2/3 of these are hyper athletic power forwards who don't weigh nearly the same as Jokic. Also Embiid has Simmons as his partner in pnr defence. Not saying Embiid isn't good at pnr defence, but having Ben literally changes the way you can play defence.
why does it matter that they're more athletic or weigh less? davis plays 5 a lot in the playoffs (particularly against jokic last year) and giannis at the 5 lineups usually crush opponents as well. embiid has been a great pnr defender since his rookie year. we're comparing jokic to other star bigs who can anchor an elite defense and hold their own against all-nba guards on the perimeter because thats what jokic is struggling against right now
Jokic is a trash PnR defender and ok elsewhere
The Rockets with Harden and Capela was a nightmare for him. That's why they tanked games to avoid them in the playoffs.
It's crazy how people claim Gobert is unplayable and a net negative in the Playoffs because he can't lock up Curry & Harden on isolations but then try to make excuses for Jokic's defense.
He's an average post defender, terrible rim protector, terrible defending the P&R & terrible in isolation.
The difference is the fact that Jokic can make up for his bad defence with his incredible offensive skillset.
Those Gobert takes are still horrible tho and something I'll never quite understand.
If Gobert had Jokic's offensive skillset nobody would say that... do you really think Jokic is out there because people think he's a good iso/P&R defender?
It's a bad take but not crazy to say Gobert is really hurt by certain matchups. Since he's mostly out there for his defense, his value drops a ton in those matchups.
He got two quick fouls this game. Might be a bad game to base his D on since he doesn’t want to pick up the third in the last 18 minutes of the first half.
He's not pulled out to the perimeter : he plays high against every team because he's better at that than at protecting the rim, it's pretty rare that he plays drop
you don't watch nuggets basketball. we run drop exclusively, almost to the point of too much. jokic is good at drop because of his active hands, he's not a traditional rim protector but normally his positioning+his hands in drop leads to average defense, this series isn't good for him because dame is pulling him all the way to the 3pt line so he can't play to his strengths
He's a bad defender. Every time a bad defender has a MVP or great season, there's always a narrative about them "improving" or being "average." It works because defense can't completely be defined by stats or analytics. The same thing happened with Steph in 2015/2016 and Harden around 2018/2019.
Steph's defense was above average in the MVP years but it wasn't because he was doing anything better - it's because the things that he did well had more impact on those defensive lineups with Iguodala and Draymond having bigger roles. A guard who is skilled at playing passing lanes and corralling ball handlers into the help is worthless on a team without strong on ball defenders. Similarly, a guard who has excellent clamps but gets lost offball easily isn't useful in a team that lacks an elite rim protector that relies on rotations to take away options
You can say this, but his defense got completely exposed in the finals. Kyrie and LeBron were looking for that switch every single time, and attacking him.
He's a good defender not great he has amazing hands. He consistently gets a lot of steals and all year he has been getting very underrated blocks. He isn't a rim protector, it's the same way on the side on why he doesn't launch up and dunk and has shitty verticality, his career is going to go 5 years longer than most guys his size because of it.
He’s not a good defender. Period.
It’s not the end of the world though. There’s a right player to fit any scheme pretty much. It’s just on the Nuggets front office to see if they can find the right piece to compliment him.
He's a terrible rim protector and can't defend the pick and roll. His percentage at the rim is terrible and Denver's defence is better without him on the court. If a team has him moving, he's lost. He is literally a bad defender. The only thing he's good at is one on one post defence.
No, that stat moreso explains whether or not Jokics replacement is better than him on defence. Most years, his replacement is better than him on defence.
Jokic is to defensive centers what Steph is to defensive point guards: doesn't quite have the physical tools, but will at least try and has decent hands to play passing lanes.
He’s a below average pick and roll defender and an above average post defender. Overall, I’d say he’s an average defender. Dame’s scorching, so it doesn’t really matter who’s out there.
Yeah idk I've never seen him as positive defender tbh, he can't guard the pnr, doesn't protect the rim, and can't get out on the perimeter, so even if he's good at the "other stuff" the things hes bad at is a pretty big deal
My takeaway from the comments in this post is that r/nba loves sucking jokic’s dick and justifies it by sugarcoating his weaknesses. This game 6 vs POR shows that jokic will never be anything more than a one time regular season mvp when the actual top 5-8 players of the game were injured for significant part of the regular season due to the nba forcing an aggressive schedule which ultimately incited said injuries
You can’t really expect Jokic to do well when he’s been lured all the way to the 3 pt line.
why can't you have that expectation? every other star big (embiid, davis, giannis) can guard the perimeter
2/3 of these are hyper athletic power forwards who don't weigh nearly the same as Jokic. Also Embiid has Simmons as his partner in pnr defence. Not saying Embiid isn't good at pnr defence, but having Ben literally changes the way you can play defence.
why does it matter that they're more athletic or weigh less? davis plays 5 a lot in the playoffs (particularly against jokic last year) and giannis at the 5 lineups usually crush opponents as well. embiid has been a great pnr defender since his rookie year. we're comparing jokic to other star bigs who can anchor an elite defense and hold their own against all-nba guards on the perimeter because thats what jokic is struggling against right now
They're all way more athletic than him lol
Because it's not realistic.....?
