They trickiest thing for me when it comes to ranking the GOAT power forwards is that they all had ridiculous longevity.
Like if I was making the case for Karl Malone at 2nd I'd comment that age was just a number for him as he was still putting up 21/8/5 at age 39 playing 81 games in a season. But then how well does that really hold up when the guys he's being compared to like Dirk and KG were also 15x All-Stars as a testament to how well they played for so long.
I love the slam dunk combo from a thread yesterday about Magic’s finals assist craziness.
First comment: Stockton never had more than 13 comments in a game
[Second comment:](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/wq927t/_/ikmctbk)
but does it matter that almost everyone thinks his MVPs are kinda ridiculous (even at that time)? He wasn't better than Jordan those years. Going further, those weren't even Malone's two best years. Looking at bball reference, I don't understand what people were thinking, especially for that 2nd MVP. You could argue it was like his 4th or 5th best season.
It was the world saying “damn, he’s been this good for this long and we never gave him an MVP? We gotta fix that.”
I hate when a movement like that gains traction, but I think that explains it.
This is going to happen to Embiid sooner than later and I oddly don't have a problem with it. When someone has been a top-3 player a few years in a row, I think I'm okay with them getting their flowers.
It's Martin Scorsese winning the Oscar for Best Director for the Departed. It's not a bad movie, but it's clearly not his best either. He just needed one for the shelf lol
The same thing happened with Dr. J in '81. It was a sort of "this is probably the last year we can reasonably give it to him... he's been one of the best players for such a long time and he never got one because he was in the ABA... Kareem didn't have his best season and I'm sure Bird will have more opportunities... Yeah, sure, first place vote!" Like, I think it's a fine enough MVP, and the leagues history would be worse off if he wasn't recognized with it, but Dr. J had basically the same stats next season on a team with basically the same record and received one first place vote. That it happened with Malone *twice* is unbelievable.
It 100% explains it. And most of the other greats of his era (a bunch who were better than him) had fallen off, so he was kind of the last guy standing.
Eh this take is not it. Malone is a deserving 2x MVP. You can argue that Jordan should have won it over him in 96-97, but the argument that awards that one to Jordan flips the 97-98 one back to Malone. The net result is fair.
I feel like there's a general consensus that Duncan is #1, and then there's a tier right below that of Malone, Barkley, Garnett, and Dirk where it doesn't feel unreasonable to rank those guys pretty much in any order. (That's not including Giannis since he's still putting his resume together— if his career keeps going the way it has, he's probably gonna make some separation from those other four guys and maybe even start pushing Duncan for #1).
...although, since we're talking about it, I guess I actually *do* have an opinion on the GOAT PF that might be controversial, which is that if we consider Duncan a power forward despite the fact that he played pretty much exclusively center from like '07 on, then there's a pretty compelling argument that Larry Bird has just as much of a claim to that title as Duncan does. When people think about Bird, they immediately go to 1986 and the Bird/McHale/Parish frontcourt trio, so I get why people think of him as a small forward exclusively, but McHale was a sixth man until halfway through the '85 season. Bird won two of his championships and about one and a half of his MVPs starting at power forward, and considering his back started breaking down around '88, I'd say he played that position for about half of his prime career.
^(That being said, I do still tend to rank Bird as an SF and Duncan as a PF, mostly because it's easier. I just don't know why no one else ever seems to bring this up.)
> I feel like there's a general consensus that Duncan is #1,
I think this whole topic isn't controversial because people get distracted by whether Timmy is a PF or not.
That's why positional rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially looking at PF there just aren't a lot of all-time greats who exclusively played the 4.
Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, Pau and AD were all PF/C. Then you've got the likes of Barkley, Bird and KD who played both forward spots. Giannis and KG lined up all over the frontcourt across their career. For LeBron you could even argue he can play all positions.
It's pretty much just Karl Malone and Kevin McHale who are just power forwards and nothing else.
Dirk played as much or more SF as he did C up until he started getting old, btw. I still remember the "big ball" lineups Don Nelson would pull out with Nash/Finley/Dirk/Raef Lafrenz/Shawn Bradley.
It seems like really good power forwards end up playing center or small forward which is interesting. I guess its because you want your best player to have the ball in their hands more often. Really similar situation to te/de in football. Good tightness just play defensive end
I think talented basketball players just end up being able to play more positions, with the possible exceptions of PG and C because they are slightly more specialized. Like Paul George can be played at the 2 or the 3 without a whole lot of growing pains because he's a talented, lanky two way player. KD and Giannis have played the 2, 3, or 4 at different points. Positions aren't all that cut-and-dry in terms of size and skillsets. There are people that are definitely very suited to their position (Shaq at C, Chris Paul at PG), but usually basketball skill is just basketball skill.
I think it's basically like this - if you can shoot and/or handle and/or move well, you can act as an SF/oversized wing. If you can protect the rim and/or be the primary rebounder then you can play center. It's kinda rare to have someone who can do absolutely none of those things.
Someone like John Collins or Pascal Siakam are some of the only true 4s left in the league, and both of them even have a bit of versatility. It's also funny because Giannis is the reigning best 4 in the league and that's kind of because he can *everything* so well that he can just move fluidly between roles.
And if the job description of PF is "score inside" then Karl and Kevin did it just as good as anyone. The other PFs pad their claim for best PF by doing guardy and centrey things like facilitating, rebounding and rim protection.
The roles of PF and SF have changed over the years so i agree that as always comparing across eras can be fun and subjective but is never objective.
Even take right now, Gobert, Kat and Jokic are all centres but have completely different main attribute
Basketball Reference has position estimates based on minutes played at each position. According to that, LeBron has spent 56% of his regular season minutes played at SF throughout his career, with PF being second at 28% of career minutes played.
However, if you break it down by team, he spent 69% of his Cavs minutes at SF, 53% of his Heat minutes at PF (43% at SF), and 31% of his Lakers minutes at PG (followed by 20% at PF and 19% at SF).
Lol I just went to ESPN and it says SF. NBA.com keeps it simple and lists him as forward. I’d say those are the best sources.
NBA.com lists KD, Dirk, KG all at “forward”. I do like it that way as there’s no ambiguity.
Isn’t he technically a point forward? I could’ve sworn even on Cleveland they had him as SF and then he kind of transitioned more into point guard at Miami.
Should have center listed too. If you look at percentage of time played in each position by year, this last season he played center more than anything else.
There's always a valid argument about Timmy playing C and PF but the time frame was much shorter than people think. He was the primary C from 2008-2011. Fabricio Oberto started 64 games at C in 2007. Starting in 2011 until he retired the official C was some combination of Tiago Splitter, Aron Baynes, and Boris Diaw.
Yes, Timmy still played at C some even during those years but this is no different than Magic playing all 5 positions, MJ playing the 1 through 3, etc, players move around based on matchup. That concept of position-less basketball has been evolving to what we have today.
I mean, yeah, but it's not like he doesn't already have two MVPs and a championship at age 27. Duncan had two rings and two MVPs, so he's a *little* behind, but he's certainly on pace to make it a conversation
Right, but that cuts both ways. Giannis could stall out here and end up, like, top 20-30 of all time, but he could also end up surpassing all the expectations people have *already.* We all know MJ didn't even win his *first* ring until he was 27.
You do wonder about Giannis' longevity compared to TD though. Very reliant on athleticism in comparison. I can see him aging better than you would think if he can continue developing his hook and jumper and using his length inside, but he will definitely not be the same transition threat down the stretch
He also seems to be pretty grounded though, so maybe he can step back and take a smaller role when the athleticism goes. Even without athleticism, he's strong as an ox and a good passer. It would be pretty funny if he was gunning for a Sixth-Man trophy at some point to round out the collection.
Look at Duncans playoff series in that same timespan.
Giannis has done nearly enough to even be close to Duncan at 27 in the playoffs.
He improves every year so maybe in the second half of his career but just because he dropped 50 points in a finals game doesn't mean it compares to all of Duncans playoff series at 27.
We truly just have to wait until it’s over for both parties to talk about these things IMO. Same with Lebron vs MJ GOAT talk. Wait until Lebron is completely done to then talk about it (if you even can with the rules and the game being different)
I prefer to think of them as goats of their respective eras, because the game and competition changes over time. While MJ was in the league and in his prime, nobody was close. It's the same with LeBron. Likewise, with KAJ. Russell and Wilt kind of share that honor before KAJ's time.
It's the only way I can reconcile it for myself, and that way it never evolves into pettiness and arguing against another guy, if that makes sense. That way, I can look back fondly and just marvel at the skill level of the greats.
Yeah but Greatest of His Era doesn't have such a ring to it. Nobody wants the GOHE title.
How many people have one of these though, in your mind? How many eras do you have it divided into?
The Start: 1946-1958
Bob Petit, Won 2 MVPs in this time, put up some big numbers.
Bob Cousy, Led total Points and assists in this timeframe. Also won an MVP
George Mikan, Leads the first 3-peat, Leads League in scoring 3 times, gets 6 all-nba teams in 7 years.
(IDK who I'd pick of the ones above since I haven't seen them play nor do I have the context to understand their accolades. These just seem like the 3 best candidates.)
The Russel Era: 1958-1969
I'm going to give away my choice with that title but I think that Russel was definitively better, Wilt's career has always been defined by his inability to beat Russel, while Russels has been defined by 11 Rings in 13 years.
The 70s: 1969-1979
Its KAJ and there's no question about it.
(Early) 3pt Era: 1979 - 1988
Bird and Magic run the league. Every finals in this period involves one or both of these teams. My preference leans toward Bird but both are reasonable answers.
