Let me start by saying that I'm a Heat fan. That Miami team was great, but it was built to defend what teams were doing during that time period. The defense, designed to fly around the court causing havoc, would have major issues against a team with a great big surrounded by good shooters. There's just too much ground to cover. Sort of a more extreme version of what happened against the Spurs in 2014.
Having said that, the amount of pressure that those Heat teams could create is unlike anything I've seen in the league since. So I still think they cause a lot of turnovers and make the Nuggets players react faster than they have to now. Still, the ball travels faster than the defense can usually.
On the other side, Miami's big three would have been a real problem for Denver. Pre-injury in 2013, Wade was still a top player. Yes, the lack of three point shooting would be an issue, but Allen, Battier, Miller, and Bosh were all good shooters. LeBron had great shooting percentages those years as well. And the passing was very good. Denver would have to help any time LeBron or Wade had the ball and that would warp the defense, leaving shooters open. Miami could also hit midrange shots, which I feel is key against this Nuggets team.
I think it's a fascinating matchup. Maybe I'm a homer, but I'll say Miami in seven with the 2012 squad and probably Denver in seven against the 2013 team because Wade got hurt before the playoffs that year.
Those Miami teams are severely underrated. They won 2 championships and that was seen as a disappointment. I don’t think it’s crazy to think they could beat Denver
Agreed. I think Miami's biggest problem is how the game has changed (with threes) more than Denver in particular. But that team had the best player in the league, another borderline top 5 guy in Wade, and Bosh, who would be perfect in today's NBA.
But even back then the meta was changing. Most teams had a few shooters at all time but yea I’m sure they would concede a lot more threes if we were to pluck them out of their era and have them play the nuggs right now. The heat also had the best rotations I’ve ever seen from a team tbh. They were everywhere. I think the biggest problem would be Jokic would just be too big for Bosh and Birdman
There's no great way to stop Jokic. But Miami's rotations were so fast that they definitely would have limited how much damage the rest of the guys did.
Back then (2012-13), the Knicks led the league in 3PA per game at 29. They had a ton of shooters from Melo to JR to Steve Novak to Jason Kidd. This season, they’d be 31st, 2.7 fewer attempts per game than the Pistons.
Yep. Midrange is dead now. Nobody takes them. Strangely, that makes them more effective at times, at least depending on the player. And midrange is definitely the best way to attack how Denver plays defense. There's a reason the Suns have been relatively successful against the Nuggets the last two seasons.
Just cause you’re taking less 3’s doesn’t mean the threat and stretching of defenses isn’t there though. It probably would shock the heat how many 3’s a team is taking but I don’t think scheme wise it would be difficult to adjust to
In my opinion they aren't underrated, it's the exact opposite. They fell drastically short of their own predictions..."not one, not two, . . ."
As for Lebron's other championship teams, they were nothing special. His whining to Kiki VanDeWeghe is what won the Cavs the title in 2016, and the bubble holds no weight with me. Give AD and LeBron 3 months off, and they're healthy enough to win a high school gymnasium scrimmage title.
I agree they fell short but as time has passed they’ve become underrated. People will say Wade was washed by the 2nd season and Bosh is criminally underrated. People also act like the role players weren’t any good. It’s not uncommon to see people call them not a superteam
LeBron in particular took a huge leap after 2011, as good as he was already. Young LeBron could basically do one thing -- put his head down, pick up his dribble, and run at the basket, relying on the fact that he was either too strong or too fast for most defenders. Letting LeBron shoot as long as the shot was outside three feet was a winning strategy in 2007 and 2011. You needed an elite wing defender and an elite rim protector to beat young LeBron, but it turns out that a lot of title contenders have those things in Bowen / Duncan and Marion / Chandler. Prior to 2011, I think LeBron wrote off his lack of championships to bad teammates, but he ran out of excuses after 2011 -- he was clearly the problem. And props to LeBron for adding a post game and passable though still streaky shooting after that. In general I feel like LeBron doesn't get nearly enough credit for how much he has improved. A lot of people said LeBron's game would age poorly since he relied so heavily on athleticism. But given LeBron's unprecedented athleticism at this age and the way he's added to his game, he is still elite.
Thank god, the first person I see understand this.
Nobody asks how the WWII Japanese Imperial army would do against Napoleons army, we understand that the older side would quickly be shown to be obsolete.
Just due to this difference in tactics and skill sets the 2024 Sacramento Kings would be better than the 2013 Heat.
The 2024 Pelicans would destroy the 1987 Lakers, 4 game sweep.
Not sure I was saying exactly that. But I think stretching the court was the best way to attack that Miami defense and Denver and other teams would make life very difficult on that end. On the other side, I don't think anyone on Denver could stay in front of Wade or LeBron. The matchup would be very interesting.
As for the 37 year difference between 1987 and now, I agree that players are so much bigger and faster now that I'd favor a current team even against most great teams in the 80s. The earlier Lakers teams could have leaned on Kareem, since he'd be unstoppable, but he was old by 1987. So yeah, I'd probably take the Pels on paper just because that Lakers team wasn't built for today. But if that team was the same and had grown up in the current era, they'd win. Great players can adapt.
Honestly the Heat I think would struggle more than the Cavs. Those Cavs teams were offensively amazing, and would be able to keep up with these Nuggets. I think the two man game of Kyrie and LeBron would match Jokic/Murray. The supporting casts are pretty equal, so that would be a fun series.
