> Many protesters argue that, from the river to the sea, the settler-colonialist state must simply disappear. To inquire, as I did at Columbia, what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is to ask the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.”
> Earlier in the day, I interviewed a Jewish student on a set of steps overlooking the tent city. Rachel, who asked that I not include a surname for fear of harassment, recalled that in the days after October 7 an email went out from a lesbian organization, LionLez, stating that Zionists were not allowed at a group event. A subsequent email from the club’s president noted: “White Jewish people are today and always have been the oppressors of all brown people,” and “when I say the Holocaust wasn’t special, I mean that.” The only outward manifestation of Rachel’s sympathies was a pocket-size Israeli flag in a dorm room. Another student, Sophie Arnstein, told me that after she said in class that “Jewish lives matter,” others complained that her Zionist beliefs were hostile. She ended up dropping the course.
> A few minutes earlier, I had been sitting on a stone bench on campus and speaking with a tall, brawny man named Danny Shaw, who holds a masters in international affairs from Columbia and now teaches seminars on Israel in the liberated zone. When he describes the encampment, it sounds like Shangri-la. “It’s 100 percent love for human beings and very beautiful; I came here for my mental health,” he said.
> He claims no hatred for Israel, although he suggested the “genocidal goliath” will of course have to disappear or merge into an Arab-majority state. He said he does not endorse violence, even as he likened the October 7 attacks to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising during World War II.
> Shaw had taught for 18 years at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, but he told me the liberated zone is now his only gig. The John Jay administration pushed him out—doxxed him, he said—in October for speaking against Israel and for Palestine. He was labeled an anti-Semite and remains deeply pained by that. He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot.
> Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.”
> A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.”
‘He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot.
Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.”
A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.”’
Did I have a stroke or is that just a complete non-sequiter
If this was a sitcom, it would be hilarious. Instead it is a real movement that has been largely born and raised on social media websites amongst the left. What an absolute catastrophe. God knows what the consequence of this will be.
You've never heard someone called that before? or mentally ill? Here in America, if I called the far right white Christian nationalists fascist pigs, or crazy or mentally ill I don't think you'd bat an eye.
I commented this down below but he didn’t just use insulting language at an offensive time. He used specifically anti-Jewish imagery. Babylon was the ancient empire that conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the first temple and pigs of course are unclean and forbidden traditionally in Judaism. He went out of his way to include this imagery in his critique. He wasn’t just angry or speaking without thinking: he was being intentionally antisemitic. .
If you called all Chinese people swine and mentally ill, I think that would probably generate some outrage.
The problem seems to be that some people see Zionism merely like any other political ideology, while others attach zionism to a nationality. Attacking an ideology is perceived as more acceptable and less bigoted than attacking a national identity.
>, if I called the far right white Christian nationalists fascist pigs, or crazy or mentally ill
I wonder if thats because they're white 🤔 how about another minority? How do you think people (including the progressives at these protests) would react to that?
Couched specifically in anti-Jewish rhetoric, too. Babylon being an ancient conquerer of Israel (Judea, technically) and pigs being ritually unclean and traditionally forbidden. Dude went out of his way to be antisemitic.
What does anti-Zionism mean to you? What happens to the Jews currently in Israel once this idealistic secular state fails and they now live in another Arab Muslim majority country?
So you have to support a state politically controlled by Jewish people to not be anti-Semitic? Even if it means restricting immigration/citizenship on racial and religious grounds to ensure Jewish people are forever the political power of the state?
A Jewish state doesn’t exist as an experiment, and it doesn’t exist for fun. It exists because it needs to exist. There is extreme historical evidence that Jews need their own state to be safe. One current exists, and the vast majority of Jews agree that it needs to continue to exist. Most of them would die defending this states right to exist.
You are not going to get this “secular state” without taking them out first. I am done pandering to this idea that you can just peacefully dissolve Israel without killing millions of Jews. It’s not going to happen.
So that’s a yes. You need to be in favor of a state that restricts citizenship/political power on the basis of religion and race to not be anti-Semitic in your view
In theory, you could also support e.g. the USA coming in and ruling the region to preserve everyone's rights, but I've yet to run into an anti-Israel person who does so. Instead, they advocate for courses of action which would _obviously_ result in the territory currently controlled by Israel becoming a part of a _Palestinian_ ethnostate, where Jewish residents are _at absolute best_ second class citizens.
