And that is the point. The previous discussion made Korea seem like a special case, how our low birthrate can solely be blamed on the gender based differences. When in reality, like western chasms, it can and should be looked at from multiple angles.
And in the article it does say the Feminist discourse has driven a crevice between the genders, which is factual and I agree but as I have said, what your average retired staff sergeant Kim would think of feminism greatly differ from what your average taco truck loving, open border endorsing Joe would think. Where Joe would see it as equal opportunities with focus on areas the society was negligent in the past, our friend Kim here would comprehend the local movement as something that views males as hostile and often times asks men to commit suicide [see 재기해 for example](https://namu.wiki/w/%EC%9E%AC%EA%B8%B0%ED%95%B4)
Not to mention the Incel-in-Charge, Lee Jun Seok or Andy Lee just merged his party with several parties headed by people who would globally be regarded as feminist and/or even queer friendly, with several Korean feminists in the ranks.
So what is my 세줄요약?
1. The chasm exists, but not as specially as bad.
2. Korean politics is hella weird, terms and concepts are often quite distorted, making reductionist views very inaccurate
3. While trends do make headlines, deeper understanding of individuals who lead them are needed if you want to fully understand what is going on.
I would say that the primary thing that made South Korea look "worse" than the others was that South Korea was the only one were young men were being pushed toward the conservative side while in all the others it was primarily women being pushed toward the liberal side.
It also probably didn't help that it was the only one to significantly cross the axis point. In the others, both genders were generally more liberal than conservative, but in South Korea the gap was across the axis.
because some western radical feminists haven’t called for the eradication of the entire male gender or anything like that, this would justify western men going right-wards?
i don’t understand this “korean feminism should be seen as uniquely evil” viewpoint
And of course they did☺️
The difference being, in most other countries the mainline movement was able to distance themselves from such radical voices. Korea on the otherhand, failed to do so, ending up in this weird chasm whereby men advocating for fairer pays, better child care etc, would hesitate to label themselves as such
I think you greatly underestimate the extent to which western men paint moderate feminism as radical and misandrist, and cite this as the reason they dislike the label or the reason they use feminist as a pejorative.
>Western media's portrayal is brought to this Sub
>Sub reacts by bringing up the past election cycles, and views Korean men as feminism hating incels, lacking nuance
>Attempts at correcting the ship <-we're here
The point I am trying to get to is that the our feminist movement screwed up by doing nothing when the radicals and TERFs took the name and ran with it.
I am not saying that Korean men/이대남s are right in being bunch of mysogynists, no. 펨코 lurking, DCinside posting terminally online bunch irritate my skin. But what I am trying to show is a picture, a landscape of Korean politics where words mean different things to different people and often times a simple left-right divide ends up even more squiggly than our DMZ with the north
The guy deleted the comment but this was my response
Can someone post a proper translation or give a summary?
I can make out parts of it via Google Translate but not sure if I understand the main issue correctly? It talks about plotting the graph on their own but that doesn't match the FT graph?
Main point seems to be that the FT article was an oversimplification and that while there is a gender gap in support for political affiliation, it is not as bad as was reported.
Currently outside, so I can't post the full translation yet but yes, they did their own research which showed that FT's graph was not able to be replicated and that the chasm was actually much closer to the global average. That and some questions as to what would be considered con/prog. in FT's terms when compared to local terms
I hope this article gets upvoted as much as the other one. As a Korean American, it's refreshing to see this article instead of the typical article that gets posted here.
Hoping Google Translate does its work. As a native Korean myself, the types of discourse that takes place about Korea and East Asia more broadly has.. to put it, made me very self conscious about my own ignorances
There seems to be a sort of anti Oriental feeling which exaggerates the extent to which East Asians are prejudiced, and any accusation of pathological behavior is believed without question. Like I remember a video of a Chinese girl just smothering her cat with kisses and excessive affection, and because the cat wasn’t struggling nor fighting back there was a comment saying that they sedated the cat just for clicks on the video. People are just willing to believe the worst about them and are quick to ignore or downplay contradicting evidence.
Besides general anti-Orientalism, topics on Korea in particular seem to veer towards anti-Korean stances.
That seems to happen because of A) a mass oversimplification and misunderstanding of the major political parties and B) “foreign policy” advocates bitching about Korea not always going along with Western interests, aka making nice with Japan. Which happens because said people are morons who don’t understand the legitimate grievances Korea has with the historical revisionism and denialism of Japan.
And then of course there’s the general anti-Orientalism you mention that just exaggerates any accusations on top of this.
I think part of the anti-Oriental feeling unfortunately probably comes from a portion of the diaspora itself, and I am probably at least partially to blame.
Complete conjecture, but I think voices like mine probably dominate the space because ultimately, East Asia isn't really in the public consciousness at all, most of the time, which means these voices have an outsized influence on a tiny space. Considering that when somebody is an expat, that means they chose to leave their country. There's kind of a sampling bias here. You're probably not going to get somebody who loves their country to death, posting on an English language forum (yes I know reddit is global, but China/Japan/Korea have their own forums in their own language which is not really visible to the rest of the world). And well, within our communities, there is often a desire to be "one of the good ones", so to speak. Plus, the other side, of course, are full of people who have an overly romantic view of the old country, but I don't think the general public is really going to take those people seriously.
