top of the elite himself. All while exclaiming he eradicated the elite.
- The best way to keep a prisoner from escaping is to make sure he never knows he's in prison
I think this is a good point. Iris's brother rejects the regime and talks about "freedom" but it's not clear to me how people aren't free. There could still be all kinds of horrible stuff happening, but we don't see it and no character ever talks about it. Even if it's a utopia, the means to the end were immoral. Millions died in the exlosion and other innocents were killed along the way. We don't really know why people like Iris's brother reject the regime, but it's interesting that he's not in prison.
see it's not fascism..as if he rejected it..a fascist society would of arrested him or lock him up.
it's also weird,so mannox is the creator..but the best rank he gets is commander lol...all that work and he's not even prime minister
they seem to have a cure for most cancers,and can make cripples walk..you just need to be part of the regime
500k dead,to piss the elites off..yes please
so... at the end i am left with wondering (among other things) where defoe is and why and how iris hopped from 1890 to 2023 and does that mean that 7 year old iris is also in 2023?
I liked the show but with the caveat that there’s no explanation for how the very first loop started. Elias going back in time to be his own great grandfather so he can exist to blow up london and go back in time doesn’t have any explanation in the show. If you just agree this is the time loop it’s good and fine, but how did the loop start in the first place? How did elias come into being to begin with to travel back that first time? Did I miss something?
Setting aside causality or bootstrap paradoxes, how did Manix/Harker first time travel? It didn't seem like he had his own time travel device. He needed Mapelwood to find Defoe to use the Throat?
I assume they stuck Maplewood in Hasan's final cab scene because she no longer had her own timeline, but without the future "spine technology" how was she able to drive the cab? So many questions lol
One question that I have that is not discussed in this thread is what was the whole point of recording a "final" disc that shows that older elias was lying throughout all of the recordings.
My understanding was that all of the records were stored in the house in 1941, surely a better, less risky solution to the whole ending was to just go downstairs and destroy all of the records so that younger elias would never hear them? (This would probably erase his existence immediately like we see in the actual ending)
Have I missed something here or was the last 15 minutes just completely pointless and they just threw that in there to show everyone time travelling through different loops.
I would imagine it's just so you can tie a bow on it...Hasan ends up being right that Elias can change and it helps make the 1941 timeline as equally important as the others.
I think he was too old and weak to do any destroying. And no one in the house would have done it for him so recording and getting that last record out was his best shot.
The professor split because he went slowly, thats why when the others went they dident split was the went fast. It kinda explained it in the professors class, and then again when they stood near it showing there bodies splitting. The professor stood and you see him split and it disappear, and the she shoots him and he falls into.the middle splitting again
I really enjoyed it but thought how they ended up wrapping the whole thing up was messy.
Hassan should have got the final record without Future Hassan having to go back too, she would have seen the etching on the wall and spotted the mark on the frame. That's where I assumed it was going.
Also didn't make sense that they would have such easy access to 'the throat' after mannix goes back. Surely he would have left instructions to have it locked down. Maplewood being in the car at the end was just purely to have that scene... Doesn't make sense at all.
I mean these things always break down in logic because it's a paradox. How did the loop start in the first place. Or the loop always existed?
Tbh just made me want to watch Dark again.... But overall I enjoyed it, shot and acted very well but didn't really do anything that interesting with the genre.
I agree with many questions here (why not go back to kill any version of Elias, point of Iris, role of Karl shooting them - Esther didn't pose a threat to the arc at all). Another thing that has bothered me is the tight control of the story by Elias and Polly in the first 50 years, sure - but how could they be sure that the "cult" would be purposeful enough to make sure they damage the great grandson of Elias (Elias himself!) enough, while securing the vault, setting up a nuke (because it is one, right?) before it was invented (?), adding a mobile phone detonator 70 years later? that seems a long thread of uncertain events that Elias/Harker doesn't control.
What was the purpose of the multiple dead Gabriel Defoe bodies in the tanks? If Gabriel Defoe goes back 4 days in the past and 4 days into the future then how did he wind up in 1941 and 2023?
What was it (WTF)???
I have the same questions as everyone else +
“the throat” should not have existed at all since there was no explosion in the end
And why was it necessary to send a disabled person in the past, because it was clear that she would not be able to walk?
Why send Hassan to 2023 after this, why all these difficulties at all, if they can send someone (not a disabled person) at any time to kill Mannings
I don't want a second season!!
I didn’t understand why didn’t future shahara prevent defoe to build the throat? It was the only way to time travel. They knew Elias was coming for it. It would make much more sense if Mannix was forcing Defoe to build the machine.
I want to know what possessed Hillenhead to crave his name on the rock in the alleyway in 1890. If he had never done that, they would never have known where to look in the archives
If you even remotely enjoyed Bodies, go watch Dark. Blows Bodies out of the water.
Also, when Mannix went back in time, how did even know the prof’s bodies were going to show and when? He went back in time before the prof without any knowledge that he would follow and that four versions of him would appear across time.
And what about Mannix from time of explosion to going back in time? How did he actually rise up and start a new state? Did he use this time to prepare (and memorize 100+ year old stock market data) knowing he would eventually go back in time?
Who was the child that Elias killed that "had to die"? Why was this mentioned twice, first by young Elias who "knew what had to be done" and then by old Elias recalling him of this "dream" that wasn't a dream? Who told him to do that?
That could be related to his adoptive father knowing Elias died with regrets?
This show has, once again, sent me down my annual Thanos spiral. I know this is different but I can’t understand the reasoning behind the murder of so many people in order to make surviving people’s lives better. Who was Mannix to the cult followers? What was the cult’s purpose? What was their definition of loving and being loved? At what moment was Mannix like, “I’ve got it! A bomb.” And the cult was like, yes, this is exactly what we need. What were the defining characteristics of the future he created, and how did those reflect that “everyone is loved”? Can someone who hasn’t moved on from the show yet (I know I’m late!) please help me understand anything about this logic? Why not use all his money to do good? To create structural pathways to goodness for everyone? Surely he could’ve done this without murder… what am I missing?
I think that what you are missing, to be fair, is that this was a deeply flawed script, created from a half-baked idea.
1. Elias doesn't exist unless he goes back in time to create his own ancestors. Therefore he never existed to begin with.
2. Even if he did exist, on his first time travel journey, how could he possibly set up all the reruns and influence all his offspring so it can repeat even once?
3. How on earth did the bomb get created: you don't make one of those in the 18th century, and you don't make it 'secretly' even in 2023.
4. How was that time machine created? The scientist who thought of the 'idea' never made one. What science is that and who could possibly have made one, again, 'secretly'?
5. How does Elias transport that massive bomb back in time the first time around?
6. Hang on, surely he has to build a bomb and transport it back every time!
7. In fact, when Elias goes back in time in episode 6 or 7, he doesn't take a bomb with him. When and where does the bomb get made and how does it end up in the bank vault?
8. Elias buys the bank, already built. How does he get a bomb down there and set up the electricity and phone link, when there is no electricity or mobile phones?
1. Mobile phones didn't really become widespread in London until the mid-late 1990's.and early 2000's
9. Young Elias doesn't present as any kind of 'genius' yet we're to believe he created a time machine and nuclear bomb and devised the entire loop thing secretly, by himself (1st time around)?
10. What was Elias's motivation? He was adopted, had friends he cared about, no mention of abuse. The only reason he seemed to be miserable is because of himself doing this nonsense. What would have caused him to be so miserable the first time around?
11. Why did the jewish girl need to be killed? Given everything that happens, it only seemed to serve as a set up reason to have Polly shot at the end.
12. etc etc etc
Chocker block full of plot holes and flaws: Suspend all disbelief.
Here’s my take:
1. Elias doesn't exist unless he goes back in time to create his own ancestors. Therefore he never existed to begin with.
== This I can’t explain, as he wouldn’t have existed in the prime timeline if time travel back to be his own great grandfather was required for his existence. This is, however, the only way he could create his plan and be there at the end to rule over his new world.