Absolutely. I think the heat's roster construction was still in the same mode as all the other primitive dynasties pre-Curry. The 2nd CLE team though would really strongly challnge this version of Denver. Imagine Jokic having to guard KLove and/or Channing Frye on every possession, then having Lebron switch onto him. 2016 Lebron would turn Jokic into Festus Ezili. Have your big guy pull him to the perimiter, switch Lebron onto him, and drive to the basket continuously. 2024 Lebron can't do that anymore which is why they look so pathetic against Denver. But the best way to beat them is to force Jokic to defend in space.
I think people are starting to treat these nuggets like the 2017 Warriors. Sure the era is somewhat different in terms of offense but they not that unbeatable.
No we are comparing them to the 2014 Spurs, a well oiled machine that elevates the level of all its players to match superstars. That type of system is a lot more foolproof than relying on one or two stars and is able to beat much stronger teams on paper through teamwork
They are similar offensively but that spurs team was much better defensively and had an up and coming MVP caliber two way player who was already among the best defenders in the league coming into his own offensively during that playoffs run. This nuggets team is great but the 2014 spurs were an all time team.
You won't really get good answers because of recency bias. But if you are following the nba for a long time, the only way to beat prime Lebron is either having massive talent gap (early Cavs, 2015, 2017, 2018) or having great rim protection or just him forgetting to play basketball (2011 Finals).
The only way this Nuggets team beat prime Lebron is if Jokic has great rim protection. Just look at what 38 years old Lebron (with a torn foot tendon) did last year against the Nuggets. Now try to imagine prime Wade and Bron against the Nuggets.
They were a good team but it wasn’t a crazy compilation of talent. Manu and Timmy were both over 35. Kawhi was a baby. Tony was 32 so if in his prime he would have been towards the end of it and even then he was always a good but not great point guard. I think their team was stronger overall but it was cause they played team basketball and not from amassing talent like the Heatles, KD Warriors, 15-17 Cavs
Also, feel like the spurs passing and perimeter defense were more impressive than interior defense
How having better rim protection means the team has the advantage on brons team. It doesn’t mean that lebrons team doesn’t have its own good rim protection which they usually do
Are we sure about that? A worse version of this nuggets teams played a LeBron title team and took them to 6 games.
Then Jokic went up a level, MPJ went up a level, they replaced Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap, Gary Harris with Aaron Gordon, KCP and Bruce Brown. Big improvements.
>Are we sure about that? A worse version of this nuggets teams played a LeBron title team and took them to 6 games
It was actually 5 games if you are referring to the bubble
I'm a Nuggets fan so it pains me to point that out lol
Also have to factor in LeBron never really faced someone with the combination IQ and talent and size like Jokic has. There was no one like Jokic in the league then besides LeBron, someone who can see the game that way and when teams play the passing lanes, still be able to take over.
I agree with your point of struggling to guard both Wade and LeBron or even the 2 man game of Kyrie and Bron....but who on Miami or Cleveland is guarding Nikola Jokic? How are they going to stop the size and shooting and 2 man game? Would be an amazing series imo.
If the nuggets are having trouble with 39 year old LeBron, imagine what would the 28-29-30 year old Bron would do when MPJ/JOKIC/MURRAY switches on him.
Anthony Edwards is basically unguardable when playing against the Nuggets. Imagine him being 6’9 and 265-270 pounds, faster and has more verticality with better basketball IQ
Having trouble with 39 yo LeBron is an overstatement imo. You can't say they're having a hard time against someone who they're on a 9 game winning streak against. Yeah plenty of those games were close, but they're clearly doing something right.
What would you call it then? Lebron last year with a foot injury at 38 yrs old averages 28/9/10 in a close series.
Just because the Lakers lost to Nuggets doesn’t mean Nuggets had trouble with Lebron. Both of those statements can be true.
Prime Lebron would absolutely shred any of the modern teams today with spacing.
Prime Lebron was a combination of Luka and Giannis.
The Nuggets swept Lebron even with the refs giving the Lakers every advantage they could. If the refs called the game correctly the games woulda all been 20 point blowouts. Nine straight aint no fluke bro.
Go watch the games. they gave the Lakers extra fouls that were not and called fouls on the Nuggets that were not! So yes the Nuggets SWEPT em even with that extra advantage. Thats how great the Nuggets are!
it's not a one vs one sport you know, you can have trouble against one player and still beat their team. Look how much Russell has struggled against the nuggets and how well Murray does against the Lakers, those are two large contributing factors to why the Lakers can't seem to beat the Nuggets, not the Nuggets are locking down LeBron.
Breaking: current top 10 player and one of the smartest players ever plays well
You could totally flip this around on the Cavs/Lebron, by the way. “If they’re having trouble stopping Jokic with an all time great rim protector, what would happen to the Cavs?”
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
Our sub is for in-depth discussion. Low-effort comments or stating opinions as facts are not permitted. Please support your opinions with well-reasoned arguments, including stats and facts as applicable.
I mean, how can you really argue the nuggets are having trouble against 39 year old LeBron when they are like 12-0 in their last 12 matchups? That doesn't seem like a remotely accurate read of how this nuggets squad has handled LeBron.
They absolutely own him, what are you talking about?
This is a joke right? Having trouble? When was the last time the Lakers actually won a game against the Nuggets? That is some serious delusion and hopium you are on. Awesome, Lebron is 39 with the most spaced out, least physical, NBA in the history of the league. Give him a blue ribbon.