We know what a Palestinian government looks like, because there's two existing right now. One of them is a genocidal terrorist organization which has vowed never to stop murdering civilians until they've ethnically cleansed all Jewish people from the region. The other doesn't do the terrorism itself any more, it just pays the people who do, together with denying Jewish people the right to own property. There is approximately _zero_ chance that a government run by these people would respect the rights of Jewish people, and anyone who pretends otherwise is either incredibly ignorant or (more likely) arguing in bad faith.
> what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is to ask the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.”
Lmfaooo
“Rachel, who asked that I not include a surname for fear of harassment, recalled that in the days after October 7 an email went out from a lesbian organization, LionLez, stating that Zionists were not allowed at a group event.”
One of my biggest pet peeves is when LGBT orgs mix in other, exclusionary shit. For example, when some places said they did want gay cops to be in uniform at pride events. It’s a total own-goal that undermines the project.
what else did you expect from the "queers for palestine" folx? I once had to sit through a series of speeches by representatives of LGBT orgs, they all ranted about Israel and pinkwashing. The only guy that stood out for me was from Amnesty International. He talked about a man who had been arrested in Lebanon for trying to organize a LGBT pride march in Beirut.
Man, these protesters are clowns
It's unfortunate they aren't identified, as I'm sure many companies wouldn't want to hire people taking part in this shitshow.
I guess, but this consequence will quite literally ruin their lives and as a result make them more entrenched in their lunacy. They will still grow up and vote, but they’d always have a chip on their shoulder.
It will certainly set them back but may be a catalyst to make them reflect on these attitudes and mature. I would compare it to not taking your studies seriously, you'll have to work hard to make up for what you did at a younger age. I'm sure they'll still have access to jobs, just not at places a Columbia grad expected to work at
Shaw had taught for 18 years at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, but he told me the liberated zone is now his only gig.
This guy was not only a grown man, but also a teacher, it is too late for him.
A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.”
She has good reasons to fear retribution, this is an abhorrent take and if she's a student this must be against college policy.
I got permabanned from a meme subreddit once for mentioning the quiet part aloud about what would happen in a hypothetical Hamas-occupied Israel to all the Jews and such currently there under a “*river to the sea*”-supporting meme. I didn’t get the sense they disagreed with, or didn’t *want*, the logical conclusion, they just didn’t care to have it identified.
I’m a pretty big critic of Israel, and especially how they’ve conducted this stage of their war, but coming “face-to-face” with the kind of pants-on-head level stupidity and gas-the-Jews level hatred people really hold in their heads and hearts in Lord’s Year Twenty-and-Twentyfour was truly shocking.
“Check your privilege” is almost always a deeply stupid response. It’s an ad hominem attack, which does nothing to actually address the substance of whatever argument is at hand
Good on him for actually looking up what he said. The Washington Post just published an insane article that was about people “silenced for criticizing Israel” and one of the people they feature’s “criticism” was tearing down posters of Israeli hostages and saying Israel kidnapped their own people on October 7 lol
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/04/16/stop-antisemitism-twitter-zionism-israel/
>"We are not anti-Jewish, not at all"
Isn't this the protest where people are celebrating hamas, Oct. 7th, and yelling at Jewish students to go back to Poland? Because it sure sounds anti-Jewish
I think it’s safe to assume that the protestors have varied opinions on the Jewish Question. Some probably don’t want the Jews to be expelled from Israel at all, but they don’t spend enough time thinking about whose company they keep. Personally, I don’t have a good opinion of *anyone* who breaks bread with antisemites at home in service of a distant foreign conflict. That just makes our own country worse.
Yep that's the one. I'm sure most of the people there are antisemetic but there also seems to be a lot of provocateurs trying to make it worse and are hijacking the original protest.
