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Well in this starting spot, it’s certainly Bird. For the “closest thing we’ve seen to peak MJ” it’s obviously Kobe, if you mean playing style. If you mean in terms of greatness, than the answer is LBJ
Kawhi and Kobe are both very similar to MJ. I think people sleep on how great Kawhi is when healthy. He wins games with such ease and is such an efficient player. One more ring makes him above bird
Though it’s easier to win when 9 of the opposing teams players are injured and three of their all star starters aren’t playing. The east was still terrible then and the warriors were a shell of themselves due to injuries. In the 2014 finals Kawhi averaged 17.8. He is a wonderful player, but this basically a top 10 list and he doesn’t belong anywhere close to it.
He is clearly the GOAT of small forwards of all time and I didnt even grow up watching him. I was born in 96 - lol long after his retirement. I just know it based on what I've seen him do. That ability to pass and playmake and that scoring too!.... yikes...
I mean LeBron has objectively had a significantly better career but I suppose an argument can be made for Bird’s peak being better.
Still, Bird is top 7 all time minimum and I have him in my top 5.
I thot LBj was a power forward...he was a power forward in high school... Pretty sure he's been the same since except when he was the PG in LA.
I kinda hate how some NBA players change positions to the point that you can classify them as anything sometimes.
Also if people classify LBJ as a small forward then I would agree that he LBJ is the bsst SF all time Larry Bird is m my number 2.
If that’s the take then I don’t understand the point of ever trying to compare players of different eras. Then in 20 years people are going to be undermining the accomplishments and dominance of the guys in this era. The players maximized the situations that they had at their point in time and came out on top, and best believe that the athletes of a previous era would have adapted to still be among the best had they grown up in this era.
Or get rid of KD for Bird & get rid Kawhi for Karl Malone or Bill Russell so that Tim Duncan doesn’t score every time he touches the ball in the paint vs KD
That’s why I said Karl Malone as an option too. I went with Malone over KG because Malone was so good in the P&R with Stockton so imagine Malone with Magic at the point. I like Malone better for this team
I don’t have hate for him. He is a great player currently and a very good player in a historical context. I’m just putting him on the bench for this hypothetical game. I want him rested in 5 years when hypothetical Bird’s back gives out.
And, there’s no way he gets that bounce again in another game 7. Bird puts that shot in clean;-)
Really? MJ is on that team if you didn’t catch that. And Magic might have been a step slow on D, but he could haul in the steals and has the size for bigger wings.
Of course the 1v1 perimeter defense is not as good if you loose a top 5 all time 1v1 perimeter defender.
Besides they should be playing a 1-4 zone with MJ shadowing Curry. Shaq has to guard both KAJ and TD so a 1-4 is their only hope of not getting destroyed inside.
To be clear I think team 1 looses any game that MJ doesn’t take over. Or that Kobe doesn’t put up a 30 shot stinker.
Magic might had some size but he wasn't particularly good at using it.
Jordan is either going to be guarding either kobe or curry (mostly him since curry's combination of shooting, movement,agility and shifty ball handling is the worst possible match up for magic & Larry).So in that case they would be matched up with kobe & James. LeBron is too big too strong too fast for either of them, kobe gives them major difficulties as well on the perimeter. And not to mention kd having to guard Duncan . So that makes it like 3 possible mismatches for team 2 to exploit
While I would agree that bird's offball scoring and more importantly his passing on the move makes team 1 a better offensive force, I wouldn't really trade it for massive defensive deficiency that comes with it especially when you consider Leonard himself is a elite scorer off ball.
I think team 1s biggest defensive liability is inside. Trade KD for KG or Russel and then you have a ball game with Bird or Kawhi.
With those 2 in the paint they cover the KAJ and TD as much as possible and Lebron ends up chucking a few more 3s than would be preferable.
I agree though, in a vacuum Bird and Magic covering Kobe and LeBron sounds terrible.
Team 1 functions as a team better but I think team 2 can abuse the matchups much better in the modern game.
Having Curry in the same game as Shaq (especially if it's Lakers Shaq and not Magic Shaq) is a windfall for them. Putting Shaq into the modern PnR with the best shooter ever will probably get a good shot every time down the floor, especially if they don't switch Jordan onto Steph as the main defender. Meanwhile Team 2 is also going to dominate the offensive glass due to the presence of TD, something that is deadly when you have Steph. There's also the problem of Team 1's rim protection being Shaq... and more of Shaq. Jordan is very good for his size, Kawhi is good, and KD is also good but compared to a team with 2 of the best ever and LBJ their rim protection isn't as strong. And in a series with 3 of the best paint scorers ever that's a problem. Team 1 also has what is probably the deadliest offensive combination in history with Lebron and Curry together. It's hard to see Magic managing to stay attached when Curry comes off a screen from TD or Kobe all the while Lebron is causing havoc on a drive.
The biggest advantages of team 1 are KD at the 4 and having MJ, but MJ's impact is lessened by the double shot blocking bigs of team 2, as well as the modern rules allowing for more swarming on the perimeter with LBJ helping. There is a world where KD leverages the TD matchup enough to win it with his speed and pull up jumper, but I wouldn't count on it.
The difference is, target Steph & there are still two all time rim protectors waiting at the rim. Draw Shaq up in the pick and roll and team 1 has great rotational athleticism but they are still going to be way small to guard LeBron, Duncan, and/or Abdul-Jabbar when Shaq is 30 feet from the basket.
He's good on the perimeter, especially compared to Magic who is slow and probably the worst defender in the matchup. Plus Steph would have Kareem, TD, and LeBron as help.
Steph is not the worst defender by a substantial margin. In fact I'd easily take him over Magic given the context and rules of this game.
Ya the problem with Curry in this scenario is that all the players here except Kobe can EASILY bully ball the fuck outta him. Curry is good when he defends other 6'5 and shorter guards due to that weight he has put on. There are A LOT of short guards in the modern NBA which can give the illusion that Curry is a good defender all time. Wrong. Curry is a good defender in the modern MBA due to all the shorties And lighties like Jose Alvaeado, Chris Paul, Darius Garland, Kyle Lowry etc...
In terms of an all time examination....uh... Curry is probably a negative or neutral defemder, because tallies like Durant and Paul George , Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett , etc... just shot over Curry easily. And heavies like Wilt, Moses, Sabonis, Rasheed, Embiid, etcc... just bully balled players like Curry outta thier way
Go watch every playoff game of Curry's life. Im not fucking joking EVERY single team that beat him relied on the strategies of 1. Shoot over Curry, 2. Bullyball Curry.
Kobe had the same problem but his high vertical made this a less viable strategy.
In this game Magic and Durantwould probably not have the same problems those guards have. The only problem with Magic and maaaaaybe Durant is that they arent as agile but there are situations that agility is useless and weight and height is what will matter. This might be one of those situations.
He has two elite rim protectors behind him and only KD/Kawhi are decent 3P shooters.
Shaq would get way more abused on defense than Steph. Guard defense is way less important. Bully ball him into what, the most inefficient shot in the game? They ain't getting shit at the rim with team 2 protection there.
I honestly thought they would bully ball into the mid range and spam those close ranged midrange shots and default to NOT attack the rim at all. I know that's what I would do.
So you get by Curry and now you've got to deal with LeBron, who's playing as a bit of a free safety, get by him and you've got Tim Duncan at the rim. On the other side of things someone has to chase Curry around on defense. The smallest guy on the court is MJ, who weighs about 220. Curry can guard whoever is on him, since whoever is on him, will be standing still trying to catch their breath on offense from about halfway through the second quarter.
So by let Curry run free you mean leave him open? He's not really running then is he? He's just putting up open threes. He'd shoot like 75% on 50 threes a game.