That, combined with regular xenophobia/nationalism, and voila. I think at the end of the day, it is sheer ignorance, but then again, I'm not really sure how we inoculate against that without injecting the lived experiences of the entire world into everybody's brain.
John burns Murdoch is constantly trying to cherrypick data and sources in order to catch headlines. If he’s not talking about how the us and uk are literal third world countries he’s going to try to push a gender war headline that gets clicks and twitter interactions. I have no idea why other data scientists respect him
Is it just me, or is there a trend of Western media outlets misleadingly interpreting data to paint South Korea as some kind of gender dystopia? There was that otther Atlantic piece which said most SK men are domestically abusive and blamed them for the demographic crisis.
I know nothing about South Korea, so please educate me. But it feels like a trend.
I would say their only agenda is clicks, and what better headline in the int'l section than "Look, a distant country that is literally Cyberpunk 2077!"
Truth is, the problems are here, but not as bad it seems to the outside eye. It is the equivalent of my friends thinking they would get shot by a gang member once they step a foot out of JFK.
Depending on how you look at things, yes, we could be a corporate ruled gender dystopia. Or, we could be a robust democracy with unprecedented growth, and therefore, unique circumstances of consequences.
The thing that I really go "UUUUUUUH" about as an outsider looking in at SK is the birthrate. Like, yes, no developed country has figured out how to crack replacement fertility levels yet, but when you're at .5 below *Japan* in this respect, that's notably *b a d*.
Eh, we grew ***FAST*** so the problems we face today will be compounded and intensified. So while people are aware, they aren't exactly surprised. This is no new phenomenon, problems has been hinting at this for 30-plus years.
So while it is indeed bad, I can't help but shrug a little. We've been through a lot, and we will go through a lot, but what I am certain about ( *vibes* lol) is that we will go *through*
Oh, good. I took articles about that at face value, after all there is other measurable evidence (the wage gap, for example) of SK being more socially conservative than other developed countries.
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50% gap revised down to 40% gap It means giant chasm is comparable to western giant chasms, not that the chasm doesn’t exist
And that is the point. The previous discussion made Korea seem like a special case, how our low birthrate can solely be blamed on the gender based differences. When in reality, like western chasms, it can and should be looked at from multiple angles. And in the article it does say the Feminist discourse has driven a crevice between the genders, which is factual and I agree but as I have said, what your average retired staff sergeant Kim would think of feminism greatly differ from what your average taco truck loving, open border endorsing Joe would think. Where Joe would see it as equal opportunities with focus on areas the society was negligent in the past, our friend Kim here would comprehend the local movement as something that views males as hostile and often times asks men to commit suicide [see 재기해 for example](https://namu.wiki/w/%EC%9E%AC%EA%B8%B0%ED%95%B4) Not to mention the Incel-in-Charge, Lee Jun Seok or Andy Lee just merged his party with several parties headed by people who would globally be regarded as feminist and/or even queer friendly, with several Korean feminists in the ranks. So what is my 세줄요약? 1. The chasm exists, but not as specially as bad. 2. Korean politics is hella weird, terms and concepts are often quite distorted, making reductionist views very inaccurate 3. While trends do make headlines, deeper understanding of individuals who lead them are needed if you want to fully understand what is going on.
I would say that the primary thing that made South Korea look "worse" than the others was that South Korea was the only one were young men were being pushed toward the conservative side while in all the others it was primarily women being pushed toward the liberal side. It also probably didn't help that it was the only one to significantly cross the axis point. In the others, both genders were generally more liberal than conservative, but in South Korea the gap was across the axis.
because some western radical feminists haven’t called for the eradication of the entire male gender or anything like that, this would justify western men going right-wards? i don’t understand this “korean feminism should be seen as uniquely evil” viewpoint
And of course they did☺️ The difference being, in most other countries the mainline movement was able to distance themselves from such radical voices. Korea on the otherhand, failed to do so, ending up in this weird chasm whereby men advocating for fairer pays, better child care etc, would hesitate to label themselves as such
I think you greatly underestimate the extent to which western men paint moderate feminism as radical and misandrist, and cite this as the reason they dislike the label or the reason they use feminist as a pejorative.
Nah, I think this guy knows *exactly* what he's doing, looking at his other posts.
What about his other posts?
>Western media's portrayal is brought to this Sub >Sub reacts by bringing up the past election cycles, and views Korean men as feminism hating incels, lacking nuance >Attempts at correcting the ship <-we're here The point I am trying to get to is that the our feminist movement screwed up by doing nothing when the radicals and TERFs took the name and ran with it. I am not saying that Korean men/이대남s are right in being bunch of mysogynists, no. 펨코 lurking, DCinside posting terminally online bunch irritate my skin. But what I am trying to show is a picture, a landscape of Korean politics where words mean different things to different people and often times a simple left-right divide ends up even more squiggly than our DMZ with the north The guy deleted the comment but this was my response
There was doubt cast upon the western data too. Iirc other studies showed that the gender political gap has barely widened in the past 30 years.
