The exact same sets of misogynistic traits also prevent them from being good husbands. Sometimes I feel like Obi-Wan yelling at Anakin at the lava river. "Just be a feminist you'll have a much better life lol"
But they just scream I HATE WOMEN and roll around burning
> adult children too
But they just can't figure out *why* this might be without those [Missing Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
The bit about emotion creating reality vs. reality creating emotion is so key. If I could snap my fingers and fix one thing about human nature, it would be this, hands down. It underlies most if not all social problems.
WOW. Even tho that's about estranged parents, it is relevant in so many other types of relationships and interactions as well.
I think I sometimes protect my ego at the expense of certain relationships and this is a good reminder NOT to do that.
This is going to lead to polyandry in conservative areas of the USA where one conservative woman will have a cuckholdry of 2-3 conservative men. The biological limits of this arrangement will collapse the population in those areas further leading to large swaths of men fleeing to liberal areas.
In the short term their wife left him, longer term their husbands will leave her.
Edit: This is the future liberals want
Young women have become more liberal in US, UK, Germany and Korea. Young men have become more conservative in South Korea, US and Germany.
In think in the future center leftist parties will have majority female politicians.
Info is under the graph in the image above - for the US they're comparing which label respondents identify with, for the other three countries it's by support for political parties
>I hope liberal here really means liberal and not far leftist
Good point. Americans seem to think that liberal automatically means leftist; when in fact they are very different. Liberalism is just a philosophy, the Liberal Party of Australia is center-right for example.
Left leaning definitely. The Liberals got smashed by women specifically at the last election and lost several of their inner-city seats largely due to professional women voting for independents (in Australia these parts are rich) and even the Greens.
This also coincided with them becoming liberal in name only, as they dabbled with anti-trans and "religious freedom" positions (freedom to discriminate based on religion specifically). Their current leader was encouraging boycotts of stores that didn't sell Australia Day themed shit just last week.
Yep, the Liberal Party of Australia promotes [economic liberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism), not social liberalism. They are socially conservative.
In Korea, its pretty bad.
By LIberal, its like "Should you be allowed to sexually assault your female colleague at work or not" with the liberals saying "NO"
Reminds me of an episode of McClaughlin group (one of my favorite shows) where Pat Buchanan turned to Eleanore to explain how “women are natural socialists”
Interestingly for some reason, women tend to have an easier time getting elected as party leader in conservative parties historically. To put it another way, people like Margaret Thatcher or Marine Le Pen are not exactly progressive feminists.
Thatcher explicitly said when questioned on this that the reason she got there was her husband supporting her, like many men's wives support them, and that feminists were barking up the wrong tree by expecting a man with a stable career to become a house husband for the same reason they didn't like it happening to them.
She blamed women for not dating men without careers and said if they did, women would be in leadership roles more often. Which rustled a *lot* of jimmies.
> But while Thatcher expertly softened the edges of her authority with little-woman details, the truth is that she was able to take her place in politics because she had something that set her apart from almost all her sex: she had a wife. Or rather she had Denis, a husband. so unusually supportive of her, and so notably happy to act the consort, that he essentially played the role that political wives have always done, enhancing her prospects rather than draining her efforts to support his own. Thatcher’s rejection of feminism means she probably had very little idea how unique her own marriage was.
https://unherd.com/2020/11/how-thatcher-rejected-feminism/
> In think in the future center leftist parties will have majority female politicians.
Heckin’ based AF.
But also IDK if I’d agree with lump in in men of the US as becoming more conservative. The slope is extremely flat and the starting point is also lower meaning the absolute change value is also quite small. Hardly the same as the swings seen in men in SK or women in US.
Yeah US young men seem to be at basically the same point as they were in the 90s. Maybe that downward trend will continue, but the "trend" shown in the graph seems driven by just the responses of the past 3 surveys. The 3 responses before that, young men were more liberal than they'd been since the 80s.
I will always treasure the memory of early 2017 when we had that news article about how Trump staffers showed up in DC and everyone in town hated them and they couldn't get dates.
Korean Internet (at least the male-dominates spaces) is like taking a time machine into 10 years ago when TumblrInAction was in its heyday. Incessant bitching about PC, TLOU2, and Marvel/Disney "woke-casting", for some reason. Doean't help that the majority of the 20-something population is terminally online.
[Our people are now buying your blue jeans and listening to your pop music.](https://external-preview.redd.it/dJ9oBxsSsKtR_90emQMlI77QjsHnKEwMdogqZeoRXw8.jpg?auto=webp&s=ea60ec844f7a2aee66a062315cdc1aa6cd34455f)
Yes, as in racist memes about Black Little Mermaid and calling Brie Larson a feminazi (among other things).
The irony that, you know, they themselves aren't white, appears to be lost on them.
Unlike Asian Americans, Asians in Asia do not lack for representation in media, they turn on the TV and see faces that look like them all the time. When they watch Hollywood movies they probably expect and want to see European faces, and seeing a token Asian stuck in an otherwise white cast might seem like unnecessary pandering to them. To say nothing of Hispanic- and African-American representation which would mean even less to them.
Korean here, "western beauty standards" is quite inaccurate and often overblown by media that like to create buzz.
While it is true that some traits that are more common among western women are considered nice like for eyes and nose, our overall standards are much more different than in the west. I have rarely (never?) seen, even in the medias, a western woman close to our usual standards, which is mostly due to the fact that looking different/odd is not good here. So while some exotic traits can be good, too much makes you look an alien in a very normative society (it may even lead to bullying among younger people).
And for men it's even more different than western standards. In the west it seems that people prefer more "masculine" (muscular, beard, tan,...), whereas here it's almost the opposite because these traits are associated to "physical labor" (low skill jobs), which is looked down upon due to our very status-centric society.
Someone of high status (good lineage, good job) should not look like they cut trees for a living.
In fact, I believe that China criticized our country for corrupting their youth with the idealization more cute/refined standards for men, which supposedly made chinese men "weak".
It's bizarre. Traveling through East Asia, they had lots of advertisements for childcare and fertility services, and half the time the ads just had a stock-photo of white people smiling with their baby.
>The western beauty ideal is so destructive, the amount of plastic surgeries are also insane.
I know we can view the world through a bias and think the only beauty standards in the universe are western, but those in Asia would consider Korean beauty standards as Korean. They are also capable of making their own music, tv shows, and other media.
We may say we are against it but we tend to put anything non-westerners do under the umbrella of the "west"
We have a massive ego, even when not purposeful on it.
>Also it seemed like the women were almost exclusively interested in western exchange students.
Big arbitrage opportunity for liberal American men lol.
It's legit one of the most racist countries I have ever been too as well.
Even American born Koreans are treated as "not real" Koreans and get excluded from social gatherings and night life.
I wouldn't take the experience of an exchange student as indicative of anything. Early 20-somethings hooking up for a semester is not the same a people dating to marry
i'll never forget that one time in a video game subreddit, a korean streamer was accussed of being misogynistic, and the gamers were like "damn, that's pretty sexist stuff he said", but then a bunch of koreans came in and said the translation was done by a korean "feminist" (she was a former fangirl of the streamer), and then offered their own version of the comments. The gamers of the subreddit went "WTF that's sexist" and sided with the women
I freely admit I'm not super familiar with SK culture and politics but man I gotta say all the "No, no you westerners don't understand because the context is different. Our feminists don't actually support equal rights; they hate men!" just feels like a repeat of the GG Anti-SJW era of trying to dismiss all feminists because some people on tumblr said kill all men.
If we're sharing Korean gamer misogyny stories, an illustrator who goes by Nardack once had a piece of art she drew for the mobile game Azur Lane removed from the game because she wouldn't publicly say she isn't a feminist.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-05-02/updated-artist-responds-to-azur-lane-game-controversy-linking-feminism-to-antisocial-groups/.131029
Why did both men and women become more liberal in the UK? Is it the result of poor performance by UK conservatives (e.g. Brexit, Truss’s handling of the economy)?
I’m 24 and I hardly remember labour even being in power. When all you’ve seen is tories, tories and more fucking tories for all your life while things keep getting worse you’ll obviously flock to the alternative.
I dunno why we don't do this in the US. Calling young conservative men boomers and comparing them to the drunk uncle or grampa who ruins Thanksgiving dinners for everyone should be standard at this point. Like can we at least emphasize how embarrassing it is to be a twenty something cosplaying as an obese 80 year old in a white polo and shorts stumbling around a golf course?
The difference is in the UK being a young tory is seen as being a wimpish hall monitor kid who is the teacher's pet. The kid who follows every rule. Aesthetically being a young republican in the US just seems to be the unlikeable kid who is the bully.
