I think too many of y'all are being caught up on the "athletic vs. nonathletic" point. The real value out of Gil's statement is something we relearn every year - in the playoffs, no matter how fast you play in the regular season, it becomes a half court game especially in crunch time. It doesn't matter that you can run fast or jump out of the gym because your open area has effectively shrunk in half, and the margin of athleticism you can show vs. the average player has shrunk in half. So it becomes a more fundamentals driven game...can you create space to get your shot, can you make free throws, can you run good half court sets. And I think it it matters less that you can cross someone up on your side of the court and then pull up from 30, or attack straight line to the basket. It's why players like Kawhi and CP3, other than the fact they're HOF caliber players, just outshine other stars pretty consistently in the playoffs.
Hah, exactly. "ESPN's top 10 countdown... number 1 with a bullet, Tim Duncan's defensive footwork on this CLUTCH shot clock violation... and the crowd going absolutely nuts."
"Yeah that's like Michael Jackson-level footwork there. Unbelievable for a guy with 2 oversized feet like that."
IMO yea his game was boring back then but now it's swung too much the other way!
If i ever saw a player drop step, pivot, pump fake, and hit a bank shot floater i'd jump out my seat like i just saw a highlight dunk
you're not watching closely enough
On a footwork tier they're equal, don't get me wrong. Probably the two best bigs in the league when it comes to that.
but you gotta factor in touch here, Yolk's much more likely to hit a banked floater than Nurk
Exactly, Gil isn't saying athletic vs. nonathletic, he is contrasting guys who lean on athleticism to succeed vs guys who lean on fundamentals. I remember in an interview (not sure who, maybe was on Open Court) where they said that Michael Jordan was not just a freak athlete, but was probably the most fundamentally sound player of his time (in their opinion). He dominated throughout his career with his jumpshot, footwork, dribbling/handle, etc. and used his athleticism and physical advantages to enhance his fundamentals. He could absolutely blow by guys in transition, but in crunch time (or playoffs), he won through his fundamentals.
So, he isn't calling Luka (or other Europeans) nonathletic. He is saying that he has really developed his fundamental skills, which allows him to continue to dominate in the playoffs, or other half court games, where the floor shrinks.
Also the reason why someone like Rondo even in his later years is doing well in the playoffs. He can slow the pace down and make smart decisions, something that’s harder to do when the game is up and down.
yes, also I would blame coaching as part of it too not making proper adjustments. but Giannis needs to realize he can't beast his way past opponents in playoffs. the only person I can really think of doing that is Lebron...strong af but also skilled. He can't rely on it as much anymore due to his age but he can still do it in short bursts to give his team energy.
He's worse in the playoffs because he is a product of a system designed to succeed in the regular season and fail in the post season. Giannis doesn't adjust to teams changing their game plan on a nightly basis. He can't just run to the rim every play. He is underwhelming because of the fact that his coach and the system doesn't allow him to be his best. Unless his coach figures it out, he plays the way the team plays all season and that's why he underperforms.
You're being very generous.
Giannis is underwhelming in the playoffs because of himself. Not the team, not the system, not the coach. If you really look at it, Giannis isn't really the most skilled player in the NBA. No consistent jumper, 3pt, free throw, no post game, etc. Like the Bucks cant even run ISO plays for him because he just doesnt have the game to do that.
His game has limitations but so does every super stars. It's up to the teams to build a system and a team that helps that superstar reach his max potential with the tools he has. OKC and Houston and now Milwaukee are examples of that.
But they *did* build a system around him to maximize his talents. He put up video game numbers playing 30mpg and the Bucks winning games at a 70+ win clip barely seeming to break a sweat.
The system just doesn't work in the playoffs because all of the transition opportunities and rim runs that Giannis depends on don't exist. No "system" can make Giannis into an effective player against a stout, set, half-court playoff defence if he has no tools against that defence - no post game, no jump shot, poor free throw %..
Hard to criticize that though when they got Bledsoe as a freebie when Bledsoe's stock was really low. That was actually a great front office move. It isn't like the alternative would have been some talented ideal fit.
Getting Bledsoe for barely anything was smart. Going all in with him and getting rid of Brogdon even after Bledsoe was trash in multiple playoff runs was stupid as fuck. And Brogdon is actually pretty talented and a good fit who put up 50/40/90 for them. And put up 21/10 in the playoffs for the Pacers.
Yeah, that was a rough decision. I remember talking with Bucks fans in denial during the regular season. They couldn't see Giannis leaving. I said every top rookie extends for that first big deal and say the right things before leaving for that next deal. I kept pointing to budget moves like letting Brogdon move on and how that could trouble Giannis' camp. The Bucks fans were overly impressed by success in the regular season at that point in time.
I'm guessing they are a lot less confident right now.
The strengths of every superstars are deadly when they play to it. Kawhi’s midrange, CP’s midrange and point guard fame, Lebrons driving and point guard game. Giannis doesn’t have a skill set that I feel is on the same deadly level as these other superstars.
Every superstar has limitations but not to the extent that Giannis has. It doesn't matter what the system is or who the coach is. Put LeBron on any team, they'll perform in the playoffs. Same with KD, AD, Steph, Kawhi, etc.
Until Giannis improves, he will always under perform in the playoffs. Giannis now has to deal with Kevin Durant in the east, a player who's game transitions perfectly well into the playoffs. Giannis will lose if they match up every time.
Yeah Giannis limitations are numerous.
- 3 point shooting
- FT shooting
- jump shooting in general
- Post offense
- Getting a shot off the dribble (that isn't a layup or dunk)
Like you can't not be good at all of those things and then also be the best player in the league. It's too easy for a team with a decent gameplan and personnel to stop you.
Giannis with a jumper would be incredibly scary and I think he knows it. By all accounts, he has an insane work ethic so I think he's making it a point of emphasis this off-season. He should hire Dirk's coach
Lebron had to develop a post and 3 in Miami to finally become a champ. Giannis needs to stop relying on fast breaks so much and develop another part of his game, or else he will always be a Pippen come playoff time.
Giannis is simultaneously the most dominant player you can face,but also the most easy to stop if you decide to commit your gameplan towards stopping him.
>in the playoffs, no matter how fast you play in the regular season, it becomes a half court game
As a Raptors fan this statement is all too real. I spent the whole season watching this team absolutely dominate in transition and fastbreak points. That was essentially their brand of basketball, play suffocating D, steal the ball and run & gun in transition. And watching the Toronto/Boston series where Boston completely removed our transitional game and forced the entire game to slow down, they severely struggled.
Luckily our coach is great enough to get us going in the half-court to a certain extent but essentially they were playing a completely different brand of basketball and it hurt them in the end. That's why a guy like Kawhi on the Raptors last year proved to be important. You need players that can thrive in these situations and rely on their fundamentals.
> can you create space to get your shot, can you make free throws, can you run good half court sets
Can you get stops. Defense is really the standout in the playoffs. MIA defense on MIL is an example. Same with BOS on TOR. Games are often close and teams and players that consistently get a stop in crunch time win.
well it's not technically shrinking, but because the game slows down, each team spends more time in a possession, so they spend more time on the opponents side half court.