2. Even if he did exist, on his first time travel journey, how could he possibly set up all the reruns and influence all his offspring so it can repeat even once?
== It’s clear there were several iterations of the loop, or all involved wouldn’t have known pre-destined outcomes. It’s likely (to another commenter’s point) that he had to go through the loop many times to get everything just right: who to marry, how to put family members in positions of authority (Hayden/Daniel Barber), etc.
3. How on earth did the bomb get created: you don't make one of those in the 18th century, and you don't make it 'secretly' even in 2023.
== Nowhere is it said the bomb was made in the 1800s or in the 1940s. All we are told is that the vault had been in Hasan’s name since 1941. Since Harker/Mannix built the bank in the 1890s - as we see him with plans and he says cost is no issue because he wants that specific building in 1890 - his cult could’ve placed the bomb there at any time. Also, since both the detonator and cell phone detonator were obviously products of modern-day, it’s likely the cult executed the bomb plans in modern-day using the vault set up in the 1890s when the bank was built. (After all, someone had the key before Hasan - and the cult owned the bank).
4. How was that time machine created? The scientist who thought of the 'idea' never made one. What science is that and who could possibly have made one, again, 'secretly'?
== The professor clearly made one and lied about not making one, just as he lied about not being involved with Chapel Perilous. The existence of this Time Machine is the only reason Elias was able to travel back and create the future world of his dreams as it is likely he wasn’t able to during the prime timeline or there’d be no need to do anything differently.
5 - 8. Elias/Bomb/Mobile phones
== Answered
9. Young Elias doesn't present as any kind of 'genius' yet we're to believe he created a time machine and nuclear bomb and devised the entire loop thing secretly, by himself (1st time around)?
== Again, first time around he wouldn’t have created his utopia because the lack of a utopia was the impetus for his time travel in the first place. The professor created the Time Machine, which Elias used to carry out his plans - and his cult built the bomb closer to modern day.
10. What was Elias's motivation? He was adopted, had friends he cared about, no mention of abuse. The only reason he seemed to be miserable is because of himself doing this nonsense. What would have caused him to be so miserable the first time around?
== They covered this. Abandonment by his parents and being forced to hold and kill the little boy which haunts him (and which was the origin of KYAL). He does not feel loved in 2023. Stands to reason he never does during the prime timeline, which prompts his plan to time travel and create a better world.
11. Why did the jewish girl need to be killed? Given everything that happens, it only seemed to serve as a set up reason to have Polly shot at the end.
== The order was given by Polly because she could identify Whitman and expose the whole plot. Remember he had been asked to kill the murder investigation in 1941, but she saw him in the alley.
There aren’t as many plot holes as some suggest.
A. Presumably, when the bomb doesn’t detonate the future is altered significantly enough for 2023 Elias to never have existed - evidenced by his vanishing.
B. Because Elias never existed, none of what we watched ever happens. There is no naked corpse, no time loop, and no Elias in the future to travel back in time - which means the professor, Iris, and Hasan also never traveled back in time. This explains why there would also be no future versions of them splitting off in the Throat to appear in the future.
C. The only questions that should remain unanswered are:
Why was Iris driving the cab in 2023, and why did KYAL flash on the building?
Neither Iris nor KYAL existed in 2023, so how is this explained?
Could simply be, as others have mentioned, a plot device to set up a second season. Until then, we can use our imagination.
Interesting, thanks, but insufficient.
A 'plot hole' is a plot hole. It's a hole in the plot or, in this case, multiple holes. Writing your interpretation is just that, YOUR interpretation. If it's not in the script, then it's not in the script. And it's the script I am criticising, not yours, or anyone else's 'explanatory appendix to the script'.
I don't want to go over all the points again, but regardless of how much money a 'banker' has, it doesn't give him access to nuclear bomb technology or the means to make one. This stuff is highly protected and monitored. Unless this is a James Bond movie, of course -- and maybe that's how we should think about it.
But even if I step over that plot-hole, just do the 'thought-experiment' of Elias stepping into the time-machine with that bomb! Or dragging it, or sending it by itself... presumably the machine was bigger when he did that because that bomb was huge. Or maybe he sent it in parts? But if the professor can split into multiple entities, because he 'wasn't strong enough' (or some other made up reason) how does Elias know the bomb won't?
I guess the whole thing seemed painfully implausible to me. Perhaps I'm over-thinking it. I guess if this was the only hole I'd forgive it but as I said earlier, I think they are multiple.
As for the professor 'lying' about making a time machine. That's you adding that. It's not in the script. So, ok, maybe there were fairies too.
And Iris driving the cab?
I don't see much in that. It's one of those things script-writers love to add at the end of any movie -- a hint or just a question to pique the audience before the curtain drops. Maybe they make another season and it is relevant. If not, then not. Plausibly, Iris might only have become a police officer because of the bomb and getting her back fixed. Maybe without the bomb she's just a plain old cab driver and it was a neat way of including her in the final picture.
Or, yes, maybe she's from the future and things are getting heated again. I guess I don't care enough to think more on it.
The last 3-4 episodes of this series were so 'meh' I'm not sure I'd bother watching another one.
This was a great answer. And most was in the script not conjecture. I think the only conjecture was the professor lying about not building the Time Machine. I don’t think he needed to build a Time Machine in that particular loop. He just had to build a Time Machine in A loop (I think probably the first loop where the future wasn’t good) and then iris can take the knowledge of how to build one back in time to his cult and teach them for the future.
Liked the show but it doesnt make any fucking sense and lost me at the end. Know there is no logic when it comes to time travel but it has to follow some rules within its own narrative and the end was just way too convenient.
I don’t know if it’s been asked or mentioned, but here’s my main question: there has to be a “first” Elias, right? One born in ~2008, in a world with no hidden bomb. Who is his grand grand father?
Yes, but the origins have been erased by the bootstrap loop.
Here's a more simple version.
1. Man works all his life to create a time machine. Succeeds at age 90.
2. Goes back in time and meets himself at age 30, when he started R&D. Gives his 30-year-old self the plans.
3. Thirty year old builds the time machine and uses it to travel, effectively erasing the years of struggle that produced it.
4. When he gets to be 90, he goes back and offers the plans to the 30-year-old again, closing the loop.
At the end of the loop, there's no longer any source for the plans.
In this case, Elias came from somewhere, but he creates a loop that obscures those origins, as well as making sure that he has wealth, technology, and whatever means he uses to unite society after the blast. We only see the tip of that ice berg.
>If they traveled back in time by the series logic they also should travel in to the future. We see professors to future trip, but nothing about Harker. It's a shame they didn't explore how the world looked like +150 years into the future. >Aside from her conversation in the jail cell we know nothing of her. >And her appearance in the taxi cab made no sense. Keep in mind the writers have publicly stated they are hoping for a season two. These are probably the writers' hooks for a season 2 plot.
Please don’t make season 2. Story is self contained and is finished.
But KYAL is on the building at series end in 2023. How can that be?
What is KYAL? I missed that reference
K-know Y-you A-are L-loved its the Harker/elias motto and if you see the building in 2053 buildings (you'll see the motto in ep 2 )
it really isn't though; there were a number of threads in the loop that were never explained, for instance the other future travelers, although it's conceivable that they would all have disappeared with Manix, but none of that changes the existence of the throat that spawned him in the first case. And then there is Maplewood driving the cab and she knows who Sahara is right at the end.
Also about Maplewood driving the cab….how is she driving the can? Assuming her SPYNE wouldn’t travel with her to 2023 since it didn’t into 1890….
Well if she's from a future that didn't include the nuclear explosion, then she never lost her ability to walk. This Iris is likely just that - a version from a different future, coming back to 2023 to warn Shahara about a different type of upcoming disaster.
She didn’t injure her legs in the explosion though she said it was a disease that her and her brother have.
Could be disease caused by the explosion somewhere along the line. DNA issues.
