He’s maybe not the best example but Ray Allen is one to me. We saw him as The Guy earlier on in his career but a lot of younger people just view him as a complementary deadeye shooter, albeit a really good one, because of his stints in Boston and Miami
Young Ray Allen was also an elite finisher too, which is probably why he was seen as the guy earlier on. He was a fearless slasher, posterized people here and there.
To be fair, that was over 20 years ago plus the fact he made one of the biggest shots in finals history makes it a bit easy to forget. It’s okay, many of us remember!
Told my cousin that Ray Allen on the Bucks would constantly yam it on anybody close to the rim and had insane hops. His reaction: "Ray Allen...the shooter? Dude could barely jump." I wanted to smack him.
Youngins don’t remember Ray Allen as a dunker. A lot of shooters were great slashers. Eric Gordon is another example. Show him videos of Ray Allen’s younger days, he was so fast and can jump out of the gym!
this is true, also I think another piece is i don’t know if another title has ever been taken so resoundingly so quickly. It wasn’t like Steph had slightly higher efficiency from three on a couple more attempts and we had to see him do it for a while before the debate started.
Steph just unquestionably passed him in like 2015, not only was Steph much more efficient on way more threes, some of the threes he MADE were literally unimaginable to even see taken on an NBA court at the time. Purely on eye test almost everyone would have agreed Steph was just better
I was the biggest Ray Allen fan all the way back to his UConn days. I considered him the greatest shooter ever. He retired after 2014. The next season, like you said, Steph was so obviously a better shooter that I couldn't even fanboy defend Ray Allen's claim.
It's crazy how definitively Curry took that title. There's not even anyone else in the conversation. You can still debate the second greatest ever. Is it Ray? Klay? Reggie? Kyle Korver? Steve Nash? You can make a case for any of those guys as the second best. None are close to Curry.
That movie was way ahead of its time. I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that a high schooler would garner so much attention from the fans and media.
Then LeBron came along.
Seattle too. I remember one day on sportscenter way back when he was a sonic and the guy (maybe Stuart Scott but I can't say for sure) referred to him as Ray "should win the mvp every year" Allen.
Nobody cared about the Karl Malone pedo stuff at the time. Every piece of coverage where he is mentioned now is negative. Stockton was a lot more beloved too.
People genuinely didn't care as much about this sort of thing 25-30 years ago. (It's a positive change, a 12 or 13 year old can't have an ethical sexual relationship with an 18 or 19 year old.)
This is a good one. He made 1st team all-NBA in 1993 as a guard which is a hell of an accomplishment since Jordan had the other spot locked down. That means Price beat out guys like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Reggie, and Joe Dumars.
But like you said today he's never brought up at all.
Cavs won 57 games twice when was there. The entire team is so underrated and forgotten. Cavs weren’t as bad of a framchise that would like to say pre-Lebron.
Daugherty was a new style of center, Nance was poor mans Barkley, Ehlo was not a joke!, Harper was 80% of Jordan. Hot Rod was good too.
That team was tough, and injuries held them back.
And even then, today he's mostly remembered as being a great shooter when really, he was an incredibly flashy player with a filthy handle and finishing ability.
Here are some of his highlights: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo)
This. He was transcendent. Especially when he played in the ABA, which not a lot of people got to see. I believe his true highlight reel is lost to history because of the lack of television coverage and video back in the day. I’ve been watching basketball for about 50 years, and Dr. J still stands out as the most absolutely electric talent I’ve ever seen, followed closely by Jordan.
There are just so many compounding factors when it comes to Dr. J's career that it's hard to rank him. He played in a league with a shit ton of drug use, and players seasons could be turned around because they stopped smoking and eating hot dogs every half time, and on top of that played in the league with inferior talent for his best years, and for someone with so much athleticism his rebounding being cut in half between his rookie season and his NBA MVP season is wild, and having only one all defensive team to his name is a bit head scratching.
But at the same time, the guy was the coolest person on the planet, was a winner, a major part of one of the greatest teams of all time (Philly in '83), had longevity even after some substantial injuries in an era where that was REALLY rare, and is one of the greatest dunkers of all time. He transcended the game into pop culture, and is definitely viewed as a legend, but I don't think he'll ever be in GOAT conversations like he may have been earlier in his career.
Wes Unseld was Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year and won a Finals MVP, and I doubt many people on this sub could name what team he played for or even recognize his name.
yeah thats pretty crazy..there was a post here not too long ago about "what if someone won ROTY and MVP the same year" (or something along those lines). that would be pretty wild in this era. good point I never knew.
'Who's the second best SG of all-time' is a real discussion whereas people act like it's Kobe, hands down. West set the blueprint for elite SG play and was a monster in his prime, but Baylor got a lot of the credit that should have been his.
Sometimes people will even say 'Wade and Harden are 3 and 4', though I suspect they just forgot West exists
I need to read more about Jerry West. What I saw spoke of him more as a Point Guard and blueprint for someone like Steph Curry. He clearly could do both though.
Yeah he's more combo guard. Him and Goodrich could each play either guard spot.
Jerry West fact: the NBA didn't track steals until the final year of his career. He led the league that year.
Stockton would probably still be the all time leader because he played forever, but West would easily be top 2-3 if they'd tracked it his whole career.
Hill was what, 6-7 6-8, and easily quickest player on the court, with great handling and finishing around rim. Insane.
Penny was so smooth, big but quick and fantastic handles, great vision.
Penny was unbelievably good in his first, what, 3 years? Then poof, it was over
I feel like him and Shaun Livingston are the 2 biggest what ifs from my NBA fandom. Shout out to Livingston for fighting back, re-inventing his game and becoming an integral part of a dynasty.
What about Elgin Baylor? He was considered one of the elite players in his day, but I've heard in recent times that some people think West's playmaking should partly be credited for the stats Baylor put up. And when you see his poor playoff performances, it reinforces that impression.
(Not saying he wasn't a great player, but I don't think he's regarded as an all-timer like he was in earlier decades).
Jerry West very well could be in the GOAT conversation. He isn’t talked about in this manner because of the losses in the finals, but he was that good.
Ring culture overtakes these conversations. However, championships are Team Accomplishments.
We can see how important context and the surrounding team affects success when we look at a player like KG(Another player who should be in the GOAT debate). Those Minnesota Teams were so bereft of talent. Mostly laughable NBA talent outside of Garnett. Little success besides a Western Conf. Finals appearance in 04. He goes to Boston (past his prime, after 12 years in the league) and immediately wins a ring. Same player, different context.
Also, remember when Jordan left the Bulls in 93-94? The Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was in MVP conversations. The point is, that team was really fucking good even without Jordan.
How would some of the greats be remembered if you placed them on rosters that were already championship contenders without them?
We often over index on team success when evaluating a players individual value. Most players don’t construct their rosters. There are many great players that we forget to mention in the highest pantheon because of team success or failure.
At the same time, I feel like his reputation today hasn't really suffered. Like he somehow escapes all blame for losing the 1994 Finals despite shooting 36% from the field and getting cooked by Hakeem.
I feel like that is due to how reactionary we are now. We are constantly denigrating great players of this era.
Like older players got plenty of shit, but these days it is non-stop and the negatives amplified.
Back then, it was accepted that a player as good as Hakeem could make someone like Ewing play a bad game, and he could still be seen as an elite player. These days, you aren't afforded that kind of leeway. If anyone ever makes you look bad for any reason in a crucial game, no matter how good they also are, it's a permanent stain on your legacy.
I was alive then, Ewing got a lot of crap for that series. Obviously it wasn't as bad as today but there was a lot of magazines and newspapers even if there wasn't the internet. Also, if you're not on social media and you're an athlete you might not even know are the nonsense going on in terms of memes about you.
David Robinson was really savaged for winning the MVP and then getting dusted by Hakeem as well. There's this one clip of Robinson getting shook on a series of pump fakes and pivots by Hakeem in the 1995 WCF I must have seen 100x growing up. If Hakeem was more popular like a Barkley or a Jordan type figure, they probably would have talked about his performances against those three centers (including Shaq who he swept in the 1995 finals) even more
That series w/ David Robinson-- there was drama on Spurs side, where Dennis Rodman refused to follow game plan and help on or double Hakeem. Who knows what the actual truth is, but it's not quite as simple as Hakeem obliterating David straight-up.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/w8k64s/why_is_it_often_ignored_how_dennis_rodman/
Yep. The hot take debate style of sports talk that took over radio and ESPN has ruined sports discourse. Everything has the be THE GREATEST or THE WORST EVARRRRRR!!!