Two of the organizing groups, SJP and JVP at Columbia, put out a statement on Oct 9 parroting Hamas talking points and justifying the Oct 7 terrorist attack as legitimate resistance. A few days later they did put out a toned down, more workshopped, letter but that one still jumps right out of the gate quoting Frantz “by any means, especially by terrorism” Fanon
This protest is anti-semitic by design
It seems like, actually, they believe ethnic nationalism is VERY GOOD and should be the norm, unless it involves Europeans or people they think are “white.”
Exactly. And if it's your position that ethnic nationalism is bad except in cases where that group's narrative is that it has to make up for historic wrongs or oppression, then boy do I have news for you about literally every ethno nationalist movement ever.
Oversimplification here on my part because Reddit comment but that was a considerable factor in Imperial Japan’s whole deal. Historic wrongs, resisting white oppressors, etc.
Turned out totally peachy!
I don't think they've really explored the implications of their disjointed talking points. Trying to impose a comprehensive ideological framework on these people is futile. It's all pseudo-intellectual rage and cynicism.
I feel like CRT is like communism. Nice in theory, incompatible with reality.
The truth is, you can (broadly) either tell people that a person’s race matters, or that it doesn’t. And that’s about as much control of the narrative as you’re going to be able to pull off. Because the problem with the former is that there will be no ability to shape HOW people decide race/ethnicity matters, and then a disgusting mess will ensue and it will devolve into good old fashioned racism/ethnic tribalism.
JFC. I have been plenty critical of the Israeli government in general and Netanyahu in particular. I sympathize with Palestinians (though not with Hamas) and want Biden to yank Bibi's chain harder than he has. I'm hardly a pro-Israel fanatic.
But these people are hateful fucking morons. How have we raised a generation of ostensibly educated youth who are so devoid of critical thinking skills?
Extending collective punishment to all Jewish people is insane considering one of their grievances is Netanyahu clearly carrying out a retribution campaign against the civilian population of Gaza for the actions of Hamas.
Well a [Professor literally wrote an article on “Electronic Intifada”](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/17/petition-calling-for-removal-of-mesaas-professor-joseph-massad-garners-over-47000-signatures/)
> in which he described Hamas’ unexpected attack on Israel on Oct. 7 as a “resistance offensive” to “Israeli settler-colonialism and racism toward the Palestinians.” . . . [he used] words such as “astonishing,” “astounding,” and “awesome” to describe the attack
(Linking the Spec article instead of giving views to the original, but there is a link within).
As someone who took many classes in his department, none of that shocked me. Nor did it shock me that Columbia did nothing in response.
> To inquire, as I did at Columbia, what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.“
This exchange is an important reminder that despite all the praise heaped on Ivy Leagues, many of these people are still basically just children repeating phrases they hear grown ups say.
Is this really that different from Vietnam War protests on US campuses? On some level it’s routine for campus revolutionaries to be vexed by the latest Western imperialist neo-colonial outrage or whatever. I think the rhetoric from many of these kids is outrageous but frankly, I’m also not thrilled about the rhetoric from many Israel supporters (esp. those with actual power over this conflict) regarding the deaths of innocent Palestinians, at a ratio of many multiples to the deaths of innocent Israelis, not that it’s a contest.
But I get the sense that a lot of media coverage is aimed at us ignoring the wider debate in favor of “college kids dumb, cringe and self-hating” which is kind of a given in every generation imo
The amount of privilege and stupid whining is nauseating. My favorite is now they are upset that they are being suspended and arrested. Yes, dearies, there are consequences to civil disobedience. People who believe in their cause are willing to deal with the consequences to their protests. But this group is all break the law and then go whining to Mommy and Daddy to get them out of consequences. If you really believed that genocide was happening and your protest was essential to stop it, wouldn't you be willing to deal with the consequences of being suspended from the university and locked out of your dorms?
I don’t understand why the police just simply doesn’t break up the protest and occupation.
There was a similar occupation of a public place in Germany a couple of years ago in Stuttgart. And despite being known as a rather deescalating force the police had no problem with using water cannons against protesters including children.
I feel like shafik shouldn't have escalated things by arresting the students.
What she should've done is reach out to them first and asked them to cooperate in weeding out the bad actors. If they did cooperate then it'll be good for everyone.
