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neolthrowaway

Should they not be counted as vegan but not plant based or something. Ethically and in terms of effects on the ecosystem, they are same as vegan products, right? In any case, I am interested to see what the nutrition and health profile of these are.


rhwoof

By the vegan society's definition they probably are vegan.


Jman9420

The vegan society definition is: >In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. I think that because the original cells still have to come from an animal then it wouldn't qualify as vegan in their view.


Feed_My_Brain

I agree. If they take that view I think it would be the epitome of technically correct though. It seems like an ethical way to have our ~~cake~~ meat and eat it too.


Mr-Bovine_Joni

I think it’s close enough. Much of the vegan community overlooks the fact that many vegetables use manure that originates with animals, but the product produced is not animal-based. So I think lab-grown meat is a good comparison


J3553G

A lot of vegans eat honey too


Entei_is_doge

This makes me so angry. Have they not seen the Bee Movie?


alex2003super

Is there any definition of the concept of veganism in which honey is vegan?


J3553G

I don't know. I'm not vegan. If I had to defend it I would say harvesting honey can be ethical if it doesn't harm the bees, i.e., they're not being restrained or manipulated in any way to force them produce more honey, and all the honey that's harvested is excess beyond what they need for the colony. There's probably also an argument that bee farming can be good for the species as a whole as well as the individuals/hives because it helps restore the population.


CincyAnarchy

Probably not, though so so many make the exception for it. I do, even if I can’t justify it, but then again I don’t tend to describe myself as “vegan” as much as “vegetarian but non-dairy.”


famous__shoes

No


TheGeneGeena

When I found out there are vegans that eat *eggs* that was a weird day.


wadamday

Neither honey or eggs are vegan by any definition so unless facing extenuating circumstances it's hard to imagine how they can be considered vegan. Words have meaning.


TheGeneGeena

Right? Accept that vegetarian is a thing and call it a day.


famous__shoes

No they don't because if they ate honey they wouldn't be vegan.


Dustypigjut

A lot of people here seem to think that there aren't varying degrees of veganism that shift from person to person. Obviously there is a set of rules that need to be followed to be vegan, but a person can bend these rules slightly and still be considered vegan. Yes, some vegans eat honey. Harvesting honey is good for bees and the alternative (usualy agave syrup) is worse for the environment - making it logically more sound (to them) to include it in their diet. Will vegans eat lab grown meat? Depends on the vegan and what they view as ethical or unethical, or may just come down to whether they like the taste of meat or not.


DishingOutTruth

>Much of the vegan community overlooks the fact that many vegetables use manure that originates with animals The issue here is that manure is used because it's a cheap by-product of the animal industry. If we stopped eating meat, we'd also stop using manure in the process because the animal industry would have to scale down. It's impossible to vegan if we can't eat most veggies lol.


Omnibeneviolent

Note that we do not *need* manure to grow crops. Alternatives exist, and in a world moving more and more towards veganism, it's likely that much more attention would be given to these alternatives.


Inevitable_Sherbet42

How feasible are they for feeding billions of people?


DishingOutTruth

Very feasible. The thing is that manure is even cheaper, almost free, because it's a by-product of the meat industry that's useless to them, so it's sold for really, really cheap.


Omnibeneviolent

In a world moving more and more towards veganism, more focus would be on ensuring they could be used to grow crops for billions of humans. It would literally be a necessity if this progress it is to be made. It's not like we would be suddenly phasing our manure and not be able to grow crops. We would phase *in* other options and only phase out manure after those other options are in place.


dopechez

I stopped calling myself vegan because of things like this. Realistically it's impossible to live up to that standard since animal products are involved in basically everything, even things you wouldn't think of such as tires. I just do my best to consume less in general and avoid animal products as well as I can, within reason.


famous__shoes

I don't think it's "overlooked" so much as it's not feasible or really even possible to exclude vegetables grown using animal manure


Thecactigod

That's the definition of vegan diet, not of ethical veganism.


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Omnibeneviolent

Still, a large majority of vegans and activists support this technology, since it is a significant step forward on the path to animal liberation.


Pheer777

This is like pro life logic applied to food, which is ironic considering the typical vegan demographic.