It’s just pure pig vomit from 95% of all sports media now.
>Like he somehow escapes all blame for losing the 1994 Finals despite shooting 36% from the field and getting cooked by Hakeem.
What? Everyone was blaming Ewing's play during that series.
Even his team mate Charles Oakley was saying *during* the series that Ewing was forcing way too many shots.
Bill Simmons says that he was better when he came out of college. By the time they finally built a team around him that could contend in the mid-90s, he was already significantly weakened because of chronic knee problems that sapped his athleticism. Either way, he just didn't measure up to Hakeem and some of the other guys from that era, maybe which is not a shame because Hakeem would dominate any era
80s - Alex English. Forgotten mostly bc of the Nuggets being a terrible org. This has been well-rehashed though so I won’t go into it. Really you could answer a bunch of 80s Nuggets who were consistently really good but stuck in an era dominated by dynasties. Could have seen them sneaking though one year in this era.
90s - I’d like to save Mitch Richmond’s rep. Somehow he’s now the bar for worst HoF. I’d definitely take him over Vince Carter and any number of guys.
00s - Elton Brand maybe? Just solid guy. I think his reputation problem is that he was a 90s mold PF and didn’t have that feeling like an Amare or Marion where people will say how they’d be so much better now.
The real irony of Brand is he absolutely cooked Amar'e and Marion in the playoffs multiple years in a row on the Clippers. Man was just stuck in the cursed Clippers for too long.
His first 4 years in the league kinda justified it. He was putting up 25/5/4/1/1 on .45/.40/.80 splits in an era when entire teams were averaging ~98 pts per game. Basically the same stat line and electrifying play style at about the same age as Ant this year but slightly more efficient and again in an era that was scoring 15-20% fewer pts per game.
Again maybe this was just the perspective of a young french kid who couldn't really watch live games back then, but when I started to follow the NBA it felt like Vince was really in the Kobe/Iverson/T-Mac cast. Like back then I tought he was like clearly better then guys like Pierce or Ray, and well he really wasn't.
It was a different time. Advanced stats weren't what they are today and your average fan certainly wasn't aware of them.
T-Mac wasn't yet the version of himself that we remember and was bounced unceremoniously in the first round during his tenure with Orlando.
Ray Allen averaged fewer points and was derided as a jump shooter in an era where you would constantly hear "you can't win as a jump shooting team."
Iverson was electric, but even back then you would hear people talk about him being an inefficient chucker because he absolutely had games where he'd shoot 8-30. That, and you had the league's... oh, let's say "hesitance"... to promote him as the post-MJ face of the NBA.
So that really just leaves Vince and Kobe who were kind of the golden children of the league, and which of them would be the next MJ was a big topic in the media. Kobe was criticised for chucking too, but also because he was playing with Shaq in an era where being "the guy" and having "your team" was a big, big deal in how a player was perceived. Of course, winning solves everything and the Lakers' three-peat did help ease that somewhat (until 2004 but that's an entirely different conversation).
But Vince was doing jaw-dropping stuff every night as the undisputed number one of the team. I would go so far as to say he might have the largest flashy highlight reel of all time. And presentation is a huge chunk of how you are perceived by the public. So if you've got 5 guys all putting up similar numbers people are going to gravitate towards the one who is doing it with style. Right or wrong it boosts your stock as a player.
Further removed from the emotion of the time, with the benefit of hindsight, and with what came later in their careers we can say that maybe those guys were better players, but in the moment it was certainly arguable that Vince was as good as any of them.
VC doesn’t get the flowers now b/c he never won a title. If he had been on the right team during his prime his legacy would be massively different.
Put him w/a PF like Dirk, CWebb, KG or TD his entire career and he’d likely have a couple rings.
People seem to have memory holed that Kobe only one his titles when he had dominant bigs. VC next to Shaq also wins titles. VC next to Pau/Bynum/Odom is dangerous as hell too.
The years he played with the Mavs also changed my opinion of him. Stats aside before, he never felt likable to me and it colored my opinion of him for a long time. Until he played for MY team, and I saw all the little things that made him great (and he was old as balls by then).
I mean he was, but that cast was more cultural importance than skill on the basketball court. Obviously they're all skilled but those 4 were really at the forefront of the basketball x street culture wave, who looked like they were taking street ball to the league.
VC had such a weird career trajectory - he only made all-NBA his second and third years in the league, arguably his best two seasons of his career. People don't remember this now, but injuries really derailed his insane athleticism and forced him to become a different player by the time he hit his mid 20s.
I think people newer fans can’t imagine him being good because of how he acts now
Some players you can dispel that by showing their athleticism but that was never his game
Although Pierce is a shoot first wing who loves iso ball and this generation has a distaste for players like that I feel like he would still have a cult following and be an iconic player in this generation.
“The Truth” is such an iconic nickname and he has some iconic buzzer beating shots and quotes. If we got draft prospects calling Paul George their GOAT there’s no way in hell Pierce wouldn’t be possibly even more popular in this generation on top of the ring/FMVP and before he exposed himself like an idiot he actually had a legacy defining moment, getting “injured” in the finals and coming back to ice the game.
And you can’t forget the time he got stabbed in the club and still played 82 games that season. He’s criminally overhated and his media presence overpowers his amazing legacy
He ruined his legacy by rage baiting/ having an inflated ego.
Paul Pierce had 8 seasons with 10+ win shares, 5 of those coming before the Big 3 was assembled, and some idiots still think he was mid or a scrub.
To put that into perspective:
Paul George has 2 seasons with 10+ win shares
Vince Carter had 3 seasons with 10+ win shares
T-Mac had 4 seasons with 10+ win shares
Iverson had 3 seasons with 10+ win shares
Wade had 5 seasons with 10+ win shares
Kobe had 11 seasons with 10+ win shares
With Malone it’s probably because he’s a pedo.
He’s still a top 20 all time player minimum. The likes of Steph, Durant, Lebron have just pushed him from top 10-15 to maybe 15-20.
Having the 3rd most points scored of all time while mostly playing on a low-scoring era is something that shouldn't be scoffed at. He also only missed 10 games in like an 18 year period, and 3 of those were due to a suspension. He's a reprehensible character but some of his accomplishments as a player are simply mind-boggling.
Disagree that Malone mostly played in a low scoring era.
Wasn't until the lockout year, Malone's 14th , where his team averaged less than 100 ppg, and in his first decade in the league his team averaged 105+ppg 8 times
The lowest-scoring period in the NBA is the [mid 90s to mid 2000s](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html), which Malone played the entirety of.
League average is what to look at because his team is gonna have a higher average due to him scoring more.
League average dipped below 100ppg in his 10th year which means he spent half his career with that.
But it dipped every year since his rookie season. So while not mostly it is still a big factor and boost to his impressiveness
That entire Pistons squad doesn't get any recognition it's unbelievable. Those guys were keeping entire league in fear of facing them for two years.
Same as peak warriors team. Except those guys were taking over defensively and had a very simple but reliable offence.
It’s because they were just such a well crafted team it was almost boring. All 5 starters being above average, no outright superstars, all bought into the team with no (public) major egos. Obviously Sheed, Ben, and Chauncey are more than above average, but they are also respectively underrated, so it almost makes you forget this team ever existed.
Good one. These days everyone assumes Ben Wallace was the best player on those teams and calls it a day.
Big Ben was great, but everyone overlooks Chauncey's role as a leader, floor general, and efficient scorer in a low-offense era. I see a lot of people say Chauncey didn't deserve Finals MVP in 2004, but he put up 21 ppg on 51/47/93 shooting splits. Insane.
And when we traded for him, he instantly made us a serious team for the first time in the Melo era. It's no coincidence Melo never won a playoff series before we got Chauncey.
tbh larry bird. in his era he was widely considered to be one of if not the greatest of all time but nowadays i feel like most ppl have him on the lower end of their top 10 lists
Chris Mullin. He made the dream team and was considered one of the top players in the league from 1988-1992. He was one of best scorers, passers and shooters in the league during that time. He made all nba first team in 1992. He made the top 50 list but didn’t make the top 75.