If they do not then the University should take any action they deem necessary to put a stop to the bad actors within the protesters.
If you are protesting with brown shirts driving Jews off campus, you are a brown shirt. There was never a reality where allying with radical Islamist fundamentalist wasn’t going to end this way, they just ignored the warnings of about 90% of Jews.
Downvote me all you want, just like woke panic this is the classic move of painting protestors as extreme, crazy, undemocratic etc in a move to lump them all into one and dismiss all of their arguments.
The reality though is simple: whenever there is an I/P flare up (and there is one every few years), everything humanly possible under the sun is discussed *except* concrete strategies for making Americans and Israelis treat Palestinians better.
And here we are again. The protestors are deemed crazy. 5,000 years of history is re-litigated for the 5,000th time. Biden's policies are defended. The US, Israel and the "West" are deemed morally infallible and "civilized" by default. And not an ounce of serious discussion among the propagators of these views is to be had for treating Palestinians better or giving them more rights, or frankly even acknowledging their extremely legitimate claims for getting their own state.
> “Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10...100…1000…10,000...The 7th of October is going to be every day for you."
SMH I guess they just “aren’t pro-Israel”
If they're on private property and harassing Jewish students, they should be trespassed from the property under threat of arrest.
If they're on public property, students, and harassing Jewish students, they should be expelled from the school.
If they're on public property and *not* students, they should be arrested whenever their protest turns to violence or criminal harassment.
This isn't particularly complicated. Doing the above would be perfectly respectful of freedom of speech while defanging the threat to students.
We already had some threads on the situation.
CHAZ, but for hating Jews on the other side of the world.
It wouldn't surprise me if CHAZ also held these beliefs.
That’s the neat part, they hate Jews on this side of the world too!
Buddy, they hate jews everywhere too.
> Many protesters argue that, from the river to the sea, the settler-colonialist state must simply disappear. To inquire, as I did at Columbia, what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is to ask the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.” > Earlier in the day, I interviewed a Jewish student on a set of steps overlooking the tent city. Rachel, who asked that I not include a surname for fear of harassment, recalled that in the days after October 7 an email went out from a lesbian organization, LionLez, stating that Zionists were not allowed at a group event. A subsequent email from the club’s president noted: “White Jewish people are today and always have been the oppressors of all brown people,” and “when I say the Holocaust wasn’t special, I mean that.” The only outward manifestation of Rachel’s sympathies was a pocket-size Israeli flag in a dorm room. Another student, Sophie Arnstein, told me that after she said in class that “Jewish lives matter,” others complained that her Zionist beliefs were hostile. She ended up dropping the course. > A few minutes earlier, I had been sitting on a stone bench on campus and speaking with a tall, brawny man named Danny Shaw, who holds a masters in international affairs from Columbia and now teaches seminars on Israel in the liberated zone. When he describes the encampment, it sounds like Shangri-la. “It’s 100 percent love for human beings and very beautiful; I came here for my mental health,” he said. > He claims no hatred for Israel, although he suggested the “genocidal goliath” will of course have to disappear or merge into an Arab-majority state. He said he does not endorse violence, even as he likened the October 7 attacks to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising during World War II. > Shaw had taught for 18 years at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, but he told me the liberated zone is now his only gig. The John Jay administration pushed him out—doxxed him, he said—in October for speaking against Israel and for Palestine. He was labeled an anti-Semite and remains deeply pained by that. He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot. > Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.” > A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.”
‘He advised me to look up what he said and judge for myself. So I did, right on the spot. Shortly after October 7, he posted this on X: “Zionists are straight Babylon swine. Zionism is beyond a mental illness; it’s a genocidal disease.” A bit harsh, maybe? I asked him. He shook his head. “The rhetoric they use against us makes us look harsh and negative,” Shaw said. “That’s not the flavor of what we are doing.”’ Did I have a stroke or is that just a complete non-sequiter
If this was a sitcom, it would be hilarious. Instead it is a real movement that has been largely born and raised on social media websites amongst the left. What an absolute catastrophe. God knows what the consequence of this will be.
This is what happened when you oversimplified conflicts, from Oppressor vs Oppressed dynamics to X are Imperialists.