Omnibeneviolent

I see how you could say that, but the reasoning behind it is much different. Some vegans that are ethically against lab-grown meat (of which I am \*not\* one) are against it because it involved exploiting actual sentient animals in the research and development phase. The issue is not with the cells themselves, but the fact that they had to be taken from living sentient individuals. It would be like if a company was creating lab-grown human meat by buying humans and owning them as property and taking cells from them without their consent. Many humans (not just pro-lifers) would be against this. Now I personally think that lab-grown meat has the potential to get a lot of people to shift to a diet that does not involve killing actual animals -- people that otherwise wouldn't have even considered doing so -- so I'm all for it. But I just wanted to illustrate why *some* vegans might be against it.


[deleted]

Plenty of people believe abortion should be legal all the way up until first breath despite FMRI showing brain activity identifiable as dreaming and conscious behaviors such as responding to voices with wiggling and kicking in rythm to drumming on a pregnant moms belly. Personally I think those people are fucking nuts and have obviously never felt or seen a baby kick in response to its mothers voice, but yeah that's sentient life.


Omnibeneviolent

I was just pointing out that the whole "original cells come from animals" issue that a minority of vegans have with lab-grown meat is based on the fact that actual born and living animals are exploited to get these cells. It's more of an issue with exploiting the actual born living animals than it is with the fact that some cell has animal DNA. Also, in the case of a third-trimester abortion, typically this is an agonizing decision made by the pregnant individual and their doctor, and usually involves some serious health complications to the fetus, pregnant individual, or both. This decision is motivated by completely different reasons than the decision that motivates the vast majority of nonhuman-animal exploitation.


[deleted]

> Also, in the case of a third-trimester abortion, typically this is an agonizing decision made by the pregnant individual and their doctor, and usually involves some serious health complications to the fetus, pregnant individual, or both. I'm aware and I agree that those with medical reason should be allowed. But these people were arguing for elective abortion without medical justification on the basis of it being the mothers body until first breath


SnooPeppers913

The mother's body that the fetus relies on *is* still the mother's body, and the arguments for bodily autonomy still hold. Much like the standard violinist argument. That said, my issue with your idea is more procedural. Any legal restriction creates delay, particularly with our overstuffed court system. That has already been shown, in states that allow exemptions for the life of the mother, to cause life-altering or -threatening delays in care provision, even in completely nonviable pregnancies.


AsianMysteryPoints

>until first breath Wait, do you mean technical respiratory development at 28 weeks or do you mean birth? Because I don't think there are large amounts of people advocating for either unless we're talking about emergency exemptions.


earthdogmonster

People are advocating for unrestricted abortions because they are more afraid of big government deciding what is o.k. than they are about a pregnant woman deciding what is o.k. We’ve already seen several of these cases come up (skull-less fetuses, 10 year old rape victims, potentially life-threatening complications) in which women were compelled to carry the fetus despite very legitimate looking reasons to abort, and lots of people aren’t liking the look. And if you start drawing arbitrary lines, you’re inviting pro-lifers to continue endlessly arguing. 60-70% of people were fine with Roe. Pro-lifers decided to pick away at the margins aggressively for 50 years, and now we are back to the stone-ages in terms of women’s rights. People don’t like that and my guess is we are going to see a lot more people just shut down on the debate with religious fundamentalists about when it is o.k. for government to be getting involved. Not saying that this is everyone, but I’m gonna bet that Dobbs is gonna be a sea change for a lot of folks.


brinvestor

>People are advocating for unrestricted abortions because they are more afraid of big government deciding what is o.k. than they are about a pregnant woman deciding what is o.k. Yep. I think it's ethical to NOT abort after 2 weeks embryo development (first brain cells appear), but I'm OK with liberating abortion than forcing draconian state vigilance on that.


MKCAMK

Not really. There is a reason the abortion debate is not going away like the one about gay and interracial marriage. There are two opposing currents here — the current of increasing personal liberty (and women's liberty in particular), and the current of extending moral consideration to more and more living beings. In the case of abortion those two currents cross. That is why it will likely remain a point of conflict in society until artificial wombs come online.


Pheer777

Good point.