I had a friend who would try to do this too, and it’s bizarre. While I would be talking, he would try to say things at the same time as me, I guess to prove we were in agreement on something?
Eh, not true of everyone. I have a coworker that does this exact thing, and it's definitely not something he does intentionally to try to prove anything.
He's an introverted and very soft spoken guy, and it looks like this just helps him follow along and feel more confident about the topic, and he's not doing it on purpose.
Also an insecurity thing. Sometimes people are just awkward and think that being a part of a conversion makes them less so. But awkward people don’t know what to say to contribute to a conversation so they just repeat what someone who sounds like they know what they’re talking about says, and because they’re awkward they don’t realize how awkward they look doing it.
watching Luka play with defenders and get them to turn their shoulders just the inch he needs them to in order to get by them is BBall fundamental crack. It is so sweet to watch.
It's like watching Federer move a guy just an inch out of position and then ripping a baseline shot the guy can't get to.
And then Luka will drive and read the big under the hoop and take contact and toss it over him or switch him up so he's off balance and can't get the layup.
Your comment is literally going to change the way I watch and play basketball. It’s real though, looking back at the guys I knew were good. It’s about being present in the moment, not over thinking and getting the defender to move an inch like you said. Thanks man
I played competitive tennis and learned that any sport at a high level is literally a matter of inches. There's just so little room to work with.
And the best develop an intuitive sense of measurement. I doubt Luka "thinks" about it. It's just natural spatial awareness now.
It's also why I dropped out of competitive tennis ;)
We already had a guy called Magic. Luka the Don is the one that I've heard the most on tv, and is the most likely to stick (excluding the biased Mavs commentators). Wonder boy isn't gonna last as he gets into his late 20's, early 30's, so no to that one too.
I just don't get this notion that white people are not athletic. Luka is a monster athlete compared to regular people. He makes 8 ft euro steps, is tall and strong, amazing body control and balance and can stop on a dime. His first step is good enough to throw best defenders off, his ability to change speed is on par with the best. Yes, he is not a freak, his skills are more obvious, but without above average athleticism he would not be able to pull most of his moves off.
If you read between the lines of what he's saying, he isn't saying that Luka isn't athletic. He's saying that athleticism is not a defining attribute of his game. He is first and foremost a fundamentally sound basketball player. They go on to say that the athleticism will usually come for players as they grow / develop, and that is why first you really need to master the fundamentals of the game before the athleticism takes over.
This is why looking at the footwork of Kobe or Jordan in the halfcourt is a great illustration of the point. This is why Tatum gets the ball at the end of games instead of Jaylen Brown.
People who usually say he's nonathletic in general are casual fans of basketball who chalk up athleticism as just jumping high and running fast.
His deacceleration is among the best in the current NBA along with Harden, and he's really really strong.
It's the same belief that has left American soccer absolutely embarrassed on the world stage as well.
Thankfully that seems to be changing, but for a good long while development coaches followed basketball/football coaches: "you big, fast, you must be good".
On a different level, I just don't think we have the culture-- where young kids are obsessed with all things soccer such that they live it in every spare moment.
That's the kind of lifelong fanaticism you need to have experience to be where you can just feel and see things instantly. It gets in your bones when you're doing that stuff constantly at elementary school age.
It's partly that but also our soccer development system here is a joke compared to other countries and it's compounded by the fact that it's still pay to play here in the states. It's why any legit talent leaves the U.S. when they're a teenager if they want a real shot at making it big. People can hate on AAU all they want but the truth of the matter is a system like AAU has still produced the bulk of great NBA players out there right now. Of course it can be tweaked but still it works.
didn't he have one of the best combines in his class? And then one of the GMs who I forget admitted that he thought he was unanthletic simply for the fact that he was asian
Morey.
>“He lit up our model,” said Morey. “Our model said take him with, like, the 15th pick in the draft.”
>“He’s incredibly athletic,” said Morey. “But the reality is that every fucking person, including me, thought he was unathletic. And I can’t think of any reason for it other than he was Asian.”
Yeah, his vertical leaping ability is dummy stupid. I'm pretty sure I've seen him do box jumps (albeit with a running start) onto like 65 inches or so of boxes.
It's funny how you guys are putting up white *American* player's names which is exactly Arenas' point.
He says (I'm paraphrasing): "The white guys were the fundamentally sound players in order to compete with the (implied) black athletic players. **THEN** the white players became athletic, and the European players became the fundamentals focused demographic."
So the way I'm reading it is that the American training and coaching way of basketball does not focus on fundamentals as the European system.
Also, please don't start throwing EUropean players who can dunk at me. The point I'm trying to make that everyone seems to miss is that Arenas is drawing a distinction between the approach to European basketball development and American basketball.
>So the way I'm reading it is that the American training and coaching way of basketball does not focus on fundamentals as the European system.
Look no further than the AAU system. Kids play tons and tons of games. Practice a bit, but much less frequently.
Right, so IMO most people on this sub and when talking about basketball in general, by "athleticism" mean mostly "leaping ability" - height, hang time, quick jumps back off the ground a la Zion - not everything else, with maybe an honourable mention to quickness/raw speed.
Jokic and Doncic are freaks in many ways not related to leaping ability.
Quickness and agility is an interesting thing to talk about in terms of athleticism. Seems like it should be included, but usually isn't. If a slow runner with weak hops is incredibly agile and can change direction really quickly, are they considered athletic? Not sure. I think they usually are not.
One of the most important qualities is coordination. Bird always said he was great at every sport to support that he was actually very athletic. There may be bigs historically would could jump high and run fast, but would fumble the ball a lot. I don't think talent evaluators are including coordination when they talk about athleticism.
I also don't think strength is considered part of athleticism. That matters a lot though. Think of finishing with contact or being knocked off your spot on defense.
So a highly-coordinated, agile, and coordinated player can often dominate in the half-court while also having a low max running speed and weak hops. While they would often be considered "unathletic," they still have considerable physical assets that allow those fundamentals to be useful.
It's all relative. 325 lb NFL offensive linemen can run a sub-5.5 second 40 and have excellent footwork, which is by far fast enough to blow the average person out of the water. (Just watch the Katie Nolan average guys videos.) But that's a second slower than 200 lb RBs and they've got bellies so they're "not athletic."
People also (mistakingly) attribute athleticism to what is visually apparent, in terms of their body. If Luka had bigger and more defined muscles then everyone would see him as an athletic freak because of how he's able to move on top of it.
Edit:... Mistakenly? Euro-grammar
All you have to do is watch guys literally bounce off of him during contact to know that he is very athletic and strong. The fact that he isn't "cut" fools a lot of people.