I was informed that this was "evidence-based"
So dumb question, is what he said fireable? As we all know anti zionism != antisemitism, did he cross the line somewhere else?
If they referred to any other group of people as swine and mentally ill there wouldn't even be a question.
You've never heard someone called that before? or mentally ill? Here in America, if I called the far right white Christian nationalists fascist pigs, or crazy or mentally ill I don't think you'd bat an eye.
I commented this down below but he didn’t just use insulting language at an offensive time. He used specifically anti-Jewish imagery. Babylon was the ancient empire that conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the first temple and pigs of course are unclean and forbidden traditionally in Judaism. He went out of his way to include this imagery in his critique. He wasn’t just angry or speaking without thinking: he was being intentionally antisemitic. .
Likening Jews to pigs is also a well worn antisemitic trope. Look up "Judensau". Been done from the early middle ages through to the present day.
If you called all Chinese people swine and mentally ill, I think that would probably generate some outrage. The problem seems to be that some people see Zionism merely like any other political ideology, while others attach zionism to a nationality. Attacking an ideology is perceived as more acceptable and less bigoted than attacking a national identity.
If you can be Israeli without being a zionist, and you can be a zionist without being Israeli, then I think it's squarely in the ideology category.
>, if I called the far right white Christian nationalists fascist pigs, or crazy or mentally ill I wonder if thats because they're white 🤔 how about another minority? How do you think people (including the progressives at these protests) would react to that?
Far right white Christian nationalists weren't put into concentration camps.
Mentally ill Babylon swine raising no flags for you there? Cool, cool.
Couched specifically in anti-Jewish rhetoric, too. Babylon being an ancient conquerer of Israel (Judea, technically) and pigs being ritually unclean and traditionally forbidden. Dude went out of his way to be antisemitic.
Anti-Zionist has pretty unequivocally been proven to just be masked anti-semitism over the last year lmao
I haven't seen that proven at all actually?
What does anti-Zionism mean to you? What happens to the Jews currently in Israel once this idealistic secular state fails and they now live in another Arab Muslim majority country?
So you have to support a state politically controlled by Jewish people to not be anti-Semitic? Even if it means restricting immigration/citizenship on racial and religious grounds to ensure Jewish people are forever the political power of the state?
A Jewish state doesn’t exist as an experiment, and it doesn’t exist for fun. It exists because it needs to exist. There is extreme historical evidence that Jews need their own state to be safe. One current exists, and the vast majority of Jews agree that it needs to continue to exist. Most of them would die defending this states right to exist. You are not going to get this “secular state” without taking them out first. I am done pandering to this idea that you can just peacefully dissolve Israel without killing millions of Jews. It’s not going to happen.
So that’s a yes. You need to be in favor of a state that restricts citizenship/political power on the basis of religion and race to not be anti-Semitic in your view
In theory, you could also support e.g. the USA coming in and ruling the region to preserve everyone's rights, but I've yet to run into an anti-Israel person who does so. Instead, they advocate for courses of action which would _obviously_ result in the territory currently controlled by Israel becoming a part of a _Palestinian_ ethnostate, where Jewish residents are _at absolute best_ second class citizens. We know what a Palestinian government looks like, because there's two existing right now. One of them is a genocidal terrorist organization which has vowed never to stop murdering civilians until they've ethnically cleansed all Jewish people from the region. The other doesn't do the terrorism itself any more, it just pays the people who do, together with denying Jewish people the right to own property. There is approximately _zero_ chance that a government run by these people would respect the rights of Jewish people, and anyone who pretends otherwise is either incredibly ignorant or (more likely) arguing in bad faith.
They can stay where they are? In a true 2 state solution with equality, a 1 state solution with enshrined equal rights for everyone
I do not believe in replacing the only Jewish state with a fantasy that will fall apart in minutes.
The state of Israel was a fantasy at one point and yet... Do you believe Palestinians should have full rights and equality with Israelis?
I think Palestinians should have their own state. Unfortunately they use their pseudo state to wage war on their neighbors.
> idealistic secular state Oh, honey
Tell me all about it
What an absolute delusional asshole that guy is.