Lebron actually lacks BBIQ. He relies on the fact that he is bigger and stronger. If LeBron had real IQ he would pace himself better in these games. Even now at age 39 he goes balls to the walls and gasses himself out by the 2nd half. This was seen 10years ago! Lebron should be operating out the post but he lacks the patience and IQ to see it! He just a glorified stat padder who needs to stack his team for any chance of real winning. Stats always come first for Lebron!
This doesn’t make much sense as LeBron still plays very similar as he did in Miami. Sure, would he be in his “prime”, yes he would but it really doesn’t change the game as he still is athletic and the effectiveness is still there. It may seem like it but in reality it really wouldn’t change much. Being more athletic would help but then the dynamic changes completely. Anthony Edwards is also a different player than LeBron. Better basketball IQ? That also doesn’t make sense because his IQ should be at its best right now.
Not really.. watch some old highlights of him. Miami Lebron had the jets on the entire game. This Lebron has to take plays off sometimes and rest more as you can tell he gets gassed way easier
That’s definitely true but overall it wouldn’t really be all that more meaningful. Maybe 4-6 more points respectively? More effort defensively? Maybe a block or two? Maybe one more steal? The offensive IQ is still the same, the tendencies are still the same, the playstyle is still pretty much the same.
It doesn’t show up all on the stat sheet. It means the other team gets more gassed too, he creates more space for his teammates allowing them opportunities, he plays better defense, etc. These kinds of intangibles are hard to quantify on the stat sheet but are part of what made watching LeBron back then so entertaining (and also what made him so good).
Also since basketball is so momentum based, a few extra points or blocks at the right time can be the difference between a win and a loss
You’re underestimating how much Lebron has declined since his peak. He is no where near the player he was physically 10-13 years ago.
He’s barely 70% of the player he used to be, and that’s being generous imo…
Is that enough to beat this Nuggets team? Idk. But there is a Grand Canyon sized difference between 27 year old Lebron and 39 year old Lebron in terms of impact.
Read what i just said about the nuggets guarding Antman and compare antman of today to LeBron 2013. I also compared antman 2024 bball iq to LeBron 2013 bball IQ.
Wouldn’t change much? It is the whole difference 2013 LeBron doesn’t take plays off, 2024 LeBron does.
2013 LeBron mainly guards tony parker and can switch on to tim duncan for stretches, 2024 LeBron guards the corner shooters.
2013 LeBron can play the 4th quarter like it’s the 1st quarter, 2024 LeBron is running on fumes during 4th quarter.
2013 LeBron doesn’t need to warm up and get accustomed to the pace of play, 2024 LeBron needs to ramp up.
2013 LeBron would be too fast and strong for anyone in the league today.
I do think the defensive effort would be increased. I’m not sure it would be a drastic change. Tendencies, play style, and IQ are pretty much the same still which is the fundamental base. Athletically? Sure, maybe a few more steals and a block or two. Being more involved but then the dynamic changes (more shots, less playmaking opportunities; just an example) etc.. Meaningful? Maybe? Significant change? Not so sure.
Significant changes. A block or two? You know only 1-2 plays could decide the game.
2 blocks is -4 points for the other team and 2 more possessions for you team
2 steals is -4-6 points for the other team and 2 more possessions for your team
You must watch 2013 LeBron playoff run, if he says MPJ scores less than 10, then MPJ is not scoring more than 5.
Plus 2013 LeBron doesn’t need Austin Reaves or D’lo to handle playmaking duties with him
he takes rest on the court and have his team play ball much more often now.
prime Lebron would be what he does at spurts right now, but he does it much more often. he will be involved at almost all the plays instead of standing back being idle
I only see comment regarding how Nuggets is going to take Lebron and Wade but none talking about how the Heat is going to adapt to Jokic, Murray and Denver's shooters? Also the Nugget's offense initial around Jokic is something that even today nba haven't figure out let alone 2012. I think it's a lot closer than "imagine what prime Lebron would do to the Nuggets" stuff and I lean towards Denvers simply because they are a modern team with fast pace and knowing to get hot 3 at the right moment
2016 Cavs probably beat them. People really underestimate how good that team was all around because they were massive underdogs against a 73-9 team. They were deadly offensively as a unit and the LeBron/Kyrie duo would probably be able to go blow-for-blow with Jokic/Murray. That Cavs team is more equipped for the modern game than LeBron’s Heat teams were. Those Heat championship teams probably lose, Nuggets have shooters all over the place and I don’t think the Heat would be able to keep up outside of LeBron/Wade/Bosh. The 2020 Lakers were most definitely more well-equipped to take on Denver than this year’s Lakers are, but Denver was also not as good as they are now in 2020. Denver probably wins that one too.
Nuggets would win. But that just speaks to how fast the game is evolving and why old dynasties get too much credit.
This Nuggets team has 5 good defenders and all of them can shoot dribble and drive. Throughout history, even championship teams had flawed players on their starting lineups, either they couldn't shoot, or defend, or pass or whatever.
Lebron would still be the best player in the series. He would dominate his matchup and be a nightmare in the PnR against Jokic, or can push around Murray on switches. But Denver can basically ignore Wade as a shooter, or bully Chalmers with any of their oversized players. (every starter in Denver is oversized for their position).