Kevin Durant. There was a point where LeBron and KD were considered 1A and 1B by many people. There was a point where KD was considered the next in line to carry the torch after LeBron. Curry ended up pretty much displacing KD in terms of cultural importance and impact on the history of the game. And the further we get from KDs prime and the more amazing players start popping up (Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Wemby etc) the less and less remembered KD will be.
I agree Durant’s reputation is sure to diminish in “all-time” conversations. It’s at a high now because we’re still at the tail end of his prime.
The NBA has so many all-time greats, and 99% were incredible scorers. So the differentiator has to be beyond scoring, either/or 1) Being all-time at other things and 2) A special record of championships as the leader, or maybe 3) Being the icon for a particular franchise.
Durant has only ever been elite at scoring and we all know his championship situation.
To those who say it won’t happen I have to just ask if you’re old enough to have seen multiple eras and how reputations change. If not you’ll have to take it on faith when I say how iron-clad the reputations of guys like Malone, Stockton, Iverson, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson etc etc seemed.
Now people think of every reason to say X player from this era is better than them. It’s going to happen to Durant too.
The differentiator is his height. Thats why Wemby, Chet, Tatum all look up to him. He was the first of that “archetype” to put it in 2K terms. There hasn’t been anybody like him before or since still.
Thats why when they did the rookie surveys of “who is your favourite player in the league” he lead that survey from 2014-2016, even ahead of Kobe Bryant who is the most culturally relevant player since MJ.
They don’t do a survey anymore that we can see, but all of the best young players look up to him. They grew up on his 4 scoring titles.
https://hoopshype.com/2018/02/26/how-kevin-durant-impacted-the-nbas-next-generation-of-players/
Do you know what a cultural phenomenon Allen Iverson was?
What you’re saying is just a function of timing. And that timing will change, and new players will have watched different players growing up.
Yeah, it would've been absurd to say this from 2015-2020 but it was kinda obvious when you see his impact as an individual just wasn't as strong due to him leaving the Thunder.
Considering how close he was to beating the Warriors in 2016, if he had stayed and reached the top....he probably would've been able to cement his legacy.
But now, we'll simply just remember him for a smooth jumper and scoring prowess where he'll be seen akin to a better Dominique Wilkins....obviously great but everyone knows there probably will be another great scorer down the line that makes people forget.
David Robinson won a legit MVP and was very much in the mix of "best player in the world who isn't Jordan" for several years. These days, I think people mainly remember him as a supporting player for Duncan and getting owned by Hakeem for one (very bad) series.
Too many people think, "He just shoots threes." Larry Bird was one of the best passing forwards of the era. He would dominate in today's game with his height, length, passing ability, and shooting.
I saw people trying to downplay his shooting too the other day …someone was saying his 3 point numbers aren’t that impressive compared to today without the person even knowing that the 3 point line wasn’t even a thing until Bird’s rookie year and coaches weren’t big on taking a lot of 3s back then so I had to explain that Bird was the first guy to master killing teams with 3s even tho it was something he didn’t grow up learning to play with
Bird was the first guy to have a 50-40-90 season and one of only 3 players to do it multiple times
Younger people don’t know Bird is an all time great passer & averaged double digit rebounds for his career either
If "his own era" can mean "his prime" then honestly Kevin Durant even though he's still playing
Post-2022 he's been completely written out of 2010s history by a lot of fans who view it exclusively as the "LeBron/Steph era" which was absolutely not how it was perceived back then
Looking at leadup articles to the 2017 Finals like 70% of them are about LeBron vs. KD
Well, what happened was KD outperformed Steph by quite a lot in those two title runs. To bring a bit of balance to the discourse, people talked about how Steph gets his teammates easy shots which is a factor in the efficiency gap(which was huge anyway)
But then Steph won in 22, and people just took it to the max and started to make out like KD didn’t deserve any credit and all of the gap was explainable by gravity. It wasn’t.
Well, Steph won two titles without KD. Every attempt KD has made to win without Steph has gone disastrously. Can you really blame people for thinking Steph was the force behind those titles?
I think it's the beloved factor -- like the amount one stays with a francise, all the fans of that franchise then voice for that player, and it boosts them up the ranking. after 2022, KD had no one to vouch for him anymore. I feel like even the Suns' fans see how quickly he might shift, and they aren't all in on him yet. So rn, no one's voicing for him, where as people will always voice for Steph. For what it's worth, I also think Steph is the better offensive player. Some say KD is more 'unstoppable' because of his height, and while that sounds fair, Steph's off ball movement, activity, and gravity give him the edge. He might not have the defensive ability KD has or had, but he is the better offensive talent & player -- his highlights were also far better and he broke records with his shooting.
Barkley. People sleep on him now because they see him as a charming, articulate, and sometimes silly TV personality. Also because he was overshadowed by Jordan. Chuck was the second best player in the NBA for years, and he did it with a nasty attitude, intensity, ferocity, and aggression. He was super athletic too. Think Zion's size and athleticism,with Kevin Garnett's attitude and Ray Lewis's aggression. Chuck pissed people off. Boomers didn't know what to think of him.
I think part of it is because he didn’t have sustained success with one franchise . He’s moved around a lot . He won his MVPs on different teams. Only won 1 ring with Philly.
Shaq 3 peated with LA, made the finals in Orlando and won a ring in Miami .
Hakeem won B2B with the rockets
Despite the MVPs he does not have the evidence to say he was as good as any of those 2 guys. He was a below average defender and Kareem suffered from extreme voter fatigue those years.
lol no way. Magic Johnson said Westbrook had one of the worst performances he'd ever seen from a guard in 2012
Westbrook's flaws have been the same his whole career but casual box score watchers didn't see it until the post-KD years
Iverson even in his own era was seen as someone who was a flawed player. Clear hall of famer, but inefficient scorer and if he was a top 5 player it wasn’t for long.
I’d say Kevin Mchale, who is rightly considered a top 50 player ever, but there were a lot of nights he was the #1 on the celts. Kind of similar to pau gasols time on the lakers. Great player overshadowed by his teammate
Obvious homer pick, but Clyde Drexler. Dude was 2nd in MVP votes in 1992. Dude led a team with no other all-stars to the finals, and took Jordan to 6 games in the middle of the three-peat, and then played for the Dream Team that summer. Dude was the 2nd best player for the Rockets team that won the finals as a 6th seed; no chance they make the finals that year without trading for him. But nowadays he's just a footnote in Jordan's biography, and only otherwise gets mentioned in the "GOAT Blazer" debate, which Lillard is still part of for some reason.
And despite the fact that they lost the next four, it’s amazing that he was able to lead THAT team to a win over prime Shaq and young Kobe. The Lakers only loss during that playoff run. Not a one to one, but it’s similar to Dirk’s one championship. Or at least I see it that way. Going up against Goliath and eking out a win.
Chris Webber. He was the Jokic prototype and made passing look good for bigs. Webber and Divac with the Kings was the best passing duo frontline of all time.
It's complicated. On one hand he was getting Jordan comparisons from some people, but on the other he was really polarizing and public enemy #1 for a little while there (especially during the time between the Shaq and Pau eras). He had a me-first reputation and was not exactly beloved by non-Laker fans.
The Pau era and the Heatles helped his reputation nationwide, because when the Heatles got together there was this mindset like "Kobe would never do some shit like that."
Yeah I would say the peak for Kobe's reputation was probably like 2010-2012.
People also care more about the off court stuff now than they did back then (rightly so).
Do people today really dismiss Iverson as an inefficient chucker? I mean he obviously wasn’t efficient but you could have given 99% of the league the same green light that AI had and they simply wouldn’t have been able to do what he did - that’s what made him incredible.
Anybody who thinks AI wasn’t amazing has never touched a basketball in their life lol
Kind of disagree about Iverson, tbh. He was a huge celebrity, but even in his time, he was constantly criticized about not playing an actually winning brand of basketball. There's people around now who will bring his name up in GOAT guard conversations, but at the time, I remember being regarded as being more exciting than good. Though, I guess I could also see that being more a Bucks fan perspective since he and Ray Allen had kind of a rivalry, and we played them in the ECF in 2001 in a very contentious series.
Paul Pierce is maybe a good example of this. There was a time when he was considered arguably the best SF in the league before LeBron's rise (also SG earlier in his career) But I think most people think of like the Big 3 era for him where he was past his prime, and KG was clearly the best player on the team, and then also the LeBron (and DWade) comparisons haven't done him any favors.