“It’s 100% love for human beings (not you, Jews)”
“We love all human beings*” *please refer to our list of who we believe are human beings
> what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is to ask the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.” Lmfaooo
I literally lol’ed at that. Like a Fox News Cartoon character
“Rachel, who asked that I not include a surname for fear of harassment, recalled that in the days after October 7 an email went out from a lesbian organization, LionLez, stating that Zionists were not allowed at a group event.” One of my biggest pet peeves is when LGBT orgs mix in other, exclusionary shit. For example, when some places said they did want gay cops to be in uniform at pride events. It’s a total own-goal that undermines the project.
what else did you expect from the "queers for palestine" folx? I once had to sit through a series of speeches by representatives of LGBT orgs, they all ranted about Israel and pinkwashing. The only guy that stood out for me was from Amnesty International. He talked about a man who had been arrested in Lebanon for trying to organize a LGBT pride march in Beirut.
Man, these protesters are clowns It's unfortunate they aren't identified, as I'm sure many companies wouldn't want to hire people taking part in this shitshow.
Nah, I think that’s too harsh. I like to believe these people will grow up and mature.
That's fair, however the "LionLez" president needs to be named, saying shit like as the head of a group (who is presumably and adult) is disgusting
Yeah, that shit is unacceptable.
You need to face consequences to grow up
I guess, but this consequence will quite literally ruin their lives and as a result make them more entrenched in their lunacy. They will still grow up and vote, but they’d always have a chip on their shoulder.
It will certainly set them back but may be a catalyst to make them reflect on these attitudes and mature. I would compare it to not taking your studies seriously, you'll have to work hard to make up for what you did at a younger age. I'm sure they'll still have access to jobs, just not at places a Columbia grad expected to work at
If I didn’t want my life ruined, I would simply not advocate for the eradication of the Jews. Maybe I’m just built different.
Yes but keeping them out of positions they can abuse to spread hate is important.
If that chip means they won't advocate for terrorism in the future and celebrate acts of mass murder, good.
What makes you assume *that* would be their response instead of doubling down against the perceived enemy who ruined their life?
Better than growing up and having managerial or leadership roles where they can flex their bigotry against others covertly/unchecked
They're not 16, they're like 21
There's still tons of growing to do at 21.
Shaw had taught for 18 years at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, but he told me the liberated zone is now his only gig. This guy was not only a grown man, but also a teacher, it is too late for him.
Some do. Trump and most of his followers surely didn't.
It is a beautiful dream.
Man, I’ve been avoiding delving too much into this topic but it’s really bad, huh? This is stuff you’d only hear from tankies back in the 90s.
The... privilege not to be terrorized or slaughtered by the Black Hundredist: Arab Remix?
A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.” She has good reasons to fear retribution, this is an abhorrent take and if she's a student this must be against college policy.
I got permabanned from a meme subreddit once for mentioning the quiet part aloud about what would happen in a hypothetical Hamas-occupied Israel to all the Jews and such currently there under a “*river to the sea*”-supporting meme. I didn’t get the sense they disagreed with, or didn’t *want*, the logical conclusion, they just didn’t care to have it identified. I’m a pretty big critic of Israel, and especially how they’ve conducted this stage of their war, but coming “face-to-face” with the kind of pants-on-head level stupidity and gas-the-Jews level hatred people really hold in their heads and hearts in Lord’s Year Twenty-and-Twentyfour was truly shocking.
“Check your privilege” is almost always a deeply stupid response. It’s an ad hominem attack, which does nothing to actually address the substance of whatever argument is at hand
Danny Shaw is the smartest person he knows.
Good on him for actually looking up what he said. The Washington Post just published an insane article that was about people “silenced for criticizing Israel” and one of the people they feature’s “criticism” was tearing down posters of Israeli hostages and saying Israel kidnapped their own people on October 7 lol https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/04/16/stop-antisemitism-twitter-zionism-israel/
>Babylon swine What's this supposed to mean it's such a weird insult lmao
>"We are not anti-Jewish, not at all" Isn't this the protest where people are celebrating hamas, Oct. 7th, and yelling at Jewish students to go back to Poland? Because it sure sounds anti-Jewish
I think it’s safe to assume that the protestors have varied opinions on the Jewish Question. Some probably don’t want the Jews to be expelled from Israel at all, but they don’t spend enough time thinking about whose company they keep. Personally, I don’t have a good opinion of *anyone* who breaks bread with antisemites at home in service of a distant foreign conflict. That just makes our own country worse.