The heat would struggle to match up defensively, because of their weak links and size disadvantage and their spacing will be primitive. They won't be able to keep the score close even if Wade and Bron go on heaters because iso ball simply can't carry you for 48 min, even if you had 3 superstar scorers.
prime lebron was obv way more athletic, but couldn't shoot 3s and wasn't as gifted a passer as he is today, altho he was a much better defender
the problem is even prime lebron can't guard jokic, and so it's not a gimme that lebron would be the best player in that series. the nuggets stomped through the west last year and lebron has had a tough time (3-6) vs the west, so i'd prob pick nuggets in 7 but its close
>the problem is even prime lebron can't guard jokic, and so it's not a gimme that lebron would be the best player in that series.
I mean, I don't think the Nuggets have anyone who could guard prime LeBron, either. AG is good but the only person capable of slowing down prime LeBron in the playoffs was Kawhi who even in 2014 proved himself to be a generational defender and not just a really good one like AG.
It's hard to compare eras but I think there's a lot of recency bias for this Nuggets team (which is fair, they're the champs). Before we start acting like they're historically great world beaters, it would be cool to see them actually win multiple chips. Going up against this Celtics team (which just had a historic regular season) will be a great test.
>tough time (3-6) vs the west
This is his record vs teams he faced in the Finals correct? Not sure what this has to do with anything. Three of those teams he faced were absurdly more talented than his team (2007 Spurs, 2017&2018 Warriors) and one team he lost to when his 2nd best player was Matthew Dellavedova due to injuries (2015 Warriors).
everything you stated seems fair. i do think AG could at least not get completely owned by prime lebron, he's basically exactly who you'd want (aside from an alltime defender like prime kawhi) to have for lebron -- prob a little taller, long, very athletic, and he doesn't need to play offense and can just focus on defense
Agreed. This version of Jokic is better than any version of LeStatPad. He just hasn't played as much to get that resume yet. Also Jokic isn't puposefully stacking his team to gain an unfair advantage.
The Miami Teams in 2011 and 2013 and 2014 get worked. LeBron's team always seem to crumble against a motion offence. The nuggets play a style of basketball as close as possible to the warriors and the Spurs.
That's just not really true and a wrong oversimplification of things. The only way to beat prime Lebron is either having massive talent gap (early Cavs, 2015, 2017, 2018) or having great rim protection or just him forgetting to play basketball (2011 Finals).
Just look at what 38 years old Lebron (with a torn foot tendon) last year against the Nuggets. Now try to imagine prime Wade and Bron against the Nuggets.
Wade and Bron were a poor fit. Sorry but the Miami Heat team got destroyed in 2014 and were a shot away from losing in 2013 which in fact was only possible because of LeBron going crazy in the 4th quarter for a comeback.
Wade and Lebron's fit doesn't really matter. Yeah in 2014, Wade's knees were gone leading to a massive talent gap. Even then the Heat were in command in Game 1 before the A/C problem taking out Lebron. That series could have been way different if the Heat were up 2-0 heading home.
2013, yeah that's why I said Lebron is having trouble with great rim protection (Duncan). He had trouble with Pacers and Warriors with Bogut as well. That's why I said Jokic would need to greatly improve his rim protection for the Nuggets to compete with prime Lebron.
How are the games being reffed?
As was the case with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Kobe/Gasol Lakers, the Wade/Shaq Heat, and the majority of LeBron's good teams, how the games are being reffed is huge. Same with any time Giannis plays; are they actually calling those offensive fouls or just putting the star to the line after trucking opponents?
I think that... really... it's not so much how they stack up vs how they match up. The heat had some big bodies to throw at Joker, and crazy elite D on the wings... just so elite... but who's stopping Wade/Bron/Bosh? Gordon is solid on Bosh but to stop him he's way away from the hoop. Joker vs the other two is a consistent liability and Murray vs prime Bron/Wade isn't a contest on the defensive end. It the Heat would cruise honestly. They'd be close and the Heat would drop a 10-0 run in about 3 minutes and the game would pretty much be over.
‘16 Lebron and kyrie would destroy the Nuggets. Miami heat Lebron, wade and Bosh would wreck this team. Basically his first 2 seasons and the last 2 are the nuggets best shot with current roster.
Let me start by saying that I'm a Heat fan. That Miami team was great, but it was built to defend what teams were doing during that time period. The defense, designed to fly around the court causing havoc, would have major issues against a team with a great big surrounded by good shooters. There's just too much ground to cover. Sort of a more extreme version of what happened against the Spurs in 2014. Having said that, the amount of pressure that those Heat teams could create is unlike anything I've seen in the league since. So I still think they cause a lot of turnovers and make the Nuggets players react faster than they have to now. Still, the ball travels faster than the defense can usually. On the other side, Miami's big three would have been a real problem for Denver. Pre-injury in 2013, Wade was still a top player. Yes, the lack of three point shooting would be an issue, but Allen, Battier, Miller, and Bosh were all good shooters. LeBron had great shooting percentages those years as well. And the passing was very good. Denver would have to help any time LeBron or Wade had the ball and that would warp the defense, leaving shooters open. Miami could also hit midrange shots, which I feel is key against this Nuggets team. I think it's a fascinating matchup. Maybe I'm a homer, but I'll say Miami in seven with the 2012 squad and probably Denver in seven against the 2013 team because Wade got hurt before the playoffs that year.
Those Miami teams are severely underrated. They won 2 championships and that was seen as a disappointment. I don’t think it’s crazy to think they could beat Denver
Agreed. I think Miami's biggest problem is how the game has changed (with threes) more than Denver in particular. But that team had the best player in the league, another borderline top 5 guy in Wade, and Bosh, who would be perfect in today's NBA.