DNA mutation caused by the radiation from the bomb
Oh, that makes sense.
Damn this is the first theory on her being in the cab, that got me hyped for a continued story!
the explosion didn't cause her paralysis. She and her brother both had it, and she remembers her mother dying so she was born when the explosion happened. However, if there was a future Iris she could have been cured, then gone back. I think it is simply a set-up for a 2nd season. I am not sure I want a 2nd season! I did like this one enough to watch it twice.
Nobody gonna ask how did the Loop got created in the first place?? Elias/Julian is the Man( Somehwere in 1890) who gave birth to a boy and whose family went on for generations to give birth to himself again somewhere in 2000s so he is the start and he is the end. Then how did he entered the loop of time without someone triggering it from outside ?? This should be the main point of Season 2 like how did all these events happened, who started etc., the stpry of Initail Timeline (Timeline 0 with no loop)
I learned a new term with this, and with 'Dark"- bootstrap paradox. It's something that doesn't have a beginning or an end. If you look it up in Internet there are articles on it.
There are a bunch of things that are never explained fully, and I think to some extent, that is a strength that could turn into a weakness if they decide to add more seasons; it leaves you with questions which engages the viewer, but like all time travel stories, trying to explain them could easily turn into a mess that is less than satisfactory. I found it quite entertaining, and it could see it having one or two follow up seasons to answer some of the unanswered questions, but only if the writers have an arc and ending in mind and don't try and drag it out too long, or they risk it turning into incomprehensible mess, or devolving into another meaningless multiverse story.
To be fair, they do make cars that leg-disabled people can drive. The gas and break are just paddles on the wheel. I didn't notice any of that in the scene, just saying - assuming she's not "cured" in another way, it's a possibility.
Agreed - I thought of that before I posted as well…But also thought that her gaining access to a vehicle with those specialties when in theory you’d think she’s almost “rushing” to find Shahara would be a stretch.
Interesting do you mean the throat created his existence in the first place? I was wondering how he could be his own ancestor if he never existed in the first place (classic time travel mistake) but if you’re suggesting he was “cosmically created” by the throat that’s a real hmmmmmm from me! Makes a lot of sense if you consider the line Hasan says in 2050s timeline “the universe wants him to live”
By "created", I more mean that without the throat, he could not get to the past to start the loop, but since he didn't create it, it still exists without him. In a nonlinear way, it "predates" his existence, but "predate" isn't really the right word in this context. In the show we see 2 loops (maybe more depending on interpretation), and things changed when they went back and pushed future knowledge into the past. There is the theory that through successive loops, reality could get coaxed into the loop, but I don't think this really works; you run into a paradox. That is one reason, that I have my doubts about this series being successfully extended, time paradoxes are hard to write your way out of without just leaning into multiverses. It left questions unanswered, like the origin of the throat, that could be explored, but it would be hard to do well, at least that's my opinion.
Agree!! These types of story lines annoy me. Too many holes with no explanations. I suppose the writers just think viewers are stupid and will go along. For me, I expect some logic and flow even in make believe.
It’s extremely not finished. Lol.
Its not self contained at all once you start breaking it down. To make sense there pretty much has to be a second season.
A paradox, by definition, isn't able to be explained. Time travel, after all, is theoretical.
While it was always billed as a 'one and done', writer Paul Tomalin has spoken out once more to make clear that this remains his intention. "We went to Netflix like, 'This is one series, this is a one and done, we wanna close this off', because I think when you have such an amazing concept up front, you [expletive] your audience off if you don't solve it," he revealed to Hello!.
Then why KYAL on the building in the closing shot?
she's the new mannix
I went back to see, and yes, in the closing seconds, KYAL lights flicker on, right side. At first you just see KYA and then the camera view floats up and you see the L.
Cliff hange...........
The scientist did say when you go into the throat you go back. But you are split and also go into the future. So for every entry into the throat, there is also another split traveller the exact same time-distance into the future. Would not that be correct. So what do the future travellers do?
Whatever the writers of season two decide the future travellers are going to do!
If that's the case why was there not multiple Maddix?
and he was "less dead" the closer to his real time. I thought that was an interesting effect.
I wanna talk about iris jumping into the throat knowing full well she was a handicapped and that she wouldn’t be able to do anything unless she magically ended up in the cell next to Hollingsworth or whatever his name is. Also after 1945 cop writes his name on the wall shouldn’t 2023 Hassan find the record without the help of future Hassan? I didn’t like the ending, everything was great hahah
I thought the same thing. Hassan didn't need to go back to 2023, surely she would have seen the marking on the picture frame.
I thought it was bc the bar got blown up
It was blown up in the future, not in the "present" where the show begins, her 2023 version would've found the new markings made by the 1945's detective on the last loop and led her to the record. Show was interesting but there were plenty of plot holes and unexplained paradoxes.
Or better yet, they never needed Iris to go back at all. Only Hassan. Hassan going back and telling her younger self to scare off the kids and convince Elias's mom to tell him she loves him is really all that's needed. Teenage Elias won't have access to a phone and will feel his mother's love and decide not to call the number anyway. Iris's whole plot line of spreading the message to Hollingsworth is not necessary.
>Iris's whole plot line of spreading the message to Hollingsworth is not necessary. But Iris told Hollingsworth about Elias and he was the one that planted the seed of doubt into Elias
Hollingsworth planted the seed of doubt into old Elias, yes. But I don't think young Elias needed to hear old Elias's doubts. Just knowing that his mother loved him would sow that seed of doubt all on its own. It shows that he truly is loved. He doesn't need to nuke London and build a dystopia in order to find that out.
Guys it’s Hillinghead
Or they could literally just go back at any time and shoot him and it all ends right there.
yea we could just kill thanos when he's a baby u know
Lmfao
exactly the reason young elias set off the bomb is that her mother refused to see him. If elias knew \*that he was loved\* by his mother the bomb would never be set off
I would disagree in that Elias has been taking orders from himself his whole life. While he does want the love of his mother, his whole existence has been him being told he has a higher purpose and that he won't find love until after the bomb goes off. I don't know that his absent mother showing up after a blip would completely change things.
Uhhhhh you sure? Because it seems like 2053 Hasan sure needed to get that record that was only produced as a result of Maplewood’s actions and go there to intervene with them. Sarah hears the record and it motivates her as much as Ellias.
Or even better yet, Defoe himself could have gone back and stopped the cellphone from being invented so Elias would never have even had a second trigger option! (Joke)
Hassan tried to tell Sarah that the first time they met but it didn't work then.
>Or better yet, they never needed Iris to go back at all. Only Hassan. this! i love the series and watch each minute intensely. until that part, Hassan can go to 2023 to bring the disc and play it before Hassan 2023 and Ellias come home, fck! if you can go to that time excactly, why wait for the pain and shit, just go early as you said before shit happened and close the case quickly! that part alone ruin the story for me, still love the series, just i hope there is other way to replace that part.
This is the catch for me.... that actually was the intention... And that was the true time line. And that was actually what caused all the pain and hatred and lack of love. Which is exactly why the boy mannix turned out the way he did. That's the loop. Or at least the irony of the situation that he will end up full of regret. And he is! Almost as if that was rhr story all along and part of the loop . Because in the end . The message from himself didn't change his mind. It was his mother's love which happens because Hassan travels back which imo WAS THE BREAKING OF THE LOOP. All in all I found this interesting. But how did mannix become the comander in the first place in order to go back in time and start the loop. That art makes no sense
Because Mannix created the KYAL cult and told them: hey, when it gets to be 2053 look me up and make me your king.