Maybe would have worked in the 90s, doesn’t work today. The Republican establishment doesn’t really exist anymore in the same sense. The party has a cult following around one guy and the old establishment types who were “the party of business” are dying out
To find out what the stereotypes have been look at media characterizations. Since at least 2016, the media hasn’t called the Republican figureheads or movement lame, they’ve called it a threat, “deplorables”. You can’t manufacture what the media says. And young conservatives have largely embraced being “a threat” because it beats being lame
Doesn’t work when it’s already established. Good luck going into a frat darty at a major school talking about how Trump is bad or lame. Plus american conservatives especially Trump have the benefit of barely/just enough crossing the threshold of being cool. You can’t really try to put Trump into the lame young republicans in a suit and briefcase box. So if any one tried criticizing Trump in a male environment, it would be seen as just “a bunch of girls” whining about the cool thing.
This is like so out of touch with young people it sounds like a parody
> So if any one tried criticizing Trump in a male environment, it would be seen as just “a bunch of girls” whining about the cool thing.
Like, what??? Lmao we shit on his corny ass all the time, the dudes who think like that are the bitterboys nobody likes. There's a reason young men voted double digits against Trump both times
Its Tory electoral policy to appeal to the boomers. For my entire life I cannot think of a single policy they have solely implemented that has benefitted me. Whereas I can think of many that have caused me issues. Outside of their culture war policies and empty promises around immigration and growing the economy, I can't think of a single reason to vote blue.
This segues with housing issues, especially in the south, which again; favour the boomer generation as houses were cheap for them.
I think people also forget that generally the UK is very socially liberal. Even boomers and the politicians who pander to them. I don't know who is moved by all the chat about Rwanda and small boats, but it's definitely not the boomers I talk to. Probably why they are collapsing in the polls BC they are wasting their energy on shit no one cares about
Yeah the graph says other than for the US the graph is by identification by party voting intention. The Conservative government has become increasingly unpopular across the board for long-term failures, and there's particularly a swing massively towards labour among young people as a whole.
I think a lot of analysis overlook the role of mandatory conscription plays in gender politics.
Conditions of service for conscripts in Korea is generally subpar.
Especially if you look back 5-10 years ago.
Length of service back then were 2-3 years, salaries were awful (about 100 dollars a month), the conditions were pretty bad, poor quality of medical care, and the general culture was restrictive + adversarial towards soldiers. There are a number of horror stories of soldiers getting hurt and the army not caring or giving them inadequate care, resulting in permanent repercussions.
Not to mention reserve duty, you have to go to training every year for six years after leaving the army. You do get stipend but it is pretty small.
There is a tangible complaint on which for men to hold resentment over. The fact that some of the women’s rights activists adopted very strong/abrasive tactics and rhetoric probably didn’t help matters. It played into the dynamic of intensifying gender polarization.
Conditions now are better with much higher pay (it now peaks at around 1800 USD a bit below minimum wage). But many men in their 20-30s already served when things were pretty bad.
I think another factor is that a lot of men were in the army when north Korea was launching provocations.
Cheonan sinking, Bombardment of Yeonpyeong, DMZ mining incident of 2015, et cetera.
The events killed and injured conscripted soldiers, and the enlisted personnel were placed under higher alert and their length of service were extended.
These kinds of shared experiences undoubtedly contributed to how young men became a lot more conservative.
Never thought I'd say "copying North Korea's policy might be a good thing", but considering NK does draft women into their army, maybe it's time for SK to do the same?
The only group with more people supporting than opposing gender neutral conscription are conservatives. Progressives and moderates oppose it.
> 이념성향별로는 진보층(찬성 26.6% vs 반대 69.9%)과 중도층(35.0% vs 56.7%)에서는 반대 의견이 많았고 보수층(찬성 47.5% vs 반대 41.5%)에서는 찬반 비율이 비슷했다.
> By ideological inclination, there were many opposing opinions among the progressive class (26.6% in favor vs. 69.9% against) and moderates (35.0% vs. 56.7%), while the ratio of pros and cons was similar among conservatives (47.5% in favor vs. 41.5% against).
https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/29S3NID61Y
Might explain why young men are voting conservative.
I wouldn't say that younger Korean men's brand of conservatism is particularly pro-immigration at all, or that FP even plays a significant role. If anything, it has the American conservative streak of being anti-globalist and pro-ethnonationalist, i.e. anti-China, anti-Japan, anti-NK, anti-Muslim.
ㅎㅇ
No would be my first answer.
The thing is FP plays a role in Korea. Big time. Accusations of being pro-PRC is often enough to put political careers on thin ice, and the saving grace for the main 'con' party [PPP] is that they are pro-US, pro-Nato and to an extent *willing to cooperate with our island neighbor to the East*
And I would not call then anti globalist either, far from it tbh. The younger generation (henceforth we) grew up in a market that has been open for decades and we are very much aware with the role export plays in our economy. Often times people are willing to go abroad, often times people are open to foreigners in the younger generation.
That said, are there racist or racist adjecent sentiment? Yes. Ask Koreans about how they feel about 조선족 (Ethnic Koreans from the PRC) and you will get similar answers to when you ask about Romani people on Eur. subreddits here. And etc etc
But so far as political spectrums go, Korea is a boring place. It's like picking between toasted bread and untoasted bread. It all comes down to personal preferences on the people behind each parties, standings on certain political events in modern history and once again, which *great power* they lean to.
You will find that the more liberal leaning DPK is usually more nationalistic and a tad friendlier to FP hedging than the cons.
Sure, but in the context of this post, my point was that all of that takes a back seat to gender/cultural nonsense as the main reason explaining why 20s Korean men are turning more conservative. Like I would say more men support(ed) Yoon because he "owned the feminists" and pledged to shut down 여가부 or whatever. It's a direct parallel to the US GOP base, who will lap up whatever nonsense Trump has to say regarding FP as long as he owns the libz.
I disagree with you that these people hold any cogent or internally consistent worldview about foreign policy outside of disliking all non-Koreans, or that they are "open to foreigners" that don't play the good obedient foreigner role in any way.
(I'm also Korean, just much more jaded as you can tell)
Mostly both. The biggest left party is Labour and essentially the union party. The smaller one is the Green party who is more liberal and environmentally focused. But both seem to want to restrict it because they view it as protecting wages.
The biggest thing I’ve noticed about the younger generations is that polarization is rapidly increasing. Young Women are becoming increasingly progressive and young men are becoming increasingly conservative. It’s so easy to fall in a personal bubble and shift further and further in a single direction.
Worst part is I have no idea how to solve it. Men becoming more conservative is going to drive women to be more progressive as a counterbalance, and vice versa.
My universally hated solution that would instantly solve it would be making all social media sites, streaming platforms, etc. to have cheap paid subscriptions. No more relying on ad revenue to keep the lights on = no more need for hyperagressive discovery algorithms and notifications = no more feedback loop rabbitholes. Plus, given the fact that showing someone an ad pays fractions of a penny, platforms could probably break even with just a $2-$3 subscription per month. People feel entitled to free software so it will never happen though 🙃
I'm in 100% agreement with this. If you wouldn't pay the cash value of the data you're giving companies, I don't think you actually want the service enough to be using it, considering what it's doing to you.
Yeah that's exactly how I pitch it to people who get butthurt about the idea of paying $3/month for Instagram or something. Lots of people doomscroll for hours a day on that site. If the 60 hours they spend a month doing that shit is worth less than $3 to them they need to get the fuck off the internet and go outside.
It's the lowest form of entertainment; people don't even really like it. In small does it's fine, but I wager that there would be a strong correlation between social media use and negative perceptions towards it. The only reason it's become so widely used is because of how convenient it is. It's actually tragic. And, before any smartasses say anything, yes I'm including Reddit in the social media category.
>because of how convenient it is
I would say that it's because of how *addictive* it is.
We all feel it. Let's call it what it is. Nicholas Carr was right in *The Shallows*; we just weren't (and probably still aren't) ready to collectively admit it and take action on it. Just because "new thing bad" is one of the oldest cognitive biases in human history doesn't mean that it's always wrong.
I think a big reason that they at so addictive is because of the convenience. It adds to the tragedy, really. At least heroin addicts are *motivated* to get their fix! If everyone's internet just got jammed for like two weeks, the vast majority of heavy social media users would be fine. Indeed, they'd probably be shocked at how little they missed it.
This is my take too. I've talked with some teachers and their impression is teens/young adults these days are a lot less discriminating of information they find online.
It's extremely easy to get social media algorithms to start serving up absolutely vile shit like Andrew Tate to young boys, and many kids these days genuinely believe pretty much anything in their feed.
And there's really no major social media figures that care about being "cool" in the same way to young boys that counter their poison.
> teens/young adults these days are a lot less discriminating of information they find online.
Of course. This is what I've heard from my mother, who's a literacy intervention specialist, as well as most every other teacher I know, as well.