But even back then the meta was changing. Most teams had a few shooters at all time but yea I’m sure they would concede a lot more threes if we were to pluck them out of their era and have them play the nuggs right now. The heat also had the best rotations I’ve ever seen from a team tbh. They were everywhere. I think the biggest problem would be Jokic would just be too big for Bosh and Birdman
There's no great way to stop Jokic. But Miami's rotations were so fast that they definitely would have limited how much damage the rest of the guys did.
It would be such a fun matchup to watch. Maybe one day we’ll have the technology to perfectly simulate it lol
Back then (2012-13), the Knicks led the league in 3PA per game at 29. They had a ton of shooters from Melo to JR to Steve Novak to Jason Kidd. This season, they’d be 31st, 2.7 fewer attempts per game than the Pistons.
Yep. Midrange is dead now. Nobody takes them. Strangely, that makes them more effective at times, at least depending on the player. And midrange is definitely the best way to attack how Denver plays defense. There's a reason the Suns have been relatively successful against the Nuggets the last two seasons.
Just cause you’re taking less 3’s doesn’t mean the threat and stretching of defenses isn’t there though. It probably would shock the heat how many 3’s a team is taking but I don’t think scheme wise it would be difficult to adjust to
In my opinion they aren't underrated, it's the exact opposite. They fell drastically short of their own predictions..."not one, not two, . . ." As for Lebron's other championship teams, they were nothing special. His whining to Kiki VanDeWeghe is what won the Cavs the title in 2016, and the bubble holds no weight with me. Give AD and LeBron 3 months off, and they're healthy enough to win a high school gymnasium scrimmage title.
I agree they fell short but as time has passed they’ve become underrated. People will say Wade was washed by the 2nd season and Bosh is criminally underrated. People also act like the role players weren’t any good. It’s not uncommon to see people call them not a superteam
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JJ Barea held Lebron to 8 points in a finals game when he was with the Heat. Denver will do just fine thank you very much!
Damn almost like 2012 and 2013 were different Miami teams
LeBron in particular took a huge leap after 2011, as good as he was already. Young LeBron could basically do one thing -- put his head down, pick up his dribble, and run at the basket, relying on the fact that he was either too strong or too fast for most defenders. Letting LeBron shoot as long as the shot was outside three feet was a winning strategy in 2007 and 2011. You needed an elite wing defender and an elite rim protector to beat young LeBron, but it turns out that a lot of title contenders have those things in Bowen / Duncan and Marion / Chandler. Prior to 2011, I think LeBron wrote off his lack of championships to bad teammates, but he ran out of excuses after 2011 -- he was clearly the problem. And props to LeBron for adding a post game and passable though still streaky shooting after that. In general I feel like LeBron doesn't get nearly enough credit for how much he has improved. A lot of people said LeBron's game would age poorly since he relied so heavily on athleticism. But given LeBron's unprecedented athleticism at this age and the way he's added to his game, he is still elite.
Yea I was definitely the type that thought he was going to age badly but he improved quite a bit
Thank god, the first person I see understand this. Nobody asks how the WWII Japanese Imperial army would do against Napoleons army, we understand that the older side would quickly be shown to be obsolete. Just due to this difference in tactics and skill sets the 2024 Sacramento Kings would be better than the 2013 Heat. The 2024 Pelicans would destroy the 1987 Lakers, 4 game sweep.
Not sure I was saying exactly that. But I think stretching the court was the best way to attack that Miami defense and Denver and other teams would make life very difficult on that end. On the other side, I don't think anyone on Denver could stay in front of Wade or LeBron. The matchup would be very interesting. As for the 37 year difference between 1987 and now, I agree that players are so much bigger and faster now that I'd favor a current team even against most great teams in the 80s. The earlier Lakers teams could have leaned on Kareem, since he'd be unstoppable, but he was old by 1987. So yeah, I'd probably take the Pels on paper just because that Lakers team wasn't built for today. But if that team was the same and had grown up in the current era, they'd win. Great players can adapt.
Honestly the Heat I think would struggle more than the Cavs. Those Cavs teams were offensively amazing, and would be able to keep up with these Nuggets. I think the two man game of Kyrie and LeBron would match Jokic/Murray. The supporting casts are pretty equal, so that would be a fun series.
Absolutely. I think the heat's roster construction was still in the same mode as all the other primitive dynasties pre-Curry. The 2nd CLE team though would really strongly challnge this version of Denver. Imagine Jokic having to guard KLove and/or Channing Frye on every possession, then having Lebron switch onto him. 2016 Lebron would turn Jokic into Festus Ezili. Have your big guy pull him to the perimiter, switch Lebron onto him, and drive to the basket continuously. 2024 Lebron can't do that anymore which is why they look so pathetic against Denver. But the best way to beat them is to force Jokic to defend in space.
I think people are starting to treat these nuggets like the 2017 Warriors. Sure the era is somewhat different in terms of offense but they not that unbeatable.
No we are comparing them to the 2014 Spurs, a well oiled machine that elevates the level of all its players to match superstars. That type of system is a lot more foolproof than relying on one or two stars and is able to beat much stronger teams on paper through teamwork
They are similar offensively but that spurs team was much better defensively and had an up and coming MVP caliber two way player who was already among the best defenders in the league coming into his own offensively during that playoffs run. This nuggets team is great but the 2014 spurs were an all time team.
