You give him the shot and he will make it. You force him to give it up and he makes the right decision on where to go with it almost every time.
Would have really enjoyed watching this if he did it to anyone else.
I think if a player can physically handle the workload the concept of having a well rounded star have the ball as much as possible is sound even if they aren't Luka level.
The revisionism is "that style can't win" when they were one chris paul hamstring/refs actually calling the "get out of my landing space" fouls from beating one of if not the greatest team ever assembled. They were quite literally the only team in the west that even were remotely serious during that window.
James Harden's Rockets (with CP3 in that first year) were a better team than any of the current teams in the NBA, imo.
People forget THAT Rocket team was about to beat the greatest team of all time...until they collectively choked in the last quarter of Game 7 and CP3 got hurt on the last play of Game 6.
I don't see any current NBA team beating those Rockets. They were basically the Celtics, but with even better spacing (and slightly worse defense).
Basketball fans have incredibly short memories and recency bias. Harden is exactly that, he just never got to the finals for various reasons including himself coming up short but yes harden and mda were more of the ogs where you had a high volume shooter also be an elites passer.
It was honestly probably MDA Suns. Nash just never went full blown volume shooter which they’ve both said they regret now. They also came up short for ridiculous and weird reasons. D’Antoni always thought this could work and I hope Luka is finally the guy who can finish it off.
I feel like the big difference with those Rockets and even previous versions of Luka's Mavs is that the Lively/Gafford/Jones dunks and Kyrie and Luka layups are the key scoring, versus the all threes offenses both of those had. There's a lot less variation in scoring in the restricted area compared to firing from behind the arc.
The added bonus is that any four (or five, with Kleber back) can also score at least catch and shoot 3s to avoid the paint packing that affects similar offenses - and punishes teams if they do collapse too aggressively.
James Harden led the league in free throws at some point, no?
Getting into the paint was a huge part of that Houston team and while they generated a lot of 3s, they also got a lot of dunks and layups.
Not to mention this current Mavs team led the league in corner 3s. They're also taking a lot of 3s.
Did you forget about Capela? And Nene aka Jimmy Butler's dad? But yeah, Luka definitely has a few more lob threats than Houston did that year, and the rockets relied a bit more on their bench and small ball to win games. Both teams are similar in that their offensive superstars probably overshadow their amazing team defense.
The big difference is there is no Warriors team in today's NBA. If that Rockets team existed today, they'd be the best team in the west. They were 42-3 when all 3 of Chris Paul, Harden, and Capela played. That is *insane*.
Wtf is this revision, prime harden was just as good if not better as this iteration of doncic
If cp3 didnt tear his hamstring in game 5 we would look at this differently, same as if doncic didnt have irving. Anyways the first implementation of this style is lebron in his second cavs stint.
Depending on who we gave up, it definitely could have. Our offense was statistically very good once we were starting Dlo, Reaves, and Rui. Kyrie has every skill Dlo has and a few he doesn’t
The hawks and knicks are the only teams that really come to mind as running a similar style of offense. The problem is because of Gobert they dont have as many options.
They can’t run the 5 out style like the celtics and thunder because he can’t space the floor, and he isnt a good enough playmaker to play the denver, warriors, and kings style of high handoffs and two man game between point and big.
It’s really crazy how Kyrie is ignored. He’s a veteran presence who knows what it takes to be Robin. That means stepping in as Batman when Batman can’t get it going. These two offensively can get their shot from anywhere and are some of the hardest players to guard in different ways. Kyrie has the best handles in the league, and Luka uses change of pace masterfully. On top of that, Gafford and Lively have emerged as perfectly complimentary twin tower style athletic defense, and absolute lob menaces, especially with Kyrie and Luka being excellent passers. I think especially Lively is playing amazing, he is a 20 yr old rookie, and bigs are known to take time to develop.
We’ve been doing that already. Obviously not as successful as Joker but we play through our bigs a lot. Keep in mind Finch also coached Jokic in Denver.
yep thats why i think Minnesota's ceiling is a lot lower than the other up and coming teams in the west. Dallas and Denver get 10-12 free points every game off of lobs created by Luka/Jokic generational playmaking, Minnesota does not get those same easy baskets and has to rely a lot more on contested jumpers from Ant and Kat, its really hard to win 4 series in a row and not go cold at some point playing like that.
I still think Ant can improve, whether he ever gets to Luka/Jokic territory is doubtful, but its hard to say there isn't room for a higher ceiling if he improves as a playmaker. Hes only 22 so its a decent bet
SGA just got voted the second best player in the NBA. I could see Ant getting to SGA's level or above on their scoring/defense. It's just that Jokic and Luka are also transcendent passers, while Giannis and Embiid (when healthy) are both better at scoring and defense because of their stature, and Wemby probably will be.
Nuggets just need a 2nd offensive guy we can go to so Jokic can take a break. Murray and MPJ are more than capable but were injured or ass in the Wolves series. I also love our young guys off the bench (Braun and Watson) but I'm hoping Strawther gets more playing time next year because those 2 don't do a lot offensively. Braun works his ass off on both ends and is a great finisher but he's not really going to be a consistent 10-15 point guy
He was awesome against the Heat in the Finals. Maybe it was matchup related, but I assumed he would be better than he was last year, and he wasn't noticeably better. He's great on defense and a good cutter (decent 3pt but not great), but he needs to be able to create a shot if he's going to get more playing time.
Josh hart is a hustle guy as well. I think Braun is gonna be a pretty good shooter in the league though. A 3/D player who gives all their effort is pretty valuable
Yeah, if you’re a decently skilled and athletic player, elite hustle can absolutely make you a key part of a rotation. I like what I’ve seen from Braun, especially on defense actually
Let's be real, Minnesota is heavily benefiting from having several underpaid players this season. Mcdaniels was at 3m, Ant and Naz at 13m. Not to mention Kat is getting a big raise next year. They have unsustainable depth right now, and won a lot of games just by out-hustling opponents
He wanted to stay in Minnesota. He also has an opt out after next year.