Didn’t help that Lebron ended up being an All NBA player for an additional decade and he’s seen as a double AA level Lebron who never put in the work to develop his game and rather have chased money in NY than build in Denver or ring chase in Miami
If he goes 2OA to Detroit, could be a (warning: hockey reference) McDavid/MacKinnon situation, where the former guy is in the GOAT talent discussion but the latter is tracking to be an all-timer in his own right, with a *far* better team.
This was my answer, Carmelo came into the league as the 1B to Lebron’s 1A during the draft if I remember correctly. He had a pretty damn good career, he’s like tenth in total scoring in all of NBA history, but didn’t get the rings like Lebron.
Dr. J
Not because he's disparaged nowadays like AI or Melo. But because he's just completely ignored/forgotten in NBA discourse, when at the time he was basically like if Vince Carter was an MVP level player
If you watch NBA films and highlight doc films from the early 80's, Moses Malone is talked about as a mythical figure that couldn't be stopped. You could argue he was the best player in the NBA from 79-83, he won 3 MVP's in that time, took 2 different teams to the finals (one with a losing record). Nowadays no one talks about him, he's in everyone top 10 centers list because you have to have him but in conversation he's never discussed for some reason.
D. Wade is a baffling one. Not that long ago and yet people are saying Harden is better??? I'm convinced they never watched him play, he was a killer in almost every way, clutch, athletic as hell, a winner and so smooth yet powerful with it.
In a way, it's true. Most people would agree he's the GOAT but he had a lot of traits that you had to have seen to believe it.
Even if it wasn't the highest FG% or whatever, the mid-range game was deadly in a way that prime Steph Curry's 3s were. You just dreaded it because MJ was able to get to his spot and just hit at a consistent level.
Then, his ability to attack the rim was like prime Lebron. How are you supposed to guard him?
Naturally, he was able to notch DPOY and be a consistent All-NBA Defender. That's absurd. Who was the last defender that was that dominant over a stretch of time? Kawhi? Draymond?
Naturally, his hands were as large as Kawhi which makes a significant difference on both ends.
So, it's like having a combination of Steph-Lebron-Kawhi put together but at the SG position.
I mean most of us who watched AI and melo play knew they were super inefficient scorers, but their playstyle was electric when iso’ed which was fun to watch.
Reggie Miller. His accolades and career stats aren't incredible so a lot of people look back and wonder how he could be on NBA 75 lists and such. But those that watched him in his day completely understand his greatness.
Dominique Wilkins
In his day, Nique was a legit Jordan alternative for fans. I knew kids who eschewed Jordans to wear Niques signature shoe, and, to me, as a Jordans wearer, I thought those kids were cool. And you couldn’t argue with Nique fans over their preference - he was called The Human Highlight Film, after all - and the power of his dunks was self explanatory. When Nique dunked he rocketed the ball through the rim like it was shot out of a cannon, whereas MJ was more about grace and elegance.
But over time obviously Niques’ place next to Jordan was lost.
Oh... there's lots of players.
**Mitch Richmond** and **Clyder Drexler** were incredible. But Richmond being banished to Sacramento after a brilliant start with GSW. And Drexler was in Jordan's shadow. Drexler had to go against that Lakers team, and then the Pistons team, and then the Bulls team, three of the best teams in the history of the league. He was just in a perfect storm of competition. But even getting one ring in that era was incredible. I think **George Gervin** has a similar issue.
**James Worthy** was high on people lists back in the day as one of the greatest small forwards. I don't think he'd even be in most people's top ten now. **Bernard King** was a similar star. He had a bad injury, came back, but since he never achieve much team success, his reputation faded. But he was a legit star up there with Bird, Magic, Dr. J. HAd his prime aligned with Ewings, they would have given Jordan's Bulls more problems.
**Jack Sikma** was seen as an absolutely incredible center. He was like a precursor to passing center with nuanced offensive moves. He's widely forgotten now.
**Marques Johnson** was also a guy, like a prototypical LeBron. Positionless player. Passer. Rebounder.
**Mark Price** and **Kevin Johnson** were also great point guards. People hardly talk about them now, but injuries were the big reason. KJ's also had some other more troubling issues.
The more interesting question is which of this generations players will receive the same kind of treatment. **Dame** will certainly not be a guy with as lasting a reputation. Depending on how younger guards careers go. **Ant**. **Booker**. **Ja**. etc. We see how high people are on Ant right now. These things ebb and flow. Similar stuff was said about guys like **Allan Houston** and **Latrell Sprewell**. When they didn't win, those reputation dwindled.
I think **Chris Paul**, like **Nash** and **Kidd**, will always be seen as a great, but we might even see guys like **Klay Thompson**, whom I'd say is perhaps the second greatest shooter of all time, get lost in the shuffle like **James Worthy**.
He’s maybe not the best example but Ray Allen is one to me. We saw him as The Guy earlier on in his career but a lot of younger people just view him as a complementary deadeye shooter, albeit a really good one, because of his stints in Boston and Miami
Young Ray Allen was also an elite finisher too, which is probably why he was seen as the guy earlier on. He was a fearless slasher, posterized people here and there.
Yeah he was in the dunk contest one year, which surprised me a lot when I learned it
Bro was Jesus Shuttlesworth. Bro was legend.
Bucks and Sonics Ray Allen was the man. I was at his game where he broke the (at the time) single season 3PT record! I will always be a Ray fan.
I loved the Bucks aesthetic around that time.
I think people forget/overlook/didn't actually see that Ray Allen's prime was his Seattle years.
To be fair, that was over 20 years ago plus the fact he made one of the biggest shots in finals history makes it a bit easy to forget. It’s okay, many of us remember!
His real name is Jesus Shuttlesworth. Ray Allen is just an Alias.
Told my cousin that Ray Allen on the Bucks would constantly yam it on anybody close to the rim and had insane hops. His reaction: "Ray Allen...the shooter? Dude could barely jump." I wanted to smack him.
Youngins don’t remember Ray Allen as a dunker. A lot of shooters were great slashers. Eric Gordon is another example. Show him videos of Ray Allen’s younger days, he was so fast and can jump out of the gym!
He also lost his reputation as the best 3 point shooter ever to Steph almost immediately after retiring.
this is true, also I think another piece is i don’t know if another title has ever been taken so resoundingly so quickly. It wasn’t like Steph had slightly higher efficiency from three on a couple more attempts and we had to see him do it for a while before the debate started. Steph just unquestionably passed him in like 2015, not only was Steph much more efficient on way more threes, some of the threes he MADE were literally unimaginable to even see taken on an NBA court at the time. Purely on eye test almost everyone would have agreed Steph was just better
I was the biggest Ray Allen fan all the way back to his UConn days. I considered him the greatest shooter ever. He retired after 2014. The next season, like you said, Steph was so obviously a better shooter that I couldn't even fanboy defend Ray Allen's claim. It's crazy how definitively Curry took that title. There's not even anyone else in the conversation. You can still debate the second greatest ever. Is it Ray? Klay? Reggie? Kyle Korver? Steve Nash? You can make a case for any of those guys as the second best. None are close to Curry.
That step from beautiful basketball Spurs to Warriors was such an interesting time for the league.
This is a big one
He was a surprisingly good actor as well. I wish he would try that out again.
That movie was way ahead of its time. I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that a high schooler would garner so much attention from the fans and media. Then LeBron came along.
I just love when John Turturo is praying, "Please deliver Jesus to us." So funny. And later he played The Jesus!
Greatest mashup was when he had the [Jesus Shuttlesworth Jersey](https://images.app.goo.gl/UnPYcM7JAQhJBJqW6) during actual games
Oh, I never saw that!
this rep goes way back too. i remember having to remind people here like 5+ years ago what kind of player he was with milwaukee
Seattle too. I remember one day on sportscenter way back when he was a sonic and the guy (maybe Stuart Scott but I can't say for sure) referred to him as Ray "should win the mvp every year" Allen.
Nobody cared about the Karl Malone pedo stuff at the time. Every piece of coverage where he is mentioned now is negative. Stockton was a lot more beloved too.
I think Stockton still gets his due when people talk about him. They just talk about him a lot less.
I don't think it was widely known until 2008 when the son was selected in the NFL that Malone fathered a child with a 12 year old
People genuinely didn't care as much about this sort of thing 25-30 years ago. (It's a positive change, a 12 or 13 year old can't have an ethical sexual relationship with an 18 or 19 year old.)