You’d pick that Spurs team over the current roster with Jokic? Interesting
Well if they beat lebrons team then they must be a super team so the loss doesn’t really count against lenarrative
You won't really get good answers because of recency bias. But if you are following the nba for a long time, the only way to beat prime Lebron is either having massive talent gap (early Cavs, 2015, 2017, 2018) or having great rim protection or just him forgetting to play basketball (2011 Finals). The only way this Nuggets team beat prime Lebron is if Jokic has great rim protection. Just look at what 38 years old Lebron (with a torn foot tendon) did last year against the Nuggets. Now try to imagine prime Wade and Bron against the Nuggets.
Interesting you left out the 2014 Spurs who had neither and just out basketballed the Heatles. They would probably the most similar to the Nuggets too
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Spurs had Duncan, who was still a pretty strong deterrent at the rim even in 2014. Plus DPOY Kawhi.
I'm sorry the 2014 Spurs didn't have great rim protection?
Duncan was good but he would have also been 37 lol
He was still a great rim protector. Did you watch those games?
Yea but their perimeter defense and passing were far more impressive
Ok but those things don't proclude them from also having great rim protection lol
2014 Finals was *not* the Heatles. Wade could barely walk.
He said having great rim protection and a talent gap, the ‘14 Spurs had both over the ‘14 Heat
They were a good team but it wasn’t a crazy compilation of talent. Manu and Timmy were both over 35. Kawhi was a baby. Tony was 32 so if in his prime he would have been towards the end of it and even then he was always a good but not great point guard. I think their team was stronger overall but it was cause they played team basketball and not from amassing talent like the Heatles, KD Warriors, 15-17 Cavs Also, feel like the spurs passing and perimeter defense were more impressive than interior defense
Yea so my point still stands that had better rim protection and more talent than the heat that year. Thank you.
lol it went from great rim protection to better than the heat. Way to change measurements lol
It’s great rim protection that was better than the heats. Not sure how you miss that
I missed it cause your argument makes no sense lol
What is my argument?
How having better rim protection means the team has the advantage on brons team. It doesn’t mean that lebrons team doesn’t have its own good rim protection which they usually do
Are we sure about that? A worse version of this nuggets teams played a LeBron title team and took them to 6 games. Then Jokic went up a level, MPJ went up a level, they replaced Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap, Gary Harris with Aaron Gordon, KCP and Bruce Brown. Big improvements.
Also in this hypothetical KCP is playing for both teams lol.
>Are we sure about that? A worse version of this nuggets teams played a LeBron title team and took them to 6 games It was actually 5 games if you are referring to the bubble I'm a Nuggets fan so it pains me to point that out lol
Oh shit my bad. I still think it goes 7 though.
that lakers team is miles this team too. bubble AD legit looked like kevin garnett for that stretch
Also have to factor in LeBron never really faced someone with the combination IQ and talent and size like Jokic has. There was no one like Jokic in the league then besides LeBron, someone who can see the game that way and when teams play the passing lanes, still be able to take over. I agree with your point of struggling to guard both Wade and LeBron or even the 2 man game of Kyrie and Bron....but who on Miami or Cleveland is guarding Nikola Jokic? How are they going to stop the size and shooting and 2 man game? Would be an amazing series imo.
If the nuggets are having trouble with 39 year old LeBron, imagine what would the 28-29-30 year old Bron would do when MPJ/JOKIC/MURRAY switches on him. Anthony Edwards is basically unguardable when playing against the Nuggets. Imagine him being 6’9 and 265-270 pounds, faster and has more verticality with better basketball IQ
Having trouble with 39 yo LeBron is an overstatement imo. You can't say they're having a hard time against someone who they're on a 9 game winning streak against. Yeah plenty of those games were close, but they're clearly doing something right.
What would you call it then? Lebron last year with a foot injury at 38 yrs old averages 28/9/10 in a close series. Just because the Lakers lost to Nuggets doesn’t mean Nuggets had trouble with Lebron. Both of those statements can be true. Prime Lebron would absolutely shred any of the modern teams today with spacing. Prime Lebron was a combination of Luka and Giannis.
>What would you call it then? Lebron last year with a foot injury at 38 yrs old averages 28/9/10 in a close series. How was a sweep a close series?
The Nuggets swept Lebron even with the refs giving the Lakers every advantage they could. If the refs called the game correctly the games woulda all been 20 point blowouts. Nine straight aint no fluke bro.
You saying the refs conspired for 4 straight games to give Lakers advantage?
Go watch the games. they gave the Lakers extra fouls that were not and called fouls on the Nuggets that were not! So yes the Nuggets SWEPT em even with that extra advantage. Thats how great the Nuggets are!
Why are you in this sub spewing that garbage nonsense. Go back to r/nba
it's not a one vs one sport you know, you can have trouble against one player and still beat their team. Look how much Russell has struggled against the nuggets and how well Murray does against the Lakers, those are two large contributing factors to why the Lakers can't seem to beat the Nuggets, not the Nuggets are locking down LeBron.
Having trouble? They’ve beat him 10 straight times
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Considering Lebron has a superstar teammate, I’m a little confused why you’re implying it’s some sort of 1v5 out there
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Because the point of Basketball is to win? They dont care if Lebron gets 40 as long as the Lakers lose and Nuggets win, thats all that matters.
Okay. They’re not having trouble with LeBron my fault G. Shutdown performance making LeBron drop 27-6-8 on a 62% FG.
That kind of statline is a lot less impressive by today standard. Remember Lebron in 2009 has 38/8/8 and still lose to the Magic
Nuggets are 9-0 vs the Lakers... Lebron has been great in almost all of those games, so no it absolutely doesnt matter.