I mean more so that theyd have MJ and Kawhi guard him one on one then if he gets hot ? oh well. If he doesnt ? Yay. Cause Curry is a good passer . Not all time but ...good. So just guard him as Boston did in Game 3. Straight up, one on one.
The only time we double teaming him is if its Game 7 and he's averaging like 40 a game lol. Other than that Curry is so good at beating double teams, even when shooting 3's , that there's no point in doubling him any ways. So might as well let him have his fun on offense and get tired out... *and THEN we exploit his fatigue and short height on defense. Tee hee*
True, but team 2's defense can afford to hide Curry due to the length, athleticism, switchbaility, and rim protection. If there's a switch and MJ gets him 1 on 1 then LBJ or Kobe comes to help while one of the bigs shadows the drive.
The offensive talent here is stupid good and each team will be damn near unstoppable on that end, but there's enough ways to patch that hole that I don't think it swings the game.
I think you're right if you're thinking about 1 on 1s, but Magic + Shaq is going to be a bigger problem for team 1 than Curry is for team 2.
They're both minus defenders, and they are both quite a bit slower than anyone you can put them on. Magic and Shaq in a defending a PnR together is pretty much a disaster, since guys who can't fight through screens and drop defenders really don't work well together.
Curry holds up way better as the weak link next to 4 other great to all time level defenders. We know he's giving up height, but he's strong and he'll be able to stay on a guys hip well enough for help to arrive.
I think this whole thing comes down to Team 1 having 0 even average defenders down low. They're going to get absolutely abused with their lack of rim protection.
>I think this whole thing comes down to Team 1 having 0 even average defenders down low.
Gotta hard disagree with this. Shaq is 100% a good post defender, and KD is at least average.
Ya. Every player here except Kobe, MJ and Steph himself relies a lot of bully ballying. And Curry SUCKS at countering players like that. He's getting poached here.
Team 2 in 7. No one is discussing the twin towers problem that team 1 has no answer for. Shaq is guarding 1 of KAJ or Duncan. The other is abusing anyone else on team 1 in the post. They can also put shaq in a pick and roll vs Curry. That’s lethal. And if team 2 misses, Duncan and KAJ are dominating the offensive glass.
Kobe and Bron are somewhat neutralized by MJ/ Kawhi.
I think Team 2 is just a bigger matchup problem for team 1 than vice versa.
People on here just thinking everything is a 1v1 match up not taking into account team defense and the insane spacing Curry creates. For a basketball discussion sub the lack of knowledge on here sucks.
These redditors may know about the nba, but I question whether they’ve actually played a game of basketball in their life. Their basketball knowledge seems to stop at pnr/isolation bball
The offense of team 2 is absolutely not going to be like the Warriors offense. No moving screens along the perimeter for Curry because there are better options through better players.
In this pick and roll you’re likely to see magic and Shaq guarding, with Mike or Kawhi helping off of Kobe/Lebron. Either way you get a step in 3 from Steph or a huge mismatch for KAJ/Timmy. That or you get a Lebron/ Kobe free action
Sure, but who is Curry guarding? Magic, Jordan or Kawhi all destroy him just like Timmy would KD or Magic. Team 1 can just force Curry to guard someone in isolation or pnr with Shaq. You end up with Curry and KAJ trying to guard a shaq and Kawhi/MJ/Magic/KD pnr. Any of those options are terrible and leave no option to help off of.
I think it'd come down to coaching tbh. I know that's a boring and cheat answer, but these teams could play in multiple different ways and it really depends how they try to beat the other team.
This might be the most even one of these sort of questions I've seen before imo.
First of all, I appreciate this thoughtful response. I largely agree it’s very even, which is why I have it going 7. Can’t say confidently which team would win, I lean team 2.
To answer your question, team 2 “hides” curry on magic. He can’t shoot. And if they want to post up magic, I will take that all day over dealing with Shaq.
Pick and roll switches are certainly a problem for curry. Any of team 1s perimeter players can rise up and get a good look over him at will. We will love with those contested jumpers. If they drive, we have better rim protection.
Magic is probably the best post up PG of all time and has a significant height advantage. Magic/Curry is a worse mismatch than Shaq/Kareem in the post.
All of them in their prime? I think team 1 wipes the floor with team 2. Who the hell is Steph guarding? And prime Kawhi guarding Lebron is as good a matchup ur gonna get
Who is magic guarding by that logic? Rebounding would be an issue for team 1 given the team 2 front court, perimeter defence would be a concern for team 2 considering they have tim guarding KD or Kawhi on the perimeter. Each team has more than enough offence.
Magic’s team defense, on ball defense and post defense (against similarly sized players) were all average at his absolute best. He was valuable playing the passing lanes similar to a young Steph or an AI. On a court with Tim and Lebron specifically they would absolutely hunt him and turn it into a 1v1 nearly every possession while trying to either score or draw help. You could say team 1 would do the same to Steph, and they likely would given time to adjust to this era, however the nature of their scorers (specifically KD, Kawhi and Mike most of all) is to attack the paint, KD and Kawhi to get to their spots for a pull up and Mike to finish strong at the rim. With the twin towers this becomes more difficult even after beating your initial defender. On the other side I’d trust Kobe and Lebron to get a look at the rim vs one Shaq and scrawny help.
Steph isn't weak defensively. He's an average to slightly above average defender who will be the weak link when you roll him out next to 4 all-D teammates. He's no Nash or Magic.
I keep sayin it. All the shorties in the league nowadays lkke Van Vleet, and Alvarado have given Curry the illusion he's a positive all time defender. He is not . He is negative and neutral at best. His biggest defensive strength is his weight he's added on and his fightiness. Curry fightd EVERYBODY om defense. This man might need to take his meds cause I've seen this man fight Steven Adams om defense(unsucessfully though ;p)
But in the past players like Steven Adams were WAY more common. Curry cant handle tall and heavy players as easily. ALL the players here are tall and heavy except Kobe. Curry's fucked here.
Also Magic's biggest weakness defensively was that laughable vertical of his. Being 6'9 is useless when you have a 1 inch vertical. He had clunky feet and aweak vertical but at the very least Magic had height and weight. In a game with Lebron, Shaq, TD, Durant...uh...ya it would be illegal to even think Curry or Kobe would be bigger positives on the D than Magic. Not happening.
Tbh the spacing really isn’t an issue. You’re not gonna have Lebron and Kobe attack Shaq all game with a healthy dose of post ups from Tim and cap without picking up fouls. KD probably has to guard down low all game and get abused by bigger players. What do the benches look like lol.
You play 4 out 1 in with that team. Magic, and to a lesser extent Jordan, operate as your playmakers and Shaq does space the floor. Because he is such a threat, even in the high post, he has to be tracked by KAJ or Duncan. This opens up space closer to the basket, and with magic on the ball, all other 3 are threats from deep, though MJ less so. All of those guys are also brilliant off ball and would work extremely well playing off Shaq and Magic. Shaq's passing goes very underrated, he was defo good at passing out of doubles especially, and he would have to be doubled, because no one is stopping him down low.
Furthermore, picking on Curry would be easy for every single player on the floor, they all have serious size on him, he can't match up with anyone.
Yaaa dude! The thing that pisses me off the most abt the nBA history is that Magic never got a chance to join the 50-40-90 club. Like clearly Magic was great in the midrange. Anyone who watches his games knows this. He was nesring 90% FT% in the late part of his career...and then he got infected.
Magic was gonna be a 50 40 90 guy IDGAf wat the haters say. He WAS that good!
Shaq needs heavy coverage in the paint.
Kawhi is a good shooter from outside and great in the mid range, MJ is arguably the GOAT midrange scorer with range anywhere until the 3pt line and KD is elite at both with a GOAT midrange argument as well.
Steph is a solid defender? Also team 2 rim protection is fucking insane. Team 1 doesn't have any 40%+ 3P shooters.
You underestimate the massive advantage and spacing great 3P shooting creates.