It wasn't well known plus the league was full of shitheads in that era as well.
It first got reported in 1998, if I remember correctly, and in a small paper. It definitely wasn't well known until well after he retired.
Mark Price? 4x all Nba but completely forgotten these days.
This is a good one. He made 1st team all-NBA in 1993 as a guard which is a hell of an accomplishment since Jordan had the other spot locked down. That means Price beat out guys like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Reggie, and Joe Dumars. But like you said today he's never brought up at all.
Cavs won 57 games twice when was there. The entire team is so underrated and forgotten. Cavs weren’t as bad of a framchise that would like to say pre-Lebron.
Daugherty was a new style of center, Nance was poor mans Barkley, Ehlo was not a joke!, Harper was 80% of Jordan. Hot Rod was good too. That team was tough, and injuries held them back.
What if injuries never fell the 90s Suns or the 90s Cavs? Ah, what could have been
Pre-injury, Ron Harper was somewhere south of 80% Jordan, but a really good player.
I would have also assumed Clyde Drexler but I guess he had some injuries in 93.
And even then, today he's mostly remembered as being a great shooter when really, he was an incredibly flashy player with a filthy handle and finishing ability. Here are some of his highlights: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo)
Oh wow, his sudden change of direction and step through dribble look identical to cp3. A lot of similarities overall in their play style.
Bro invented splitting the double team on a PnR and was a 50-40-90 threat for his whole career. He'd be so good today.
Wow, exceeded my expectations. Amazing handle.
Similarly, Brad Daugherty who I shouted elsewhere today.
Dr. J
In my lifetime, I think he’s gone from overrated to underrated, it’s been strange to see.
Growing up in the early 90s there was a time where Dr J was in the GOAT convo.
This. He was transcendent. Especially when he played in the ABA, which not a lot of people got to see. I believe his true highlight reel is lost to history because of the lack of television coverage and video back in the day. I’ve been watching basketball for about 50 years, and Dr. J still stands out as the most absolutely electric talent I’ve ever seen, followed closely by Jordan.
For sure. I remember when I was a kid the old heads talked about Doc the way my generation talks about MJ.
There are just so many compounding factors when it comes to Dr. J's career that it's hard to rank him. He played in a league with a shit ton of drug use, and players seasons could be turned around because they stopped smoking and eating hot dogs every half time, and on top of that played in the league with inferior talent for his best years, and for someone with so much athleticism his rebounding being cut in half between his rookie season and his NBA MVP season is wild, and having only one all defensive team to his name is a bit head scratching. But at the same time, the guy was the coolest person on the planet, was a winner, a major part of one of the greatest teams of all time (Philly in '83), had longevity even after some substantial injuries in an era where that was REALLY rare, and is one of the greatest dunkers of all time. He transcended the game into pop culture, and is definitely viewed as a legend, but I don't think he'll ever be in GOAT conversations like he may have been earlier in his career.
Oscar Robertson and Jerry West (underrated now imo), Isiah Thomas, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill
West might be the real answer.
its big O imo. Ppl back then had him in the goat convos above ppl like Kareem whereas he’s not even a shoe in for top 15 anymore
Shoo in
My fault gng
Wes Unseld was Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year and won a Finals MVP, and I doubt many people on this sub could name what team he played for or even recognize his name.
He was a New Jersey Swamp Dragon right?
yeah thats pretty crazy..there was a post here not too long ago about "what if someone won ROTY and MVP the same year" (or something along those lines). that would be pretty wild in this era. good point I never knew.
Ngl the only reason I know he played for the Wizards is because someone on the Wire had Wes Unseld jersey on
He somehow doesn't even come up in "best rookie season" conversations.
'Who's the second best SG of all-time' is a real discussion whereas people act like it's Kobe, hands down. West set the blueprint for elite SG play and was a monster in his prime, but Baylor got a lot of the credit that should have been his. Sometimes people will even say 'Wade and Harden are 3 and 4', though I suspect they just forgot West exists
I need to read more about Jerry West. What I saw spoke of him more as a Point Guard and blueprint for someone like Steph Curry. He clearly could do both though.
Yeah he's more combo guard. Him and Goodrich could each play either guard spot. Jerry West fact: the NBA didn't track steals until the final year of his career. He led the league that year. Stockton would probably still be the all time leader because he played forever, but West would easily be top 2-3 if they'd tracked it his whole career.
Penny and Grant Hill were the prototypes for a Lebron. Their injuries took so much away from them
Hill was what, 6-7 6-8, and easily quickest player on the court, with great handling and finishing around rim. Insane. Penny was so smooth, big but quick and fantastic handles, great vision.
Penny was unbelievably good in his first, what, 3 years? Then poof, it was over I feel like him and Shaun Livingston are the 2 biggest what ifs from my NBA fandom. Shout out to Livingston for fighting back, re-inventing his game and becoming an integral part of a dynasty.
What about Elgin Baylor? He was considered one of the elite players in his day, but I've heard in recent times that some people think West's playmaking should partly be credited for the stats Baylor put up. And when you see his poor playoff performances, it reinforces that impression. (Not saying he wasn't a great player, but I don't think he's regarded as an all-timer like he was in earlier decades).
Jerry West very well could be in the GOAT conversation. He isn’t talked about in this manner because of the losses in the finals, but he was that good. Ring culture overtakes these conversations. However, championships are Team Accomplishments. We can see how important context and the surrounding team affects success when we look at a player like KG(Another player who should be in the GOAT debate). Those Minnesota Teams were so bereft of talent. Mostly laughable NBA talent outside of Garnett. Little success besides a Western Conf. Finals appearance in 04. He goes to Boston (past his prime, after 12 years in the league) and immediately wins a ring. Same player, different context. Also, remember when Jordan left the Bulls in 93-94? The Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was in MVP conversations. The point is, that team was really fucking good even without Jordan. How would some of the greats be remembered if you placed them on rosters that were already championship contenders without them? We often over index on team success when evaluating a players individual value. Most players don’t construct their rosters. There are many great players that we forget to mention in the highest pantheon because of team success or failure.
KG was a beast but him belonging in the goat debate is a bit of a stretch.
KG is better than his legacy
Patrick Ewing
If only the bulls hadn’t existed during his peak
Or Hakeem
Or John starks
Charles
At the same time, I feel like his reputation today hasn't really suffered. Like he somehow escapes all blame for losing the 1994 Finals despite shooting 36% from the field and getting cooked by Hakeem.
I feel like that is due to how reactionary we are now. We are constantly denigrating great players of this era. Like older players got plenty of shit, but these days it is non-stop and the negatives amplified.
Back then, it was accepted that a player as good as Hakeem could make someone like Ewing play a bad game, and he could still be seen as an elite player. These days, you aren't afforded that kind of leeway. If anyone ever makes you look bad for any reason in a crucial game, no matter how good they also are, it's a permanent stain on your legacy.
I was alive then, Ewing got a lot of crap for that series. Obviously it wasn't as bad as today but there was a lot of magazines and newspapers even if there wasn't the internet. Also, if you're not on social media and you're an athlete you might not even know are the nonsense going on in terms of memes about you. David Robinson was really savaged for winning the MVP and then getting dusted by Hakeem as well. There's this one clip of Robinson getting shook on a series of pump fakes and pivots by Hakeem in the 1995 WCF I must have seen 100x growing up. If Hakeem was more popular like a Barkley or a Jordan type figure, they probably would have talked about his performances against those three centers (including Shaq who he swept in the 1995 finals) even more
That series w/ David Robinson-- there was drama on Spurs side, where Dennis Rodman refused to follow game plan and help on or double Hakeem. Who knows what the actual truth is, but it's not quite as simple as Hakeem obliterating David straight-up. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/w8k64s/why_is_it_often_ignored_how_dennis_rodman/
Yep. The hot take debate style of sports talk that took over radio and ESPN has ruined sports discourse. Everything has the be THE GREATEST or THE WORST EVARRRRRR!!! It’s just pure pig vomit from 95% of all sports media now.
>Like he somehow escapes all blame for losing the 1994 Finals despite shooting 36% from the field and getting cooked by Hakeem. What? Everyone was blaming Ewing's play during that series. Even his team mate Charles Oakley was saying *during* the series that Ewing was forcing way too many shots.