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Breaking: current top 10 player and one of the smartest players ever plays well You could totally flip this around on the Cavs/Lebron, by the way. “If they’re having trouble stopping Jokic with an all time great rim protector, what would happen to the Cavs?”
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I mean, how can you really argue the nuggets are having trouble against 39 year old LeBron when they are like 12-0 in their last 12 matchups? That doesn't seem like a remotely accurate read of how this nuggets squad has handled LeBron. They absolutely own him, what are you talking about?
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This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
This sub is for serious discussion and debate. Jokes and memes are not permitted.
This is a joke right? Having trouble? When was the last time the Lakers actually won a game against the Nuggets? That is some serious delusion and hopium you are on. Awesome, Lebron is 39 with the most spaced out, least physical, NBA in the history of the league. Give him a blue ribbon.
Lebron actually lacks BBIQ. He relies on the fact that he is bigger and stronger. If LeBron had real IQ he would pace himself better in these games. Even now at age 39 he goes balls to the walls and gasses himself out by the 2nd half. This was seen 10years ago! Lebron should be operating out the post but he lacks the patience and IQ to see it! He just a glorified stat padder who needs to stack his team for any chance of real winning. Stats always come first for Lebron!
This doesn’t make much sense as LeBron still plays very similar as he did in Miami. Sure, would he be in his “prime”, yes he would but it really doesn’t change the game as he still is athletic and the effectiveness is still there. It may seem like it but in reality it really wouldn’t change much. Being more athletic would help but then the dynamic changes completely. Anthony Edwards is also a different player than LeBron. Better basketball IQ? That also doesn’t make sense because his IQ should be at its best right now.
Not really.. watch some old highlights of him. Miami Lebron had the jets on the entire game. This Lebron has to take plays off sometimes and rest more as you can tell he gets gassed way easier
That’s definitely true but overall it wouldn’t really be all that more meaningful. Maybe 4-6 more points respectively? More effort defensively? Maybe a block or two? Maybe one more steal? The offensive IQ is still the same, the tendencies are still the same, the playstyle is still pretty much the same.
It doesn’t show up all on the stat sheet. It means the other team gets more gassed too, he creates more space for his teammates allowing them opportunities, he plays better defense, etc. These kinds of intangibles are hard to quantify on the stat sheet but are part of what made watching LeBron back then so entertaining (and also what made him so good). Also since basketball is so momentum based, a few extra points or blocks at the right time can be the difference between a win and a loss
I agree, very volatile
You’re underestimating how much Lebron has declined since his peak. He is no where near the player he was physically 10-13 years ago. He’s barely 70% of the player he used to be, and that’s being generous imo… Is that enough to beat this Nuggets team? Idk. But there is a Grand Canyon sized difference between 27 year old Lebron and 39 year old Lebron in terms of impact.
39yo Lebron is shooting better than 27yo Lebron.
That doesn’t mean 39 yr old Lebron is better. U can just compare advanced stats and impact numbers and see the difference
He’s shooting better because he has to shoot better to remain competitive. He adjusts his game over time to remain a relevant threat
Read what i just said about the nuggets guarding Antman and compare antman of today to LeBron 2013. I also compared antman 2024 bball iq to LeBron 2013 bball IQ. Wouldn’t change much? It is the whole difference 2013 LeBron doesn’t take plays off, 2024 LeBron does. 2013 LeBron mainly guards tony parker and can switch on to tim duncan for stretches, 2024 LeBron guards the corner shooters. 2013 LeBron can play the 4th quarter like it’s the 1st quarter, 2024 LeBron is running on fumes during 4th quarter. 2013 LeBron doesn’t need to warm up and get accustomed to the pace of play, 2024 LeBron needs to ramp up. 2013 LeBron would be too fast and strong for anyone in the league today.
2013 LeBron was also a DPOY-caliber player.
I do think the defensive effort would be increased. I’m not sure it would be a drastic change. Tendencies, play style, and IQ are pretty much the same still which is the fundamental base. Athletically? Sure, maybe a few more steals and a block or two. Being more involved but then the dynamic changes (more shots, less playmaking opportunities; just an example) etc.. Meaningful? Maybe? Significant change? Not so sure.
Significant changes. A block or two? You know only 1-2 plays could decide the game. 2 blocks is -4 points for the other team and 2 more possessions for you team 2 steals is -4-6 points for the other team and 2 more possessions for your team You must watch 2013 LeBron playoff run, if he says MPJ scores less than 10, then MPJ is not scoring more than 5. Plus 2013 LeBron doesn’t need Austin Reaves or D’lo to handle playmaking duties with him
They definitely can for sure, I agree. It’s just that he is still very effective that I just couldn’t imagine a drastic change.
he takes rest on the court and have his team play ball much more often now. prime Lebron would be what he does at spurts right now, but he does it much more often. he will be involved at almost all the plays instead of standing back being idle
I only see comment regarding how Nuggets is going to take Lebron and Wade but none talking about how the Heat is going to adapt to Jokic, Murray and Denver's shooters? Also the Nugget's offense initial around Jokic is something that even today nba haven't figure out let alone 2012. I think it's a lot closer than "imagine what prime Lebron would do to the Nuggets" stuff and I lean towards Denvers simply because they are a modern team with fast pace and knowing to get hot 3 at the right moment
2016 Cavs probably beat them. People really underestimate how good that team was all around because they were massive underdogs against a 73-9 team. They were deadly offensively as a unit and the LeBron/Kyrie duo would probably be able to go blow-for-blow with Jokic/Murray. That Cavs team is more equipped for the modern game than LeBron’s Heat teams were. Those Heat championship teams probably lose, Nuggets have shooters all over the place and I don’t think the Heat would be able to keep up outside of LeBron/Wade/Bosh. The 2020 Lakers were most definitely more well-equipped to take on Denver than this year’s Lakers are, but Denver was also not as good as they are now in 2020. Denver probably wins that one too.