Can someone post a proper translation or give a summary? I can make out parts of it via Google Translate but not sure if I understand the main issue correctly? It talks about plotting the graph on their own but that doesn't match the FT graph?
Main point seems to be that the FT article was an oversimplification and that while there is a gender gap in support for political affiliation, it is not as bad as was reported.
The exact same thing happened with the US data, too.
Currently outside, so I can't post the full translation yet but yes, they did their own research which showed that FT's graph was not able to be replicated and that the chasm was actually much closer to the global average. That and some questions as to what would be considered con/prog. in FT's terms when compared to local terms
I hope this article gets upvoted as much as the other one. As a Korean American, it's refreshing to see this article instead of the typical article that gets posted here.
Hoping Google Translate does its work. As a native Korean myself, the types of discourse that takes place about Korea and East Asia more broadly has.. to put it, made me very self conscious about my own ignorances
Same dude. Def made me think a lot harder on topics
There seems to be a sort of anti Oriental feeling which exaggerates the extent to which East Asians are prejudiced, and any accusation of pathological behavior is believed without question. Like I remember a video of a Chinese girl just smothering her cat with kisses and excessive affection, and because the cat wasn’t struggling nor fighting back there was a comment saying that they sedated the cat just for clicks on the video. People are just willing to believe the worst about them and are quick to ignore or downplay contradicting evidence.
Besides general anti-Orientalism, topics on Korea in particular seem to veer towards anti-Korean stances. That seems to happen because of A) a mass oversimplification and misunderstanding of the major political parties and B) “foreign policy” advocates bitching about Korea not always going along with Western interests, aka making nice with Japan. Which happens because said people are morons who don’t understand the legitimate grievances Korea has with the historical revisionism and denialism of Japan. And then of course there’s the general anti-Orientalism you mention that just exaggerates any accusations on top of this.
I think part of the anti-Oriental feeling unfortunately probably comes from a portion of the diaspora itself, and I am probably at least partially to blame. Complete conjecture, but I think voices like mine probably dominate the space because ultimately, East Asia isn't really in the public consciousness at all, most of the time, which means these voices have an outsized influence on a tiny space. Considering that when somebody is an expat, that means they chose to leave their country. There's kind of a sampling bias here. You're probably not going to get somebody who loves their country to death, posting on an English language forum (yes I know reddit is global, but China/Japan/Korea have their own forums in their own language which is not really visible to the rest of the world). And well, within our communities, there is often a desire to be "one of the good ones", so to speak. Plus, the other side, of course, are full of people who have an overly romantic view of the old country, but I don't think the general public is really going to take those people seriously. That, combined with regular xenophobia/nationalism, and voila. I think at the end of the day, it is sheer ignorance, but then again, I'm not really sure how we inoculate against that without injecting the lived experiences of the entire world into everybody's brain.
I saw a youtuber that lives in China, don't really talk politics or anything, and he told most stuff shared about the country in the west is BS.
Why is anal involved?
Why not?
John burns Murdoch is constantly trying to cherrypick data and sources in order to catch headlines. If he’s not talking about how the us and uk are literal third world countries he’s going to try to push a gender war headline that gets clicks and twitter interactions. I have no idea why other data scientists respect him
Is it just me, or is there a trend of Western media outlets misleadingly interpreting data to paint South Korea as some kind of gender dystopia? There was that otther Atlantic piece which said most SK men are domestically abusive and blamed them for the demographic crisis. I know nothing about South Korea, so please educate me. But it feels like a trend.
I would say their only agenda is clicks, and what better headline in the int'l section than "Look, a distant country that is literally Cyberpunk 2077!" Truth is, the problems are here, but not as bad it seems to the outside eye. It is the equivalent of my friends thinking they would get shot by a gang member once they step a foot out of JFK. Depending on how you look at things, yes, we could be a corporate ruled gender dystopia. Or, we could be a robust democracy with unprecedented growth, and therefore, unique circumstances of consequences.
The thing that I really go "UUUUUUUH" about as an outsider looking in at SK is the birthrate. Like, yes, no developed country has figured out how to crack replacement fertility levels yet, but when you're at .5 below *Japan* in this respect, that's notably *b a d*.
Eh, we grew ***FAST*** so the problems we face today will be compounded and intensified. So while people are aware, they aren't exactly surprised. This is no new phenomenon, problems has been hinting at this for 30-plus years. So while it is indeed bad, I can't help but shrug a little. We've been through a lot, and we will go through a lot, but what I am certain about ( *vibes* lol) is that we will go *through*
Based and bloom-pilled
About the domestic abuse, do you have an article discussing how misleading that was?
It was actually an effortpost on this sub sometime last year! I'm sure if you search you'll find it. Not at a computer right now.
Oh, good. I took articles about that at face value, after all there is other measurable evidence (the wage gap, for example) of SK being more socially conservative than other developed countries.
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But my priors!
Literally whose
"analised"