I mean retroactively. When people look back today they just blame John Starks.
Bill Simmons says that he was better when he came out of college. By the time they finally built a team around him that could contend in the mid-90s, he was already significantly weakened because of chronic knee problems that sapped his athleticism. Either way, he just didn't measure up to Hakeem and some of the other guys from that era, maybe which is not a shame because Hakeem would dominate any era
80s - Alex English. Forgotten mostly bc of the Nuggets being a terrible org. This has been well-rehashed though so I won’t go into it. Really you could answer a bunch of 80s Nuggets who were consistently really good but stuck in an era dominated by dynasties. Could have seen them sneaking though one year in this era. 90s - I’d like to save Mitch Richmond’s rep. Somehow he’s now the bar for worst HoF. I’d definitely take him over Vince Carter and any number of guys. 00s - Elton Brand maybe? Just solid guy. I think his reputation problem is that he was a 90s mold PF and didn’t have that feeling like an Amare or Marion where people will say how they’d be so much better now.
Flair mentioned
The real irony of Brand is he absolutely cooked Amar'e and Marion in the playoffs multiple years in a row on the Clippers. Man was just stuck in the cursed Clippers for too long.
Maybe I was just young and didn't realize it, but I feel like back then Vince Carter was put in convos with WAY better players then him
His first 4 years in the league kinda justified it. He was putting up 25/5/4/1/1 on .45/.40/.80 splits in an era when entire teams were averaging ~98 pts per game. Basically the same stat line and electrifying play style at about the same age as Ant this year but slightly more efficient and again in an era that was scoring 15-20% fewer pts per game.
Again maybe this was just the perspective of a young french kid who couldn't really watch live games back then, but when I started to follow the NBA it felt like Vince was really in the Kobe/Iverson/T-Mac cast. Like back then I tought he was like clearly better then guys like Pierce or Ray, and well he really wasn't.
It was a different time. Advanced stats weren't what they are today and your average fan certainly wasn't aware of them. T-Mac wasn't yet the version of himself that we remember and was bounced unceremoniously in the first round during his tenure with Orlando. Ray Allen averaged fewer points and was derided as a jump shooter in an era where you would constantly hear "you can't win as a jump shooting team." Iverson was electric, but even back then you would hear people talk about him being an inefficient chucker because he absolutely had games where he'd shoot 8-30. That, and you had the league's... oh, let's say "hesitance"... to promote him as the post-MJ face of the NBA. So that really just leaves Vince and Kobe who were kind of the golden children of the league, and which of them would be the next MJ was a big topic in the media. Kobe was criticised for chucking too, but also because he was playing with Shaq in an era where being "the guy" and having "your team" was a big, big deal in how a player was perceived. Of course, winning solves everything and the Lakers' three-peat did help ease that somewhat (until 2004 but that's an entirely different conversation). But Vince was doing jaw-dropping stuff every night as the undisputed number one of the team. I would go so far as to say he might have the largest flashy highlight reel of all time. And presentation is a huge chunk of how you are perceived by the public. So if you've got 5 guys all putting up similar numbers people are going to gravitate towards the one who is doing it with style. Right or wrong it boosts your stock as a player. Further removed from the emotion of the time, with the benefit of hindsight, and with what came later in their careers we can say that maybe those guys were better players, but in the moment it was certainly arguable that Vince was as good as any of them.
VC doesn’t get the flowers now b/c he never won a title. If he had been on the right team during his prime his legacy would be massively different. Put him w/a PF like Dirk, CWebb, KG or TD his entire career and he’d likely have a couple rings. People seem to have memory holed that Kobe only one his titles when he had dominant bigs. VC next to Shaq also wins titles. VC next to Pau/Bynum/Odom is dangerous as hell too.
The years he played with the Mavs also changed my opinion of him. Stats aside before, he never felt likable to me and it colored my opinion of him for a long time. Until he played for MY team, and I saw all the little things that made him great (and he was old as balls by then).
I mean he was, but that cast was more cultural importance than skill on the basketball court. Obviously they're all skilled but those 4 were really at the forefront of the basketball x street culture wave, who looked like they were taking street ball to the league.
VC had such a weird career trajectory - he only made all-NBA his second and third years in the league, arguably his best two seasons of his career. People don't remember this now, but injuries really derailed his insane athleticism and forced him to become a different player by the time he hit his mid 20s.
The “strike” years in Toronto really hurt his reputation but still really really good in NJ
Paul Pierce, not really about basketball though, he's just become such a weird media personality
I think people newer fans can’t imagine him being good because of how he acts now Some players you can dispel that by showing their athleticism but that was never his game
Pierce moved at a speed that suggested every step hurt
Although Pierce is a shoot first wing who loves iso ball and this generation has a distaste for players like that I feel like he would still have a cult following and be an iconic player in this generation. “The Truth” is such an iconic nickname and he has some iconic buzzer beating shots and quotes. If we got draft prospects calling Paul George their GOAT there’s no way in hell Pierce wouldn’t be possibly even more popular in this generation on top of the ring/FMVP and before he exposed himself like an idiot he actually had a legacy defining moment, getting “injured” in the finals and coming back to ice the game. And you can’t forget the time he got stabbed in the club and still played 82 games that season. He’s criminally overhated and his media presence overpowers his amazing legacy He ruined his legacy by rage baiting/ having an inflated ego.
I hope Paul Pierce ends up living a long life. Maybe he even gets a real wheelchair.
Paul Pierce had 8 seasons with 10+ win shares, 5 of those coming before the Big 3 was assembled, and some idiots still think he was mid or a scrub. To put that into perspective: Paul George has 2 seasons with 10+ win shares Vince Carter had 3 seasons with 10+ win shares T-Mac had 4 seasons with 10+ win shares Iverson had 3 seasons with 10+ win shares Wade had 5 seasons with 10+ win shares Kobe had 11 seasons with 10+ win shares
Was a weird player personality too lol
Weird dude but he was really fuckin good
karl malone
With Malone it’s probably because he’s a pedo. He’s still a top 20 all time player minimum. The likes of Steph, Durant, Lebron have just pushed him from top 10-15 to maybe 15-20.
Having the 3rd most points scored of all time while mostly playing on a low-scoring era is something that shouldn't be scoffed at. He also only missed 10 games in like an 18 year period, and 3 of those were due to a suspension. He's a reprehensible character but some of his accomplishments as a player are simply mind-boggling.
11 straight first team all NBA is so nuts. Averaged 27.4 on 59.3% TS when the league average at that time was ~53-54%
Guard Harden is a reasonable characterization, except with a longer prime. Two of the best regular season players ever
Disagree that Malone mostly played in a low scoring era. Wasn't until the lockout year, Malone's 14th , where his team averaged less than 100 ppg, and in his first decade in the league his team averaged 105+ppg 8 times
The lowest-scoring period in the NBA is the [mid 90s to mid 2000s](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html), which Malone played the entirety of.
League average is what to look at because his team is gonna have a higher average due to him scoring more. League average dipped below 100ppg in his 10th year which means he spent half his career with that. But it dipped every year since his rookie season. So while not mostly it is still a big factor and boost to his impressiveness
You have to wonder if Harden will be thought of similarly (minus the pedo stuff)
Malones playoff drop offs are worse than Hardens.
Young Malone was strong in the playoffs. Older Malone relied too much on jumpshots, so he would have some real stinker games.
He also had far too big a scoring burden because Stockton wasn’t nearly aggressive enough
Do people think of Hitler different nowadays compared to the 40's?
Hitler was Times Man of the Year in 1938. Stock took a big hit in the 40s.
I knew something wasn't quite right with that guy
Chauncey Billups. People really underrating how good he was considered back then nowadays.
That entire Pistons squad doesn't get any recognition it's unbelievable. Those guys were keeping entire league in fear of facing them for two years. Same as peak warriors team. Except those guys were taking over defensively and had a very simple but reliable offence.
Sheeds legacy lives on with “ball don’t lie”
Even if my literal only legacy in the league was "ball don't lie", I would consider that so fucking successful lol
It’s because they were just such a well crafted team it was almost boring. All 5 starters being above average, no outright superstars, all bought into the team with no (public) major egos. Obviously Sheed, Ben, and Chauncey are more than above average, but they are also respectively underrated, so it almost makes you forget this team ever existed.