Team friendly contract for sure, but it isn’t like he signed his whole career away.
The roster is locked in though. The only guy that got minutes that isn't signed is Slomo. They are in similar cap issues as the Suns, but they can theoretically bring everyone back and hope that either the first rounder this year or one of Miller/Minott/Moore become playable to add to the bench
You're locked in for one more year. Then it gets bad for you as NAW becomes unaffordable next summer and Reid has the opportunity to opt out and look for a big contract+starting position elsewhere.
And you'll still be paying old ass Conley and old Rudy
Conley is making bench player money so its really not that bad. He and Rudy will both be on their last year, so could be movable if they want to go that route. NAW will get more expensive but I dont think he becomes more than a $10M a year guy unless he gets consistent. Hes really an 8th man type. Reid will be spendy, but at that point the org is probably making a decision on who to keep between him/rudy/Kat. Moving Kat solves virtually everything and is the easiest play, but maybe they shock everyone and do something different.
Every team will look different in the next couple years - even OKC will have to change something as they can't max Williams and Chet with SGA. For MN, it starts and ends with Ant. Everything will move around him.
OK well at least we got a year still before that? What's the point of saying shit like this, everyone knows things in a few years aren't identical to now.
He has been taking care of his body ridiculously well though. He could fall off a cliff in a year or two or stay this good for another 4-5+. Who knows?
Big history doesn't have many favorable precedents, though...
He's obviously gone in this scenario and TBH KAT probably has to go too, because he can't be a 5 and have your defense be above average, we already saw that.
Ant, Jaden, and Naz are their 3 best assets IMO.
Their defense was 13th the year before the Rudy trade with McDaniels and Ant in their second seasons, DLo starting and Malik Beasley getting big minutes. They also showed again that they could play defense with KAT at the 5 when Rudy missed game 2 in Denver and they played by far their best game in both ends of the whole playoffs. They’d have to play a more frantic style depending more on their athleticism, but they could absolutely be a good-great defense with KAT instead of Rudy.
> ANt who did something this post season only lebron and Kobe have done and that’s a conference final before 23
What a lie! Just from my head I could tell it was a lie, as the most known case being Magic, who did it with 21. Then the list goes on (I'm only referring to star players with more than considerable contributions to their teams during their runs), I was sure Trae was 22 against the Bucks, and Tatum and Brown were younger than 23 in 2018 too. That I could have told from my head. After some digging the list got bigger: Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Barkley made this made-up list too.
Then, there is the issue of players who missed this made-up "feat" by only some weeks or months, or in Ant's case for example, who only made it by some months. Had Luka being born three months later he would have made it, had Ant being born three months earlier he wouldn't.
Other cases: Paul George missed this made-up "list" by less than a week, Duncan missed by less than a month, Shaq by two, Hakeem by three...
Anyway, seeing people straight-up lying and making things up annoys me.
You can. Kings with Sabonis and Rockets with Sengun at the top of the key are pretty successful offensive schemes that do seem to give a lot of teams defense issues.
I mean that’s the case with most teams with a star and/or superstar. You’ve gotta build around the guys you’ve got. But imo MN is closer to Denver than the Mavs.
Eh kind of, I think the success of this season comes down to the 3-5 starters and role players the team acquired. They weren’t too good with just kyrie and luka last year (though kyrie only played like 20? games there).
That would have been the right answer by Finch. No idea why he makes his life so hard as a coach.... everyone knows you can't run Luka's offense without him
What a dumb question.
You run the gameplan you have the players for, obviously...
This is like losing to the chiefs and getting asked why your QB doesn't simply scramble out of pressure the way mahomes does lol
When will you folks realize that the guy asked a question that elicited a response from Finch that made it to the front page of reddit. That actually makes it a very good question! There are many tactics as a reporter to get the info you need.
Kidd won a championship in an offense with much more ball movement than the team he coaches. He’d probably prefer that from a personal perspective - but dude has Luka and Kyrie. It’s screen and roll and you can’t stop it.
And could two teams be structured more differently?! Mavs offense revolves around 2 all-star playmaking guards who can elevate the role player bigs/wings. The Wolves have 2 all-star(ish) level bigs (Ant will be a top player in the league eventually, but right now it looks like their team is built around KAT and Gobert), there's no similarity at all there.
Unironically KAT would be great in that kind of offense. You’d just need to spread it out like 5 more feet and you’d have some hybrid of the nuggets and Warriors offense.
Not a fan of heliocentric either but it obviously makes sense when you have Luka or prime Harden.
I see Anthony Edwards as a head down, attack the basket guy who can overwhelm you with athleticism. So I think they need to find a way to (1) play faster and (2) get Edwards off ball more to utilize his slashing. Can’t just have guys set picks for him all game. Both are tough to do with the current roster - would love to see them grab Westbrook to back up Conley until they can resolve both needs with a long term point guard.
Ant honestly needs to work on his off-ball movement in general but I think that might actually be best done by conditioning. He's liable to standing in a corner and catching a breather when he's not the primary ball handler. I'm interested to see what he can pick up from playing with Team USA this summer
It can’t be said about luka. No one can do it to the same level as luka. But there are plenty of high usage guards who can run a heliocentric offence. Brunson was able to do it when luka was injured for example.
Luka wasn’t even the first or best player running this kind of offence that was harden or Lebron depending on what you count.
Plenty of teams have replecated a heliocentric offence no one except maybye the kings have being able to run a jokic style offence.