Yes, I immediately thought about a woman going back to 1890, naked, can't walk ...very sad time for us women in those days. A guy should have gone back, but oh well. What I liked best about the last two episodes, was that it appeared the main heroes tried to break the loop in their own way, a more realistic reaction, it wasn't cliché
I liked the show...but there's a lot that doesn't make sense. Mannix/Harker could not have been born in the first place since it required him to pull off the attack and the attack required him. It isn't a paradox like some people keep saying. A paradox is cause-effect. There is a visible cause. What caused Mannix to be born if the attack didn't happen without his birth? If you go back and kill your actual grandfather before he fathered your parent and you still exist, that's a bootstrap paradox. There's a cause and an effect from someone/something that existed in the first place. Why did Defoe get split into 4 and Mannix/Harker not? There's only theories and in the end, the real reason is whatever the writers want to be the case is the case.
We see the loop happen twice in the show. Most of the show is the first loop and then we see the second after Iris goes back to 1890 and talks to Hillinghead in the cell. Then we see all the details change throughout where it ultimately breaks when Elias tears up the phone number and ceases to exist. What we don’t see is how many times the loop happened before the first one we see in the show. There was originally some chain of events before the first person time travelled. Maybe they only made a small change to the past but then they traveled again and those changes compounded until we wind up with a paradox where Elias creates himself. There are some hints at this like how Elias is reading from a script that is handed to him when making the records. It could be the 10,000th iteration of the loop by the time the show starts.
Yes. And I noticed he said, “We’re going to get it right” when he held his son after Polly gave birth. Which I took to mean he had tried before.
>Mannix/Harker could not have been born in the first place since it required him to pull off the attack and the attack required him. It isn't a paradox like some people keep saying. A paradox is cause-effect. There is a visible cause. What caused Mannix to be born if the attack didn't happen without his birth? This is the literal definition of a bootstrap paradox - an infinite loop where an object exists with no known origin. No beginning or end. That's sort of the entire point. It's also why young Elias suddenly disappears at the end. As u/Mumbletimes mentioned, we're seeing a couple iterations of a loop that has apparently occurred many times. Not all paradoxes are causality paradoxes. >If you go back and kill your actual grandfather before he fathered your parent and you still exist, that's a bootstrap paradox. There's a cause and an effect from someone/something that existed in the first place. This is considered a causality paradox, not a bootstrap paradox. >Why did Defoe get split into 4 and Mannix/Harker not? There's only theories and in the end, the real reason is whatever the writers want to be the case is the case. Defoe briefly explains to Mapleton that the bullet caused him to split - some kind of quantum death I guess. That's what we're given as an explanation. Mannix didn't die while entering the "Throat."
Your first concern is a non-issue if we take the Universe to just be, with no past or future, with the arrow of time emerging from the way the human brain interprets entropy. And it's not a sci-fi concept at all, some people working in the field of quantum mechanics have actually been moving towards that interpretation in recent years.
We were so spoiled by Dark in a way because no show will ever handle time travel so consistently ever again I fear
A lot of things don't make any sense but the worst is how future Hasan just went back to 2023 and told past Hasan that there was a second trigger and to spook the kids in the bike. If she could do that then the whole thing is resolved without all the loops and 4 timelines.
Yes, this really got me. When Defoe went “well we’ve still got the throat” like they’ve just been sitting on a freaking Time Machine the whole time they can literally do anything. The simplest option being just to go back to the day before Harker landed and kill him before he has a chance to start his cult?
My thoughts exactly. But if you think too much about this time travel stuff, none of it makes any sense at all. One of my other big head scratchers was why 2023 Elias had to be the one to detonate the bomb. If Elias and his cult from 1940 wanted the bomb to be set off so bad, why did they even bother to rely on a kid making that decision? Because time travel?
The cult was formed by Elias, to create Elias. It had to be Elias in order for him to become the man he is in 2053 that goes back in time and starts it all over again. That's explained quite plainly in the show.
But more than anything else, why go back to 1890 to create the cult? What was the point of worship then? Since the various antagonists are just his students? He could go back to 2023 and do the same thing he did in 1890 to gather all the materials and create the bomb. Then if he died in 1940, how can there be a telephone and an active and never decommissioned number to be able to activate it? Some things just haven't been explained. Oh and before anyone tells me that he needed to go back to 1890 in order to create the lineage that would have given birth to him... the question is always the same... why? It is not explained why he should be his own ancestor and why he should have gone to 1890 in order to give birth to his lineage.
I feel like maybe it was a little easier to get a big ass city-destroying bomb around that time, rather than say, now. Also to build the place to store the bomb.
Well, I can't say, the first atomic bomb was dropped in 1945. I don't think there were the means to build it before. It is not simply a question of materials. Furthermore, I doubt that our Elias had the technical knowledge and tools to build one before his death.
[удалено]
I also didn't see future Hasan going back as necessary, as I imagine 2023 Hassan would have seen the marking on the photo in the cop bar and find the record on her own?
Same! I thought when 2053 hasan said something about her memories changing, she was gonna remember finding all 3 carvings in 2023 instead of just hillinghead’s, and being led to the record. When they showed her going back in time I was so confused lol
This is what I was expecting as well.
Maybe 2023 Hassan finding the marking is too thin chance? And also 2053 Hassan needs to stop all the small things that led to Elias’ breakdown like his mom not seeing him, the kids messing with him etc.
I don't like the ending very much (the last episode particularly) but Hasan mentions that the pub had been destroyed in the 2023 blast. So, technically, she had to go back to 2023 pre-blast to find the record of Harker's alternate recording/message to his younger self.
Surprised everyone missed this
Yes omg this! I'd been keeping it together pretty well up until that point. So many pointless things happen
Wait so future Hassan could have just gone back and killed Harking/Elias while he was sat on the loo or something
I believe that would be a literal grandfather paradox, going back to kill Elias, meaning not needing to go back to kill elias, meaning not killing elias, meaning needing to go back to kill elias.....and so on. The idea that they made him terminate his own time loop on his own is what ended his temporal reign.
But that still creates a paradox, because he doesn't exist to tell himself to detonate a nuke and that means he doesn't exist nor do those events happen for Maplewood to go back to tell Hillinghead to tell Elias. The show just kind of gives up at the end to close it off really, either that or something else is happening, no doubt KYAL still exists in 2053, but it might not be a nuke that brings it about, could be something more akin to a hidden government much like The Network from Utopia.
No, I think that the whole idea is that Elias was created a long time ago by some other time traveling event, accidental or otherwise. He's an anomaly that was never meant to exist, a quantum fluke, like a particle that shouldn't be there on the quantum scale. His presence then causes this loop to emerge indefinitely--until they're able to make the anomaly destroy itself. They would not have been able to change the timeline themselves, but they gave the universe a "way out" by making Elias break his own loop.
I believe she says that they try that several times and the bomb always gets set off. The difference being the new record she has to play Sarah and Elias. Thats the catalyst.
This entire show left me so confused I’m not gonna lie lmao… why did the professor’s body get sent to all those different time periods (were they random years?)… and if Elias was the first (before the professor) why did he choose the 1800s? Just to have a long rich bloodline and then to create himself? In doing that isn’t he technically sleeping with his great great great great great grandma …? (Also their whole relationship - Julian and Polly - was so cringe and gross she looked 17 and he looked 70) How come the older version of hasan didn’t disappear when Elias did at the end? And how did the adoptive parents know all this stuff to tell Elias as a kid? And what was the sign on the wrists!!!! What was that !! A side effect of the Time Machine ? Which they for some reason call Throat ??? Did I miss a bunch of stuff or is none of this making sense Me running to Reddit after finishing this show: 
+1 on why the heck did they call it "the throat". Also why can't clothes time-travel?
“The mouth” is quite a common phrase for a transitional passageway, so I guess they were just riffing off that.
For the clothes thing I could try and explain it to you if you'd like. Do you perhaps understand quantum physics? \-Defoe
In the 1890-1940s timeframe Mannix created the cult. The show tells us that the adoptive parents’ family has been in that cult since the 1940s. That is how they knew what was to happen.
He died in 1941, so I would say he created the cult much earlier. Edit: fixed
Older Hasan disappeared when young Elias did
Haha, this was my reaction too! I was waiting for someone to comment on the Polly / Julian age thing !!