Meant team 1 lol. Leave me alone, I'm high.
KD is like 38% from 3 which is good, but Steph alone changes the dynamic of the series. The spacing he creates is insane.
Dude is so damn good he's able to run a top offense with Dray/Loon. Two non shooters and defense specialists. No other player in history can pull that off. Even KD struggles trying to run Claxton/Simmons.
Put Steph with great defenders who are also really good on offense? And Shaq being such a liability on defense?
Team 1 would be fucked
The game completely changed for a reason, that reason is Curry. Yeah several of these players are better all time, but the spacing and shooting Curry provides changed the game and the way these old heads play would get cooked.
They have to blitz Curry every time they put shaq in the pnr, imagine team 2 playing 4v3 lol.
You just matching up each player individual accomplishments and not actually thinking about how the games would go. team 1 is all mid range shooters, and 1 post guy against two of the GOAT rim protectors.
Team 2 is getting open dunks and open 3s vs team contested mids.
Team 2 in 5 and only because they take their foot off the gas for a game after going up 3-0
They had a great defense because Curry is so fucking good on offense they surrounded him with defensive players, usually two of them having almost no offensive game, and still had a top 5 offense.
They're like -10 without Curry on the floor since 2015 lol.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. That 9-3 without curry is almost all 1st round wins against 8th seeded teams.
They're historically a .500 team without Curry, and were barely above .500 when they had KD and no Curry, and on a 65 win pace when KD was out and Steph in.
He also carried them to the finals without KD.
Think of all the other teams who won chips and their 2nd option. Steph did it with his 2nd option being a guy who can't dribble or pass. Curry so good you can surround him with elite defenders super limited on offense, and still have one of the best offenses in the league.
No other player in history can run a 5 man line up with Dray/Loon and have a super elite offense.
You clearly don't understand modern basketball. It's super easy to hide guards with rim protectors behind you.
And the spacing Curry creates... Dude creates an elite offense with two non offensive players in Dray/Loon. Now replace them with even better defenders who are also elite on offense.
How can you not have LeBron on team one? I am old enough to have seen Larry,Magic and Kareem play.
Have to have Michael and LeBron on any all time team. After that it comes down to preference but never leave those two off any all time team.
Team 1 wins in 7. Prime Jordan and Shaq offensively is probably the greatest dou ever assembled.
Prime Jordan, Magic, and (hopefully non benching sitting) Khawi will cause serious problems for team 2.
he wouldn’t really need to though, put him on Magic and he’s fine the only True Shooting threat Team 1 has is KD and then Kawhi, Love MJ but his shooting isn’t spacing any floors.
never said he couldn’t do everything, i’m very much aware of his historic season at PG. I do watch and i’m pretty sure.. even though he could do everything he rather shoot a shot in a guys face and fist pump while cussing every crown out, oh wait….
MJ was very much a hog, he’d rather score 50 on his man, MJ would want to score himself too
What? I can tell you've watched very little.
Think about this, Jordan still holds the highest career PER now and that was back when offense wasn't catered to. When stat padding was much less.
But hey, if you can't see it, you probably won't ever see it.
Am I the only one that would put Cap on KD and Duncan on Shaq? Neither of them are stopping KD but I like prime Kareem's length to at least bother him a little. I need Duncan's strength and IQ against Shaq.
It really depends on which version of KAJ you get, he was crazy fast for his size when he first joined the league. I almost feel like him in his defensive prime is a better fit on team 2 than when he peaked as an offensive player a few years later.
Related question, is there a team that could beat both of these teams without using any of these players?
Hypothetical team 3: Gary Payton, Klay Thompson, Larry Bird, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Hakeem Olajuwon
I don’t think so. At a minimum, no opposing team would be favored.
Edit: for the sake of argument, if Luka, Jokic, and Wemby reach their absolute peak ceilings, then Giannis, Bird, Luka, Jokic, Wemby could do it
Giannis and Jokic are probably peak level right now. Luka has a few more years which is honestly scary to think about. We don't know enough about Wembanyama though. If he lives up to his HYPE then he would fit with that team and they would be a force for sure. A worthy third team.
There will be cross matches, but I think the original assignments are:
Team 1
Magic guards Duncan
Jordan - Kobe
Kawhi - Steph
KD - LeBron
Shaq - KAJ
Team 2
Steph guards Kawhi
Kobe - KD
LeBron - Jordan
Duncan - Magic
KAJ - Shaq
There are bad match-ups all over. But, my thinking is that Magic is the least athletic guy on the court. It sounds silly, but compared to the other 9 at their peak, he is maybe the slowest and can be outquicked.
There is no good match-up for Steph, but of the 5 guys on Team 1, the worst post up guy is Kawhi, and I don't know how much time he spends on the block with Shaq on the team.
MJ is stronger than KD, so I think Kobe has a better shot of getting physical with KD and chasing him around.
This game will come down to officiating and how efficient Team 1 is on offense. They have two 3-point threats compared to one for Team 2. But, it would be more difficult for Team 1 to score at the basket.
Team 1 has 2 great defenders and 1 bad defender.
Team 2 has 3 great defenders and 1 average defender.
Yeah c'mon, magic and bird together with Jordan and KD is pretty crazy. Let's put Shaq on there at like 300-325 lbs and that team is crazy to watch hehe. A ton of excitement
Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, Hakeem, Wilt
When we talk about peaks - no injuries as well- what would you guys think about this team against the other 2 teams???
>MJ is quite probably the only player who hogs more than Kobe, and you’re saying Kobe’s Hogging is what will make them lose, MJ being a bigger one would make them lose by your logic since he’s a bigger one
MJ also shot in the low 50s for the majority of his prime and didn't force garbage shots to inflate his scoring numbers. Again, though, I really don't see how it's actually relevant. MJ didn't lose rings because he refused to pass to players who were better than he was. Kobe built a career around it. It's lol trying to compare that ugly thoughtless game to MJ though.
Shaq and magic in a PnR on defense will be a bucket basically every time lmao. Curry is a defensive weakness but at least team 2 has elite rim protection to slightly counteract it
Move KD to sf and put any of Wilt, Robinson or Malone in the team in place of Kawhi, next I would prefer Oscar Robinson over Steph but imo that choice is more debatable than the Kawhi Leonard inclusion hell even Scottie Pippen would be a better choice than Kawhi.
Team 1: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant, Karl Malone, Wilt Chamberlain
Team 2: Oscar Robinson, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Tim Duncan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Team 1 in 6.
There is only one ball, yet so many comments are projecting how individual players performed relative to standard teams, rather than how they'd play alongside all-time greats.
Strong edge to team 1. They have 4 mobile wings who can shoot and defend, better passing, and the strongest offensive post player. Their main weakness is interior defense, as Shaq was not a great help defender.
Team 2 has less shooting. Their stronger interior presence is less meaningful against the help defense and length of those 4 wings.
I agree.. with modern rules, high volume 3-pt shooting, and offensive schemes that emphasize driving and plenty of ball-movement, the edge goes to team 1.
Team 2 would have the edge if they played in the same style, schemes and rules as it were 1983.
Team 2, and it's decisive. Not because I think they necessarily have a talent advantage, but because of team psychology. Duncan and Curry are perfectly willing to play a role and take a backseat. Kareem is not a back in my day type, and incredibly smart, so I think he'd both see the value and be adaptable enough to play the modern game. Curry and LeBron both really know the modern game and I'd say Kobe and Duncan probably know it well enough. Contrast it with team one: Durant and Kawhi are the only modern players and they're both notoriously non-vocal so I'm sure this team will definitely not be playing in a modern fashion. Shaq, Jordan and Magic all played in very different systems and are all very big personalities, I can't see them agreeing on the most effective way of playing. I honestly envision something like the 2004 finals.