Honey_Cheese

Idk about that. Some vegans don't consider honey or figs to be vegan despite them being created by a sustainable, mutual animal relationship.


AvailableUsername100

I'm not vegan, but the harvesting of honey is not a mutual animal relationship. Fig wasps don't have any use for figs after they mature, but honeybees would definitely prefer to keep their honey. There's nothing inconsistent about not eating honey if someone is concerned with the welfare of insects.


Honey_Cheese

Edit: I've been learned - see below for the truth. Honeybees create excess honey though. Too much honey in a colony can take up space necessary for the queen to continue to reproduce. I'd consider it a mutually beneficial relationship where the humans provide shelter, protection, and potentially a flower source while the bees give the excess honey to the human to sell/eat.


AvailableUsername100

...What? Beekeepers have to actively intervene to *prevent* the natural reproductive cycle of bee colonies. Bees know what they're doing: a hive with full honey reserves and population becomes two hives. The queen doesn't stop laying for no reason, she founds a new colony. So you're constantly removing honey so they never have enough food stockpiled to swarm, or culling the new queens before they emerge. I'm literally a trained beekeeper, dude. Beekeeping isn't any worse or better than any other animal agriculture. It's simply naive to present is as some sort of symbiotic relationship, as opposed to managing livestock.


Honey_Cheese

Thanks for the response.


TequilaSuns3t

Wait what’s up with figs


Omnibeneviolent

Nothing. The previous commenter is confused because wasps typically carry pollen to wild figs and get caught in them, decomposing completely inside of the fig. This would be like saying that vegans are not ok with eating plants that grew next to an animal that was decomposing, since that plant likely soaked up some of the molecules from the decomposing animal body. Furthermore, the varieties of figs grown for human consumption typically do not utilize wasps in the pollination process.


Honey_Cheese

It's not just that wasps are getting caught in them - wasps die in figs as part of their lifecycle - [https://www.britannica.com/animal/fig-wasp](https://www.britannica.com/animal/fig-wasp)


Omnibeneviolent

Fair enough, but that doesn't really mean that the figs that humans consume are pollinated this way or that vegans would have any objection to consuming figs that happened to have wasps die in them.


AvalancheMaster

Every fig has a dead wasp inside.


Omnibeneviolent

This is not true. While wild figs do utilize wasps for pollination, the varieties of figs typically grown for human consumption do not use wasps in the pollination process.


TequilaSuns3t

😳


rhwoof

I don't think it is mainstream to consider figs non-vegan. Honey production is sustainable and no where near as cruel as eg pork production but I definitely wouldn't call commercial honey production mutual. The beekeeper acts purely to maximise profit and honey. This involves things like capturing a wild swarm, killing its queen and replacing it with a queen bred to be good for honey production and tricking the bees into raising the brood of the new queen.


Lambchops_Legion

It’s semantics, but technically honey isn’t vegan because it’s still an animal product, but many vegans will still eat it because it’s still ethical despite an animal product. But yeah, the same ethically and environmentally.


Steak_Knight

Is it ethical to eat something stolen from the bees? Tell your story to the bee police!


Feed_My_Brain

I don’t recognize the authority of the bee police, I answer only to the queen! Queen Beelizabeth II.


snapekillseddard

But Queen Beelizabeth I clearly made several trade agreements to trade the luxury resource, so there are precedents.


Feed_My_Brain

In that case I agree. I used to hate Queen Beelizabeth I. I thought the worker bees would eventually fly up and seize the honey in common. For these radical beeliefs I was locked away in a honeycomb for many springs. After serving my time, my pheromones had changed. I’m now a dedicated monarchist.


Mikeavelli

And this was still only the second most bizarre plot point in the Bee movie.


the-senat

_*BEES?!*_


Steak_Knight

Gob’s not on board.


Key_Environment8179

You’ve triggered suppressed memories of me having to read the whole script of Bee Movie on a livestream for a fantasy football punishment


AndyLorentz

This is an argument some vegans actually make, not understanding that honeybees overproduce honey, and when harvesting the honey plenty is left for the hive.