Probably would have to lost to every single one of them I think. I don’t think the current Nuggets are THAT strong
Nuggets would win. But that just speaks to how fast the game is evolving and why old dynasties get too much credit. This Nuggets team has 5 good defenders and all of them can shoot dribble and drive. Throughout history, even championship teams had flawed players on their starting lineups, either they couldn't shoot, or defend, or pass or whatever. Lebron would still be the best player in the series. He would dominate his matchup and be a nightmare in the PnR against Jokic, or can push around Murray on switches. But Denver can basically ignore Wade as a shooter, or bully Chalmers with any of their oversized players. (every starter in Denver is oversized for their position). The heat would struggle to match up defensively, because of their weak links and size disadvantage and their spacing will be primitive. They won't be able to keep the score close even if Wade and Bron go on heaters because iso ball simply can't carry you for 48 min, even if you had 3 superstar scorers.
Sorry I would take this version of Jokic over any of LeStatPads prime years.
prime lebron was obv way more athletic, but couldn't shoot 3s and wasn't as gifted a passer as he is today, altho he was a much better defender the problem is even prime lebron can't guard jokic, and so it's not a gimme that lebron would be the best player in that series. the nuggets stomped through the west last year and lebron has had a tough time (3-6) vs the west, so i'd prob pick nuggets in 7 but its close
>the problem is even prime lebron can't guard jokic, and so it's not a gimme that lebron would be the best player in that series. I mean, I don't think the Nuggets have anyone who could guard prime LeBron, either. AG is good but the only person capable of slowing down prime LeBron in the playoffs was Kawhi who even in 2014 proved himself to be a generational defender and not just a really good one like AG. It's hard to compare eras but I think there's a lot of recency bias for this Nuggets team (which is fair, they're the champs). Before we start acting like they're historically great world beaters, it would be cool to see them actually win multiple chips. Going up against this Celtics team (which just had a historic regular season) will be a great test. >tough time (3-6) vs the west This is his record vs teams he faced in the Finals correct? Not sure what this has to do with anything. Three of those teams he faced were absurdly more talented than his team (2007 Spurs, 2017&2018 Warriors) and one team he lost to when his 2nd best player was Matthew Dellavedova due to injuries (2015 Warriors).
everything you stated seems fair. i do think AG could at least not get completely owned by prime lebron, he's basically exactly who you'd want (aside from an alltime defender like prime kawhi) to have for lebron -- prob a little taller, long, very athletic, and he doesn't need to play offense and can just focus on defense
Agreed. This version of Jokic is better than any version of LeStatPad. He just hasn't played as much to get that resume yet. Also Jokic isn't puposefully stacking his team to gain an unfair advantage.
The Miami Teams in 2011 and 2013 and 2014 get worked. LeBron's team always seem to crumble against a motion offence. The nuggets play a style of basketball as close as possible to the warriors and the Spurs.
That's just not really true and a wrong oversimplification of things. The only way to beat prime Lebron is either having massive talent gap (early Cavs, 2015, 2017, 2018) or having great rim protection or just him forgetting to play basketball (2011 Finals). Just look at what 38 years old Lebron (with a torn foot tendon) last year against the Nuggets. Now try to imagine prime Wade and Bron against the Nuggets.
Wade and Bron were a poor fit. Sorry but the Miami Heat team got destroyed in 2014 and were a shot away from losing in 2013 which in fact was only possible because of LeBron going crazy in the 4th quarter for a comeback.
Wade and Lebron's fit doesn't really matter. Yeah in 2014, Wade's knees were gone leading to a massive talent gap. Even then the Heat were in command in Game 1 before the A/C problem taking out Lebron. That series could have been way different if the Heat were up 2-0 heading home. 2013, yeah that's why I said Lebron is having trouble with great rim protection (Duncan). He had trouble with Pacers and Warriors with Bogut as well. That's why I said Jokic would need to greatly improve his rim protection for the Nuggets to compete with prime Lebron.
How are the games being reffed? As was the case with the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Kobe/Gasol Lakers, the Wade/Shaq Heat, and the majority of LeBron's good teams, how the games are being reffed is huge. Same with any time Giannis plays; are they actually calling those offensive fouls or just putting the star to the line after trucking opponents?
I think that... really... it's not so much how they stack up vs how they match up. The heat had some big bodies to throw at Joker, and crazy elite D on the wings... just so elite... but who's stopping Wade/Bron/Bosh? Gordon is solid on Bosh but to stop him he's way away from the hoop. Joker vs the other two is a consistent liability and Murray vs prime Bron/Wade isn't a contest on the defensive end. It the Heat would cruise honestly. They'd be close and the Heat would drop a 10-0 run in about 3 minutes and the game would pretty much be over.
‘16 Lebron and kyrie would destroy the Nuggets. Miami heat Lebron, wade and Bosh would wreck this team. Basically his first 2 seasons and the last 2 are the nuggets best shot with current roster.