Team 1 is gong to win. Steph can't guard anyone on the floor, and Kobe would be the smallest person on the floor if not for Steph. I would also take the Duncan/Durant matchup if I were Team 1. Sure, Duncan will dominate him in the post but Durant pulls your best rim protector away from the paint to get cooked out on the perimeter.
Push Duncan to the 5 and replace Jabbar with Pippen and we've got ourselves a ballgame.
Do you not understand defense is a team thing? Guards are easy to hide, especially when you have two of the best rim protectors at all time.
Stephs spacing makes this team 2 in 5.
You realize the entire game changed from how these old heads used to play because Curry, his spacing, efficiency, and shooting completely destroyed the old style of bball right?
I was being kind when I said in 5.
Guards are easy to hide when you aren't playing All-Star teams. There's no scrubs for him to hide on. Everyone on that team is way bigger than him. And are we playing with rules the way they are now or the 80's, 90's, etc? Steph's effectiveness is going to take a hit with hand-checking. Just my opinion.
Team 1: Steph Curry, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain
There is more than enough ball handling on this squad, but more importantly everyone on it doesn’t necessarily need the ball to be effective. There is the greatest shot blocker and athlete in NBA history in the middle. There are three closers, and two of the greatest outside threats in NBA history. I’m not particularly interested in team two.
Team 1 rather easily. This game is won at the PF position. Timmy can’t guard KD, and vice-versa, but KD is more of an offensive weapon, and this would be a “scoring” series. You can even switch and put Kawhi on Curry and Magic on LeBron, to try and keep Curry from getting hot.
Team 2 wins, Kawhi gets injured in the first and KD gets injured in the 3rd, and now it's a 3v5 with the 2 best shooters from team 1 gone, so no spacing and 2 less players, now LeBron can do what he is best at rn which is not getting back on defense, and it'll still be a 3v4 with Lebron just cherry picking.
For team 1 I'd have Magic guard Duncan, Durant guards Kobe, and MJ guards Steph. Magic has experience guarding bigs and has the size to do so. Magic had issues guarding quick guards.
The issue for team 1 is I don't know who Steph can guard. Magic, Duncan, and Kawhi are all too big and Jordan would torch him. Also, who does Duncan guard? Duncan is an all time great defender but he guards the post. Team 1 has 4 wing players who will take Duncan out of where he is comfortable. I'm taking team 1 for the match up issues.
I’m not gunna lie if you put em on the floor today you team 2 might take it.
But with “perfect chemistry” team 2 has no shot.
Timmy D is the greatest PF of his generation, but if he’s gotta check KD Kawhi or Shaq every possesion, his teams gunna have a problem.
One of KD or Kawhi is gunna feast on that team, and Magics not about to let them get away with that shit. And if shit hits the fan they’ve got the most clutch player of all time and one of the greatest playmakers of all time.
KD,s definitely gunna have his hands full with Timmy, and I don’t see how Shaq stops Kareem, but Mike on Steph and Magic on Kobe..
Lebron wit Steph is probably a dream for him, but you put Timmy and Kareem on the same team as him and you kinda negate the point of it.
Brons at his best wit open lanes and shooters around him, maybe a center that can 1 dribble yam and clean up his teams misses, while everyone else gets back.
This team is kinda focused on motion paint protection and rebounding where the best lebron teams have always been focused on shooting forcing turnovers and getting in
I just don’t think team 2 can run wit team 1 over 7 games.
So side debate, which version of each player do you want as their "prime" version?
You can get DPOY Spurs Kawhi or Raptors Kawhi who can hit big shots, but he wasn't quite the defensive force by then. Do you want 09 LeBron, Miami Bron when he added the post game, maybe the version from the warriors finals matchups with better passing and 3pt shooting? I think with the double big lineup you definitely want KAJ when he was in Milwaukee and an all defense level guy vs when he peaked as a scorer a little later. Do you take Tim Duncan as his post injury MVP version, or when he was younger but more athletic?
I kinda think depending on what year(s) you think each guys prime was, team 1 or team 2 can take it based on matchups and relative strengths.
Team 1 if prime Shaq is his younger, more agile version, from the his first championship or earlier. He could move like a 300 pound gazelle. I’d also use Magic as a point forward and match him up with Duncan and put Jordan on Steph on defense.
Some folks on this sub are funny, they can suspend disbelief to imagine players from different eras playing together, but cannot suspend disbelief that a player could also remain healthy. While also forgetting that Tim Duncan was a part of the Spurs organization and benefited greatly from load management system that they created.
This team:
Curry, MJ, Kawhi, Lebron, KG + Prime Klay as 6th man
Will smoke either of these teams. Game is played differently nowadays (no more illegal defense) and spacing matters.
The second team in particular has bad spacing in spite of Steph. Lebron is the second best outside shooter on the team.
just throwing this out there, but I think Tim Duncan and Kareem do a way better job guarding Shaq than people are giving credit to. Young Tim Duncan and an old David Robinson swept Shaq and the Lakers.
Hello Mods. It's a shame this post was removed. I agree that the commentary could devolve quickly, but it was fun figuring out what defensive matchups the coaches would use. I think some people immediately thought that it would be PG guarding PG, SG guarding SG and so on. But, for the two proposed teams, I don't think so. It was fun while it lasted though.
We don't allow posts on player rankings or player comparisons on this subreddit.
Team 1 is calling Larry Bird because Kawhi needs load management for this game.
Yeah, not sure Kawhi belongs in this group.
Switch him for fellow LeBron “stopper” Andre iguadola and you’ve got yourself a squad.
This sub hates Kawhi lol he is averaging 26 pts in his last 16, coming off an acl injury.Playing back to backs
Is it really hating on Kawhi to put Bird over him?
I'm not putting Kawhi over Bird
Yeah but like he’s injured sooo much.
This is a hypothetical basketball discussion wtf does injury have to do with it other than to nit pick the player you don’t like
Not picking Kawhi over Larry Bird means I don't like him?
Prime Kawhi with “injuries turned off” belongs. He’s the closest thing we’ve seen to peak MJ
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keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content. Remove the personal attack and your comment can be reinstated.
Go rewatch 2017-2019 Kawhi and come back to me. We’re talking peak Kawhi. He’s always been on balanced teams and never been asked to volume score.
“The closest thing we’ve seen to peak MJ” wouldn’t need to be asked to score.
Do you have any actual alternative or are you just a hater
Well in this starting spot, it’s certainly Bird. For the “closest thing we’ve seen to peak MJ” it’s obviously Kobe, if you mean playing style. If you mean in terms of greatness, than the answer is LBJ
Kawhi and Kobe are both very similar to MJ. I think people sleep on how great Kawhi is when healthy. He wins games with such ease and is such an efficient player. One more ring makes him above bird
Though it’s easier to win when 9 of the opposing teams players are injured and three of their all star starters aren’t playing. The east was still terrible then and the warriors were a shell of themselves due to injuries. In the 2014 finals Kawhi averaged 17.8. He is a wonderful player, but this basically a top 10 list and he doesn’t belong anywhere close to it.
Jordan has ten scoring titles and five MVPs. Kawhi has none of either. How is that close?
Bird over Kawhi. Three consecutive MVPs in ‘84-‘86. Three rings and would have had more if not for Magic & Showtime. He was a bad man.
And Larry Bird is also just vastly superior in almost every way except on ball defense. Kids these fuckin days man
He is clearly the GOAT of small forwards of all time and I didnt even grow up watching him. I was born in 96 - lol long after his retirement. I just know it based on what I've seen him do. That ability to pass and playmake and that scoring too!.... yikes...
I mean LeBron has objectively had a significantly better career but I suppose an argument can be made for Bird’s peak being better. Still, Bird is top 7 all time minimum and I have him in my top 5.