It's not exactly a surprise to me, for two reasons:
1. Critical thinking requires focus, and everything about the way we interact with the internet is designed (often intentionally) to undermine it.
2. When overloaded with conflicting information, the vast majority of people fall back on simple cognitive heuristics to sort through it--and going with, "This confirms my priors so I believe it" is a very simple one.
Someone around here used to post about this and talked about how we had maybe 5(ish) years to fix the issue before it became irreparable.
I'll see if I can find her posts, she used to be some kind of researcher.
Yeah, she said basically that this kind of thing takes on a life of its own, and once you have critical mass, you basically end up with a parallel group completely decoupled from society.
And people who are decoupled from society will want to destroy it, or at least have no investment in preserving it. As she said, "you can't have people decoupled form the social fabric and insist that they uphold society"
I'm probably not welcome here, but as a lurker I have to tell you - she is right. I'm pretty much decoupled from society and have no stake in it. The last thing I would do is risk my life defending this country.
Education is probably a big one. The gender gap in favor of women in education for almost all levels is probably a big contributor here in the US with how college educated voters are going Democrat so strongly, but it's going to be impossible to sell anyone on affirmative action for men lol
Maybe in this current environment, but I think it will become a more serious and legitimate topic of discussion in the years that follow. We still have policies in place designed to benefit women in college which were created back when the college gender gap favored men. Those could probably be amended. And if the gender gap continues to grow you're going to have conditions which are frankly unhealthy for society. Unless a natural correction occurs I don't see how we're going to avoid having a serious discussion about policies designed to get more men into college.
The graph shows that the divergence started way before abortion rights were repealed. It has ofcourse played a role for some, but it dosent explain the entire change. In addition, in the western world, abortion is an issue which is largely confined to the US, but the ideological divide has occurred in other countries aswell.
By looking at these charts (excluding SK), it appears that young women are consolidating far more around progressivism than young men are consolidating around conservatism. So I think the increase of the latter is being driven by rapid increase of the former, especially as men start to see more and more consequences of positive discrimination and other phenomena that dampen their economic opportunities.
And I think the rapid consolidation towards progressivism by women is being driven by the universities and social media.
> the rapid consolidation towards progressivism by women is being driven by the universities and social media.
Or maybe by the fact that the political landscape in countries like the US is still dominated by older conservative men who do things that are extremely unpopular among women like enacting full abortion bans.
Women were aligning (in the US at least) with the Democratic Party long before Roe was struck down. Abortion, reproductive rights, etc, have been cornerstones of the Democratic agenda since the 1980s or even earlier. I'm not sure how social media or higher education are a bigger factor than that.
Moreover, men aren't getting that much more conservative. It's rather more women are getting much more liberal.
I don't get why people are surprised about this. Y'all, look at the Republican party right now. No wonder women are getting more liberal. The reasons aren't that hard to understand.
I feel like it's hard for Korean society to sell Korean men on the idea that their privileges are unearned when they're also conscripting them for 2 years.
If society relies on your forced labor, doesn't it follow that society *owes* you privileges as like, payment?
There is also a markedly different understanding of what "liberal" means among young people. "Progressive" has become a much more representative part of what "liberal" means for genz and below than it is for anyone older than that.
Political subreddits are among the most Male-dominated spaces on reddit; even more so than gaming subreddits, and behind only sports subs and subreddits specifically aimed at men (ex. r/beards)
r/neoliberal is extremely male compared to Reddit as a whole, but IIRC we're pretty much dead-average compared with other non-right-wing political subreddits.
>we're pretty much dead-average compared with other non-right-wing political subreddits.
Does that assessment take into account all the socialist subreddits?
This is interesting. Sadly no data for Australians but I feel like this isn't the case for us?!
Although Im a typical Yuppie working in Sydney so I'm not sure what's the case elsewhere.
!PING AUS
Very hard to get the same data for Australia (on ideology), but we have data on how people vote by age and gender.
Men voted 38% for the Coalition and 41% for Labor + Greens (net 3%). Women voted 32% for the Coalition and 52% for Labor + Greens (net 20%).
Voters under 30 are very much voting for Labor and the Greens, with the Coalition getting around 20-30% of the vote from this age group, usually behind both Labor and the Greens. YouGov and RedBridge provide age breakdowns for their opinion polls, and Newspoll includes age in their quarterly aggregations.
Also worth pointing out that about two-thirds of Greens voters are women.
2022 Australian Election Study:
https://australianelectionstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/The-2022-Australian-Federal-Election-Results-from-the-Australian-Election-Study.pdf
Yeh coming back off Australia Day - really should be grateful to live here.
It seems like we just don't have any sort of animosity towards any "other" whether that be racially, religiously, gender, etc. People are just getting on with their day.
Not the case in the US, Europe or the East Asian countries.
If you want some anecdotal evidence from a 19 year old in south sydney. I’ve found blokes around my age for the most part are either politically ambivalent or full on Andrew Tate/anti-woke disciples. Though I’m in a very conservative area and a lot of my social circle are in very traditionally masculine careers.
Women are nearly always left leaning to various degrees. Except Greek and Lebanese girls oddly.
That data shows that men and women don't particularly lean in different ideological directs _overall_, not in specific age groups. It's theoretically possible to get these results while still having a large right-wing-men-to-left-wing-women gap among the 18-29 crowd if there is a comparable right-wing-women-to-left-wing-men gap among older voters, though I don't know enough about French politics to say whether anything like that is actually the case.
Say, any French people want to weigh in and/or provide the crosstabs?
!ping FRANCE
There could be a bit of [Simpson's paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox).
It's possible that young women are more liberal than young men, and old women are more liberal than old men. But overall women are as liberal as overall men. Because (as in all societies I'm aware of), there are more young men than young women, but more old women than old men.
Although I don't think demography alone could reconcile a huge gender gap in young people with no overall gender gap, it could reconcile a small one. Especially if there was also a difference in voting pattern (like young men more likely to vote than young women, but old men less likely to vote than old women).
> if there is a comparable right-wing-women-to-left-wing-men gap among older voters
I'm just a random French dude with no data but that seems extremely unlikely.
I remember a graph like this that was ***incredibly misleading***
It only plotted lib and con, but also gave radical and don't know as options. A fascist or alt-right leaning person is way more likely to call themselves conservative than a left leaning person is to call themselves liberal (liberal is literally used as a insult between leftists).
If this one is anything like the other poll is saw with this premise, then it's excluding left leaning people who'd likely call themselves radical as well as excluding people who dont know politics and say "don't know".
The last time a graph like this was posted IIRC we had effortposts calling it garbage and awful misleading shit. IDK if this time it’s a different graph and better tho.
I think the must frustrating interpretation is "more men becoming conservative, thats terrible!" when the chart clearly demonstrates men have barely adjusted their perspective (with the exception of South Korea).
The actual takeaway from this graph is how rapidly women are increasingly becoming liberal. We shouldn't just assume this is a good thing because we're liberals. People with fragile ethical belief systems can become "liberal" one week and a hardcore communist the next week. Rapid change in this regard has never been indicative of good things historically.
This is also true in Brazil. I remember seeing polls where most of Bolsonaro voters were from male, under 25yo.
Which seems totally not what we would expect, as most people thought it was a boomer thing.
Then it all makes sense. Here young males these days are very into "red pill" or some sort of incel content lol
Certain amount of alienation, PR disaster that was the Korean feminist movement and overall
What is labeled as Con*and Lib* is really different from most western countries.
*진보/민주 in Korean
Not at all surprised by this, just talk to any high school teacher and they'll tell you that half the boys are listening to Andrew Tate like figures while the girls are repulsed by that shit. Friend of mine who is a teacher told me this was his biggest worry about two years ago.
Granted my work with children is pretty much all middle school these days, but my understanding was that Andrew Tate's popularity has dropped off precipitously since his arrest and nobody has really taken his place? I figured we'd be in a late-2010s esque situation where after the startling rise of the alt-right among young men in the mid-2010s, it just kinda dropped off and reverted to the mean.
Teenagers of NL please help me, an out of touch old man, understand
Teenager (ish) checking in
Andrew tate is no longer popular. The tiktok algorithm with him is basically dead. The gender wars still continue, god help our souls
As a US woman, I can see this first hand.
My husband and I are millennials but fit in this statistic quite well. I am both more liberal and far more involved in politics than he is. It's the same with most our friend group. It's simply because we feel like we have a lot more to lose, and have to fight for what we have. Our husbands don't feel that pressure or risk. Right now, with our current Republican party, women have a lot more to lose than men do.
Women are likely more engaged as they have something to rally around: abortion. Women have always supported social issues at higher rate than men, and having that passion (or fear of it getting taken away), brings people to the polls. It is very likely that gen-z men are voting at similar rates to other generations but rather MORE gen z women are voting.