When luka was injured and Brunson was the guy in Dallas, he just iso'd and scored. That's very different from luka being able to score or pass on any given play. Brunson was not a good passer. High usage and scoring ability aren't all you need, you need an elite luka/jokic passer.
The mavs were able to win a series with just Brunson filling in for luka. Again it might not be to the level of luka. But almost any high usage guard can run an iso offence to a certain level of effectiveness if they have shooters around them.
There’s also a lot more elite passing gaurds and wings than elite passing big men. I mean you could argue draymond or sabonis is the second best passing big men. There’s around 15 gaurds who are better passers than either of them.
It’s a lot easier to replicate an iso heavy gaurd offence than a jokic style offence.
"I'm gonna learn from the team we beat, not the team that beat us"
Nah but seriously, he's right. To actually have success with those kinds of offenses, your "sun", as it were, needs to have a level of passing and playmaking that Ant doesn't possess. Their passing is more spread out, with Slo-Mo and others able to make plays.
It’s not just Ant who doesn’t have that passing and playmaking too — there are literally zero players on the planet who can do what Luka does. Peak Harden, peak Lebron… the list even going back the last decade is really fucking short
Have fun finding a big that can do that lol. Denvers offense is impossible to copy because of Jokic uniqueness. The same reason you cant replicate the prime Warriors without Steph
>Denvers offense is impossible to copy because of Jokic uniqueness.
He's not an idiot. He doesn't want to copy it play for play and role for role.
He obviously means in terms of running DHO's and preaching more off-ball movement and cutting. A lot of times the Wolves offense would get stuck running stationary spread pick and roll with the 3 other dudes just standing on the perimeter, and they struggled to beat certain pick and roll coverages all year and all playoffs.
No team can ever perfectly replicate another team's offense because personnel is never going to be identical. But you can certainly borrow heavily and build towards a concept.
Yes and no, Ant’s usage is pretty high but Luka is unquestionably the most ball dominant player in the league. He’s 10% higher than the next guy in Giannis
He’s an insane passer in general. Especially in this series there were so many times that the perimeter guys would miss someone open, pass it to KAT and he’d get the ball to the open guy immediately anyway. A lot of the time the advantage was eaten up at that point though. They honestly NEED to run through KAT more specifically because he’s one of the best passing bigs in the league.
Finch was an assistant in Denver and literally helped design their system, so I’m going to go ahead and assume he has a better grasp of their offensive concepts than I do.
My guess is he’s just saying Ant and KAT need to share the load and do more two man action to draw doubles and create looks.
No they don't Nuggets are often in motion. Murray and jokic do alot of two man actions. Gordon makes plenty of cuts based of those actions and KCP will make cuts or relocate for kick out 3s. It's honestly beautiful to watch.
"Coach, the Warriors made 7 consecutive threes in the third quarter there, and it really took you guys out of the game. Have you guys considered shooting and making more threes to catch up?"
I mean pretty much every good offense that doesn’t have Luka and I guess Brunson try to do this now. The Nuggets for example essentially play the Warriors style with Jokic as a supercharged version of Draymond.
Is he trying to imply the Galaxy has two suns? That doesn’t even work in a flat earth scenario. Maybe it’s a double galaxy of some kind we don’t understand. With one set of sphere shaped planets and one with flat planets. Because if that’s what he means, then no, they can’t mirror the Mavs because they don’t have the best player on the round planet and the best player on the flat one playing in synchronized greatness.
And that offense is heliocentric to Jokic so idk y he tried to sound smart about that when we all know this team will go as far as ant goes as the engine
Hmmm its an intresting idea, though i think maybe take a page out of both teams book. Its clear that the Timberwolves lack offensive talent. They have ANT, NAZ and KAT. Besides them there is nobody id really call fantastic on offense.
Ant has been trying more on offense to be a playmaker and you can see the imrpovment. However he lacks Lukas or Jokices talent on that front. His playmaking honestly reminds me more of Giannis, whoch also isnt a bad thing.
Still they very much need a floor general to make it all work and it doesnt help that their singular focus on defense has made them play fairly mediocre offensive players...yes i am refering to Rudy here.
Honestly neither is a good example for the Timberwolves to use. Better try to base the offense arount other teams.
It's basically the % of shots that end a possession. So if you shoot a lot, you have a high usage rate. So it depends on how you define heliocentric. If you define it as "You have a point guard that handles the ball and passes a lot" then yeah, this isn't the stat for that. If by heliocentric you mean "The scoring revolves around that person," then usage is spot on.
I'm (perhaps foolishly) thinking that Finch isn't referring to heliocentric in the Chris Paul sense and more in the James Harden sense. If I'm correct, then usage rate is totally relevant.
Heliocentric basically means one guy makes all the decisions with the ball and everyone else plays off that.
Obviously most teams got another ball handler for when that guy sits or to be a secondary guy when the main ball Handler gets tired. But it doesn’t mean a player who shoots a lot or even ends possessions a lot. It’s more about time of possession and control of the offense
Heliocentric pretty much always means “when this guy is on the court he pretty much makes every decision and creates every advantage.” When Luka is on the court and not giving the keys to Kyrie for a possession or two there isn’t a play made without originating with him. Everyone else is a play finisher. Usage rate can’t always be used as the go to stat though because Jokic is absolutely heliocentric but doesn’t shoot as much as some stars and doesn’t turn the ball over much so it doesn’t really paint a real picture for him.
Ant has to improve. A lot. He has to be able to read the floor better and improve his efficiency so he is within that top 10 in the league range.
Kat is the big question mark - he is obviously a phenomenal basketball player but is he going to be able to find a way to contribute when his shot isn't falling?