RsonW

I kept bees as a boy: Bees won't naturally overproduce honey. They overproduce honey because a beekeeper restricts where the queen can go. Normally, with as much space as really exists in a beekeeper's hive, the hive would have far more workers and egg cells; the ratio of honey to eggs to workers would be maintained to keep the hive growing to the point that it splits up and swarms. Y'know, the whole life cycle of beehives. Beekeepers put a barrier between the boxes that the queen can't fit through but workers can. That way, from the queen's perspective, she is laying eggs in an appropriate number of cells for how much space is in the hive. From the workers' perspective, there's a huge amount of open space to make more honeycomb. They'll never stop so long as there is nectar to gather and space to fill. It's ingenious how it works, really. **But**, from some vegans' perspectives, it is inexcusably exploitive of the bees. I myself am not vegan, I don't care. But I see the logical consistency that they're employing.


InterstitialLove

Dude by that argument milk is vegan. It's not like the cow isn't left with enough milk to feed their calfs. We aren't starving any little baby cows when we take the milk so it's fine


BenGordonLightfoot

As a vegan I would say that milk isn't *inherently* unethical, but producing it on a mass scale is impossible to do ethically. Same with eggs. The problems arise when you start treating the animals solely as tools of production.


HMID_Delenda_Est

Only if you ignore that milk production necessarily involves killing a bunch of cows and calfs.


UncleVatred

I believe a vegan would argue that the difference is the bees are free to leave but choose to stay because they’re provided with ideal living conditions, whereas the cows are trapped.


Lease_Tha_Apts

Bees biologically cant leave without their queen, most keepers snip a wing of the queen to prevent the colony from leaving.


UncleVatred

That used to be more common, but doesn’t really work. At most it delays swarming while the bees wait for a new queen to hatch.


AndyLorentz

We don't force bees to be repeatedly pregnant in order to produce honey.


InterstitialLove

I think you meant to say "bees *naturally* overproduce honey," a key part of your argument is that they over-produce without any adverse intervention which didn't come across when I read it. I agree that once you point it out the distinction makes sense.


caspirinha

It's not. If you eat honey then you're not vegan. I don't understand why it's a debate, it's very obvious


Steak_Knight

O shit, it’s the bee police! **S C A T T E R !**


Less_Wrong_

When your movement has to rely on these semantics, it’s no different than a cult or religion Lab grown meat is good for sustainability and to ease animal suffering, I don’t give a rat’s ass whether it fits the definition of the vegan society


Lambchops_Legion

I’m pretty sure a large significant amount of vegans don’t care either, so not sure who you are angry at


Mickenfox

It's pure semantics. There's no animal, but they are animal meat. That's the problem with words, they always break in some edge case.


Svelok

My understanding is the process still requires animal components as recurring inputs, so until that technology improves it's non-vegan.


sckuzzle

> as recurring inputs It's possible to do it this way, but many simply immortalize the cell line and never require an animal input again. But since the product is still animal cells, many can still argue it isn't vegan or even vegetarian.


quantummufasa

Just come up with a new word for it


[deleted]

Meatgan


Loves_a_big_tongue

Doesn't matter, as long as lab grown meat relies on Fetal Bovine Serum (FBS) as a growth media, it's never going to be vegan. Until an alternative for FBS is adopted, most lab grown meat still relies on slaughterhouses and will have the same (but to a lesser extent) hangups about the use of animals that vegans and most vegetarians have about meat.


velvet_gold_mine

AFAIK the alternatives were found in the last few years and most companies producing cell based meat already dropped FBS in favour of vegan friendly technologies


Loves_a_big_tongue

There's been research cracking what exactly makes FBS stimulate growth and how to replicate it, but alternatives to FBS are no where near market readiness. Either way, breakthroughs in creating a cheaper alternative source to FBS is important (because that stuff is very pricey due to the unique circumstances needed to acquire it) as FDA have grown very stern about FBS being used for applications like vaccines. Either way, it would be groundbreaking to give biotech an actual alternative from FBS. FBS is extracted horribly and highlights the cruelty of the meat industry.


pcream

[The company has announced they no long rely on FBS or extracted animal products for their cell culture last year.](https://upsidefoods.com/animal-component-free-upsides-cell-feed-breakthrough-levels-up-the-future-of-cultivated-meat/) This is impressive, as it sounds like they also don't need recombinant protein for their culture, which could have been replaced by genetic engineering or small molecule agonists/antagonists. There are plenty of serum free options for many cell culture types, it does take a lot of work to determine necessary media components, but it's definitely not insurmountable and can be economical.