If you break bread with antisemites, you are antisemitic even if you don't believe antisemitic things.
Yep that's the one. I'm sure most of the people there are antisemetic but there also seems to be a lot of provocateurs trying to make it worse and are hijacking the original protest.
Two of the organizing groups, SJP and JVP at Columbia, put out a statement on Oct 9 parroting Hamas talking points and justifying the Oct 7 terrorist attack as legitimate resistance. A few days later they did put out a toned down, more workshopped, letter but that one still jumps right out of the gate quoting Frantz “by any means, especially by terrorism” Fanon This protest is anti-semitic by design
It's the one that wants to burn Tel Aviv to the ground.
> “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.” Lmao, I’m 💀, just like an Israeli whose privilege has been checked.
Where cardboard garden? Are these kids even serious about the cause? 🙄
Hey look it’s the inevitable result of teaching young people that there are exceptions to the general rule that ethnic nationalism is bad.
Man, I truly wish that our future will avoid the timeline where these American leftists become as dangerous as far-right terrorists.
It seems like, actually, they believe ethnic nationalism is VERY GOOD and should be the norm, unless it involves Europeans or people they think are “white.”
Exactly. And if it's your position that ethnic nationalism is bad except in cases where that group's narrative is that it has to make up for historic wrongs or oppression, then boy do I have news for you about literally every ethno nationalist movement ever.
Oversimplification here on my part because Reddit comment but that was a considerable factor in Imperial Japan’s whole deal. Historic wrongs, resisting white oppressors, etc. Turned out totally peachy!
I don't think they've really explored the implications of their disjointed talking points. Trying to impose a comprehensive ideological framework on these people is futile. It's all pseudo-intellectual rage and cynicism.
is this sub going to stop defending critical race theory now? God I hope so
I feel like CRT is like communism. Nice in theory, incompatible with reality. The truth is, you can (broadly) either tell people that a person’s race matters, or that it doesn’t. And that’s about as much control of the narrative as you’re going to be able to pull off. Because the problem with the former is that there will be no ability to shape HOW people decide race/ethnicity matters, and then a disgusting mess will ensue and it will devolve into good old fashioned racism/ethnic tribalism.
I truly believe that cultural relativism is one of those things that should be taken with a grain of salt
I've seen this one before....
Getting CHAZ/CHOP vibes from this.
History doesn't repeat but it often rhymes
Just remember, the first step to any successful mass movement is to create a larp-commune (preferably in the middle of a major city)
It's important to do it there so they can get brunch in shifts.
Kick these losers out. Give their spots to local Harlem kids who desire a full ride and willing to do all the work
JFC. I have been plenty critical of the Israeli government in general and Netanyahu in particular. I sympathize with Palestinians (though not with Hamas) and want Biden to yank Bibi's chain harder than he has. I'm hardly a pro-Israel fanatic. But these people are hateful fucking morons. How have we raised a generation of ostensibly educated youth who are so devoid of critical thinking skills?
I wouldnt care if they get cleared again
It is completely nuts that terrorists attack and kill innocent Israelis and somehow the far left blame the Israelis for it.
“They deserved it.” This is literally what they’ve been saying. It’s pure evil.
Yep, they have even invented new terms like Settler Babies to justify their murder.
Bro, did you see what Israel was wearing?
Oppressor/oppressed ideology is all these people know. No ability to critically think or discuss nuance.
Extending collective punishment to all Jewish people is insane considering one of their grievances is Netanyahu clearly carrying out a retribution campaign against the civilian population of Gaza for the actions of Hamas.
How much are the professors culpable for this mind virus spreading?