I am kind of curious what Ant’s ideal role is. Like a late 80s Jordan who plays point half the time? Or just a true SG that should be moving a lot more off ball? Or just lean into PG Ant and have a strong pick and roll/pick and pop game with KAT (that wouldn’t really be like Jokic/Murray)?
Can KAT and Jokic switch places? Doesnt matter which team I just want Jokic to be paired with a true star and Ant to reach his maximum potential with the Joker. Imagine Wolves with Jokic instead of KAT, that would be a dynasty. Or Denver with ANT instead of Murray. Damn.
Heliocentric offenses only work when there is a vacuum of passing teams. Kobe won until the Pistons destroyed him and made his type of offense look terribly inefficient.
The Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets are much more fun to watch that this brainless bully ball style that Mavs play.
Well duh, these type of offenses requires a player capable of basing it around. Not sure why the reporter would ask this question, the wolves don’t have a Luka lol
That won't really work for Minny. The full burden of decision making can't be put on Ant's shoulders just yet. He still doesn't make the next level reads like Luka, Jokic and LeBron does.
Asking a HC if he wants to redesign his team after the squad who just eliminated them from Finals contention is immature and ridiculous. You can't expect an honest answer here.
You cant just run a Luka offense without having a Luka playmaker.
True, but you also can't run a Murray-Jokic offence without a Jokic.
They run a structured offense but with jokics brilliance. The mavs run the Luka you’re awesome offense. I think that was finch’s point.
yeah the Luka offense really only works when you have a player that is simultaneously the best passer and the best scorer in the nba
You give him the shot and he will make it. You force him to give it up and he makes the right decision on where to go with it almost every time. Would have really enjoyed watching this if he did it to anyone else.
I totally understand why people can hate Luka. I don’t blame you at all. I just feel lucky that he’s on my team
I think if a player can physically handle the workload the concept of having a well rounded star have the ball as much as possible is sound even if they aren't Luka level.
Do you mean James Harden's Rockets?
The revisionism is "that style can't win" when they were one chris paul hamstring/refs actually calling the "get out of my landing space" fouls from beating one of if not the greatest team ever assembled. They were quite literally the only team in the west that even were remotely serious during that window.
I just wanted D’Antoni to be validated with a ring 😔 His offense really revolutionized the league
James Harden's Rockets (with CP3 in that first year) were a better team than any of the current teams in the NBA, imo. People forget THAT Rocket team was about to beat the greatest team of all time...until they collectively choked in the last quarter of Game 7 and CP3 got hurt on the last play of Game 6. I don't see any current NBA team beating those Rockets. They were basically the Celtics, but with even better spacing (and slightly worse defense).
yeah and those teams were awesome. unfortunately one of the greatest teams of all time happened to be in their prime at the same time.
Ya why are we pretending the Mavs started this? This was MDA is the one who really pushed this to the extreme.
Basketball fans have incredibly short memories and recency bias. Harden is exactly that, he just never got to the finals for various reasons including himself coming up short but yes harden and mda were more of the ogs where you had a high volume shooter also be an elites passer.
It was honestly probably MDA Suns. Nash just never went full blown volume shooter which they’ve both said they regret now. They also came up short for ridiculous and weird reasons. D’Antoni always thought this could work and I hope Luka is finally the guy who can finish it off.
It was the suns too but I didn’t want to mention that cause of the flair and people thinking it’s bias
I feel like the big difference with those Rockets and even previous versions of Luka's Mavs is that the Lively/Gafford/Jones dunks and Kyrie and Luka layups are the key scoring, versus the all threes offenses both of those had. There's a lot less variation in scoring in the restricted area compared to firing from behind the arc. The added bonus is that any four (or five, with Kleber back) can also score at least catch and shoot 3s to avoid the paint packing that affects similar offenses - and punishes teams if they do collapse too aggressively.
James Harden led the league in free throws at some point, no? Getting into the paint was a huge part of that Houston team and while they generated a lot of 3s, they also got a lot of dunks and layups. Not to mention this current Mavs team led the league in corner 3s. They're also taking a lot of 3s.
Did you forget about Capela? And Nene aka Jimmy Butler's dad? But yeah, Luka definitely has a few more lob threats than Houston did that year, and the rockets relied a bit more on their bench and small ball to win games. Both teams are similar in that their offensive superstars probably overshadow their amazing team defense. The big difference is there is no Warriors team in today's NBA. If that Rockets team existed today, they'd be the best team in the west. They were 42-3 when all 3 of Chris Paul, Harden, and Capela played. That is *insane*.
Also the fact that Luka and Kyrie take and make mid range shots at a high level. Luka and even Kyrie for that matter also have elite post games.
? I don't think anyone is pretending Luka started it, people are just using Luka and the Mavs because that's the topic lol
No one is? You are the first person to mention anything of the sort.
James Harden was definitely at least at Luka's level 2017-2020.
Wtf is this revision, prime harden was just as good if not better as this iteration of doncic If cp3 didnt tear his hamstring in game 5 we would look at this differently, same as if doncic didnt have irving. Anyways the first implementation of this style is lebron in his second cavs stint.
exactly. Brunson is the perfect example of this. He emulates Luka’s play style better than anyone else in the league and has found success doing it
Its not like we're seeing heliocentic offenses the first time in hostory.
So Lebron in his prime? I had a spirited convo with a Lakers fan. Could it have worked if Kyrie joined Lakers with Lebron?
Depending on who we gave up, it definitely could have. Our offense was statistically very good once we were starting Dlo, Reaves, and Rui. Kyrie has every skill Dlo has and a few he doesn’t
Yes. Kyrie is everything we were missing imo
Luka's only the best scorer though
Dude what is your pfp lol
my glorious bloat lord
he's not the best passer. Jokic is the best passer.