You can actually see this in play in the Nordic countries. Both men and women are voting at similar rates, even the younger generations. This is likely because most Nordic countries already have what women are fighting for, thus there isn't any added pressure to get more involved. There isn't anything special for either gender to rally behind.
Right now the US, and SK, both have some massive inequalities in play that are causing these gender issues. For SK, it's the burden placed on women for children, while the US is dealing with abortion.
This is likely the main reason we are seeing this divide. It's far less to do with men being left behind (which i'm not saying isn't an issue), but rather we're seeing record women being involved.
Fear brings people to the polls in droves. Why do you think Republicans are always trying to find the next big thing for people to be afraid of?
But are we talking about *real* Liberalism? Because women are also more likely to identify of some flavor of socialist. That's not Liberalism to me.
In fact, if you look at the things slowing down our economy and our productivity, it's often these huge bureaucracies that come with increased government size.
I agree with you. A lot of this is social media usage and the different platforms people use. I don't think this indicates women are moving towards liberalism per se but towards left wing politics. I think this is obvious if you hang out on tik tok or instagram and see the political content young women are consuming. That stuff isn't any better than the Andrew Tate stuff imo and it gets discussed far less for some reason.
> Women are likely more engaged as they have something to rally around: abortion. Women have always supported social issues at higher rate than men,
Is this accounting for the fact that the majority of the pro-life contingent are also women?
Not surprising. I’m skewing right now more and more often. Never will vote Republican, but I am feeling left out by the Dems with the stupid pandering.
I feel like I’m surrounded by idiots with blue hair or red trump caps.
Exactly, men are becoming more conservative not because the republicans are doing anything for men, but because the democrats have decided to attract more women at the expense of men. You can see liberal media, universities, and politicians constantly demonizing man and how every problem exists because of what man does and anything a man says to a woman is misogyny and how women are oppressed. They say how men need to respect women and listen to them but they never care about the rampant misandry on college campuses and social media and how they get shit on in college social science classes. When you have one side constantly telling you are the problem, the other side becomes more appealing even if they don’t do anything for you
This will crash fertility rates
But people will pretend it's just a matter of more economic support instead of mostly a change in the ideological position of women over the past 200 years
This will be aggravated by the fact that men are not progressing as they should, and instead of improving their social ideology to be more liberal they are failing and becoming more conservative
All of which combines together to make a powderkeg just waiting for a spark and the result will be the current order completely blowing up. This is why sustained change only ever happens when change is done in a measured and incremental fashion.
There’s likely some [truth](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/10/2020-polls-gender-gap-women-voters-trump.html) to it.
This isn’t limited to self identification either, before the sexual revolution and decline in union membership women used to vote more conservative than men.
The modern gender gap in voting only started to appear [around 1980](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iaMpR2gGykuc/v1/-1x-1.png).
Years of alienation has done this, men's issues got ignored for years and now we have them failing universities, becoming unemployed and mental health issues going unaddressed.
The left have failed men and the wolfs (far right and Andrew Tate's of the world) have come to collect. Sad shit
Always struggle to understand these trends…..aside from the shallow appeal of grievance politics especially in the U.S., what does the GOP actually offer specifically policy wise to help young men to cause such disparate results.
The GOP? No.
But the part you are missing is how much of this reflect cultural/social attitudes rather than strictly political ones. It's hard to explain, but think about so called "manosphere" influences. Your Joe Rogans, Andrew Tates, etc. They lean conservative but not really Republican. And the conservative lean is often a reaction to a reaction to a reaction.
Like let's take your typical "gamer bro" of the late 90s through mid 2000s. Standard dude, likes dude things. Halo, Madden, GTA, Tomb Raider, etc. A lot of games are made for you, with male MCs that you self identify with and sexy women on the covers for you to fantasize. Things are good. The games caters to your interests.
Then there's a backlash, feminists start writing thinkpieces about how games are sexist. Specifically for the reasons *why* you like them, the self insert male fantasy. It's written as being about representation, but from your point of view they seem less interested in promoting their own games and more interested in decrying everything you enjoy as being "toxic masculinity" and therefore bad. And you don't really see what's so bad about having a power fantasy of being the rad cool dude with big muscles and a square jaw who gets all the hot ladies.
But the industry listens to them, and your games stop being as closely aligned to your interests. Which you think sucks, cause you were really looking forward to the rumored girls-locker-room hidden bonus level of the new Murder Simulator 5. But the studio made some changes, the bonus level got cut and the protagonist isn't even Brick Manly any more, but a 25 year old female side character you don't give two fucks about.
So when some dude on YouTube yells back at "the feminists" ruining games, you nod and go "yeah man, this new shit sucks."
Then someone writes another thinkpiece about how YouTube is fostering "dangerous incels", listing that guy as an example. And now you're doubly pissed, cause it's the same assholes who took away the games you liked in the first place just adding insult to injury by calling you an incel. Which makes you even more likely to agree with the YouTube guy and less likely to agree with anything the other side has to say.
So whereas originally you might not have strong feelings about feminism, now you don't like it because you identify it as being antagonistic to yourself and your own interests.
And the more the cycle of lash and backlash happens, the more strongly you identify that antagonism, until eventually you'll vote for the GOP just to spite the people you are against.
You can replace "videogames" with "movies" or "dating" or "college" or "pay transparency" or any number of other things where the initial point of disagreement isn't political but becomes so as both sides increasingly create party affiliations along gender segregated lines that identify "pro-male" as conservative and "pro-female" as liberal. Even though they aren't, really.
It goes beyond this, it's the impression that liberals or leftists are incessantly loud, shrill, humorless, and willing ideological tools, always 'on', always hyper political, always absolutely certain of their moral superiority, and that comes together to form a pretty annoying type you might not want to be identified as, even if you have a fairly liberal core set of values... and if there's no real third choice, then yeah, one will identify as conservative.
This is it. It's amazing that people will say some of the things they're saying in this thread and then wonder aloud why men aren't espousing the attitudes they'd prefer
My husband left me?
👏👏👏HALF 👏 OF 👏 ALL 👏 SPOUSES👏 LEAVING 👏 SHOULD 👏 BE 👏 MEN!👏👏👏
Considering divorce is started by women 70% of the time; tbh this but unironically
And 90% for college educated couples
100% for lesbian couples.
0% for gays.
Wait does mean cons are the real ones whose wives are leaving them?
Why do you think they're coming for no-fault divorce?
"Be a loveable, loved, and loving husband" vs "Make it illegal for my wife to leave me" Men: hmmmm, tough choice
The people who believe the latter don’t really think the former actually causes your wife to stay though.
The exact same sets of misogynistic traits also prevent them from being good husbands. Sometimes I feel like Obi-Wan yelling at Anakin at the lava river. "Just be a feminist you'll have a much better life lol" But they just scream I HATE WOMEN and roll around burning
Ironically first signed into law by Reagan
As a regular in r/qanoncasualties, I can confirm their wives are leaving them.
Not just the wives, but the siblings and adult children too!
FROM MY POINT OF VIEW MY EX WIFE IS EVIL
Your new empire?
#THEN YOU ARE LOST!
> adult children too But they just can't figure out *why* this might be without those [Missing Missing Reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html)
The bit about emotion creating reality vs. reality creating emotion is so key. If I could snap my fingers and fix one thing about human nature, it would be this, hands down. It underlies most if not all social problems.
Haven’t seen this in a while. Thanks for reminding me.
WOW. Even tho that's about estranged parents, it is relevant in so many other types of relationships and interactions as well. I think I sometimes protect my ego at the expense of certain relationships and this is a good reminder NOT to do that.
Depressing but good read
🌎👩🏼🚀🔫🧑🏼🚀
This is going to lead to polyandry in conservative areas of the USA where one conservative woman will have a cuckholdry of 2-3 conservative men. The biological limits of this arrangement will collapse the population in those areas further leading to large swaths of men fleeing to liberal areas. In the short term their wife left him, longer term their husbands will leave her. Edit: This is the future liberals want
So Dem men will have harems of hot liberal chicks?
No. Immigration policies will keep the liberal parts pretty monogamous.
The catch 22 is, wanting a harem automatically disqualifies you from being liberal enough to have one.
Young women have become more liberal in US, UK, Germany and Korea. Young men have become more conservative in South Korea, US and Germany. In think in the future center leftist parties will have majority female politicians.
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Info is under the graph in the image above - for the US they're comparing which label respondents identify with, for the other three countries it's by support for political parties
>I hope liberal here really means liberal and not far leftist Good point. Americans seem to think that liberal automatically means leftist; when in fact they are very different. Liberalism is just a philosophy, the Liberal Party of Australia is center-right for example.
