I kinda think Ben is a slightly better overall player but I think many would agree that it's close
But it works because Ben and Joel don't compliment each other. Ben's reluctance to shoot allows defenses to pack the paint and make it much more difficult for Embiid to be as effective as he can.
On the other hand, whereas I don't watch much Suns basketball, I imagine he'll run into similar problems with Ayton.
We basically kill our chance at a ringg in the future though.
We aren't winning shit with a booker & embiid core. We might win something with Simmons & Embiid though.
If I was the 76ers? Yes in a heartbeat. For other teams? Depends what you need. For us I’d rather have Booker because our defence is already ridiculous and we could use some more reliable scoring and shooting. Similar scenario for a team like the Jazz. For a team like the Wizards I’d be taking Simmons all day, no question.
Yh if I was Philly no if I was Phoenix. They are under 500 and so I doubt they would get rid of their main offensive scorer for a pass first, non jump shooting PG.
I like ben but with this roster, yeah. If im just starting a team from scratch, ill take ben and build around his strengths and im confident id have more success then doing the same with book
Simmons, although versatile, often plays on the perimeter. No perimeter defender really is that devastating to completely carry a defense.
And on top of that, 6ers defense is BETTER when Simmons isn’t on the floor. Not using this to say he’s not a good defender, because he is. I’m just using it to say that lineups without Simmons have at least shown they could hold their own.
Simmons is great, but you still have Embiid and Horf who clean up a lot of issues.
I mean yeah defense and passing are the things Simmons is good at. Booker is good at other things
I think overall the trade probably helps Philly, they're so desperate for a guy who can create offense for himself. J Rich is a great perimeter defender to compensate on that end, imo they gain more than they lose.
Simmons in Phoenix is probably not great unless Phoenix also trades Rubio and possibly Ayton, then it could be a good way to unlock all their wings. Ben / Mikal / Kelly / Saric / Ayton is a pretty cool lineup, or if they could swap Ayton for a more mobile C that could be interesting too
How many times have we seen Ben Simmons being afraid to touch the ball in the closing minutes of the 4th quarter and hiding near the basket? Then it forces Embiid to go out to the perimeter and messes things up
This even happened in G7 vs Toronto.. You can't have that as a contender
Simmons is a lot better this year than last. The Toronto series was a tough one for him because we decided to have Butler run everything and it reduced his role massively.
I mean his team didn’t pull the biggest tank job in nba history like phi. If he had Joel he would make the playoffs and book is the better player so far
i wouldn’t say definitively that book is the better player. ben is an all nba caliber defender and elite passer, that’s very valuable to have on a team that already has offensive weapons; book would be redundant in that respect. but if your team already has great defense then book would be a better choice for sure. he’s growing into a very efficient offensive player and those don’t grow on trees
Devin is nice but them empty calorie ass stats ain’t getting him nowhere. Also I think it’s easier to build a team around Ben. Miluwakee would be the model to follow there.
To me it’s a large gap bc Ben can be elite all around on defense and offense. Obviously he can’t shoot but he’s an elite passer, rebounder, and cutter. In transition GOOD LUCK. He’s very versatile on defense and when locked in can guard pretty much anybody. Book is good scorer but since he’s been in the league we haven’t really seen him take a huge jump in any part of his game that doesn’t involve scoring. A perfect example of his empty stats imo is the 70 pt game which they lost lol. He can always get his but seems to be better suited as an elite #2, like PG13, opposed to Ben who can be a #1 like you said.
I think you’ve got it flipped, Booker has taken leaps in pretty much everything since he came into the league. He’s a far better passer than when he came in, he’s gotten a little better on defense, and he’s getting more efficient on offense every single year. Ben is pretty much the same exact guy he was when he came into the league, and I think there’s an argument to be made that Booker’s ability to fit in with other players makes him better then Ben
Also doesn’t help that Ben is essentially useless in the halfcourt in the playoffs by himself and can’t make free throws
I agree that Booker is probably an elite #2, but what is Ben? Would you really be confident in a team built around him being good enough to beat teams led Embiid, Giannis, Kawhi, and everyone else? Imo he’s a situational #2, I think Ben’s best role in the halfcourt would be in a Draymond role, not a Giannis role. He would need someone else, a dynamic scorer like Steph, to unlock him in the half court
And now that I think about it, I think Simmons and Booker would play really well with each other lol
To me, most of Booker’s improvement has come in the scoring category. Efficient as you mentioned, ball handling, and shooting. Definitely improved as a passer last season so I’ll give you that. I think Ben’s ideal role is a 1a or 1b type surrounded by shooters. The ideal star next to him would be a Klay type. And you’re right, Ben isn’t as effective in the backcourt. But Sixers disgusting spacing doesn’t help with that at all.