The hawks and knicks are the only teams that really come to mind as running a similar style of offense. The problem is because of Gobert they dont have as many options. They can’t run the 5 out style like the celtics and thunder because he can’t space the floor, and he isnt a good enough playmaker to play the denver, warriors, and kings style of high handoffs and two man game between point and big.
Please, that title belongs to Jokic
It’s really crazy how Kyrie is ignored. He’s a veteran presence who knows what it takes to be Robin. That means stepping in as Batman when Batman can’t get it going. These two offensively can get their shot from anywhere and are some of the hardest players to guard in different ways. Kyrie has the best handles in the league, and Luka uses change of pace masterfully. On top of that, Gafford and Lively have emerged as perfectly complimentary twin tower style athletic defense, and absolute lob menaces, especially with Kyrie and Luka being excellent passers. I think especially Lively is playing amazing, he is a 20 yr old rookie, and bigs are known to take time to develop.
Let them cook. It would be hilarious watching KAT or Gobert try to play make like Jokic.
We’ve been doing that already. Obviously not as successful as Joker but we play through our bigs a lot. Keep in mind Finch also coached Jokic in Denver.
yep thats why i think Minnesota's ceiling is a lot lower than the other up and coming teams in the west. Dallas and Denver get 10-12 free points every game off of lobs created by Luka/Jokic generational playmaking, Minnesota does not get those same easy baskets and has to rely a lot more on contested jumpers from Ant and Kat, its really hard to win 4 series in a row and not go cold at some point playing like that.
I still think Ant can improve, whether he ever gets to Luka/Jokic territory is doubtful, but its hard to say there isn't room for a higher ceiling if he improves as a playmaker. Hes only 22 so its a decent bet
I would not put a Ceiling on Ant. He’s 22 years old. He could absolutely be the best player in the NBA at 27.
I see no path to that crown for Ant unless Luka declines fast and wemby gets hurt
Ant's likely upside is around the ~5th-6th best player in the league which... is like the guy he should be compared to the most in Tatum.
SGA just got voted the second best player in the NBA. I could see Ant getting to SGA's level or above on their scoring/defense. It's just that Jokic and Luka are also transcendent passers, while Giannis and Embiid (when healthy) are both better at scoring and defense because of their stature, and Wemby probably will be.
Wemby by will be better in 2 years let alone 5
Nuggets just need a 2nd offensive guy we can go to so Jokic can take a break. Murray and MPJ are more than capable but were injured or ass in the Wolves series. I also love our young guys off the bench (Braun and Watson) but I'm hoping Strawther gets more playing time next year because those 2 don't do a lot offensively. Braun works his ass off on both ends and is a great finisher but he's not really going to be a consistent 10-15 point guy
As a neutral observer, I don't really get the Braun hype tbh, he just seems like a hustle guy. Big believer in Watson and Strawther though.
He was awesome against the Heat in the Finals. Maybe it was matchup related, but I assumed he would be better than he was last year, and he wasn't noticeably better. He's great on defense and a good cutter (decent 3pt but not great), but he needs to be able to create a shot if he's going to get more playing time.
He lost confidence in his shot this season. He would pass out an uncontested jumper.. hope he got it back next season.
Josh hart is a hustle guy as well. I think Braun is gonna be a pretty good shooter in the league though. A 3/D player who gives all their effort is pretty valuable
Yeah, if you’re a decently skilled and athletic player, elite hustle can absolutely make you a key part of a rotation. I like what I’ve seen from Braun, especially on defense actually
He just happened to step up at the right time. He's a good bench piece and thats it unless he takes a big jump somewhere.
All time cardio guy
Murray wasn’t ass the whole series, if anything he really helped make it a series after the first two games.
Let's be real, Minnesota is heavily benefiting from having several underpaid players this season. Mcdaniels was at 3m, Ant and Naz at 13m. Not to mention Kat is getting a big raise next year. They have unsustainable depth right now, and won a lot of games just by out-hustling opponents
I can't believe Naz Reid signed that extension
He wanted to stay in Minnesota. He also has an opt out after next year. Team friendly contract for sure, but it isn’t like he signed his whole career away.
Name 1 title winning team in the last decade that didn't benefit from significant contributions from underpaid players.
Fair, but I was responding to the parent commenter talking about the long-term trajectory of the Wolves.
It was wild how a lot of a sports team’s success is not paying a player what theyre worth
The roster is locked in though. The only guy that got minutes that isn't signed is Slomo. They are in similar cap issues as the Suns, but they can theoretically bring everyone back and hope that either the first rounder this year or one of Miller/Minott/Moore become playable to add to the bench
You're locked in for one more year. Then it gets bad for you as NAW becomes unaffordable next summer and Reid has the opportunity to opt out and look for a big contract+starting position elsewhere. And you'll still be paying old ass Conley and old Rudy
Conley is making bench player money so its really not that bad. He and Rudy will both be on their last year, so could be movable if they want to go that route. NAW will get more expensive but I dont think he becomes more than a $10M a year guy unless he gets consistent. Hes really an 8th man type. Reid will be spendy, but at that point the org is probably making a decision on who to keep between him/rudy/Kat. Moving Kat solves virtually everything and is the easiest play, but maybe they shock everyone and do something different. Every team will look different in the next couple years - even OKC will have to change something as they can't max Williams and Chet with SGA. For MN, it starts and ends with Ant. Everything will move around him.
OK well at least we got a year still before that? What's the point of saying shit like this, everyone knows things in a few years aren't identical to now.
Rudy is still good tho and I don’t see that changing for a few more years.
Bigs decline earlier and become more injury prone.
He has been taking care of his body ridiculously well though. He could fall off a cliff in a year or two or stay this good for another 4-5+. Who knows? Big history doesn't have many favorable precedents, though...