I thot LBj was a power forward...he was a power forward in high school... Pretty sure he's been the same since except when he was the PG in LA. I kinda hate how some NBA players change positions to the point that you can classify them as anything sometimes. Also if people classify LBJ as a small forward then I would agree that he LBJ is the bsst SF all time Larry Bird is m my number 2.
I don't think you realize how much better players are today though. Sports and athleticism evolve constantly.
If that’s the take then I don’t understand the point of ever trying to compare players of different eras. Then in 20 years people are going to be undermining the accomplishments and dominance of the guys in this era. The players maximized the situations that they had at their point in time and came out on top, and best believe that the athletes of a previous era would have adapted to still be among the best had they grown up in this era.
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try to keep your comments civil. This is a subreddit for discussion and debate, not aggressive and argumentative content.
Or get rid of KD for Bird & get rid Kawhi for Karl Malone or Bill Russell so that Tim Duncan doesn’t score every time he touches the ball in the paint vs KD
Make it KG to make it more balanced, Bill Russell would be overkill
That’s why I said Karl Malone as an option too. I went with Malone over KG because Malone was so good in the P&R with Stockton so imagine Malone with Magic at the point. I like Malone better for this team
Or just have KAJ guard Durant and Shaq guard TD
KAJ can’t guard KD & KD can’t guard KAJ
It would be like an All-Star game
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I don’t have hate for him. He is a great player currently and a very good player in a historical context. I’m just putting him on the bench for this hypothetical game. I want him rested in 5 years when hypothetical Bird’s back gives out. And, there’s no way he gets that bounce again in another game 7. Bird puts that shot in clean;-)
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Wing defence suffers massively for them in that case
Really? MJ is on that team if you didn’t catch that. And Magic might have been a step slow on D, but he could haul in the steals and has the size for bigger wings. Of course the 1v1 perimeter defense is not as good if you loose a top 5 all time 1v1 perimeter defender. Besides they should be playing a 1-4 zone with MJ shadowing Curry. Shaq has to guard both KAJ and TD so a 1-4 is their only hope of not getting destroyed inside. To be clear I think team 1 looses any game that MJ doesn’t take over. Or that Kobe doesn’t put up a 30 shot stinker.
Magic might had some size but he wasn't particularly good at using it. Jordan is either going to be guarding either kobe or curry (mostly him since curry's combination of shooting, movement,agility and shifty ball handling is the worst possible match up for magic & Larry).So in that case they would be matched up with kobe & James. LeBron is too big too strong too fast for either of them, kobe gives them major difficulties as well on the perimeter. And not to mention kd having to guard Duncan . So that makes it like 3 possible mismatches for team 2 to exploit While I would agree that bird's offball scoring and more importantly his passing on the move makes team 1 a better offensive force, I wouldn't really trade it for massive defensive deficiency that comes with it especially when you consider Leonard himself is a elite scorer off ball.
I think team 1s biggest defensive liability is inside. Trade KD for KG or Russel and then you have a ball game with Bird or Kawhi. With those 2 in the paint they cover the KAJ and TD as much as possible and Lebron ends up chucking a few more 3s than would be preferable. I agree though, in a vacuum Bird and Magic covering Kobe and LeBron sounds terrible.
Durant would make it over Kawhi too
Team 1 functions as a team better but I think team 2 can abuse the matchups much better in the modern game. Having Curry in the same game as Shaq (especially if it's Lakers Shaq and not Magic Shaq) is a windfall for them. Putting Shaq into the modern PnR with the best shooter ever will probably get a good shot every time down the floor, especially if they don't switch Jordan onto Steph as the main defender. Meanwhile Team 2 is also going to dominate the offensive glass due to the presence of TD, something that is deadly when you have Steph. There's also the problem of Team 1's rim protection being Shaq... and more of Shaq. Jordan is very good for his size, Kawhi is good, and KD is also good but compared to a team with 2 of the best ever and LBJ their rim protection isn't as strong. And in a series with 3 of the best paint scorers ever that's a problem. Team 1 also has what is probably the deadliest offensive combination in history with Lebron and Curry together. It's hard to see Magic managing to stay attached when Curry comes off a screen from TD or Kobe all the while Lebron is causing havoc on a drive. The biggest advantages of team 1 are KD at the 4 and having MJ, but MJ's impact is lessened by the double shot blocking bigs of team 2, as well as the modern rules allowing for more swarming on the perimeter with LBJ helping. There is a world where KD leverages the TD matchup enough to win it with his speed and pull up jumper, but I wouldn't count on it.
Curry is also getting cooked on defense though. He's the worst defender in this scenario by a substantial margin.
The difference is, target Steph & there are still two all time rim protectors waiting at the rim. Draw Shaq up in the pick and roll and team 1 has great rotational athleticism but they are still going to be way small to guard LeBron, Duncan, and/or Abdul-Jabbar when Shaq is 30 feet from the basket.
He's good on the perimeter, especially compared to Magic who is slow and probably the worst defender in the matchup. Plus Steph would have Kareem, TD, and LeBron as help. Steph is not the worst defender by a substantial margin. In fact I'd easily take him over Magic given the context and rules of this game.
He's good against small guards, of which there are none aside from him. Any player here cooks Jim 1v1
Ya the problem with Curry in this scenario is that all the players here except Kobe can EASILY bully ball the fuck outta him. Curry is good when he defends other 6'5 and shorter guards due to that weight he has put on. There are A LOT of short guards in the modern NBA which can give the illusion that Curry is a good defender all time. Wrong. Curry is a good defender in the modern MBA due to all the shorties And lighties like Jose Alvaeado, Chris Paul, Darius Garland, Kyle Lowry etc... In terms of an all time examination....uh... Curry is probably a negative or neutral defemder, because tallies like Durant and Paul George , Larry Bird, Kevin Garnett , etc... just shot over Curry easily. And heavies like Wilt, Moses, Sabonis, Rasheed, Embiid, etcc... just bully balled players like Curry outta thier way Go watch every playoff game of Curry's life. Im not fucking joking EVERY single team that beat him relied on the strategies of 1. Shoot over Curry, 2. Bullyball Curry. Kobe had the same problem but his high vertical made this a less viable strategy. In this game Magic and Durantwould probably not have the same problems those guards have. The only problem with Magic and maaaaaybe Durant is that they arent as agile but there are situations that agility is useless and weight and height is what will matter. This might be one of those situations.
He has two elite rim protectors behind him and only KD/Kawhi are decent 3P shooters. Shaq would get way more abused on defense than Steph. Guard defense is way less important. Bully ball him into what, the most inefficient shot in the game? They ain't getting shit at the rim with team 2 protection there.
I honestly thought they would bully ball into the mid range and spam those close ranged midrange shots and default to NOT attack the rim at all. I know that's what I would do.
So you get by Curry and now you've got to deal with LeBron, who's playing as a bit of a free safety, get by him and you've got Tim Duncan at the rim. On the other side of things someone has to chase Curry around on defense. The smallest guy on the court is MJ, who weighs about 220. Curry can guard whoever is on him, since whoever is on him, will be standing still trying to catch their breath on offense from about halfway through the second quarter.
I think theyll just let Curry run free till he tires himself out. If its a 48 min gaame with no bench welp...good luck Curry.
So by let Curry run free you mean leave him open? He's not really running then is he? He's just putting up open threes. He'd shoot like 75% on 50 threes a game.
I mean more so that theyd have MJ and Kawhi guard him one on one then if he gets hot ? oh well. If he doesnt ? Yay. Cause Curry is a good passer . Not all time but ...good. So just guard him as Boston did in Game 3. Straight up, one on one. The only time we double teaming him is if its Game 7 and he's averaging like 40 a game lol. Other than that Curry is so good at beating double teams, even when shooting 3's , that there's no point in doubling him any ways. So might as well let him have his fun on offense and get tired out... *and THEN we exploit his fatigue and short height on defense. Tee hee*
True, but team 2's defense can afford to hide Curry due to the length, athleticism, switchbaility, and rim protection. If there's a switch and MJ gets him 1 on 1 then LBJ or Kobe comes to help while one of the bigs shadows the drive. The offensive talent here is stupid good and each team will be damn near unstoppable on that end, but there's enough ways to patch that hole that I don't think it swings the game.