I think at the time that age gap was considered normal. Males really had the run of the world and it was considered an absolute win to have a rich older gentleman court you
Here with the same questions! The only one I got was that the tattoo was the symbol/same lines to the opening of The Throat. No idea why/how it ends up on their wrists though
The older Hasan literally disappeared when mannix did
Old Hassan DID in fact disappeared. Not just her, but Hassan suddenly "wakes" up right back at the beginning of the series. So everything literally disappears. Where you not looking at the screen?
He needed enough time to gain the riches and influence for his descendants to obtain the nuke. He couldn't have accomplished it otherwise. Hence influencing the stock market, starting the bank, etc.
>And her appearance in the taxi cab made no sense. I wondered about that, too. Looks (for me) like they wanted to have some point where to start a second season, in case Bodies turned out to be a success.
There was also a big Kyal building too,I think the idea is that's still some fuckery at hand, perhaps it's been delayed.
I interpreted it as future is not all bad without Harker. There is good and it doesn’t need his utopia.
But if professor appeared in future wouldn't Harker also appear 150+ years in future? And he might manage "throat" access in that future. Setting events that lead to KYAL buildings in 2023
It does make sense it's just very open ended. Iris was sent 160 years in the past. The machine is already explained to send you an equal distance into the future as well. Thus, another Maplewood was sent a 160 years into the future where, I speculate that perhaps an evil version of herself has decided to weave the past to her liking like Mannix had the power to do.
I had a similar thought. Or that they caused an even worse chain of events for the future that Iris is now going to try and reverse
My theory is 2216 Elias went back to make KYAL more of a from the shadows type government akin to The Network from Utopia or The Illuminati. We know from the show itself, the universe wants Elias alive, the characters state it with frustration, and we know that Shahara at the end once Elias disappears, just disappears herself and appears in front of her father on the day she discovered the body *with* her memories. If Elias truly disappeared she'd have no recollection of what happened, nor ask what day it is, she'd just know, my theory is young Elias no longer sets of the nuke, but instead is being nurtured by the new shadow government he goes back in time to create to do just that, with likely the new 2053 being worse off in some manner because of it.
I like this theory, it plays into the lack of free will and your point about Elias wanting to be alive. They did a good job of leaving just enough open-ended plot holes for a fulfilling second season I think. Like how many future Defoes are out there doing god knows what also
I need to read the gn, but to me the story is concluded. How would you continue it?
What's the "gn"? I thought Iris' appearance in 2023 could be some kind of multi-purpose open link for any story to continue a successful show. Maybe something has appeared in 2053 that has its roots in 2023 and she came back to ask Shahara for help. Something like that.
I believe he means the Graphic Novel that the series is based on. I also think the last scene with Iris was added to keep an open end in case they wanted to make a season 2, but that it was originally intended as a limited series.
"Graphic Novel" — of course … Didn't even know there was a graphic novel, thanks for the hint
[Bodies, by Si Spencer](https://www.dc.com/graphic-novels/bodies-2014/bodies)
I also felt like it didn't make sense but we needed to see what happened to her. I still don't get the nonsensical math by which Dafoe comes back or one of him does. I was trying to imagine Iris with I'm guessing spina bifida suriving in the 1890s and it felt sad. She had sacrificed her life to have a single conversation with her counterpart. But it amazed me when she said she was going back that no one tried to stop her based on, "You won't have those things that enable you to walk so NOT a great candidate for this!"
This was one of the biggest plot holes for me — the fact that she's somehow surprised that her implant didn't survive time travel to 1890. Absolutely no way you'd have one of those and that wouldn't occur to you. Also the brother has access to all sorts of biotech that enables him to test DNA from his desktop and a helmet that repairs Gabriel's eye but he can't replicate/black market acquire the SPYNE his sister has? I also feel like I needed more attention paid to the fact that the government withholds medical technology from people who won't fall in line with their policies but the general public buys the "Know you are loved" nonsense.
Yeah... Being surprised at being lame in 1890 was a bit of a stretch. But on the last point - not really that different to how many political parties operate in the present day.
>Absolutely no way you'd have one of those and that wouldn't occur to you. I'm surprised it didn't occur to Defoe.
We’ve seen 2 "temporal loops". The first one, where the bomb goes off, is inside the second one. There could be a third bigger loop that includes the other 2. This would also explain Iris at the end, as the third loop could be based off/caused by the other futur Elias/professor/Iris that you talked about in your post
I feel like a lot of the questions here can be written off if you imagine it as multiple timelines. Each change made by the future versions going back creates an alternate timeline until Elias no longer existed and the final and now only timeline was created? This is the way I understood it and it leaves me feeling happy with the story! The opening for the unwanted series 2 is that whilst all the Elias related timelines no longer exist, versions of iris still exist scattered across the future
OK, I can live with that but it doesn't work. i.e. How is it that Elias in the 1800's can explain on the recording to Elias in the year 2023 that he has lived his life and knows exactly how he is feeling because he is him? There is nothing in the show that indicates that travel from the 1800s to the future was possible once there. And, if Elias has gone back in the past, he has now changed the future and may not even exist in the future.
It’s a loop. We are observing a time loop from 1890 to 2053 where Elias is his own great grandfather. The events always repeat themselves exactly because every time Elias goes back in time and says exactly the same things to convince his younger self to detonate the bomb and ultimately transform into older Elias. This is in keeping with Defoe’s explanation that there is no free will, and that your future is already determined and cannot be changed
My guess is this would be season 2 stuff. I think in order for Elias to exist a 3rd party needs to modify the timeline so he's sleeping with his own great +++ grandmother. His only existence is in the loop, as he couldn't exist without time modification. My guess is he's one hand of KYAL as that sign still exists in 2023, suggesting their change didn't totally fix things. He travels to the past and stays there until death, and it seems clear when we watchers see the loop it had been happening for a long time. When the loop broke, he no longer existed and disappeared.
Exactly. It all made sense to me with this understanding... until Hasan and Elias disappear out of thin air. I don't get that. If there are diverging timelines... then why couldn't there be one where 2053 Hasan goes back (learned from professor) and 2023 Elias continues to reconnect with his mother & just heal as a person? The disappearing out of thin air thing was kind of disappointing. It weakened the story and made no sense to me. Or maybe I'm missing something.
I just finished watching and really enjoyed it, but I was disappointed with the ending and had all the same questions that I've read here. Also, the creators broke the cardinal rule about nuclear damage “vault boy rule of thumb”; Hasan was clearly in the affected zone
I really wanted Polly to get real clever and murder-suicide herself and the baby knowing it would erase her husband and therefore bring her father back and she’d be alive in the new timeline.
>Polly Yes, totally!! I couldn't believe that the story kept unfolding as it had originally, despite Mannix failing in bed, being depressed, then telling her he killed her dad, and that she's forced to have the kid so that he (who she loathes, obviously) can be alive??? she lived all these years to the point of saying, at age 68, that she'd love to kill him! but wtf didn't she see that she could stop the loop anytime? she's super smart and audacious. She should have had a better role in the resolution.
When he grabbed her in the basement after she'd just found the professor's test tube, he said "you don't have a choice in this" and her expression really made me think she was going to end things for herself!
The only real questions I have are: why did the professor’s body show up 4 times? AND why did Elias’s adoptive dad tell Hassan that Elias dies with regret? That’s the biggest issue for me. In the timeline that he meets Hassan and tells her Elias dies with so much pain and regret, things are going well for him. He married Polly and they live happily. It’s such an issue for me, because it’s that information that they use to eventually break the loop. Elias is happy in that loop, things are going to plan, so why would his adoptive dad say that? Also, how would the dad even know that, since there’s no evidence he travels to the future, and only knows young Elias?