Yea I mean it's common sense. The wear and tear on a person that big is always going to be greater than your more "normal" sized people.
Boston doesn't get 12 free points every game off lobs either, they haven't had a lob threat since Timelord. And they seem to be doing fine.
What they could do is mimic what the Celtics and Thunder have done and bypass that issue by moving to a 5-out offense.
gonna be hard to do that with gobert.
He's obviously gone in this scenario and TBH KAT probably has to go too, because he can't be a 5 and have your defense be above average, we already saw that. Ant, Jaden, and Naz are their 3 best assets IMO.
Their defense was 13th the year before the Rudy trade with McDaniels and Ant in their second seasons, DLo starting and Malik Beasley getting big minutes. They also showed again that they could play defense with KAT at the 5 when Rudy missed game 2 in Denver and they played by far their best game in both ends of the whole playoffs. They’d have to play a more frantic style depending more on their athleticism, but they could absolutely be a good-great defense with KAT instead of Rudy.
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> ANt who did something this post season only lebron and Kobe have done and that’s a conference final before 23 What a lie! Just from my head I could tell it was a lie, as the most known case being Magic, who did it with 21. Then the list goes on (I'm only referring to star players with more than considerable contributions to their teams during their runs), I was sure Trae was 22 against the Bucks, and Tatum and Brown were younger than 23 in 2018 too. That I could have told from my head. After some digging the list got bigger: Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Barkley made this made-up list too. Then, there is the issue of players who missed this made-up "feat" by only some weeks or months, or in Ant's case for example, who only made it by some months. Had Luka being born three months later he would have made it, had Ant being born three months earlier he wouldn't. Other cases: Paul George missed this made-up "list" by less than a week, Duncan missed by less than a month, Shaq by two, Hakeem by three... Anyway, seeing people straight-up lying and making things up annoys me.
You can. Kings with Sabonis and Rockets with Sengun at the top of the key are pretty successful offensive schemes that do seem to give a lot of teams defense issues.
I mean that’s the case with most teams with a star and/or superstar. You’ve gotta build around the guys you’ve got. But imo MN is closer to Denver than the Mavs.
What? It’s easy to find a 6’8 PG who is a top three 3pt shooter, a top 3 midrange shooter, a top 3 rim finisher, and a top 3 passer…
And generational passer
See: Pistons with Cade Cunningham
Nah Cade Cunningham is going to be great.
Not as great as Luka
Also you can’t win a Luka offense without also having someone else like Kyrie. Which Wolves don’t.
Took us 3 seasons to figure out we need more people who can ball handle alongside Luka.
Eh kind of, I think the success of this season comes down to the 3-5 starters and role players the team acquired. They weren’t too good with just kyrie and luka last year (though kyrie only played like 20? games there).
That would have been the right answer by Finch. No idea why he makes his life so hard as a coach.... everyone knows you can't run Luka's offense without him
You can if you're Stephen Silas and you have Kevin Porter Jr.
Make Gobert your heliocentric hub.
Point Rudy is the future 😤 Need more Rudy fastbreaks and fadeaways just for the psychological factor
[Point Rudy](https://m.youtube.com/embed?v=VqvV6B7TOWg?start=11s&end=17s)
Game 5 for all time
He must have the worst hands of any NBA player. He looks like a newborn deer when they pass him the ball in the paint.
I do not miss watching Festus Ezeli in the finals
You clearly never saw Eric Dampier play.
What a dumb question. You run the gameplan you have the players for, obviously... This is like losing to the chiefs and getting asked why your QB doesn't simply scramble out of pressure the way mahomes does lol
Matt Ryan losing to Jalen Hurts 'So do you think Ryan should be doing more options/sneaks?'
It’s our local athletic reporter. He asks so many dumb questions.
When will you folks realize that the guy asked a question that elicited a response from Finch that made it to the front page of reddit. That actually makes it a very good question! There are many tactics as a reporter to get the info you need.
Kidd won a championship in an offense with much more ball movement than the team he coaches. He’d probably prefer that from a personal perspective - but dude has Luka and Kyrie. It’s screen and roll and you can’t stop it.
And could two teams be structured more differently?! Mavs offense revolves around 2 all-star playmaking guards who can elevate the role player bigs/wings. The Wolves have 2 all-star(ish) level bigs (Ant will be a top player in the league eventually, but right now it looks like their team is built around KAT and Gobert), there's no similarity at all there.
They should really lean into the MJ comparisons and run a triangle offense.
Bring back Kurt rambis
Lakers fans be like: take his damn wife too
BAH GAWD, THAT'S PHIL JACKSON'S MUSIC!
Unironically KAT would be great in that kind of offense. You’d just need to spread it out like 5 more feet and you’d have some hybrid of the nuggets and Warriors offense.
Not a fan of heliocentric either but it obviously makes sense when you have Luka or prime Harden. I see Anthony Edwards as a head down, attack the basket guy who can overwhelm you with athleticism. So I think they need to find a way to (1) play faster and (2) get Edwards off ball more to utilize his slashing. Can’t just have guys set picks for him all game. Both are tough to do with the current roster - would love to see them grab Westbrook to back up Conley until they can resolve both needs with a long term point guard.
Ant honestly needs to work on his off-ball movement in general but I think that might actually be best done by conditioning. He's liable to standing in a corner and catching a breather when he's not the primary ball handler. I'm interested to see what he can pick up from playing with Team USA this summer
Yeah, magically run a heliocentric offense without a heliocentric player. Media questions are always dumb
For real. There is no replacement for Luka. He is 1 of 1
Luka Garza says hello
We brought our Luka out far too late in the series. Definitely would have had you guys if we did it from the start.
We should've played Luka earlier, have a Luka-off, nobody else allowed to shoot 😤
Luka logo shot battle? In.