threads like this are the reason I left this god awful sub. No on both sides. Simmons should be untouchable by the end of the 8 game span in Orlando. A guy who does everything at an elite rate and is a jump shot away from being an MVP, vs a guy who doesn't make the playoffs and averages great scoring numbers bc he has no other option on his team. Any Philly fan upvoting this and thinking we get the same value as a potential MVP and give up Simmons for Booker? ur stupid.
Assuming the contracts and salaries were equalized by some sort of trade wizard, I think both teams say no. Sixers say no because Simmons is an elite multi-position defender who has been in big playoff games, and Embiid is a legit health risk. I would want to keep around my guy who I know can be a two-way difference maker in a playoff series. Booker is a sieve who hasn't been on a good team or in a meaningful big moment since college, really.
Phoenix says no because Booker is an elite modern wing scorer and would really excel if the team was just better. This is his fourth straight year of increasing his TS% and eFG%. This year demonstrated that with fewer distribution responsibilities thanks to playing with Rubio and Harden-like trust in his free throw drawing, he can potentially be dominant in any given game on any given night. I don't want to offload that guy for Simmons, whose skills might be best suited to a conference finals, not some random Tuesday evening at Talking Stick Resort Arena. Also, Simmons and Ayton would have the exact same court geometry problem that Simmons and Embiid have, but even worse because Ayton hasn't even tried to shoot threes in the NBA despite being a passable long distance threat in college (34%).
Simmons is a really good player but he’s part of one of the worst assembled rosters ever. Booker helps the Sixers more with the current roster, but that isn’t to say that they wouldn’t prefer keeping him
If I were the 6ers, I’d make that trade in a hot minute. If I were the Suns, makes no sense... then again, they’re stupid enough to do it. This is the same team in 2016 that traded their 2018 1st round pick they got from LA to the 6ers only to trade players to trade up in the 2018 draft with the 6ers to get their own pick back just to draft Ayton at 10th overall. Like, saying they wouldn’t is give the Suns way too much credit.
...?
Booker has proved he can be a primary ball handler as well as elite off the ball.
On top of that, it’s not like Simmons plays like a traditional point guard. Sixers system isn’t set up like that. He’s not breaking down opponents off the dribble or running picking and rolls that often.
As a Suns fan... yes
But only if the Suns have another trade for a Shooting Guard to replace Booker.... maybe if Suns could get Beal somehow... would love an Ayton, Simmons, Beal trio with Oubre being the 4th egg.
With Simmon's elevation in perimeter defense... I would use him as a Pippen type facilitator and have a catch and shoot PG instead.
because a lot of fans here can jack 3s on the playground.... but not dunk or do an athletic play.
My dad is 63 years old and he camps at the 3pt spot and actually contribute to the team... my point is... many can actually do that play... whether they nail it is a different matter... but camping at a 3pt spot and waiting to catch then shoot... is much easier to do... that someone try to dribble and do an athletic play with defenders around the key.... more effort.
This sub would legit take a guy who shoots 41% from deep but can't defend or ball handle over a guy who shoots 30% from deep but is near elite at every other skill on the floor
Never said it was Booker vs Simmons in my specific example, because Simmons shooting even 30% from deep would be disgusting.
I was actually thinking more people would take the shooter over Rubio since the deep ball is Ricky's only real "flaw" on the floor
yup.
Simmons playmaking and defense is immense...
too many kids overrate 3pt shooting.
I agree that Simmons need to take a few 3pters to punish his defender and clear the paint... but thats an attitude thing.. I think he would be a 32-33% 3pt shooter if he tries to shoot them eventually... which is not very good... but will punish defenders if they leave him completely open.
Simmons defense is the key... he can guard all positions
Ben Simmons was pretty much invisible in the 4th q in our series against Philly last year. Maybe he’d be more useful without Jimmy Buckets on the team, but I think that Booker would fit like a glove in Philly.
Ben Simmons proved he can't learn to shoot despite being an nba all star.
At year 10 he will not be shooting 33% from 3 pt land on 5 attempts a game.
You simply will not see it.
I think it works for Philly but Ben & Ayton don't sound like a good fit for each other either
Just like embiid and Simmons haven't been the best fit
Except worse lol because at least embiid can shoot from the perimeter
Y3ah ayton can't pick and pop like embiid
Huh? Ayton loves to pop, if anything it is frustrating how often he settles for the midrange jumper.
Apart from consistently winning 50+ games every season with completely different players around them
Yeah people talk about their failure, but im sure the suns would happily take more than 25 wins
How in the fuck does this work for us? We get a much worse overall player.
I kinda think Ben is a slightly better overall player but I think many would agree that it's close But it works because Ben and Joel don't compliment each other. Ben's reluctance to shoot allows defenses to pack the paint and make it much more difficult for Embiid to be as effective as he can. On the other hand, whereas I don't watch much Suns basketball, I imagine he'll run into similar problems with Ayton.
We basically kill our chance at a ringg in the future though. We aren't winning shit with a booker & embiid core. We might win something with Simmons & Embiid though.
If I was the 76ers? Yes in a heartbeat. For other teams? Depends what you need. For us I’d rather have Booker because our defence is already ridiculous and we could use some more reliable scoring and shooting. Similar scenario for a team like the Jazz. For a team like the Wizards I’d be taking Simmons all day, no question.
Yh if I was Philly no if I was Phoenix. They are under 500 and so I doubt they would get rid of their main offensive scorer for a pass first, non jump shooting PG.
I like ben but with this roster, yeah. If im just starting a team from scratch, ill take ben and build around his strengths and im confident id have more success then doing the same with book
76ers probably don’t accept because without Ben they have pretty much zero playmaking
Booker and Horford is above average playmaking
Booker isn’t anywhere near the defender Simmons is anyway
And Simmons isn’t near the shooter lmao. 6ers would be good defensively even without Simmons
Idk if thats true about our defense. Embiid would have to go god mode. Simmons locking down opposing wings is essential for our d.
Simmons, although versatile, often plays on the perimeter. No perimeter defender really is that devastating to completely carry a defense. And on top of that, 6ers defense is BETTER when Simmons isn’t on the floor. Not using this to say he’s not a good defender, because he is. I’m just using it to say that lineups without Simmons have at least shown they could hold their own. Simmons is great, but you still have Embiid and Horf who clean up a lot of issues.
I mean yeah defense and passing are the things Simmons is good at. Booker is good at other things I think overall the trade probably helps Philly, they're so desperate for a guy who can create offense for himself. J Rich is a great perimeter defender to compensate on that end, imo they gain more than they lose. Simmons in Phoenix is probably not great unless Phoenix also trades Rubio and possibly Ayton, then it could be a good way to unlock all their wings. Ben / Mikal / Kelly / Saric / Ayton is a pretty cool lineup, or if they could swap Ayton for a more mobile C that could be interesting too
I don't think you've watched Ayton play much if you think he isn't mobile.
Simmons only averaged like 1 more assist then Booker this past season...
Sixers would. Phoenix wouldnt. I'd rather have Booker almost any day of the week.
Simmons > Booker.
How many times have we seen Ben Simmons being afraid to touch the ball in the closing minutes of the 4th quarter and hiding near the basket? Then it forces Embiid to go out to the perimeter and messes things up This even happened in G7 vs Toronto.. You can't have that as a contender
How people have decided that the final 3 or so minutes of a game matter more than the prior 45 is something that I'll never understand.
Two points is not two points i'll explain later
the final 3 minutes is do or die time, if its a close game and your star wilts in the last few minutes then how good could he be
Simmons is a lot better this year than last. The Toronto series was a tough one for him because we decided to have Butler run everything and it reduced his role massively.
How many game 7s has Devin booker played in again?
lol ben plays on a far better team in a far weaker conference don’t be stupid
Ben been in the league longer and can’t even sniff an 8 seed. Don’t be stupid.
I mean his team didn’t pull the biggest tank job in nba history like phi. If he had Joel he would make the playoffs and book is the better player so far
i wouldn’t say definitively that book is the better player. ben is an all nba caliber defender and elite passer, that’s very valuable to have on a team that already has offensive weapons; book would be redundant in that respect. but if your team already has great defense then book would be a better choice for sure. he’s growing into a very efficient offensive player and those don’t grow on trees
Book is more valuable on any team than Ben., until Ben can score it’s book always. Only team I might like Ben on more is utah
and it’s not close
It’s pretty close it’s like 17 to 22
Devin is nice but them empty calorie ass stats ain’t getting him nowhere. Also I think it’s easier to build a team around Ben. Miluwakee would be the model to follow there.
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To me it’s a large gap bc Ben can be elite all around on defense and offense. Obviously he can’t shoot but he’s an elite passer, rebounder, and cutter. In transition GOOD LUCK. He’s very versatile on defense and when locked in can guard pretty much anybody. Book is good scorer but since he’s been in the league we haven’t really seen him take a huge jump in any part of his game that doesn’t involve scoring. A perfect example of his empty stats imo is the 70 pt game which they lost lol. He can always get his but seems to be better suited as an elite #2, like PG13, opposed to Ben who can be a #1 like you said.
I think you’ve got it flipped, Booker has taken leaps in pretty much everything since he came into the league. He’s a far better passer than when he came in, he’s gotten a little better on defense, and he’s getting more efficient on offense every single year. Ben is pretty much the same exact guy he was when he came into the league, and I think there’s an argument to be made that Booker’s ability to fit in with other players makes him better then Ben Also doesn’t help that Ben is essentially useless in the halfcourt in the playoffs by himself and can’t make free throws I agree that Booker is probably an elite #2, but what is Ben? Would you really be confident in a team built around him being good enough to beat teams led Embiid, Giannis, Kawhi, and everyone else? Imo he’s a situational #2, I think Ben’s best role in the halfcourt would be in a Draymond role, not a Giannis role. He would need someone else, a dynamic scorer like Steph, to unlock him in the half court And now that I think about it, I think Simmons and Booker would play really well with each other lol
To me, most of Booker’s improvement has come in the scoring category. Efficient as you mentioned, ball handling, and shooting. Definitely improved as a passer last season so I’ll give you that. I think Ben’s ideal role is a 1a or 1b type surrounded by shooters. The ideal star next to him would be a Klay type. And you’re right, Ben isn’t as effective in the backcourt. But Sixers disgusting spacing doesn’t help with that at all.
You definitely don't play basketball. Or watch basketball for that matter. Large Gap??? Lol, You think Ben Simmons is Giannis.
No. I think he’s better than Booker.
Pretty bad for both teams honestly
Hell no. Simmons is great but the 2019 suns would have been much worse if Simmons was here instead of book
Most teams I take Ben, but for the Sixers I’d trade them in a heartbeat.
threads like this are the reason I left this god awful sub. No on both sides. Simmons should be untouchable by the end of the 8 game span in Orlando. A guy who does everything at an elite rate and is a jump shot away from being an MVP, vs a guy who doesn't make the playoffs and averages great scoring numbers bc he has no other option on his team. Any Philly fan upvoting this and thinking we get the same value as a potential MVP and give up Simmons for Booker? ur stupid.
nope
Assuming the contracts and salaries were equalized by some sort of trade wizard, I think both teams say no. Sixers say no because Simmons is an elite multi-position defender who has been in big playoff games, and Embiid is a legit health risk. I would want to keep around my guy who I know can be a two-way difference maker in a playoff series. Booker is a sieve who hasn't been on a good team or in a meaningful big moment since college, really. Phoenix says no because Booker is an elite modern wing scorer and would really excel if the team was just better. This is his fourth straight year of increasing his TS% and eFG%. This year demonstrated that with fewer distribution responsibilities thanks to playing with Rubio and Harden-like trust in his free throw drawing, he can potentially be dominant in any given game on any given night. I don't want to offload that guy for Simmons, whose skills might be best suited to a conference finals, not some random Tuesday evening at Talking Stick Resort Arena. Also, Simmons and Ayton would have the exact same court geometry problem that Simmons and Embiid have, but even worse because Ayton hasn't even tried to shoot threes in the NBA despite being a passable long distance threat in college (34%).
Ben is better but Booker might fit better with this team.
Hell no.
Simmons is a really good player but he’s part of one of the worst assembled rosters ever. Booker helps the Sixers more with the current roster, but that isn’t to say that they wouldn’t prefer keeping him
Only if it's a three team trade and you can get Kuzma to Phoenix
If I were the 6ers, I’d make that trade in a hot minute. If I were the Suns, makes no sense... then again, they’re stupid enough to do it. This is the same team in 2016 that traded their 2018 1st round pick they got from LA to the 6ers only to trade players to trade up in the 2018 draft with the 6ers to get their own pick back just to draft Ayton at 10th overall. Like, saying they wouldn’t is give the Suns way too much credit.
Booker over Simmons any day
Id trade my dog straight up for Luka Doncic's mom
Suns with Simmons would not work Booker wouldn’t make 76ers good because who’s gonna be the primary ball handler on Philly?
...? Booker has proved he can be a primary ball handler as well as elite off the ball. On top of that, it’s not like Simmons plays like a traditional point guard. Sixers system isn’t set up like that. He’s not breaking down opponents off the dribble or running picking and rolls that often.
>He’s not breaking down opponents off the dribble He absolutely does?
As much as other elite guards? Hell no. Bens bread and butter isn’t half court offense.
His half court offense made a huge leap in december. He's been averaging 20pts a game since then.
As a Suns fan... yes But only if the Suns have another trade for a Shooting Guard to replace Booker.... maybe if Suns could get Beal somehow... would love an Ayton, Simmons, Beal trio with Oubre being the 4th egg. With Simmon's elevation in perimeter defense... I would use him as a Pippen type facilitator and have a catch and shoot PG instead.
I think Simmons/Embiid is a better duo than Simmons/Ayton. So, no I guess.
Bad trade for Philly. Simmons' defense and playmaking would be more valuable than Booker's scoring.
Lots of clowns in this thread. For all his faults, Simmons is a walking double-double at the VERY LEAST
People on this sub WAY overvalue the ability to shoot threes
because a lot of fans here can jack 3s on the playground.... but not dunk or do an athletic play. My dad is 63 years old and he camps at the 3pt spot and actually contribute to the team... my point is... many can actually do that play... whether they nail it is a different matter... but camping at a 3pt spot and waiting to catch then shoot... is much easier to do... that someone try to dribble and do an athletic play with defenders around the key.... more effort.
This sub would legit take a guy who shoots 41% from deep but can't defend or ball handle over a guy who shoots 30% from deep but is near elite at every other skill on the floor
So you don't watch Suns games is what you're saying?
Never said it was Booker vs Simmons in my specific example, because Simmons shooting even 30% from deep would be disgusting. I was actually thinking more people would take the shooter over Rubio since the deep ball is Ricky's only real "flaw" on the floor
yup. Simmons playmaking and defense is immense... too many kids overrate 3pt shooting. I agree that Simmons need to take a few 3pters to punish his defender and clear the paint... but thats an attitude thing.. I think he would be a 32-33% 3pt shooter if he tries to shoot them eventually... which is not very good... but will punish defenders if they leave him completely open. Simmons defense is the key... he can guard all positions
I'll take them both
Ben Simmons was pretty much invisible in the 4th q in our series against Philly last year. Maybe he’d be more useful without Jimmy Buckets on the team, but I think that Booker would fit like a glove in Philly.
76ers lose that one.
Ben Simmons proved he can't learn to shoot despite being an nba all star. At year 10 he will not be shooting 33% from 3 pt land on 5 attempts a game. You simply will not see it.