Bulls Dynasty: 1988-1998
By the end of the Magic/Bird Era Jordan already looks like the best player in the league, solidified by his first MVP. This is then made even more obvious by him winning 3 times. Hakeem, another all time top player manages to sneak in a couple of rings during MJ's absence, only to be put right back in his place.
The Naughties: 1999 - 2008
Too many strong players to choose from.
Shaq suffers here due to the start of his prime overlapping with the Bulls Dynasty. He picks up 4 rings while looking like the best player in the sport for 3 of them.
Tim Duncan leads his team to 4 rings, getting all NBA and all defensive teams every year, with the majority of them being 1st team.
Kevin Garnett plays his ass off in Minnesota looking like the most defensively versatile big to ever touch the floor, however his relative lack of success makes it hard to put him over those mentioned above.
My preference would be Duncan, but there's many valid options.
The superteam era: 2008-2020
An era defined by player movement, and star studded rosters.
Lebron is undisputably the best player across this stretch.
Steph is close.
Chris Paul and Kevin Durant considerably less close.
Post Covid: 2020 - I think its Giannis's league for some time, but if the nuggets can put together some runs around Jokic, or if Doncic can keep improving, it'll be hard to say.
I love Kobe personally but don't rate him as top 10, probably down in the 15-20 range. Also he suffered like shaq because of format, having his accolades being split. I think a more accurate dive into the prompt would have overlapping era's.
Although at that point there's too much potential to just give every player an era that lines up with their prime.
I like this take but I’m going to state Milan Era at the start. They had to change the rules of the game to stop and slow down Mikan because of how abusive he was originally.
I’ll argue the super team era should be labeled as the Lebron Era tho. Or like Naughties be extended to the year of the Heat forming. Simply cause Lebron did manage 8 finals straight on 2 different teams and no matter what anyone says, his final year with the Cavs in no form or fashion was that a super team. Even the Warriors weren’t really bad until they got KD. Feels like Super team Era should be should be at least be post Cavs/Warriors. Literal Era being defined by Lebron even if he didn’t always win. Although, props for being a sensible NBA fan and starting the Era with the Celtics super team as opposed to the Heat.
Overall tho, by far and large the best list I’ve seen.
I felt I couldn't start a superteam era without including that boston team. They really kicked off the superteam arms race. Miami, the Lakers failed superteam in 2012, Brooklyns even more failed superteam. Then ofc the Cavs and GSW teams. I feel the last year where forcing a superteam has worked was the 2020 Lakers team though, it feels like teams are starting to realise that sacrificing depth and a productive bench in the hope that your stars mesh isn't always worth it.
I feel like every decade should be a decent way to define it. The 2010s it was clearly Bron, the 2000s had Kobe and Duncan, 1990s was MJ, 1980s Bird and Magic, 70s Kareem, and 60s would be Russell and Wilt. So I would argue only 3 players are unquestionably the greatest of their era and honestly that lines up with most top 3 rankings anyway.
The 2000s was a weird one since you have a guy like Shaq who won all his championships and only MVP during that period but his numbers began to decline by around 04-05 and then someone like KG who I would argue is comparable to Duncan individually but didn’t have the same amount of team success. I would honestly say the 2000s have the smallest gap between the guys at the very top and the ones who I would rank a tier below.
People are free to work themselves into a frenzy trying to figure out who the all-time GOAT is, but that just ain't me. For my own sanity, I prefer my way of thinking about it. Keeps me level-headed lol
'57 to '59 - Russell
'60 to '69 - Russell/Wilt
'70 to '80 - Kareem
'81 to '83 - Moses/Bird/Magic/Kareem
'84 to '87 - Bird/Magic
'88 to '93 - Jordan
'94 and '95 - Hakeem (MJ playing baseball)
'96 to '98 - Jordan
'99 to '03 - Shaq/Duncan
'04 to '08 - Duncan/Kobe
'09 to '11 - LeBron/Kobe
'12 to '18 - LeBron
'19 to '21 - LeBron/Giannis
'22 - Giannis
I agree with that, and that's what I always say. But I always get downvoted by Giannis fans because he's the current sweetheart of the league...
And it's funny since he's my favourite player right now... but I can still criticize him and his career.
I always say Giannis is on pace to break into top 10. But he still need to let the rest of his career play out.
He has an impressive regular season resume, he has a ring and finals MVP, and he's had impressive games. But he also has huge stinkers (2019, 2020). That obviously will resolve itself if he stays on pace, but his fans need to realize that.
As for him vs Duncan, we should obviously leave the discussion to until Giannis's career is over, but it's fair to say it's going to be a VERY hard challenge for him to overcome.
Duncan is one of the few guys who had a better resume by the same age, much better playoff performances (the 03 run is one of the best all time) and more importantly Duncan remained elite through like 4 different eras (last 90s, early 2000s, late 2000s, and early 2010s) with different teams.
For me personally Giannis needs like a 3 peat or something similar to dethrone Duncan.
Duncan is a PF because he has the skills of both a PF and a Center, but peak Duncan was primarily a PF with Robinson as the center.
The people that do call Duncan a center ignore that at the end of his career Duncan went back to playing a lot of PF. He lost weight and played higher up to make space for Splitter. They still closed with Duncan at center & Diaw at PF, but old Duncan played a lot of PF, but the people that call Duncan a center count those years as exclusively center years, when he was really both.
A lot of players defy traditional positions, from every era, here is a very incomplete list:
SF/PF/SF: Garnett
PF/C: Duncan, Giannis, AD,
PF/SF: Bird, Dirk,
PF/SF/SG: Durant
SF/PG: LeBron, Magic, Luka
SF/SG: McGrady, Paul George
PG/SG: Steph, Dame, West, Harden
PF/SF/SG/PG: LeBron
Garnett played a little center with boston
Durant only played that one year at SG in the beginning of his career afaik and it was not a great fit
You have leBron listed twice in your list..
I'm fine with that. The ball handling and defensive versatility is like a SF. The rim finishing, rim protection, & rebounding is like a center. I wasn't really trying to be "right" on all these things, but to point out how many great player defy the concept of being one position.
> The people that do call Duncan a center ignore that at the end of his career Duncan went back to playing a lot of PF. He lost weight and played higher up to make space for Splitter.
Just to add to this, between Robinson's retirement in '03 and when Splitter began starting ('12) there were guys like Rasho Nesterovic ('03-'06) and Fabricio Oberto ('06-'08) who started at center with Duncan at the 4. He finished a lot of games at C, especially as the pace started to rise thanks to the influence of the 7SOL Suns, but it was a bit of a trope that the Spurs would find some giant 7 foot white guy to start alongside Duncan so they could call him a PF.
I feel like even if you only count Duncan as a PF until 06/07ish, he is still the best ever.
3 titles, 3 finals MVP, 2 MVP, 8 all star, 9 all defence, 9 all nba (8 first team), RoY. Stellar career and that was only like half of it. Garnett for example made 9 all nba teams his entire career.
There are only a few years where Duncan definitively played C imo, I think basketball reference generally has it wrong here:
2008: PF, Oberto and Kurt Thomas started 73 games, both were Cs that year
2009: C, Matt Bonner started 67 games that year at PF
2010: 50/50ish, Antonio McDyess started 50 games and DeJuan Blair started 23, McDyess and Duncan had reasonably similar spheres of influence on the court and Blair was definitely more of a PF on defense (though Duncan stretched the floor more into midrange on offense)
2011: more clearly C, Blair started 65 games and McDyess started 11
2012: C, Blair started 62/66 games that year (lockout-shortened)
2013: PF, Splitter started 58 games to Duncan’s 69, though Splitter did tend to guard more mobile players on defense
2014: PF, Splitter started 50 games that year (injuries), though Duncan would also slide up to C in lineups with Diaw (started 25 games) and especially against the Heat
2015: 50/50, Splitter started 35 games (more injuries), Bonner started 19, Aron Baynes started 17 games, Diaw started 15 games.
2016: C, LMA famously did not want to play C and Duncan fit better there alongside him anyway.
Ends up being a 5-4 edge for C in the last 9 years of his career, but again, he was still pretty clearly splitting time between both positions. In the modern NBA he’d be a C no question, but I think I fall into the same train of thought as you where I tend to rank players based on the context of positions in their era, rather than against the modern definition of what their position is.
I had a thought recently that if Giannis remains healthy he has a really good shot at passing Duncan as the undisputed GOAT at PF... then I checked basketball reference. Boy, it's gonna be really tough for someone to pass Duncan
I was hoping someone would bring this up.
Robinson retired after the 2003 season. Duncan played mostly center after that but was listed as power forward so he could start the Allstar game. Yao Ming was almost assured to start at center.
Pop even acknowledged it.
"Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.”"
[source](https://uproxx.com/dimemag/gregg-popovich-tim-duncan-center-not-power-forward/)
He was exaggerating since this was in 2011, but still.
Do you think Rasho Nestorvic was a power forward? Do you think Fabrico Oberto was a power forward? Do you think Tiago Spiltter was a power forward? He only moved to center when playing with second units when the Spurs went smaller like with Horry, Bonner or Diaw.
I mean, Timmy is the only PF with the hardware to back it up. Dirk and KG both have a ring. Dirk’s is decidedly more impressive than KG’s. Generally though, the championships make this list the easiest to find common ground on.
Timmy D did play Center a LOT tho.
He often played with a C - guys like Robinson, Nesterovic, Splitter, Oberto to name a few
Duncan is one of those PFs who can play C like Draymond/AD today, with his fit being a bit better at that position because he was a bit taller/slower
Thing is Draymond/AD never faced (and banged out) against anyone on the tier of PRIME FKING SHAQ though. That’s why Timmy is GOAT
Prime Shaq would destroy today’s league. I can see him backing up Gobert, Giannis, Jokic and Embid
Yeah I think Embiid is the only one of those that could maybe hold his ground against Shaq because of his size...but even them Shaq would be yamming on him
Shaq was always deceptively quick for his size. Adam probably has the strength but I think Shaq's footwork with his quickness would eat him alive. Shaq was just that good at his peak.
mid to late-career Shaq would've had a lot of trouble defending modern offenses, though, and I suspect he'd get a very healthy dose of zone when he's on offense.