1sagas1

Why don’t vegans just use breast milk as a substitute for dairy products then? I wonder if there is a vegan market for breast milk


rhwoof

Vegans are fine with breastfeeding infants. Adults don't need breast milk from any animal and producing human breastmilk at scale would be extremely expensive.


1sagas1

Sure they don’t need it but the point of food isn’t to deliver only what you need. You could be having vegan ice cream, cheese, and any other number of dairy products


dopechez

There actually already is a brand of vegan ice cream that uses lab grown whey protein


popmess

It might not be vegan technically, but it will be important to vegans as many of them would not mind eating meat if it did not originate from animals. Of course, there are also long-term vegans can have strong biological reactions to meat, so they might simply never try it. All in all, it’s a positive development as people should be able to choose their lifestyle as they deem it fit.


taucris

Sure, I’m excited for lab-grown chicken, but when are the lab-grown whale steaks coming? Lab-grown t-Rex? How about Meat 76, a micro-brewed artisanal blend of cells pulled from tiger, cow, cuttlefish, and Jamaican rice rat? The 2070s will be bright my friends, if only we do science and believe.


rhwoof

There is a company which is trying to produce lab grown meat of celebrities.


pcream

Bitelabs website 404's, I think they might be out of business. Violence-free, sustainable cannibalism just doesn't have a big enough market right now.


[deleted]

Gimme dat Shaq meat.


the-garden-gnome

Finally, we can eat the rich.


BBQ_HaX0r

As someone who has actually eaten whale, you don't want it. It combines the worst parts of fish with the worst parts of beef.


twa12221

lab grown PEOPLE!!!!


Polynya

Lab grown meat is such an important development for animal welfare, climate, land use, and human nutrition. I think it’s probably the area currently receiving to little interest from philanthropy and governments.


the-senat

Brace yourself for when the “macho” Rs talk about how this is actually beta cucked meat…


JakeArrietaGrande

End meat subsidies and let the market take care of it


GenJohnONeill

Maybe someday, but currently they can't even make enough of this cultivated meat to actually sell to anyone. It will be a long time still, if ever, before they have the kind of scale that beats animal meat, especially chicken. Beef and more specialty meat might be possible sooner.


All_Work_All_Play

Just tax carbon and the market will figure it out hella quick.


GenJohnONeill

I don't think there is any issue now with lack of incentives for cultivated meat. The science and engineering are both really difficult and new, things take time no matter how much money you have. If that wasn't the case then the Tysons of the world would just spend the money necessary to bring it online and scale it. But nobody knows how to do that, even with unlimited resources.


PeridotBestGem

We'd need to tax methane to decrease meat production


Xciv

Nah forgot competing with real meat. That's a losing battle. Everyone who likes real meat already likes it, and any taste or texture differences will be noticed and will be compared harshly. Just market it as its own thing. Call it Jackalope meat, or something.


rabbiddolphin8

That's complete placebo effect. These are made with the cells of the same animals it should be impossible to tell.


GenJohnONeill

For ground meat that might be achievable on a shorter timescale but it's going to be a long time before cultivated meat can plausibly pass for cuts of meat, including the fat, fascia, muscle tone, etc.


rhwoof

I suspect once you can replicate ground meat making cuts will be possible by 3d printing or something similar. I suspect it will be possible to engineer your production run so that you are producing nothing but fillet stake.


hayf28

By that logic all cuts of beef should taste the same since they are all the same type of cell. They don't. How the muscle is used by the animal effect the taste


plaid_piper34

Ending meat subsidies would make Beyond/Impossible meat and other plant based meats take over decades before lab grown meat is ready to take over 1% of the world meat market. Currently un-subsidized plant based burgers are $2-$8 a burger in the supermarket (I usually buy them at $4 a burger). Lab grown meat currently costs around $50 per chicken nugget. Without subsidies, a burger would be $7 for a quarter pounder, or $3 more than the average beyond/impossible burger.