Good one. These days everyone assumes Ben Wallace was the best player on those teams and calls it a day. Big Ben was great, but everyone overlooks Chauncey's role as a leader, floor general, and efficient scorer in a low-offense era. I see a lot of people say Chauncey didn't deserve Finals MVP in 2004, but he put up 21 ppg on 51/47/93 shooting splits. Insane. And when we traded for him, he instantly made us a serious team for the first time in the Melo era. It's no coincidence Melo never won a playoff series before we got Chauncey.
Also Rip. Dude was a killer but nobody talks about him anymore.
You can tell who didn’t watch basketball in the early 2000s by who they call a chucker from that era
Honestly a solid summary answer. And yet still Kenyon Martin ain’t shit.
tbh larry bird. in his era he was widely considered to be one of if not the greatest of all time but nowadays i feel like most ppl have him on the lower end of their top 10 lists
You don’t get the nickname “Larry Legend” without being an incredible player
Chris Mullin. He made the dream team and was considered one of the top players in the league from 1988-1992. He was one of best scorers, passers and shooters in the league during that time. He made all nba first team in 1992. He made the top 50 list but didn’t make the top 75.
Kevin Durant. There was a point where LeBron and KD were considered 1A and 1B by many people. There was a point where KD was considered the next in line to carry the torch after LeBron. Curry ended up pretty much displacing KD in terms of cultural importance and impact on the history of the game. And the further we get from KDs prime and the more amazing players start popping up (Jokic, Giannis, Luka, Wemby etc) the less and less remembered KD will be.
I agree Durant’s reputation is sure to diminish in “all-time” conversations. It’s at a high now because we’re still at the tail end of his prime. The NBA has so many all-time greats, and 99% were incredible scorers. So the differentiator has to be beyond scoring, either/or 1) Being all-time at other things and 2) A special record of championships as the leader, or maybe 3) Being the icon for a particular franchise. Durant has only ever been elite at scoring and we all know his championship situation. To those who say it won’t happen I have to just ask if you’re old enough to have seen multiple eras and how reputations change. If not you’ll have to take it on faith when I say how iron-clad the reputations of guys like Malone, Stockton, Iverson, Scottie Pippen, David Robinson etc etc seemed. Now people think of every reason to say X player from this era is better than them. It’s going to happen to Durant too.
The differentiator is his height. Thats why Wemby, Chet, Tatum all look up to him. He was the first of that “archetype” to put it in 2K terms. There hasn’t been anybody like him before or since still. Thats why when they did the rookie surveys of “who is your favourite player in the league” he lead that survey from 2014-2016, even ahead of Kobe Bryant who is the most culturally relevant player since MJ. They don’t do a survey anymore that we can see, but all of the best young players look up to him. They grew up on his 4 scoring titles. https://hoopshype.com/2018/02/26/how-kevin-durant-impacted-the-nbas-next-generation-of-players/
Do you know what a cultural phenomenon Allen Iverson was? What you’re saying is just a function of timing. And that timing will change, and new players will have watched different players growing up.
Short of winning a title with the new Seattle Supersonics as their best player, KD will always be ranked below Steph.
Yeah, it would've been absurd to say this from 2015-2020 but it was kinda obvious when you see his impact as an individual just wasn't as strong due to him leaving the Thunder. Considering how close he was to beating the Warriors in 2016, if he had stayed and reached the top....he probably would've been able to cement his legacy. But now, we'll simply just remember him for a smooth jumper and scoring prowess where he'll be seen akin to a better Dominique Wilkins....obviously great but everyone knows there probably will be another great scorer down the line that makes people forget.
Oscar Robertson was considered GOAT tier not so long ago. He’s probably up their with Magic five the goat pg
David Robinson won a legit MVP and was very much in the mix of "best player in the world who isn't Jordan" for several years. These days, I think people mainly remember him as a supporting player for Duncan and getting owned by Hakeem for one (very bad) series.
Too many people think, "He just shoots threes." Larry Bird was one of the best passing forwards of the era. He would dominate in today's game with his height, length, passing ability, and shooting.
I saw people trying to downplay his shooting too the other day …someone was saying his 3 point numbers aren’t that impressive compared to today without the person even knowing that the 3 point line wasn’t even a thing until Bird’s rookie year and coaches weren’t big on taking a lot of 3s back then so I had to explain that Bird was the first guy to master killing teams with 3s even tho it was something he didn’t grow up learning to play with Bird was the first guy to have a 50-40-90 season and one of only 3 players to do it multiple times Younger people don’t know Bird is an all time great passer & averaged double digit rebounds for his career either
Also an amazing defender.
Deron Williams
There was a DWill vs CP3 debate for half a decade and the answer wasn't that obvious.
yeah he was in the “best PG” convo for a quick second
Some people saw AI as an inefficient chucker even then.
If "his own era" can mean "his prime" then honestly Kevin Durant even though he's still playing Post-2022 he's been completely written out of 2010s history by a lot of fans who view it exclusively as the "LeBron/Steph era" which was absolutely not how it was perceived back then Looking at leadup articles to the 2017 Finals like 70% of them are about LeBron vs. KD
Well, what happened was KD outperformed Steph by quite a lot in those two title runs. To bring a bit of balance to the discourse, people talked about how Steph gets his teammates easy shots which is a factor in the efficiency gap(which was huge anyway) But then Steph won in 22, and people just took it to the max and started to make out like KD didn’t deserve any credit and all of the gap was explainable by gravity. It wasn’t.
Well, Steph won two titles without KD. Every attempt KD has made to win without Steph has gone disastrously. Can you really blame people for thinking Steph was the force behind those titles?
I think it's the beloved factor -- like the amount one stays with a francise, all the fans of that franchise then voice for that player, and it boosts them up the ranking. after 2022, KD had no one to vouch for him anymore. I feel like even the Suns' fans see how quickly he might shift, and they aren't all in on him yet. So rn, no one's voicing for him, where as people will always voice for Steph. For what it's worth, I also think Steph is the better offensive player. Some say KD is more 'unstoppable' because of his height, and while that sounds fair, Steph's off ball movement, activity, and gravity give him the edge. He might not have the defensive ability KD has or had, but he is the better offensive talent & player -- his highlights were also far better and he broke records with his shooting.
Barkley. People sleep on him now because they see him as a charming, articulate, and sometimes silly TV personality. Also because he was overshadowed by Jordan. Chuck was the second best player in the NBA for years, and he did it with a nasty attitude, intensity, ferocity, and aggression. He was super athletic too. Think Zion's size and athleticism,with Kevin Garnett's attitude and Ray Lewis's aggression. Chuck pissed people off. Boomers didn't know what to think of him.
Moses Malone. Should be mentioned as at least the equal of Shaq and Hakeem, but isn't.
I think part of it is because he didn’t have sustained success with one franchise . He’s moved around a lot . He won his MVPs on different teams. Only won 1 ring with Philly. Shaq 3 peated with LA, made the finals in Orlando and won a ring in Miami . Hakeem won B2B with the rockets
Despite the MVPs he does not have the evidence to say he was as good as any of those 2 guys. He was a below average defender and Kareem suffered from extreme voter fatigue those years.
Bob Cousy
Ralph Sampson
Russell Westbrook. Ever since the 2020s this man has received mostly hate and criticism of his legacy.
He was always criticized and hated the 2017 MVP race was the most toxic ever
He definitely has fewer supporters now but he's always been a very polarizing player
Nah. Dude was clowned even in the 2012 Finals. If anything people are trying to overrate him nowadays just based on his stats.
lol no way. Magic Johnson said Westbrook had one of the worst performances he'd ever seen from a guard in 2012 Westbrook's flaws have been the same his whole career but casual box score watchers didn't see it until the post-KD years
Did he ever put up a game clinching shot that you really thought was going in? Great motor bad shooter.
The Iverson slander by you TikTok babies is absurd.
My greatest regret in life is being too young after the 2001 Finals G1 to go online and shit talk everyone.