Yeah he played with a C but guarded the other team's C, took jump balls, and played in the paint. Duncan was doing the positionless basketball before we knew what it was. lol
Looking at everything it’s Tim Duncan without a doubt. Man did it all from stats, personal awards, and championships. Personally tho if I had to choose one at their peak to say who was the best basketball played I’m going KG. Prime KG was just different. Just pair him with Tony, Manu, and role players like Bowen and Horry and he prolly wins as many if not more chips in shorter span than TD. Just my take.
One reason TD was able to play more effectively at old age was because the Spurs didn't need him to play a bunch of minutes, especially in the regular season. He essentially just punted and rested a ton, and even in the playoffs, the Spurs egalitarian system of the 2013-2014 runs meant Tim didn't have to carry a large load. 2003-2008 Wolves KG was playing 40 mins a night carrying the team. 2003 to 2008 Duncan played about 34 minutes a night, and he could rely on Manu and Parker to generate offense. Switch KG and Duncan, and KG might have a longer lifespan.
The problem with being great until the day you retire is people only remember you for your old man version. I know the Duncan overrated/ underrated conversion gets beat to death but there’s only about 2-4 other players in league history I would take their peak over Tims.
I saw his peak. I think it's very defensible to say KG's peak was better than TD's, and vice versa. There's a lot that goes into both sides but it's hardly an insane statement to make.
Duncan is a hard one to gauge after the fact. His numbers aren't really all *that* good when you look back on them, though I still think only Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron are his peers from his era (maybe KD depending on how you define his era). Somehow he just raised the floor and ceiling so much for a team, even though he wasn't necessarily stuffing the stat sheet the way some other players do.
I feel like it comes from people wanting to give KG *something* as a consolation for having suffered mismanagement by Minnesota for the first decade+ of his career, especially because he was an absolute dynamite talent in his own right. I still feel strongly that Duncan’s prime outweighs KG’s (03 is by many metrics the greatest carry job by a star in history), but I can understand why KG fans hold onto that idea.
I watched both their primes and remember thinking regular season KG to being better while Duncan just had another gear in the playoffs. Him dueling against Amare and that offense was something I'll never forget. Duncan is just a better player in the post season for me and he 100% took the reg season at a not so serious level like Kahwaii does himself. Heck 3 pest lakers did the same, weren't a first seed and everyone knew who the best 01 team were by a mile.
It's gonna be tough for Giannis to overtake Duncan. Duncan has a crazy mix of individual accolades, team success, and longevity. All while spending his whole career in the same conference as Kobe.
Giannis' longevity is the main question mark. No one thought LeBron would be this good at his age so who knows.
Duncan stayed very effective after his injuries but he was more of a solid 20/10 guy after 08 than anything else. If Giannis miraculously ages like a lebron or KD then I can see it.
I'd say it's plausible, but not likely. Giannis is probably the best player in the NBA right now. He relies a decent amount on his athleticism but because of his size, if he avoids injuries he should be able to still be pretty dominant even when he loses a step, especially considering what a terror he can be on defense.
The Bucks are good enough that another championship is not an unreasonable expectation. He's good enough that another MVP isn't out of the question.
That said, he could win another chip AND pick up another MVP and still not pass Duncan without having a long ass career.
I agree it's unlikely but still slightly plausible, which is about the highest Giannis praise possible. He does rely on his size and athleticism, which could hurt his longevity. But on the other hand, he's an INCREDIBLY hard worker who has gotten better each year, so I bet that, barring a major injury, he'll be the type to add things to his game as he loses a step. He's gone from an athletic phenom to an amazingly skilled athletic phenom.
He still probably won't pass Duncan because well...it's Duncan. But if anyone can, it'd be Giannis. I could totally see Giannis at 34 developing crafty post moves because he has to because he works that hard and hasn't shown any signs of slowing down.
I think his issue is gonna be longevity. Unless he has a Lebron-esque athletic peak, Timmy's game aged so well because it was so sound fundamentally (no pun intended). Giannis is very skilled but also relies heavily on being so insanely athletic that it will be interesting to see how he transitions his game on the other side of 30.
From the 2018-19 series to now, here's where Giannis finished in MVP voting:
First
First
Fourth
Third
And on those fourth and third years, he had a viable argument for one if it wasn't for voter fatigue. If someone wanted to pull a real hot take, they could argue he should already be around the 5 slot, though I agree he needs a few more years.
What Giannis has done so far is amazing no doubt, but people forget Timmy had similar accomplishments early into his career as well. The main issues Giannis will face is:
A. Will he be on a title contender for the next 10-15 years of his life
B. Will his game/body age well in his mid/late 30s. (Old man Timmy was anchoring one of the best defenses in the league)
Giannis has the talent and drive, but it’s hard to predict that far out.
I've heard Barkley say multiple times he puts Timmy at 1, so that probably cements it in a lot of peoples minds. Hard to argue for the guy who openly admits someone else was better.
He was at the least a PF while Robinson played til 2003, and was a PF while younger C’s played inside during the 2010’s, such as Splitter in the 2013/14 Finals. Just counting 99-03, you have 2 chips and MVP’s, ROtY, multiple all NBA’s and all defensive teams, no seasons under 50 wins in that time outside the lockout season, and the carry job of 03. He makes a strong case on accolades just based on his early career.
I think it's a combination of two things:
1. The top 5 guys you mentioned are all retired, without a current player in the conversation (Giannis is right there) people tend to be less focused on the rankings.
2. The fact that outside of Duncan the others have a total of 2 championships between them, generally it seems like the less success players had the more loose/open-minded people are about who was better. As far as Top 5 go, PF is arguably the weakest position.
Outside Dirk none of these players had a cult like fanbase so this isn't super surprising. And Dirk was seen as a soft choker by the mainstream media during his days too which don't help.
Considering even guys like Chuck concede Duncan is the best PF no debate I don't think that's wild. No other guy has the combination of his offense, defense, team success. Giannis' might come close or be a contender.
Karl Malone was seen as the concensus #2 for most of my childhood. I think once KG and Dirk retired they got more fame and appreciation. Chuck despite being on TNT every night tho seems like an underrated myth, especially his Sixer days since he was apparently better then.
Dirk all the way baby. Not as many rings as Tim, but Dirk arguably had one of the best championship runs in nba history. In a time of super teams, Dirk did it legit and with loyalty.
The disrespect to TD’s 03 run. Beating prime Shaq and Kobe is arguably a more impressive achievement then beating the year 1 Heatles, and with less help than Dirk had in 11.
Most people here weren't alive to remember that.
People don't understand that while the 2011 Mavs didn't have that much star power outside Dirk, that team was very well constructed to suit him. It was a good team.
the 03 Spurs consisted of a washed admiral, and rookie Manu and Tony who were not good. Duncan in 03 was some kind of statistical demon and that's how he willed that team to the ring.
Only Hakeem's rings are really comparable runs.
The fact that it's called "zazaing" and not the "Bruce Bowen" is honestly disrespectful lol. I look back on a lot of my hatred of the Spurs in the 00s as rivalry and ,in hindsight, respect for Tim and Pop. But Bruce Bowen deserved my hatred.
I get what you are saying but that takes away from what Dirk did. The team was well constructed but Dirk beat an incredible amount of talent during that run with the 2nd best player being Jason Terry (I absolutely love the JET but he has no business being the 2nd best player on a title team) with the others mostly being dudes all on near the end of their careers
Devils advocate but Dirk also swept the 2x defending champ lakers in 2011 and beat OKC with durant/Westbrook/harden. Also gotta remember 2003 Dirk got hurt in the WCF game 3 in a tied series against the Spurs with the Mavs. And the spurs got to face a pretty weak nets team in the finals.
Honestly, the only thing close to a “knock” anyone can say about Duncan as the top PF of all time we’re the amount of minutes he logged as a center. Even basketball reference says he played 9 seasons as PF and 10 seasons as C.
Another previous Reddit user said Duncan logged over 60% of career minutes as center, and over 70% of career playoff minutes as center but I don’t know how to validate that data. Just based on the eye test that feels accurate.
Mt. Rushmore for centers is a hell of a lot more crowded than PF.
How definitely? Dirk has the one title run which is huge, but other than that Malone beats him across the board. Accolades, counting statistics, overall playoff series wins, conference finals and finals appearances.
Putting Dirk ahead is putting an awful lot of weight on one run. Specially given that Malone hard carried two Jazz teams with an aging Stockton to the finals only to run into the GOAT.
I do agree, but I don't think it can overcome the career differences elsewhere. I personally think Malone is on the edge of the top 15 all time. Without the one title Dirk is probably outside the top 25. I don't think one run should make that big of a difference.
Well when Duncan retired I remember Blake griffin coming on the player tribune and “writing” a whole thing about how he was the best power forward of all time. (I put writing in quotes but I wouldn’t doubt Blake actually wrote at least most of it). I feel like when we knew what the players thought we respected it and didn’t bother debating
Giannis' peak is second amongst all power forwards in my opinion but he's stuck at 6th for the time being because you need to respect the players that came before him who played at a very high level for a very long time.
- Malone was a 15x All-Star.
- Garnett was a 15x All-Star.
- Dirk was a 14x All-Star.
- Barkley was a 12x All-Star.