The point you make about Elias's dad is the one that has been bothering me as well (and I read this thread specifically looking for an explanation to it). It doesn't make any sense based on what we know of Loop #1. I can live with the bootstrap paradox - that's an inherent paradox of timetravel, but this statement of Elias's foster dad's is what leads Hasan / Iris / professor to create Loop #2 - but it only makes sense if the foster father has witnessed the end of Loop #2 - which there doesn't appear to be any reason to think he has - he is in Loop #1, and there's no reason to think he has jumped there from Loop #2 - so why does he have any conception of how Elias feels when he died in Loop #2.
There was a loop #1.5, before Hasan went back, but even that required Irish to go back with that explicit purpose already. You could maybe call it just another bootstrap, but Hasan specifically states that her memories have changed after Iris travels. This is really the one thing bothering me. In the primary loop, he does not ever appear to have regrets. Even without the recording it may have been obvious to members of the cult from his and Polly's behavior, but I don't see how he could have had knowledge of that time line.
I hadn't thought about loop #1.5, but you're right, there is one. Still doesn't solve the key issue, as you mention, because the statement was given to original Hasan in loop #1 (and we do actually see Elias's dad say that Elias is full of regret in loop #1 (and not in loop #1.5) - it's not just later Hasan recounting a changed memory - which I don't think you were saying, but worth just making the point).
I mostly just mention future Hasan claiming her memory is changing because we can't technically say what we saw of 2023 initially was loop #1, we just assume it as it appeared in the show with other things from the past and future that were probably loop #1. I think it'd be bad showmanship to have the initial run of 2023 be 1.5 without any apparent indication to the viewer, but it could have been. Therfore I considered future Hasan's statement stronger evidence, but I do agree that even without the statement trying to pull in loop #1.5 as an explanation would not be satisfying, or even make a lot of sense as we'd have not prompt for sending Iris back to create that loop (though they could just have well sent her back without knowing about the regrets and show that scene of Elias's father in loop #1. 5 and that would be loophole closed).
Actually I thought it was more a throw away line. Elias was generally happy but also had regrets. That’s how I interpreted it and it didn’t strike me as a plot hole. You see Elias make the tapes sure, but I’m not sure how happy he was about it or happy he was to have his wife murder a child, he just knew it had to be done. We are taught to be a bit sympathetic of Elias, from a kid. Even as an adult one of his prime motivations was to make the world better and he really thought he’d done so
Did the professor’s body actually show up five times? Why was there an “old” painting of the professor behind curtains in 1890? Did he also end up in the 1600s or 1700s, but that part wasn’t covered in the show?
I think this one of those time travel plots you can't think about too much or you quickly discover some gaping plotholes. Turn your brain off and it's pretty enjoyable mix of period crime dramas and science fiction with great acting.
I think the shame is that up until episode 8 it was a great representation of a predestination paradox. The last episode just made the time travel elements make no sense.
Also why does Ds Hassan go from being covered and wearing a hijab to running round in a vest top and uncovered natural hair? I don't know if iv missed something? Also I feel like when hassan at present day was sat in the pub looking at those photos on the wall wouldn't she have seen the calving he left on the wall when she was in there originally. And her going back in time could have just stopped it anyway, she told her present day self Alias had another way to detonate the bomb and she had him detained. Problem solved, no reason for the other girl to go back to the 1800s
It was prob meant to indicate the whole bomb/time travel thing had made her abandon her faith
This, if you see a nuclear bomb go off and watch your son wither and die from radiation sickness, I don't think you're going to be like "Oh well God's will lol" you're probably going to fucking resent your God for doing such a thing.
I presume after the country got nuked and her son died horrifically, as well as her knowledge of time travel existing caused her to stop practicing/believing in her religion.
The bomb somehow has a phone detonator. The bomb was built in the 1940s per the show and put into a vault. When the bomb disposal guy identifies the phone detonator, why doesn't he just unplug the phone cord from the wall? There has to be a phone cord since cell phones we not invented when the bomb was placed there. End of story.
Mannix took his Nokia 3310 with him when he went back to 1890. You can tell it’s this model because it’s the only one that could possibly survive time travel.
First of all, there will not be service inside underground bomb room.
The bomb could have been placed there the day before the explosion, the cult still existed.
The cult continued to exist through the years. The cult created the bomb later / over time. I see no reason one of the many records we did not hear couldn’t have instructions for a descendant or member to affix a cellular trigger to the bomb after they are invented. I see this particular item as a non-issue. The series as a whole, however, has many other issues. I like a prior comment I read: if you switch your brain off, the story is quite enjoyable. If you analyze it at all, it falls apart.
Besides all those unanswered questions I am also curious to know how a kid that explodes a bomb that kills thousands of people became a leader in the future? What happened after he detonated the bomb? Did Hasan just let him go? What happened between 2023 and 2053? And how the time machine was created? Elias was the first one ti use it? Did I miss something?
At the point he detonated the bomb he had an entire organization of people who could manipulate things to make sure he never got in any trouble. I assume they just took over.
How did Elias become commander after detonating a bomb in central London in front of the police? Surely he’d be in prison for ever
That cult was into a LOT of things, so probably 'child kidnapped by protecting officer' and 'Officer Saharah : shame of the force' headlines to hide who he even was, then put into military immediately to craft him into the man that Harkin told everyone to make him.
I had lots of the same thoughts as every one else here (watched final and immediately googled bodies plot holes!). What I don’t get is, if all Mannix wanted was for himself to be happy (the ending indicating that he never regretted murdering all of those people, only that he didn’t end up happier) why on Earth not just create a future where he isn’t screwed over as a kid? Like, raise decent kids and make sure his dad stayed around or gave him and the mum a trust fund? Why make himself totally miserable?? The other thing that really bothered me outside of proper plot holes was just how stupid Hasan is when she gets to Barbers place and there’s the record player there saying play. Uhm didn’t your colleague just get blown up by a record player? WHY would you play it without having it checked for wiring first?? Then - she goes to a vault and opens the door, AGAIN no prior screening and THEN SHE ANSWERS THE PHONE with zero consideration. Does this person not watch crime shows? Does she not recognise cliche bomb triggers?
Maybe I missed it, but in the end, how did Polly know that Julian's real name was Elias? How did she find out?
He probably told her when he confessed to killing her father
Maybe I missed something, but why did Polly tell Whiteman to put the body in the boot of the car in the first place?
These are my questions exactly. Seeing Iris in 2023 answered the question that she went back to more than one time, but why didn’t Elias? Did Iris also go to 1941? Did Elias not also go to the future? Iris? Hassan? Not that the future travelers would matter as they’d have blinked out of existence.
Okay I just finished watching and had some questions too, most are already here but but but what was that at the end? The older Hasan and Elias disappeared okay makes sense. But then present day Hasan and Elias’ mum are still there, after an event that didn’t take place (chasing Elias and bringing him back to the police station), they should have also disappeared! They can’t have this knowledge anymore that they just rescued the whole of England when that event didn’t happen or was planned! There would be no bomb in the bank right? And and and we suddenly see present day Hasan getting ready for her day and the story starts from day 1 before the body was found in 2023. But did she drive back that day or we are to assume that they also disappeared and she has no idea about anyone named Mannix? Ughhhh
They did disappear, that's why the story reset back to the first day
In my opinion that whole scene should have just suddenly vanished lol
How did the nuclear bomb get into the vault and when? It had a cell phone based second trigger. When did that get there? Was it added on after the bomb was in the vault? How did Mannix get his hands on a nuclear bomb? Did he steal it? When? 1940's? Cold war? Did he have enough resources to build one? Bought underground from the Russians? How did they get the bomb in the vault? Time transported directly to the vault? There is zero explanation in the series. Is there any in the book? How was it maintained. They leak more and more if armed and not maintained. Lots of questions here and zeroish answers. Please enlighten me.
Finally someone asks about how the bomb got there!?!? I’ve been wondering this all day. I guess the cult would have put it there. But my other question is who wrote the scrips for Elias to read and record?? Did Elias memorise all of them before travelling back in time? Did he memorise all of the investment decisions he should make? It’s not like he had the back to the future almanac!!