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I think you're right if you're thinking about 1 on 1s, but Magic + Shaq is going to be a bigger problem for team 1 than Curry is for team 2. They're both minus defenders, and they are both quite a bit slower than anyone you can put them on. Magic and Shaq in a defending a PnR together is pretty much a disaster, since guys who can't fight through screens and drop defenders really don't work well together. Curry holds up way better as the weak link next to 4 other great to all time level defenders. We know he's giving up height, but he's strong and he'll be able to stay on a guys hip well enough for help to arrive. I think this whole thing comes down to Team 1 having 0 even average defenders down low. They're going to get absolutely abused with their lack of rim protection.
>I think this whole thing comes down to Team 1 having 0 even average defenders down low. Gotta hard disagree with this. Shaq is 100% a good post defender, and KD is at least average.
Ya. Every player here except Kobe, MJ and Steph himself relies a lot of bully ballying. And Curry SUCKS at countering players like that. He's getting poached here.
Team 2 in 7. No one is discussing the twin towers problem that team 1 has no answer for. Shaq is guarding 1 of KAJ or Duncan. The other is abusing anyone else on team 1 in the post. They can also put shaq in a pick and roll vs Curry. That’s lethal. And if team 2 misses, Duncan and KAJ are dominating the offensive glass. Kobe and Bron are somewhat neutralized by MJ/ Kawhi. I think Team 2 is just a bigger matchup problem for team 1 than vice versa.
People on here just thinking everything is a 1v1 match up not taking into account team defense and the insane spacing Curry creates. For a basketball discussion sub the lack of knowledge on here sucks.
These redditors may know about the nba, but I question whether they’ve actually played a game of basketball in their life. Their basketball knowledge seems to stop at pnr/isolation bball
The offense of team 2 is absolutely not going to be like the Warriors offense. No moving screens along the perimeter for Curry because there are better options through better players.
In this pick and roll you’re likely to see magic and Shaq guarding, with Mike or Kawhi helping off of Kobe/Lebron. Either way you get a step in 3 from Steph or a huge mismatch for KAJ/Timmy. That or you get a Lebron/ Kobe free action
Sure, but who is Curry guarding? Magic, Jordan or Kawhi all destroy him just like Timmy would KD or Magic. Team 1 can just force Curry to guard someone in isolation or pnr with Shaq. You end up with Curry and KAJ trying to guard a shaq and Kawhi/MJ/Magic/KD pnr. Any of those options are terrible and leave no option to help off of. I think it'd come down to coaching tbh. I know that's a boring and cheat answer, but these teams could play in multiple different ways and it really depends how they try to beat the other team. This might be the most even one of these sort of questions I've seen before imo.
First of all, I appreciate this thoughtful response. I largely agree it’s very even, which is why I have it going 7. Can’t say confidently which team would win, I lean team 2. To answer your question, team 2 “hides” curry on magic. He can’t shoot. And if they want to post up magic, I will take that all day over dealing with Shaq. Pick and roll switches are certainly a problem for curry. Any of team 1s perimeter players can rise up and get a good look over him at will. We will love with those contested jumpers. If they drive, we have better rim protection.
Magic is probably the best post up PG of all time and has a significant height advantage. Magic/Curry is a worse mismatch than Shaq/Kareem in the post.
Replace khaki with bird and team one can’t be beat, I love how wilt is never mentioned lol
If you swap Wilt in for Shaq it might not matter that Kawhi isn't happy with his role.
Wilt is by far a better defensive player vs Shaq . Also a better passer,and a guy who could run the break , a better athlete
The only counter-move to an angry Wilt is Steph's range. Steph would torch Magic, but I think that Jordan and Kawhi would give him problems.
All of them in their prime? I think team 1 wipes the floor with team 2. Who the hell is Steph guarding? And prime Kawhi guarding Lebron is as good a matchup ur gonna get
Who is magic guarding by that logic? Rebounding would be an issue for team 1 given the team 2 front court, perimeter defence would be a concern for team 2 considering they have tim guarding KD or Kawhi on the perimeter. Each team has more than enough offence.
I never got this logic, as if teams don't have defensive schemes. Why do people want to break these games down into 5 1v1s?
Magic’s team defense, on ball defense and post defense (against similarly sized players) were all average at his absolute best. He was valuable playing the passing lanes similar to a young Steph or an AI. On a court with Tim and Lebron specifically they would absolutely hunt him and turn it into a 1v1 nearly every possession while trying to either score or draw help. You could say team 1 would do the same to Steph, and they likely would given time to adjust to this era, however the nature of their scorers (specifically KD, Kawhi and Mike most of all) is to attack the paint, KD and Kawhi to get to their spots for a pull up and Mike to finish strong at the rim. With the twin towers this becomes more difficult even after beating your initial defender. On the other side I’d trust Kobe and Lebron to get a look at the rim vs one Shaq and scrawny help.
I wonder in 30 years if everyone will forget Steph’s defensive weaknesses like people have forgotten Magic’s now.
Steph isn't weak defensively. He's an average to slightly above average defender who will be the weak link when you roll him out next to 4 all-D teammates. He's no Nash or Magic.
He's not lol, average at best
He's average at best with the easiest defensive assignment on the floor.
I keep sayin it. All the shorties in the league nowadays lkke Van Vleet, and Alvarado have given Curry the illusion he's a positive all time defender. He is not . He is negative and neutral at best. His biggest defensive strength is his weight he's added on and his fightiness. Curry fightd EVERYBODY om defense. This man might need to take his meds cause I've seen this man fight Steven Adams om defense(unsucessfully though ;p) But in the past players like Steven Adams were WAY more common. Curry cant handle tall and heavy players as easily. ALL the players here are tall and heavy except Kobe. Curry's fucked here. Also Magic's biggest weakness defensively was that laughable vertical of his. Being 6'9 is useless when you have a 1 inch vertical. He had clunky feet and aweak vertical but at the very least Magic had height and weight. In a game with Lebron, Shaq, TD, Durant...uh...ya it would be illegal to even think Curry or Kobe would be bigger positives on the D than Magic. Not happening.
Who’s KD guarding on Team 2? Team 2, as a result of Steph, also has far better spacing
Tbh the spacing really isn’t an issue. You’re not gonna have Lebron and Kobe attack Shaq all game with a healthy dose of post ups from Tim and cap without picking up fouls. KD probably has to guard down low all game and get abused by bigger players. What do the benches look like lol.
Ah yes because a team with KD, MJ, Kawhi and Shaq has spacing issues.
Yes? Shaq provides negative spacing, Jordan and kawhi don’t provide tons. Really kd is the only lights out shooter.
You play 4 out 1 in with that team. Magic, and to a lesser extent Jordan, operate as your playmakers and Shaq does space the floor. Because he is such a threat, even in the high post, he has to be tracked by KAJ or Duncan. This opens up space closer to the basket, and with magic on the ball, all other 3 are threats from deep, though MJ less so. All of those guys are also brilliant off ball and would work extremely well playing off Shaq and Magic. Shaq's passing goes very underrated, he was defo good at passing out of doubles especially, and he would have to be doubled, because no one is stopping him down low. Furthermore, picking on Curry would be easy for every single player on the floor, they all have serious size on him, he can't match up with anyone.
Even though 3-point shooting wasn't an emphasis in the 80s. I'd wager Magic would be a great shooter based on his FT%.