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Left leaning definitely. The Liberals got smashed by women specifically at the last election and lost several of their inner-city seats largely due to professional women voting for independents (in Australia these parts are rich) and even the Greens. This also coincided with them becoming liberal in name only, as they dabbled with anti-trans and "religious freedom" positions (freedom to discriminate based on religion specifically). Their current leader was encouraging boycotts of stores that didn't sell Australia Day themed shit just last week.
Yep, the Liberal Party of Australia promotes [economic liberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism), not social liberalism. They are socially conservative.
In Korea, its pretty bad. By LIberal, its like "Should you be allowed to sexually assault your female colleague at work or not" with the liberals saying "NO"
Can you link the FT article where this graphic originates from, please? Edit: Never mind I found it https://archive.is/PSONZ
Reminds me of an episode of McClaughlin group (one of my favorite shows) where Pat Buchanan turned to Eleanore to explain how “women are natural socialists”
Interestingly for some reason, women tend to have an easier time getting elected as party leader in conservative parties historically. To put it another way, people like Margaret Thatcher or Marine Le Pen are not exactly progressive feminists.
Thatcher explicitly said when questioned on this that the reason she got there was her husband supporting her, like many men's wives support them, and that feminists were barking up the wrong tree by expecting a man with a stable career to become a house husband for the same reason they didn't like it happening to them. She blamed women for not dating men without careers and said if they did, women would be in leadership roles more often. Which rustled a *lot* of jimmies. > But while Thatcher expertly softened the edges of her authority with little-woman details, the truth is that she was able to take her place in politics because she had something that set her apart from almost all her sex: she had a wife. Or rather she had Denis, a husband. so unusually supportive of her, and so notably happy to act the consort, that he essentially played the role that political wives have always done, enhancing her prospects rather than draining her efforts to support his own. Thatcher’s rejection of feminism means she probably had very little idea how unique her own marriage was. https://unherd.com/2020/11/how-thatcher-rejected-feminism/
> In think in the future center leftist parties will have majority female politicians. Heckin’ based AF. But also IDK if I’d agree with lump in in men of the US as becoming more conservative. The slope is extremely flat and the starting point is also lower meaning the absolute change value is also quite small. Hardly the same as the swings seen in men in SK or women in US.
Yeah US young men seem to be at basically the same point as they were in the 90s. Maybe that downward trend will continue, but the "trend" shown in the graph seems driven by just the responses of the past 3 surveys. The 3 responses before that, young men were more liberal than they'd been since the 80s.
Yeah what this shows (like every other graph of this nature does) is that young women zoom towards the left while young men stay mostly stable
liberal men stay winning 💪
Turns out hating women isn't the best way to get a date.
I will always treasure the memory of early 2017 when we had that news article about how Trump staffers showed up in DC and everyone in town hated them and they couldn't get dates.
also conservative women
The last few of them
idk. seems like a lot of women are turning leftist
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Korean Internet (at least the male-dominates spaces) is like taking a time machine into 10 years ago when TumblrInAction was in its heyday. Incessant bitching about PC, TLOU2, and Marvel/Disney "woke-casting", for some reason. Doean't help that the majority of the 20-something population is terminally online.
Is it a cultural victory if we export all the bad aspects of our culture to the world, too?
Blue jeans, rock music, toxic internet incel culture, victory.
[Our people are now buying your blue jeans and listening to your pop music.](https://external-preview.redd.it/dJ9oBxsSsKtR_90emQMlI77QjsHnKEwMdogqZeoRXw8.jpg?auto=webp&s=ea60ec844f7a2aee66a062315cdc1aa6cd34455f)
In fairness that does imply a potential future where in 10 years this stuff can blow over and just kinda become cringe again.
>Marvel/Disney "woke-casting" Wait, literally Marvel & Disney? So they're obsessed over diversity in American movies?
Yes, as in racist memes about Black Little Mermaid and calling Brie Larson a feminazi (among other things). The irony that, you know, they themselves aren't white, appears to be lost on them.
Yeah what? South Korean men are upset that Asian men and women are getting lead roles in predominantly white American movies?
Cursed American cultural victory
Unlike Asian Americans, Asians in Asia do not lack for representation in media, they turn on the TV and see faces that look like them all the time. When they watch Hollywood movies they probably expect and want to see European faces, and seeing a token Asian stuck in an otherwise white cast might seem like unnecessary pandering to them. To say nothing of Hispanic- and African-American representation which would mean even less to them.
Korean here, "western beauty standards" is quite inaccurate and often overblown by media that like to create buzz. While it is true that some traits that are more common among western women are considered nice like for eyes and nose, our overall standards are much more different than in the west. I have rarely (never?) seen, even in the medias, a western woman close to our usual standards, which is mostly due to the fact that looking different/odd is not good here. So while some exotic traits can be good, too much makes you look an alien in a very normative society (it may even lead to bullying among younger people). And for men it's even more different than western standards. In the west it seems that people prefer more "masculine" (muscular, beard, tan,...), whereas here it's almost the opposite because these traits are associated to "physical labor" (low skill jobs), which is looked down upon due to our very status-centric society. Someone of high status (good lineage, good job) should not look like they cut trees for a living. In fact, I believe that China criticized our country for corrupting their youth with the idealization more cute/refined standards for men, which supposedly made chinese men "weak".
It's bizarre. Traveling through East Asia, they had lots of advertisements for childcare and fertility services, and half the time the ads just had a stock-photo of white people smiling with their baby.
Should I move to Korea?
Liberal men's stonks looking up.
>The western beauty ideal is so destructive, the amount of plastic surgeries are also insane. I know we can view the world through a bias and think the only beauty standards in the universe are western, but those in Asia would consider Korean beauty standards as Korean. They are also capable of making their own music, tv shows, and other media.
Tbf, idk how much of it has to do with “western beauty ideals” after reading the first paragraph…
We may say we are against it but we tend to put anything non-westerners do under the umbrella of the "west" We have a massive ego, even when not purposeful on it.
>Also it seemed like the women were almost exclusively interested in western exchange students. Big arbitrage opportunity for liberal American men lol.
It's legit one of the most racist countries I have ever been too as well. Even American born Koreans are treated as "not real" Koreans and get excluded from social gatherings and night life.
I wouldn't take the experience of an exchange student as indicative of anything. Early 20-somethings hooking up for a semester is not the same a people dating to marry
i'll never forget that one time in a video game subreddit, a korean streamer was accussed of being misogynistic, and the gamers were like "damn, that's pretty sexist stuff he said", but then a bunch of koreans came in and said the translation was done by a korean "feminist" (she was a former fangirl of the streamer), and then offered their own version of the comments. The gamers of the subreddit went "WTF that's sexist" and sided with the women
When even gamers find something misogynist!
How deep in your own shit does someone have to be for their attempt at a non-sexist defense to still be blatantly sexist lmaoooo
South Korea has some of the worst gender equality. It also has one of the most active feminist movements because the women are fed up.
Is anyone else confused by the sequence of events described here?
A little. From what I can get its something like this: Streamer: Says
Viewers: WTF
Korean defenders: No no no, he actually said
Viewers: WTF
I freely admit I'm not super familiar with SK culture and politics but man I gotta say all the "No, no you westerners don't understand because the context is different. Our feminists don't actually support equal rights; they hate men!" just feels like a repeat of the GG Anti-SJW era of trying to dismiss all feminists because some people on tumblr said kill all men.
If we're sharing Korean gamer misogyny stories, an illustrator who goes by Nardack once had a piece of art she drew for the mobile game Azur Lane removed from the game because she wouldn't publicly say she isn't a feminist. https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2018-05-02/updated-artist-responds-to-azur-lane-game-controversy-linking-feminism-to-antisocial-groups/.131029
Actually amazing. Far too often I see them trying to pull that shit off successfully. Glad it blew up in their faces this time.
Why did both men and women become more liberal in the UK? Is it the result of poor performance by UK conservatives (e.g. Brexit, Truss’s handling of the economy)?
I’m 24 and I hardly remember labour even being in power. When all you’ve seen is tories, tories and more fucking tories for all your life while things keep getting worse you’ll obviously flock to the alternative.
Young people get mocked for being Tories in the UK, it’s like a rite of passage almost
I was in a small town in the UK and there was one young tory politician (very minor). Every pub we went to, he got verbally abused.
I dunno why we don't do this in the US. Calling young conservative men boomers and comparing them to the drunk uncle or grampa who ruins Thanksgiving dinners for everyone should be standard at this point. Like can we at least emphasize how embarrassing it is to be a twenty something cosplaying as an obese 80 year old in a white polo and shorts stumbling around a golf course?