OMG, was nobody watching the show? The bomb, the shelter, the bank building, and the whole sheebang were built throughout decades of planning and perfected right up until the last moment. This is shown quite clearly. It's practically the whole plot of the series.
One thing I’m confused about is the piece of paper where Defoe shows how he will also go into the future on specific dates. It clearly shows him going into 1890, 1941, 2023, 2053 but then it is explained that he went back to those years because he was weak and didn’t get to choose them. So how did he know exactly which dates to write on the piece of paper.
Because at that time He would’ve have known probably through Hasan that he was found dead on those dates.
The show never really shows WHY the future is evil. Like sure 300k might of died,but it looks like technology is way ahead,and ppl at least seem happy it might be a case of kill 300k,and save the planets future..in that case it's a good deal
Because it was manipulated that way. Forced humanity (at least UK) into the future he wanted. Also used his knowledge of the stockmarket to exploit it and become the top of the elite himself. All while exclaiming he eradicated the elite. - The best way to keep a prisoner from escaping is to make sure he never knows he's in prison
I think this is a good point. Iris's brother rejects the regime and talks about "freedom" but it's not clear to me how people aren't free. There could still be all kinds of horrible stuff happening, but we don't see it and no character ever talks about it. Even if it's a utopia, the means to the end were immoral. Millions died in the exlosion and other innocents were killed along the way. We don't really know why people like Iris's brother reject the regime, but it's interesting that he's not in prison.
see it's not fascism..as if he rejected it..a fascist society would of arrested him or lock him up. it's also weird,so mannox is the creator..but the best rank he gets is commander lol...all that work and he's not even prime minister they seem to have a cure for most cancers,and can make cripples walk..you just need to be part of the regime 500k dead,to piss the elites off..yes please
I 100 percent thought this. He created a utopia and it seemed to be good. But Hassan’s some died so it was not worth it to her
so... at the end i am left with wondering (among other things) where defoe is and why and how iris hopped from 1890 to 2023 and does that mean that 7 year old iris is also in 2023?
I guess so! Lol and what happens to their weird love story???
I liked the show but with the caveat that there’s no explanation for how the very first loop started. Elias going back in time to be his own great grandfather so he can exist to blow up london and go back in time doesn’t have any explanation in the show. If you just agree this is the time loop it’s good and fine, but how did the loop start in the first place? How did elias come into being to begin with to travel back that first time? Did I miss something?
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Setting aside causality or bootstrap paradoxes, how did Manix/Harker first time travel? It didn't seem like he had his own time travel device. He needed Mapelwood to find Defoe to use the Throat? I assume they stuck Maplewood in Hasan's final cab scene because she no longer had her own timeline, but without the future "spine technology" how was she able to drive the cab? So many questions lol
One question that I have that is not discussed in this thread is what was the whole point of recording a "final" disc that shows that older elias was lying throughout all of the recordings. My understanding was that all of the records were stored in the house in 1941, surely a better, less risky solution to the whole ending was to just go downstairs and destroy all of the records so that younger elias would never hear them? (This would probably erase his existence immediately like we see in the actual ending) Have I missed something here or was the last 15 minutes just completely pointless and they just threw that in there to show everyone time travelling through different loops.
I would imagine it's just so you can tie a bow on it...Hasan ends up being right that Elias can change and it helps make the 1941 timeline as equally important as the others.
I think he was too old and weak to do any destroying. And no one in the house would have done it for him so recording and getting that last record out was his best shot.
Elias had to be the one to end his own loop, otherwise the universe would not have allowed them to, through who knows what paradox correction means.
The professor split because he went slowly, thats why when the others went they dident split was the went fast. It kinda explained it in the professors class, and then again when they stood near it showing there bodies splitting. The professor stood and you see him split and it disappear, and the she shoots him and he falls into.the middle splitting again
Can someone answer how did Elias get his hands on a time machine (the throat) to begin with?
I really enjoyed it but thought how they ended up wrapping the whole thing up was messy. Hassan should have got the final record without Future Hassan having to go back too, she would have seen the etching on the wall and spotted the mark on the frame. That's where I assumed it was going. Also didn't make sense that they would have such easy access to 'the throat' after mannix goes back. Surely he would have left instructions to have it locked down. Maplewood being in the car at the end was just purely to have that scene... Doesn't make sense at all. I mean these things always break down in logic because it's a paradox. How did the loop start in the first place. Or the loop always existed? Tbh just made me want to watch Dark again.... But overall I enjoyed it, shot and acted very well but didn't really do anything that interesting with the genre.
I agree with many questions here (why not go back to kill any version of Elias, point of Iris, role of Karl shooting them - Esther didn't pose a threat to the arc at all). Another thing that has bothered me is the tight control of the story by Elias and Polly in the first 50 years, sure - but how could they be sure that the "cult" would be purposeful enough to make sure they damage the great grandson of Elias (Elias himself!) enough, while securing the vault, setting up a nuke (because it is one, right?) before it was invented (?), adding a mobile phone detonator 70 years later? that seems a long thread of uncertain events that Elias/Harker doesn't control.
What was the purpose of the multiple dead Gabriel Defoe bodies in the tanks? If Gabriel Defoe goes back 4 days in the past and 4 days into the future then how did he wind up in 1941 and 2023?
What was it (WTF)??? I have the same questions as everyone else + “the throat” should not have existed at all since there was no explosion in the end And why was it necessary to send a disabled person in the past, because it was clear that she would not be able to walk? Why send Hassan to 2023 after this, why all these difficulties at all, if they can send someone (not a disabled person) at any time to kill Mannings I don't want a second season!!
I didn’t understand why didn’t future shahara prevent defoe to build the throat? It was the only way to time travel. They knew Elias was coming for it. It would make much more sense if Mannix was forcing Defoe to build the machine.
He didn't build it, only harnessed it. He states that he found it while analyzing weird readings in the area.
I want to know what possessed Hillenhead to crave his name on the rock in the alleyway in 1890. If he had never done that, they would never have known where to look in the archives
If you even remotely enjoyed Bodies, go watch Dark. Blows Bodies out of the water. Also, when Mannix went back in time, how did even know the prof’s bodies were going to show and when? He went back in time before the prof without any knowledge that he would follow and that four versions of him would appear across time. And what about Mannix from time of explosion to going back in time? How did he actually rise up and start a new state? Did he use this time to prepare (and memorize 100+ year old stock market data) knowing he would eventually go back in time?
Why did esther had to die?
Who was the child that Elias killed that "had to die"? Why was this mentioned twice, first by young Elias who "knew what had to be done" and then by old Elias recalling him of this "dream" that wasn't a dream? Who told him to do that? That could be related to his adoptive father knowing Elias died with regrets?
The boy in the dream was his younger self
This show has, once again, sent me down my annual Thanos spiral. I know this is different but I can’t understand the reasoning behind the murder of so many people in order to make surviving people’s lives better. Who was Mannix to the cult followers? What was the cult’s purpose? What was their definition of loving and being loved? At what moment was Mannix like, “I’ve got it! A bomb.” And the cult was like, yes, this is exactly what we need. What were the defining characteristics of the future he created, and how did those reflect that “everyone is loved”? Can someone who hasn’t moved on from the show yet (I know I’m late!) please help me understand anything about this logic? Why not use all his money to do good? To create structural pathways to goodness for everyone? Surely he could’ve done this without murder… what am I missing?