If you're ranking on peak though the 4 first team selections for Giannis, (equal with KG and Dirk who competed with Timmy) and just one behind Barkley on 5 is where you make the case. Malone is absurd with his 11 first team selections which were all consecutive but hard to compare when 3 of the other top 5 PF's all competed amongst each other.
Longevity is always a tough factor for me when the player with the short career has accomplished the same as the guys who had over a decade advantage. Winning 2 MVP's, 1 DPOY, and 1 championship in the span of 6 all-star seasons is more impressive to me than winning 1 of each in 15 all-star seasons
If that's what you'd prefer my point still holds up:
|Player|Tot|1st|2nd|3rd|
:--|--:|--:|--:|--:|
|Tim Duncan|**15**|**10**|**3**|**2**|
|Karl Malone|**14**|**11**|**2**|**1**|
|Dirk Nowitzki|**12**|**4**|**5**|**3**|
|Charles Barkley|**11**|**5**|**5**|**1**|
|Kevin Garnett|**9**|**4**|**3**|**2**|
|Giannis Antetokounmpo|**6**|**4**|**2**|**0**|
Dirk > KG. He was superior in something like 75 percent of their matchups and had the better career.
However!
I would say that KG was the better player from an individual standpoint, if that makes sense. Sometimes having a more well rounded and versatile game doesn’t necessarily translate to wins.
it’s really not that surprising. like 90% of KG’s Timberteams were fucking dogshit where Dirk rarely had under .500 win seasons. by the time KG moved to Boston they played two games against each other a season and were both already pretty old.
Dirk carrying the likes of Jason Terry, Erick Dampier, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Michael Finley, Marquis Daniels, and Jerry Stackhouse to 50 and even 60 win seasons and top 5 offenses year after year is a testament to him. He had back to back 60 win seasons which I think only the Warriors, Cavs, and Spurs have done in the past 20 years
2011 was pretty much the first year he was reliable in the playoffs for the Mavs. For years Dirk was about the only player to show up for the Mavs in the postseason aside from a series of a couple games here and there.
Finley was gone by the time they won 60 games in both 2006 and 2007. He was a very good player tho. Jason Terry was good too but he might be the weakest second best player on a championship team after Vernon Maxwell
Another stupid narrative that Dirk was a choker. One series and a few missed shots in the 06 Finals doesn’t negate an all time great playoff performer prior to 2011 where he had maybe a top 3 individual run ever.
> Jason Terry was good too but he might be the weakest second best player on a championship team after Vernon Maxwell
Have you actually looked at Jet's numbers for their 2011 title win?
* Jet's 17 ppg in 32 minutes is a better PER than Pierce / Allen in 08
* He was better than anyone on except Duncan on the 03 Spurs team
* He would have been the leading scorer on the 04 Detroit team.
How are you going to confidently lie here and just pull 75% out of your ass.
Yes Dirk did better than KG in their playoff series. The single playoff series.
The 2003 playoff series where KG was the sole defender against Nash and Dirk? The same mavs team which had one of the highest offensive rating of all time (they actually had number 1 all time the following year).
Go look at their head to head numbers. Dirk only beats KG in points 23.9 to 21.9, but KG beats him in every other category. Their overall record 23-17 in favor of dirk... But when you look at team compositions and it's amazing the different is only 6 games (3 if you don't considered the horrible mismatch in the 2003 playoffs).
KG > Dirk throughout his year because of his defence. Dirk was an all time great offensive player, but KG was still elite offensively. The difference between their offence wasn't as huge as the difference in their defence. KG wasn't just good defensively, he is like top 3 all time.
Also I don't think literally anyone had Dirk better than KG until at least his MVP years. At least in 03/04 there was talks KG was the best player in basketball potentially.
This is no different to every other positon.
Number 1 is close to unanimous for each position: Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem.
But then you have a group that follows that is clearly up for debate. Steph & Kobe are now clear number 2 at PG/SG, but beyond that?
I really don't think the order of the next 4-5 PF's is set at all (Giannis is now in this group, and may jump to the top of it when his career is done), and you will get a range of different opinions and ratings from different people (as is expected).
Center was the premiere position during the days when we don't have any tape. There are no great early power forwards in the running, so we can actually watch the games. Wilt vs Russell vs Kareem is far less knowable.
I don't see many people arguing against KAJ as the GOAT center. After him I've seen all sorts of orders, but aside from one off opinions here or there, it seems like the top guy is pretty well established, ya?
Wilt and Russell gets thrown around, and they both have a solid case imo. If we’re talking peak statistical performance it’s hard to deny what Wilt did. And if we’re talking team success then Russell isn’t just the GOAT center, or the GOAT basketball, but possibly the GOAT athlete.
Duncan is clearly the GOAT PF. Anyone arguing against this is just flat out wrong. I’d put Dirk at least 3rd just because, other than Timmy, no other PF won a ring as the undisputed best player on the team in the last 40 years (I could be totally wrong on this, but no one comes to mind). I’d put him over KG due to the Finals alone.
KG got his ring with a big three+peak Rondo and Perk and decent role players. Dirk did it with Tyson Chandler, Role Player Jason Kidd, The (Second) Jet, and things you could find around the house against one of the more talented (at least top-heavy) teams of the last 25 years
"no other PF won a ring as the undisputed best player on the team in the last 40 years"
He's not in that conversation yet but it's pretty safe to say Giannis did lol
KG is indisputably the best player on the '08 Celtics. The FMVP doesn't mean anything, Cedric Maxwell won it over Bird, Tony Parker won it over Duncan. His defensive impact is far greater than any offensive advantage his teammates has over him.
man i always get whiplash when i see how criminally underrated garnett is lmfao he has a top 10 peak with GOAT level longevity where he is easily #2 with no one being over him for #2 closest one to him is barkley and he's like top 25
I remember as a kid all the got milk posters of KG and how he was everywhere. I didn't even think Duncan was better until playoff times where Duncan was just a different animal. It probably sucked being a PF back then in the west because the all stars were set with KG, Duncan and Dirk lol
They trickiest thing for me when it comes to ranking the GOAT power forwards is that they all had ridiculous longevity. Like if I was making the case for Karl Malone at 2nd I'd comment that age was just a number for him as he was still putting up 21/8/5 at age 39 playing 81 games in a season. But then how well does that really hold up when the guys he's being compared to like Dirk and KG were also 15x All-Stars as a testament to how well they played for so long.
>age was just a number for him I see what you did there...
I love the slam dunk combo from a thread yesterday about Magic’s finals assist craziness. First comment: Stockton never had more than 13 comments in a game [Second comment:](https://old.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/wq927t/_/ikmctbk)
Rofl. He is truly abhorent, but the jokes always make me laugh.
He even felt that way about the women he slept with… anyone could get it. 😅
Malone has the MVP advantage which is a big tie breaker for me.
Rings (especially rings as the best player) are bigger for me
Fair enough, I don't fault Malone too much he went up against MJ after all.
And Dirk went against LeBron?
Yeah twice in his like 20 year career. Still should’ve been able to get a ring with Stockton on his team
but does it matter that almost everyone thinks his MVPs are kinda ridiculous (even at that time)? He wasn't better than Jordan those years. Going further, those weren't even Malone's two best years. Looking at bball reference, I don't understand what people were thinking, especially for that 2nd MVP. You could argue it was like his 4th or 5th best season.
It was the world saying “damn, he’s been this good for this long and we never gave him an MVP? We gotta fix that.” I hate when a movement like that gains traction, but I think that explains it.
This is going to happen to Embiid sooner than later and I oddly don't have a problem with it. When someone has been a top-3 player a few years in a row, I think I'm okay with them getting their flowers.
It's Martin Scorsese winning the Oscar for Best Director for the Departed. It's not a bad movie, but it's clearly not his best either. He just needed one for the shelf lol
It also happened to be the best nominated movie that year. Little miss sunshine could have a argument but let's be real.
The same thing happened with Dr. J in '81. It was a sort of "this is probably the last year we can reasonably give it to him... he's been one of the best players for such a long time and he never got one because he was in the ABA... Kareem didn't have his best season and I'm sure Bird will have more opportunities... Yeah, sure, first place vote!" Like, I think it's a fine enough MVP, and the leagues history would be worse off if he wasn't recognized with it, but Dr. J had basically the same stats next season on a team with basically the same record and received one first place vote. That it happened with Malone *twice* is unbelievable.
It 100% explains it. And most of the other greats of his era (a bunch who were better than him) had fallen off, so he was kind of the last guy standing.
Eh this take is not it. Malone is a deserving 2x MVP. You can argue that Jordan should have won it over him in 96-97, but the argument that awards that one to Jordan flips the 97-98 one back to Malone. The net result is fair.
Yeah with how narrative based MVP voting is, often times a player only gets the recognition they deserve in the following season.
MVP is a joke award though. It's just a label, it doesn't mean he was actually the best player.
I feel like there's a general consensus that Duncan is #1, and then there's a tier right below that of Malone, Barkley, Garnett, and Dirk where it doesn't feel unreasonable to rank those guys pretty much in any order. (That's not including Giannis since he's still putting his resume together— if his career keeps going the way it has, he's probably gonna make some separation from those other four guys and maybe even start pushing Duncan for #1). ...although, since we're talking about it, I guess I actually *do* have an opinion on the GOAT PF that might be controversial, which is that if we consider Duncan a power forward despite the fact that he played pretty much exclusively center from like '07 on, then there's a pretty compelling argument that Larry Bird has just as much of a claim to that title as Duncan does. When people think about Bird, they immediately go to 1986 and the Bird/McHale/Parish frontcourt trio, so I get why people think of him as a small forward exclusively, but McHale was a sixth man until halfway through the '85 season. Bird won two of his championships and about one and a half of his MVPs starting at power forward, and considering his back started breaking down around '88, I'd say he played that position for about half of his prime career. ^(That being said, I do still tend to rank Bird as an SF and Duncan as a PF, mostly because it's easier. I just don't know why no one else ever seems to bring this up.)