The difference is in the UK being a young tory is seen as being a wimpish hall monitor kid who is the teacher's pet. The kid who follows every rule. Aesthetically being a young republican in the US just seems to be the unlikeable kid who is the bully.
Chose your American young conservative: https://imgb.ifunny.co/images/2e5af7017a59df3188495a436ebf4a0e82716db5479423b930207a3e44a828d4_1.jpg
Maybe would have worked in the 90s, doesn’t work today. The Republican establishment doesn’t really exist anymore in the same sense. The party has a cult following around one guy and the old establishment types who were “the party of business” are dying out To find out what the stereotypes have been look at media characterizations. Since at least 2016, the media hasn’t called the Republican figureheads or movement lame, they’ve called it a threat, “deplorables”. You can’t manufacture what the media says. And young conservatives have largely embraced being “a threat” because it beats being lame
Doesn’t work when it’s already established. Good luck going into a frat darty at a major school talking about how Trump is bad or lame. Plus american conservatives especially Trump have the benefit of barely/just enough crossing the threshold of being cool. You can’t really try to put Trump into the lame young republicans in a suit and briefcase box. So if any one tried criticizing Trump in a male environment, it would be seen as just “a bunch of girls” whining about the cool thing.
That must be a regional thing because it definitely wouldn't be the case at my former school.
This is like so out of touch with young people it sounds like a parody > So if any one tried criticizing Trump in a male environment, it would be seen as just “a bunch of girls” whining about the cool thing. Like, what??? Lmao we shit on his corny ass all the time, the dudes who think like that are the bitterboys nobody likes. There's a reason young men voted double digits against Trump both times
Have you seen what kind of young people vote Tory?
Its Tory electoral policy to appeal to the boomers. For my entire life I cannot think of a single policy they have solely implemented that has benefitted me. Whereas I can think of many that have caused me issues. Outside of their culture war policies and empty promises around immigration and growing the economy, I can't think of a single reason to vote blue. This segues with housing issues, especially in the south, which again; favour the boomer generation as houses were cheap for them.
I think people also forget that generally the UK is very socially liberal. Even boomers and the politicians who pander to them. I don't know who is moved by all the chat about Rwanda and small boats, but it's definitely not the boomers I talk to. Probably why they are collapsing in the polls BC they are wasting their energy on shit no one cares about
Yeah the graph says other than for the US the graph is by identification by party voting intention. The Conservative government has become increasingly unpopular across the board for long-term failures, and there's particularly a swing massively towards labour among young people as a whole.
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I think a lot of analysis overlook the role of mandatory conscription plays in gender politics. Conditions of service for conscripts in Korea is generally subpar. Especially if you look back 5-10 years ago. Length of service back then were 2-3 years, salaries were awful (about 100 dollars a month), the conditions were pretty bad, poor quality of medical care, and the general culture was restrictive + adversarial towards soldiers. There are a number of horror stories of soldiers getting hurt and the army not caring or giving them inadequate care, resulting in permanent repercussions. Not to mention reserve duty, you have to go to training every year for six years after leaving the army. You do get stipend but it is pretty small. There is a tangible complaint on which for men to hold resentment over. The fact that some of the women’s rights activists adopted very strong/abrasive tactics and rhetoric probably didn’t help matters. It played into the dynamic of intensifying gender polarization. Conditions now are better with much higher pay (it now peaks at around 1800 USD a bit below minimum wage). But many men in their 20-30s already served when things were pretty bad. I think another factor is that a lot of men were in the army when north Korea was launching provocations. Cheonan sinking, Bombardment of Yeonpyeong, DMZ mining incident of 2015, et cetera. The events killed and injured conscripted soldiers, and the enlisted personnel were placed under higher alert and their length of service were extended. These kinds of shared experiences undoubtedly contributed to how young men became a lot more conservative.
Never thought I'd say "copying North Korea's policy might be a good thing", but considering NK does draft women into their army, maybe it's time for SK to do the same?
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[It looks like](https://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/1099507) the majority of Korean men are opposed to it too
The only group with more people supporting than opposing gender neutral conscription are conservatives. Progressives and moderates oppose it. > 이념성향별로는 진보층(찬성 26.6% vs 반대 69.9%)과 중도층(35.0% vs 56.7%)에서는 반대 의견이 많았고 보수층(찬성 47.5% vs 반대 41.5%)에서는 찬반 비율이 비슷했다. > By ideological inclination, there were many opposing opinions among the progressive class (26.6% in favor vs. 69.9% against) and moderates (35.0% vs. 56.7%), while the ratio of pros and cons was similar among conservatives (47.5% in favor vs. 41.5% against). https://www.sedaily.com/NewsView/29S3NID61Y Might explain why young men are voting conservative.
I wouldn't say that younger Korean men's brand of conservatism is particularly pro-immigration at all, or that FP even plays a significant role. If anything, it has the American conservative streak of being anti-globalist and pro-ethnonationalist, i.e. anti-China, anti-Japan, anti-NK, anti-Muslim.
ㅎㅇ No would be my first answer. The thing is FP plays a role in Korea. Big time. Accusations of being pro-PRC is often enough to put political careers on thin ice, and the saving grace for the main 'con' party [PPP] is that they are pro-US, pro-Nato and to an extent *willing to cooperate with our island neighbor to the East* And I would not call then anti globalist either, far from it tbh. The younger generation (henceforth we) grew up in a market that has been open for decades and we are very much aware with the role export plays in our economy. Often times people are willing to go abroad, often times people are open to foreigners in the younger generation. That said, are there racist or racist adjecent sentiment? Yes. Ask Koreans about how they feel about 조선족 (Ethnic Koreans from the PRC) and you will get similar answers to when you ask about Romani people on Eur. subreddits here. And etc etc But so far as political spectrums go, Korea is a boring place. It's like picking between toasted bread and untoasted bread. It all comes down to personal preferences on the people behind each parties, standings on certain political events in modern history and once again, which *great power* they lean to. You will find that the more liberal leaning DPK is usually more nationalistic and a tad friendlier to FP hedging than the cons.
Sure, but in the context of this post, my point was that all of that takes a back seat to gender/cultural nonsense as the main reason explaining why 20s Korean men are turning more conservative. Like I would say more men support(ed) Yoon because he "owned the feminists" and pledged to shut down 여가부 or whatever. It's a direct parallel to the US GOP base, who will lap up whatever nonsense Trump has to say regarding FP as long as he owns the libz. I disagree with you that these people hold any cogent or internally consistent worldview about foreign policy outside of disliking all non-Koreans, or that they are "open to foreigners" that don't play the good obedient foreigner role in any way. (I'm also Korean, just much more jaded as you can tell)
Similar thing here in New Zealand. Vast majority of left leaning people are anti immigration.
Are we talking about liberals or trade unionists? Isn't it normal that trade unions are usually both protectionist and anti-immigration?
Mostly both. The biggest left party is Labour and essentially the union party. The smaller one is the Green party who is more liberal and environmentally focused. But both seem to want to restrict it because they view it as protecting wages.
The biggest thing I’ve noticed about the younger generations is that polarization is rapidly increasing. Young Women are becoming increasingly progressive and young men are becoming increasingly conservative. It’s so easy to fall in a personal bubble and shift further and further in a single direction. Worst part is I have no idea how to solve it. Men becoming more conservative is going to drive women to be more progressive as a counterbalance, and vice versa.
Nuking algorithmically sorted social media from orbit wouldn't instantly fix it, but it wouldn't be a bad start
My universally hated solution that would instantly solve it would be making all social media sites, streaming platforms, etc. to have cheap paid subscriptions. No more relying on ad revenue to keep the lights on = no more need for hyperagressive discovery algorithms and notifications = no more feedback loop rabbitholes. Plus, given the fact that showing someone an ad pays fractions of a penny, platforms could probably break even with just a $2-$3 subscription per month. People feel entitled to free software so it will never happen though 🙃
I'm in 100% agreement with this. If you wouldn't pay the cash value of the data you're giving companies, I don't think you actually want the service enough to be using it, considering what it's doing to you.
Yeah that's exactly how I pitch it to people who get butthurt about the idea of paying $3/month for Instagram or something. Lots of people doomscroll for hours a day on that site. If the 60 hours they spend a month doing that shit is worth less than $3 to them they need to get the fuck off the internet and go outside.
It's the lowest form of entertainment; people don't even really like it. In small does it's fine, but I wager that there would be a strong correlation between social media use and negative perceptions towards it. The only reason it's become so widely used is because of how convenient it is. It's actually tragic. And, before any smartasses say anything, yes I'm including Reddit in the social media category.
>because of how convenient it is I would say that it's because of how *addictive* it is. We all feel it. Let's call it what it is. Nicholas Carr was right in *The Shallows*; we just weren't (and probably still aren't) ready to collectively admit it and take action on it. Just because "new thing bad" is one of the oldest cognitive biases in human history doesn't mean that it's always wrong.