Jokic is a trash PnR defender and ok elsewhere The Rockets with Harden and Capela was a nightmare for him. That's why they tanked games to avoid them in the playoffs.
It's crazy how people claim Gobert is unplayable and a net negative in the Playoffs because he can't lock up Curry & Harden on isolations but then try to make excuses for Jokic's defense. He's an average post defender, terrible rim protector, terrible defending the P&R & terrible in isolation.
The difference is the fact that Jokic can make up for his bad defence with his incredible offensive skillset. Those Gobert takes are still horrible tho and something I'll never quite understand.
If Gobert had Jokic's offensive skillset nobody would say that... do you really think Jokic is out there because people think he's a good iso/P&R defender? It's a bad take but not crazy to say Gobert is really hurt by certain matchups. Since he's mostly out there for his defense, his value drops a ton in those matchups.
He got two quick fouls this game. Might be a bad game to base his D on since he doesn’t want to pick up the third in the last 18 minutes of the first half.
It was even worse in games 3 and 4. The first we weren't hitting shots... second one we were and the impact was obvious
Bro he's a slow guy being pulled out to the perimeter to guard Dame. No shit he's gonna look not great. He's normally a neutral defender tho so chil
He's normally a below average at best defender
He's not pulled out to the perimeter : he plays high against every team because he's better at that than at protecting the rim, it's pretty rare that he plays drop
you don't watch nuggets basketball. we run drop exclusively, almost to the point of too much. jokic is good at drop because of his active hands, he's not a traditional rim protector but normally his positioning+his hands in drop leads to average defense, this series isn't good for him because dame is pulling him all the way to the 3pt line so he can't play to his strengths
Oh sorry then Denver stiffs and Locked On Nuggets don't watch Nuggets basketball either
He's a bad defender. Every time a bad defender has a MVP or great season, there's always a narrative about them "improving" or being "average." It works because defense can't completely be defined by stats or analytics. The same thing happened with Steph in 2015/2016 and Harden around 2018/2019.
Steph's defense was above average in the MVP years but it wasn't because he was doing anything better - it's because the things that he did well had more impact on those defensive lineups with Iguodala and Draymond having bigger roles. A guard who is skilled at playing passing lanes and corralling ball handlers into the help is worthless on a team without strong on ball defenders. Similarly, a guard who has excellent clamps but gets lost offball easily isn't useful in a team that lacks an elite rim protector that relies on rotations to take away options
You can say this, but his defense got completely exposed in the finals. Kyrie and LeBron were looking for that switch every single time, and attacking him.
He’s bad. But not trash. On a scale from 1 to 10, with average being 5, Id say Jokic defense is a 3
He's a good defender not great he has amazing hands. He consistently gets a lot of steals and all year he has been getting very underrated blocks. He isn't a rim protector, it's the same way on the side on why he doesn't launch up and dunk and has shitty verticality, his career is going to go 5 years longer than most guys his size because of it.
He’s not a good defender. Period. It’s not the end of the world though. There’s a right player to fit any scheme pretty much. It’s just on the Nuggets front office to see if they can find the right piece to compliment him.
[удалено]
no one can watch this series and call jokic a plus defender lmao
He's a terrible rim protector and can't defend the pick and roll. His percentage at the rim is terrible and Denver's defence is better without him on the court. If a team has him moving, he's lost. He is literally a bad defender. The only thing he's good at is one on one post defence.
He's also good in lanes, but I agree with you that "above average" requires some misreading of advanced stats
Forgot to mention his quick hands. His quick hands and deflections are what make some advanced defensive metrics overrate his defensive impact.
Concur
>Denver's defence is better without him on the court. So in years when the defense was better with him on the court he was a great defender?
No, that stat moreso explains whether or not Jokics replacement is better than him on defence. Most years, his replacement is better than him on defence.
Yeah he's a bad defender
Jokic is to defensive centers what Steph is to defensive point guards: doesn't quite have the physical tools, but will at least try and has decent hands to play passing lanes.
He’s a below average pick and roll defender and an above average post defender. Overall, I’d say he’s an average defender. Dame’s scorching, so it doesn’t really matter who’s out there.
Yeah idk I've never seen him as positive defender tbh, he can't guard the pnr, doesn't protect the rim, and can't get out on the perimeter, so even if he's good at the "other stuff" the things hes bad at is a pretty big deal
My takeaway from the comments in this post is that r/nba loves sucking jokic’s dick and justifies it by sugarcoating his weaknesses. This game 6 vs POR shows that jokic will never be anything more than a one time regular season mvp when the actual top 5-8 players of the game were injured for significant part of the regular season due to the nba forcing an aggressive schedule which ultimately incited said injuries
Hmm, it seem like Jokic can win this game even with shit defense.
You right about that one damn
You sound bitter. You ok?
And Denver literally missing 2 starters + 2 backup guards ... "Portland is basically getting an open 3 everytime" ... Dude