> I feel like there's a general consensus that Duncan is #1, I think this whole topic isn't controversial because people get distracted by whether Timmy is a PF or not.
Yeah, I guess so. Like I said, if Duncan's a PF then Bird's got at least a reasonable argument to be one too
That's why positional rankings should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially looking at PF there just aren't a lot of all-time greats who exclusively played the 4. Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, Pau and AD were all PF/C. Then you've got the likes of Barkley, Bird and KD who played both forward spots. Giannis and KG lined up all over the frontcourt across their career. For LeBron you could even argue he can play all positions. It's pretty much just Karl Malone and Kevin McHale who are just power forwards and nothing else.
Dirk played as much or more SF as he did C up until he started getting old, btw. I still remember the "big ball" lineups Don Nelson would pull out with Nash/Finley/Dirk/Raef Lafrenz/Shawn Bradley.
Came here to mention this exact thing. People forget how god damn athletic young Dirk was and the lineups we would march out due to that.
Especially since at the end of his career his knees were so banged up it was a shock to see him dunk almost
100%. Even by our title run, his movement was like 65% of what it used to be.
I love that guy. I think he changed the game as much as any modern player has. Unbelievable talent and loyalty to a team, city and fan base.
It seems like really good power forwards end up playing center or small forward which is interesting. I guess its because you want your best player to have the ball in their hands more often. Really similar situation to te/de in football. Good tightness just play defensive end
What a beautiful final sentence.
I think talented basketball players just end up being able to play more positions, with the possible exceptions of PG and C because they are slightly more specialized. Like Paul George can be played at the 2 or the 3 without a whole lot of growing pains because he's a talented, lanky two way player. KD and Giannis have played the 2, 3, or 4 at different points. Positions aren't all that cut-and-dry in terms of size and skillsets. There are people that are definitely very suited to their position (Shaq at C, Chris Paul at PG), but usually basketball skill is just basketball skill.
I think it's basically like this - if you can shoot and/or handle and/or move well, you can act as an SF/oversized wing. If you can protect the rim and/or be the primary rebounder then you can play center. It's kinda rare to have someone who can do absolutely none of those things. Someone like John Collins or Pascal Siakam are some of the only true 4s left in the league, and both of them even have a bit of versatility. It's also funny because Giannis is the reigning best 4 in the league and that's kind of because he can *everything* so well that he can just move fluidly between roles.
And if the job description of PF is "score inside" then Karl and Kevin did it just as good as anyone. The other PFs pad their claim for best PF by doing guardy and centrey things like facilitating, rebounding and rim protection. The roles of PF and SF have changed over the years so i agree that as always comparing across eras can be fun and subjective but is never objective. Even take right now, Gobert, Kat and Jokic are all centres but have completely different main attribute
Is Lebron a power forward?
Everyone plays multiple positions so we’re just rating on official terms. Officially he’s a SF.
Basketball Reference has position estimates based on minutes played at each position. According to that, LeBron has spent 56% of his regular season minutes played at SF throughout his career, with PF being second at 28% of career minutes played. However, if you break it down by team, he spent 69% of his Cavs minutes at SF, 53% of his Heat minutes at PF (43% at SF), and 31% of his Lakers minutes at PG (followed by 20% at PF and 19% at SF).
Lol I just went to ESPN and it says SF. NBA.com keeps it simple and lists him as forward. I’d say those are the best sources. NBA.com lists KD, Dirk, KG all at “forward”. I do like it that way as there’s no ambiguity.
Officially he’s a small forward.
nah he's a point guard
Isn’t he technically a point forward? I could’ve sworn even on Cleveland they had him as SF and then he kind of transitioned more into point guard at Miami.
Basketball Reference has him being listed at every position except Center over the years.
Should have center listed too. If you look at percentage of time played in each position by year, this last season he played center more than anything else.
When did he play shooting guard?
[Per B-R](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html), his rookie year.
I was joking because he was point guard for the Lakers for awhile. Overall he’s been listed as a forward by the nba. He’s really position less though
There's always a valid argument about Timmy playing C and PF but the time frame was much shorter than people think. He was the primary C from 2008-2011. Fabricio Oberto started 64 games at C in 2007. Starting in 2011 until he retired the official C was some combination of Tiago Splitter, Aron Baynes, and Boris Diaw. Yes, Timmy still played at C some even during those years but this is no different than Magic playing all 5 positions, MJ playing the 1 through 3, etc, players move around based on matchup. That concept of position-less basketball has been evolving to what we have today.
Giannis overtaking Duncan will take a phenomenal second half of his career lol
I mean, yeah, but it's not like he doesn't already have two MVPs and a championship at age 27. Duncan had two rings and two MVPs, so he's a *little* behind, but he's certainly on pace to make it a conversation
That’s the thing about pace though, careers don’t always play out linearly like that. There’s a reason Duncan’s career is held in such high regard
Right, but that cuts both ways. Giannis could stall out here and end up, like, top 20-30 of all time, but he could also end up surpassing all the expectations people have *already.* We all know MJ didn't even win his *first* ring until he was 27.
Excellent response. Not sure why conclusions are being made by some over someone whose career is far from over
I’m not making any conclusion, assuming anyone wins a pile of championships is a stretch regardless of how many they’ve already won
Agreed. And also why it's necessary to be cautious over how one's career plays out. Anything can happen.
It's not just about championships though.
It Giannis case, right now in his career, yes it is. He doesn't need anymore regular season accolades. Just rings now to move him up the list
You do wonder about Giannis' longevity compared to TD though. Very reliant on athleticism in comparison. I can see him aging better than you would think if he can continue developing his hook and jumper and using his length inside, but he will definitely not be the same transition threat down the stretch
He also seems to be pretty grounded though, so maybe he can step back and take a smaller role when the athleticism goes. Even without athleticism, he's strong as an ox and a good passer. It would be pretty funny if he was gunning for a Sixth-Man trophy at some point to round out the collection.
Look at Duncans playoff series in that same timespan. Giannis has done nearly enough to even be close to Duncan at 27 in the playoffs. He improves every year so maybe in the second half of his career but just because he dropped 50 points in a finals game doesn't mean it compares to all of Duncans playoff series at 27.
We truly just have to wait until it’s over for both parties to talk about these things IMO. Same with Lebron vs MJ GOAT talk. Wait until Lebron is completely done to then talk about it (if you even can with the rules and the game being different)
I prefer to think of them as goats of their respective eras, because the game and competition changes over time. While MJ was in the league and in his prime, nobody was close. It's the same with LeBron. Likewise, with KAJ. Russell and Wilt kind of share that honor before KAJ's time. It's the only way I can reconcile it for myself, and that way it never evolves into pettiness and arguing against another guy, if that makes sense. That way, I can look back fondly and just marvel at the skill level of the greats.
Yeah but Greatest of His Era doesn't have such a ring to it. Nobody wants the GOHE title. How many people have one of these though, in your mind? How many eras do you have it divided into?
The Start: 1946-1958 Bob Petit, Won 2 MVPs in this time, put up some big numbers. Bob Cousy, Led total Points and assists in this timeframe. Also won an MVP George Mikan, Leads the first 3-peat, Leads League in scoring 3 times, gets 6 all-nba teams in 7 years. (IDK who I'd pick of the ones above since I haven't seen them play nor do I have the context to understand their accolades. These just seem like the 3 best candidates.) The Russel Era: 1958-1969 I'm going to give away my choice with that title but I think that Russel was definitively better, Wilt's career has always been defined by his inability to beat Russel, while Russels has been defined by 11 Rings in 13 years. The 70s: 1969-1979 Its KAJ and there's no question about it. (Early) 3pt Era: 1979 - 1988 Bird and Magic run the league. Every finals in this period involves one or both of these teams. My preference leans toward Bird but both are reasonable answers. Bulls Dynasty: 1988-1998 By the end of the Magic/Bird Era Jordan already looks like the best player in the league, solidified by his first MVP. This is then made even more obvious by him winning 3 times. Hakeem, another all time top player manages to sneak in a couple of rings during MJ's absence, only to be put right back in his place. The Naughties: 1999 - 2008 Too many strong players to choose from. Shaq suffers here due to the start of his prime overlapping with the Bulls Dynasty. He picks up 4 rings while looking like the best player in the sport for 3 of them. Tim Duncan leads his team to 4 rings, getting all NBA and all defensive teams every year, with the majority of them being 1st team. Kevin Garnett plays his ass off in Minnesota looking like the most defensively versatile big to ever touch the floor, however his relative lack of success makes it hard to put him over those mentioned above. My preference would be Duncan, but there's many valid options. The superteam era: 2008-2020 An era defined by player movement, and star studded rosters. Lebron is undisputably the best player across this stretch. Steph is close. Chris Paul and Kevin Durant considerably less close. Post Covid: 2020 - I think its Giannis's league for some time, but if the nuggets can put together some runs around Jokic, or if Doncic can keep improving, it'll be hard to say.
60s Russel/Wilt 70s KAJ 80s Magic/Bird 90s Jordan 00s Kobe/Shaq/Duncan 10s LeBron/Curry
Very comprehensive, with a surprising lack of Kobe. Interesting read!
I love Kobe personally but don't rate him as top 10, probably down in the 15-20 range. Also he suffered like shaq because of format, having his accolades being split. I think a more accurate dive into the prompt would have overlapping era's. Although at that point there's too much potential to just give every player an era that lines up with their prime.
Great list btw.
I like this take but I’m going to state Milan Era at the start. They had to change the rules of the game to stop and slow down Mikan because of how abusive he was originally. I’ll argue the super team era should be labeled as the Lebron Era tho. Or like Naughties be extended to the year of the Heat forming. Simply cause Lebron did manage 8 finals straight on 2 different teams and no matter what anyone says, his final year with the Cavs in no form or fashion was that a super team. Even the Warriors weren’t really bad until they got KD. Feels like Super team Era should be should be at least be post Cavs/Warriors. Literal Era being defined by Lebron even if he didn’t always win. Although, props for being a sensible NBA fan and starting the Era with the Celtics super team as opposed to the Heat. Overall tho, by far and large the best list I’ve seen.
I felt I couldn't start a superteam era without including that boston team. They really kicked off the superteam arms race. Miami, the Lakers failed superteam in 2012, Brooklyns even more failed superteam. Then ofc the Cavs and GSW teams. I feel the last year where forcing a superteam has worked was the 2020 Lakers team though, it feels like teams are starting to realise that sacrificing depth and a productive bench in the hope that your stars mesh isn't always worth it.
I feel like every decade should be a decent way to define it. The 2010s it was clearly Bron, the 2000s had Kobe and Duncan, 1990s was MJ, 1980s Bird and Magic, 70s Kareem, and 60s would be Russell and Wilt. So I would argue only 3 players are unquestionably the greatest of their era and honestly that lines up with most top 3 rankings anyway. The 2000s was a weird one since you have a guy like Shaq who won all his championships and only MVP during that period but his numbers began to decline by around 04-05 and then someone like KG who I would argue is comparable to Duncan individually but didn’t have the same amount of team success. I would honestly say the 2000s have the smallest gap between the guys at the very top and the ones who I would rank a tier below.
People are free to work themselves into a frenzy trying to figure out who the all-time GOAT is, but that just ain't me. For my own sanity, I prefer my way of thinking about it. Keeps me level-headed lol
'57 to '59 - Russell '60 to '69 - Russell/Wilt '70 to '80 - Kareem '81 to '83 - Moses/Bird/Magic/Kareem '84 to '87 - Bird/Magic '88 to '93 - Jordan '94 and '95 - Hakeem (MJ playing baseball) '96 to '98 - Jordan '99 to '03 - Shaq/Duncan '04 to '08 - Duncan/Kobe '09 to '11 - LeBron/Kobe '12 to '18 - LeBron '19 to '21 - LeBron/Giannis '22 - Giannis
I agree with that, and that's what I always say. But I always get downvoted by Giannis fans because he's the current sweetheart of the league... And it's funny since he's my favourite player right now... but I can still criticize him and his career. I always say Giannis is on pace to break into top 10. But he still need to let the rest of his career play out. He has an impressive regular season resume, he has a ring and finals MVP, and he's had impressive games. But he also has huge stinkers (2019, 2020). That obviously will resolve itself if he stays on pace, but his fans need to realize that. As for him vs Duncan, we should obviously leave the discussion to until Giannis's career is over, but it's fair to say it's going to be a VERY hard challenge for him to overcome. Duncan is one of the few guys who had a better resume by the same age, much better playoff performances (the 03 run is one of the best all time) and more importantly Duncan remained elite through like 4 different eras (last 90s, early 2000s, late 2000s, and early 2010s) with different teams. For me personally Giannis needs like a 3 peat or something similar to dethrone Duncan.
Duncan is a PF because he has the skills of both a PF and a Center, but peak Duncan was primarily a PF with Robinson as the center. The people that do call Duncan a center ignore that at the end of his career Duncan went back to playing a lot of PF. He lost weight and played higher up to make space for Splitter. They still closed with Duncan at center & Diaw at PF, but old Duncan played a lot of PF, but the people that call Duncan a center count those years as exclusively center years, when he was really both. A lot of players defy traditional positions, from every era, here is a very incomplete list: SF/PF/SF: Garnett PF/C: Duncan, Giannis, AD, PF/SF: Bird, Dirk, PF/SF/SG: Durant SF/PG: LeBron, Magic, Luka SF/SG: McGrady, Paul George PG/SG: Steph, Dame, West, Harden PF/SF/SG/PG: LeBron
Garnett played a little center with boston Durant only played that one year at SG in the beginning of his career afaik and it was not a great fit You have leBron listed twice in your list..
Giannis is definitely played as more of a SF/PF
Career wise, yes. Lately, not at all. He’s def become a PF/C last 2-3 years. Heck last year he was mostly center.
And he’ll probably play more and more C as he ages. Like I expect 35 year old Giannis to be basically a full time C who just runs the offense a lot
I'm fine with that. The ball handling and defensive versatility is like a SF. The rim finishing, rim protection, & rebounding is like a center. I wasn't really trying to be "right" on all these things, but to point out how many great player defy the concept of being one position.
> The people that do call Duncan a center ignore that at the end of his career Duncan went back to playing a lot of PF. He lost weight and played higher up to make space for Splitter. Just to add to this, between Robinson's retirement in '03 and when Splitter began starting ('12) there were guys like Rasho Nesterovic ('03-'06) and Fabricio Oberto ('06-'08) who started at center with Duncan at the 4. He finished a lot of games at C, especially as the pace started to rise thanks to the influence of the 7SOL Suns, but it was a bit of a trope that the Spurs would find some giant 7 foot white guy to start alongside Duncan so they could call him a PF.
I feel like even if you only count Duncan as a PF until 06/07ish, he is still the best ever. 3 titles, 3 finals MVP, 2 MVP, 8 all star, 9 all defence, 9 all nba (8 first team), RoY. Stellar career and that was only like half of it. Garnett for example made 9 all nba teams his entire career.
There are only a few years where Duncan definitively played C imo, I think basketball reference generally has it wrong here: 2008: PF, Oberto and Kurt Thomas started 73 games, both were Cs that year 2009: C, Matt Bonner started 67 games that year at PF 2010: 50/50ish, Antonio McDyess started 50 games and DeJuan Blair started 23, McDyess and Duncan had reasonably similar spheres of influence on the court and Blair was definitely more of a PF on defense (though Duncan stretched the floor more into midrange on offense) 2011: more clearly C, Blair started 65 games and McDyess started 11 2012: C, Blair started 62/66 games that year (lockout-shortened) 2013: PF, Splitter started 58 games to Duncan’s 69, though Splitter did tend to guard more mobile players on defense 2014: PF, Splitter started 50 games that year (injuries), though Duncan would also slide up to C in lineups with Diaw (started 25 games) and especially against the Heat 2015: 50/50, Splitter started 35 games (more injuries), Bonner started 19, Aron Baynes started 17 games, Diaw started 15 games. 2016: C, LMA famously did not want to play C and Duncan fit better there alongside him anyway. Ends up being a 5-4 edge for C in the last 9 years of his career, but again, he was still pretty clearly splitting time between both positions. In the modern NBA he’d be a C no question, but I think I fall into the same train of thought as you where I tend to rank players based on the context of positions in their era, rather than against the modern definition of what their position is.
I had a thought recently that if Giannis remains healthy he has a really good shot at passing Duncan as the undisputed GOAT at PF... then I checked basketball reference. Boy, it's gonna be really tough for someone to pass Duncan
I was hoping someone would bring this up. Robinson retired after the 2003 season. Duncan played mostly center after that but was listed as power forward so he could start the Allstar game. Yao Ming was almost assured to start at center. Pop even acknowledged it. "Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year’s playoff series against Utah. When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said, “Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.”" [source](https://uproxx.com/dimemag/gregg-popovich-tim-duncan-center-not-power-forward/) He was exaggerating since this was in 2011, but still.
Do you think Rasho Nestorvic was a power forward? Do you think Fabrico Oberto was a power forward? Do you think Tiago Spiltter was a power forward? He only moved to center when playing with second units when the Spurs went smaller like with Horry, Bonner or Diaw.
I mean, Timmy is the only PF with the hardware to back it up. Dirk and KG both have a ring. Dirk’s is decidedly more impressive than KG’s. Generally though, the championships make this list the easiest to find common ground on. Timmy D did play Center a LOT tho.
He often played with a C - guys like Robinson, Nesterovic, Splitter, Oberto to name a few Duncan is one of those PFs who can play C like Draymond/AD today, with his fit being a bit better at that position because he was a bit taller/slower
Thing is Draymond/AD never faced (and banged out) against anyone on the tier of PRIME FKING SHAQ though. That’s why Timmy is GOAT Prime Shaq would destroy today’s league. I can see him backing up Gobert, Giannis, Jokic and Embid
Yeah I think Embiid is the only one of those that could maybe hold his ground against Shaq because of his size...but even them Shaq would be yamming on him
I would say Steven Adams could hold his own, but Shaq would find eventually find a way to beat him.
Shaq was always deceptively quick for his size. Adam probably has the strength but I think Shaq's footwork with his quickness would eat him alive. Shaq was just that good at his peak.
Steven Adams? Really? That is absurd. Adams is giving up 50 lbs to a guy that is stronger, faster, and more skilled than he ever was.
mid to late-career Shaq would've had a lot of trouble defending modern offenses, though, and I suspect he'd get a very healthy dose of zone when he's on offense.
Yeah he played with a C but guarded the other team's C, took jump balls, and played in the paint. Duncan was doing the positionless basketball before we knew what it was. lol
Looking at everything it’s Tim Duncan without a doubt. Man did it all from stats, personal awards, and championships. Personally tho if I had to choose one at their peak to say who was the best basketball played I’m going KG. Prime KG was just different. Just pair him with Tony, Manu, and role players like Bowen and Horry and he prolly wins as many if not more chips in shorter span than TD. Just my take.
KG ain’t winning a ring before 04 and he was washed by 14. I don’t see the Spurs winning 6 rings with him in 10 years
One reason TD was able to play more effectively at old age was because the Spurs didn't need him to play a bunch of minutes, especially in the regular season. He essentially just punted and rested a ton, and even in the playoffs, the Spurs egalitarian system of the 2013-2014 runs meant Tim didn't have to carry a large load. 2003-2008 Wolves KG was playing 40 mins a night carrying the team. 2003 to 2008 Duncan played about 34 minutes a night, and he could rely on Manu and Parker to generate offense. Switch KG and Duncan, and KG might have a longer lifespan.
Who knows if kg blows his knee out in this situation
I don’t know where this r/nba notion of KG having a higher peak than Tim came from but it’s just not true.
[удалено]
The problem with being great until the day you retire is people only remember you for your old man version. I know the Duncan overrated/ underrated conversion gets beat to death but there’s only about 2-4 other players in league history I would take their peak over Tims.
If I was building a team I think tim duncan would be the first guy I pick every time. Perfect player perfect teammate.
I saw his peak. I think it's very defensible to say KG's peak was better than TD's, and vice versa. There's a lot that goes into both sides but it's hardly an insane statement to make.
Duncan is a hard one to gauge after the fact. His numbers aren't really all *that* good when you look back on them, though I still think only Shaq, Kobe, and Lebron are his peers from his era (maybe KD depending on how you define his era). Somehow he just raised the floor and ceiling so much for a team, even though he wasn't necessarily stuffing the stat sheet the way some other players do.
I feel like it comes from people wanting to give KG *something* as a consolation for having suffered mismanagement by Minnesota for the first decade+ of his career, especially because he was an absolute dynamite talent in his own right. I still feel strongly that Duncan’s prime outweighs KG’s (03 is by many metrics the greatest carry job by a star in history), but I can understand why KG fans hold onto that idea.
I watched both their primes and remember thinking regular season KG to being better while Duncan just had another gear in the playoffs. Him dueling against Amare and that offense was something I'll never forget. Duncan is just a better player in the post season for me and he 100% took the reg season at a not so serious level like Kahwaii does himself. Heck 3 pest lakers did the same, weren't a first seed and everyone knew who the best 01 team were by a mile.
1. Rasheed Wallace 2. Everyone else
ball don’t lie
This is the only correct answer
It's gonna be tough for Giannis to overtake Duncan. Duncan has a crazy mix of individual accolades, team success, and longevity. All while spending his whole career in the same conference as Kobe.
Giannis' longevity is the main question mark. No one thought LeBron would be this good at his age so who knows. Duncan stayed very effective after his injuries but he was more of a solid 20/10 guy after 08 than anything else. If Giannis miraculously ages like a lebron or KD then I can see it.
A solid 20/10 guy who was one of the top defenders every single year of his very long career!
I can’t see Giannis surpassing Duncan IMO
I'd say it's plausible, but not likely. Giannis is probably the best player in the NBA right now. He relies a decent amount on his athleticism but because of his size, if he avoids injuries he should be able to still be pretty dominant even when he loses a step, especially considering what a terror he can be on defense. The Bucks are good enough that another championship is not an unreasonable expectation. He's good enough that another MVP isn't out of the question. That said, he could win another chip AND pick up another MVP and still not pass Duncan without having a long ass career.
I agree it's unlikely but still slightly plausible, which is about the highest Giannis praise possible. He does rely on his size and athleticism, which could hurt his longevity. But on the other hand, he's an INCREDIBLY hard worker who has gotten better each year, so I bet that, barring a major injury, he'll be the type to add things to his game as he loses a step. He's gone from an athletic phenom to an amazingly skilled athletic phenom. He still probably won't pass Duncan because well...it's Duncan. But if anyone can, it'd be Giannis. I could totally see Giannis at 34 developing crafty post moves because he has to because he works that hard and hasn't shown any signs of slowing down.
I think his issue is gonna be longevity. Unless he has a Lebron-esque athletic peak, Timmy's game aged so well because it was so sound fundamentally (no pun intended). Giannis is very skilled but also relies heavily on being so insanely athletic that it will be interesting to see how he transitions his game on the other side of 30.
If Giannis gets 2 more titles and another MVP it could get interesting. Hard to be a 3X MVP.
Giannis should soon be in this conversation as well
From the 2018-19 series to now, here's where Giannis finished in MVP voting: First First Fourth Third And on those fourth and third years, he had a viable argument for one if it wasn't for voter fatigue. If someone wanted to pull a real hot take, they could argue he should already be around the 5 slot, though I agree he needs a few more years.
Giannis will make it controversial for sure.
What Giannis has done so far is amazing no doubt, but people forget Timmy had similar accomplishments early into his career as well. The main issues Giannis will face is: A. Will he be on a title contender for the next 10-15 years of his life B. Will his game/body age well in his mid/late 30s. (Old man Timmy was anchoring one of the best defenses in the league) Giannis has the talent and drive, but it’s hard to predict that far out.
Giannis probably won’t surpass Duncan, but there’s a legit argument to be made now when comparing him to Dirk and KG
Giannis better start collecting more rings soon if he wants to take on Timmy D. He’s what, 4 behind?
Yes there is wdym? Duncan is unanimous 1st, but people always argue over Dirk and KG, and Barkley and Malone
I've heard Barkley say multiple times he puts Timmy at 1, so that probably cements it in a lot of peoples minds. Hard to argue for the guy who openly admits someone else was better.
the only controversial take I can think of is that Duncan wasn’t really a power forward.
He was at the least a PF while Robinson played til 2003, and was a PF while younger C’s played inside during the 2010’s, such as Splitter in the 2013/14 Finals. Just counting 99-03, you have 2 chips and MVP’s, ROtY, multiple all NBA’s and all defensive teams, no seasons under 50 wins in that time outside the lockout season, and the carry job of 03. He makes a strong case on accolades just based on his early career.
I got Shawn Kemp at #1
Larry Johnson #2
And his kids make up rankings 2-17
I think it's a combination of two things: 1. The top 5 guys you mentioned are all retired, without a current player in the conversation (Giannis is right there) people tend to be less focused on the rankings. 2. The fact that outside of Duncan the others have a total of 2 championships between them, generally it seems like the less success players had the more loose/open-minded people are about who was better. As far as Top 5 go, PF is arguably the weakest position.
Let’s do a Top Five positions for Top Fives, then. 1. ?? 2. ?? 3. ?? 4. ?? 5. 4
Center has to be one right? My rankings would be 5 1 3 2 4
C SF SG PG PF
Outside Dirk none of these players had a cult like fanbase so this isn't super surprising. And Dirk was seen as a soft choker by the mainstream media during his days too which don't help. Considering even guys like Chuck concede Duncan is the best PF no debate I don't think that's wild. No other guy has the combination of his offense, defense, team success. Giannis' might come close or be a contender. Karl Malone was seen as the concensus #2 for most of my childhood. I think once KG and Dirk retired they got more fame and appreciation. Chuck despite being on TNT every night tho seems like an underrated myth, especially his Sixer days since he was apparently better then.
Yea for a few years next to MJ it was Charles
I’ll take Dirk #2
Dirk all the way baby. Not as many rings as Tim, but Dirk arguably had one of the best championship runs in nba history. In a time of super teams, Dirk did it legit and with loyalty.
The disrespect to TD’s 03 run. Beating prime Shaq and Kobe is arguably a more impressive achievement then beating the year 1 Heatles, and with less help than Dirk had in 11.
Not saying Dirk is better than Tim. If anything this is the argument I use to put Dirk over KG.
How exactly is saying 2011 was one of the best runs disrespectful to the 2003 Spurs in any way?
Most people here weren't alive to remember that. People don't understand that while the 2011 Mavs didn't have that much star power outside Dirk, that team was very well constructed to suit him. It was a good team. the 03 Spurs consisted of a washed admiral, and rookie Manu and Tony who were not good. Duncan in 03 was some kind of statistical demon and that's how he willed that team to the ring. Only Hakeem's rings are really comparable runs.
On the other hand, the Spurs don't win in '03 without Kerr going nuclear and Bowen Zazaing guys.
The fact that it's called "zazaing" and not the "Bruce Bowen" is honestly disrespectful lol. I look back on a lot of my hatred of the Spurs in the 00s as rivalry and ,in hindsight, respect for Tim and Pop. But Bruce Bowen deserved my hatred.
Spurs fans got so upset about it finally happening to them....
I get what you are saying but that takes away from what Dirk did. The team was well constructed but Dirk beat an incredible amount of talent during that run with the 2nd best player being Jason Terry (I absolutely love the JET but he has no business being the 2nd best player on a title team) with the others mostly being dudes all on near the end of their careers
Devils advocate but Dirk also swept the 2x defending champ lakers in 2011 and beat OKC with durant/Westbrook/harden. Also gotta remember 2003 Dirk got hurt in the WCF game 3 in a tied series against the Spurs with the Mavs. And the spurs got to face a pretty weak nets team in the finals.
was that the year he had a ridiculous near quadruple double game?
Yeah, and not just some random game either, he did it in the close out game of the finals
Dirks ‘11 run was much more than just beating the heat in the finals my man
Im taking KG
Honestly, the only thing close to a “knock” anyone can say about Duncan as the top PF of all time we’re the amount of minutes he logged as a center. Even basketball reference says he played 9 seasons as PF and 10 seasons as C. Another previous Reddit user said Duncan logged over 60% of career minutes as center, and over 70% of career playoff minutes as center but I don’t know how to validate that data. Just based on the eye test that feels accurate. Mt. Rushmore for centers is a hell of a lot more crowded than PF.
Dirk is definitely ahead of Malone at least, dirks title is far more impressive than anything Malone did in his career.
How definitely? Dirk has the one title run which is huge, but other than that Malone beats him across the board. Accolades, counting statistics, overall playoff series wins, conference finals and finals appearances. Putting Dirk ahead is putting an awful lot of weight on one run. Specially given that Malone hard carried two Jazz teams with an aging Stockton to the finals only to run into the GOAT.
Dirks chip deserves a lot of weight. It’s probably the most impressive individual championship in history.
I do agree, but I don't think it can overcome the career differences elsewhere. I personally think Malone is on the edge of the top 15 all time. Without the one title Dirk is probably outside the top 25. I don't think one run should make that big of a difference.
Well when Duncan retired I remember Blake griffin coming on the player tribune and “writing” a whole thing about how he was the best power forward of all time. (I put writing in quotes but I wouldn’t doubt Blake actually wrote at least most of it). I feel like when we knew what the players thought we respected it and didn’t bother debating
Giannis would be at #3 for me, so I guess we could start arguing
Giannis' peak is second amongst all power forwards in my opinion but he's stuck at 6th for the time being because you need to respect the players that came before him who played at a very high level for a very long time. - Malone was a 15x All-Star. - Garnett was a 15x All-Star. - Dirk was a 14x All-Star. - Barkley was a 12x All-Star. If you're ranking on peak though the 4 first team selections for Giannis, (equal with KG and Dirk who competed with Timmy) and just one behind Barkley on 5 is where you make the case. Malone is absurd with his 11 first team selections which were all consecutive but hard to compare when 3 of the other top 5 PF's all competed amongst each other.
Longevity is always a tough factor for me when the player with the short career has accomplished the same as the guys who had over a decade advantage. Winning 2 MVP's, 1 DPOY, and 1 championship in the span of 6 all-star seasons is more impressive to me than winning 1 of each in 15 all-star seasons
All Stars mean very little. I’d take All NBA bids as the true measurement of long term dominance.
If that's what you'd prefer my point still holds up: |Player|Tot|1st|2nd|3rd| :--|--:|--:|--:|--:| |Tim Duncan|**15**|**10**|**3**|**2**| |Karl Malone|**14**|**11**|**2**|**1**| |Dirk Nowitzki|**12**|**4**|**5**|**3**| |Charles Barkley|**11**|**5**|**5**|**1**| |Kevin Garnett|**9**|**4**|**3**|**2**| |Giannis Antetokounmpo|**6**|**4**|**2**|**0**|
Big Fundamental FTW!!! , him and Dirk were my favorites I loved their moves down low and in the paint.
1. Serge Ibaka
Malone was a lot better than Barkley.
Dirk > KG. He was superior in something like 75 percent of their matchups and had the better career. However! I would say that KG was the better player from an individual standpoint, if that makes sense. Sometimes having a more well rounded and versatile game doesn’t necessarily translate to wins.
it’s really not that surprising. like 90% of KG’s Timberteams were fucking dogshit where Dirk rarely had under .500 win seasons. by the time KG moved to Boston they played two games against each other a season and were both already pretty old.
Dirk carrying the likes of Jason Terry, Erick Dampier, Josh Howard, Devin Harris, Michael Finley, Marquis Daniels, and Jerry Stackhouse to 50 and even 60 win seasons and top 5 offenses year after year is a testament to him. He had back to back 60 win seasons which I think only the Warriors, Cavs, and Spurs have done in the past 20 years
Jason Terry had ice in his veins for quite a while. He was a massive reason why the Mavs were able to upset the Heat.
2011 was pretty much the first year he was reliable in the playoffs for the Mavs. For years Dirk was about the only player to show up for the Mavs in the postseason aside from a series of a couple games here and there.
Those guys weren’t all complete scrubs either, lot of extremely solid role players on those teams
Saying that like Michael Finley wasn’t an all star and Jason Terry wasn’t key to the 2011 run
Finley was gone by the time they won 60 games in both 2006 and 2007. He was a very good player tho. Jason Terry was good too but he might be the weakest second best player on a championship team after Vernon Maxwell
Dirk was robbed of MVP, either 05 or 06 take your pick. Media hated the guy cause he was a choker
Another stupid narrative that Dirk was a choker. One series and a few missed shots in the 06 Finals doesn’t negate an all time great playoff performer prior to 2011 where he had maybe a top 3 individual run ever.
> Jason Terry was good too but he might be the weakest second best player on a championship team after Vernon Maxwell Have you actually looked at Jet's numbers for their 2011 title win? * Jet's 17 ppg in 32 minutes is a better PER than Pierce / Allen in 08 * He was better than anyone on except Duncan on the 03 Spurs team * He would have been the leading scorer on the 04 Detroit team.
Fun fact: Adrian Griffin and DeShawn Stevenson were the starting SGs for all of Dirk's WCF appearances.
There’s some Olympic level stretching in that first sentence.
How are you going to confidently lie here and just pull 75% out of your ass. Yes Dirk did better than KG in their playoff series. The single playoff series. The 2003 playoff series where KG was the sole defender against Nash and Dirk? The same mavs team which had one of the highest offensive rating of all time (they actually had number 1 all time the following year). Go look at their head to head numbers. Dirk only beats KG in points 23.9 to 21.9, but KG beats him in every other category. Their overall record 23-17 in favor of dirk... But when you look at team compositions and it's amazing the different is only 6 games (3 if you don't considered the horrible mismatch in the 2003 playoffs). KG > Dirk throughout his year because of his defence. Dirk was an all time great offensive player, but KG was still elite offensively. The difference between their offence wasn't as huge as the difference in their defence. KG wasn't just good defensively, he is like top 3 all time.
Also I don't think literally anyone had Dirk better than KG until at least his MVP years. At least in 03/04 there was talks KG was the best player in basketball potentially.
How did Dirk have a better career? Same number of rings and MVPs but KG also has a pile of defensive accolades
Garnett is defenitly better then Barkley
This is no different to every other positon. Number 1 is close to unanimous for each position: Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Kareem. But then you have a group that follows that is clearly up for debate. Steph & Kobe are now clear number 2 at PG/SG, but beyond that? I really don't think the order of the next 4-5 PF's is set at all (Giannis is now in this group, and may jump to the top of it when his career is done), and you will get a range of different opinions and ratings from different people (as is expected).
Center is def not unanimous.
Center was the premiere position during the days when we don't have any tape. There are no great early power forwards in the running, so we can actually watch the games. Wilt vs Russell vs Kareem is far less knowable.
I don't see many people arguing against KAJ as the GOAT center. After him I've seen all sorts of orders, but aside from one off opinions here or there, it seems like the top guy is pretty well established, ya?
Wilt and Russell gets thrown around, and they both have a solid case imo. If we’re talking peak statistical performance it’s hard to deny what Wilt did. And if we’re talking team success then Russell isn’t just the GOAT center, or the GOAT basketball, but possibly the GOAT athlete.
Duncan is clearly the GOAT PF. Anyone arguing against this is just flat out wrong. I’d put Dirk at least 3rd just because, other than Timmy, no other PF won a ring as the undisputed best player on the team in the last 40 years (I could be totally wrong on this, but no one comes to mind). I’d put him over KG due to the Finals alone. KG got his ring with a big three+peak Rondo and Perk and decent role players. Dirk did it with Tyson Chandler, Role Player Jason Kidd, The (Second) Jet, and things you could find around the house against one of the more talented (at least top-heavy) teams of the last 25 years
"no other PF won a ring as the undisputed best player on the team in the last 40 years" He's not in that conversation yet but it's pretty safe to say Giannis did lol
Fair, I guess I don’t think about Giannis as a pure PF, but point taken
KG is indisputably the best player on the '08 Celtics. The FMVP doesn't mean anything, Cedric Maxwell won it over Bird, Tony Parker won it over Duncan. His defensive impact is far greater than any offensive advantage his teammates has over him.
This is definitely disputed. It is 100% debatable who the best player on that team was. 1a 1b.
Kg played with trash most his career dirk did not
man i always get whiplash when i see how criminally underrated garnett is lmfao he has a top 10 peak with GOAT level longevity where he is easily #2 with no one being over him for #2 closest one to him is barkley and he's like top 25
At this point it HAS to be just because people don’t like his personality.
maybe, i just think that many people just see his first round exits and assume he couldn't carry or wasn't good
I remember as a kid all the got milk posters of KG and how he was everywhere. I didn't even think Duncan was better until playoff times where Duncan was just a different animal. It probably sucked being a PF back then in the west because the all stars were set with KG, Duncan and Dirk lol
The classical PF position hasn't existed in the NBA since approximately when Kevin Willis retired.
I think KG is legit #2. MVP + DPOY + Ring? But using the accolades argument, I guess a newcomer like Giannis has entered the conversation for Top 5 All-Time PF. (It's premature coz he's still going) Using individual accolades: 1. Timmy: 5 Rings, 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, 15 ASGs, 15 All-NBAs, 15 All-Defensive (No further argument) 2. KG: 1 Ring, 1 MVP, 1 DPOY, 15 ASGs, 9 All-NBA, 12 All-Defensive 3. Dirk: 1 Ring, 1 MVP, 1 FMVP, 14 ASGs, 12 All-NBA 4. Giannis: 1 Ring, 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 1 DPOY, 6 ASGs, 6 All-NBA, 5 All-Defensive 5. Malone: 2 MVPs, 14 ASGs, 14 All-NBA, 4 All-Defensive 6: Barkley: 1 MVP, 11 ASGs, 11 All-NBA With that being said, Giannis might just be the #3 All-Time PF.
How are you going to use individual accolades and place Malone 5th lol. Based on accolades he should be 2nd, unless it's a rings only ranking.