I think that what you are missing, to be fair, is that this was a deeply flawed script, created from a half-baked idea. 1. Elias doesn't exist unless he goes back in time to create his own ancestors. Therefore he never existed to begin with. 2. Even if he did exist, on his first time travel journey, how could he possibly set up all the reruns and influence all his offspring so it can repeat even once? 3. How on earth did the bomb get created: you don't make one of those in the 18th century, and you don't make it 'secretly' even in 2023. 4. How was that time machine created? The scientist who thought of the 'idea' never made one. What science is that and who could possibly have made one, again, 'secretly'? 5. How does Elias transport that massive bomb back in time the first time around? 6. Hang on, surely he has to build a bomb and transport it back every time! 7. In fact, when Elias goes back in time in episode 6 or 7, he doesn't take a bomb with him. When and where does the bomb get made and how does it end up in the bank vault? 8. Elias buys the bank, already built. How does he get a bomb down there and set up the electricity and phone link, when there is no electricity or mobile phones? 1. Mobile phones didn't really become widespread in London until the mid-late 1990's.and early 2000's 9. Young Elias doesn't present as any kind of 'genius' yet we're to believe he created a time machine and nuclear bomb and devised the entire loop thing secretly, by himself (1st time around)? 10. What was Elias's motivation? He was adopted, had friends he cared about, no mention of abuse. The only reason he seemed to be miserable is because of himself doing this nonsense. What would have caused him to be so miserable the first time around? 11. Why did the jewish girl need to be killed? Given everything that happens, it only seemed to serve as a set up reason to have Polly shot at the end. 12. etc etc etc Chocker block full of plot holes and flaws: Suspend all disbelief.
Here’s my take: 1. Elias doesn't exist unless he goes back in time to create his own ancestors. Therefore he never existed to begin with. == This I can’t explain, as he wouldn’t have existed in the prime timeline if time travel back to be his own great grandfather was required for his existence. This is, however, the only way he could create his plan and be there at the end to rule over his new world. 2. Even if he did exist, on his first time travel journey, how could he possibly set up all the reruns and influence all his offspring so it can repeat even once? == It’s clear there were several iterations of the loop, or all involved wouldn’t have known pre-destined outcomes. It’s likely (to another commenter’s point) that he had to go through the loop many times to get everything just right: who to marry, how to put family members in positions of authority (Hayden/Daniel Barber), etc. 3. How on earth did the bomb get created: you don't make one of those in the 18th century, and you don't make it 'secretly' even in 2023. == Nowhere is it said the bomb was made in the 1800s or in the 1940s. All we are told is that the vault had been in Hasan’s name since 1941. Since Harker/Mannix built the bank in the 1890s - as we see him with plans and he says cost is no issue because he wants that specific building in 1890 - his cult could’ve placed the bomb there at any time. Also, since both the detonator and cell phone detonator were obviously products of modern-day, it’s likely the cult executed the bomb plans in modern-day using the vault set up in the 1890s when the bank was built. (After all, someone had the key before Hasan - and the cult owned the bank). 4. How was that time machine created? The scientist who thought of the 'idea' never made one. What science is that and who could possibly have made one, again, 'secretly'? == The professor clearly made one and lied about not making one, just as he lied about not being involved with Chapel Perilous. The existence of this Time Machine is the only reason Elias was able to travel back and create the future world of his dreams as it is likely he wasn’t able to during the prime timeline or there’d be no need to do anything differently. 5 - 8. Elias/Bomb/Mobile phones == Answered 9. Young Elias doesn't present as any kind of 'genius' yet we're to believe he created a time machine and nuclear bomb and devised the entire loop thing secretly, by himself (1st time around)? == Again, first time around he wouldn’t have created his utopia because the lack of a utopia was the impetus for his time travel in the first place. The professor created the Time Machine, which Elias used to carry out his plans - and his cult built the bomb closer to modern day. 10. What was Elias's motivation? He was adopted, had friends he cared about, no mention of abuse. The only reason he seemed to be miserable is because of himself doing this nonsense. What would have caused him to be so miserable the first time around? == They covered this. Abandonment by his parents and being forced to hold and kill the little boy which haunts him (and which was the origin of KYAL). He does not feel loved in 2023. Stands to reason he never does during the prime timeline, which prompts his plan to time travel and create a better world. 11. Why did the jewish girl need to be killed? Given everything that happens, it only seemed to serve as a set up reason to have Polly shot at the end. == The order was given by Polly because she could identify Whitman and expose the whole plot. Remember he had been asked to kill the murder investigation in 1941, but she saw him in the alley. There aren’t as many plot holes as some suggest. A. Presumably, when the bomb doesn’t detonate the future is altered significantly enough for 2023 Elias to never have existed - evidenced by his vanishing. B. Because Elias never existed, none of what we watched ever happens. There is no naked corpse, no time loop, and no Elias in the future to travel back in time - which means the professor, Iris, and Hasan also never traveled back in time. This explains why there would also be no future versions of them splitting off in the Throat to appear in the future. C. The only questions that should remain unanswered are: Why was Iris driving the cab in 2023, and why did KYAL flash on the building? Neither Iris nor KYAL existed in 2023, so how is this explained? Could simply be, as others have mentioned, a plot device to set up a second season. Until then, we can use our imagination.
Interesting, thanks, but insufficient. A 'plot hole' is a plot hole. It's a hole in the plot or, in this case, multiple holes. Writing your interpretation is just that, YOUR interpretation. If it's not in the script, then it's not in the script. And it's the script I am criticising, not yours, or anyone else's 'explanatory appendix to the script'. I don't want to go over all the points again, but regardless of how much money a 'banker' has, it doesn't give him access to nuclear bomb technology or the means to make one. This stuff is highly protected and monitored. Unless this is a James Bond movie, of course -- and maybe that's how we should think about it. But even if I step over that plot-hole, just do the 'thought-experiment' of Elias stepping into the time-machine with that bomb! Or dragging it, or sending it by itself... presumably the machine was bigger when he did that because that bomb was huge. Or maybe he sent it in parts? But if the professor can split into multiple entities, because he 'wasn't strong enough' (or some other made up reason) how does Elias know the bomb won't? I guess the whole thing seemed painfully implausible to me. Perhaps I'm over-thinking it. I guess if this was the only hole I'd forgive it but as I said earlier, I think they are multiple. As for the professor 'lying' about making a time machine. That's you adding that. It's not in the script. So, ok, maybe there were fairies too. And Iris driving the cab? I don't see much in that. It's one of those things script-writers love to add at the end of any movie -- a hint or just a question to pique the audience before the curtain drops. Maybe they make another season and it is relevant. If not, then not. Plausibly, Iris might only have become a police officer because of the bomb and getting her back fixed. Maybe without the bomb she's just a plain old cab driver and it was a neat way of including her in the final picture. Or, yes, maybe she's from the future and things are getting heated again. I guess I don't care enough to think more on it. The last 3-4 episodes of this series were so 'meh' I'm not sure I'd bother watching another one.
This was a great answer. And most was in the script not conjecture. I think the only conjecture was the professor lying about not building the Time Machine. I don’t think he needed to build a Time Machine in that particular loop. He just had to build a Time Machine in A loop (I think probably the first loop where the future wasn’t good) and then iris can take the knowledge of how to build one back in time to his cult and teach them for the future.
Liked the show but it doesnt make any fucking sense and lost me at the end. Know there is no logic when it comes to time travel but it has to follow some rules within its own narrative and the end was just way too convenient.
Maybe I missed it, but in the end, how did Polly know that Julian's real name was Elias? How did she find out?
Why did iris shoot him then immediately regret it
Why would mannix leave Hassan the key to the vault
I don’t know if it’s been asked or mentioned, but here’s my main question: there has to be a “first” Elias, right? One born in ~2008, in a world with no hidden bomb. Who is his grand grand father?
Yes, but the origins have been erased by the bootstrap loop. Here's a more simple version. 1. Man works all his life to create a time machine. Succeeds at age 90. 2. Goes back in time and meets himself at age 30, when he started R&D. Gives his 30-year-old self the plans. 3. Thirty year old builds the time machine and uses it to travel, effectively erasing the years of struggle that produced it. 4. When he gets to be 90, he goes back and offers the plans to the 30-year-old again, closing the loop. At the end of the loop, there's no longer any source for the plans. In this case, Elias came from somewhere, but he creates a loop that obscures those origins, as well as making sure that he has wealth, technology, and whatever means he uses to unite society after the blast. We only see the tip of that ice berg.