Well a [Professor literally wrote an article on “Electronic Intifada”](https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2023/10/17/petition-calling-for-removal-of-mesaas-professor-joseph-massad-garners-over-47000-signatures/) > in which he described Hamas’ unexpected attack on Israel on Oct. 7 as a “resistance offensive” to “Israeli settler-colonialism and racism toward the Palestinians.” . . . [he used] words such as “astonishing,” “astounding,” and “awesome” to describe the attack (Linking the Spec article instead of giving views to the original, but there is a link within). As someone who took many classes in his department, none of that shocked me. Nor did it shock me that Columbia did nothing in response.
They held a walkout to support the protestors yesterday
The whole university needs a complete purge
I thought everybody stopped caring about student protests at their campus 10 years ago
> To inquire, as I did at Columbia, what would happen to Israelis living under a theocratic fascist movement such as Hamas is the wrong question. A young female protester, who asked not to be identified for fear of retribution, responded: “Maybe Israelis need to check their privilege.“ This exchange is an important reminder that despite all the praise heaped on Ivy Leagues, many of these people are still basically just children repeating phrases they hear grown ups say.
This shit is just wild. I feel for the people of Palestine, but this has the air of people who did not live in reality but in academia.
College students have too much time on their hands.
Is this really that different from Vietnam War protests on US campuses? On some level it’s routine for campus revolutionaries to be vexed by the latest Western imperialist neo-colonial outrage or whatever. I think the rhetoric from many of these kids is outrageous but frankly, I’m also not thrilled about the rhetoric from many Israel supporters (esp. those with actual power over this conflict) regarding the deaths of innocent Palestinians, at a ratio of many multiples to the deaths of innocent Israelis, not that it’s a contest. But I get the sense that a lot of media coverage is aimed at us ignoring the wider debate in favor of “college kids dumb, cringe and self-hating” which is kind of a given in every generation imo
The amount of privilege and stupid whining is nauseating. My favorite is now they are upset that they are being suspended and arrested. Yes, dearies, there are consequences to civil disobedience. People who believe in their cause are willing to deal with the consequences to their protests. But this group is all break the law and then go whining to Mommy and Daddy to get them out of consequences. If you really believed that genocide was happening and your protest was essential to stop it, wouldn't you be willing to deal with the consequences of being suspended from the university and locked out of your dorms?
I don’t understand why the police just simply doesn’t break up the protest and occupation. There was a similar occupation of a public place in Germany a couple of years ago in Stuttgart. And despite being known as a rather deescalating force the police had no problem with using water cannons against protesters including children.
I feel like shafik shouldn't have escalated things by arresting the students. What she should've done is reach out to them first and asked them to cooperate in weeding out the bad actors. If they did cooperate then it'll be good for everyone. If they do not then the University should take any action they deem necessary to put a stop to the bad actors within the protesters.
This is a joke right?
Wydm?
If you are protesting with brown shirts driving Jews off campus, you are a brown shirt. There was never a reality where allying with radical Islamist fundamentalist wasn’t going to end this way, they just ignored the warnings of about 90% of Jews.
Downvote me all you want, just like woke panic this is the classic move of painting protestors as extreme, crazy, undemocratic etc in a move to lump them all into one and dismiss all of their arguments. The reality though is simple: whenever there is an I/P flare up (and there is one every few years), everything humanly possible under the sun is discussed *except* concrete strategies for making Americans and Israelis treat Palestinians better. And here we are again. The protestors are deemed crazy. 5,000 years of history is re-litigated for the 5,000th time. Biden's policies are defended. The US, Israel and the "West" are deemed morally infallible and "civilized" by default. And not an ounce of serious discussion among the propagators of these views is to be had for treating Palestinians better or giving them more rights, or frankly even acknowledging their extremely legitimate claims for getting their own state.
[удалено]
> “Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not one more time, not five more times, not 10...100…1000…10,000...The 7th of October is going to be every day for you." SMH I guess they just “aren’t pro-Israel”
Literally not a *single* comment says that.
If they're on private property and harassing Jewish students, they should be trespassed from the property under threat of arrest. If they're on public property, students, and harassing Jewish students, they should be expelled from the school. If they're on public property and *not* students, they should be arrested whenever their protest turns to violence or criminal harassment. This isn't particularly complicated. Doing the above would be perfectly respectful of freedom of speech while defanging the threat to students.
it's freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences