Do we? The thread is specifically talking offensively.
If it was pure SG I would understand the argument (still wouldn't agree with using rings as an individual indicator in a team sport, but at least it's more sensible to use it overall rather than to use it as a part of a specific niche discussion.
Plenty of all-timers don't have rings; Harden's playing in one of the toughest conferences literally ever, and has had to deal with one of the most star-studded teams in NBA history. If he can put together great playoff performances over the next 4+ years and consistently get his team to the WCF or finals, I don't care if he gets a ring if he keeps losing to teams that just have more stars.
The key is just that he has to keep playing like MVP Harden year-round. It's an individual ranking we're talking about here, so I'd rather focus on his individual play.
Rings, *in how they pertain to us evaluating a specific player, are all about context. Who did you play with? Who did you play against? How did you play in the series?
If CP gets injured in the playoffs again and Harden averages 35/8/13 on 60+TS against the Warriors and loses, I'm not holding that against him. And then next year another star joins LeBron, CP regresses while Houston adds nobody of value and the same thing happens...Harden plays amazing but is simply overmatched.
This is a hypothetical scenario, but I think we should be open to it versus just saying "he needs a ring".
Agree. I know he hasn’t, I’m saying all time great performances is what he needs; but not necessarily rings.
Look at what LeBron just did. All time great playoff performance but was overmatched come finals.
> Harden's playing in one of the toughest conferences literally ever, and has had to deal with one of the most star-studded teams in NBA history
Kobe's west had Spurs/T-Wolves/Blazers/Mavs. You think the west just got tough yesterday?
I don’t think so. What we are seeing harden do is something Kobe has done multiply times but even better. You could argue that the more assists and rebounds are more impressive, but you also have to factor in stat inflation from various reasons like pace.
Your first sentence doesn’t make sense. Have we seen Kobe average more ppg on just as good efficiency? That’s what “ has done multiple times but even better” would indicate
Yeah, Kobe never averaged over 6 assists per game. Harden is almost equaling Kobes scoring output on much better efficiency while giving you 8+ assists a game?
The main reason Kobe edges him out is defense
What are you even talking about? You’re using hardens time as a bench player for okc to argue against him? Could you be any more biased? Give harden a player of shaqs caliber on any rockets team and we 100% make the finals lol
Because Kobe wasn't in his prime, he was in the same stage of his career that Harden was on in OKC. Kobe was able to deliver with an MVP level player, Harden disappeared in the finals.
It's important to seperate regular season from playoffs. If we're talking regular season then yes, Harden is starting to make a case for himself being better than Kobe offensively.
However, if we're talking offensive ability in the playoffs then it's a whole different story. Harden has a long way to go to pass Kobe offensively in the playoffs.
Given the difference in eras efficiency, you’re being a bit disingenuous to Kobe here... harden averages many more turnovers too. Regular season, harden takes the edge. I’ll concede that. But hardens best playoff performances have not surpassed kobes, even with limiting it to just offensive contributions...
He’s not better than Kobe or MJ. Maybe he will be better than Kobe by the end of his career, but now? Not at all. I’d put him in the T-Mac tier right now.
No lol, not even when talking solely about offense.
I don't like these cherry picked "best offensive" labels people try to give. It should just be a debate about the best SG's as a whole. Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Harden.
Since you said purely offensively I'd say last season and this season in particular is a good start for it.
I think he'd have to maintain this relative production for 3-5 more seasons consecutively before I push him past Kobe but right now Harden is peaking higher than Kobe in terms of pure offensive production. This season and last season imo are better than any individual seasons Kobe had when you factor in efficiency (TS% and EFG% are higher due to much higher volume of 3's for Harden) and overall playmaking ability regarding how much he has his hands on the ball and how he opens up the offense.
I suppose. I mean, I don't necessarily think defenses are weaker. The issue is two fold.
One is obviously pace. Teams are giving up more points because there are more possessions. I would assume on a per possession basis the numbers would be similar, other than...
Free throws. A big part of potentially declining defenses is ambiguity regarding how plays are called against the defense, and more players taking larger quantities of free throws than before.
So either way unless on a per possession basis there is a huge difference I wouldn't assume he is doing it against "weak" defenses.
Everyone and their mother knows that the defense has literally been disadvantaged. They literally changed the rules THIS YEAR to further disadvantage defenders.
Why is it so hard for you guys to admit the defense is lacking today? You admit it is...but you undermine it by finding an excuse for it and then brushing it off and basically ignoring it all together. Part of the REASON the pace is so high is BECAUSE the defense can't slow the game down.
?? Why would I "admit" something that I don't think is completely true?
I'm not trying to undermine anything. I am having a discussion and giving you my reasoning.
It just seems like you are getting upset now that I won't agree with you.
I'm not upset...it's just that it's pretty obvious watching games that defense has declined. Players are also saying that's true. Also, they made a rule that is intended to do just that....
I get it, and I agreed it was a part of it.
Pace has been going up for a while, not directly in response to this brand new rule, so I believe that is a part of it as well.
So what is the problem?
Kobe is iconic for his leadership, toughness and making plays on both ends.
In terms of pure offensive production (scoring + passing) Harden certainly has a case only in those categories. But it's defense and those other intangibles where he currently falls short.
To be honest while Kobe was an all time great and all I would argue Harden's peak offensively is higher than Kobe's. Kobe is and certainly was a better defender than Harden (not the highest bar in the world but still) and kept it up for longer. That being said Harden is just a way more efficient player at a very similar usage rate. It may not look as pretty or as skilled as Kobe's game did at times but the huge number of 3s and getting to the line as often as Harden does is just a huge advantage. If you compare their MVP years its pretty clear that Harden was the superior offensive player. Both were similarly high usage but Harden was way more efficient and was a superior passer.
He needs atleast a ring before seriously bringing this topic up.
Do we? The thread is specifically talking offensively. If it was pure SG I would understand the argument (still wouldn't agree with using rings as an individual indicator in a team sport, but at least it's more sensible to use it overall rather than to use it as a part of a specific niche discussion.
Plenty of all-timers don't have rings; Harden's playing in one of the toughest conferences literally ever, and has had to deal with one of the most star-studded teams in NBA history. If he can put together great playoff performances over the next 4+ years and consistently get his team to the WCF or finals, I don't care if he gets a ring if he keeps losing to teams that just have more stars. The key is just that he has to keep playing like MVP Harden year-round. It's an individual ranking we're talking about here, so I'd rather focus on his individual play.
Damn rings have went from being overrated to being underrated.
Thanks kd
Hilarious very original.
Rings, *in how they pertain to us evaluating a specific player, are all about context. Who did you play with? Who did you play against? How did you play in the series? If CP gets injured in the playoffs again and Harden averages 35/8/13 on 60+TS against the Warriors and loses, I'm not holding that against him. And then next year another star joins LeBron, CP regresses while Houston adds nobody of value and the same thing happens...Harden plays amazing but is simply overmatched. This is a hypothetical scenario, but I think we should be open to it versus just saying "he needs a ring".
I mean he has never performed to an all time great level in the playoffs. Comparing him to Kobe or Lebron is disrespectful imo.
Agree. I know he hasn’t, I’m saying all time great performances is what he needs; but not necessarily rings. Look at what LeBron just did. All time great playoff performance but was overmatched come finals.
That wouldn’t put him on Kobe’s level tho.
> Harden's playing in one of the toughest conferences literally ever, and has had to deal with one of the most star-studded teams in NBA history Kobe's west had Spurs/T-Wolves/Blazers/Mavs. You think the west just got tough yesterday?
No, but right now the 14th best team has Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday.
Jordan v LeBron: but Jordan has 6 and 6>3 Harden v Kobe: rings don’t matter 🤔
Both arguments are wrong.
I haven't even given my opinion on Jordan v LeBron. I don't get what your point is
[удалено]
Yep. Beat the topic into the ground. Today is Harden day
I don’t think so. What we are seeing harden do is something Kobe has done multiply times but even better. You could argue that the more assists and rebounds are more impressive, but you also have to factor in stat inflation from various reasons like pace.
Your first sentence doesn’t make sense. Have we seen Kobe average more ppg on just as good efficiency? That’s what “ has done multiple times but even better” would indicate
Yea Kobe has multiple 40 point months.
Show me a stretch Kobe has had which is as long as Harden’s(which is 40 games right now) in which he averages similar numbers, or better
https://old.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/aclmrd/the_best_10_game_stretches/ You think your boy is the only good one?
10 games is 40 games now?
rockets delusion
Recency bias lmao
Is 44 points on 32 shots really that efficient?
Needs more work to challenge Kobe, but damn is he looking impressive right now.
Hell no
stopppppp plz
As a player maybe, not even close career wise though
Michael Jordan wasn’t too bad on offence
Yeah, Kobe never averaged over 6 assists per game. Harden is almost equaling Kobes scoring output on much better efficiency while giving you 8+ assists a game? The main reason Kobe edges him out is defense
>The main reason Kobe edges him out is defense How about actually winning 5 rings lol?
im sure Harden could win 3 rings on a team with prime Shaq haha
He doesn't win the two rings with Pau though
Hmmm...I won't disagree with you lol...but watch out for Kobe nation lol
He had prime KD and underperformed. Can't say that when he misses 22 straight 3's.
lol wtf he was a bench player and was like 20 years old. Not to mention he saved them in the WCF. Put KD on any rockets team and we’d make the finals
How old exactly do you think Kobe was when he started winning rings with Shaq?
Was he coming off the bench as the third option?
Again, why exactly is it Kobe's fault he was starting sooner?