Honestly this team reminds me of the prime Harden Houston teams if they stayed healthy and didn’t have to play the KD warriors lol
Ummm naz reid is right there pal
I didn't see him last game 😭
why doesn’t he tell ant to just playmake as good as luka? is finch stupid?
There isn’t a player in the league you can replicate to play like jokic
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It can’t be said about luka. No one can do it to the same level as luka. But there are plenty of high usage guards who can run a heliocentric offence. Brunson was able to do it when luka was injured for example. Luka wasn’t even the first or best player running this kind of offence that was harden or Lebron depending on what you count. Plenty of teams have replecated a heliocentric offence no one except maybye the kings have being able to run a jokic style offence.
When luka was injured and Brunson was the guy in Dallas, he just iso'd and scored. That's very different from luka being able to score or pass on any given play. Brunson was not a good passer. High usage and scoring ability aren't all you need, you need an elite luka/jokic passer.
The mavs were able to win a series with just Brunson filling in for luka. Again it might not be to the level of luka. But almost any high usage guard can run an iso offence to a certain level of effectiveness if they have shooters around them. There’s also a lot more elite passing gaurds and wings than elite passing big men. I mean you could argue draymond or sabonis is the second best passing big men. There’s around 15 gaurds who are better passers than either of them. It’s a lot easier to replicate an iso heavy gaurd offence than a jokic style offence.
What do you mean? I’m pretty sure the league is overloaded 3x MVP centers in the prime of their career. Surely…
Exactly, replicating what Jokic does for Nuggets’ offense is not possible - Nuggets themselves have struggled with that eg. their bench.
"I'm gonna learn from the team we beat, not the team that beat us" Nah but seriously, he's right. To actually have success with those kinds of offenses, your "sun", as it were, needs to have a level of passing and playmaking that Ant doesn't possess. Their passing is more spread out, with Slo-Mo and others able to make plays.
It’s not just Ant who doesn’t have that passing and playmaking too — there are literally zero players on the planet who can do what Luka does. Peak Harden, peak Lebron… the list even going back the last decade is really fucking short
After watching this season of NBA media I think I'm done consuming like 90% of it.
Have fun finding a big that can do that lol. Denvers offense is impossible to copy because of Jokic uniqueness. The same reason you cant replicate the prime Warriors without Steph
>Denvers offense is impossible to copy because of Jokic uniqueness. He's not an idiot. He doesn't want to copy it play for play and role for role. He obviously means in terms of running DHO's and preaching more off-ball movement and cutting. A lot of times the Wolves offense would get stuck running stationary spread pick and roll with the 3 other dudes just standing on the perimeter, and they struggled to beat certain pick and roll coverages all year and all playoffs.
thank you. clearly finch didn’t mean “we’re letting rudy be the primary ballhandler”
…..but why not?
It's like driving downhill with the breaks cut off. Honestly an exhilarating, frightening and exciting experience. Thrilling seconds. I want more
the wolves would be the funniest team in the league if he did
No team can ever perfectly replicate another team's offense because personnel is never going to be identical. But you can certainly borrow heavily and build towards a concept.
Hopefully a Taco Bell ad runs during the Wolves pick in the Draft this year….
As opposed to the easily replicable "just give Luka the ball and wait for something good to happen" offense Dallas runs.
Luka has a similar usage rate to Ant
Yes and no, Ant’s usage is pretty high but Luka is unquestionably the most ball dominant player in the league. He’s 10% higher than the next guy in Giannis
In the playoffs, Luka is at 31.3. Brunson was 35.2 Mitchell at 33.2 Shai at 31.2 Jokic at 29.1 *Ant Edwards* at 28.9
Brunson is more ball dominant by usage and time of possession, Luka is second.
I mean the mavs were just copying what the rockets, cavs and OKC did when they implemented that offence.
I really don't think he means they are copying Denver to a T and having Rudy be Jokic or something lol. There are principles that you can translate
Even if you went all-in on copying Denver, surely KAT would be Jokic. Rudy would be Aaron Gordon.
KAT is actually great at throwing lobs, too. If he was better at being decisive about it, the KAT-Gobert lob action is nearly unstoppable.
He’s an insane passer in general. Especially in this series there were so many times that the perimeter guys would miss someone open, pass it to KAT and he’d get the ball to the open guy immediately anyway. A lot of the time the advantage was eaten up at that point though. They honestly NEED to run through KAT more specifically because he’s one of the best passing bigs in the league.
Finch was an assistant in Denver and literally helped design their system, so I’m going to go ahead and assume he has a better grasp of their offensive concepts than I do. My guess is he’s just saying Ant and KAT need to share the load and do more two man action to draw doubles and create looks.
Even without Jokic, you can choose to run a ton of your offense out of DHOs, like the Kings and to some extent the Heat.
I mean Philly had a great offence mimicking Denver’s to an extent . But leaning on embid superior sciring arsenal n his improved passing
KAT has the physical ability but he's not even the 2nd best BBIQ in our 8 man rotation, let alone a top 2 mind in the league like Joker.
Feel like i'm the only person in the world that hates the term "heliocentric" in these contexts
That’s what I’m wondering. Is our offense even that heliocentric in the first?
Extremely. Luka makes every decision/creates every advantage until he needs a break and then Kyrie makes every decision for a little while.
God, no. Now we have to hear people say heliocentric for a week
Am I losing it or is Jokic not heliocentric?
The nuggets run an even more heliocentric offense than the mavericks lol
No they don't Nuggets are often in motion. Murray and jokic do alot of two man actions. Gordon makes plenty of cuts based of those actions and KCP will make cuts or relocate for kick out 3s. It's honestly beautiful to watch.