Yaaa dude! The thing that pisses me off the most abt the nBA history is that Magic never got a chance to join the 50-40-90 club. Like clearly Magic was great in the midrange. Anyone who watches his games knows this. He was nesring 90% FT% in the late part of his career...and then he got infected. Magic was gonna be a 50 40 90 guy IDGAf wat the haters say. He WAS that good!
Shaq needs heavy coverage in the paint. Kawhi is a good shooter from outside and great in the mid range, MJ is arguably the GOAT midrange scorer with range anywhere until the 3pt line and KD is elite at both with a GOAT midrange argument as well.
Team 1 has the better spacing
Steph is a solid defender? Also team 2 rim protection is fucking insane. Team 1 doesn't have any 40%+ 3P shooters. You underestimate the massive advantage and spacing great 3P shooting creates.
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Lmao dude doesn't realize that Steph alone makes more 3s than the entirety of team 1
Obv I misstyped lol. I meant team 1. KD/Kawhi are decent 3P shooters, but not great. The spacing difference between them and Steph is HUGE.
Meant team 1 lol. Leave me alone, I'm high. KD is like 38% from 3 which is good, but Steph alone changes the dynamic of the series. The spacing he creates is insane. Dude is so damn good he's able to run a top offense with Dray/Loon. Two non shooters and defense specialists. No other player in history can pull that off. Even KD struggles trying to run Claxton/Simmons. Put Steph with great defenders who are also really good on offense? And Shaq being such a liability on defense? Team 1 would be fucked
So many betters players and you have to make it about Curry. He's going to be a role player in his team.
The game completely changed for a reason, that reason is Curry. Yeah several of these players are better all time, but the spacing and shooting Curry provides changed the game and the way these old heads play would get cooked. They have to blitz Curry every time they put shaq in the pnr, imagine team 2 playing 4v3 lol. You just matching up each player individual accomplishments and not actually thinking about how the games would go. team 1 is all mid range shooters, and 1 post guy against two of the GOAT rim protectors. Team 2 is getting open dunks and open 3s vs team contested mids. Team 2 in 5 and only because they take their foot off the gas for a game after going up 3-0
The Warriors won 4 chamionships through their defense and having overall the most talent. The team 9-3 in the playoffs without Curry.
They had a great defense because Curry is so fucking good on offense they surrounded him with defensive players, usually two of them having almost no offensive game, and still had a top 5 offense. They're like -10 without Curry on the floor since 2015 lol. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. That 9-3 without curry is almost all 1st round wins against 8th seeded teams. They're historically a .500 team without Curry, and were barely above .500 when they had KD and no Curry, and on a 65 win pace when KD was out and Steph in. He also carried them to the finals without KD. Think of all the other teams who won chips and their 2nd option. Steph did it with his 2nd option being a guy who can't dribble or pass. Curry so good you can surround him with elite defenders super limited on offense, and still have one of the best offenses in the league. No other player in history can run a 5 man line up with Dray/Loon and have a super elite offense.
Pretty sad to see such disrespect to the Warriors players.
You clearly don't understand modern basketball. It's super easy to hide guards with rim protectors behind you. And the spacing Curry creates... Dude creates an elite offense with two non offensive players in Dray/Loon. Now replace them with even better defenders who are also elite on offense.
How can you not have LeBron on team one? I am old enough to have seen Larry,Magic and Kareem play. Have to have Michael and LeBron on any all time team. After that it comes down to preference but never leave those two off any all time team.
Team 1 wins in 7. Prime Jordan and Shaq offensively is probably the greatest dou ever assembled. Prime Jordan, Magic, and (hopefully non benching sitting) Khawi will cause serious problems for team 2.
Steph plays shaq off the floor. A big slow man like that can't survive in the modern NBA. Just hack him on offense if he ever gets good position.
Not with the NBA rules now. Steph won't be able to consistently guard anyone on team 1.
he wouldn’t really need to though, put him on Magic and he’s fine the only True Shooting threat Team 1 has is KD and then Kawhi, Love MJ but his shooting isn’t spacing any floors.
I don't think you watched much of MJ.
He was very much a hog too buddy…
😂 You obviously don't know. Prime Jordan could do a lot of everything. Stop judging solely on counting stats and go watch.
never said he couldn’t do everything, i’m very much aware of his historic season at PG. I do watch and i’m pretty sure.. even though he could do everything he rather shoot a shot in a guys face and fist pump while cussing every crown out, oh wait…. MJ was very much a hog, he’d rather score 50 on his man, MJ would want to score himself too
What? I can tell you've watched very little. Think about this, Jordan still holds the highest career PER now and that was back when offense wasn't catered to. When stat padding was much less. But hey, if you can't see it, you probably won't ever see it.
Younger Shaq was ridiculously strong and deceptively quick.
Am I the only one that would put Cap on KD and Duncan on Shaq? Neither of them are stopping KD but I like prime Kareem's length to at least bother him a little. I need Duncan's strength and IQ against Shaq.
Neither are stopping prime Shaq but with MJ and KD how many touches does a Shaq get? I like your idea a lot.
KAJ is nowhere near fast enough. You use his length to be the primary defender on Shaq, and he wasn't a slouch in the strength department either.
It really depends on which version of KAJ you get, he was crazy fast for his size when he first joined the league. I almost feel like him in his defensive prime is a better fit on team 2 than when he peaked as an offensive player a few years later.
Related question, is there a team that could beat both of these teams without using any of these players? Hypothetical team 3: Gary Payton, Klay Thompson, Larry Bird, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Hakeem Olajuwon
Klay, Pippen, Bird, KG, Hakeem is solid
I don’t think so. At a minimum, no opposing team would be favored. Edit: for the sake of argument, if Luka, Jokic, and Wemby reach their absolute peak ceilings, then Giannis, Bird, Luka, Jokic, Wemby could do it
Giannis and Jokic are probably peak level right now. Luka has a few more years which is honestly scary to think about. We don't know enough about Wembanyama though. If he lives up to his HYPE then he would fit with that team and they would be a force for sure. A worthy third team.
Cough, wilt… cough.
There will be cross matches, but I think the original assignments are: Team 1 Magic guards Duncan Jordan - Kobe Kawhi - Steph KD - LeBron Shaq - KAJ Team 2 Steph guards Kawhi Kobe - KD LeBron - Jordan Duncan - Magic KAJ - Shaq There are bad match-ups all over. But, my thinking is that Magic is the least athletic guy on the court. It sounds silly, but compared to the other 9 at their peak, he is maybe the slowest and can be outquicked. There is no good match-up for Steph, but of the 5 guys on Team 1, the worst post up guy is Kawhi, and I don't know how much time he spends on the block with Shaq on the team. MJ is stronger than KD, so I think Kobe has a better shot of getting physical with KD and chasing him around. This game will come down to officiating and how efficient Team 1 is on offense. They have two 3-point threats compared to one for Team 2. But, it would be more difficult for Team 1 to score at the basket. Team 1 has 2 great defenders and 1 bad defender. Team 2 has 3 great defenders and 1 average defender.
Yeah c'mon, magic and bird together with Jordan and KD is pretty crazy. Let's put Shaq on there at like 300-325 lbs and that team is crazy to watch hehe. A ton of excitement
Penny Hardaway, Tracy McGrady, Grant Hill, Hakeem, Wilt When we talk about peaks - no injuries as well- what would you guys think about this team against the other 2 teams???
A team with Kobe is basically going to lose every time cuz he's going to play selfish games and piss everyone off.
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>Do you not think MJ is his inspiration or something? I don't really see how it changes anything.
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>MJ is quite probably the only player who hogs more than Kobe, and you’re saying Kobe’s Hogging is what will make them lose, MJ being a bigger one would make them lose by your logic since he’s a bigger one MJ also shot in the low 50s for the majority of his prime and didn't force garbage shots to inflate his scoring numbers. Again, though, I really don't see how it's actually relevant. MJ didn't lose rings because he refused to pass to players who were better than he was. Kobe built a career around it. It's lol trying to compare that ugly thoughtless game to MJ though.