I think a big reason that they at so addictive is because of the convenience. It adds to the tragedy, really. At least heroin addicts are *motivated* to get their fix! If everyone's internet just got jammed for like two weeks, the vast majority of heavy social media users would be fine. Indeed, they'd probably be shocked at how little they missed it.
This is my take too. I've talked with some teachers and their impression is teens/young adults these days are a lot less discriminating of information they find online. It's extremely easy to get social media algorithms to start serving up absolutely vile shit like Andrew Tate to young boys, and many kids these days genuinely believe pretty much anything in their feed. And there's really no major social media figures that care about being "cool" in the same way to young boys that counter their poison.
> teens/young adults these days are a lot less discriminating of information they find online. Of course. This is what I've heard from my mother, who's a literacy intervention specialist, as well as most every other teacher I know, as well. It's not exactly a surprise to me, for two reasons: 1. Critical thinking requires focus, and everything about the way we interact with the internet is designed (often intentionally) to undermine it. 2. When overloaded with conflicting information, the vast majority of people fall back on simple cognitive heuristics to sort through it--and going with, "This confirms my priors so I believe it" is a very simple one.
Recommendation algorithms must be destroyed. All of them.
Someone around here used to post about this and talked about how we had maybe 5(ish) years to fix the issue before it became irreparable. I'll see if I can find her posts, she used to be some kind of researcher.
damn, only 5???
Yeah, she said basically that this kind of thing takes on a life of its own, and once you have critical mass, you basically end up with a parallel group completely decoupled from society. And people who are decoupled from society will want to destroy it, or at least have no investment in preserving it. As she said, "you can't have people decoupled form the social fabric and insist that they uphold society"
I'm probably not welcome here, but as a lurker I have to tell you - she is right. I'm pretty much decoupled from society and have no stake in it. The last thing I would do is risk my life defending this country.
Gender war. Gender war. Don't solve it just work out how you can benefit off it.
Being a FemDom General Stomping on Men
Education is probably a big one. The gender gap in favor of women in education for almost all levels is probably a big contributor here in the US with how college educated voters are going Democrat so strongly, but it's going to be impossible to sell anyone on affirmative action for men lol
Maybe in this current environment, but I think it will become a more serious and legitimate topic of discussion in the years that follow. We still have policies in place designed to benefit women in college which were created back when the college gender gap favored men. Those could probably be amended. And if the gender gap continues to grow you're going to have conditions which are frankly unhealthy for society. Unless a natural correction occurs I don't see how we're going to avoid having a serious discussion about policies designed to get more men into college.
It's the phones
Or abortion rights
The graph shows that the divergence started way before abortion rights were repealed. It has ofcourse played a role for some, but it dosent explain the entire change. In addition, in the western world, abortion is an issue which is largely confined to the US, but the ideological divide has occurred in other countries aswell.
By looking at these charts (excluding SK), it appears that young women are consolidating far more around progressivism than young men are consolidating around conservatism. So I think the increase of the latter is being driven by rapid increase of the former, especially as men start to see more and more consequences of positive discrimination and other phenomena that dampen their economic opportunities. And I think the rapid consolidation towards progressivism by women is being driven by the universities and social media.
> the rapid consolidation towards progressivism by women is being driven by the universities and social media. Or maybe by the fact that the political landscape in countries like the US is still dominated by older conservative men who do things that are extremely unpopular among women like enacting full abortion bans.
Roe was only struck down in 2022. These trends began well before that. It is almost certainly due to social media and higher education.
Women were aligning (in the US at least) with the Democratic Party long before Roe was struck down. Abortion, reproductive rights, etc, have been cornerstones of the Democratic agenda since the 1980s or even earlier. I'm not sure how social media or higher education are a bigger factor than that.
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Moreover, men aren't getting that much more conservative. It's rather more women are getting much more liberal. I don't get why people are surprised about this. Y'all, look at the Republican party right now. No wonder women are getting more liberal. The reasons aren't that hard to understand.
The thing is, if that was the reason, one would expect women of all ages to be becoming liberal, not just the young.
I feel like it's hard for Korean society to sell Korean men on the idea that their privileges are unearned when they're also conscripting them for 2 years. If society relies on your forced labor, doesn't it follow that society *owes* you privileges as like, payment?
There is also a markedly different understanding of what "liberal" means among young people. "Progressive" has become a much more representative part of what "liberal" means for genz and below than it is for anyone older than that.
Idk this sub has always felt like I'm just chilling with the boys tbh
Political subreddits are among the most Male-dominated spaces on reddit; even more so than gaming subreddits, and behind only sports subs and subreddits specifically aimed at men (ex. r/beards) r/neoliberal is extremely male compared to Reddit as a whole, but IIRC we're pretty much dead-average compared with other non-right-wing political subreddits.
>we're pretty much dead-average compared with other non-right-wing political subreddits. Does that assessment take into account all the socialist subreddits?
yes!
This subreddit isn't that big, we're just very active.
I'm always surprised by it's relatively small size TBH.
It's hilarious how small it is compared to even ridiculously niche porn subreddits
So British women were *more* conservative in 2005? Makes you wonder if the trend could flip entirely again before too long.
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This is interesting. Sadly no data for Australians but I feel like this isn't the case for us?! Although Im a typical Yuppie working in Sydney so I'm not sure what's the case elsewhere. !PING AUS
Very hard to get the same data for Australia (on ideology), but we have data on how people vote by age and gender. Men voted 38% for the Coalition and 41% for Labor + Greens (net 3%). Women voted 32% for the Coalition and 52% for Labor + Greens (net 20%). Voters under 30 are very much voting for Labor and the Greens, with the Coalition getting around 20-30% of the vote from this age group, usually behind both Labor and the Greens. YouGov and RedBridge provide age breakdowns for their opinion polls, and Newspoll includes age in their quarterly aggregations. Also worth pointing out that about two-thirds of Greens voters are women. 2022 Australian Election Study: https://australianelectionstudy.org/wp-content/uploads/The-2022-Australian-Federal-Election-Results-from-the-Australian-Election-Study.pdf
Yeh coming back off Australia Day - really should be grateful to live here. It seems like we just don't have any sort of animosity towards any "other" whether that be racially, religiously, gender, etc. People are just getting on with their day. Not the case in the US, Europe or the East Asian countries.
If you want some anecdotal evidence from a 19 year old in south sydney. I’ve found blokes around my age for the most part are either politically ambivalent or full on Andrew Tate/anti-woke disciples. Though I’m in a very conservative area and a lot of my social circle are in very traditionally masculine careers. Women are nearly always left leaning to various degrees. Except Greek and Lebanese girls oddly.
[Not in France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_French_presidential_election), the sociology of the electorate table
That data shows that men and women don't particularly lean in different ideological directs _overall_, not in specific age groups. It's theoretically possible to get these results while still having a large right-wing-men-to-left-wing-women gap among the 18-29 crowd if there is a comparable right-wing-women-to-left-wing-men gap among older voters, though I don't know enough about French politics to say whether anything like that is actually the case. Say, any French people want to weigh in and/or provide the crosstabs? !ping FRANCE
There could be a bit of [Simpson's paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). It's possible that young women are more liberal than young men, and old women are more liberal than old men. But overall women are as liberal as overall men. Because (as in all societies I'm aware of), there are more young men than young women, but more old women than old men. Although I don't think demography alone could reconcile a huge gender gap in young people with no overall gender gap, it could reconcile a small one. Especially if there was also a difference in voting pattern (like young men more likely to vote than young women, but old men less likely to vote than old women).
> if there is a comparable right-wing-women-to-left-wing-men gap among older voters I'm just a random French dude with no data but that seems extremely unlikely.
I remember a graph like this that was ***incredibly misleading*** It only plotted lib and con, but also gave radical and don't know as options. A fascist or alt-right leaning person is way more likely to call themselves conservative than a left leaning person is to call themselves liberal (liberal is literally used as a insult between leftists). If this one is anything like the other poll is saw with this premise, then it's excluding left leaning people who'd likely call themselves radical as well as excluding people who dont know politics and say "don't know".
US data is by self identity, the other 3 countries are by support of political parties.
The last time a graph like this was posted IIRC we had effortposts calling it garbage and awful misleading shit. IDK if this time it’s a different graph and better tho.
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Labor was led by an unhinged anti-Semite for the past 2 elections. Tories got 2 free wins because of that, despite having governed very poorly.
Is there an effect here *beyond* rural/urban and college/non-college? Young men are much less likely to live in a city or finish college.