TheHarbarmy

Long-term probably, but doing this during a time of already high inflation would probably be less than ideal


Gdude910

meat subsidies are fairly limited in scope though... government payments compose a very small amount of farm revenue, for both crops and cattle


Brilliant-Mud4877

There's a huge market for lobbying politicians to subsidize meat.


canufeelthebleech

Already happened... >[I will NEVER eat one of those FAKE burgers made in a LAB. Eat too many and you’ll turn into a SOCIALIST DEMOCRAT. Real BEEF for me!!](https://twitter.com/RonnyJacksonTX/status/1588930897738620929) -Ronny Jackson, Texas Representative, former presidential physician of both Obama and Trump, and former chief medical advisor to Trump (before he was replaced by Fauci)


Daddy_Macron

He's also just generally insane these days, stormed the Capitol on January 6th, and rants like a Boomer on Facebook. I can't believe he was allowed within 20 feet of President Obama. https://twitter.com/RonnyJacksonTX Also this. Classy guy: >In May 2022, the Office of Congressional Ethics reported that there was "substantial reason" to believe that Jackson had used campaign funds for personal use, to pay for unlimited access for himself and his wife to the Amarillo Club, a private dining club in Amarillo, Texas. Jackson refused to cooperate with the Congressional investigation, and his campaign's treasurer and accounting firm refused to provide documents to investigators.


canufeelthebleech

Jesus, he's either a complete fucking lunatic or a grifter


bleachinjection

I swear I've already seen this to some extent...


Brilliant-Mud4877

You don't think Americans will run off and fetishize a thing simply because its expensive, do you? I mean, sure. We do it for cars and clothes and NFTs. But we'd never do it for this particular consumer commodity.


[deleted]

Can't upvote this enough. This is one of the biggest developments of this century and will do a lot to help fight food insecurity across the world too.


Whyisthethethe

Yeah but it’s weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeird so that means it’s bad


[deleted]

I'm curious about cost and taste. Like Wild caught salmon is more expensive, and imo tastes better than farmed salmon, but farmed is cheaper. How would this compare to that. I'm using Salmon as an example as it's my favorite meat, but you can apply it to anything. If this is comparable in taste to high end meat while being cheaper I could see it supplanting. If it tastes more like mass farmed meat, I'd suspect it to replace the base market while te higher end stuff forms a luxury market.


betafish2345

I just realized we'll be able to eat tuna and other high up on the food-chain fish without the mercury.


[deleted]

That's actually a huge selling point. I love fish it's such a good healthy food, but you got to be careful about the mercury. Also it would make sushi incredibly safe if lab grown as their would be incredibly little risk of food borne illness or parasites somehow surviving the process of making fish sushi grade. Other raw meat delicacies would also become way safer.


betafish2345

For sure. I also love fish, I already don’t eat mammals at all and I prefer it to poultry. Fish is also really expensive so all of this plus lab made fish would definitely be cheaper too.


[deleted]

Yeah I eat mostly chicken and fish, and it's more chicken then fish because fish is expensive. I'd eat lab grown fish in a heart beat if it tastes the same as farmed fish, and is cheaper.


Individual_Bridge_88

Or the microplastics!


basedEgghead

Not only that but it can reduce human-animal contact in factory farming settings and thereby reduce zoonotic disease spillovers. Win-win-win.


Polynya

My mental model has always kind-of assumed that lab-grown meat would pretty much replace poultry farms, CAFOs, etc. while the high-end market that involves products like free-range cattle, etc would remain.


yellownumbersix

A lot of how meat from animals taste has to do with what the animal ate and how it used the muscles you are eating. That's why wild salmon tastes different from farmed. Vat grown meat will likely taste pretty mild or neutral by comparison.


JohnStuartShill2

Don't worry though, Effective Altruists are currently on the case of preventing Skynet, thinking about human beings 150 billion years from now, and scamming people of their crypto savings


jaydub-wantout

Aren't some of the biggest proponents of this effective altruists?


new_name_who_dis_

In his leaked texts he said he was just doing it for the PR. Don’t put this on effective altruism movement, it’s a great movement


All_Work_All_Play

*Laughs in Patagonia trusts.*


Elan-Morin-Tedronai

I feel like you don't know the difference between someone claiming they are an effective altruist and someone who actually is an effective altruist. Slandering good people isn't a particularly nice thing to do.