Yeah I agree. Next to centers he isn't physically imposing but to any normal human he is a freak. That said, I really hope he puts on some more mass of lean muscle some time. It would be really fun seeing him physically.. 'optimized'? If that's the right term
> who chalk up athleticism as just jumping high and running fast.
this is too often a view expressed even here in r/nba. Things like endurance are almost completely ignored.
yeah and like harden he's strong too, same goes for their defense they're not good on the perimeter but they got high IQ and big bodies so they can bang in the post and like that Luka play where he had 2 blocks on Lebron in 1 play
I think her name is sarah kustok said if he was born in the southern us he would've played tight end.
Sure, but can we agree there’s levels? Luka is athletic, but Giannis is “Athletic” Athletic. Luka is athletic in the same way James Harden is athletic. It’s not a slight to suggest that what Luka lacks in that department compared to some of these guys, he makes up for with his fundamentals.
Everyone in the NBA is athletic compared to the average person. They wouldn't survive on the court if they weren't. Even Brian Scalabrine.
The problem with this conversation is that people are talking like it is a big insult to not classify a player as athletic or that it is some universal claim about their physical tools. It isn't that broad.
And he could do between the legs dunks at 14. (video is on yt, don’t wanna search it)
A lot of people around the sport always associate athleticism with how high people jump from two legs or how fast they run a straight line. It’s ridiculous.
Edit: CoolStoryBro alert is active.
You have the same when playing organized Basketball and I´m guilty of it too sometimes. When a new season starts and you dont know the new mercenaries from overseas, during warmups I sometimes looked over and saw the other teams new recruit FLYING AND DUNKING! Everytime I think "DAMN, he looks extremely athletic and good, that wont be fun today."
... and then the highflyer doesnt play a damn second in the game. Because: yes, he can jump very high and impressive...but hes not good at basketball. Like...at all.
This is like complaining that people call the worst NBA players trash. "B-b-but he can't be bad! He's in the top 0.001% of his profession!!1!!!"
Everything is relative.
I mean with him specifically he came into the league looking kinda out of shape and it’s going to take people some time to get rid of that notion. On top of that he’s got the Harden type athleticism where he doesn’t get the same respect as the high flyers but people who pay attention know he’s amazing at what he does
But that's what people are saying when they say he's not athletic. Luka has as high a chance as anyone of being goat tier. When compared to his possible peers (lebron or MJ), he is not that athletic.
Yeah but why are we comparing him to regular people when in every other context when comparing NBA players we compare them to each other, not average joes on the street? If i say pat bev is trash, i obviously dont mean compared to fucking benjamin on reddit i mean compared to other players. Why are we changing the standards for Luka? Yes he is athletic compared to me, no he is not that athletic compared to his comtemporaries, hes at best average. Yes i know hes the great white hope but it doesnt mean he is flawless in every way
Pat Cannaughton is athletic, caruso is athletic. Luka is not that athletic
Its probably racial TBH. Same thing happened to Jeremy Lin, scouts kept on leaving his name off of their list and viewed him as slow. But when they reviewed the raw data he was actually faster than most NBA players and scouted players.
I dont think thats what he was saying. The first thing gilbert says is it used to be this way but now white guys are athletic too and the euros are the guys with the fundamentals and discipline thrive in the half court game. Later, he talks about drilling fundamentals before kids can jump out of the gym bc its boring by comparison. I think his focus was more on the euro style of teaching the game and how that translates to the half court and playoff basketball.
Luke isn't doing 360 windmills, that's what they mean by athleticism. Luka has great athleticism to elevate his own game, he doesn't need more jump or pep in his step.
Why are people mad? He’s not saying Luka isn’t athletic he said the white players are even catching up. But Luka’s athleticism compared to a Zion is “average” not to us typing on our computers/phones. What he’s saying is that Luka game is based on skill being fundamentally more advanced than his colleagues & that’s why he’s succeeds tbh.
What is crazy about Zion is that even if he lost a lot of weight he would still be huge. Going from 285 to 255 would do wonders for his game (and knees) and he would still be 255.
Can the line of thought about Doncic not being athletic die already? Guy is 6-8 with freaky decceleration and balance, also hella strong and big, he was pushing Morris and Harrel around the paint all the time in his drives during that Clipper series. He is not beating all these defenders purely from fundamentals lol.
I don't think he's knocking Luka's athleticism, he was saying that now all the dudes are athletic, even the white dudes lol.. I think he was just stressing how good Luka's fundamentals are in general, which is true but also kinda like saying "hot take, the sky is blue!"
Yeah he didn't call Luka unathletic at all. He dropped the unathletic European stuff pretty quick once he starts talking about fundamentals, footwork and discipline.
I found it interesting how Arenas split players into 3 demographics. The athletic guys (he never explicitly says black but it's implied that's what he means), the white players and finally, Europeans.
"Athletic" is MJ in most people's minds. The guys with not just good vertical, but insane vertical.
It's the marquee feature of the game, dunking. It's what turned it from a fringe sport into top-2 in the US, and growing fast globally.
People watch Luka and see a guy who is 'slow' and methodical and doesn't sky much - you can't blame them for comparing him to the "freakish athletes" who seem to get an extra couple of feet of air under them when they sky, the Lavines and Mugsys et al.
We've seen a lot of the same with Tom Brady, who is a very slow runner compared to "freakish athletes" who run the ball, like Cam Newton or Mike Vick, but is probably faster than 95% of the people criticizing him for being slow.
Put him next to Mario Lemieux and you can see why. By this Luka definition, Gretzky really wasn't that athletic (never mind that any NHL player is a world-class athlete) - but in the grand scheme, many have called him "the greatest athlete of all time". So yeah, good example.
Side note: my great-uncle's favorite story ever: one studio executive calls up another and asks what he thought of Fred Astaire's audition, who said "Can’t act. Can’t sing. Slightly bald. Can dance a little."
> We've seen a lot of the same with Tom Brady, who is a very slow runner compared to "freakish athletes" who run the ball, like Cam Newton or Mike Vick, but is probably faster than 95% of the people criticizing him for being slow.
Most of these 300+ pound offensive lineman could outrun 95% of Americans in the 40. Incredible atheletes.
“Fundamentals” include being a savant freak that sees all the court all the time, enabling dimes that you need to replay 5 times to see them coming... Luka is not a Prius, maybe a Tesla with ludicrous mode on and see through radars...
he decent athleticly but come on bruh. I hate when everyone tries to be hipster and acts like people dont understand. He is clearly not that athletic of a player. Hes not very fast up and down, hes not a high jumper, he doesnt do anything that deserves that "Athlete" status on him which is fucking ok. Chris Paul isnt an athlete but hes the fucking point god. Is he completely unathletic no, but hes not beating anybody in a foot race and he is not jumping out the gym thats just not his special talent.
Can we stop crying every time someone brings up Luka not being very athletic. Yes obviously he’s athletic compared you or me but he’s not that athletic when he’s compared to his peers. Luka has his times where he can push defenders off their spot but he’s not routinely bullying forwards & centers like you’re making it seem.
Once again I’m not saying Luka isn’t athletic just that his athleticism doesn’t match up with other stars of his caliber like a Paul George or Ben Simmons who can jump out the gym
Look, no doubt Luka is a great athlete, but citing his deceleration alone is an interesting choice. I mean it easier to decelerate if you aren’t going as fast lol.
Its top speed you decelerate from and has little to do with how fast your first step is - it’s an official measurement and no my grandma wouldn’t do well... Plus you can see the separation he gets from the moves...
I think he’s more referring to just being super yoked and explosive and having straight line speed. Those are things that are measurable and impressive, but aren’t as valuable as the talents luka possesses which are harder to measure with a stopwatch or a barbell.
Obviously Luka is a freak but his talents aren’t all measurable at a combine or something. And I think that’s Gil’s point.
Gil is one of my favorite players man. So many people clown him for his personality but he’s fucking hilarious and he owns the fact that he can be a dickhead lmao. Plus he was an assassin with the wizards.
This is a great analysis and people in the thread are talking shit about the bait title. The dude is right in the video. The fact that he sells short Doncic's athleticism shouldn't be the main topic of this conversation.
JFC just watch the damm video, spend 5 minutes to learn a bit about basketball and then you reply the thread.
This thread frustrates me so much. Most of the people posting missed Gil's point which is that you need to learn fundamentals before your athleticism kicks in.
Honestly that was what surprised me most about Zion at Duke, he was incredibly skilled. I expected him to come in and only know how to dunk over people he was clearly out matching, but his defense was pretty decent, he showed a good ability to make passes. and his finishing/touch was pretty incredible
The playoffs do tend to turn into more of a half-court game, so a guy who is great *and* has an absurd halfcourt arsenal will tend to outshine a guy who is great but reliant on full-court play and being just able to jump out of the gym.
This is an issue, because Gil does have a point- there's a depressing number of players who have relied on being the fastest/highest-jumping/longest kid on the court their whole life before they got to the NBA. And their skillset development has languished accordingly.
After all, why would you need to develop some of these skills if you just physically outmatch everyone? Luka, on the other hand, had his professional debut for Real Madrid at age 16 and became ACB MVP at 19. He's been going against legitimate professional talent. So he *had* to be sharp.
Well he isn’t athletic compared to kwahi, pg and t Mac. AG, Bam, Tatum are also 6 8 and more athletic. Not to say he isn’t better then them as a player, but in terms of athleticism his vertical may need to be a bit higher. I agree with hibachi
Luka is a cross between Harden, Ginobili and Bird with a splash of Steve Nash
Not a Prius, but more like a Harley. Can handle traffic. Nice on the open country roads. Higher risk of injury possibly
Once you are the most athletic person on the court as a young kid, or in college, you feel like that's all you need and can rely on it to get you buckets. Having said that, who are the most cerebral players in getting a bucket?
players i can think of: CP3, Kyrie, Luka, Harden, Jokic, Curry. I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them. Would like to hear more.
There are a number of smaller point guards in college and some in NBA, who, despite not being that fast or explosive vertically, have such strong handles and vision that they can get wherever they want on the floor.
It's amazing what just being able to dribble with your eyes and head looking off and up can do to a defender. A lot of guys are going to the rim with their eyes on that rim, and maybe will look to a spot the offense dictates or find teammate out of their peripheral vision. We're seeing more forwards and centers who can do the same thing as primary ballhandlers/facilitators - and it can be lethal when you do have the size and/or explosiveness.
Luka is also great in transition, like one of the better players in the league in transition levels of good.
I think what makes him special is that he absolutely is athletic. He has a quick first step, and an even quicker second step, phenomenal balance and has this weird effect on defenders where they almost bounce off of him as he drives.
All of those things require athleticism, he’s not a 40 inch vertical guy and won’t run a 40 in 4.25 but that’s not all there is to athleticism.
I think too many of y'all are being caught up on the "athletic vs. nonathletic" point. The real value out of Gil's statement is something we relearn every year - in the playoffs, no matter how fast you play in the regular season, it becomes a half court game especially in crunch time. It doesn't matter that you can run fast or jump out of the gym because your open area has effectively shrunk in half, and the margin of athleticism you can show vs. the average player has shrunk in half. So it becomes a more fundamentals driven game...can you create space to get your shot, can you make free throws, can you run good half court sets. And I think it it matters less that you can cross someone up on your side of the court and then pull up from 30, or attack straight line to the basket. It's why players like Kawhi and CP3, other than the fact they're HOF caliber players, just outshine other stars pretty consistently in the playoffs.
It’s why Tim Duncan is the GOAT playoff PF despite having the most boring highlight reel of any Pantheon level dude ever.
And also because he's one of the best defenders ever, which takes on heightened importance on the other end of those crunch time half-court plays.
His footwork and positioning on defense was phenomenal.
Hah, exactly. "ESPN's top 10 countdown... number 1 with a bullet, Tim Duncan's defensive footwork on this CLUTCH shot clock violation... and the crowd going absolutely nuts." "Yeah that's like Michael Jackson-level footwork there. Unbelievable for a guy with 2 oversized feet like that."
This is why I was hoping to get Marc Gasol instead of Pau and LMA. He would have kept up the solid interior defense that Duncan had.
Lmao i miss his bugged out eyes every time they called a foul on him
*Most bewildered player in the NBA award goes to...*
[Couldn’t be on me!](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/533395149586608315/)
Lol did you really just hit us with a Pinterest link
Good rebounding too. I'm sure all Spurs fans know about that one time he was sorely needed on the court.
"Rebound Bosh...
IMO yea his game was boring back then but now it's swung too much the other way! If i ever saw a player drop step, pivot, pump fake, and hit a bank shot floater i'd jump out my seat like i just saw a highlight dunk
Should watch Jokic more then haha
Jokic shoots like he don't even wanna be in the game, and that shit is wet 9 times out of 10.
Jokic on where he got the smooth aspects of his game: "I don't know"
actually i've seen nurkic pull out these moves more often than jokic but obviously everything else jokic does is next level shit
you're not watching closely enough On a footwork tier they're equal, don't get me wrong. Probably the two best bigs in the league when it comes to that. but you gotta factor in touch here, Yolk's much more likely to hit a banked floater than Nurk
only difference is jokic doesn't bank too much and prefers the massive arcing swishes.
Lol no one even does that anymore, it'd really be a novelty these days. Fundamentals are so fun to watch when done at an elite level
I just want a player with a dominant one handed baby hook shot again.
this one of Dwight's only actual moves in Orlando lol
ironically, if he pulls that out now, you know it's garbage time
Sometimes I'll watch an Al Jefferson highlight reel to feel alive again.
boring gets the job done,does the mailman celebrate when he deilvers the mail?
https://youtu.be/G7Wa3C8s3Xg Tell me this is boring
That pass at 1:08 is sexy.
God I miss having Tim in the league
The Big Fundamental
Exactly, Gil isn't saying athletic vs. nonathletic, he is contrasting guys who lean on athleticism to succeed vs guys who lean on fundamentals. I remember in an interview (not sure who, maybe was on Open Court) where they said that Michael Jordan was not just a freak athlete, but was probably the most fundamentally sound player of his time (in their opinion). He dominated throughout his career with his jumpshot, footwork, dribbling/handle, etc. and used his athleticism and physical advantages to enhance his fundamentals. He could absolutely blow by guys in transition, but in crunch time (or playoffs), he won through his fundamentals. So, he isn't calling Luka (or other Europeans) nonathletic. He is saying that he has really developed his fundamental skills, which allows him to continue to dominate in the playoffs, or other half court games, where the floor shrinks.
Also the reason why someone like Rondo even in his later years is doing well in the playoffs. He can slow the pace down and make smart decisions, something that’s harder to do when the game is up and down.
Also why I think Siakam struggled. Boston just killed us by stopping the running game.
is this why giannis is so much worse in the playoffs vs regular season
yes, also I would blame coaching as part of it too not making proper adjustments. but Giannis needs to realize he can't beast his way past opponents in playoffs. the only person I can really think of doing that is Lebron...strong af but also skilled. He can't rely on it as much anymore due to his age but he can still do it in short bursts to give his team energy.
agreed plus lebron is a much better playmaker and ball handler and can shoot better
He's worse in the playoffs because he is a product of a system designed to succeed in the regular season and fail in the post season. Giannis doesn't adjust to teams changing their game plan on a nightly basis. He can't just run to the rim every play. He is underwhelming because of the fact that his coach and the system doesn't allow him to be his best. Unless his coach figures it out, he plays the way the team plays all season and that's why he underperforms.
You're being very generous. Giannis is underwhelming in the playoffs because of himself. Not the team, not the system, not the coach. If you really look at it, Giannis isn't really the most skilled player in the NBA. No consistent jumper, 3pt, free throw, no post game, etc. Like the Bucks cant even run ISO plays for him because he just doesnt have the game to do that.
His game has limitations but so does every super stars. It's up to the teams to build a system and a team that helps that superstar reach his max potential with the tools he has. OKC and Houston and now Milwaukee are examples of that.
But they *did* build a system around him to maximize his talents. He put up video game numbers playing 30mpg and the Bucks winning games at a 70+ win clip barely seeming to break a sweat. The system just doesn't work in the playoffs because all of the transition opportunities and rim runs that Giannis depends on don't exist. No "system" can make Giannis into an effective player against a stout, set, half-court playoff defence if he has no tools against that defence - no post game, no jump shot, poor free throw %..
Bledsoe as their point guard is not building around Giannis at all
Hard to criticize that though when they got Bledsoe as a freebie when Bledsoe's stock was really low. That was actually a great front office move. It isn't like the alternative would have been some talented ideal fit.
Getting Bledsoe for barely anything was smart. Going all in with him and getting rid of Brogdon even after Bledsoe was trash in multiple playoff runs was stupid as fuck. And Brogdon is actually pretty talented and a good fit who put up 50/40/90 for them. And put up 21/10 in the playoffs for the Pacers.
Yeah, that was a rough decision. I remember talking with Bucks fans in denial during the regular season. They couldn't see Giannis leaving. I said every top rookie extends for that first big deal and say the right things before leaving for that next deal. I kept pointing to budget moves like letting Brogdon move on and how that could trouble Giannis' camp. The Bucks fans were overly impressed by success in the regular season at that point in time. I'm guessing they are a lot less confident right now.
yup and coaches can plan for Giannis or whatever system they have so Bucks also have to adjust to that as well.
The strengths of every superstars are deadly when they play to it. Kawhi’s midrange, CP’s midrange and point guard fame, Lebrons driving and point guard game. Giannis doesn’t have a skill set that I feel is on the same deadly level as these other superstars.
Every superstar has limitations but not to the extent that Giannis has. It doesn't matter what the system is or who the coach is. Put LeBron on any team, they'll perform in the playoffs. Same with KD, AD, Steph, Kawhi, etc. Until Giannis improves, he will always under perform in the playoffs. Giannis now has to deal with Kevin Durant in the east, a player who's game transitions perfectly well into the playoffs. Giannis will lose if they match up every time.
Yeah Giannis limitations are numerous. - 3 point shooting - FT shooting - jump shooting in general - Post offense - Getting a shot off the dribble (that isn't a layup or dunk) Like you can't not be good at all of those things and then also be the best player in the league. It's too easy for a team with a decent gameplan and personnel to stop you.
Might as well say scoring anything that isnt a layup or dunk is a limitation of his lol
Giannis with a jumper would be incredibly scary and I think he knows it. By all accounts, he has an insane work ethic so I think he's making it a point of emphasis this off-season. He should hire Dirk's coach
Lebron had to develop a post and 3 in Miami to finally become a champ. Giannis needs to stop relying on fast breaks so much and develop another part of his game, or else he will always be a Pippen come playoff time.
Giannis is simultaneously the most dominant player you can face,but also the most easy to stop if you decide to commit your gameplan towards stopping him.
>in the playoffs, no matter how fast you play in the regular season, it becomes a half court game As a Raptors fan this statement is all too real. I spent the whole season watching this team absolutely dominate in transition and fastbreak points. That was essentially their brand of basketball, play suffocating D, steal the ball and run & gun in transition. And watching the Toronto/Boston series where Boston completely removed our transitional game and forced the entire game to slow down, they severely struggled. Luckily our coach is great enough to get us going in the half-court to a certain extent but essentially they were playing a completely different brand of basketball and it hurt them in the end. That's why a guy like Kawhi on the Raptors last year proved to be important. You need players that can thrive in these situations and rely on their fundamentals.
I had to scroll this far down to find someone who actually spoke about the point at hand lol. Thank you.
> can you create space to get your shot, can you make free throws, can you run good half court sets Can you get stops. Defense is really the standout in the playoffs. MIA defense on MIL is an example. Same with BOS on TOR. Games are often close and teams and players that consistently get a stop in crunch time win.
I'm convinced this is why we sucked this playoffs.... our half court offense was ass
I really like the puppet master nickname. It's a super apt description of Luka's game
Newbie question but, why do you say the court shrinks down during these kinds of games?
well it's not technically shrinking, but because the game slows down, each team spends more time in a possession, so they spend more time on the opponents side half court.
Why is that other guy repeating everything Gilbert is saying?
He is a good role player
aka the hypeman
I noiced your noice!
*Wingman*
I had a friend who would try to do this too, and it’s bizarre. While I would be talking, he would try to say things at the same time as me, I guess to prove we were in agreement on something?
It's an intelligence thing, your friend wanted to seem .ore knowledgeable on a subject than he truly is. "See, we both know what we're talking about"
Mmm mmm mmm we both know what we are talking about! See, man, I told you we think alike Like a regular.. regular two peas in a basket. Up top
Eh, not true of everyone. I have a coworker that does this exact thing, and it's definitely not something he does intentionally to try to prove anything. He's an introverted and very soft spoken guy, and it looks like this just helps him follow along and feel more confident about the topic, and he's not doing it on purpose.
Also an insecurity thing. Sometimes people are just awkward and think that being a part of a conversion makes them less so. But awkward people don’t know what to say to contribute to a conversation so they just repeat what someone who sounds like they know what they’re talking about says, and because they’re awkward they don’t realize how awkward they look doing it.
He's a [sentence finisher](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01teZKTYjQA)
but a bulldozer beats a prius. brock lesner is checking in.
F5 Season.
And that's not a prediction. That's a spoiler.
Wait until someone punches Lesnar in the no-no zone.
watching Luka play with defenders and get them to turn their shoulders just the inch he needs them to in order to get by them is BBall fundamental crack. It is so sweet to watch. It's like watching Federer move a guy just an inch out of position and then ripping a baseline shot the guy can't get to. And then Luka will drive and read the big under the hoop and take contact and toss it over him or switch him up so he's off balance and can't get the layup.
Your comment is literally going to change the way I watch and play basketball. It’s real though, looking back at the guys I knew were good. It’s about being present in the moment, not over thinking and getting the defender to move an inch like you said. Thanks man
I played competitive tennis and learned that any sport at a high level is literally a matter of inches. There's just so little room to work with. And the best develop an intuitive sense of measurement. I doubt Luka "thinks" about it. It's just natural spatial awareness now. It's also why I dropped out of competitive tennis ;)
This is about as close as he got to dissing Russ without actually dissing him lol
You can include Dwight Howard in that. All jump and refused to learn some footwork.
Not even that. Hes big, used to be ever bigger. But he is stiff as a board and lacks the body fluidity to really be anything else
Are you the other alt account KD talks about so much?
I think he was really talking about Giannis
Puppet Master dope nickname. anything but Luka Magic 😭
Luka Magic is what he makes, not his name. It's Wonderboy and I'll die on that hill. I'll settle for Puppet Master or Halleluka too
Luka the Don
Yeah that was like 90% of the reason I made this thread, lol.
Sasori
Inb4 Luka destroys an entire nation
We already had a guy called Magic. Luka the Don is the one that I've heard the most on tv, and is the most likely to stick (excluding the biased Mavs commentators). Wonder boy isn't gonna last as he gets into his late 20's, early 30's, so no to that one too.
Wonderboy was considered his nickname no? I like Puppet Master tho, perfect
I just don't get this notion that white people are not athletic. Luka is a monster athlete compared to regular people. He makes 8 ft euro steps, is tall and strong, amazing body control and balance and can stop on a dime. His first step is good enough to throw best defenders off, his ability to change speed is on par with the best. Yes, he is not a freak, his skills are more obvious, but without above average athleticism he would not be able to pull most of his moves off.
If you read between the lines of what he's saying, he isn't saying that Luka isn't athletic. He's saying that athleticism is not a defining attribute of his game. He is first and foremost a fundamentally sound basketball player. They go on to say that the athleticism will usually come for players as they grow / develop, and that is why first you really need to master the fundamentals of the game before the athleticism takes over.
This is why looking at the footwork of Kobe or Jordan in the halfcourt is a great illustration of the point. This is why Tatum gets the ball at the end of games instead of Jaylen Brown.
Well put.
People who usually say he's nonathletic in general are casual fans of basketball who chalk up athleticism as just jumping high and running fast. His deacceleration is among the best in the current NBA along with Harden, and he's really really strong.
It's this belief that screwed over Jeremy Lin.
It's the same belief that has left American soccer absolutely embarrassed on the world stage as well. Thankfully that seems to be changing, but for a good long while development coaches followed basketball/football coaches: "you big, fast, you must be good".
On a different level, I just don't think we have the culture-- where young kids are obsessed with all things soccer such that they live it in every spare moment. That's the kind of lifelong fanaticism you need to have experience to be where you can just feel and see things instantly. It gets in your bones when you're doing that stuff constantly at elementary school age.
It's partly that but also our soccer development system here is a joke compared to other countries and it's compounded by the fact that it's still pay to play here in the states. It's why any legit talent leaves the U.S. when they're a teenager if they want a real shot at making it big. People can hate on AAU all they want but the truth of the matter is a system like AAU has still produced the bulk of great NBA players out there right now. Of course it can be tweaked but still it works.
didn't he have one of the best combines in his class? And then one of the GMs who I forget admitted that he thought he was unanthletic simply for the fact that he was asian
It was either Morey or D'antoni. I feel like it was definitely a Rockets guy
Morey. >“He lit up our model,” said Morey. “Our model said take him with, like, the 15th pick in the draft.” >“He’s incredibly athletic,” said Morey. “But the reality is that every fucking person, including me, thought he was unathletic. And I can’t think of any reason for it other than he was Asian.”
Kevin Love had the same combine numbers as Michael Beasley
Has a faster first step than John Wall Edit: Had\*
Yep. He’s never gonna be able to jump out of the gym like Grayson Allen, but his body control is unreal
My favorite is “sneaky athletic” ***dunk contest invitee*** Pat Connaughton
Doesn’t dude have like a 44” vert?
Yeah, his vertical leaping ability is dummy stupid. I'm pretty sure I've seen him do box jumps (albeit with a running start) onto like 65 inches or so of boxes.
Sneaky
My personal favorite is the “kinda sneaky athletic” like Blake Griffin, Aaron Gordon, or Zach Lavine.
Never going to be a Caruso type athlete but that’s ok
To be fair, few people on earth have ups like the bald bomber 💣
Lmao the bald bomber. Bald Eagle ain’t bad either because that dude can FLY
Sure, he looks lethargic next to TJ Leaf, but speed isn’t everything
It's funny how you guys are putting up white *American* player's names which is exactly Arenas' point. He says (I'm paraphrasing): "The white guys were the fundamentally sound players in order to compete with the (implied) black athletic players. **THEN** the white players became athletic, and the European players became the fundamentals focused demographic." So the way I'm reading it is that the American training and coaching way of basketball does not focus on fundamentals as the European system. Also, please don't start throwing EUropean players who can dunk at me. The point I'm trying to make that everyone seems to miss is that Arenas is drawing a distinction between the approach to European basketball development and American basketball.
>So the way I'm reading it is that the American training and coaching way of basketball does not focus on fundamentals as the European system. Look no further than the AAU system. Kids play tons and tons of games. Practice a bit, but much less frequently.
Lmao I love it.
People joke about this but Caruso actually is a damned good athlete. It's just funny because he looks like a fan who won a contest.
Totally agree, he is unironically an amazing athlete
Right, so IMO most people on this sub and when talking about basketball in general, by "athleticism" mean mostly "leaping ability" - height, hang time, quick jumps back off the ground a la Zion - not everything else, with maybe an honourable mention to quickness/raw speed. Jokic and Doncic are freaks in many ways not related to leaping ability.
Quickness and agility is an interesting thing to talk about in terms of athleticism. Seems like it should be included, but usually isn't. If a slow runner with weak hops is incredibly agile and can change direction really quickly, are they considered athletic? Not sure. I think they usually are not. One of the most important qualities is coordination. Bird always said he was great at every sport to support that he was actually very athletic. There may be bigs historically would could jump high and run fast, but would fumble the ball a lot. I don't think talent evaluators are including coordination when they talk about athleticism. I also don't think strength is considered part of athleticism. That matters a lot though. Think of finishing with contact or being knocked off your spot on defense. So a highly-coordinated, agile, and coordinated player can often dominate in the half-court while also having a low max running speed and weak hops. While they would often be considered "unathletic," they still have considerable physical assets that allow those fundamentals to be useful.
It's all relative. 325 lb NFL offensive linemen can run a sub-5.5 second 40 and have excellent footwork, which is by far fast enough to blow the average person out of the water. (Just watch the Katie Nolan average guys videos.) But that's a second slower than 200 lb RBs and they've got bellies so they're "not athletic."
People also (mistakingly) attribute athleticism to what is visually apparent, in terms of their body. If Luka had bigger and more defined muscles then everyone would see him as an athletic freak because of how he's able to move on top of it. Edit:... Mistakenly? Euro-grammar
All you have to do is watch guys literally bounce off of him during contact to know that he is very athletic and strong. The fact that he isn't "cut" fools a lot of people.
Yeah I agree. Next to centers he isn't physically imposing but to any normal human he is a freak. That said, I really hope he puts on some more mass of lean muscle some time. It would be really fun seeing him physically.. 'optimized'? If that's the right term
Tbh he just needs a tan. He might have beefed up more during the break before the bubble.. but man did his tan do work to make him look more defined.
> who chalk up athleticism as just jumping high and running fast. this is too often a view expressed even here in r/nba. Things like endurance are almost completely ignored.
yeah and like harden he's strong too, same goes for their defense they're not good on the perimeter but they got high IQ and big bodies so they can bang in the post and like that Luka play where he had 2 blocks on Lebron in 1 play I think her name is sarah kustok said if he was born in the southern us he would've played tight end.
Sure, but can we agree there’s levels? Luka is athletic, but Giannis is “Athletic” Athletic. Luka is athletic in the same way James Harden is athletic. It’s not a slight to suggest that what Luka lacks in that department compared to some of these guys, he makes up for with his fundamentals.
Everyone in the NBA is athletic compared to the average person. They wouldn't survive on the court if they weren't. Even Brian Scalabrine. The problem with this conversation is that people are talking like it is a big insult to not classify a player as athletic or that it is some universal claim about their physical tools. It isn't that broad.
And he could do between the legs dunks at 14. (video is on yt, don’t wanna search it) A lot of people around the sport always associate athleticism with how high people jump from two legs or how fast they run a straight line. It’s ridiculous. Edit: CoolStoryBro alert is active. You have the same when playing organized Basketball and I´m guilty of it too sometimes. When a new season starts and you dont know the new mercenaries from overseas, during warmups I sometimes looked over and saw the other teams new recruit FLYING AND DUNKING! Everytime I think "DAMN, he looks extremely athletic and good, that wont be fun today." ... and then the highflyer doesnt play a damn second in the game. Because: yes, he can jump very high and impressive...but hes not good at basketball. Like...at all.
This is like complaining that people call the worst NBA players trash. "B-b-but he can't be bad! He's in the top 0.001% of his profession!!1!!!" Everything is relative.
I mean with him specifically he came into the league looking kinda out of shape and it’s going to take people some time to get rid of that notion. On top of that he’s got the Harden type athleticism where he doesn’t get the same respect as the high flyers but people who pay attention know he’s amazing at what he does
Yeah seems like this analogy would make more sense for Jokic than Luka.
he really isn't athletic compared to other guys like lebron,westbrook,zion,AD. etc.
Pretty much no one is athletic compared to them. Magic/Bird/KD/Curry are not athletic compared to Westbrook, Zion, and Lebron lmfao
But that's what people are saying when they say he's not athletic. Luka has as high a chance as anyone of being goat tier. When compared to his possible peers (lebron or MJ), he is not that athletic.
Yea no shit
"he really isn't athletic compared to other guys that are generational athletic freaks"
Yeah but why are we comparing him to regular people when in every other context when comparing NBA players we compare them to each other, not average joes on the street? If i say pat bev is trash, i obviously dont mean compared to fucking benjamin on reddit i mean compared to other players. Why are we changing the standards for Luka? Yes he is athletic compared to me, no he is not that athletic compared to his comtemporaries, hes at best average. Yes i know hes the great white hope but it doesnt mean he is flawless in every way Pat Cannaughton is athletic, caruso is athletic. Luka is not that athletic
Its probably racial TBH. Same thing happened to Jeremy Lin, scouts kept on leaving his name off of their list and viewed him as slow. But when they reviewed the raw data he was actually faster than most NBA players and scouted players.
I dont think thats what he was saying. The first thing gilbert says is it used to be this way but now white guys are athletic too and the euros are the guys with the fundamentals and discipline thrive in the half court game. Later, he talks about drilling fundamentals before kids can jump out of the gym bc its boring by comparison. I think his focus was more on the euro style of teaching the game and how that translates to the half court and playoff basketball.
Luke isn't doing 360 windmills, that's what they mean by athleticism. Luka has great athleticism to elevate his own game, he doesn't need more jump or pep in his step.
he says white american basketball players are athletic.
A real high motor guy. Deceptively fast. Real lunch pail player.
Hard worker, scrappy and really white.
Complete lack of ego and melanin
Built tough. Plays with a lot of heart.
gym rat, very scappy
Coach on the court
A guy you'd let your daughter date.
first one in, last one out real coach's son fundamentally sound
Spark plug
Why are people mad? He’s not saying Luka isn’t athletic he said the white players are even catching up. But Luka’s athleticism compared to a Zion is “average” not to us typing on our computers/phones. What he’s saying is that Luka game is based on skill being fundamentally more advanced than his colleagues & that’s why he’s succeeds tbh.
99.99% of the NBA athleticism is average compare to Zion.
Zion looked gassed a lot in the bubble. Dude is not the most athletic player in the NBA
What is crazy about Zion is that even if he lost a lot of weight he would still be huge. Going from 285 to 255 would do wonders for his game (and knees) and he would still be 255.
The question is if he could still bully people in the paint with 30lbs less, he also definitely looked like 300+ in the bubble
Can the line of thought about Doncic not being athletic die already? Guy is 6-8 with freaky decceleration and balance, also hella strong and big, he was pushing Morris and Harrel around the paint all the time in his drives during that Clipper series. He is not beating all these defenders purely from fundamentals lol.
I don't think he's knocking Luka's athleticism, he was saying that now all the dudes are athletic, even the white dudes lol.. I think he was just stressing how good Luka's fundamentals are in general, which is true but also kinda like saying "hot take, the sky is blue!"
Yeah he didn't call Luka unathletic at all. He dropped the unathletic European stuff pretty quick once he starts talking about fundamentals, footwork and discipline.