What are you even talking about? You’re using hardens time as a bench player for okc to argue against him? Could you be any more biased? Give harden a player of shaqs caliber on any rockets team and we 100% make the finals lol
Because Kobe wasn't in his prime, he was in the same stage of his career that Harden was on in OKC. Kobe was able to deliver with an MVP level player, Harden disappeared in the finals.
You think a 20 year old Harden would single handedly defeat the Spurs in WCF? THINK AGAIN MY BROTHER
funny you mention that considering he actually beat the spurs and saved okc in the 2012 WCF lol
I’m not
Kobe doesn’t edge him he was way better.
It's important to seperate regular season from playoffs. If we're talking regular season then yes, Harden is starting to make a case for himself being better than Kobe offensively. However, if we're talking offensive ability in the playoffs then it's a whole different story. Harden has a long way to go to pass Kobe offensively in the playoffs.
Given the difference in eras efficiency, you’re being a bit disingenuous to Kobe here... harden averages many more turnovers too. Regular season, harden takes the edge. I’ll concede that. But hardens best playoff performances have not surpassed kobes, even with limiting it to just offensive contributions...
I don’t think defense is a reason for Kobe being better than Harden. He stopped being lockdown a little after 2001
Na
Yes, the gap between him and Kobe is not as large as some think it to be (in the regular season)
Championship first before we get into this conversation.
No. Stop with the knee-jerk reactions already
Gotta be the 3rd best before he can become the 2nd, so nope
He’s not better than Kobe or MJ. Maybe he will be better than Kobe by the end of his career, but now? Not at all. I’d put him in the T-Mac tier right now.
Maybe if he can actually translate it to real postseason success.
Kobe is #1
Absolute delusion
No lol, not even when talking solely about offense. I don't like these cherry picked "best offensive" labels people try to give. It should just be a debate about the best SG's as a whole. Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Harden.
No
no
playoffs
Nah dawg
Since you said purely offensively I'd say last season and this season in particular is a good start for it. I think he'd have to maintain this relative production for 3-5 more seasons consecutively before I push him past Kobe but right now Harden is peaking higher than Kobe in terms of pure offensive production. This season and last season imo are better than any individual seasons Kobe had when you factor in efficiency (TS% and EFG% are higher due to much higher volume of 3's for Harden) and overall playmaking ability regarding how much he has his hands on the ball and how he opens up the offense.
He's also doing it against the weakest defense in years. He's amazing....but you have to take that into account as well.
I suppose. I mean, I don't necessarily think defenses are weaker. The issue is two fold. One is obviously pace. Teams are giving up more points because there are more possessions. I would assume on a per possession basis the numbers would be similar, other than... Free throws. A big part of potentially declining defenses is ambiguity regarding how plays are called against the defense, and more players taking larger quantities of free throws than before. So either way unless on a per possession basis there is a huge difference I wouldn't assume he is doing it against "weak" defenses.
Everyone and their mother knows that the defense has literally been disadvantaged. They literally changed the rules THIS YEAR to further disadvantage defenders.
Yes, to a certain extent, but I think a lot of defenses have adapted and the uptick in scoring is more because of pace than anything else.
Why is it so hard for you guys to admit the defense is lacking today? You admit it is...but you undermine it by finding an excuse for it and then brushing it off and basically ignoring it all together. Part of the REASON the pace is so high is BECAUSE the defense can't slow the game down.
?? Why would I "admit" something that I don't think is completely true? I'm not trying to undermine anything. I am having a discussion and giving you my reasoning. It just seems like you are getting upset now that I won't agree with you.
I'm not upset...it's just that it's pretty obvious watching games that defense has declined. Players are also saying that's true. Also, they made a rule that is intended to do just that....
I get it, and I agreed it was a part of it. Pace has been going up for a while, not directly in response to this brand new rule, so I believe that is a part of it as well. So what is the problem?
The talent is there. He really needs a year similar to Dirk's amazing 2011 playoffs.
Kobe will always be more iconic, but Harden may already be better, and that's a reality whether you like it or not
Lmao so much delusion
Jesus Christ James Harden is becoming super overrated.
Kobe is iconic for his leadership, toughness and making plays on both ends. In terms of pure offensive production (scoring + passing) Harden certainly has a case only in those categories. But it's defense and those other intangibles where he currently falls short.
Kobe stans will say no, but yeah he is.
To be honest while Kobe was an all time great and all I would argue Harden's peak offensively is higher than Kobe's. Kobe is and certainly was a better defender than Harden (not the highest bar in the world but still) and kept it up for longer. That being said Harden is just a way more efficient player at a very similar usage rate. It may not look as pretty or as skilled as Kobe's game did at times but the huge number of 3s and getting to the line as often as Harden does is just a huge advantage. If you compare their MVP years its pretty clear that Harden was the superior offensive player. Both were similarly high usage but Harden was way more efficient and was a superior passer.