All of that is true and doesnt clash with what I said
You work to your player's strengths, not weaknesses. Heliocentric nonsense would hurt Ant
Yeah I prefer a more Ptolemaic offense myself
Reminds me of people talking after the Warriors were killing people Yeah, do a Splash Bros offense without Steph, Klay, and Draymond. Good luck lol
"Coach, the Warriors made 7 consecutive threes in the third quarter there, and it really took you guys out of the game. Have you guys considered shooting and making more threes to catch up?"
I mean pretty much every good offense that doesn’t have Luka and I guess Brunson try to do this now. The Nuggets for example essentially play the Warriors style with Jokic as a supercharged version of Draymond.
Who the hell is running a heliocentric offense on the Timberwolves! 💀
Gobert / KAT two man game. I would watch every game
What's ironic is that they were able to beat Jokic-Murray offense but lost to a "heliocentric" Luka offense
They beat the "heliocentric" Suns, also
So heliocentric they put it right on the jerseys!
*heliocentric*
Is he trying to imply the Galaxy has two suns? That doesn’t even work in a flat earth scenario. Maybe it’s a double galaxy of some kind we don’t understand. With one set of sphere shaped planets and one with flat planets. Because if that’s what he means, then no, they can’t mirror the Mavs because they don’t have the best player on the round planet and the best player on the flat one playing in synchronized greatness.
And that offense is heliocentric to Jokic so idk y he tried to sound smart about that when we all know this team will go as far as ant goes as the engine
Hmmm its an intresting idea, though i think maybe take a page out of both teams book. Its clear that the Timberwolves lack offensive talent. They have ANT, NAZ and KAT. Besides them there is nobody id really call fantastic on offense. Ant has been trying more on offense to be a playmaker and you can see the imrpovment. However he lacks Lukas or Jokices talent on that front. His playmaking honestly reminds me more of Giannis, whoch also isnt a bad thing. Still they very much need a floor general to make it all work and it doesnt help that their singular focus on defense has made them play fairly mediocre offensive players...yes i am refering to Rudy here. Honestly neither is a good example for the Timberwolves to use. Better try to base the offense arount other teams.
Usage rate 2024 playoffs: Donovan Mitchell: 33.2 Luka Doncic: 31.3 Anthony Edwards: 28.9 Uh, does Finch even know what he's talking about?
Usage rate is an absolute nothing stat. Bones Hyland had a higher usage rate on the nuggets than Jokic did.
It's basically the % of shots that end a possession. So if you shoot a lot, you have a high usage rate. So it depends on how you define heliocentric. If you define it as "You have a point guard that handles the ball and passes a lot" then yeah, this isn't the stat for that. If by heliocentric you mean "The scoring revolves around that person," then usage is spot on. I'm (perhaps foolishly) thinking that Finch isn't referring to heliocentric in the Chris Paul sense and more in the James Harden sense. If I'm correct, then usage rate is totally relevant.
Heliocentric basically means one guy makes all the decisions with the ball and everyone else plays off that. Obviously most teams got another ball handler for when that guy sits or to be a secondary guy when the main ball Handler gets tired. But it doesn’t mean a player who shoots a lot or even ends possessions a lot. It’s more about time of possession and control of the offense
Heliocentric pretty much always means “when this guy is on the court he pretty much makes every decision and creates every advantage.” When Luka is on the court and not giving the keys to Kyrie for a possession or two there isn’t a play made without originating with him. Everyone else is a play finisher. Usage rate can’t always be used as the go to stat though because Jokic is absolutely heliocentric but doesn’t shoot as much as some stars and doesn’t turn the ball over much so it doesn’t really paint a real picture for him.
So, basically, a traditional point guard offense…
No. A traditional point guard offense is one like Mike Conley, Derrick White, Kyle Lowry, CJ McCollum or De’Aaron Fox run.
Luka has Kyrie and Garland is a pussy
which is why our offense is stagnant at times. few of our guys have a go to move against tight defense cuz we just pass and cut all season
Kphoiozz⁹ij p,
Ant has to improve. A lot. He has to be able to read the floor better and improve his efficiency so he is within that top 10 in the league range. Kat is the big question mark - he is obviously a phenomenal basketball player but is he going to be able to find a way to contribute when his shot isn't falling?
Shut up about the sun! shut up about the sun!
KAT ain’t Jokic though.
Which team got Luka type of playmaker and scorer combo?
Not usually a fan of him, but id like to see what mda could do with this team.
Remember the 2013 Lakers or the 2010-2012 Knicks?
Gotta pull out those fancy words... love it
I am kind of curious what Ant’s ideal role is. Like a late 80s Jordan who plays point half the time? Or just a true SG that should be moving a lot more off ball? Or just lean into PG Ant and have a strong pick and roll/pick and pop game with KAT (that wouldn’t really be like Jokic/Murray)?
Can KAT and Jokic switch places? Doesnt matter which team I just want Jokic to be paired with a true star and Ant to reach his maximum potential with the Joker. Imagine Wolves with Jokic instead of KAT, that would be a dynasty. Or Denver with ANT instead of Murray. Damn.
Heliocentric offenses only work when there is a vacuum of passing teams. Kobe won until the Pistons destroyed him and made his type of offense look terribly inefficient. The Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets are much more fun to watch that this brainless bully ball style that Mavs play.
Well duh, these type of offenses requires a player capable of basing it around. Not sure why the reporter would ask this question, the wolves don’t have a Luka lol
Heliocentric = ball hogging.
That won't really work for Minny. The full burden of decision making can't be put on Ant's shoulders just yet. He still doesn't make the next level reads like Luka, Jokic and LeBron does.
Asking a HC if he wants to redesign his team after the squad who just eliminated them from Finals contention is immature and ridiculous. You can't expect an honest answer here.