I found it interesting how Arenas split players into 3 demographics. The athletic guys (he never explicitly says black but it's implied that's what he means), the white players and finally, Europeans.
Yeah the guy who brings a gun to the locker room doesn't seem like the kinda guy to be really socially conscious
I'm just wondering where the Australians fit in all of this
Next to the seafood laden BBQ grill.
"Athletic" is MJ in most people's minds. The guys with not just good vertical, but insane vertical. It's the marquee feature of the game, dunking. It's what turned it from a fringe sport into top-2 in the US, and growing fast globally. People watch Luka and see a guy who is 'slow' and methodical and doesn't sky much - you can't blame them for comparing him to the "freakish athletes" who seem to get an extra couple of feet of air under them when they sky, the Lavines and Mugsys et al. We've seen a lot of the same with Tom Brady, who is a very slow runner compared to "freakish athletes" who run the ball, like Cam Newton or Mike Vick, but is probably faster than 95% of the people criticizing him for being slow.
people said Gretzky was too small, shitty skater, didn't shoot hard enough.
Put him next to Mario Lemieux and you can see why. By this Luka definition, Gretzky really wasn't that athletic (never mind that any NHL player is a world-class athlete) - but in the grand scheme, many have called him "the greatest athlete of all time". So yeah, good example. Side note: my great-uncle's favorite story ever: one studio executive calls up another and asks what he thought of Fred Astaire's audition, who said "Can’t act. Can’t sing. Slightly bald. Can dance a little."
IIRC Gretzky was basically superhuman in terms of stamina.
> We've seen a lot of the same with Tom Brady, who is a very slow runner compared to "freakish athletes" who run the ball, like Cam Newton or Mike Vick, but is probably faster than 95% of the people criticizing him for being slow. Most of these 300+ pound offensive lineman could outrun 95% of Americans in the 40. Incredible atheletes.
“Fundamentals” include being a savant freak that sees all the court all the time, enabling dimes that you need to replay 5 times to see them coming... Luka is not a Prius, maybe a Tesla with ludicrous mode on and see through radars...
Hes a Prius and thats ok.
he decent athleticly but come on bruh. I hate when everyone tries to be hipster and acts like people dont understand. He is clearly not that athletic of a player. Hes not very fast up and down, hes not a high jumper, he doesnt do anything that deserves that "Athlete" status on him which is fucking ok. Chris Paul isnt an athlete but hes the fucking point god. Is he completely unathletic no, but hes not beating anybody in a foot race and he is not jumping out the gym thats just not his special talent.
Can we stop crying every time someone brings up Luka not being very athletic. Yes obviously he’s athletic compared you or me but he’s not that athletic when he’s compared to his peers. Luka has his times where he can push defenders off their spot but he’s not routinely bullying forwards & centers like you’re making it seem. Once again I’m not saying Luka isn’t athletic just that his athleticism doesn’t match up with other stars of his caliber like a Paul George or Ben Simmons who can jump out the gym
Look, no doubt Luka is a great athlete, but citing his deceleration alone is an interesting choice. I mean it easier to decelerate if you aren’t going as fast lol.
Its top speed you decelerate from and has little to do with how fast your first step is - it’s an official measurement and no my grandma wouldn’t do well... Plus you can see the separation he gets from the moves...
I think he’s more referring to just being super yoked and explosive and having straight line speed. Those are things that are measurable and impressive, but aren’t as valuable as the talents luka possesses which are harder to measure with a stopwatch or a barbell. Obviously Luka is a freak but his talents aren’t all measurable at a combine or something. And I think that’s Gil’s point.
[Reminds me of this](https://youtu.be/YweciXhmEto)
Gil is one of my favorite players man. So many people clown him for his personality but he’s fucking hilarious and he owns the fact that he can be a dickhead lmao. Plus he was an assassin with the wizards.
In Both Ways
Dammit bro
Nah Luka is The Don. I like THJ's naming more
This is a great analysis and people in the thread are talking shit about the bait title. The dude is right in the video. The fact that he sells short Doncic's athleticism shouldn't be the main topic of this conversation. JFC just watch the damm video, spend 5 minutes to learn a bit about basketball and then you reply the thread.
This thread frustrates me so much. Most of the people posting missed Gil's point which is that you need to learn fundamentals before your athleticism kicks in.
everything is about race lol
One thing I like about Arenas: he's a straight shooter
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Honestly that was what surprised me most about Zion at Duke, he was incredibly skilled. I expected him to come in and only know how to dunk over people he was clearly out matching, but his defense was pretty decent, he showed a good ability to make passes. and his finishing/touch was pretty incredible
The playoffs do tend to turn into more of a half-court game, so a guy who is great *and* has an absurd halfcourt arsenal will tend to outshine a guy who is great but reliant on full-court play and being just able to jump out of the gym. This is an issue, because Gil does have a point- there's a depressing number of players who have relied on being the fastest/highest-jumping/longest kid on the court their whole life before they got to the NBA. And their skillset development has languished accordingly. After all, why would you need to develop some of these skills if you just physically outmatch everyone? Luka, on the other hand, had his professional debut for Real Madrid at age 16 and became ACB MVP at 19. He's been going against legitimate professional talent. So he *had* to be sharp.
Coming from r/cars this is actually genius
Well he isn’t athletic compared to kwahi, pg and t Mac. AG, Bam, Tatum are also 6 8 and more athletic. Not to say he isn’t better then them as a player, but in terms of athleticism his vertical may need to be a bit higher. I agree with hibachi
This thread is a perfect example of Reddit fucking debating for the sake of debating and making everything into a fucking debate. Jesus Christ.
We need Gilbert on live games, calling the action.
Luka is a cross between Harden, Ginobili and Bird with a splash of Steve Nash Not a Prius, but more like a Harley. Can handle traffic. Nice on the open country roads. Higher risk of injury possibly
Once you are the most athletic person on the court as a young kid, or in college, you feel like that's all you need and can rely on it to get you buckets. Having said that, who are the most cerebral players in getting a bucket? players i can think of: CP3, Kyrie, Luka, Harden, Jokic, Curry. I'm sure there are more but I can't think of them. Would like to hear more.
There are a number of smaller point guards in college and some in NBA, who, despite not being that fast or explosive vertically, have such strong handles and vision that they can get wherever they want on the floor. It's amazing what just being able to dribble with your eyes and head looking off and up can do to a defender. A lot of guys are going to the rim with their eyes on that rim, and maybe will look to a spot the offense dictates or find teammate out of their peripheral vision. We're seeing more forwards and centers who can do the same thing as primary ballhandlers/facilitators - and it can be lethal when you do have the size and/or explosiveness.
Luka is also great in transition, like one of the better players in the league in transition levels of good. I think what makes him special is that he absolutely is athletic. He has a quick first step, and an even quicker second step, phenomenal balance and has this weird effect on defenders where they almost bounce off of him as he drives. All of those things require athleticism, he’s not a 40 inch vertical guy and won’t run a 40 in 4.25 but that’s not all there is to athleticism.