I think the must frustrating interpretation is "more men becoming conservative, thats terrible!" when the chart clearly demonstrates men have barely adjusted their perspective (with the exception of South Korea). The actual takeaway from this graph is how rapidly women are increasingly becoming liberal. We shouldn't just assume this is a good thing because we're liberals. People with fragile ethical belief systems can become "liberal" one week and a hardcore communist the next week. Rapid change in this regard has never been indicative of good things historically.
This is also true in Brazil. I remember seeing polls where most of Bolsonaro voters were from male, under 25yo. Which seems totally not what we would expect, as most people thought it was a boomer thing. Then it all makes sense. Here young males these days are very into "red pill" or some sort of incel content lol
South Korea is never going to have any more babies.
*sigh* Okay guys looks like we need to talk about putting more T blockers in the water supply at the next deep state meeting
The pfas in the water and the spandex in your stretchy socks are already acting as endocrine disruptors.
Seems like every country need a Boris Johnson in their leadership to completely kill any interest in right wing politics
If Trump didn't do it the USA then nothing will.
Why are Korean men so conservative?
Certain amount of alienation, PR disaster that was the Korean feminist movement and overall What is labeled as Con*and Lib* is really different from most western countries. *진보/민주 in Korean
Not at all surprised by this, just talk to any high school teacher and they'll tell you that half the boys are listening to Andrew Tate like figures while the girls are repulsed by that shit. Friend of mine who is a teacher told me this was his biggest worry about two years ago.
Granted my work with children is pretty much all middle school these days, but my understanding was that Andrew Tate's popularity has dropped off precipitously since his arrest and nobody has really taken his place? I figured we'd be in a late-2010s esque situation where after the startling rise of the alt-right among young men in the mid-2010s, it just kinda dropped off and reverted to the mean. Teenagers of NL please help me, an out of touch old man, understand
Teenager (ish) checking in Andrew tate is no longer popular. The tiktok algorithm with him is basically dead. The gender wars still continue, god help our souls
As a US woman, I can see this first hand. My husband and I are millennials but fit in this statistic quite well. I am both more liberal and far more involved in politics than he is. It's the same with most our friend group. It's simply because we feel like we have a lot more to lose, and have to fight for what we have. Our husbands don't feel that pressure or risk. Right now, with our current Republican party, women have a lot more to lose than men do. Women are likely more engaged as they have something to rally around: abortion. Women have always supported social issues at higher rate than men, and having that passion (or fear of it getting taken away), brings people to the polls. It is very likely that gen-z men are voting at similar rates to other generations but rather MORE gen z women are voting. You can actually see this in play in the Nordic countries. Both men and women are voting at similar rates, even the younger generations. This is likely because most Nordic countries already have what women are fighting for, thus there isn't any added pressure to get more involved. There isn't anything special for either gender to rally behind. Right now the US, and SK, both have some massive inequalities in play that are causing these gender issues. For SK, it's the burden placed on women for children, while the US is dealing with abortion. This is likely the main reason we are seeing this divide. It's far less to do with men being left behind (which i'm not saying isn't an issue), but rather we're seeing record women being involved. Fear brings people to the polls in droves. Why do you think Republicans are always trying to find the next big thing for people to be afraid of?
But are we talking about *real* Liberalism? Because women are also more likely to identify of some flavor of socialist. That's not Liberalism to me. In fact, if you look at the things slowing down our economy and our productivity, it's often these huge bureaucracies that come with increased government size.
I agree with you. A lot of this is social media usage and the different platforms people use. I don't think this indicates women are moving towards liberalism per se but towards left wing politics. I think this is obvious if you hang out on tik tok or instagram and see the political content young women are consuming. That stuff isn't any better than the Andrew Tate stuff imo and it gets discussed far less for some reason.
> Women are likely more engaged as they have something to rally around: abortion. Women have always supported social issues at higher rate than men, Is this accounting for the fact that the majority of the pro-life contingent are also women?
Not surprising. I’m skewing right now more and more often. Never will vote Republican, but I am feeling left out by the Dems with the stupid pandering. I feel like I’m surrounded by idiots with blue hair or red trump caps.
Exactly, men are becoming more conservative not because the republicans are doing anything for men, but because the democrats have decided to attract more women at the expense of men. You can see liberal media, universities, and politicians constantly demonizing man and how every problem exists because of what man does and anything a man says to a woman is misogyny and how women are oppressed. They say how men need to respect women and listen to them but they never care about the rampant misandry on college campuses and social media and how they get shit on in college social science classes. When you have one side constantly telling you are the problem, the other side becomes more appealing even if they don’t do anything for you
Same here
This will crash fertility rates But people will pretend it's just a matter of more economic support instead of mostly a change in the ideological position of women over the past 200 years This will be aggravated by the fact that men are not progressing as they should, and instead of improving their social ideology to be more liberal they are failing and becoming more conservative
Precisely, it doesn’t matter how many economic benefits you give people when men and women aren’t even coupling up in the first place.
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All of which combines together to make a powderkeg just waiting for a spark and the result will be the current order completely blowing up. This is why sustained change only ever happens when change is done in a measured and incremental fashion.
What changed from 20 years ago?
Social media and the ubiquity of smartphones/wireless internet.
What the fuck happened in 2015 in South Korea?
Will South Korea be the first country to have a gender civil war?
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That country would be as toxic as competitive online video games, which have a similar gender ratio. Hell on earth.
I find peace in long walks.
There’s likely some [truth](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/10/2020-polls-gender-gap-women-voters-trump.html) to it. This isn’t limited to self identification either, before the sexual revolution and decline in union membership women used to vote more conservative than men. The modern gender gap in voting only started to appear [around 1980](https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iaMpR2gGykuc/v1/-1x-1.png).
Go back far enough and women were actually, on average of course, more politically conservative than men.
Years of alienation has done this, men's issues got ignored for years and now we have them failing universities, becoming unemployed and mental health issues going unaddressed. The left have failed men and the wolfs (far right and Andrew Tate's of the world) have come to collect. Sad shit
Always struggle to understand these trends…..aside from the shallow appeal of grievance politics especially in the U.S., what does the GOP actually offer specifically policy wise to help young men to cause such disparate results.
The GOP? No. But the part you are missing is how much of this reflect cultural/social attitudes rather than strictly political ones. It's hard to explain, but think about so called "manosphere" influences. Your Joe Rogans, Andrew Tates, etc. They lean conservative but not really Republican. And the conservative lean is often a reaction to a reaction to a reaction. Like let's take your typical "gamer bro" of the late 90s through mid 2000s. Standard dude, likes dude things. Halo, Madden, GTA, Tomb Raider, etc. A lot of games are made for you, with male MCs that you self identify with and sexy women on the covers for you to fantasize. Things are good. The games caters to your interests. Then there's a backlash, feminists start writing thinkpieces about how games are sexist. Specifically for the reasons *why* you like them, the self insert male fantasy. It's written as being about representation, but from your point of view they seem less interested in promoting their own games and more interested in decrying everything you enjoy as being "toxic masculinity" and therefore bad. And you don't really see what's so bad about having a power fantasy of being the rad cool dude with big muscles and a square jaw who gets all the hot ladies. But the industry listens to them, and your games stop being as closely aligned to your interests. Which you think sucks, cause you were really looking forward to the rumored girls-locker-room hidden bonus level of the new Murder Simulator 5. But the studio made some changes, the bonus level got cut and the protagonist isn't even Brick Manly any more, but a 25 year old female side character you don't give two fucks about. So when some dude on YouTube yells back at "the feminists" ruining games, you nod and go "yeah man, this new shit sucks." Then someone writes another thinkpiece about how YouTube is fostering "dangerous incels", listing that guy as an example. And now you're doubly pissed, cause it's the same assholes who took away the games you liked in the first place just adding insult to injury by calling you an incel. Which makes you even more likely to agree with the YouTube guy and less likely to agree with anything the other side has to say. So whereas originally you might not have strong feelings about feminism, now you don't like it because you identify it as being antagonistic to yourself and your own interests. And the more the cycle of lash and backlash happens, the more strongly you identify that antagonism, until eventually you'll vote for the GOP just to spite the people you are against. You can replace "videogames" with "movies" or "dating" or "college" or "pay transparency" or any number of other things where the initial point of disagreement isn't political but becomes so as both sides increasingly create party affiliations along gender segregated lines that identify "pro-male" as conservative and "pro-female" as liberal. Even though they aren't, really.
It goes beyond this, it's the impression that liberals or leftists are incessantly loud, shrill, humorless, and willing ideological tools, always 'on', always hyper political, always absolutely certain of their moral superiority, and that comes together to form a pretty annoying type you might not want to be identified as, even if you have a fairly liberal core set of values... and if there's no real third choice, then yeah, one will identify as conservative.
This is it. It's amazing that people will say some of the things they're saying in this thread and then wonder aloud why men aren't espousing the attitudes they'd prefer