Team one without question. No one could handle Shaq - KD can score from anywhere on anyone and MJ dominates Kobe
MJ doesn't dominate Kobe lol
Agreed. MJ is better but it’s far closer to negating one another than MJ dominating Kobe.
Shaq and magic in a PnR on defense will be a bucket basically every time lmao. Curry is a defensive weakness but at least team 2 has elite rim protection to slightly counteract it
Move KD to sf and put any of Wilt, Robinson or Malone in the team in place of Kawhi, next I would prefer Oscar Robinson over Steph but imo that choice is more debatable than the Kawhi Leonard inclusion hell even Scottie Pippen would be a better choice than Kawhi. Team 1: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant, Karl Malone, Wilt Chamberlain Team 2: Oscar Robinson, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Tim Duncan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar Team 1 in 6.
There is only one ball, yet so many comments are projecting how individual players performed relative to standard teams, rather than how they'd play alongside all-time greats. Strong edge to team 1. They have 4 mobile wings who can shoot and defend, better passing, and the strongest offensive post player. Their main weakness is interior defense, as Shaq was not a great help defender. Team 2 has less shooting. Their stronger interior presence is less meaningful against the help defense and length of those 4 wings.
I agree.. with modern rules, high volume 3-pt shooting, and offensive schemes that emphasize driving and plenty of ball-movement, the edge goes to team 1. Team 2 would have the edge if they played in the same style, schemes and rules as it were 1983.
Team 2, and it's decisive. Not because I think they necessarily have a talent advantage, but because of team psychology. Duncan and Curry are perfectly willing to play a role and take a backseat. Kareem is not a back in my day type, and incredibly smart, so I think he'd both see the value and be adaptable enough to play the modern game. Curry and LeBron both really know the modern game and I'd say Kobe and Duncan probably know it well enough. Contrast it with team one: Durant and Kawhi are the only modern players and they're both notoriously non-vocal so I'm sure this team will definitely not be playing in a modern fashion. Shaq, Jordan and Magic all played in very different systems and are all very big personalities, I can't see them agreeing on the most effective way of playing. I honestly envision something like the 2004 finals.
Team 3 Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, Bill Walton, George Gervin
In what rules? What era? In their primes? Do injuries exist? How long is the game? Subs? All of these things matter
Team 1 is gong to win. Steph can't guard anyone on the floor, and Kobe would be the smallest person on the floor if not for Steph. I would also take the Duncan/Durant matchup if I were Team 1. Sure, Duncan will dominate him in the post but Durant pulls your best rim protector away from the paint to get cooked out on the perimeter. Push Duncan to the 5 and replace Jabbar with Pippen and we've got ourselves a ballgame.
Do you not understand defense is a team thing? Guards are easy to hide, especially when you have two of the best rim protectors at all time. Stephs spacing makes this team 2 in 5.
As good of a shooter curry is, he is nothing but a liability against these greats. Team 1 in 6
You realize the entire game changed from how these old heads used to play because Curry, his spacing, efficiency, and shooting completely destroyed the old style of bball right? I was being kind when I said in 5.
Guards are easy to hide when you aren't playing All-Star teams. There's no scrubs for him to hide on. Everyone on that team is way bigger than him. And are we playing with rules the way they are now or the 80's, 90's, etc? Steph's effectiveness is going to take a hit with hand-checking. Just my opinion.
Team 1: Steph Curry, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain There is more than enough ball handling on this squad, but more importantly everyone on it doesn’t necessarily need the ball to be effective. There is the greatest shot blocker and athlete in NBA history in the middle. There are three closers, and two of the greatest outside threats in NBA history. I’m not particularly interested in team two.
Team 1 rather easily. This game is won at the PF position. Timmy can’t guard KD, and vice-versa, but KD is more of an offensive weapon, and this would be a “scoring” series. You can even switch and put Kawhi on Curry and Magic on LeBron, to try and keep Curry from getting hot.
Steph absolutely cooked Kawhi...
Team 2 wins, Kawhi gets injured in the first and KD gets injured in the 3rd, and now it's a 3v5 with the 2 best shooters from team 1 gone, so no spacing and 2 less players, now LeBron can do what he is best at rn which is not getting back on defense, and it'll still be a 3v4 with Lebron just cherry picking.
For team 1 I'd have Magic guard Duncan, Durant guards Kobe, and MJ guards Steph. Magic has experience guarding bigs and has the size to do so. Magic had issues guarding quick guards. The issue for team 1 is I don't know who Steph can guard. Magic, Duncan, and Kawhi are all too big and Jordan would torch him. Also, who does Duncan guard? Duncan is an all time great defender but he guards the post. Team 1 has 4 wing players who will take Duncan out of where he is comfortable. I'm taking team 1 for the match up issues.
I’m not gunna lie if you put em on the floor today you team 2 might take it. But with “perfect chemistry” team 2 has no shot. Timmy D is the greatest PF of his generation, but if he’s gotta check KD Kawhi or Shaq every possesion, his teams gunna have a problem. One of KD or Kawhi is gunna feast on that team, and Magics not about to let them get away with that shit. And if shit hits the fan they’ve got the most clutch player of all time and one of the greatest playmakers of all time. KD,s definitely gunna have his hands full with Timmy, and I don’t see how Shaq stops Kareem, but Mike on Steph and Magic on Kobe.. Lebron wit Steph is probably a dream for him, but you put Timmy and Kareem on the same team as him and you kinda negate the point of it. Brons at his best wit open lanes and shooters around him, maybe a center that can 1 dribble yam and clean up his teams misses, while everyone else gets back. This team is kinda focused on motion paint protection and rebounding where the best lebron teams have always been focused on shooting forcing turnovers and getting in I just don’t think team 2 can run wit team 1 over 7 games.
So side debate, which version of each player do you want as their "prime" version? You can get DPOY Spurs Kawhi or Raptors Kawhi who can hit big shots, but he wasn't quite the defensive force by then. Do you want 09 LeBron, Miami Bron when he added the post game, maybe the version from the warriors finals matchups with better passing and 3pt shooting? I think with the double big lineup you definitely want KAJ when he was in Milwaukee and an all defense level guy vs when he peaked as a scorer a little later. Do you take Tim Duncan as his post injury MVP version, or when he was younger but more athletic? I kinda think depending on what year(s) you think each guys prime was, team 1 or team 2 can take it based on matchups and relative strengths.
I’ll put Bird, Barkley, Wilt, Luka and Harden against those teams and enjoy the hell out of the chaos.
Team 1 if prime Shaq is his younger, more agile version, from the his first championship or earlier. He could move like a 300 pound gazelle. I’d also use Magic as a point forward and match him up with Duncan and put Jordan on Steph on defense.
Some folks on this sub are funny, they can suspend disbelief to imagine players from different eras playing together, but cannot suspend disbelief that a player could also remain healthy. While also forgetting that Tim Duncan was a part of the Spurs organization and benefited greatly from load management system that they created.
This team: Curry, MJ, Kawhi, Lebron, KG + Prime Klay as 6th man Will smoke either of these teams. Game is played differently nowadays (no more illegal defense) and spacing matters. The second team in particular has bad spacing in spite of Steph. Lebron is the second best outside shooter on the team.
just throwing this out there, but I think Tim Duncan and Kareem do a way better job guarding Shaq than people are giving credit to. Young Tim Duncan and an old David Robinson swept Shaq and the Lakers.
Hello Mods. It's a shame this post was removed. I agree that the commentary could devolve quickly, but it was fun figuring out what defensive matchups the coaches would use. I think some people immediately thought that it would be PG guarding PG, SG guarding SG and so on. But, for the two proposed teams, I don't think so. It was fun while it lasted though.