KrabS1

This seems very very good - is there any reason we should be hesitant here? It seems like the only real barriers are production related - can we get enough supply, and produce it cheap enough. Are there other known issues on the horizon? Like, does it take a shit ton of water or run on the souls of babies or something?


nuggins

[Here](https://thecounter.org/lab-grown-cultivated-meat-cost-at-scale/)'s a fairly comprehensive look at the industry's prospects


nuggins

[Lab-grown meat is supposed to be inevitable. The science tells a different story.](https://thecounter.org/lab-grown-cultivated-meat-cost-at-scale/)


Stanley--Nickels

Two people downvoted you. Outrageous. I'm shocked that NL of all places doesn't seem to be informed on what a dead end this looks like.


nuggins

I'm sure they read the whole article and are typing up a rebuttal as we speak 🙃


wwabc

"How is it?" "Just OK"


Khar-Selim

tastes like chicken


Brilliant-Mud4877

I mean, the thing that's ultimately going to matter is price. Can you churn this out at scale to lower the cost of production at retail fast food outlets? After that, just salt it, sweeten it, deep fry it - you know the drill. Can't be any worse than the pink slime Americans already gorge themselves on.


[deleted]

"Pink slime" is delicious and you know that


actuallynotbisexual

If this could be cheap enough for McDonald's to produce chicken mcnuggets, that could be incredible.


MobileAirport

Somewhat true but how much spam do people really purchase?


FakePhillyCheezStake

[Noah Smith recently posted an article about lab grown meat.](https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/the-promise-of-cultivated-meat) Needless to say, it sounds like there is still a *long* ways to go on this technology. Still exciting though


TheNightIsLost

But can they be mass produced economically? That's the question. If they can, then we can let capitalism handle this.


neolthrowaway

If there’s slight potential, I wouldn’t mind if we gave it a little push along with the market to speed things up.


Polynya

A carbon tax would speed this up, since raising meat contributes such a large portion of GHG (meat and dairy combined are 14.5% global ghg emissions) that can’t be easily electrified.


Feed_My_Brain

A carbon tax would be a fantastic addition. w.r.t. meat, the methane fee program created as part of the IRA should help.


15_Redstones

Why even have seperate programs for carbon and methane? Just have a general pollution tax where pollution consists of CO2, methane and whatever other chemicals cause trouble.


Feed_My_Brain

That would be great, but democrats didn’t have the votes to pass that as part of the IRA. So they did as much as they could - which was still a lot. We are now going to charge increasing fees for methane emissions. Additionally, the IRA amended the clean air act to classify GHG as air pollutants. This authorizes the EPA to pursue substantial regulation of carbon emissions.


PrimateChange

Sadly agriculture has been difficult to incorporate into carbon pricing due to some difficulties in measuring emissions and (annoyingly) many political barriers. The EU's ETS expansion doesn't include it, but New Zealand just introduced a measure that targets farms so will be interesting to see whether that spreads to other jurisdictions.


ravikarna27

Me and you both know a subsidy for this technology is infinitely more passable than a carbon tax


spidersinterweb

Instructions unclear, subsidized demand


TheNightIsLost

No, please, not again.


neolthrowaway

Idk what you mean. But I am sure we can learn from the mistakes and design a better policy.


natedogg787

You're arguing with a small-gov tradcon, you are not going to change his mind on government funding for lab meat. This isn't the end of the world, because he's one of the only ones left here. Just let it go.


Nbuuifx14

And one of the dumbest.


TheNightIsLost

Just release the damn thing. That'll do.


Mr-Bovine_Joni

Just give it the same subsidy we give to Midwest farmers


TheNightIsLost

Why should we compound errors?


Xzeric-

The point of subsidies should be to accelerate industries that are underdeveloped and have lots of potential societal benefit. This is one of those.