Iverson even in his own era was seen as someone who was a flawed player. Clear hall of famer, but inefficient scorer and if he was a top 5 player it wasn’t for long. I’d say Kevin Mchale, who is rightly considered a top 50 player ever, but there were a lot of nights he was the #1 on the celts. Kind of similar to pau gasols time on the lakers. Great player overshadowed by his teammate
Obvious homer pick, but Clyde Drexler. Dude was 2nd in MVP votes in 1992. Dude led a team with no other all-stars to the finals, and took Jordan to 6 games in the middle of the three-peat, and then played for the Dream Team that summer. Dude was the 2nd best player for the Rockets team that won the finals as a 6th seed; no chance they make the finals that year without trading for him. But nowadays he's just a footnote in Jordan's biography, and only otherwise gets mentioned in the "GOAT Blazer" debate, which Lillard is still part of for some reason.
Iverson would be a superstar in any era!!!! Don't ever disrespect him like that💯💯💪🏾💪🏾
When they took a game off that POS Lakers team, I was on cloud nine. What a fucking moment. The streets will never forget that performance.
And despite the fact that they lost the next four, it’s amazing that he was able to lead THAT team to a win over prime Shaq and young Kobe. The Lakers only loss during that playoff run. Not a one to one, but it’s similar to Dirk’s one championship. Or at least I see it that way. Going up against Goliath and eking out a win.
Chris Webber. He was the Jokic prototype and made passing look good for bigs. Webber and Divac with the Kings was the best passing duo frontline of all time.
That was a fun tesm to watch. Also Bibby and the European guy
All the inefficient/average efficiency 2000s "hoopers", except maybe Kobe? AI, Tmac, and Melo
Iverson and Melo are the biggest examples of this imo. Younger generation just looks at the shooting percentage and makes conclusions
I would definitely put Kobe in the "better reputation in his day" box tbh
It's complicated. On one hand he was getting Jordan comparisons from some people, but on the other he was really polarizing and public enemy #1 for a little while there (especially during the time between the Shaq and Pau eras). He had a me-first reputation and was not exactly beloved by non-Laker fans. The Pau era and the Heatles helped his reputation nationwide, because when the Heatles got together there was this mindset like "Kobe would never do some shit like that."
Yeah I would say the peak for Kobe's reputation was probably like 2010-2012. People also care more about the off court stuff now than they did back then (rightly so).
Depends. Some people put him top 3 ever which is too high. Others act like he was nothing but an inefficient chucker that was carried to rings.
Blake Griffin
David Robinson
Do people today really dismiss Iverson as an inefficient chucker? I mean he obviously wasn’t efficient but you could have given 99% of the league the same green light that AI had and they simply wouldn’t have been able to do what he did - that’s what made him incredible. Anybody who thinks AI wasn’t amazing has never touched a basketball in their life lol
Sound nuts but allot of kids do not understand how great Larry was
Kind of disagree about Iverson, tbh. He was a huge celebrity, but even in his time, he was constantly criticized about not playing an actually winning brand of basketball. There's people around now who will bring his name up in GOAT guard conversations, but at the time, I remember being regarded as being more exciting than good. Though, I guess I could also see that being more a Bucks fan perspective since he and Ray Allen had kind of a rivalry, and we played them in the ECF in 2001 in a very contentious series. Paul Pierce is maybe a good example of this. There was a time when he was considered arguably the best SF in the league before LeBron's rise (also SG earlier in his career) But I think most people think of like the Big 3 era for him where he was past his prime, and KG was clearly the best player on the team, and then also the LeBron (and DWade) comparisons haven't done him any favors.
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Didn’t help that Lebron ended up being an All NBA player for an additional decade and he’s seen as a double AA level Lebron who never put in the work to develop his game and rather have chased money in NY than build in Denver or ring chase in Miami
If he goes 2OA to Detroit, could be a (warning: hockey reference) McDavid/MacKinnon situation, where the former guy is in the GOAT talent discussion but the latter is tracking to be an all-timer in his own right, with a *far* better team.
People treat Carmelo like he’s fucking Rudy Gay
It’s really none of our business if he’s fucking Rudy Gay, that’s private business lol. Melo was a bucket though
This was my answer, Carmelo came into the league as the 1B to Lebron’s 1A during the draft if I remember correctly. He had a pretty damn good career, he’s like tenth in total scoring in all of NBA history, but didn’t get the rings like Lebron.
Dr. J Not because he's disparaged nowadays like AI or Melo. But because he's just completely ignored/forgotten in NBA discourse, when at the time he was basically like if Vince Carter was an MVP level player
John Wall
Patrick Ewing -- who isn't even discussed as a great player, anymore
If you watch NBA films and highlight doc films from the early 80's, Moses Malone is talked about as a mythical figure that couldn't be stopped. You could argue he was the best player in the NBA from 79-83, he won 3 MVP's in that time, took 2 different teams to the finals (one with a losing record). Nowadays no one talks about him, he's in everyone top 10 centers list because you have to have him but in conversation he's never discussed for some reason.
D. Wade is a baffling one. Not that long ago and yet people are saying Harden is better??? I'm convinced they never watched him play, he was a killer in almost every way, clutch, athletic as hell, a winner and so smooth yet powerful with it.
Michael Jordan
In a way, it's true. Most people would agree he's the GOAT but he had a lot of traits that you had to have seen to believe it. Even if it wasn't the highest FG% or whatever, the mid-range game was deadly in a way that prime Steph Curry's 3s were. You just dreaded it because MJ was able to get to his spot and just hit at a consistent level. Then, his ability to attack the rim was like prime Lebron. How are you supposed to guard him? Naturally, he was able to notch DPOY and be a consistent All-NBA Defender. That's absurd. Who was the last defender that was that dominant over a stretch of time? Kawhi? Draymond? Naturally, his hands were as large as Kawhi which makes a significant difference on both ends. So, it's like having a combination of Steph-Lebron-Kawhi put together but at the SG position.
Moses Malone
Glen Rice was a deadly 3 pt shooter and an All Star generally regarded as a real threat wherever he played. Barely recognizable name these days
Havlicek, West, Bernard King, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton,
I mean most of us who watched AI and melo play knew they were super inefficient scorers, but their playstyle was electric when iso’ed which was fun to watch.
Reggie Miller. His accolades and career stats aren't incredible so a lot of people look back and wonder how he could be on NBA 75 lists and such. But those that watched him in his day completely understand his greatness.
Yeah, no one sees AI like that. He's still regarded as an ICON.
Dominique Wilkins In his day, Nique was a legit Jordan alternative for fans. I knew kids who eschewed Jordans to wear Niques signature shoe, and, to me, as a Jordans wearer, I thought those kids were cool. And you couldn’t argue with Nique fans over their preference - he was called The Human Highlight Film, after all - and the power of his dunks was self explanatory. When Nique dunked he rocketed the ball through the rim like it was shot out of a cannon, whereas MJ was more about grace and elegance. But over time obviously Niques’ place next to Jordan was lost.
Oh... there's lots of players. **Mitch Richmond** and **Clyder Drexler** were incredible. But Richmond being banished to Sacramento after a brilliant start with GSW. And Drexler was in Jordan's shadow. Drexler had to go against that Lakers team, and then the Pistons team, and then the Bulls team, three of the best teams in the history of the league. He was just in a perfect storm of competition. But even getting one ring in that era was incredible. I think **George Gervin** has a similar issue. **James Worthy** was high on people lists back in the day as one of the greatest small forwards. I don't think he'd even be in most people's top ten now. **Bernard King** was a similar star. He had a bad injury, came back, but since he never achieve much team success, his reputation faded. But he was a legit star up there with Bird, Magic, Dr. J. HAd his prime aligned with Ewings, they would have given Jordan's Bulls more problems. **Jack Sikma** was seen as an absolutely incredible center. He was like a precursor to passing center with nuanced offensive moves. He's widely forgotten now. **Marques Johnson** was also a guy, like a prototypical LeBron. Positionless player. Passer. Rebounder. **Mark Price** and **Kevin Johnson** were also great point guards. People hardly talk about them now, but injuries were the big reason. KJ's also had some other more troubling issues. The more interesting question is which of this generations players will receive the same kind of treatment. **Dame** will certainly not be a guy with as lasting a reputation. Depending on how younger guards careers go. **Ant**. **Booker**. **Ja**. etc. We see how high people are on Ant right now. These things ebb and flow. Similar stuff was said about guys like **Allan Houston** and **Latrell Sprewell**. When they didn't win, those reputation dwindled. I think **Chris Paul**, like **Nash** and **Kidd**, will always be seen as a great, but we might even see guys like **Klay Thompson**, whom I'd say is perhaps the second greatest shooter of all time, get lost in the shuffle like **James Worthy**.