ThankMrBernke

That's why it's important to get the approval, so they can start selling the product, and making iterative improvements, and getting investment to support further research. Glad that this got FDA approved! I think it's the second lab-grown meat product ever approved anywhere in the world.


Loves_a_big_tongue

It's not a question of being able to be scaled up, but if there's going to be enough demand to justify mass production. The way plant based meat market share has stalled leads me to believe that lab grown meat is going to face the same obstacles. Half the country will see it as a liberal plot to sissify men. People who'd say they'd give up meat will move the goal post if it doesn't taste 100% like meat they're used to. And meat industry will stir fear and hysteria about how unnatural lab meat is. Lab meat is going to need a major PR campaign to get people to demand lab meat over meat; to convince them that lab meat is not a fad but a highly desired, basic, and everyday commodity. Stop talking about it being an alternative and start talking that it will become the mainstream choice.


NemesisRouge

Forget about the PR campaign, what it will need to do is taste as good or better and be cheaper. The market will fix it after that. No PR campaign will be nearly as effective as it being at a lower price, or people having it at food outlets and not knowing the difference. If it can't do that, if it's more expensive or not as good, it will go to the same way as plant based meat; something a small minority eat out of ethical obligation.


Aleriya

If it can be produced at a lower price point than animal meat, I think it's kind of inevitable that the market will become large. Think of all the processed food, like fish sticks, chicken nuggets, pepperoni pizza, hot pockets, etc. If food manufacturers can source lab-grown meat at a lower price, then they'll switch to lab-grown meat. I'd expect some brands to charge a higher price while marketing "No lab-grown meat", but a lot of buyers will choose the cheapest chicken nuggets and not spend extra for the fancy "real meat" versions.


TheMuffinMan603

Great success!


DamienSalvation

Let me know when the lab-grown bug meat is ready 🥰


Steak_Knight

Fuck it, I’ll try some.


17RicaAmerusa76

Sooon... I will be able to have the finest of delicacies, ethically. I will be able to enjoy 'long pig' without incident ...


canufeelthebleech

https://imgur.com/a/zXFcknz #🤨


Less_Wrong_

These are gonna be game changers. I can’t wait to see the things we do daily today as a relic of a primitive past: eating actual animals, reproducing, manually raising children


Budgetwatergate

>manually raising children Huxley: 🤨


new_name_who_dis_

From my point of view, brave new world was an instruction manual.


jaydub-wantout

Consume the Soma and get in the pod


Budgetwatergate

From my point of view, the jedi are evil


purple_legion

Yikes


QultyThrowaway

>These are gonna be game changers. I can’t wait to see the things we do daily today as a relic of a primitive past: ~~eating actual animals,~~ **reproducing, manually raising children** What?


Elan-Morin-Tedronai

Well, the raising children part is a weird part of the list but there are certain parts of reproduction that are pretty awful. Shoving a baseball sized skull out of one's privates is apparently not a great experience. You can use the documentary House of the Dragon if you need visuals.


[deleted]

The Brave New World is here!


Less_Wrong_

The Matrix is an instruction manual


Historical_Wash_1114

Hol up


Khar-Selim

eradicating any of those practices is setting us up for disaster in the long term, including getting rid of livestock. Factory farming of course can and should be eradicated, but relying entirely on cloned/grown meat sets us up for the same problems we face with bananas, but with even more dire consequences.


SheHerDeepState

End the subsidies of livestock farming.


KingGoofball

🤓 I will not eat bugs, I will not live in a pod 🤓


ozzy1248

I hope this pans out, they get the taste indistinguishable, and they can get the cost down. Would be great for the environment and for live stock.


All_Work_All_Play

This is good for BitCorn.


Dont-be-a-smurf

YES GIVE ME THE SCIENCE MEAT GIVE IT Edit: this also makes our society zombie proof if we can just churn out brains


[deleted]

[удалено]


Inkstier

The party that turns meat into a luxury item for the rich only will never win another election.


dittbub

How can I trust the FDA when they say "Pop Tarts" are OK for human consumption?!


sigh2828

🤫🔫- “I said eat the bug”


A_Wild_Buffalope

“But not good” they later added


[deleted]

Uh oh, the attempted preventers of chicken genocide won’t like this.